Correcting the Liberal Myths of George Washington | Presidents Series | Andrew Klavan

Summary

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The Rubin Report | "Correcting the Liberal Myths of George Washington | Presidents Series | Andrew Klavan"

Date: February 18, 2026
Host: Dave Rubin
Guest: Andrew Klavan (Host of The Andrew Klavan Show)

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Episode Overview

In this President’s Week special, Dave Rubin sits down with Andrew Klavan to challenge modern misconceptions about George Washington. They explore Washington’s character, his unique virtues, his pivotal role in founding the United States, and the recurring critique regarding his status as a slave owner. The conversation seeks to separate myth from reality, contextualize Washington’s accomplishments, and reflect on how current attitudes toward American history eclipse the magnitude of the country’s founding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. George Washington’s Character and Its Relevance Today

• Washington’s Moral Superiority

  • Klavan opens by asserting that Washington was “a better person than you are” ([00:00], [02:01]), emphasizing that understanding greatness in historical figures requires humility toward the limitations of our presentism.
  • He believes Washington’s awareness of slavery’s immorality and his decision to free his slaves upon his death set him apart from other slaveholding founders ([00:00], [02:01]).

• The Sword Surrender: An Act of Virtue

  • Klavan highlights Washington’s “handing over a sword to the civilian authorities after the war” ([02:01]) as a rare and extraordinary relinquishment of power, comparing it to historical figures like Cincinnatus but noting Washington “gave away an empire.”

2. Misconceptions and Modern Criticism

• Slavery and Statues

  • Klavan repeatedly addresses criticism regarding Washington’s slaveholding, contextualizing it within the norms of his era and pointing out Washington’s unique steps toward emancipation ([02:01]).
  • “All the people who tear down statues, all the people who burn the flag don't understand how bad they are and what they would have been like in this situation” ([04:55])—Andrew Klavan.

• The Problem with Modern Historical Framing

  • Both Rubin and Klavan critique modern museums (like Mount Vernon and Monticello) for overemphasizing slavery at the expense of a fuller historical narrative ([07:51], [25:38]).
  • Klavan: “We want to hear...about the slaves...but I don't want to only hear about that. I want to hear about this miraculous thing that happened that made even people who are descended from slaves glad they live here.” ([22:20])

3. Washington’s Virtue, Faith, and Discipline

• Self-Made Gentleman

  • Washington “dedicated himself to becoming that man,” self-educating in etiquette and discipline ([09:36]).
  • Memorable anecdote: When Gouverneur Morris tries to treat Washington casually, he’s so intimidated by Washington’s presence he “wouldn't do it again for anything on earth” ([10:49]).

• Faith and Morality

  • Washington was a man of Anglican faith, speaking more of “Providence” than overt Christian terms, and believed the new government depended on the people's morality ([11:41]).
  • “Providence is God's will on your country, and you have to deserve it.” ([12:03])—Andrew Klavan.

4. Washington’s Relevance for America’s Present Fragility

• What Would Washington Think?

  • Klavan assesses the state of the nation entering its 250th year, believing the country’s current divisions, high taxes, and threats to free speech would deeply worry Washington ([14:51]).
  • “I think under the Biden administration, the attacks on free speech, I think would have been appalling to him. And the fact our press, which I think is corrupt, is not as bad as the press was then...But...it's so monocultural, all of the press is really on one side.” ([14:51])

• Importance of National Character and Unity

  • Most Americans, says Klavan, could agree on much, but “we're kept apart by communicators who make us look more divided” ([14:51]).
  • He invokes Reagan: “Every generation has to relearn freedom...and I think Washington would have agreed with that.” ([14:51])

5. Washington as a Unifying Figure Among Geniuses

• Not the Greatest Thinker, But the Greatest Leader
  • While not a philosophical giant like Jefferson or Adams, Washington “embodied the American man” and united the diverse, argumentative Founders ([19:51]).
  • “All of them stopped when Washington came into the room...he's the necessary man. Without him, the rest of the country’s not going to happen.” ([19:51])—Andrew Klavan

6. Washington’s Example: Presidency, Precedent, and Human Limits

• Setting Standards by Stepping Down

  • Washington’s voluntary departure after two terms set a norm for peaceful transfers of power ([21:18]).
  • “Why are we so sure of our army in this country?...Because George Washington handed his sword over to Annapolis. That's why.” ([21:52])—Andrew Klavan

• Personal Hardships and Humanity

  • The myth of “wooden teeth” is debunked; his dental pain is recounted as a marker of how much he bore personally while shaping a nation ([26:37]).
  • Klavan: “Anybody who honestly looks back on his life will wake up at three o'clock in the morning in a sweat at some of the things he's done...He just didn’t.” ([26:55])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Washington’s Unique Greatness & Moral Humility

  "George Washington was a better man than you are. By which I don't mean than Dave Rubin...he was a better man...than everyone."
  —Andrew Klavan ([02:01])

• On Modern Criticisms of Washington

  "All the people who tear down statues, all the people who burn the flag don't understand how bad they are and what they would have been like in this situation."
  —Andrew Klavan ([04:55])

• On American Political Genius

  "If you read the Federalist Papers, you think like, oh, these guys knew everything about politics there is to know. They knew all the basics about who people are, what they're like...But here's the thing. They were all different...Washington...embodied them all."
  —Andrew Klavan ([19:51])

• Virtue as the Foundation of Freedom

  "You cannot have the wild freedoms that enslave you...the most freedom comes to the people who are the most moral."
  —Andrew Klavan ([12:03])

• Washington’s Sovereign Example

  “He set that standard and it became part of our zeitgeist, part of our blood, that. That's the way we behave.”
  —Andrew Klavan ([22:20])

• The Lost Art of Virtue and Perspective

  "Nobody is naturally like a gentleman. Nobody is naturally virtuous. He made himself that. And that just left this stamp on the country."
  —Andrew Klavan ([25:38])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Washington’s Slaveholding and Moral Context – [00:00], [02:01]
• The Surrender of Power (“Gave away an Empire”) – [02:01]
• Flawed Modern Framing of Founders – [07:51], [25:38]
• Washington’s Personal Discipline and Virtue – [09:36]
• On Faith and the Necessity of Morality – [11:41]
• Speculation on Washington’s View of America in 2026 – [14:51]
• Political Diversity of the Founders – [19:51]
• Presidency Precedents and the Deep State – [21:18]
• On Debunking the Wooden Teeth Myth – [26:37]

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Tone & Style

The conversation blends insightful historical analysis with humor (joking about wooden teeth), directness, and a shared reverence for the Founders’ morality. Klavan especially adopts a reflective tone, urging humility, gratitude, and a deeper recognition of the exceptional qualities embodied by Washington. Rubin keeps the conversation lively, personal, and accessible for contemporary listeners.

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Summary Takeaway

Andrew Klavan and Dave Rubin urge listeners to move beyond simplistic, presentist judgments of George Washington and instead appreciate the intentional virtue, discipline, and sacrifice that defined America’s first president—and, by extension, the country’s foundational idea of liberty. They warn that current cultural and historical narratives risk erasing the miraculous and hard-fought achievements that made the United States exceptional, emphasizing that freedom and unity depend on remembering—and aspiring to—the standards set by Washington.

Transcript

[A]

We've heard so much garbage from the people who hate this country and the people who think this country shouldn't exist or think it's stolen land or think it should be better or think it, you know, it's not the most brilliant political idea in the history of mankind because that is what America is. It is the best political idea anybody ever had. And they'll say, well, George Washington held slaves. And if you understand that he's a better person than you are, then you understand that if you had been in his position, you would have done something much worse. Because, of course, he knew that slavery was wrong. He wanted it to be gradually gotten rid of. And alone among the slaveholding founders, which was not all of the founders, but alone among the slaveholding founders, he freed his slaves upon his death.

[B]

All right, I'm Dave Rubin, and in honor of Presidents Week, we're talking about a different president of the United States every day this week. And joining me today to talk about our first president, George Washington, is the host of the Andrew Clavin Show. Andrew Clavin, who I'm told, I'm told also has wooden teeth.

[A]

True or false? I have them in my drawer, yes. But I just keep them there. It's like a fetish. It's a fetish thing.

[B]

Andrew, it's good to see you. I love having you on to talk about all the craziness of the day, but I really thought for President's Week this week, we could just talk about some guys who aren't with us anymore who maybe were better, maybe were a little better than you and me. Maybe we're a little better than the politicians of the day and everything else. And, of course, George Washington, who lived an extraordinary life for many, many reasons. So why don't I just let you kind of take it away, what you think sort of the main takeaways or wherever you want to start with his life, and then. And then we can dive into some of the specific. Because there's wooden teeth aside, there's just so much there.

[A]

Obviously, you know, you just hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned, because first of all, you can't understand the Founding without George Washington, because there would be no Founding without George Washington. And you can't understand George Washington unless you understand exactly what you just said, which is that George Washington was a better man than you are. By which I don't mean than Dave Rubin, because that would be damning with faint praise. But, I mean, he was a better man, I accept, than everyone and Like, I think the reason that's so important and the reason it helps you understand things. And it's a very hard thing to grasp, you know, because all of us want to think we're good people and we're really, really not that great, but Washington was. And the reason is that means that when you look back on the past and you think, well, George Washington did something wrong, you realize what, you would have done something worse if he did something great. You realize, whoa, wait a minute. This guy has done something that no one else has done. Key among them. And if you have to start, you have to start somewhere. It's handing over a sword to the civilian authorities after the war. And look, the guy is just won a revolution against an empire, right? I mean, and he is the most admired man in the country. And it's pretty clear right away that the country's going to expand and expand. He's giving away an empire. And they compare this to Cincinnatus, who was a Roman statesman back in the day, was called away from his farm to fight a tribe. First of all, they're comparing to a guy who lived 500 years before Jesus, you know, so it's like, you gotta go back a long way. And secondly, you know, he won a battle and he went home to his farm. And that's great. This guy gave away an empire. He gave it away because he believed in the principle for which he was fighting and was even uncomfortable when they called him back to be president. Was kind of uncomfortable. He worried about his own inner life, whether he was succumbing to ambition. And the king is said. The King George is said to have said, if he does that, he will have been the greatest man in the world. Whether he said that or not, it's literally true. And the reason I start there, the reason I start with this, is because we've heard so much garbage from the people who hate this country and the people who think this country shouldn't exist or think it's stolen land or think it should be better or think it, you know, it's not the most brilliant political idea in the history of mankind, because that is what America is. It is the best political idea anybody ever had. And they'll say, well, George Washington held slaves. And if you understand that he's a better person than you are, then you understand that if you had been in his position, you would have done something much worse. Because of course he knew that slavery was wrong. He wanted it to be gradually gotten rid of. And alone among the slaveholding founders, which was not all of the founders, but alone among the slaveholding founders. He freed his slaves upon his death. And the thing that always fascinates me about this, knew it was wrong, freed the slaves in his death, did things that. There were times when he would complain about why the slaves on his land didn't work as hard as he worked. There were times when a slave would escape and he would hire people to go find them because he couldn't understand why they would do that. And that is revelatory because a better man than you are couldn't see outside of his time. So all the people who tear down statues, all the people who burn the flag don't understand how bad they are and what they would have been like in this situation. George Washington was possibly the greatest political human being who ever lived. And the thing is the country's always been a crazy place. You go back in history, it's kind of reassuring when you're reading the newspaper, this place is crazy. Read a little history because this place has always been a crazy place. And one of the ways.

[B]

Right, we think we've. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[A]

Well, one of the ways it's always been crazy is there's always been severe divisions in the way people saw the country from the very beginning. So you've got a guy who's really a revolutionary, a radical like Thomas Jefferson on the one hand, and then you've got a guy like John Adams who really is thinking maybe we're gonna need a king or somebody he wants to call George Washington, your Excellency. And only, only a man like George Washington could bring these people together because of what he embodied, not because of what he believed, but because of what he embodied. Because they could both see the future of the country in him. So, you know, I live in a place near, near D.C. where you can walk down Washington street in Georgetown, past George Washington University to the Washington monument in Washington D.C. and, and that tells you something about the way people saw him. And it wasn't a lie, you know, because just think of all the other revolutionary leaders, whether a semi benign one like Napoleon or the non benign ones like, you know, like Mao. They never give up power, they never let it go. It's the revolution. We're all going to be free. Oh yeah. But now, you know, I'm going to be king forever. You know, only George Washington said, we won, you're free, here's my sword, I'm going home. That to me makes him as great a man as history provides. And I think when you start to see that you start to understand what a gift this country is. I would tell you it's a gift from God. I do not think a man like that just appears. I don't think he appears at the same time as minds like Adams and Jefferson. I think when you see that, to me, it doesn't exclude people on the left, it doesn't exclude people on the right. It excludes everyone who thinks this country shouldn't be here. It just excludes everyone who thinks. Thinks the country itself is a bad thing.

[B]

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[A]

No, they couldn't. They couldn't do that with Washington. They can't. They still try to do it. You know, there's a lot of money in, you know, rejiggering history and saying, oh, I've got, you know, I've got the skinny on this. I've got the scandal on this. They can't do it with Washington. They keep trying, but it comes down to the fact that he was a good man. And he was. And he was a good man man for a really specific reason. And this is also incredibly important, I think, in understanding him. He was a good man because he wanted to be. And this is something as an ancient man at this point. I tell young people all the time, you know, figure out what you want. Because a lot of times in life, barring tragedy, barring really bad luck, people get what they want. And the thing is, if you don't get it, maybe you didn't really want it. And that's a clue. George Washington starts out as a young man because his father dies. He doesn't get to go to an English school. He doesn't get to be schooled in Zen. Essentially, the epitome of class was to be an Englishman. His brothers get that, but he doesn't get it. And he makes himself into that. Anyway. In his study book, he starts to copy down rules for behavior out of a book that gave rules for how a gentleman behaved. And he dedicated himself to becoming that man, to becoming a man who was. When he walked into the room, he was very tall. He was taller than everybody else. And some people would joke, well, that's why everybody pays attention. But it wasn't. It was because he taught himself with this iron discipline how to behave like a gentleman. There's a hilarious story, and I don't know if this story is true. I'm not sure. It's kind of a half true story. I think Governor Morris said that was his actual first name. And Alexander Hamilton made a bet. And Morris said, I'm gonna go treat Washington just like an ordinary guy. And walked up to him and slapped him on the shoulder and said, george, it's great to see you looking so good. You're just looking perfect. Help. And Washington gave him such a look that Morris returned to Hamilton and said, well, I did it, but I wouldn't do it again for anything on earth. Because he was such a presence. He made himself that man. And that's an amazing thing. He dedicated himself to virtue so speaking of virtue.

[B]

So he was obviously also a man of faith. And it's well documented that he really felt that the system. He wasn't the only founder to feel this, but that the system that they were creating, a system of individual rights and liberty, could only work for a moral people. The word of something we have no idea how to grapple with in a modern sense.

[A]

Now, you know, this is. This is a really. It's a really good point. I mean, he would talk. You know, again, some historians have tried to prove it wasn't true, but it obviously was. He was a typical Anglican at the time. They became the Episcopalians who've now become something that has nothing to do with Christianity. But there's still Anglicans like me who.

[B]

Different show, Clavin.

[A]

Different show, different show. But he became. But he was an Anglican. He would go to church, you know, once a month, which was pretty normal for the time. He would pray, but he wouldn't talk about. He wouldn't use Christian language. So he wouldn't say, you know, jesus Christ wants us to do this. He would say providence all the time. And he talked a lot about how you have to deserve providence. Providence is God's will on your country, and you have to deserve it. And he talked as others John Adams looked at the constitution, said, this is a constitution for moral people. And Washington was essentially saying the same thing and warning the people that the providence that they had, the good things that had happened, chief among them, winning the war against an empire that would have killed them all had they not won. You know, he warned them that this arises out of goodness. And this is the reason that conservative people, or at least people who want to conserve freedom, which is what I am, I'm somebody who wants to conserve American freedom, start to feel a little bit moralistic because you realize, you know, you can't have both. You cannot have the wild freedoms that enslave you. You know, anything goes. Sex lives, drug lives, all that stuff, those things enslave you. And once you're enslaved, you gotta crawl to the government for help. And once you can't control yourself and once you become a criminal, the government has to put you down. So the most freedom comes to the people who are the most moral, the people who say, okay, you know, I've got all these desires, all these urges, but I'm going to channel them into things that are helpful to mank. You know, I'm going to channel them into my work. I'm going to channel them into my marriage, into my children, and that's the man who is built for freedom. And so if it sometimes seems like conservatives are shaking their finger, wagging their finger at people, it's really because they're connecting the dots, as Washington did. How you deserve the providence of freedom. Why to whom does God give freedom? And he gives it to people who behave in a moral way.

[B]

I will now ask you an impossible question because you don't have a crystal, crystal ball or a magic ball or a flux capacitor, as far as I know, or any of those things. We're rolling into our 250th anniversary. It's, it's pretty good. I mean, you know, we're pretty young, but 250, that's, that's pretty solid. What do you think through his writings and what we know about George Washington, he would think of the state of this country?

[A]

I think he would be. I mean, remember again, this, the country was crazy when he was president. You know, the country's been crazy from the start. You have a free people, you got a crazy country. I still, I think there are things that would deeply, deeply worry him. I think the first of all, you know, these guys, they raise the tax on tea a couple of pennies and they put the whole country, country apart. I, I think a country in which people are paying the kind of taxes they pay now would be upsetting to all of the. I think what happened. Not to make this too political, but I think under the Biden administration, the attacks on free speech, I think would have been appalling to him. And the fact our press, which I think is corrupt, is not as bad as the press was then. The press was just an instrument of actual vileness, which would say anything about anybody then, which is less true now. But I think it would be disturbing to him that it's so monocultural that all of the press is really on one side. All of the media is on one side. I think the extreme nature of our parties would be disturbing. You know, we're not dealing. When I was a kid, we were dealing, as Barack Obama once said, dishonestly. I think we were fighting over the 50 yard line. We had people who wanted to a little bit more welfare and people who wanted a little bit more freedom. You know, that was the argument. Now I think we have people who are basically declaring that the country shouldn't be here. Like the, you know, singers who got up at the Grammys and said, this is stolen land, so therefore no one can be illegal. I think that that would be troubling to him. I think the intolerance on the right, some of the people in the far right would be as troubling to him as the absolute moronic ignorance and radicalism of the people on the left. I sometimes joke, you were talking about Mount Vernon, where I go off, and then his tomb is above ground. I told my wife that was because he wanted to be able to watch us spinning, watch him spinning in his grave. I think the country, right at this minute, I mean, look, when he was president, the country was fragile as could be. It was just getting started. Nobody even knew what it was and what it was going to look like. But I think the country is in a fragile state right now. And what's sad to me is that it's unnecessary. I think that 70% of the people in this country could agree on 70% of the issues or at least compromise on 70% of the issues. And I think we're kept apart by communicators who make us look more divided than we are. And so I think that would worry him. I mean, when Ronald Reagan said every generation has to relearn freedom, I think he was absolutely right, and I think Washington would have agreed with that. This is not what most countries are like. Most countries do not have this level of freedom. You can't explain, I lived in England for seven years. You can't explain, bottom down, bottom up government to a European. They nod, they smile, they think they get it, but they just think we're crazy. They think that's nuts. You can't do that. There's gotta be somebody at the top telling everybody what to do. They do not understand what freedom means.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah. And they were so different. See, this is the thing. This is why I say the country's a godsend. You just don't get those kind of people. They were geniuses. I mean, if you read the Federalist Papers, you think like, oh, these guys knew everything about politics there is to know. They knew all the basics about who people are, what they're like. The insight into humanity on any page of the Federalist Papers is so much deeper than anything you'll read over 50 days in our press. But here's the thing. They were all different. They all had different points of view. Like I said, Jefferson was far more radical than Adams, and they were all were looking at different things. But Washington, who was not by any stretch the greatest thinker among them, embodied them all. You know, that is the thing. He embodied the American man, and that's unique. There was no one else like that. And the fact that they were all brought together, all these feisty, arguing geniuses, wanted to scream at each other and pound the table and do this law or that law. All of them stopped when Washington came into the room, and some of them resented it, but most of them just kind of thought, no, he's George Washington without him, he's the necessary man. Without him, the rest of the country's not going to happen. And think about that for a minute. The guy embodied something that they all admired and all wanted to and all knew was a vision of the country walking, you know.

[B]

Right. And he genuinely lived it. Because as you pointed out, I mean, not only did he, okay, so they wanted him to be president and in charge of the army at the exact same time of a nascent country. He also stepped down after two terms and he didn't have to.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which is another thing that, you know, Trump's always joking about running again and this turn, another. But we have, you know, Congress, people that have been there for 40 years making a gajillion. And in essence, you know, that ultimately becomes what the deep state is. These people who are just in positions of power forever doing things for themselves rather than for the people. So he just. He actually did embody it.

[A]

Not only that, he set the standard. Right. In what other country? Now it's a law that you have to step down after two terms, but people step down until Franklin Roosevelt. They all did that because Washington did it. Why are we so sure of our army in this country? We love our soldiers. We love them because we know they're not going to turn. Turn against us and dominate us and take away our rights. They're going to defend our rights. Why? Because George Washington handed his sword over to Annapolis. That's why.

[B]

They're like.

[A]

They are. He set that standard and it became part of our zeitgeist, part of our blood, that. That's the way we behave. And even the way he managed the war, which was remarkable. You know, another thing they compared to a Roman general, because they couldn't find a good comparison, which was by kind of not fighting, he was like. Like he couldn't fight the British. He just kept. He fought a guerrilla war against them, essentially avoiding them. But think about this. He's in New York, he loses New York, he realizes he's gotta escape, and a fog rolls in and he escapes in the fog. He's pressed back into, you know, into the country, and he turns and he crosses the Delaware. This is another thing we think, oh, yeah, crossing the Delaware. I've seen the picture, know about it. But people don't realize what that was. The incredible, you know, he had three generals, I believe two other generals who were supposed to go with him and just copped out. They just didn't go. He crosses just to get a victory because he knows the people need a victory. And he gets a remarkable victory after crossing the Delaware on Christmas Day. All of that stuff is kind of built into our system. All of that stuff becomes what we think of as virtue. You could have said, well, that was dangerous. You could have said, that was really stepping out of line. If he'd lost, it would have been everything. That would have been the whole country down the drain. But all of that stuff is just part of us. And one of the things that, to me, I think might, above all Trouble Washington, it certainly troubles me is that we've now been schooled in ignorance about who we are, where we came from, why these people are great. I'm not a. You know, there's a story my friend Jeff Anderson has been writing about in City Journal and in the Wall Street Journal. There's a. The house. Before there was a White House in Philadelphia, there was the house where the President lived. It's called the President's House now. And Washington and Adams were. I think Adams went to the White House later. I think they were both there. There was an exhibit and of, I believe, 30 plaques, 25 of them were about slavery. And. And accused Washington of being a bad guy and, you know, tricking people and being deceptive. And so I. With. With. Because of Jeff's writing and because of the administration, they took this stuff out, you know, they brought it down to a place where it was reasonable. We want to hear. I want to hear about the. The slaves. You know, I think that's a part of our history, but I don't want to only hear about that. I want to hear about this miraculous thing that happened that made even people who are descended from slaves glad they live here. You know, and that's. And that's a fact. And. And the governor, Josh Shapiro, complains. Oh, they're whitewashing American history. You know, it's not whitewashing American history. We understand there were bad things. People do bad things. You know, all people do bad things. All countries do bad things. But what is unique about this country is the freedom that they. The system of freedom that they created and the feeling of freedom, because they all said the Constitution is just a piece of parchment. It won't protect us if that freedom isn't written on our hearts. The guy who wrote it on our hearts is George Washington because of the way he behaved, because what he turned himself into. Right. Nobody is naturally like a gentleman. Nobody is naturally virtuous. He made himself that. And that just left this stamp on the country, you know, I mean, and.

[B]

And by the way, you mentioned Mount Vernon. And yes, as I. As I said, you go there and they do, I think, spend a disproportionate amount of time talking about slavery. And if you. And really, if you go to Monticello, which I'm sure you've been to, which was Jefferson's home. I mean, the tour there is. I would. It's at least last time I've done it, I think three or four times. Last time I was there, it was probably about 60 or 70% about slavery, which is the height of irony considering he was writing the laws to free the slaves and was also inventing things. And you know, you see his ice chest that he created and it's like this guy was just beyond imagination, brilliant. And on top of everything else. And I guess, cause I started with a joke, maybe it's sort of funny, but it was also kind of tragic. I mean the wooden teeth thing, if you've seen them, they've been at the Smithsonian and I think there's a few of them around. I think there were three or four sets of them. I mean the guy was also in a pretty severe amount of pain a lot of the time. And, and just even having that back then while trying to do this could not have been easy. He didn't have all the advances of science and novocaine and everything else.

[A]

Yeah, no, he, I mean, I, I, I'm not sure that these were actually wooden, but I remember. Were they?

[B]

Yeah, well, I, I think they say they're, I'm gonna Google it, I'm gonna do a Google while you're here. Talk for a second.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because they believe, they describe them as the wooden teeth, but is there, Let me hear, I'm gonna, you go.

[A]

But I think, yeah, all of this stuff is true, but just the fact that, look, he was a human being, we all know what that's like. We all know you have desires, you have things. Look back on your life. Anybody who honestly looks back on his life will wake up at three o' clock in the morning in a sweat at some of the things he's done because of desire. Desire for money, desire for sex, desire for fame, whatever it is. We've done terrible things. He just didn't. And that to me is a remarkable thing because he trained himself to be that guy. Guy.

[B]

You are correct. They called them wooden teeth, which I now remember seeing at the Smithsonian. So there were several sets of them. They started calling them wooden teeth because they became so discolored. But they were made of something. Yeah. So a lot of people describe them as being made out of wood, but they were not.

[A]

I, I, I'll take 18th century dental work for $50.

[B]

Claving. You're the best. Happy President's Week, my friend.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

It's great to see you on the other side.