← The Ronan Levy Podcast
The Ronan Levy Podcast
Building Resilient Teams: Lessons from Elite Hockey w/ Andy O’Brien
01:19:45
Whether you are a big hockey fan or not at all, I thought the beginning of the NHL season was a good excuse to invite strength & conditioning coach Andy O’Brien on the show.He’s worked with some of the world’s biggest athletes and I wanted to ask h...
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- [00:00]
A
The hockey team is kind of like baking a cake. You know, you can't just put all sugar. You have to have all these different things that complement each other in different amounts. And it's fascinating what makes a team a team. You know, it's just people that you could tell would take a bullet for each other. They love each other in a way as athletes. And a big part of it is really understanding and separating the I from the we. And that's been something I've noticed in hockey that actually helps people be healthier in team sports than it does in individual sports.
- [00:37]
B
Hey, everyone. Ronan here. We are just a week away from the start of the NHL hockey season. And whether you're a rabid hockey fan, not a rabid hockey fan, or even remotely a hockey fan, I thought the start of the season was a good excuse to invite today's guest to join me on the podcast. Not because we're going to do a deep dive into the inside baseball of hockey, or I guess more appropriately, the inside hockey of hockey. No, that's not what you're going to hear about in this conversation. Rather, I figured it was as good as any opportunity to talk about one of the curiosities of modern society. That has piqued my interest lately, and that is the changing ethic of sport. One of the most beautiful ideas I've heard in the last few years is that the spirit of competition is not to win, but but rather to elevate the quality of your opponent. Not that you'd see that anywhere these days in modern professional sports, but I encourage you to pause on that idea for a moment and really think about how beautiful and magical and powerful that idea could be to elevate the quality of your opponent. But it seems that that ideal of sport, that ethic of sport, has been replaced with what else but the ethics of capitalism these days? With kids having to specialize in a selected sport at a young age higher acquire every potential upper hand they can get, from trainers to nutritionists to ungodly expensive equipment. I think that's something that we have to look at as a society. And today's guest has been witness to that change firsthand. If you've been listening to the pod for the last few months, you'll have heard his name come up a few times. His name is Andy O'Brien. He is a legendary strength and conditioning coach that has worked with some of the best players ever to grace a hockey river. But as you'll hear, his philosophy may not be what you expect, and it heartens Me to know that there are people like Andy still out there in the world of sport trying to stay true to ideals, maybe bigger and more important than winning and maximizing your contract value. He is also the formulator of quench. So no cheesy quench shill today for me. Andy will do that much better a little bit later in the conversation when we talk about the nuts and bolts of how we put the formulation together. Anyway, enjoy the conversation and remember, use Levy 20 for 20% off. Delicious quench. Thanks for listening. So you and I just returned from Camp Vail in Vail, Colorado, where I guess you we hosted a fairly exclusive training camp for some professional hockey players. First question I have is how do you think that went? Who stood out there as being exceptionally ready for the season, and how are you looking at the upcoming season? Who do you think is good, good from a team perspective? And we're talking about NHL hockey here. Just to be clear, by the time you're listening to this part of the podcast, I'll have introduced Andy as being a strength coach who works with some of the top NHL players and other elite athletes. But because I haven't recorded that part yet, that may not be clear. But just to be clear, Andy is a legendary strength and conditioning coach, amongst other things, to many elite athletes. And so that's why he stopped on here as well as, you know, being a key part of the sizzle team. But we'll get to that later. So, all that said, back to Camp Fail. How'd you think it went?
- [03:59]
A
I thought it went really well. The things that I look for might be different than the things other people look for. For me, it's just. It's smiling faces, enthusiasm, you know, trying to. Trying to accomplish something there that you can't accomplish anywhere else. So, I mean, players can get on the ice, they can work on their skills, they can train off the ice, they can pretty much do that anywhere. But what can you accomplish there? I think the environment, the sort of hand selection of the people that attend the camp, you know, mix of personalities, you know, people that complement each other, people that just enjoy being around one another. And so, and then the execution of it really is just about maintaining an environment where they can be happy and just see that happiness kind of bleed into their training and bleed into the event itself. And it's just such a special place to be. And I thought it went really well. Probably one of the camps that had the most work behind the scenes. Ironically, you know, it just sort of ended up being being a lot of different moving parts by the time it was finished. But then I think it was one of the best ones I've been a part of in terms of just the overall, you know, how the camp came out to be for the players and the player experience. So lots of good feedback. And as far as the players standing out, boy, that's a tough one because there's just so many good players there. Yeah, really cool to see the combination of players. You know, when you have Sidney Crosby, Nathan McKinnon and, and Connor McDavid at an event and then you know, the additional players, you know, Matachuk, Mitch Marner, Sam Bennett, you know, Taylor hall, lots, Matthew Shane, lots of really elite players there. So I think it was just pretty amazing to see some of the skill on ice. I remember, I think the first day I was watching McDavid, McKinnon and Marner on a, on a three on two rush and just seeing what they could do and seeing how much fun they were having out there. It's pretty amazing. I felt like I should be paying to have a ticket to watch what I was watching, so. So it was pretty neat. I think I'm already starting to get some feedback that players feel really good that first week back into camp. Just being at altitude and the pace and the skill level that was out there, I think at that kind of is really the whole point is to give them some momentum going into their season. And I think we've accomplished that.
- [06:16]
B
That's awesome. It's. It's interesting that you flag something that I almost never hear. Admittedly, I'm not very close to many professional athletes or anything along those lines, but happiness and enjoyment being a key factor as a, as a driver, um, is something you never hear. All you hear about is hustle, determination, effort, discipline. Never do you hear for the love of the game. And I think that's, that's, that's really interesting. Has that always been part of your thesis?
- [06:50]
A
Yeah, I'd say less of a thesis and more of just an observation over the years. But the, the athletes, the higher up on the totem pole that you get as an athlete, the more gifted they are, the more kinesthetic they are typically so the more they feel and they're definitely feelers. And I think the, the mood aspect in their day to day environment has a massive and powerful influen on what they do and how they do it. And I think a lot of people, when we think of that, we think of flow state, so we think of somebody just getting into a rhythm and being able to create a lot of momentum with that rhythm. And these are just such motivated and determined people. But that mood factor really plays into what they can accomplish on a day to day basis. And so when they're enjoying it, and usually when all the pieces are there, they could just lose themselves in the craft and very few distractions and very few limitations. You know, they can get into that state. And then when it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 people, you know, we're really, really gifted, you know, all getting into that flow state at the same time, it gets pretty electric. And so there is sort of an environmental aspect that you're trying to accomplish. And I, for me, that's kind of where my mind goes.
- [08:06]
B
Is that something you try and cultivate in the players you work with as well? Just reminding them to find the love of the game? And I, you know, I'll share this anecdote which is early on, when we started field trip, I had met a buddy of mine, Dan Poneman, who was an agent to a lot of NBA athletes. And we connected because he was interested in the psychedelic space, but also because he had a player named Tyrell Terry, who was struggling. He was, I think, a second year or a third year NBA player and he was struggling because he had lost the love of the game and suffered intense anxiety. And so Dan's hope was to have him come to field trip, go through our ketamine assisted therapy and kind of work through the anxiety to get ready for the NBA season. And long story short is Tyrell went through it and came out the other side and came out more convinced than ever that he didn't want to be an NBA player and enrolled in Stanford. And you know, to some, they may look at that as a failure of the therapies we're offering, but I actually think of that as a, that someone can look fame, fortune, money in the eye and say like, nope, not going to do it, not for me. And, and so, yeah, I think the love of the game and that flow state and being able to get into it is, is critical. And so beyond encouraging your, your clients to do that, is there, are there ways that you help them do that or you just kind of let that roll naturally?
- [09:40]
A
Yeah, it's pretty interesting. There's probably a couple of ways you can accomplish that. I think balance is one. So just making sure that, that, you know, whether it's rest time off, you know, whether it's balancing out your activities with the seriousness of your preparation with some laughter, you know, and some, some time away. You know, it's amazing how I've been around athletes who are really struggling, you know, where they are mentally and physically. And then, you know, a weekend of some, you know, social activity or whatever it might be, family, friends coming in to visit, and then they seem really renewed, and you see that. That kind of renewed mindset instantly transfer over into what's happening physically for the athlete. So there's. There's definitely, I think, just some life balance that goes into that. We've also seen this with players that have children, you know, that kind of, you know, introduces something in their life that's. That's more important than all of a sudden, this kind of thing that they've been pursuing their whole life. And amazing how that just lends perspective. And it typically is a huge boost in their performance when that happens.
- [10:48]
B
Interesting.
- [10:48]
A
Yeah, you would think it. You think it would take away, but. But in many cases, it. It. That kind of renewed perspective ends up lending itself to just a bit of gratitude for the opportunities that they have and sort of reframes what they're doing. And I think the other part of it is, you know, helping people just compartmentalize things and helping them on the mental side to. To recognize that, you know, who they are as a human being is separate from who they are as an athlete. It can be really difficult, I think, when you're just immersed in it, to separate those things, because, you know, ultimately the way people see you is they see you and the way they react to you and treat you, and it's all based on who you are as an athlete. And so having people in your life that are first and foremost in your life separately, whether that's family or friends that you've had over the years, sometimes it's hobbies, you know, golf, you know, something tennis, maybe something that you're not a superstar at. I think just having an aspect of life that allows you to compartmentalize and separate those two things.
- [11:57]
B
And so I've had Jordan Shallow, our mutual friend, on. On the podcast, and he talked about how he, you know, and that when. When he was more actively practicing chiropractic, kind of acted like the bartender, you know, just being that place where people could emote briefly with no fear of shame or loss of privilege. I get the feeling that in the role of, you know, strength and conditioning coach, you probably see a lot of that as well. Is that true?
- [12:25]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think all strength coaches see that we're probably of all the people that are in the support circles of an athlete, you're with them on a day to day basis. And certainly in team sports it comes up a lot because, you know, you're ultimately part of a team. So you don't get your coach in a one on one environment. So your strength coach is sort of that default person that you get one on one. If you compare that to something that's more of an individualized sport, gymnastics, figure skating, swimming, tennis, whatever that might be, I think you see the, the head coach of that individual very often, you know, plays a strong role as the bartender at times. And those are complex roles as well, because you're ultimately sort of a mentor. You know, you're, you're a guide and somebody who's providing leadership and instruction at the same time. You need to be a listener and sort of an empathetic position in their life at times. So I think when you're coaching, there's a strategic component and there's an understanding of the sport and what you're trying to do physiologically. But then there's also just the fact that you're coaching a human being. And so, you know, I think so much of what's happening with the human being is going to dictate your approach, your style, your communication. And sometimes for me, the way this shows up is just, you know, random things that come up at unplanned times. You know, it could be between sets of an exercise, it could be before you start, it could be after you finish. Just different things come out. Because I think the athletes are pouring their hearts out in their training and so it's natural for that, those conversations to come up time and time again. We call them hot stoves at times. You know, we, we just, it's like sitting around a fireplace, you know, just, just talking about anything and everything.
- [14:13]
B
Yeah, no, that's awesome. You know, in part, the thesis behind this podcast is to have a little bit of hot stove with people. Right. I was at an event in January and, and it was a retreat, a mental health retreat, non psychedelic mental health retreat. But a lot of the activities would be something you'd see in a psychedelic retreat as well. At the end of every day, there's something we called council and it was kind of like replacing the campfire or the hostel of experience. Not the campfire, but sitting around the fire that we would have, you know, thousands of years ago when we were less, you know, not quite as comfortable in our living environments. And sitting around the fire at the end of the night was what everyone did to share and connect and, and we've lost that in society. So, you know, this is a little bit of a way to do that. I have a lot of questions, but I'm just going to go with what's alive right now. So you talked about how, you know, the players get seen as one thing and who they are as another thing. And it's interesting. So at dinner in Vail, I was sitting beside Chris Mannering, AKA Coach Chippy, who's got a pretty big following. He's not an NHL athlete, but he definitely has a, I guess a pretty big voice on what's happening in hockey, at least from a comedic perspective. And he was commenting how, you know, when people approach him, people recognize him, they expect Coach Chippy, but in real life he's Chris. And there's a big disconnect. You know, this is a kid who's, he's going to come on the podcast. I shouldn't call him a kid, but he's a young, younger man than me, you know, who went down the street and narrow path and then screw, said screw this and, and started doing the Coach Chippy stuff and has had a lot of success, but he struggles with that, that disconnect between who people expect him to be and who he actually is. And so the questions I have is, and we see this in many ways with entrepreneurship and I'm sure with hockey, which is like people are striving for success and then they hit a pinnacle of success, whether that's selling a business or making the NHL or winning a Stanley cup and then flipping onto the other side of it. And so I guess there's kind of three components to this question, which is who are the players? Or what are the characteristics of the players who handle that dichotomy between who they are as a player and who they are as a person most effectively? Do you see any traits? Are there any insights? Second question, I'll try to remember these, because you don't have to, and I should, is how do you keep people motivated, you know, as a, as, as the bartender, so to speak, and in their lives, in many cases, like once they've won the cup, you know, you've hit that. There's got to be some sort of follow, psychological, spiritual follow up, being like, okay, I've done this, now what? And how do you keep that motivation going? And then the third question is, how do you, as a guy behind the scenes, you know, for all the limelight these guys get, manage that as well? Because I'm sure at times, maybe not for you, because you seem so goddamn grounded all the time. But, like, doesn't a little bit of envy start to percolate up being, like, why do they get all the attention? Like, when I'm, you know. You know, I'm sure it's very much like the woman behind the man story or the strength coach behind the athletes. How do you. How do you manage that personally? So lots of questions in there, and I'll try to remember them if we get off track.
- [17:37]
A
Yeah, we can. We can kind of tackle those one at a time. But I would say, really interestingly, I've noticed with a lot of the athletes, it's. It's a very natural thing, the moment you win, to just want to win again. Right. And. And I'm not competitive to the level of some of the athletes that I work with. I mean, I'd say I am competitive. I played multiple different competitive sports throughout my life. I love sports. But one of the things that really separates the true. The goats or the elites of the elites is they're just competitive at a different level than everybody else. And so I've really seen being around some of these top athletes, winning just leads to wanting to win again and wanting to repeat it. And sometimes that comes from their own competitive drive to win, and sometimes it comes from just the. How amazing the experience is, like winning with your teammates and winning with the people around you and just experiencing that and then wanting to push forward and experience more of it.
- [18:36]
B
Right.
- [18:36]
A
So I think there's. That part, to me, is pretty amazing. And I've definitely been there in the trenches with some athletes, won a championship, and pretty quickly, you know, literally, like, moments after we have to win again, you know, it just kind of goes immediately to that. So I was always amazed by that. Whereas my tendency is like, all right, you know, we. We've won, so now, you know, let's. Let's enjoy that for a while, or let's just kind of coast here for a little bit and. And settle down before we can get focused on that next one that I've really noticed that that comes very naturally to a lot of athletes. As. As far as, like, some of the. I think the. The other question was sort of the envy question that you were talking about that you left off on.
- [19:18]
B
Well, yeah, there's that one. And then, like, for the players themselves, which is, do you see them being effective at managing their external Persona and their internal Persona? And are there any factors that you see that equip someone to handle that better or. Or worse? Like, how do you. How do you help them navigate that as well, assuming that you, you know, effectively act as a therapist as well as a strength and conditioning coach. And that's for you personally as well. On the other side, being behind the.
- [19:48]
A
Scenes, it's a really good question. Being around hockey so much, it's, it's kind of fascinating because a hockey team is kind of like, it's kind of like baking a cake. You know, you can't just put all sugar. You have to have all these different things that complement each other in different amounts. And it's fascinating what makes a team a team because I've been around teams where you just have to stand in the room and you say, well, that's a team. It's just people that you could tell would take a bullet for each other. They love each other in a way as athletes. And it's just really understood that the goals of the team are bigger than the goals of the individual. And that's felt in the room. You don't have to speak it. And then I've been in other teams that are the exact opposite. Feels very fragmented. You know, players are very individual in terms of what they're thinking about and what they're working towards. And so, so that, that part of it, I think is a big part of it is really understanding and separating the I from the we and you know, doing something together. I think it just, it kind of frames things as, you know, there's, there's no individual bigger than the team. And that's been something I've noticed in hockey that actually helps people be healthier in team sports than it does in individual sports. I think individual sports is a bit more of a grind mentally. You know, there's fewer competitions in, in some of them, obviously not in something like tennis, but you take something like, let's say you're a hundred meter sprinter, you know, you have major competitions, you know, maybe three of them over a four year period. And so it's, it can be really, really challenging. And I think as a team you learn how to lean on the relationships and lean on the people and how this works. The reason why I mentioned the recipe thing is you have some people that are just ultra serious all the time and it can be a chore just to get them to crack a smile and you feel that seriousness. Then you have some that are at the other end of the spectrum, they're not serious enough, just always laughing, always having a good time, always taking things in stride. And then you have probably people in the middle, you know, that have an ability to kind of maybe Switch from one to the other. And. And I think that's the part that's really fascinating. And so it's not so much that you're trying to get, you know, that serious individual to become less serious, it's just that you're trying to complement their environment with people that balance their energy. And that's one of the really cool things about a team, is that, you know, different personalities end up creating this aspect that allows a group of individuals to be greater than the sum of their parts.
- [22:28]
B
Yeah, I know. Tucker in our office mentioned that hockey is unique in that it is the sport where not necessarily the most talented person is the most successful, that it really is such a recipe of players to create greatness. And so someone who's got pure skill may actually not be a great hockey player because of the necessity of the team component. Whereas in basketball, as an example, one dominant player, like a LeBron or something along those lines can. Can dominate and make a team successful or a failure. Not entirely, but a lot more so than in hockey. Um, okay. And how about you personally or amongst other strength coaches, do. Do you. How do you navigate being behind the scenes? It's like I said, you seem like a super grounded person who love. Loves what you do, so it may be easy for you, but, yeah, how do you manage it? Or do you see other strength coaches or behind the scenes folks struggle with the disproportionate limelight that gets applied to the players?
- [23:28]
A
I have seen people struggle with that, actually, and I'm always amazed by it. It probably has taken me a while to really sort out what it means to be in a support role. I think there's a learning experience there, but in my opinion, being in a support role is something that I think everybody should feel a sense of gratitude around. It's not so much anything I'm doing or I'm trying to accomplish or it's not that I'm trying to attach myself to the accomplishments of the athlete. It's just the opportunity to support someone else is the reward. That is the gift, and that's what you're really gaining from it. And so whether that pays $50,000 or $5 million doesn't really matter. The richness of the opportunity to be able to help someone else en route to their goals is more rich than anything else that goes along with it, whether that is recognition or whether that is monetary in nature. So when you start to lose yourself in that, you just start to gain from it. And I think that's kind of how I see it and I think when other people struggle with it, they, they start to take their eye off of the work and the enjoyment of the work and just the curiosities and the specialness of this unique craft that you're involved in. And they start to put it on outcomes and they start to be a little bit less process, you know, driven. And I think that's when you can kind of lose yourself in it because ultimately there's very little glory in the support staff role. You know, sometimes we, we try to. We try to make it seem glorious at times, but. But it's not. You know, it's a. It's a very, very challenging role. And so I think you just really have to love the work itself.
- [25:17]
B
You sound like Buddha, my friend. What, what brought you into the strength and conditioning path in the first place? Well, I guess tell us your story. Like, sounds like you were a competitive athlete when you were younger, but how did you kind of find this path and what attracted you to it?
- [25:33]
A
Yeah, grew up in a small town and played a lot of different sports. I played seven different sports competitively growing up and just we rotated with the seasons a lot more. So there was a lot less like year round specialization and focus. And so I just loved learning. You know, the motivation to play sports was always there. You know, I was always just playing sports after school and on weekends and, you know, we would just play until we weren't allowed to play anymore. Like we had to come in, you know, and eat some food. You just did it out of the love of doing it. It was just so natural and organic back then. It had absolutely no. Was not about becoming a pro. It was not about, you know, making money or status. There was none of that. I mean, there was no Internet back in those days. You know, it was just about the joy of doing. And so. So I definitely experienced that and I. It's interesting. I've told this story before, so it's out there, but When I was 7 years old, I saw the movie Rocky 4. So that was. The Rocky stories were great stories. They were inspiring because of the. He was an underdog. That's really kind of what it was. But in particular, the training montages were really interesting in that it was just sort of this idea of being motivated to push yourself and to take yourself to new limits and to use training as an avenue to get there. And in Rocky 4 in particular, he had the story of Rocky the underdog and you know, this person who was going to push himself through his preparation, you know, to get to Some insurmountable, you know, goal. And then on the other side you had the Russians who had all of this technology and science. And so I kind of love both of those stories. I love the idea of figuring out a way to do that better than the other person to be able to succeed and asking all the questions that go with that and building the science and the technology and studying it to make it more finely tuned. And so, yeah, I'd probably watch that movie a hundred times, you know, the first couple of years that it came out and memorized the words. And then I would find myself, you know, just training with my own little training montage. And I just love that idea to train for something, not just compete in the sport, but I loved the pursuit of getting ready for that competition. So that just connected with me right away. And then in the sports that I was playing, I was always really interested in how I would train differently for different things. So if it was hockey, maybe I needed to work more on endurance and conditioning. And then if it was sprinting, you know, I was working a little bit more on power and biomechanics. And you know, I competed in a lot of different sports, from powerlifting to bobsleigh to competitive racket sports to endurance running to sprinting. I kind of did it all. Soccer and then of course hockey and baseball. So kind of kind of did all these different sports and was really curious at analyzing the sport at a young age and then determining, okay, I'm going to run more hills in this scenario because I need a little bit more strength or I'm going to do a little bit of downhill sprinting in this scenario or I'm going to do a little bit more strength based movements, or I need my movements to be more multidirectional in this sport versus this sport, which is a little bit more repetitive in a very specific position. So that really started with me at a really young age. And anytime I came across a textbook or a video of some sort, because this was pre Internet essentially, it was like gold to me. You know, I would get some textbook and have to kind of blow off a few cobwebs and a little dust, and I would just be studying every word like it was like it was gospel to me. So just downloading that stuff was so exciting. And so it was kind of like a natural fit. And that's why I feel so grateful to be able to do what I do for a living.
- [29:18]
B
And so did you, did you study, when did you study in university? How did you kind of get on the path to making this a profession.
- [29:25]
A
Yeah. So I actually did a combination of kinesiology and psychology in my undergrad and then did a master's degree in kinesiology with a neuroscience emphasis in for my graduate degree. And so really became interested in the brain. And I had sort of this opportunity when Sidney Crosby had his concussion, to go with him and talk to different experts and to learn a little bit about the brain. And that. That was very fascinating to me. I knew very little about concussions at the time, so I was learning about that injury, but then I was also learning about the brain anatomy and the neuroscience. And so in. And around that time, I was doing my master's degree. And so, you know, it kind of took that. That track of trying to relate things back to the nervous system and the brain and how that influences sport performance and how that has implications on athletes training.
- [30:19]
B
Um, how. How long have you been working with Sid for?
- [30:24]
A
It's been a while. Yeah. Believe it or not, it's been. I think this is our 24th summer that we just completed. Yeah, that's great.
- [30:32]
B
It's a long time. Um, let. Let's talk about Sid. I mean, I have a kind of related question, but when you and I had dinner that first time, you. You shared all of the. Not all of them, but you shared a bunch of details about how it seemed, if I understood correctly, that most traditional treatments for concussion weren't serving Sid. And so you kind of went down alternative paths and saw tremendous benefit from those alternative paths. Can you. Can you share some of those details?
- [31:06]
A
Yeah, for sure. That was a very educational process for me to really go through that. Honestly knew nothing about concussions at the time. And he went through. None of this is really private. It's all public information. But he sustained a concussion and just wasn't getting better. There were still some symptoms there. The symptoms were headache. You know, that was one of the main ones. But there was also some energy stuff going on, and there was some vestibular stuff that was happening and could kind of see it. I remember this one summer where, you know, he was working through his concussion, so, you know, doing some training every day or trying to make adjustments. You know, is it too much? Is it too little? Trying to follow the symptoms and just see what we should be doing, what we shouldn't be doing. And remember, they. They were the. Back then, we didn't have a lot of props, like, very specific. Nowadays you have, like, a lot of things like edge boss and power edge pro, where you have, like, a lot of props to stick, handle around. So we're using just random objects. I think there was, like, a chair that was at center ice, and he would just kind of come around and try to slide the puck through the chair and couldn't really get through the chair. And there were other things like, you know, dumping a bunch of pucks on the ice and just, you know, stick handling through the pucks would be really easy task, effortless for him. He could do that for several minutes, you know, just kind of stick handily around parks and. And, you know, would lose the puck and just even other things that he described in terms of like, you know, going with one hand in the stick and then putting your hand back on the stick and just how awkward that felt. So there was, like, symptoms that we now know are classic concussion symptoms. You know, vestibular symptoms, headaches, energy issues. And at the time, I think concussion was just really a broad terminology. It still is pretty broad and nondescript. So there's a lot of different elements of that injury. So concussion can be an injury to a variety of different systems, all which kind of overlap and affect each other. And at the time, because people just knew it's a brain injury, there's something that's happening that's affecting the neurons of the brain. It could be inflammation based, it could be energy based, it could be neurochemical in nature. Not 100% sure, but the best thing to do is to try to rest and let it recover. And so they would try to just decrease stimulus. So this is kind of like the sitting in a dark room, you know, with the dark glasses analogy, and just try to remove all stimulus from the brain, which now I think most experts would say that's probably one of the worst things you can do. You know, the brain doesn't work that way. You know, it's like a muscle. You know, you have to. You can't just let it completely atrophy. You have to try to strengthen it and stimulate it, but you have to figure out how to stimulate it. And so it doesn't make it any less complicated. I think it's just this recognition of the brain. And in some ways, it was a real tragedy for sid to go through that. Like, he handled it extremely well, but it was certainly a difficult time. He missed a lot of hockey in his prime. Who knows what could have happened if he had been able to continue playing through that with respect to just his legacy and what he would be able to do, points wise. But, you know, it was just a really difficult time. And I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, you know, to be removed from the sport and to have this seed of doubt, you know, as to whether you're ever going to come back the same. Having said that, there was a great. There was a great good that was accomplished with that. I think that because it was happening to him, he was the biggest superstar in the game at the time. It just made people reflect on the seriousness of head injuries and the dangers of the sport and how there needs to be more research, more science, better care, better standards and protocols that can protect the athletes. And certainly that has happened. It's been completely changed now. So it's pretty amazing what's happened. And his process was ultimately was just to try the standard recommendations, and at some point, it's just not working. And I think one thing that I thought was really good that he did is he knew that when he's not right, if he doesn't feel his normal self, you know, he wasn't just going to jump back in there. And I think prior to that, there was probably a, you know, an expectation. I would say, who knows where this expectation comes from, Whether it's just, you know, pride or whether it's the players just not wanting to be left out or. Or whether it's, you know, maybe the stigma that gets attached to it. But, you know, when you have a head injury, you just kind of like, literally shake it off. Like, literally just shake your head and then just jump back out there. Right. And so I think he was patient. He recognized that things weren't right. He wanted to continue to get some treatment, and that's what he did. And that meant, you know, meeting with and seeing a lot of different people. And I got dragged along in that experience to be able to just give him sort of a sounding board. What do you think? You know, what. What are you seeing and, you know, what are your thoughts? And he gave me an opportunity to meet. Meet a lot of really interesting people, and I learned a lot through the process. And eventually he saw some people that really helped him, and the rest is history.
- [36:16]
B
Thank you for sharing that. And we can cut this if you don't want to talk about it, but I think at dinner you told us about one of the doctors or treatment providers putting him in a chair that they used to train NASA athletes or something along those lines, which seems very typical for concussion treatment. Was. Am I remembering that correctly?
- [36:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, this is interesting. So he ended up seeing somebody named Ted Carrick, who was a chiropractic neurologist so just a really intelligent man and somebody that, that at the time, you know, this is very non traditional. So you have, you know, the sort of world of concussion that's a little bit more, I'd say, medically driven and a little bit more scientifically driven. And by no means was what Dr. Carrick was doing non scientific. It was, in my opinion, it was actually very objective. You know, they were using force plates to measure balance and postural sway. They were doing video nystagmography to look at eye movements. And they were very specific in what they were seeing. And the treatment was very specific. And there was a test retest type of process. So it was actually very objective. I'd say. It just wasn't standardized. It probably existed a little bit more in the movement disorders world than it did like actual concussion. So I think with the brain being an ecosystem that affects so many different areas of the body, it can go into a lot of different areas. You can treat a concussion with an exercise physiologist who's helping you reacclimate to exercise. That's one way of doing it. And of course, exercise, you know, typically has a benefit from an adaptability standpoint. There's people who are more, in the kind of neuroscience space, like looking more at the brain, whether it's brain imaging and looking at different types of plaques and like direct injury to the brain and trying to treat those, whether it's pharmacologically or by other means. And then you have people more in the movement disorders side of things who are looking at things more in terms of balance, vertigo, you know, timing. And when we're dealing with these elite athletes are dealing with nervous systems that are quite different. And obviously this ability to just thread the needle at these high speeds and manage all these processing of moving parts around you, it obviously means that their brains and their nervous systems are going to respond differently to different things than the average person. Right. So. So yeah, it was Dr. Carrick I found was very robust in his assessment. I thought he was very objective. And I thought of all of the different people that Sid saw. This is my opinion, don't want to put words in his mouth, but I thought that that was the most productive and had a big impact. And Dr. Carrick ended up being in one of the main press conferences that the penguins held to talk about what was going on with Sid and, and what was happening with his injury. You know, I would describe, if I'm a strength coach, just observing Sid before, during and after that injury, I would describe that injury as fully rehabilitated. Personally, you know, there was a complete absence of symptomatology of any kind. And now maybe somebody would disagree. I know we look at once you've had a head injury, you know, there's always an injury and it can never really get better. I personally, I feel like the brain is plastic. I feel like it can heal, it can adapt, it can improve. And just from a symptomatology standpoint, being around Sid and being so close to him, I don't see lingering effects of that concussion whatsoever. I look at him as fully rehabilitated as far as the things that I'm able to observe.
- [39:56]
B
Thank you for sharing that. It touches on one of the things actually Jordan Shallow and I talked about, which is the difference between research based and evidence evidence based. And you know, a lot of medicine is research based. And a lot of his practice, it's not non scientific. It's just more evidence based of I've done this a thousand times. It works. Even though the traditional medical or chiropractic textbooks say that's not the case. And I think it's an important thing in this world that we seem to have such polarization and such uncertainty around good health and medical practices is that I think you got to keep an open mind which is you can't, you know, I don't know if you saw the news, but like there's all this noise recently about Al McPherson who had breast cancer and had a lumpectomy but then refused chemo and you know, that's all one thing. And then, you know, I've seen other people being like, anyway, we're not going to go down that path. But I think it is important to keep an open mind, not ignore science, but also don't ignore experience from very experienced people and try to make the right decisions. Because at the end of the day we are responsible for our own bodies and got to do the things that are right for us. But it's very interesting, especially in the social media world where there's so much information being thrown. You kind of touched on it here. But one of the things I found is that most successful people I know are always willing to break the rules or at least break the expectations or past practices as part of their path to success. And you certainly, I mean just that one analogy with Sid and being supportive of that probably exemplify that. But looking back on your career, does that resonate with you? And how do you think you may have diverged from past practice to establish yourself as. Again, I'm these aren't my words, but a legendary strength coach. You work with some of the top NHL players, so there's something that, that differentiated you from some of the others. And how do you, how do you look at that in yourself?
- [42:02]
A
Yeah, well, I think, I think also to comment on just where you were going with that, Ron, and I love what you're talking about and I do remember going to dinner and we were going back and forth on this quite a bit is it's just this pursuit of truth, you know, trying to get answers and just, you know, being focused on, on truth and removing the ego and you know, trying to be less about being right. It's actually, it's actually really hard to do. Some really intelligent people have big egos and you know, they become really the things that make them really smart, actually really limit them in lots of ways. And so one of my favorite sayings is, you know, there's a difference between evidence of absence and absence of evidence. And so if you just because there is no evidence around something doesn't make it wrong. And so I think that we have a tendency to look for peer reviewed things and if there is no peer reviewed things, then, well, you know, it's wrong. Or something is more right if there's some level of peer reviewed evidence than something that doesn't have it. And certainly I've seen this throughout my career. I mean, you even look at the, the research on longevity and saunas that's coming out right now and there were a lot of people that thought saunas were, you know, complete bs. And there's no way that it can have this like massive influence in your health. And yet if you look in Scandinavia, there's a lot of people that would swear that it does just based on, you know, their own experiences. Right. But people would write off that experience until that peer reviewed information comes available. And so I definitely think that if you're a real truth seeker, you have an epistemological model that saves space for evidence, whether that's peer reviewed evidence or whether it's a bit more anecdotal in nature, logic, things just based on an understanding of the body. Okay, there, that kind of makes sense. There's a mechanism there that lines up. You can look at experiential. So that could be an NF1. This was my experience, this is what I did. This was the outcome. And you start to value that. And even traditional, you know, this is something that's been traditional, you know, I haven't experienced it. There's no necessarily logical construct, but People have been doing this and just the circumstantial evidence around that, you know, people typically, you know, will cease doing something if it's not, you know, benefiting them at some point in time. Right. For most things, not everything. So you sort of have a very wide scope of understanding of how you arrive at the truth or how you make decisions. And I think once you start to get isolated in any of those things, it can become problematic even when that isolation is a peer reviewed lens, because you can only have peer reviewed information on so many things. And in hockey, there's a, it's a pretty good way to look at this. Like, you know, we sort of have this clash between, with scouts and coaches who've been around the game and can watch a game and make observations to trying to replace that with a bit more evidence, whether that's analytics or whether it's data, whether it's, you know, event counting or whatever that might be. And it doesn't really have to clash. You know, those two things can live together and when they do live together, it's very successful, but they tend to be very polarizing. So once you think in a certain way and you operate by certain rules, you have tendency to have disdain for the other rules. And so you'll see coaches and scouts that literally, they, they literally hate people when they start using statistics and things. They say, oh, that's such bs you can't measure it that way. You miss so many things. They're, they're instantaneously taught to see the flaws right in, in that system as opposed to being curious and saying, hey, what am I missing here, right? What, what maybe am I not seeing? And the same thing happens from, you know, people who are trained to look at, at the numbers and the analysis. It's like, you know, well, that's, that's just your bias, you know, and so they instantaneously see the flaws in an observational, you know, experiential type of analyses. And so, but it's like, yeah, that's okay to have a bias. You know, when you've seen hundreds and thousands of different events over time, you know, that bias can actually be really helpful in the absence of any kind of controlled information. And sometimes the amount of information you have towards a particular subject is, is very limited. And so you have to use some of these, like subjective knowing. And so anyway, that's a bit of a rant, but I really liked where you're going there.
- [46:28]
B
I appreciate that. And in an earlier podcast with my friend Sanjay Singhal, he talked about heuristics. And I'm going to add a new heuristic to my life, which is keep asking what am I missing? Right? At a certain point you can probably mine that too far, but keep asking that until you've developed a degree of certainty, you know, because it's easy to just fall into your patterns, whether it's experience based, research based, whatever. I think that's, that's, that's imperative and a useful rule of thumb. And so do you think that that open mindedness that, you know, that what am I missing approach to life training, whatever is what has separated you or at least been a factor in your success potentially relative to others.
- [47:21]
A
100. 100. The first opportunity I had to do this, I remember my first NHL job. I went in to work with the Florida Panthers. I'm in my mid-20s, I'm a young kid. I was really interested in the testing and scientific application of things. And we tested over 50 players at training camp. And I remember sitting down with coaching staff and the management and literally like the worst, probably one of the worst players in the team ended up finishing first in testing. And you know, we just did not see this relationship between who was doing well at the testing and who were the better players. I think at that moment, you know, I had a choice. I could make an excuse and say, well, okay, they're good hockey players, but you know, physically, you know, they're, they're not really where we want them to be. And so we want these, you know, players who are the top players in the team to be a lot more like these guys from an off ice perspective. And, and you would hear this all the time. Yeah, very skilled, but like off fights are in the gym, you know, not very impressive. And so we need to get them more impressive in the gym. I think the, the decision I made at that time was to be curious and to question some of the things that I was looking at and to be able to say, okay, well, the game is physical. I mean it's skating, shooting, there's movement, there's participation, there's a strength component, there's an acceleration component. So like, what am I missing? You know, if I'm measuring something, for example, a straight line acceleration or a squat jump to measure power, but that's not translating into power. As I see it from an honest perspective, maybe there's something missing there. And what that did was it taught me to ask more questions and be more curious. And I started to learn more about the biomechanics of the game and the Muscle physiology of the game, what translates and what doesn't. And then what is the difference between the execution of physical qualities within a skilled movement within this context of a chaotic environment and all the processing that goes with it compared to the underlying physiology behind something that is very predictable and static. And so I started to see differences and that affected my training programs and I wanted to be able to provide training that affected change in the sport, not training to be good at training. And so it was less about, you know, developing an athlete to be good at develop the development and more developing an athlete to really affect change in their sport. And I became obsessed with what does produce change and what doesn't and in what circumstances and in whom. And I think is just maintaining that honesty and that curiosity. If I was more interested in selling myself, I probably would have taken the hard stance that well, what I'm doing is still right, but I was less interested in that and I was actually just more interested in learning and discovering. And so I think that's really the starting point is that when you're asking yourself what am I missing? How could I be better? Where did I potentially go wrong? And you develop a comfort with doing that. I think it can really take you places. And to this day the businesses that I work with and the people that I work with, very often when we debrief people talk about all the right things that they did. You know, yeah, this person is approved here. They're doing this or they're doing that. And I think that's natural to try to justify or to try to show value or to try to sell what you're doing and you're. Most people are interested in their own success rather than their failures. I'm always interested in my failures because I see an opportunity to grow from that.
- [50:42]
B
That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's incredibly insightful. Do you see a lot of the best players keep that open mindedness to what am I missing? How can I get better? Is that, is that like a key feature in some of those people who excel versus others?
- [50:56]
A
100%. 100%. You know, you'll, you'll never catch the top athletes. I mean, certainly, look, there's ego, you know, in sports it happens. I mean if you want to step on the field or the court or the ice and, and just absolutely dominate the best, the other best players in the world, I mean you have to, you have to have a pretty healthy confidence. And however, I would say most of the athletes that I've worked with at that top level are almost hypercritical, you know, almost to the point where it's too much. You know, they're too hard on themselves. And I think that is just really something that they have a great respect for how difficult it is to do what they need to do. And they don't take anything for granted. And every detail matters, and it's almost to the point where it's never enough. And I think that's. That's part of being great, but it's also a reasonably unhealthy, you know, mindset at the same time. So I think that's. The tug of war is maintaining the humility and maintaining that sort of lack of satisfaction that continues to drive you forward, but at the same time, you know, maintaining a sense of confidence. And there's a. There's a dance there that can be really difficult because those two things are polarizing. And I think the best of the best have a way of balancing the two.
- [52:17]
B
I think that may be the best articulation of the challenges of modern life I've heard, which is like. That really is. It's like we were in this dance between, you know, ambition, success, drive, and, you know, deservability, worth, contentment, and their intention. Intention. And I think certainly in our society, we've focused way too hard on the former, and we're seeing the impact on it, and I see the impact that has on a lot of entrepreneurs, and I'm sure you see the impact it has on a lot of athletes, you know, like Tyrell Terry, as a simple example. And I'm sure you've seen that as well, which actually is a good kind of parlay into my next question, which was, growing up, I was a huge sports fan. You know, I had ambitions despite my Jewish genetics that had me stop growing at five foot eight and a half and 145 pounds to play, you know, Div 2 basketball and all that kind of stuff. But now that I'm a bit older, you know, I sometimes struggle with the idea of how, you know, these grown men, primarily men, get paid huge sums of money to run around and play a game. I mean, I see there is merit in pushing the capacities of the human capability, but I still struggle with how much glory we place on these guys playing a game. Does that ever cross your mind? How do you think about that?
- [53:42]
A
Yeah, it's a really good question. It hasn't crossed my mind much. You know, it's something I've. I've. Since I. When I came into sports, I think there Already were, you know, people getting paid quite a bit. So I didn't really, I wasn't in that era where it really evolved because there are some legends in every sport that, you know, were heroes for people and very, very gifted and very special, but didn't necessarily make a lot. Like they just got to make a decent living or a good living doing what they love. And that was pretty cool. And it probably was at an era where you had a little bit less separation in general, just in people in various other jobs as well. If you look at this job industry, there's just so much variation now in terms of wealth and people who are really struggling to pay their bills on a day to day basis. And I, I think there was a period, I think it was Jerry Seinfeld that talked about this. He said in the 70s it was just all about how cool your job was. It wasn't like, how much are you making? And then in the 80s and 90s you had people that in their early 20s are making a lot of money in various industries. So it evolved. I think sports probably falls into that category too, where all of a sudden there's a business and there's an economics behind it. And I haven't really had much of an opinion. I think on the one hand I don't love the business side of it. You know, I love the sport for the sake of sport. So strip all of that down and you just have athletes playing on a pond somewhere with no fans against each other. And like, I love that. And on the other hand I have this like tremendous appreciation for the best of the best and the unique nuances and subtleties that make them what they are and how rare that is and how much, and how much appreciation I have. Some of the things I see on a day to day basis, you know, some of these athletes just blow me away. And I just have appreciation for how incredibly rare it is. And so I think in many ways it's deserving because they, they really are special and gifted. And you know, then you have to, in order to succeed over a long period of time, you have to add all of these personal qualities, you know, work ethic and determination, attitude, humility, all of that stuff, to the skill that they have and the natural talents that they have. So yeah, I think I can look at it in a bunch of different ways. But yeah, there's definitely times, I think we going back to the first question about the camp that's not a professional camp, I mean, the players are essentially flying themselves out to this camp, right and it's just for the love of it. And I think that's what's really cool and that's how we try to structure the camp when we're putting it all together, is to try to preserve that as much as possible.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah. You know, what you talked of, talked about off the top, you know, which was back when I think you're probably exact same age as me, it's like back when we played sports, you played because you loved it. Right. And there was no specialization, no one specialized. You like played all sports for as long as you could and then maybe if you're truly, truly elite. Yeah. Then you played, you know, basketball or hockey or whatever in university and went from there. And now specialization happens so early. Like my, my buddy Mark Rigaud, his son I guess is now 12, but when we're having this conversation, he was 11, he loves baseball, plays baseball. And Mark was saying besides the fact that like, you know, all the players, watches, watch two coaches fight, actually physically get into a brawl at a game, he was saying that his coach told him that unless his 11 year old had a trainer in the off season to get ready for the next season, don't bother coming out. He's 11 years old. When I was 11 years old, that guy's playing Sega Genesis. But that, you know, the way I describe it is that the ethics of capitalism have taken over the ethics of sport. And I do acknowledge your point, which is with that comes the capacity for a level of greatness and skill set that, you know, not amateurs but dabblers, I guess, like you and I would have been. We'll never achieve. But it is coming with a huge consequence and there's a tension there. And again I feel like the tension has fallen too far into business competition above all else. And at the expense of letting kids be kids. You know, we got, we got mental health struggles all over the place and, and maybe kids should just be allowed to be kids for a little while without having to specialize and you know, pay. And then the other thing is just like pay those big bills. Right. Like my kids play soccer at Cherry beach and you know, my son's not particularly good, but you know, very quickly there are all the coaches being like, hey, your kid's good. You should put up, put, put them up into the specialized league or you know, the elite league. And of course that comes with cash outlay and all that kind of stuff. I don't know, there's, there's just an ick feeling I get from it. Maybe it's just My inner, you know, 17 year old that never made anything of my sports career just being bitter. But there still feels like we, the balance isn't there and we've got to kind of reorient towards it. But we could probably talk about that for hours and that's probably a great further conversation for Asana at othership for another time. All right, let's, let's talk a little bit about Sizzle and Quench. So you are our chief performance officer. You've been part of the company from day one and you were tasked with formulating quench and helping out with the spoken products and a. What, what attracted you to the opportunity to help formulate Quench and tell us a little bit about what, what is in it and why you like it for, you know, your athletes and beyond.
- [59:24]
A
Yeah, so I've had a little bit of opportunity to be involved in the supplement world before I had. Yeah. As a strength and conditioning coach that, that sort of falls on you. You know, you're making, you know, electrolyte drinks and protein drinks or recovery drinks for players and then you're sort of, you know, strength and conditioning coaches are kind of like the performance managers for athletes, just probably because they're with them on a day to day basis. And then as a strength coach, you aren't just building workout plans. Like most of the time you're trying to look at overall volume, workload. And so you start to dabble in sports science, you dabble in sports nutrition, you dabble in sports psychology. So you start to be kind of the generalist that, you know, pulls in various things and sometimes that comes in the form of integration of other expertise and in some cases it's, it's helping to just bring it all back to performance. So you can't give somebody nutrition advice unless you know what their nutrition is for. So when somebody comes along says, hey, you should be eating keto or you should be eating Paleo, or it's wrong to have high protein or you should be having high protein. It's, it's really hard to just come up with these like kind of blank or these kind of blanket statements. It's like, okay, well what are your goals? What do we know about your genetics? What do we know about your physiology? What do we know about what you've done from a trial and error standpoint? So, so that's kind of the strength coach that like is in that environment with the athlete that understands their needs, that understands their, the way they respond to different things. Right. So you're sort of the filter between all these things. So that was really my exposure to sports and nutrition and always just had a passion for it and, you know, got involved in the supplement side of things, how you can use supplements to enhance performance, how it might change from one individual to another. And then, you know, got involved with a couple of different companies just from an advisory standpoint. And primarily the advice that I was giving was, what is there a need for? Like, what are the performance demands, you know, what's missing in the marketplace? And then, you know, got exposure to some really smart nutrition people and really got involved in the formulation side of things. And so that was sort of my background. And then, and then when I had an opportunity to get involved with Sizzle, I knew that the perspective was making the best products. So the position of the company wasn't going to be corporate from the standpoint of we just want to make the most possible money and, you know, whatever product is going to do that, that's where we're going to go. I knew that there was this idea that, yeah, we want to build a successful company, but we want to do that with the best products. And that's the expectation that was, that's why people were coming to me was to be able to, you know, when John reached out to me, it was really just this conversation around, we want to build the best products and we're leaning on you to help us understand what that is and how we can really try to get to that destination. So that was first and foremost for me what I wanted to do. And then the big picture conversation around quench in particular was all about the hydration space. And so it was like, what is a hydration drink? And looking at all the other drinks in the market and the one thing that we realized is that people, when you lose sodium in the body, that comes in, when you lose sweat. Sorry, it's very sodium rich. So the sodium potassium ratio in that is somewhere around anywhere from 5 to 1 to 12 to 1. So it's primarily sodium that you're losing. However, there were a lot of drinks out there that didn't want to put sodium in the drinks because there's this negative connotation around sodium. And there was a lot of discussion around sodium and heart disease and sodium water retention and different things. And I think that that applies to people that don't exercise, that really don't sweat. So they have none of that detoxification. So there's just this accumulation of excess fluid in the body and then that also have diets that are Full of processed food, so fast food. And then additional, in addition to that, things like whether it's, you know, going through the drive through or ordering pizza or ordering chicken wings or whatever that might be. And so you get this massive amount of dietary sodium without much sweating that's taking place. And if you actually look at athletes and people who are reaching for hydration drinks, whether you're at the beach or golfing or whatever that might be, going for a hike or you're a serious athlete, that's actually, you may, maybe it's a younger athlete, a 14 year old in a tournament playing six games in three days, or maybe it's a serious athlete with multiple hours of training on a daily basis. So, you know, if that's really your market and part of the ethos of the company is promoting physical activity and wellness and helping people reach their goals, you now have to start to look at and say, okay, these are people that actually need some replacement of sodium in their diet. And so we wanted to be able to do that. And if you look at the marketplace, so we kind of have this sodium potassium ratio that's a little bit more favorable to sodium than some of the other drinks that are out there. We're in that 3 to 1, which is actually the ratio of sodium to potassium in the blood. We also wanted to find out, well, what is the sweet spot? What is enough that's going to be able to replenish electrolytes and actually support your performance. Performance of support. We were trying to do support your health, but not too much to the point where, you know, you have to be very careful not consuming, you know, multiple of those beverages. So we spent a little bit of time on the, what we're putting in, what are the ratios and then what are the amounts and then separate from that, we wanted to be with the current research with respect to which types of minerals. So what is it ultimately bound to? So for example, in our products we're using things like magnesium bisglycinate, which is a highly bioavailable form of magnesium, things like zinc bisclycinate. So we're trying to find out what is the, what are the minerals that are considered the most bioavailable in the highest forms, regardless of price, because we know those things could be used with minerals that are much cheaper. So that's been really important to us is getting the, from a hydration standpoint, putting electrolytes in our products that are substantial but not overkill, making sure they have the right ratio and then making sure that we have the best possible form with the highest bioavailability. And that's been kind of like the kind of approach that we've had from our hydration formula with quench. And so we have our two products, our RTD product, which is just electrolytes, and then we have our hydration formula which is for sustained sport performance or sustainability, sustained training. So we have branch chain amino acids, very popular in the endurance community. Reduces that overall cost. So if you do have, you know, multiple games inside of a short period of time, it can decrease muscle soreness, it can increase performance. So those kind of prolonged training, we have these added branch chain amino acids, added B vitamins, which work synergistically with the B, with the branch chain amino acids. And again, we have all the best forms of B vitamins, methylated B vitamins. And so we've kind of created these two formulas that we felt are the best of what we want. And I think there's evidence in that in terms of the quality of what we put in it, the thought process around all of those ratios. And then when you strip that down and say, okay, after the hydration conversation, what do we want? I think with the eco friendly packaging, reducing the number of plastics and reducing just the contamination of the package itself is really important because you definitely see that, you know, you've got this health product, but it's in a container that has all kinds of, you know, toxic ingredients in it. And then just the artificial sweeteners, the colors, you know, the things that are out there that, you know, I have to think, you know, any argument out there that these things are just fine and you don't have to worry about them is a pretty weak one in this day and age. And so just the ability to use stevia as a natural sweetener, we have no artificial colors, we have the eco friendly packaging. We're making every possible effort that you can make to make the product something that somebody can take without having to think about what's in it and whether, you know, using this on a regular basis is going to have a cost to my health. And so that's just been fun to be a part of.
- [67:21]
B
Damn, that's a good sales pitch. Much better than I do at the top of every episode. One of the questions I get often is, is okay for kids to have quench. And I know we have the Quenchy product coming out probably next year, but what are your thoughts on that? Taking into consideration your points about if you're already consuming tons and tons of sodium from your Diet, you know, being cautious from anybody, not just kids, should be mindful of that. But what are your thoughts on that? And how is quenching going to be different than the quench formula?
- [67:56]
A
Yeah, really interesting. I think quench is okay for kids. I think that it's. It's very safe. The number one thing that I think of when I think of kids is sugar. And there's, like, pretty. To me, I think it's just something that can be very addictive. I think when you're drinking a lot of beverages that have a lot of sugar, you see it with kids, once they get a taste for that, they don't want to eat things that don't have sugar. They find things, like, very bland. And so they just seem to be very sensitive with their palates. And so I think that's really important to remove the sugar. And then I think just that they're at a stage where their bodies are developing, so the least amount of sort of chemical or, you know, foods that could potentially be toxic or things that your immune system has to react to to be able to break down or digest or build antibodies against. You know, personally, I think you can probably get into that debate about which things are really bad for the body based on, you know, being made in a lab versus being like a natural extract. But I think, for the most part, there is some risk there. And I think with kids, we just have a very low risk tolerance. You know, you only go through those development stages once. So I think it becomes almost more important than it does for adults to find something that's naturally sweetened and that has the least amount of that, like, toxic load, for lack of a better word. And then I think with quenches, what we're ultimately trying to do is we're trying to help solve that problem. So you might not need necessarily the volume of the container, things that are a little bit smaller, easier to carry around with you. But some kids do need electrolytes. I mean, those that can be really important. They're sweating, they're physically active, and a lot of times they do crave something sweet. Not a lot of kids want to drink water. So being able. For most of the kids, they're drinking juice, so it's a concentrated juice, and that's full of sugar, apple juice, orange juice, cranberry juice, whatever it might be. We often associate these things as healthy because they're coming from fruit. But the reality is, you know, 15, 20, 25, 30 grams of sugar, just like that with kids. And so if they're Having that on a regular basis or 2, 3, 4 of those a day, it starts to become really problematic. And so this ability to get something that tastes good that they like, that has a low level of electrolytes, so just a decrease in potency, but that allows them to drink and hydrate themselves, you know, when they're physically active, is kind of the idea. And we've included a little bit of vitamin C in that as well, because if we're replacing juice might be losing a little bit of vitamin C. We wanted to make sure that that that wasn't the case. So. So anyway, that's. That's kind of the idea behind Quenches is to. Is to serve that market that probably even more so, you know, than adults need something that's naturally sweetened and, you know, doesn't have as many of the plastics and things like that going into their body.
- [70:41]
B
I think that would be a mic drop. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. You know, actually, that's the first time I. I've heard all of these points in different situations, but never articulated in such an eloquent and single formulation of why quench is what it is. Everybody loves it. I love it. I give it to my kids. It tastes great. The thing is, is, like, when you hear all of that, you're like, oh, that sounds like something that'll taste like shit. And I'm going to say that again, that sounds like something that will not taste great, because this episode will probably get cut up into social media clips. So I'll say it in a way that's a little social media friendly, but it tastes awesome. And that's the amazing part. So thank you for that. That's what I got in terms of questions. So is there anything that you wanted to touch on that we haven't talked about? This is a great opportunity to do so. If not, I'll let you get back to enjoying Pei and your family and friends there.
- [71:38]
A
Well, you know what? Like, just even on that last point that you mentioned, Ronan, like, I. I've learned. So as a strength coach, like, I'm more focused on what's going in my body, no matter how bad it tastes. And many of the athletes I work with, it's the same. You know, it really doesn't matter. It's all about, you know, getting the best possible nutrition, and then you sort of acquire a taste for it, and, you know, you just are less sensitive to it. And I've always operated that way. And. And if I'm being honest, you know, probably Give people a second look when I see them putting something bad in their body, you know, and. And I sort of realized, I think this experience of working with a company that has to value some of the things that maybe I didn't value at first, like taste, texture, palatability. And you realize that athletes are human beings, too. And one of the things that. When I came to work for the Pittsburgh Penguins In 2015, we did a total revamp of the food and nutrition program there. And one of the things that we had was we had a rockstar chef who was just incredible, passionate, asked questions, wanted to learn, really wanted to. Every time we gave him a challenge like, hey, we can't put that in the food, you know, he wanted to find an alternative and was excited to come back. And even if that took him several hours to come up with that solution, he really wanted to be a part of what we were trying to do there. But what we wanted to do is we wanted to make sure that we didn't have to choose between what was best for you and what. What tasted good. We wanted that to be the same. And I realize that whether it's food or drink or whatever it is that you're putting into your body, it's not just about the ingredients. It's also about feeling right. And food for people represents family. Breaking bread with people represents things they may have grew up with and taste and different things that you're putting in your body. It does actually affect emotion. There is a neurochemical response to what's happening. And so you realize that, for me, it got me out of my comfort zone and started to respect the importance that the food tastes good and it has the right texture and actually how that affects the athletes and how it's actually not appropriate to ask of them. Just put this in your body because that's what you need to perform. Well, it really goes much further than that. And so learning that and going through that experience and working with a really talented person who knew how to get what we needed in the food, but make it an enjoyable experience. So the players couldn't wait to get to the rink in the morning. You know, they couldn't wait to, you know, sit down and have a meal together and spend time together because of how great that he made it, I sort of learned that. And I think I've learned that in being involved with sizzle brands is that it really is the same. The enjoyment of the use of the product, the excitement of sharing it with someone because, you know, it tastes really good. The enthusiasm of comparing one flavor to the other.
- [74:23]
B
That's all part of it.
- [74:24]
A
It's all part of the experience. So I've really gained a newfound appreciation for the experience of it and how important taste and texture is in the products, just as important as it is in, in what's in it.
- [74:37]
B
Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a great insight. It reminds me of two things. One is. And I'll send it to you, but there was a researcher from the Institute of Noetic Sciences that did some work looking at people's perspectives of food. So what was interesting is they had food that they gave to people and some of it was blessed by priests or monks and some of it wasn't. And there was a control group where people were or I guess a non control group where people were aware and there was a control group where people were unaware. And even in the instances where people were unaware that it had been blessed by priests or monks, the biological impact improved relative to the control group, which is fascinating. So, you know, call it placebo effect, call it magic, call it whatever you want. But there is an important, that importance of what you think you're putting in your body. If you think it's good for you, if you think it's been designed properly or prepared properly, it has a disproportionately positive impact on your biology relative to stuff that, you know is crap.
- [75:42]
A
Wow.
- [75:43]
B
So that's, that's something to keep in mind. I'll find that, that episode incentive to you. And then one final question. Kale seems to be polarizing these days. Are you pro kale or anti kale?
- [75:56]
A
It's very interesting. I've. I'm pro kale. So kale has always been one of my favorite foods. I think you could go pretty deep into that and I'll just share my thoughts, which are just, you know, my own views. It's not to say that it's. It's necessarily scientifically conclusive, but kale can be polarizing in the sense that it's like extremely nutrient dense. And I think if you compare kale to other vegetables, there's quite a bit of nutritional value in there. And then at the same time, there are some things in there that make it hard on the body so it can be hard to break down and things like oxalates and different types of chemicals that can be really difficult. One of the things that I believe in is that chewing your food is a part of the digestion process. That's where the digestion begins and you're releasing Chemicals in your saliva through that chewing process, you're also breaking up chemicals and beginning that decomposition process with the chewing stage. And one of the reasons why I think grains can be very inflammatory in nature just with their natural compounds is because there's not much chewing that that goes on. So if you look at oatmeal or steel cut oats or rice or pasta, you don't have to chew them because of the texture. And so they go immediately into the gut. And so you're decreasing that process. That's very natural. But you know, vegetables can be chewed very extensively. And one of the things I loved about kale is I find I chew it for a fairly long period of time. And so I actually really like it myself. I think that, you know, maybe, maybe for certain types of people, you know, that are sensitive or responsive to certain types of chemicals, it's, it's not great. I've gone through cycles of my own nutrition where I've actually done a lot less vegetables and felt a lot better, felt a lot less inflammation for myself because. And my theory behind that is maybe it's what the vegetables are grown with and sprayed with that I'm responding to. Other times I've kind of phased in more cooked vegetables. But I think the, the data is pretty clear that, you know, vegetables are good. Overall, I think the sourcing and the growth of those vegetables matters, which is huge. And I think just chewing them and preparing them the right way matters as well. Cleaning them, you know, all that kind of stuff. So. So anyways, I've sort of come full circle with kale. I was really into it. It was my favorite food, actually ate kale out of the Stanley cup and which most people were just disgusted by. You know, they just thought that was just absolutely wrong to do that. You know, it had to be like Captain Crunch or something like that. And I think my first time I had it, it was kale and grapefruit and people were just absolutely grossed out by that. That's just wrong. Shouldn't be allowed to do that. And, and then I kind of got off it for a while because I was dealing with some gut inflammation myself and really exploring this idea of, you know, organic vegetables and really how organic are they, what types of chemicals and sprays, different, you know, things like glyphosates, for example, that they're potentially getting exposed to, even just through the water that they're used to be grown with. So, so I kind of got away from it and I'm now kind of in the process of reintroducing actually just bought a beautiful head of crispy green kale last night and probably going to go to town on that tomorrow.
- [79:15]
B
The kale growers of Canada or America are happy right now. Andy thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation every really appreciate it. Very insightful. So thanks for making the time. It's awesome to be working with you on this project. And here's to many more good sauna sessions to come.
- [79:32]
A
Likewise. Thanks so much for having me. Rona.