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Australia's Immigration Just Took a Dark Turn & the World Needs to Know | Alex Antic
00:26:43
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
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B
$45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com in the recent two or three years we've seen a massive influx of people. We think there are almost as many as 2 million new immigrants, which on a population of 27 is a significant chunk, which has been a policy of this labor government, including recently allowing the widows or brides from Isis to return to Australia, which is a very dangerous and controversial thing to be doing, of course. All right.
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A
Senator Alex Antick. A pleasure. Pleasure to meet you. I feel like, I feel like I already interviewed you. We did a half hour where we should have just had the cameras rolling. But we're gonna sit down and repeat a bunch of things that I think we just spoke about. But first I should mention. So we're here in Melbourne. How was my pronunciation there?
- [01:22]
B
That was good.
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A
That was pretty good.
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B
It was excellent.
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A
Can you say it? Because I'm nervous for my live show tomorrow.
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B
Melbourne is good. Melbourne. But just don't, don't say Sydney.
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A
Definitely don't say Sydney. I should mention you are not Senator of Melbourne.
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B
Correct.
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A
You are Senator of ath.
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B
Adelaide.
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A
Can you, can you break down. I thought we'd do a little Australia 101 for the people. Because even me coming in, it's a big country. We know Crocodile Dundee, we know Bluey. That's kind of the extent.
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B
And spiders, I'm told as well. Everyone's frightened of Australian spiders. And you should be. Yeah, well, look, and look, I. This is going to test me as well because my knowledge of Australian history and politics might not be. But. But essentially. That's right. Like I'm a senator. I. Similar system to the U.S. but we, we sit in two. Two chambers of the Parliament Senate. And the. And the House, as we call it, the House of Representatives. Senators are elected by their whole state, whereas a little bit like in the us the lower house is just elected in districts, if you like. We call them electoral districts. So, yeah, each state has 12, except for our territories. And it's a house of review. We review laws and make it sound quite boring.
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A
No, no politics. No. We have similar systems. We have similar people also. And I do want to talk to you a little bit about what you think it means to be Australian, because that seems to be a debate in all west countries right now. So we'll get to that in a sec. But why don't we first talk a little bit about just sort of what do you think the state of the country is at a moment, before we get to the people specifically, what's the state of Australia?
- [02:54]
B
I think this is a very different country than the one I grew up in. I grew up in the 80s and to a certain extent the 90s as well. The world's very different. The west is very different now than it was then. But Australia in particular is. We have, I suppose you would say we are the land of opportunity in many respects. Resources, natural resources, beautiful beaches. And yet for some reason there is this cloud hanging over this country at the moment. And I, and I think it's across the board. I think it's all the way through the country. There is a feeling of pessimism a little bit. And that has changed over the years. I think we've seen that more and more over the last 10 years. Covid, of course, has had a, I think a long lasting impact on the country. I think that many respects the country hasn't recovered from COVID A lot of economic problems, a lot. Businesses just never reopened after lockdowns, particularly in this state. So it is an interesting question. And you know, historically Australians are very laid back people. You know, as you said, the idea of Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee that, that is, and to some extent is, but certainly was what Australians were like when I was growing up. They still exist, but we are seeing an urbanization of the population which has changed that a little bit. And I think people are perhaps a little more, a little more reserved with their behavior.
- [04:17]
A
So how much of that unease that you're talking about is a Covid hangover? Cause one of the most shocking things, I lived in Los Angeles during COVID which was as dystopian as you could get, except for the city we are in right now. We saw videos out of Melbourne that looked like they were coming out of China. So how much of what's going on in this country right now is that people kind of had it good, Great landmass, as you said, laid back, population beautiful. Everyone looks great here. Have this weird, weird authoritarian thing happen. And now the years out of that seem to be what's going on? Well, I guess it depends from an outsider. That's kind of the way I'm seeing it.
- [04:53]
B
And Americans saw that. They saw the images, and we were very conscious of that at the time. And I think it was very important that they did because to me, it reflected some of the things that we don't have in this country that you do in the United States, things like a first Amendment. And so we went through this period during COVID where things were pretty bleak, pretty tough. And for me, that was a very strong wake up call. That was 12 months into this job, into my parliamentary career. And for me, it showed the very frail nature of western democracies, Western liberalism, if you like. Because with the swipe of a pen, parliaments all over the country simply handed off huge blocks of power to our public service, to our bureaucrats who started making decisions for us. So many of the decisions you saw, such as the lockdowns that the city was put into, came at the behest of public servants rather than politicians, which was a very unusual scenario and a very. Almost a little unique to Australia in the way in which the country is made up of states in a federation. Right.
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A
So basically the kind of managerial class very much. You mentioned to me when we sat down a moment ago that you were put in a quarantine for two weeks.
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B
I was. I was coming back from. From. Seems incredible now, but at the time I was coming back from parliament, and the rules in my home state there were that you needed to get a. It's hard to say out loud, but you needed to get a visa, almost like a pass to come home to your own state, which I put in. I gave them all the information and they said, you can't come. And I said, all right, well, I'm coming. And before I knew it, they said, well, you come back, but you have to do two weeks in a hotel. Not dissimilar to this now, that hotel had a big metal fence around it, the middle of the city. It had police downstairs. I wasn't allowed to leave the hotel room. And having tested six times for negative for Covid, Unbelievable. Into an area where there was actually Covid. I can remember vividly. So the most, you know, it was a sort of a parody in a sense, but I can remember vividly going, they would serve you meals. And on the first day I had a knock on the door, Boom, like that. And I sort of woke up and went to the door immediately. And. And then I got a phone call from downstairs. It was Constable, you know, police sergeant something, you got up and got your meal too quickly. The person hadn't cleared the room. Okay, so next time I waited two minutes and I got a phone call saying, you need to go and collect your meal. It's been left out there and that's not within the rules. So, you know, this was an extraordinarily authoritarian approach to the problem. And back to the original question. I do think that's left a mark on Australians. I think for many of us it now feels as though the things that we never thought were possible in the country are possible.
- [07:35]
A
So, okay, so before we get to the what, who is an Australian? What does it mean to be Australian? I have one other question for you first, which is, so you are a member of the Liberal Party here and as we discussed earlier, the word liberal from an American perspective has been completely mucked up because now the people who proclaim to be liberals are the least liberal people, actually. So anytime I go to another country and someone says they're a liberal, I go, well, do they mean they're a liberal, like for individual rights and laissez faire economics and logic and reason, or do they mean liberal like I'm sort of a progressive authoritarian? I think I know your answer to that, but can you, can you explain a little bit, what does it mean to be part of the Liberal Party in Australia?
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B
Well, I'm just waiting for someone to, to agree to being called, you know, authoritarian.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
I am, I am. Actually. That'll be a one for the ages. But look, no, it is, it's a strange use of term. I mean, I think we would look at it, the Liberal Party in the sort of spirit of Milne, you know, like, you know, classical liberalism. Yeah, and that's the way the party was formed. It was really formed as a, you know, as a sort of conglomerate of centre right parties that had a conservative and, you know, a liberal libertarian angle bent, if you like. And they came together after the war and that was the modern Liberal Party quite different. We actually wear the colour blue as the logo as well. So it's quite, you know, you would be, you know, well understood for being mistaken for coming to Australia, seeing blue and liberal and thinking you're dealing with basically the centre left.
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A
Right, right.
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B
But that is not the case. So no, in Australia that's what it means. It's interesting though, in the sense that politics in Australia doesn't quite overlay into the United States. Probably the same in Europe as well, Politics tends to be probably a little more to the centre on both sides. I think, you know, our far left is probably a little closer to the centre and the same with the.
- [09:21]
A
So your far left is what party now?
- [09:23]
B
Well, we would say the Australian Greens. Who are. Who are our furthest left party. I mean, there are others, of course, there are minor parties that always on the ballot, as there are in every country. But in terms of parliamentary representation, the Greens are. They're an environmentalist party that has really drifted into, you know, sort of far left doctrine of, you know, I would say, you know, angles that involve, you know, all sorts of things that aren't related to the environment, immigration, all of that. Yeah, so. So they are certainly. And we do have further right parties than the Liberal Party. We've got a party called One Nation, which is a minor party that. That deals in the sort of nationalist issues, if you like. So, yeah, there's a broad spectrum. I know that's the case in Europe as well. It's not qu. Binary as it is in the U.S. but, you know, if you were overlaying, people would disagree with this. But. But the Liberal Party is probably closest to the Republican Party, I'd say.
- [10:14]
A
Right. Which is funny that that's the point. In America, we basically now have a Republican Party that is pretty much filled with all ex libs and we have a Democrat Party now filled with what I would say are largely kind of crazy people, but we can leave that there. So. Okay, so let me ask you, what does it mean now to be Australian? Because even being here just for a day and wandering around, it's a little hard to tell. In a sense, the bluey sort of Steve Irwin thing maybe is not the perfect encapsulation.
- [10:45]
B
It's a very difficult question to ask because I think it depends. It depends where you're going and where you are in the city. And I mean, if I went back to when I was growing up, I think that the demographic in the city was largely the same as in the country areas. That's not the case anymore. My feeling is that really to get a feel for the. For what is in Australia and you almost need to get out to the country areas, the regional areas, where a lot of what we consider to be Australian is still alive and well. People fly the flag out there. You know, if you come to. Australia is one of the very few countries that still, I think, finds it acceptable to have three different flags on a government building. You know, I notice in the United States, despite, even in places like California where you might see the California flag, you'll still always see the American flag, but here you will see a myriad of, you know, Australian, you know, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags. Yeah, well, I don't have a problem with any of those flags. But there is one flag for the country. In the country you'll see very much the opposite. You'll just see the Australian flag. Now these days the person living the urbanised Australian is quite different. I think they do tend to lean further to the left and they are a mix. They're very multicultural and quite different in the country. I think the Steve Irwin character still exists and I think they're very real. And. But overall the Australian nature is laid back. We are, you know, very outdoors loving people. We're very laid back people I think here are very forgiving as well. The other thing that makes Australians quite unique is they're very apolitical. So, you know, there just isn't the interest in politics. In fact, I was having a conversation on the plane with some young people who had no, just no grasp of it. And that's fine. But that is a very unique. We're not quite as engaged in the political process as. Right.
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A
Which, which in some sense probably led to a lot what happened during COVID because people were kind of checked out.
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B
I think it did. Yeah, I think it did. And you know, it doesn't take much for that authoritarian nature to creep out. Unless, you know, I think Ronald Reagan said it's freedom's only a generation away from being lost or words to that effect. So, you know, we do have that constraint here in Australia and I think people, you know, it would be good to see people more conscious of their freedoms and what's being lost at the moment. I don't think it's being lost across the entire spectrum of the Australian nation at the moment.
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A
So speaking of that, where is Australia as it pertains to immigration right now? Because you guys are a freaking giant landmass that it is its own continent. Most people don't realize that you have no, you're in, you're. You're an island, you're a very large island. You have no borders with anyone else. It seems like this place should be a fortress, which in some sense it was kind of set up to be. And yet it seems like there's also a lot of problems on the immigration.
- [13:23]
B
Yeah, look, I mean it's, it's been historically, I mean it's quite interesting, you know, backlog of, of how the Australia came to be where it is. It's probably too long for today's conversation but essentially we were, we were settled by, by the English and the Irish and the Scottish or out of Europe. And that continued really largely until around about the 60s or 70s when we started seeing, you know, our post war too, of course, where we started seeing influxes from Europe there was in fact a white Australia policy for a long period of time. And that all changed in the latter half of the 20th century when we started seeing more immigration from Asia and now in recent times from the Middle east and so on. But you're quite right. I mean we had a population when I was growing up of around about just under 20 million. It's about 28 or thereabouts now, depending on where you look in a country.
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A
That'S the size of the United States, it's very close. 350 million.
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B
Yeah, it's pretty close. Now the difference with Australia is most of our, you know, arable land is on the coasts, right? So there's a lot of landmass in the middle where there's minerals and a bit of farming, but not a huge amount else. Although they probably scream at me for that. But that is the fact. So most of it, the most of the population is centered in those, you know, those urban areas. So it's sort of a little bit misleading in the sense that we do have a large mass. The thing we do have is resources. We have plenty of water up north, we've got minerals everywhere, We've got some of the largest stockpiles of uranium and coal and iron and gas. We just don't use them because we are under the thumb of this green ideology which is telling us to sort of self harm by not using it and not burning it and so forth. But certainly in the recent two or three years we've seen a massive influx of people. We think there are almost as many as 2 million new immigrants, which on a population of 27 is a significant chunk which has been a policy of this labor government, including recently allowing the widows or brides from Isis to return to Australia, which is a very, very dangerous and controversial thing to be doing, of course. And so the dynamics change.
- [15:28]
A
What is their argument? In a place that has many resources that is this big, what is the argument? So we're going to bring in 10% of the population in two years.
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B
Well, the argument that would be used is that Covid, there was almost a moratorium on immigration and we need to catch up. So that's the argument. And the argument is also always about skilled labour and we don't have the, you know, we don't have the, you know, the expertise in certain areas. The truth of the matter is that I think people are just coming in and working, you know, you know, normal jobs. And of course the net effect of that in many respects has been a press on housing, a press on living standards. And, you know, there are stories in Australia now of people, you know, places like Sydney and Melbourne lining up with 200 people for a single, you know, bedroom apartment. So the effect on the cost of living and the lifestyle in Australia has been quite dramatic in a short amount of time. We're all very worried about that. I'm very worried about it. And of course, you know, this country was built on immigration. So this is, as they say, not about hating the player, it's about the game. The numbers are extraordinary at the moment. The United States had this same problem. It was illegal immigration. This is legal, illegal immigration. But the effects are the same. And you know, it's, it's a, you have to be in control of your borders in a country like this. And I'm very worried about where we're headed.
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A
Where does the kind of guilt about the Aboriginal population fit into this? We obviously have a version, every Western nation, in some sense, version of it. We have a version of it in the United States.
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B
Yeah, look, it's really interesting. I saw a clip this week on social media of a journalist from our ABC going around and talking to people in the 50s and 60s about whether Aboriginal children should swim in a swimming pool with white children. Now, if you believe the left, you would say that we were. They would say that we were a country based on racism and have always been. This is black and white footage. These people, though, responded by saying, of course they should. Why wouldn't they? They're our brothers and sisters and so on and so forth. So this construct that Australia is a racist nation has been brewing for a long period of time. It's in overdrive at the moment. I, I think we're the least racist nation in the world, actually. I think people, Australians, as I said, with that laid back nature, are very warm and welcoming. But the left have found a way to achieve their goals. The classic example is the voice to Parliament referendum, which we had. Now, referendum in Australia is a serious thing. It's changing our constitution. I know it happens in the US too, with amendments and so forth. But a couple of years ago, the government proposed enshrining an Aboriginal voice in Parliament which would, you know, would be sort of effectively, they would argued, but effectively a third chamber of our government. Right The Australian people shot it down something like 65% voted no, depending on where you go. And but you know, the rationale that was used was this rationale of guilt. You know, you've stepped on these people for years. You know, you need to give them a voice. Of course it was never true. And in fact, many Aboriginal people and groups, including my friend Senator Jacinda Nambajima Price, who, who was a leading voice against it, is Aboriginal herself and spoke against it because it's the very essence of division, effectively, you know, giving certain people certain rights and certain categories. So we've had to fight with a lot of that and I think Australians are waking up to it. But that ethos is alive and well in the left and they want to push that division.
- [18:55]
A
How much of this also is now that there's an integration problem for the second generation of people that have come here? I was reading even this morning about this machete ban that just, just was instituted in the last six months or so here. And it sounds like most of the violence is not from illegals. It's from second generation immigrants. Meaning like 15 year olds whose parents came here and feel different somehow or other.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah, look, I think that's always been a bit of a problem. When I was growing up, there were complaints about, you know, knife use from, you know, immigrant second generation immigrants from Southeast Asia. So I think it has always been an issue, but certainly I think it is. This is one of the real world effects of this problem is people do take time to accustom, they do acclimatize and become accustomed to their new environments. And many are coming from very dangerous places like, you know, some of the war torn parts of Africa. So, you know, it's a very difficult balance to mix, particularly when you throw such large numbers at a community that's not necessarily geared up for that. And as I said, I mean, Australia is a, is a sort of a, a deceptively small country in a very large landmass. And I think we're starting to see that play out.
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A
Where does the Islamist part of this fall into place? Because when I tweeted out first that I was coming here, a lot of people said, dave, you're gonna have to watch out especially. Well, they mostly told me about this city.
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B
Yeah, look, I mean, there certainly has been a wave of crime. You know, machete ban is one of them. Look, I don't know whether it could be honestly be attributed to any one group or other. I wouldn't say that it could be, honestly, but, but you know, I mean this is the nature of taking people from different parts of the world. I mean, you know, sometimes cultures don't, don't always mix and we have to be careful of that. We really do. So. But look, Melbourne, Melbourne is going through its own problems. It's got a very left leaning government, has had for a very long period of time and you know, if you look around, I mean it's a sort of a city that looks like it's, it's in trouble. Honestly.
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A
It's funny because I, I was expecting that and have, I've only been in these few blocks. We happen to be in a particularly nice area and so far I haven't seen the trouble part but everyone keeps telling me about it. So I believe it's there. I just haven't seen it.
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B
I don't think, I mean, I think it's all, it's all relative as well. I mean there'd be parts of the US and parts, I go to blue cities in the US you'd be, you'll be, you'll be well acclimatized to it, I'm sure. But I, you know, we're just not used to it. It's always been a very trouble free country. You know, we, and I think that's been part of the problem is we have thought that our institutions will always serve us well. We've always thought that there will never be trouble in this country and that we don't have this sort of social cohesion problem because we haven't. We've had people that have mixed. We had Greeks, Italians and people from other parts of Europe that came here after the war and would have been lumbered with many of the same problems and arguments but have assimilated well after a generation or two. So we're just not used to it. And that's just a feature of having large numbers coming in at one time, I would say.
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A
So you guys have a Labor majority government right now. You. I'm not sure when we're airing this interview, but I believe on this Monday, this coming Monday, your Prime Minister is gonna be meeting with Donald Trump, apparently so in the States. What would you like Donald Trump to say to him?
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B
Oh, well, I mean, look, well, what we need actually is to keep the partnership going. I mean, ultimately that's really what we need. I mean we, you know, we think we are an island away from everything, but we have, you know, neighbours that are not necessarily friendly all the time. So I think the most important thing is that we keep that going. We have a, there's this long running debate in Australia about Aukus, which is an alliance between the UK and Australia, and, you know, military equipment and submarines in particular, which Australia is looking to buy. So, look, I hope that all goes well because we do need it. What's been interesting though is that Australia has historically, for reasons of the past, had a connection to the United Kingdom. That all sort of changed back, swung to the US after Vietnam when the United Kingdom, United States became our main ally, perhaps. And certainly in terms of military equipment and transfer, that was the main thing. We're seeing a little bit of a swing with this labor government away from the Trump administration, I think now back towards the sort of the, the European elites who have perhaps more in common politically.
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A
So I assume you're not happy with that.
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B
I'm not happy with that at all. No, I don't. I think, you know, I'm a very strong believer in the US Australian alliance and I think we need it. And, and I hope that continues. But I would say that that's a challenge at the moment because I think the Trump administration, as they unashamedly are a very America first and wanna know what we can do for them as much as anything else. So let's hope that continues. But I don't. We just hope for poor old Albo the lights don't get switched off. Cause when the lights go off in the White House, you're in trouble.
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A
You're in a lot of trouble. And Trump is not above shutting the lights out.
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B
He is not above it at all.
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A
What are we, what, what else should we know about this country that, that we don't know? I mean, we've, we've talked mostly about problems, actually. But it is an incredible country.
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B
It's an incredible country.
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A
I mentioned to you that I, I was supposed to come back from my first book tour, which was going to be the only international stops we were doing because I so fell in love with it when I was here in 2018. So I'm so happy to be back.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So give me, give me some of the positives.
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B
Well, there's a lot. I mean, how long have you got? We'll probably take the rest of the week to tell him. But honestly, I mean, it is a great part of the, part of the world down here. You're close to Asia, so there's all of that other side of it, but certainly inside our, our boundaries. I mean, you can't go past the beaches, not so much in Melbourne. It's a bit, you know, it's a bit, it's a bit cloudy. In fact, we should be all right. But other parts of the country, you know, you've got tropical Queensland, you've got Sydney, which has the most incredible beaches. So do Perth. Some of the best metropolitan beaches you'll find anywhere in the world in South Australia, where I'm from. It's, it's the wine regions. It's, it's actually like going to Europe without being in Europe.
- [24:48]
A
Yeah. And I had a great, I had a great Australian Shiraz last night.
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B
Yeah. And they're all there and it's great. And look, I think the most, the most impressive thing about this country though is the laid back manner we, we have. You know, I sort of, it is a little bit like a theme park. We have thought that the world is as friendly and as generous as Australians are. Every time we travel. You see Aussies, when they travel, I think sometimes get themselves into trouble because they just think the world operates like it does when you go down the road here. And of course it's a big bad world out, so. But you know, in terms of a friendly, you know, friendly place to come. And they love Americans too. They'll tell you they don't, but they do. Yeah. And there's a lot of affinity with American.
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A
Why do they tell you they don't?
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B
Because, you know, to be, yeah. Aussies like to be their own, their own thing. But they'll, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll say all sorts of things and that. But of course the, the, the friendship is real and, and they love hearing about America and they love the connection to America. So Americans are, are very, very welcome in Australia, I have to say. So it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a good thing. But the other thing I'd say is that, you know, you just can't be frightened of the wildlife. Yeah, there are, there are no, you know, we haven't seen a single.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Anything in the middle of Melbourne.
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A
Although we are in the city right now.
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B
It has happened. There are times when Americans think it's nonsense, but there are times when kangaroos not probably not here, but certainly in, in Adelaide I have seen it in, in very, very built up areas. You will see a kangaroo coming through.
- [26:11]
A
So when I take my guys in Sydney, we're going to go kangaroo preserve and the koalas, do I have to, what else do I have to warn them about over there?
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B
Almost everything. I just wouldn't touch or get near anything.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And there are some big animals around that you go up north and those. Those crocodiles are serious. No. And which made Steve Irwin all the more incredible that he was happy to.
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A
We're from Florida. We got a lot of gators.
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B
A lot of gators. Ours are bigger.
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A
Spider situation.
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B
I mean, spiders are out of control. We're getting them all the time. My wife has found two at home and I did remind her this morning that we live in Australia. So, you know, you're not getting away from the spiders here, but there are some really nasty ones. Anything with red or white on them.
- [26:47]
A
Just step around, step away. Does this qualify as Australia 101? Did I?
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B
This is Australia 101.
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A
Is there anything else that we should.
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B
We covered pretty much all of it, but what else can we cover? Nothing, I don't think. I think we've covered it all.
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A
You can only give Americans so much at once. I feel like this was a little.
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B
Bit of a download.
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A
It was a pleasure, Alex.
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B
Thank you. Absolutely. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.
- [27:12]
C
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