Vuori Snow, Patagonia’s Paradox & Goodbye Gorewear

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Rock Fight: Outdoor Industry & Adventure Sports Commentary
Episode: Vuori Snow, Patagonia’s Paradox & Goodbye Gorewear
Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Colin True
Guests: Owen Comerford, Producer Dave

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Overview

This episode brings unfiltered, campfire-style discussion to outdoor industry news—no sacred cows spared. The team takes on Vuori’s debut in snow sports apparel, Patagonia’s complex “impact report” and subsequent backlash, industry-altering tariffs, and the discontinuation of the Gorewear brand. Add in sharp asides, memorable quotes, and plenty of humor, and you get a candid look at the triumphs and missteps shaping outdoor culture and business in late 2025.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Functional Fabric Fair Recap & Industry Vibe

[06:12 – 14:36]

• Owen recaps the Functional Fabric Fair in Portland: Felt bigger, more energized, ~20-25% more exhibitors, new layout focusing on sustainability and innovation.
• The blend of retro and next-gen materials stood out (“A mix of beakers and tufts of natural things, spindles and dowels…a blend of future and kind of past.” – Owen, [10:48]).
• OG insulation brands are re-upping their presence: Thermore’s classic inflatable igloo on full display, 3M pushing Thinsulate and Scotchgard, PrimaLoft making strong marketing moves.
• PrimaLoft specifically is praised for upping its marketing game and committing to sustainability via their Rerun program: “Taking apparel waste…down to the molecular level and remaking new fibers” ([13:11], Owen).

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2. Tariff Watch: Political Deals & Industry Impact

[14:36 – 20:25]

• New Trump administration deal with China lowers some tariffs, but the “average” number (47%) is misleading—real reductions are modest and complicated by layers of overlapping tariffs.
• Brands are shifting sourcing from China to other parts of Asia, Central and South America, but the supply chain is in upheaval.
• Tariffs are directly causing price hikes and distribution changes: Astral Designs and Osprey announced price increases, Terramar is exiting specialty retail distribution ([17:10]). European brands are pulling U.S. distribution or pulling out completely.

Quote:
“It’s not shocking…I’ve been saying for a while that we’ve seen some price increases, but the big ones are going to hit this spring.” – Producer Dave, [17:44]

• Projections: Q2 2026 will likely see negative-to-flat sales growth, but unit sales may drop double digits. Advice: Brands need an ATS (At Once) strategy to handle the uncertainty ([20:25]).

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3. Patagonia’s Paradox: Transparency Meets Backlash

[21:09 – 29:40]

• Patagonia releases its first “impact report” since the company was “sold to the earth.” Key numbers: $1.5B in annual revenue (61% US sales), $180M in profits since 2022 for the Holdfast Collective.

• The report is laudably self-reflective:

  “Patagonia is a paradox…Our existence seems counter to our purpose. That tension is not lost on us.” — CEO Ryan Gellert ([21:55]) “The more layers of the onion you peel, the more you cry.” — Matt Dwyer, VP Product Footprint ([22:49])

• LinkedIn backlash is notable, with some accusing Patagonia of greenwashing despite the brand’s longstanding transparency.

• Panel finds the criticism misguided: “There are so many other targets that are rightfully justified of your wrath. But you’re going to go after Patagonia?” — Producer Dave, [25:30])

• The very scale and ambition of Patagonia invites critique, but the pod agrees: the industry would benefit if others followed its reporting and candidness.

Notable Exchange:

“I believe the veracity of some of the criticism of some of our better players just to be baffling…If you live on the edge of that, you are probably no fun at parties.” — Owen, [24:10]

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4. Lightning Round: Hot Stories, Quick Takes

[32:32 – 38:56]

On’s “Tariff-Proof” Growth

• On Running’s share price jumps 18%—they’re able to raise prices without hurting demand. “When you’re a hot brand, you can price and people will still buy your stuff.” — Dave, [32:49]

Secondhand Market Boom

• Survey: Secondhand fashion/luxury is growing 3x as fast as first-hand.
• Owen: Outdoor products are built to last, so the sector is ripe for resale but may never fully eclipse new gear. Dave: “It is a tough, tough business. Even the biggest guys aren’t profitable.” ([35:29])

Adidas x Fleet Feet Partnership

• Adidas partners with Fleet Feet (280 stores) to boost their running presence.
• Concern raised: Will key Fleet Feet partners (Nike, Brooks…) chafe? “If I’m a key brand partner…I’d be a little bit ticked.” — Dave, [37:22]
• Nike Town Portland relaunch is run-centric.

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5. Vuori’s Snow Line: Does Anyone Need It?

[38:56 – 45:16]

• Vuori launches its first snow sports line—met with skepticism and a touch of “why?”
• Owen: “It’s the product line you didn’t need…Viori does have a fabric story, but there’s only so much you can do…Still, this didn’t look like anything really exciting. Maybe they’re just the height of norm core here.” ([39:31])
• Colin and Dave question whether Vuori’s “touch and feel” fabric advantage translates to performance outerwear—the launch video seems forced:

  “It feels a little like the founder wants it—he’s front and center in that video. Again, weird video.” – Colin, [44:07]

• Business rationale: Vuori is a top seller in specialty retail, so the line may sell-in well, but sell-through is questionable. Launch may mostly appeal to existing brand fans.

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6. Goodbye Gorewear: End of an Ingredient Brand Era

[45:16 – 49:02]

• Gore (of Gore-Tex) is discontinuing Gorewear after 40 years due to “economic reasons.” The brand never did big business, often feeling like a “hobby brand” but served as a valuable R&D and marketing pipeline ([47:46]).
• “Shows that the market has changed and it’s a hell of a lot harder to make it today.” — Owen, [46:53]
• “Even subsisting is just, you have to really want it to do it. They clearly don’t.” — Owen, [46:59]
• Dave believes Gore simply doesn’t see it as worth it anymore: “It was always a loss lease…the presence was bigger than the actual sales dollars.” ([48:08])

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7. Parting Shot: Sorel’s “Four Bold Steps” Rebrand Video

[49:02 – 56:46]

• Columbia’s Sorel did a high-concept, surreal rebrand video. The panel is confused and bemused: Is it a masterstroke, a parody, or a misfire?
• Dave shares highlights from the press release, filled with alliterative absurdities:

  “Bridging beauty with beast and fashion with function.”
  “Where romance meets ruggedness and myth meets modernity.”
  “Bringing the most style in the outdoors and the most outdoors in style.”
  “A compelling mix of so real meets surreal.”
  ([51:44])

• The execution lands somewhere between “The Matrix” and “the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe meets the Most Interesting Man in the World” ([53:31], Owen).
• The hosts agree they may not be the target audience and, intentionally or not, Sorel sure got their attention.

Prana Left Out?

• Colin wonders why, amid so many Columbia brand refreshes, Prana—the pioneering original of athleisure—is neglected: “They have an authenticity almost no one else does. So, Columbia, come on, man. Show Prana the same love…” ([50:48])

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Notable Quotes (w/ Timestamps)

• “The more layers of the onion you peel, the more you cry.” — Matt Dwyer, Patagonia VP, [22:49]
• “When you live on the edge…you are probably no fun at parties.” — Owen, [24:10]
• “When you’re a hot brand, you can price and people will still buy your stuff.” — Dave, [32:49]
• “It’s the product line you didn’t need.” — Owen on Vuori Snow, [39:31]
• “It was always a loss lease…the presence was bigger than the actual sales dollars.” — Dave, on Gorewear, [48:08]
• “Bridging beauty with beast and fashion with function.” (From Sorel’s press release) — [51:44]

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Important Timestamps

• [06:12] – Fabric Show & Industry Innovation
• [14:36] – Tariff Watch, Deals & Fallout
• [21:09] – Patagonia Impact Report & Backlash
• [32:32] – Lightning Round: On, Secondhand, Adidas x Fleet Feet
• [38:56] – Vuori Snow Apparel Launch
• [45:16] – Gorewear Discontinued
• [49:02] – Sorel’s “Four Bold Steps” Video & Parting Shots

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Tone & Takeaways

In true Rock Fight fashion, the episode is part roasting session, part think-tank, always candid and skeptical but motivated by love for the outdoors. No one is spared from scrutiny: not Patagonia’s transparency, not Vuori’s expansion, not even ad copy writers at Sorel. There’s plenty of industry inside baseball, but the larger takeaway is clear: The outdoor sector is in flux—economically, culturally, and creatively—and The Rock Fight will keep holding its feet to the fire.

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For feedback or to throw your own rocks: [e-mail]

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(End of Summary)

Transcript

[Colin True]

All right, everyone. As the air cools and the trails beckon, Lemz is ready to move with you. They have new shoes like the Trailblazer Mid, the mighty Trail Thrasher, and the insulated Brek boot. Get your Lem's boots to get ready for the season ahead. And attention outdoor retailers listening to us right now. Lem's recently expanded their wholesale sales team. Dealers like the pedestrian shop and gearhead outfitters understand the Lem's difference, and it's now easier than ever for you to get on board and succeed with the best fitting shoe around. Reach out to LEMS today to get in touch with your local rep or head to lemshoes.com to learn more Lems or less equals more.

[Royal Robins Representative]

Royal Robins presents the story of the shacket, the sturdy overshirt of adventure. It begins in 19th century France. Indigo was cheap and stains were tough. And workers wore a boxy blue overshirt for utility, which turned out to be pretty comfortable. The look caught on. By the 1970s, post war overstock had turned overshirts into a new staple with a new name, the Shacket. Rugged, versatile, and forever comfortable. Now leave it to Royal Robins to perfect the shacket. There's a vista, stretchy, breathable and fleece line for fireside coziness. The cloud rests a hemp mid weight that's a base camp essential. And let's not forget the LCAP organic cotton Sherpa line. Canvas tough with a soft side. You too can climb to new heights of warmth, durability, and easygoing comfort with Royal Robin shackets. Contact your rep today for a perfect addition to your shop and Royal Robins. Remind you to stay warm out there, folks.

[Krista (Rock Fight Song Singer)]

Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.

[Colin True]

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and joining me today here to announce the creation of their new lineup of winter apparel, it's Owen Comerford and producer Dave. What are you guys thinking? It was like just classic, you know, insulated stuff. Gonna take it to rei.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Just basically, you know, like a lot of just puffy jackets. I think the world needs some more puffy jackets. Maybe like a really sort of plain shell.

[Colin True]

Have you considered water column on the shell? I think consumers are very generally concerned with water column.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

2020, baby.

[Owen Comerford]

2020.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Maybe a soft. Maybe just a soft shell. You know, just all the stuff that really won't stand out at all in the store.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, I think a good earth toned vest.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yes.

[Krista (Rock Fight Song Singer)]

Right.

[Owen Comerford]

Solid.

[Colin True]

What's the, what's the brand name? The, the produced consigliere. Like what's the.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I don't know. Wow. You would think the brand guy would have come up with a brand by now.

[Owen Comerford]

Dave, for the consiglieria, it's, let me see here, Cannoli. I think that cannoli.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Pretty good actually.

[Owen Comerford]

Wow.

[Colin True]

I would definitely check out the cannoli. I gotta admit.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right.

[Colin True]

The gun leaves a canoli.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right.

[Colin True]

Well, we are going to talk about another brand that has launched a lineup of winter apparel. But first, here's what's on tap this week. On tap. Not on top. On tap here. This week on the Rock Fight podcast network.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Easy.

[Colin True]

Hey guys, everyone. This is exciting there a few times I've said this now, but I think it's the first time I've said this part of the, of the read with David Owen here because are you guys ready to see the Rock Fight live? You can catch me, Shante Salibar and of course our own producer Dave and Caer Owen Comerford at the running event on Wednesday, December 3rd. We're going to be doing over baby.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Take it over the outdoor industry. We're taking over the running event.

[Colin True]

We'll be doing a live taping of the Rock Fight in the training camp theater, which is on the Switchback side of the event. If you were at Switchback Spring, you know how much fun we're going to have. I hope we see all of you listening to this in San Antonio. If you weren't coming to the running event before, now you have a reason to. So we hope to see you there.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Right this Thursday.

[Colin True]

You're also going to get an all new episode of Gear Abby with the aforementioned Shantae Salibar, who answers all of your burning outdoor questions. So write into her at dear gear abbyail.com and then on Friday come back for our third conversation this week that we recorded at GOA Connect a few weeks ago. Our guest this week is Topo Athletic founder Tony Post. We had Amy Beck last week. Tony Post is this week. They'll have one more conversation after that. And lastly, we want to hear from you. Email [e-mail] Are you pissed off at us? You got some rocks to throw back at us? Send us an email myrockfight gmail.com we'll read them on the air and then tell you why you're wrong. Because that's, you know, part of the deal around here.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

That is what we do. Yeah.

[Colin True]

All right, guys, we have a lot to get to today, but before we.

[Owen Comerford]

What about the. What about the newsletter?

[Colin True]

What?

[Owen Comerford]

What about the newsletter?

[Colin True]

We've never had a newsletter. What are you talking about, newsletter? I did start writing something. As of this recording, not yet sent.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

How long has it been?

[Colin True]

Oh, it's been a minute.

[Owen Comerford]

In theory. There's a newsletter.

[Colin True]

I stopped promising things in the programming reminders this week, guys.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Our weekly, monthly, quarterly newsletter.

[Colin True]

Yes. When you get it. Actually, now we should just not write anything. Just send an I'm sorry email to all of our subscribers.

[Owen Comerford]

It's really more of the Rock Fight fortune cookie. Like, I think that's really what we're getting at here. It's one line. It's delivered, kind of random.

[Colin True]

Should we hand out Rock fight fortune cookies at the live event at the.

[Owen Comerford]

I believe we have just figured out our new Patreon effort. It's not a newsletter. It's a one line fortune.

[Colin True]

What's it say there? Keep chucking them rocks.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right. You are not sustainable.

[Colin True]

All right, we do have a lot to get to today, but before we get into it, we need to do a quick check in on some trade shows. Because in addition to GA Connect, which we all attended, Dave last week, you guys, you got to crash the party at Functional. You got the rock fights at the Functional Fabric Fair up in Portland.

[Owen Comerford]

I did. I did. Colin, how'd it go up there twice yearly? You know, it's one thing whenever you get ready for the fabric show, there's just the reality. It's just you're going to be inundated with a lot of booths being helmed by single individuals who have kind of both the look of despair and hope on their face at the same time. But this time, what's that?

[Colin True]

Please come talk to me.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, right, right. Look, I have to say, walking through the door first thing, it felt immediately bigger. Little batter, more trims. Right. You could definitely feel a little energy. I did talk to some people. Evidently, they were between 20 and 25% more exhibitors. And you could feel it. It just definitely the energy. They changed the layout a lot more central, where people kind of move through kind of central areas and they have their kind of meeting places. Obviously, there's the sustainability themed area and a lot more innovation centers. You could just. You could just feel that they were really putting on displays of the different things going on. So I really like that it had a. It had a much more user friendly feel, you know, and so, you know, Kudos to the team for putting that there. But of course, I ran into the guys who run the Outdoor Recreation Archive at Utah State, Clinton Chase. I always look forward to their displays. They have always cool things going on. And this time, they had a cool Wolverine jacket.

[Colin True]

Like the superhero.

[Owen Comerford]

Yes, yes.

[Colin True]

Hugh Jackman. Was that functional fabric, Right, right.

[Owen Comerford]

And no, it wasn't the work brand. Right? No, it was an actual jacket made of Wolverine fur. A real Wolverine jacket. Yeah. The kind that, like, dogs and peas would snarl at you.

[Colin True]

I can't believe Patagonia is using Wolverine for fur. I can't believe it. I'm kidding. Allegedly.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah. It was obviously a classic jacket, but they even had this, like, catalog page that went with it, and it's got this very dapper gentleman in his study smoking a pipe, wearing the Wolverine fur.

[Colin True]

Jack, did you get to see?

[Owen Comerford]

I did. You know what it had? It had the look of the 50s or 60s in it, for sure.

[Colin True]

So 20th century.

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely 20th century. Right. You know, which did make me think of, like, you know, you know, when you've got this Jack, how many men they lost farming wolverine hides, because, you know, those things are like, no joke.

[Colin True]

What's the most vicious animal we can raise? What we can do.

[Owen Comerford]

And it kind of like, there's a reason why we didn't have the wolverine felt era, you know what I mean? It was just like somebody did one and said, yeah, we're done.

[Colin True]

If the rock plant existed in the 50s, we'd be like, I don't know, guys. That Wolverine brand, I don't know. I don't think they got the juice.

[Owen Comerford]

I'm bummed. We ran out of beavers because these Wolverines, man.

[Royal Robins Representative]

Right.

[Owen Comerford]

So that was cool. Again, always love that. We saw our friends at Life Labs who looked like they had a steady stream of going on. And. And like I said, it was just really. The innovation hubs, they really put a lot more effort in the display and presentation of these small companies that are just kind of doing new things across the board. Kind of like a cluster of experimental science meets craft materials meets fabric swatch.

[Colin True]

Oh, and when you hear that we're about to get into some tariff conversations and some bad news from the industry this week. Now, these are the people who are shopping at Functional Fabrics are the earliest we're talking about is 2027 products right at this point, for the people who were there at this show, does this give you a little hope that people are kind of continuing on and that show is growing and there's Some buzz and juice there. I mean, you'd think given what we're about to talk about, attendance might be down at the innovation material show. You know what I mean?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I mean, I think people are looking, always looking at materials. Let's face it, materials is a driver a lot of the innovation within our industry. Plus they're also looking for new sources that are going to help them in their ever evolving supply chain as they move from China to Cambodia to wherever to wherever. So, you know, like I've got some folks that were import, that are manufacturing the US here, were importing from China. Now they're looking to import from Central America, from South America, from Taiwan or whatever. Right. So there's the people are. I mean, I would say the material supply chain is under more upheaval now than it ever has been.

[Colin True]

That's a good point. Were the Chinese suppliers like really empty? Like no one's like, nah, we're good, we're good with you guys.

[Owen Comerford]

There's so many, there's just so many in rows and rows. It would be hard to fully tell kind of the ebb and flow of people. But I did just. There was an energy that you could, that was palpable for sure. So I did see a lot of people doing business and hosting meetings and things like that. I didn't necessarily have a counter and kind of see who was doing it. And of course there's always those eras, those areas, those rows that do just seem like a tumbleweed's gonna roll through at any moment. But for the most part it felt good. A lot of beaker and flasks. Colin, though I have to say, you know, a lot of these tufts of natural things are spindles and dowels like this. So there's definitely felt like this kind of blend of future and kind of.

[Colin True]

Past trying to show the innovation, work with us, we innovate kind of vibe.

[Owen Comerford]

But I think another story that came out of this too was just some of the OG insulators making a presence. What would the lobby of any self respecting fabric show be without the infl. Inflatable thermore?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Igloo.

[Colin True]

Yeah. This is if you know, you know you've seen this.

[Owen Comerford]

That's right, that's right.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I love that. Last year.

[Owen Comerford]

Okay, see, that's right. Okay, see, there you go. And you know they've. Thermore's been around since 1976. I'm pretty sure that igloo's been. Been around since 1977. Okay, right. It's been around for a long time. Second was 3M. I mean, big company makes all sorts of thing. A maker of Thinsulate. They're making an effort to try to bring that back into the front side of consumers, which, you know, they've been in snow sports a long time. Not as well known in an outdoor. And also bringing their Scotchgard brand, kind of a, you know, DWR type of product, which again, branded. And then there was PrimaLoft, PrimaLoft, Primaloft, PrimaLoft, PrIMALoft.

[Colin True]

No, PrimaLoft.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

That's the. That's the sophisticated way.

[Owen Comerford]

You know, we don't talk much about PrimaLoft. PrimaLoft, prime aloft. Right.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

There's no, there's only one M. There's not two M. One M prime aloft.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, it was good to see them. I got to spend a little time with their president and CEO, Anna, was it Cavaza. And she's been in the chair a couple years. And you're just now starting to kind of see the effects of what she's been bringing to the organization. Things becoming more visible. First is their design. Colin, as a polar tech alum, you will be happy to see that they are doing visual storytelling in a way that just feels contemporary, modern material science. I feel like they've kind of picked up that mantle from some of the other ingredient brands. So kudos to them. They were introducing six new products after kind of a long kind of delay, or should just say kind of thoughtful delay before they do that, which six products in the fabric world, I think it's called a shit ton. I think that's the unit of metric. And then they're also leaning into the rerun program, which is taking apparel waste. I think she actually said footwear uppers and grinding it down into the molecular level and remaking new fibers and materials for insulation. And so I think this is just one of those. One of those stories that kind of starts to deliver on that circular vision we all have of really kind of like turning the old into new. I think being, you know, insulation, where structure and all of that has a kind of a place to play in terms of how it traps warmth and all that. There's probably a really a good spot for them here. But like I said, it was just nice to see them presenting again and definitely leaning in, into the marketing story, which, you know, I, I just, I believe that ingredient brands tend to not do as well in terms of being marketing partners for their customers. And primaloft is doing that.

[Colin True]

All right, guys. Well, it's been a minute since we've had a check in on Tariff Watch 2025, which we never did a stinger for. So I'm just going to Dun Dun 2025 tariff watch. It's back.

[Owen Comerford]

And in that, I'm hoping it'll be over by the time we make a stinger. So we could.

[Colin True]

We keep hoping for that. That's what we're hoping for.

[Owen Comerford]

That should be. That's actually it.

[Colin True]

Well, in the time that we haven't talked about it, we've had a new Trump deal with China, as well as some trends starting to emerge from the outdoor industry industry that paints a picture of what's to come. So a few weeks back, the Trump administration announced a new deal with China that lowered tariffs of 47%. There have also been deals announced with Switzerland and several countries in South America. I mean, Owen, is there anything in these deals that's relevant to the outdoor industry that we should probably touch on?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

The 47% number is a little misleading. That's sort of an overall average. Basically, what they did was they dropped the fentanyl tariffs from 20% to 10%.

[Colin True]

So fentanyl's now cheaper.

[Krista (Rock Fight Song Singer)]

Good.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

It's way cheaper. I mean, really. I mean, it's. Yeah. No.

[Owen Comerford]

God.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Anyway, so that negotiated 30% is now down to 20%. But then you have to layer on top of that the section 301 and 232 tariffs. So that's where you get to the 47%, is those other ones. But, you know, hey, it's 10% less, which is a move in the right direction, I would say. For most brands that are still sourcing out of China. And then for the South American thing, I think that's mainly about food, coffee, beef, that kind of stuff, which is interesting because it is a bit of a tacit acknowledgment by the Trump administration that, hey, guess what? Tariffs cause inflation.

[Colin True]

Amazing.

[Owen Comerford]

It's not even tacit. He admitted as much.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

While denying it, you can't admit that you're wrong. That's just not. It's just not in the comments. No, it's not. So it must have been the Democratic shutdown that caused that influence.

[Colin True]

Of course it was.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

But anywho, I think it is interesting, though, that it's showing a realization that people are pissed off about this. They really are. And I think one of the things that people don't even think about from a policy level about inflation, they say, well, okay, inflation is down to whatever, 2, 3%. The problem is that all of that inflation that happened in the past is still there. Right. And so we're just adding on top of it, we're not seeing deflation. We're seeing that that's getting baked in now, especially in things like food, but also apparel, et cetera. So it'll be interesting to see if some of these, this softening extends into areas like apparel and footwear because of the affordability challenges that are happening today.

[Colin True]

Well, and staying with the impact of tariffs, you know. So last week, as it pertains to the outdoor industry, last week, three outdoor brands announced some changes due to the tariff impact we had. Astral Designs and Osprey announced price increases, while Terramar announced that they're going to be ceasing their specialty retail distribution after fulfilling their 2025 obligations, a decision they've placed firmly on the ongoing tariff situation. So what was your reaction to that, Owen? I mean, that's, you know, we're starting to see now some of the things you've been predicting that like, hey, here we go, end of the year, we're looking ahead. This is what's going to happen and it's because of the ongoing tariff situation.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Exactly. This is not shocking. I've been saying for a while that we've seen some price increases, but they're really the big ones we're going to hit this spring. And that's what we're seeing also, pretty much as I had predicted, most of the price increases are going to top out around 10% because most brands basically say, hey, that's as high as we can go without totally killing consumer demand. The problem is in most cases, a 10% price increase doesn't offset the tariffs. So brands are having to absorb a pretty big hit there from a profit perspective. And what they're doing is they're basically, we're seeing layoffs, we're definitely seeing job freezes, we're seeing cuts to marketing and other things to try to offset that internal tariff profit hit. And then we're also seeing changes to things like distribution. In the case of Terramar there, they're cutting the specialty. But also we've got some European brands that are either stopping US distribution or actually pulling out of the US Market because of the whole tariff situation.

[Colin True]

While we were at Goa a couple weeks ago, the increase in tariff impact on brands and retailers was a common tale, common thread that we heard from both sides. Chatting with folks there, you mentioned you've been predicting this for a while. Any updates to those predictions? Anything new that you want to kind of throw out there or you're thinking about as 2025 winds down and we get ready to flip the calendar to new. We're rapidly running out of the middle of November. So we're looking ahead and starting to see these trends. You know, what are you thinking now?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I mean, Q1 as it always is, is going to be a weather story, right? Weather and clearance is, is, is what's going to drive that. The key, as always is Q2. It's, it's, it's our biggest quarter. You know, Q4 depends on where you are. But it's, it's, it's, it's really the outdoor quarters Q2. So I think with all these price increases we're, you know, we're going to see Aurs go up in the mid to high single digits. Okay. Average unit retails, so that's likely to subdue sales. So I think we're going to see sales that are in the negative, sort of negative to flat or negative single digit numbers in terms of top line sales. But if you combine that with the increase in AORs, that means that unit sales are likely to be down double digits, I would say in Q2, which is going to be pretty rough. And I'm not just sort of pulling this out of the air. I'm hearing this from a lot of brands and retailers who are really cutting their preseason or pulling back on preseason or were very conservative going into the preseason because these were, most of these preseason orders were placed right in the middle of Tariff Palooza back in June and July. So yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting Q2.

[Colin True]

Yeah, we've been a bit of a broken record about this, but again, talking to folks at G OA Connect, if you're a brand and you don't currently have an ATS strategy, get on that because that is where the retailers are valuing that highly right now with all of the uncertainty. What inventory do you have? And I'm going to buy it when I need it. All right, let's move on from that. The next story we have, we'll obviously keep an eye on that and this story will continue to unfold and we'll have more to report, I'm sure in the future as this goes. But the next thing we want to talk about today is per sgb, last week Patagonia released their first quote impact report detailing the impact of their quote, business ownership structure and environmental giving. This is the first thing they've released since they again sold the company to the Earth in 2022. Owen, what did you learn about Patagonia.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Looking through this report as kind of the business nerd here it was great to see some numbers because they're a private company, so we don't get to see what their financials are. So we're able to infer that they did about 1.5 billion in sales in their last fiscal year that ended in April. So that's interesting. 1.5 billion. Okay. Also that 61% of their sales were in the US and that was actually a little bit surprising because that would place them as one of the more US centric brands that are out there. That would be right around the same as Columbia, which also is a pretty US centric brand. But like North Face is sub 50%. Arc' Teryx, sub 40%.

[Colin True]

So yeah, Arc' Terix rapidly dropping probably.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Well, yeah, just because of all the growth in Asia. I mean, that's what I mean, it's crazy. The other thing, it was an interesting read right from the opening paragraph from CEO Ryan Gellert, which I thought was very much on point. This is a quote here. Patagonia is a paradox. Our charter mandates that we follow social and environmentally responsible practices, yet every product we make takes irreplaceable resources from the planet. Our existence seems counter to our purpose. That tension is not lost on us. That was really on point. And that tone really, I would say, permeates the whole piece. It's very self aware, it's understanding of those tensions and those challenges. A great quote in here from Matt Dwyer, who's their VP of their product footprint, who was on the pod with Colin. His quote was the more layers of the onion you peel, the more you cry.

[Colin True]

That's very on brand for Patagonia. Right. This is what you would expect them to say about being self reflective on what they do. Dave, you and I were chatting about there has been some interesting backlash that you observed on the old LinkedIn.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, what would be any earnest effort in trying to do the right thing? What would it be if it wasn't met with some backlash? And yeah, I think that's, to me, what's notable of this is not so much of all the. Like I said, it's kind of a media mea culpa in there, which is very on brand, you know, also too. What did I learn? That nothing they do is sustainable. We knew that, but they know that too and they want to tell us. I also learned that the Planet isn't their only shareholder. That it's actually the Chouinard family is still the shareholder. Really? That matters in the decision making. But yeah, I think what you see is the kind of two Camps of like, look, this is the greatest thing in transparency. And it's, you know, they love the tone and like I said, the kind of the self reflection piece, which is clearly needed. But then you've got definitely the greener than thou camp that just is like, oh, this is more. I mean, to the point of calling it greenwashing or that somehow they've admitted to greenwashing and we've caught them in their admission, which is ridiculous because they've been on this.

[Colin True]

They're the most open on this stuff of anybody.

[Owen Comerford]

Right? And they've had the best greenwashing of anybody else. Let's be clear. Okay? Don't buy this jacket, all of that. I mean, I'm gonna give them credit just for doing it really well. I've always find the veracity of some of the criticism of some of our better players just to be just kind of baffling. And again, it's like when we get into these, how do we change the system that we're in? Which is what Patagonia is trying to do, where a lot of these critiques somehow just kind of want to ignore the system and just put it all on the brand or business. And it just shows that why sometimes the edges of our. Or the activists or the look, if you take extreme positions when it comes to how we can realistically change our operations to further sustainability goals, if you live on the edge of that, you are probably no fun at parties. And I think that comes through in your criticism and it helps. It creates this us versus them in a group of people who really have more in common and probably should be working toward a collective goal than fighting back and forth. And what's the best transparency tool or not a victory lap or whatever it is.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

No, I agree, Dave. These sort of. I think it's the greener than thou. So that was a great way to describe these folks. It's just counterproductive. It's like, okay, so we're gonna go after the people who are really trying to do the right thing. We're gonna go after them even harder than we would against somebody. It's like there are so many other targets that are rightfully justified of your wrath. But you're going to go after Patagonia. I mean, are they perfect? No. Are they saying they're perfect? No, they're not. And so I just think that's. So it's just bullshit. And it's unfortunately very common on the left and in the progressive side to actually go more after the people who don't pass your purity tests than the people who are actually doing all the damage on the other side. It pisses me off, quite frankly.

[Colin True]

Now, I'm sure there's people out there who are calling saying the word hypocritical now, based off of our recent criticisms of Patagonia. But, I mean, I think the thing.

[Owen Comerford]

That we're saying, it's evil, Colin. It's evil.

[Colin True]

Well, this is the other paradox, to use Ryan Gellert's words, of Patagonia. Right. They kind of put themselves in this position a lot of times by what they do and what other people don't do. I go back to a lot, the taglines. Their tagline used to be, build no unnecessary product. You know, create solutions to solve the climate crisis. And then they pivoted to we're in business to save the plan planet. And it's like. So it's really. It makes it a lot easier for people to criticize you when you're. When your tagline is, we're gonna save the planet through making stuff. But then you put in a report that, hey, it's a paradox of what we're doing, which it is. So it just opens the door to this level of criticism. Now, it's not fair. Everybody else should always take a page out of Patagonia's book, especially in the outdoor industry, about how they're doing things. They are the role model and that enough of the. Plenty of the other, bigger, the. Their peers are not following what they're doing, and they should, but it becomes this. But now we set up at another outdoor industry circle here, where it's just we're going around and around and around and missing the point entirely of what we should be focused on, which is the meat and potatoes of this report.

[Owen Comerford]

I assume their damn marketers are just too good at it. Right. You make these clever statements, and then it's like, now you have to live up to them and you can't really even don't buy this jacket, which I just brought up. I believe the case study is, you know, sales went up pretty markedly after that campaign.

[Colin True]

Now, the one thing I'll say, and I think, Owen, this gets into a little bit, maybe what you didn't learn is like, my experience with Patagonia was through when Chouinard was still very much with his hands on the wheel. And we had a season where they cut a huge amount of new products that were being developed. And that was in the name of, we're making too much stuff. And this was before they were a billion Dollar brand. And I think some of the criticisms that there was a top line to that, maybe that is kind of what people were saying is like, hey, you're still a one and a half billion dollar brand. If you're going to nitpick something, that might be what the nitpick is like, hey, you're still making a lot of stuff at $1.5 billion.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

The purpose of this report was not financials, but obviously that's what I wanted to look at. So I didn't get to see what you making. Yeah. How much?

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

What are your year over year comps? Right. So my understanding was that they were closer to 2 billion at one point. So I think the 1.5 is probably flat to down, if I had to guess. Also, there's no profitability numbers, but they do say that they've generated 180 million, which I assume would be profits since 2022 for the, the whole fast collective. Right. The Earth Bish. And so if you assume about 5 billion in sales, that's 3 and a half to 4% net income, which is a little tight. I think you've definitely got other brands that are doing a little bit better than that right now. But it is, I mean, it's tight right now out there, I think with Everybody.

[Colin True]

And that 5 billion is the cumulative from 2022.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Exactly.

[Colin True]

That's again making assumptions, right? Yeah, well, I mean, look good on them. I mean, it was funny. They put out a little video. Somebody kind of expecting some criticism on this and applying to it again, private company, they don't have to do any of this. So. Right. They could just keep on doing what they're doing and let people think what they want and it doesn't really matter. So the fact that they put out 140 plus page report kind of detailing what they're working on, that was that, that, that good for them?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Agreed.

[Colin True]

All right, everyone, this one is for all the gear makers out there. You know, the biggest barrier for killer new products is sourcing the right fabrics. Working with mills is a pain and too often you get stuck with whatever sort of fits. What if we told you there was a partner who works with you to design, source and curate fabrics that enhance your product line? What kind of enhancement are we talking about, guys? I mean, is this like, is this chemical enhancement, medical, hormonal, Some big enhancements?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

A lot of enhancements, yes.

[Owen Comerford]

Right, right.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Material enhancements.

[Colin True]

That's the more mature way of describing. Thank you, Owens. That partner is ripstop by the roll rip. Stop by the Roll is your one stop shop for the perfect fabric solution to your next hit piece of gear. These guys handle the headaches and will work with you to develop or find the right solution. From yarn to finished fabric to fit your design, they have the application experts and production partners that make your job easy. From cottage companies on garage grown gear to eight figure brands at rei, they've been around and they know what they're doing. Rip Stop by the Roll simply wants to help you build the best products. If you're looking to source globally, they can do that. You want to find something domestically, they can do that too. If you're ready to learn more, head to ripstopbytherolle.com to connect today. All right, everybody. Fjallraven isn't here to conquer mountains, tame rivers, or beat the weather. We are here to go slowly, to tread carefully and cherish the visit. And for us, the outdoor experience has never been a race to victory. It's an ongoing journey to create equipment and memories that last for generations to come. The mission is to inspire more people to move with nature. And we do this by developing durable and functional equipment that never goes out of fashion. What we really want is to make it easier for people to enjoy spending time in nature on nature's terms. And now, guys, we can do that because we have Fjallraven stuff with rock fight logos on it.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

So.

[Colin True]

So we're kind of ahead of everybody.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I think so. Great.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

And I didn't even know that they had a corporate division. So if you are out there and you want to. You're a company and you want to show off your Fjallraven stuff, hit them up. I mean, they do a really nice job.

[Colin True]

So everybody can do that. That's not special to us.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah, I think they have a corporate. Yes, they have a group that will do that for you. Yeah, absolutely.

[Colin True]

This is our path passion. Let's use our vast experience and competence to help more people feel at home in nature. Because when they do, they'll take greater care of it. Get started on your Fialraven journey by heading to fjallraven.com today.

[Owen Comerford]

That just made me think of a, like a highly trained hit squad of embroidering reindeer that are out there doing the turning these items for him isn't.

[Colin True]

The elves that do the work.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I think it's the elves. Yeah, Please, you guys.

[Owen Comerford]

That's just so dated. You see what reindeer can do these days?

[Colin True]

All right, guys, let's get into the lightning round.

[Krista (Rock Fight Song Singer)]

Lightning round.

[Colin True]

All right, first up in the lightning round last week, shares for running brand on jumped 18% after the brand increased its guidance and showed that the US Market isn't being hurt by recent tariff related price increases. Oh, and on is growing in the US and seems to be tariff proof. How is this even possible?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Well, I think, you know, it shows that when you're a hot brand, you can price and people will still buy your stuff.

[Owen Comerford]

When you sell at that high of price, no one even notices that you raised the price. So.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah, right. I mean, the flip side to that is that it's called pricing power and when you have it, it's great and when you don't, it sucks. And I would say we've got brands in both camps, unfortunately, in the outdoor industry. I think the interesting thing though is with those price increases, about half of this bump was likely from higher, higher retail prices, but the other half was higher unit sales. So they increase unit sales and price at the same time, which is, which is pretty sweet for them.

[Colin True]

I think there's a correlation in airport traffic in the sale of on shoes.

[Owen Comerford]

Right. And Collins, this is for Owen. Owen. So based on their pricing power, do they or do they not offer a discount to sign up for your e mail email?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Well, that's a, that's a good. I think they do.

[Owen Comerford]

No, you're, you're absolutely right. They do 10.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yes.

[Owen Comerford]

Okay. But they're, they are classifying it as a holiday moment, so we'll see if it's seasonal. But they do, they do offer a 10%. It made me dig a little deep. So it didn't hit you immediately.

[Colin True]

But guys, I'm getting the Christmas feels from on. And they're 10% right for their 10%.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I'm pretty sure that 10% was, was there back when I did my analysis.

[Colin True]

Yeah, it was their Halloween.

[Owen Comerford]

It was that season. Yeah, right. They just shift the season.

[Colin True]

It was the summer equinox, summer solstice season, moment, whatever.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, there you go.

[Colin True]

All right, next up, a recent survey of 7,800 consumers found that, quote, the secondhand fashion and luxury market has grown three times fashion than the firsthand market. Dave, I need you to predict when second hand becomes the dominant player for the outdoor industry and new products just fall off a cliff. Are we 10 years out from this? 20 years out from this?

[Owen Comerford]

Man, based on tariffs in this administration, we could be 10 months from this. Are you kidding me? My gosh. Look, I don't think it's ever going to take that place, but seeing a much more Significant piece. Sure. I mean these products are built to last past. Right. So if any sector is going to have a place in kind of the resale over others, it's, it should probably start in an outdoor as well as the fact that we have so much usage occasion for, for our items. Right. Where I need something specifically for this and that's going to kind of store it and use it for that. So I don't know if we're going to ever see the. No the full shift. But I like to think about, I mean nothing beats a musty basement to go and buy used items.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah. I mean from working with companies in the segment, what I will tell you is it is a hard segment to make money in because you've got basically consumers expect to get it for a lot less and it's actually a much bigger pain in the ass to deal with because every item is a unit of one. So if you're selling it online, you've got to, you're buying a specific product with a specific condition, all these other things. It is a tough, tough business. I mean even the biggest guys, you know, aren't profitable. So yeah, I like the thread ups of the world. So it's, it'll be a while before I think it gets there. I did check by the way and on did not have a 10 offer when I, when I did this. My analysis back in September.

[Colin True]

So it is a holiday, boss. There we go.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Nice.

[Owen Comerford]

Okay.

[Colin True]

All right, last lightning round story. Last week running retail Goliath Fleet Feet announced a partnership with the new Adidas that will quote, elevate grassroots events across the country. Oh, and who gets top billing in this relationship? The billion dollar athletic giant or the 280 door run specialty retailer?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Well, come on, Colin, you gotta follow the money. It's definitely Adidas or Adidas depending on how euro you want to be.

[Owen Comerford]

How Prima you want to get.

[Colin True]

Prima.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Prima. There you go. No, it's. Anyway, as I see it, basically Fleet Feet is giving Adidas the ground game to have the presence at key national events like the New York City Marathon, but also then a bunch of local running events. So it's that ground game. It would be super expensive for Adidas to replicate that themselves. So kudos to them for getting in there. To me though, the bigger question is if I'm a key brand partner of Fleet Feet like Nike or Brooks. How am I looking at this? Do I feel a little bit like, oh, oh, okay, interesting. You're hooking up with these other guys. What about us? I'd be A little bit ticked.

[Colin True]

Yeah. And I don't see, I don't. I rarely think of Audi as a run brand. I know they have lots of run product lot people running Adidas, but it's like I just don't go there with it. So I see for them as like, yeah, you're right, it is. They're the bigger brand here. But it's like, hey, man. Like they're, they're trying to. They're almost like buying run market share here. Right? How do we get in with this sort of this entrenched audience? But you're right. What, what does it mean for the other big players at Fleet Feet?

[Owen Comerford]

Should be interesting buying shelf space. Colin. No, say it ain't so.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Really?

[Owen Comerford]

Are you serious? Look, I think that this is a. I think 280 Doors says it all. And that's why. So the other brands might be pissed, but 280Doors says it all. So they're gonna play too.

[Colin True]

They probably would have made the same deal with them if they had offered.

[Owen Comerford]

And maybe they do. And we're just hearing about this one, right? There's enough to go around. And of course they do have, like you said, stronger ground games for their brands. I will just say Nike just reopened Nike Town here in Portland in downtown. So big story of kind of, you know, reinvesting back in the downtown space. But from what I've seen, I haven't been there personally. I've seen people reporting from it and imagery. It is a run centric floor plan. So the main story when you enter the. The new improved Nike Town, it's about run. So I just thought that was interesting too. So really this, the tone for the brand. It's not basketball that you walk into, it's run.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I would guarantee you that Fleet feed is getting paid here. What are they doing right? Like if their standard co OP is whatever 2 or 3%, they're getting double or more, I think to make this thing happen. Yeah.

[Colin True]

All right, guys. Last week we had two brand developments that got some attention. One was that was the start of something big for a big player and one that was the end of an era. Let's start with the new product line as last week Vuari introduced their Snow sports apparel line. According to unofficialnetworks.com, the new lineup of products is called, wait for it, Viewari Snow is offering a quote, new perspective on mountain apparel. Because there's a lot of new perspectives to take on mountain apparel.

[Owen Comerford]

You know, in the 1980s that would have had a whole different meaning it.

[Colin True]

Might have been played out even in the 80s. Dave, thoughts on Fiore Snow?

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, Colin, it's the product line, you know, you didn't need. No, it makes sense. I get, you know, there's a lot detected a lot of vitriol out there from the ski industry for, you know, people seeing that move in and I, I get it. But Vori, a brand like Vori and Snow is also pretty ski industry if you ask me. I mean, it has long had lifestyle fashion brands make items and gear sold in the, the boutique. I mean, so this is. They're just following in the path of a lot of even better known fashion brands to play here. Viori does have a fabric story in my mind in terms of their brand DNA. That's something they do bring. So I would be curious to see what the hand is and what that is, that experience when you get to it, because, you know, there's only so much you can do with your outward facing fabrics and still have legitimate waterproofness, you know, things like that. So we'll see what they do. But you know, overall though, it's very. But see, I felt that way about Vera the whole time. You know, don't, don't ask me to, to rate their stock. It's all been very kind of mid and this didn't look like anything really exciting. And maybe that's what it's. Maybe they're just the height of norm core here. And so that's what this is really going after.

[Colin True]

I do want to talk about the kind of the clunky launch video. We could talk about some of the specifics there. But before we talk about that, I mean, I mean, Owen, do you think, can Vuori win here? I mean, the article on the unofficial networks mentions their pretty successful push into brick and mortar retailers including big chains like REI and Nordstrom. If you're thinking about who that customer is. Right. If they're buying the soft gym products and the things they really like the brand, obviously their lotto valuation was what, like $5 billion. They're really becoming known. Can that translate to a winter sports audience? Is there a Vuori winter sports audience that's out there?

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Well, I mean, certainly, I think because of the fact that they are, I think I said this before for a number of outdoor specialty retailers, not just the Reis, the world World True specialty. Viori is their number one or number two brand right now. Right, okay. So they will, I think definitely get selling into, into those, those specialty retailers. Now, will they get sell through? I think that's A different question to me, I don't know, because the whole viori story is a fabric story. As, as Dave mentioned, the hat, I mean, when you, when you first touched and felt viori, I was like, oh, whoa, this is incredible stuff. Right? And that was why I think it was super smart for them to a brick and mortar brand, because they have to be right. You weren't going to get that online. It doesn't matter how much you spent on a meta ad. It was that initial touch of the fabric that people thought, wow, and then it wore well, the drape was good, all these things. So I think from that perspective, how does that translate, though, into a performance fabric? Right. I mean, you're not going to get that hand. It's about comfort, and that isn't the story. They're trying to sell a performance story with this product. And, and I don't know. That's a leap. It's a leap to make, and I'm not sure that consumers are going to make that leap personally.

[Owen Comerford]

No, but they did make the leap, Owen. They have a skier leaping in a backflip in the video.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Oh, okay.

[Owen Comerford]

Right. Can't you tell?

[Colin True]

Well, it is interesting on the, especially the REI front. I wonder if this is a threat more to those kind of niche brands. Like an REI may have taken a flyer on, like a Wild Rye or a Scenic or a True Gear or Flylo, those kinds of brands. If it's like, well, we're already selling, you know, however many units of Vuori and people are conditioned to now come here and get that kind of stuff for their gym or running clothes or whatever. Well, now, hey, look. Hey. Vuori has a. It's almost like a house line in a way. It's like now they have a winter apparel line. You can go to REI and get their winter apparel.

[Owen Comerford]

You're gonna come in here, complete the collection, right? Just complete the collection. Here's a. Here's a seasonal offering. We'll bring a few pieces in and then remove once the weather turns.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, launching performance outerwear can be tough. I mean, I think back to the. The Black diamond launch back in the day, right? And obviously they weren't in apparel, so this was a whole new category for them. So a little bit different. But I mean, talk about a brand that had huge amounts of credibility in this space, had all the distribution you could possibly want. That was a tough go.

[Colin True]

Yes, it was.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

You know, I think, you know, finally today, I think in their latest results that came out that you know, apparel is a bright spot now. It was over 25% of their total 12 years later. 12. Exactly 12 years later.

[Owen Comerford]

And oh, and they made the critical mistake, mistake of not having a founder talk about their love of skiing and fabric in their video.

[Colin True]

That's okay. So Dave, good, good segue. Because like as much as maybe you can make the case for why this might work, then it's like this feels a little like the founder wants it based off of the fact that he is front and center in that video. Again, weird video. Feels very much like a 2011 Oakley kind of, you know, ski video without the thermonuclear protection.

[Owen Comerford]

Right.

[Colin True]

And it's so, I don't know, we'll. We'll see.

[Owen Comerford]

But we'll see. Look, I think there is that place. I mean, if we talk about the specialty and all that, you know, if I'm them, I'm not even aiming for that. I am just trying to walk that line between core user and lifestyle boutique buyer and D2C buyer. Like I'm a Vori fan and therefore now this is going to be my winter version of that because I already have a closet full of stuff. Right? That kind of idea that's there where they can maybe make a play.

[Colin True]

I mean they might just have you money and they don't care. But this is an expensive thing with not a lot of outcome here. Yeah, pretty sure they do.

[Owen Comerford]

We want to make ski stuff, we're.

[Colin True]

Going to make ski stuff make more sense.

[Owen Comerford]

Yeah, right.

[Colin True]

Well, okay, that changes everything on the questionnaire. Do you have you money? Because in that case, like, well, speaking of another brand that has fuck you money today. It's the end of an era for Gore as the fabric giant announced last week that they will be dropping Gorewear, which was launched as gore bikewear in 1985, and eventually launching Gore Running Wear which then combined to be Gorewear in 2018. So Gore Tex owner Wo Gore and Associates is nearly a $5 billion company, most of which consists of products that go beyond what they make for the outdoor industry. So according to an article in Road cc, a letter to retailers stating that, quote, Gore cites economic reasons for the stre step which is being announced now. After careful consideration and in depth analysis of long term prospects, they are now made the decision to cease operations of Gorewear after 40 years. I mean, Dave, this might be a bigger deal for those of us who worked at an ingredient brand at any point. I mean from your perspective, did Goreware ever really work as a brand?

[Owen Comerford]

Look, I from kind of Me digging around, you know, there was a core audience for this brand. It's not like, you know, been around that long in kind of the space. You know, they provided high end materials at a price that tended to be lower than some of the big, you know, the aspirational brands. Everybody's kind of moving to the high end of those kind of markets and they offered really capable stuff that was, you know, definitely percentage points cheaper. So they I think developed a following, I think from the branded ingredient thing. It's like it doesn't show that the model doesn't work. They were around for 40 years.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah.

[Owen Comerford]

Shows that the market has changed and it's a hell of a lot harder to make it today.

[Colin True]

That's what I'm saying.

[Owen Comerford]

And even subsisting is just, you have to really want it to do it. They clearly don't. What I don't like about this is the fact that having a brand having those discussions with retailers and other suppliers is such an incredible intelligence bonanza for their other side of their business. It keeps you plugged in to so many pieces, so many sides of the industry and trends and consumer. That to me almost a marketing exercise in its own right. And that's the value. So if, as long, I mean, so. But I don't know what their, their outlook was, what they, what they demand from it, from a return piece, but my goodness, there's a lot in there that I think made a lot of sense.

[Colin True]

Oh, and did Moose ever carry Gorewear? I mean, when you were looking at it.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah, more, more as part of our bike, our bike apparel line. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, it always felt like a bit of a hobby brand. Brand, you know, in terms of money comment. Right, exactly. And so, and it was never, it never did any volume. I mean, as a brand within the industry, I mean I, I don't think it did more than $10 million.

[Owen Comerford]

What about in Europe was it.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah, again, I'm just talking from, from my experience in the US market. But yeah, yeah, it just, I, I totally, I totally get why now they're, they're saying we got to cut it just because I'm sure it was always a loss lease.

[Owen Comerford]

Right.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Because the presence was bigger than the actual sales dollars. And so they viewed it as a way to get their latest and greatest materials out there, to experiment, to get consumer feedback, do all these other things. And I think it was just less about moving the product. And as times are getting tough and as Gore, obviously with all the PFAs and all the rest of it is in a tougher spot these days than maybe it was historically. They just, they're saying, well, this is just, it's, it's a, it's a net negative. We just gotta move on.

[Colin True]

All right, it's time for the parting shot. And today's parting shot, like it always is, brought to you by Garage grown Gear. Where you can find the Portland Lloyd Bogle hanging out inside the thermore igloo. Because that's where he's, that's where they have him stationed.

[Owen Comerford]

That's where we keep him. We keep him in there. That's right.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

It's climate control on ice.

[Colin True]

Y New items are constantly being added over on Garage Grown gear. Items like the canuck through bottle, the micro bit micro grid hoodie by Sam Bob, or the insulated Superior Hammock Elite. Great name by Superior Gear. See all of the great new products. To see all the great new products, head to garagegrowingear.com and my parting shot today, I'm talking about Sorel. Okay, so the Columbia owned winter boot brand that apparently did a whole rebrand over a month ago with a video called four bold Steps that happened.

[Owen Comerford]

We discovered this four Bold Steps as like, as an individual steps. Or is it four Bold steps?

[Colin True]

Sorry, four Bold Steps F O R.

[Owen Comerford]

There's not like a four part series of bold steps?

[Colin True]

Thankfully, no. Okay, so now we heard the rock fight. We're a little embarrassed to admit we just kind of found out about the Sorrel rebrand video last week. And after watching it, I believe all three of us have some notes on the swing it took and how successful it was. I believe believe producer Dave is chomping at the bit to add something here. And also credit to our consigliere for coming across it and sharing it with us. But my parting shot isn't about that video. It's a bit of a, hey, Columbia, what gives? Like, where's the love for Prana? Because over the past couple of years we've gotten a rejuvenated mountain hardware, we got the engineer for whatever rebrand for the mothership, and now we have four bold steps, not four. Four Bold steps for Sorel. And meanwhile, we're living in this athletic athleisure, casual gym clothes and tights world.

[Owen Comerford]

World.

[Colin True]

And that, you know, really you can argue that Prana originated. And if you visit Prana's website, you might mistake it for a Visit to the Gap.com you know, Prana was one of the first brands to create what has become like 60% of the entire outdoor industry. I feel like they have an authenticity that almost no one else does. So Columbia, come on, man. Like, show prana the same love you're showing the rest of those brands. So that's my parting shot. Now that sorrel video. Dave, I know you're chomping at the bit. Sounds like. Oh, and looking at the outline, looks like you are too.

[Owen Comerford]

It was.

[Colin True]

It was a special experience, right? It was a special video.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Well, so I found out about it through. Through ciso. CISO article. And the quotes in this article are just chef's kiss. I mean, I don't know if ChatGPT was involved. I don't know if they were written.

[Colin True]

It could be a different chatbot. It doesn't have to be chatgpt.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

So these are my favorite quotes.

[Owen Comerford]

Okay, these are more of a clod accent.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

These are. You're actually. That's fair, Dave. These are much more claudish. So These are actual 4 actual quotes from the article. Bridging beauty with beast and fashion with function. Lovely. Exactly. Where romance.

[Owen Comerford]

What does that mean? Hold on, hold on. What does that mean? That means how do I wedge that in there and not get sued by Disney? Right? That's what that is. Oh, my God.

[Colin True]

Beauty and the Beast.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

These alliterative couplets are amazing. Okay, so let's keep going. Where romance meets ruggedness and myth meets modernity.

[Colin True]

Okay, Amazing.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Amazing. Next we've got bringing the most style in the outdoors and the most outdoors in style.

[Colin True]

Okay, I'm a little aroused. I gotta get that piece.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

And finally, my favorite. A compelling mix of so real meets surreal.

[Colin True]

Yeah.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Wow. Wow.

[Colin True]

No human's ever said these words.

[Owen Comerford]

I did not read the press release with the same detail that you did. And I little disappointed. I'm a little disappointed in myself.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Amazing. That is just some great.

[Colin True]

I mean, they took a swing.

[Owen Comerford]

They did.

[Colin True]

Dave, what did you think of them for?

[Owen Comerford]

They took a bold swing. What was it? Well, we have a lot of them.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

You know, actually, really, in terms of like the. The whole. What we were calling out the.

[Owen Comerford]

The.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

The environmental folks. Are we the same here? Are we calling somebody out for trying to step out of the sea of sameness here?

[Colin True]

Yeah, we are. And we're assholes for it. Without a doubt. Because I think if you want. Hey, look, it's a swing. They took a swing. How did I describe the Matrix meets? What did I say?

[Owen Comerford]

I saw it as more like the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and the most interesting man in the World come together in an eye concoction.

[Colin True]

I'M on board with what it's Sorel. Because you think. Sorel, you're thinking. You're like, you know, winter boots. Right.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, okay, so those that don't know what we're talking about, it is. It's a brand video. It is high on the surrealism. There's a narrator taking us through. There's a bit of Shackleton kind of, you know, and bringing you into this world. And there's a polar bear at his feet. Right. And like, just to bring in the sorrel. And then it's a montage of just highly saturated images, which, again, Sorrell is known for in their still advertising, their print advertising, or their photography. Right. They're very photo fashion kind of setup pie of kind of this. This extra world of kind of fashion and climate. And so it's right into that. In fact, when they move to some of the still photos, it feels very sorrel. But then you've just got this storytelling around it, which is really hard to do. It's one of those pieces. I can't tell if it's a parody that you want to laugh with or if it's serious and they mean it and it's like they don't.

[Colin True]

They just didn't pull it off. Right.

[Owen Comerford]

It's not serious enough and it's not parody enough. But it is, absolutely. You can't not look at it. I mean, there's a little train wreck there, but it is a bold swipe, and I can't. You know what? You. Sometimes you hit it, sometimes you don't. But it's. You know, I love to see that high level conceptual level of storytelling being tried.

[Colin True]

Well, considering we're burning all of our equity we have with the Columbia organization right now, if anybody at Terrell wants to kind of clarify, because it's a good point, I could. You could can tell me that was like SNL style parody and I just missed it. I interpret it as like, they're being very earnest with this. I think I was watching it.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

Yeah, we just.

[Owen Comerford]

We just don't know. Although we're talking about it and we're not the target. Let's also be clear, like, you could be further from the target. So there. This might be landing with folks and they're into it and if they are awesome. I love that.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

No, but I agree, Dave. It's like one step away from moody Old Spice command commercial, you know, I mean, that's right.

[Owen Comerford]

I mean, it ends on a pun. I mean, it just. It ends on a pun. But after hearing the, the quotes from the. The press release. It. That actually fits, right. I like it works right in there.

[Colin True]

So Prana, maybe give us a call first before whoever you know.

[Owen Comerford]

Oh, Prana, it is feeling the little, little stepchild there. All the other brands are getting some attention and some budget. Come on.

[Colin True]

Go.

[Owen Comerford]

Pr.

[Colin True]

They have the most authenticity. Maybe they're. Well, that's not true. They all have authenticity.

[Owen Comerford]

They have a great authenticity that they're just not using.

[Colin True]

Right?

[Owen Comerford]

They're just not using.

[Colin True]

Come on. Where's the Prana ski line? You can compete with Buari.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

That's right.

[Owen Comerford]

Climb, yoga ski.

[Colin True]

All right, that's the show. We want your emails and definitely really would like some emails about this episode. Please send them to my rock plane.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

I think we're going to get some.

[Owen Comerford]

Well, I can't say though, I did. We are going to be lifting that as a tagline. The rock so real meets surreal.

[Colin True]

That's amazing.

[Dave (Producer Dave)]

All right.

[Colin True]

The rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight llc. Today's episode produced by producer day with art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening and here to take us out. He doesn't have a ski wear line. Krista makes as the rock fight fight song and he's going to sing it for you right now. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.

[Krista (Rock Fight Song Singer)]

Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human powered outdoor activity activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock flight. Rock flight, Rock flight Welcome to the rock flight Rock flight, Rock flight welcome to the rock fly Rock fight Rock light, rock light Rock fight Until the rock fight Rock fight. Rock fight, Rock fight.