Dark Future Predictions & Exposing the Truth About Australia’s Past | Tony Abbott

Summary

The Rubin Report – "Dark Future Predictions & Exposing the Truth About Australia’s Past"

Guest: Tony Abbott (Former Prime Minister of Australia)
Host: Dave Rubin
Date: October 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dave Rubin sits down with former Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott to dive deep into the future of Western civilization, the political and cultural currents shaping Australia, and the real history of the nation as addressed in Abbott’s new book. Their wide-ranging discussion covers U.S.-Australia relations, immigration policy, national identity, the challenges of political correctness, and the importance of historical perspective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Resilience of Western Civilization & the Danger of Self-Loathing

• Abbott opens the discussion by reflecting on Western societies' unique ability for self-criticism as a strength that’s risked mutating into self-loathing.
  • “I think that self critical capacity which has been so important to our survival and success up till now has to some extent mutated into a kind of self loathing. And this is very destructive...For nations, for cultures, for civilizations, as for individuals, almost nothing is worse than self loathing.”
    (Tony Abbott, 01:00 & 16:52)

2. The U.S.–Australia Alliance & Geopolitical Dynamics

• Rubin and Abbott discuss recent developments in the Australia–U.S. relationship, including the Aukus security pact and critical minerals deal.
  • Abbott emphasizes enduring ties based on shared interests, democratic values, and history.
  • He notes Australia’s consistent military support for the U.S.
  • “Of all the English speaking countries...we are linked by interests, by values, by history. I don’t believe we’re foreign countries to each other...The relationship is strong.”
    (Tony Abbott, 06:24)
  • Calls attention to the threat posed by China and the need for strong alliances: “Communist China is a more formidable competitor than the old Soviet Union ever was… we have to take the Beijing regime seriously when it says that it is determined to take Taiwan by force if necessary...”
    (Tony Abbott, 07:30)

3. Australia’s Political Culture & Recent Shifts

• They explore the analogy between Australia and the UK, both oscillating between center-right and center-left governments.
  • Abbott notes that strong conservative governance can moderate future left-leaning governments, while uninspiring right-leaning governments allow the left to push further:
    “It’s important for conservative governments to be strong because when you get a strong conservative government, the next center left labor government will be better than would otherwise be the case.”
    (Tony Abbott, 11:13)

4. National Identity, History, and Conflicted Narratives

• Rubin brings up Abbott’s new book, which tries to correct what Abbott sees as a growing sense of national malaise and shame about Australia’s past.
  • Abbott draws parallels to how America obsesses over slavery, Britain over empire, and Australia over indigenous dispossession.
  • He urges for a balanced view:
    • “The story of Aboriginal Australia was not just one of conflict with the settlers, it was also one of cooperation...We should judge our forebears not by modern stereotypes, but by the best standards of their day, not our day.”
      (Tony Abbott, 12:54)
  • On Western guilt: “Faith in institutions as well as religious faith… has declined… Self-critical capacity has mutated into a kind of self loathing… almost nothing is worse than self loathing.”
    (Tony Abbott, 16:52)

5. Immigration, Integration, and Multiculturalism

• The challenges and philosophy around immigration are discussed, with Abbott stating that while illegal immigration was tackled by his government, legal migration remains high, often subcontracted to education providers and businesses.

  • On national character:

    • “The three pillars upon which modern Australia rests: an Aboriginal heritage, a British foundation and an immigrant character. We are a fundamentally Anglo Celtic culture...with a profoundly Judeo Christian ethos.”
      (Tony Abbott, 22:02)

  • On policy and workfare:

    • Abbott defends the “Work for the Dole” program as both economically and morally important: “The something for nothing mindset is very, very corrosive and it breeds, I think, a destructive sense of entitlement. The world does not owe us a living.”
      (Tony Abbott, 28:18)

  • He warns against excessive multiculturalism, preferring integration over separatism:

    • “I think that 99.9% of migrants, even now, want to be as Australian as they can be, as quickly as they can be...But given governmental funding for ethnic activist organizations that have a vested interest in trying to perpetuate difference, there has been this rise of separatism.”
      (Tony Abbott, 29:51)

6. Ceremony, Values, and National Holidays

• Abbott laments moves away from having citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day, stressing the need for civic unity and pride.
  • “Some green left councils… have opted out of citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day because they don’t see Australia Day as the point when the modern world came wonderfully into an ancient land. They see it...as a day of embarrassment, even shame.”
    (Tony Abbott, 32:14)

7. History in Context: The Myall Creek Massacre Trial

• Abbott shares the historical example of the Myall Creek massacre and subsequent trial of stockmen for the murder of Aboriginal people, highlighting instances of justice and moral response even in 19th-century Australia.
  • “The jury did convict, and seven white men were hanged for the murder of black men back in 1838. Now ask yourself, did that happen in the United States at that time?...For all our errors, British justice did sometimes prevail.”
    (Tony Abbott, 34:03)

8. Australian Geography, Ethos, and Tourism

• Discussion turns lighter as Rubin seeks local advice for first-time visitors.

  • Abbott paints a vivid picture of Sydney:

    • “...Combine Yellowstone with LA and New York, the water of New York, the beaches of LA, with the beauty of Yellowstone, then you’ve got something like Sydney.”
      (Tony Abbott, 40:19)

  • On the Great Barrier Reef:

    • “Don’t believe the climate alarmists. The Barrier Reef waxes and wanes. In fact, the area of coral cover is at an all time record or certainly at its greatest since statistics were kept.”
      (Tony Abbott, 41:11)

  • Best places to surf: Manly Beach, especially North Stain, for an accepting community.

  • How to eat Vegemite: On toast, “a little bit of butter and then a bit of vegemite.”
    (Tony Abbott, 43:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Almost nothing is worse than self loathing.”
  (Tony Abbott, 01:00 & 16:52)
• “Of all the English speaking countries...we are linked by interests, by values, by history.”
  (Tony Abbott, 06:24)
• “If you want to destroy a country, it's much better to destroy the self belief of its citizens than it is to destroy its physical infrastructure.”
  (Tony Abbott, 19:34)
• “The three pillars upon which modern Australia rests: an Aboriginal heritage, a British foundation and an immigrant character.”
  (Tony Abbott, 22:02)
• “The story [Aboriginal Australians] was not just one of conflict… it was also one of cooperation and partnership.”
  (Tony Abbott, 12:54 & 34:03)
• “Don’t believe the climate alarmists. The Barrier Reef waxes and wanes.”
  (Tony Abbott, 41:11)
• On Vegemite: “I’m probably going to get expelled from the country, but I’m not a huge fan of veggie.”
  (Tony Abbott, 43:48)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction of major theme—Western self-criticism and self-loathing: 01:00
• Kickoff of main interview—U.S.–Australia relationship: 02:19–09:53
• Abbott discusses his new book and national historical narratives: 12:31–16:52
• Role of Cultural Marxism and decline of faith: 16:52–19:34
• Immigration, “Work for the Dole,” and multiculturalism: 22:02–32:08
• Australian history—Myall Creek Massacre: 34:03
• Australian geography, tourism tips, and the Great Barrier Reef: 40:19–41:50
• Vegemite debate: 43:42–end

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Closing Notes

This episode delivers a rich, opinionated, and reflective take on what makes Australia tick—its history, people, challenges, and future outlook—through the lens of a veteran statesman. Listeners come away with a nuanced understanding of the strengths and tensions at play not just in Australia, but across the wider Western world. Abbott’s perspective on national pride, immigration, and history is both assertive and candid, offering much food for thought for audiences interested in geopolitics, culture, and identity.

Transcript

[Jeff Bridges]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[Zoe]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me.

[Tony Abbott]

So Dana.

[Zoe]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Tony Abbott]

Nice.

[Zoe]

Je free.

[Tony Abbott]

You heard them.

[Jeff Bridges]

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[Tony Abbott]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for lunch?

[Zoe]

Dude, my work here is done.

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[Tony Abbott]

To be very confident in the long term survival and success of Western civilization because I thought that our civilization, unlike almost all of its predecessors and current competitors had a capacity to learn and adapt from others. I think that self critical capacity which has been so important to our survival and success up till now has to some extent mutated into a kind of self loathing. And this is very destructive. It's very destructive. Yes. Look at yourself in the mirror and say this can be better and that can be better. But don't look at yourself in the mirror and despise what you see. For nations, for cultures, for civilizations, as for individuals, almost nothing is worth is worse than self loathing.

[Dave Rubin]

All right, former prime minister Tony Abbott. Nice to see you and thank you for being gracious and allowing us to enjoy this beautiful view from your office. It's good to see you again Dave.

[Tony Abbott]

Welcome to Australia. Thanks for having me on the program. And yes, Sydney is an incandescently beautiful city so it's good to have you.

[Dave Rubin]

It's incandescently beautiful and the people seem to be happening and the people seem to be happy and it's buzzing. I mean it's really.

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Is it always like this out there or is this just.

[Dave Rubin]

Everyone keeps telling us how great the weather is, which it absolutely is right now, but it's just. There's a, there's a feeling out there.

[Tony Abbott]

Right now, Look, I think Sydney is a very vibrant place. It's always been a vibrant place. And the vibrancy of this city seems to survive economic ups and downs. It seems to survive good governments and bad governments. I just think that there is something about the Sydney environment that tends. It tends to bring out the enthusiasm in people.

[Dave Rubin]

Is it just this? I mean, is it the water, is it the landscape? Is it just the natural beauty that no matter what's happening politically, things are kind of going to be okay here?

[Tony Abbott]

I think that's right. Australians have been an upbeat people, Sydneysiders in particular. And it's very hard to feel down in the dumps on a good day in Sydney. And even on a day which is grey and cool, particularly from this vantage point up here, there's always something happening. It's a spectacular city, whether the view is radiant as in today, or full of mist and cloud.

[Dave Rubin]

So there's many things I want to discuss with you, including your new book which just came out last week. And the COVID is absolutely beautiful. And it's interesting because when we sat down in Hungary about four or five months ago, I think the first question I asked you was what do people not know about Australia that they should know? And this is a full history of Australia, so there'll be plenty to talk about on that. But at the moment, your current Prime Minister has just left the White House. He's obviously in the Labour Party on the left. What do you make of him? What do you make of the meeting? Did something have to happen that maybe didn't happen? Did anything happen that you didn't expect to happen? Et cetera, et cetera?

[Tony Abbott]

Look, as an Australian patriot, I want every Prime Minister to succeed, including the Prime Ministers who I would not have voted for. Anthony Albanese is from the other side of politics. I think that the government is making some mistakes, but nevertheless, I do think it's been a very successful White House meeting. From the reports it seems that Aukus the deal to give Australia nuclear powered submarines, initially Virginia class and ultimately the next generation of British nuclear submarines, that deal seems to have been confirmed. It seems that there is an agreement between Australia and the United States for rare earths and critical minerals. And that's a good thing. And obviously there was a degree of bonhomie between our national leader and your national leader. And given the potential for argument over things like Palestine, over things like climate, over perhaps China, that's very encouraging. So all credit to Anthony Albanese for navigating the at times perilous Passage through the White House. And all credit to President Trump for seemingly being his best self in this meeting.

[Dave Rubin]

Yeah, there were one or two little moments of poking a member of the cabinet and that sort of thing, but it seemed like it went pretty well. What do you make of the overall nature, not just of the current administrations, but the overall nature of the relationship between America and Australia? I said to you before, it's like Australia.

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[Dave Rubin]

Nobody, you say Australia to somebody, nobody thinks. They think Crocodile Dundee. I mean, it's as cliche as that in some sense. What do you make of the overall nature of the relationship over the years?

[Tony Abbott]

Look, I think of all the English speaking countries as family, Britain, the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the five eyes partners. We are linked by interests, by values, by history. I think that's very strong. I don't ever want it to change as far as I'm concerned. Although the United States and Australia are juridically independent and separate nations, I don't believe we're foreign countries to each other. Perhaps a bit exotic in some respects, but certainly not foreign or strange in important ways. So it's a good relationship? Yes, it waxes and wanes a little, but it's essentially a very strong relationship. I guess the big questions are how much support will Australia continue to give the United States in its various international undertakings?

[Dave Rubin]

Yeah, well, it seems like the minerals deal will go a long way with that, right?

[Tony Abbott]

It's certainly going to help. I like to remind American audiences that American soldiers went into action in the Great War for the first time under Australian Command on 4 July 1918 at the Battle of Le Hamel. John Monash, the famous Australian commander, was in overall charge on that day. Australia has been with the United States in every single one of its subsequent conflicts, including Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. And I think it's important that the English speaking countries stand shoulder to shoulder. I think it's important that the great democracies form a very strong partnership because this is a perilous world, more perilous now than at any time since the late 1930s. I think we have a tendency to be complacent about the dangers facing us. I think that Communist China is a more formidable competitor than the old Soviet Union ever was. And while President Trump is currently playing down the prospects of serious tension over Taiwan, I think we have to take the Beijing regime seriously when it says that it is determined to take Taiwan by force if necessary, and the sooner the better.

[Dave Rubin]

So do you think the minerals deal kind of pulls you guys back into our orbit in a sense as it pertains to China.

[Tony Abbott]

Well, we've always been very much in the American orbit. The Anzus treaty was signed back in 1951. The Aukus arrangements were entered into in 2021. The Aukus arrangements really reinforce the earlier Anzus arrangements. And not only that, the Aukus arrangements bring Britain back into this part of the world as I significant strategic presence. So look, the relationship is strong. I want it to be as strong as it possibly can be given all of the ties of history, of values, of interests, particularly at this time.

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[Dave Rubin]

So I want to talk a bit about the history of the country and sort of culturally, and then I want to get a couple tourism hints from you at the end. But what should Americans know about your political system? My sense is you guys basically are a centrist country that occasionally just goes one way or occasionally just goes the other. Never too far. Is that a fair assessment?

[Tony Abbott]

I think that probably the polity that we most resemble is the United Kingdom. So if you think of Australia as being Britain, only a federal Britain, you'll have a reasonable grasp of our political system. Like Britain, we oscillate between governments of the center right and of the center left. Just recently, as in Britain, we had a relatively long serving and disappointing government of the center right, which I led into Office back in 2013, followed by a government of the centre Left, which is probably more green left than usual right. And one of the points that I like to make to my fellow countrymen is it's important for conservative governments to be strong because when you get a strong conservative government, the next center left labor government will be better than would otherwise be the case. And if you've got a disappointing conservative government, well, that if you like, gives the left license to be even more left, which I think is normally bad.

[Dave Rubin]

Yeah.

[Tony Abbott]

Undesirable.

[Dave Rubin]

So I want to read. So I was glancing through the book before you stepped in. I thought it was interesting, the first line of the author's note you wrote, this is the book that should have never been needed. That's quite a sentence to write to start a book. And then, and then you explain a bit about obviously why you wrote it and really about the confused history that has entered the ethos here.

[Tony Abbott]

Yeah, Dave, this is true of Australia. It's true of the main Anglosphere countries, for countries which have mostly been brimfull of self confidence and brim full of national pride. I think generally speaking, obviously there are some individual instances that are exceptions to this. But I think generally speaking, there's been a lack of national pride, a lack of national self confidence recently and a great deal of angsting about particular historical episodes. I think if you look at contemporary America, Donald Trump is obviously an exception to this. But I think contemporary America, much of it at any event, obsesses over slavery. Contemporary Britain obsesses over the Empire. Contemporary Australia obsesses over indigenous dispossession. Now, obviously, slavery was a dreadful blot on the United States history. Abraham Lincoln magnificently responded to that challenge. And I don't think America should be damned simply because of that part of its past. Likewise, the British Empire was far from perfect. But on balance, the British Empire was actually a wonderful benefit to the wider world. All of the countries that have a British heritage in some way are the better for that. And it was in fact the Royal Navy, which more than any other entity, stamped out the transatlantic Atlantic slave trade. And it was British colonists and missionaries in Africa and the Middle east who did everything they could to stamp out local slavery as well. And yes, while there is no doubt that the Aboriginal people of Australia suffered considerably, particularly in the early years of settlement and the periods of pastoral expansion, at all times official Australia said that Aboriginal people had all the rights of British subjects and had to be treated fairly. Now, we all know that it's one thing to say something at head Office, it's another thing to make sure that out there on the frontiers of settlement, things are going well. But the story of Aboriginal Australia was not just one of conflict with the settlers, it was also one of cooperation with the settlers. For instance, almost none of our early explorers would have been able to make progress through a harsh landscape. But for the Aboriginal guides, who were very familiar with the landscape, that was new to British Australian eyes, almost none of our pastoralists would have been able to succeed without the help of indigenous stockmen and so on. So it's been a story of partnership and cooperation as well as a story of dispossession and occasional serious conflict. And I think it's important that we look at our history in the whole. And I think it's important that we judge our forebears not by modern stereotypes, but by the best standards of their day, not our day. And I certainly think that for all the exceptions, generally speaking, both Australia and Britain and also the United States have got far more to be proud of in their past than to be ashamed of.

[Dave Rubin]

So why do you think that our countries and most of the Western world seems to be going through this internal strife about its history? Is this all connected to sort of leftist politics and guilt over the past or is there something else going on?

[Tony Abbott]

I think a lot of it has to do with cultural Marxism. A lot of it has to do with perhaps the decline of faith generally. Faith in institutions as well as religious faith. I used to be very confident in the long term survival and success of Western civilization because I thought that our civilization, unlike almost all of its predecessors and current competitors, had a capacity to learn and adapt from others. I think that self critical capacity which has been so important to our survival and success up till now, has to some extent mutated into a kind of self loathing. And this is very destructive. It's very destructive. Yes. Look at yourself in the mirror and say this can be better and that can be better. But don't look at yourself in the mirror and despise what you see. For nations, for cultures, for civilizations, as for individuals, almost nothing is worth as is worse than self loathing.

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[Dave Rubin]

I mean this navel gazing seems to be happening across the West. So when you were prime minister, which wasn't that long ago, only about a decade ago, I mean, do you think there's anything that you could have done that would have addressed some of the issues, perhaps with the aboriginals or elsewhere, that might have stemmed the tide of this, or this was just all of this upending? This was just going to happen either way.

[Tony Abbott]

Well, there's no doubt that the cultural Marxism, the long march of the left through the institutions, has been underway for quite a few decades now, at least since the 1960s. I think it's gotten much worse in recent times. The Black Lives Matter thing was a particularly, I think, toxic manifestation of it. I think that the current outbreaks of antisemitism or Jew hatred are another very toxic manifestation of this. And if you want to destroy a country, it's much better to destroy the self belief of its citizens than it is to destroy its physical infrastructure. Because in the end the physical infrastructure is yours. If the defenders and the advocates have lost their self belief.

[Jeff Bridges]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[Zoe]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me.

[Tony Abbott]

So Dana.

[Zoe]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Zoe]

Nice Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Jeff Bridges]

T Mobile is the best place to.

[Tony Abbott]

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[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for lunch.

[Zoe]

Dude my work here is done.

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[Dave Rubin]

Would you define an Australian these days? We we were in Melbourne a few days ago and one of the things that my whole team was trying to figure out is what what does the city kind of feel like? And you couldn't really pin it. It didn't feel like it had a particular sense or it didn't feel particularly Australian to any of us. Now that's very different than here in Sydney, but broadly, if you were to say what is an Australian? I mean, what is that? And that's actually connected to all of this as it pertains to immigration and everything else.

[Tony Abbott]

Well, trying to define a nation and try to put a, if you like, a label on what defines a citizen of one country as opposed to another is pretty elusive. I say in the book again and again that the three pillars upon which modern Australia rests an Aboriginal heritage, a British foundation and an immigrant character. We are a fundamentally Anglo Celtic culture, regardless of the ethnicity of our citizens. I think we have a profoundly Judeo Christian ethos, again, regardless of the particular religion of our citizens. I do think that the left establishment is unhappy and at times subversive of both the Anglo Celtic core culture and the Judeo Christian core ethos of our country. And I think it's important that we maintain and reinforce both. But look, what's the Australian project? I mean, America used to talk about its manifest Destiny. I think Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom have all in a sense consciously and subconsciously pursued their own version of a manifest destiny in Australia. I think that what's animated almost all of us from the very beginning of modern Australia has been this idea that this is a country where everyone who is prepared to have a go is going to get a fair go in order to build a better life for his or her children. I think in the United States the manifest destiny was to tame a vast land and subsequently to, I suppose bae, beacon of hope and freedom to the rest of the world. The shining city on a hill, the phrase that Ronald Reagan liked to use. I Think Britain, they've had, if you like, a manifest destiny, a civilizing mission, if you like. I think it was McCawley who said of the British in India back in the early parts of the 19th century that our role in India is to enable, quote, the native people to walk alone in the paths of justice. So I think all three countries in their own way have had this sense of manifest destiny, but amongst wide swathes of the elites, if you like, there would be this scoffing at that kind of thing, this deep cynicism towards what I think are actually quite noble and uplifting ideals.

[Dave Rubin]

So speaking of those of noble and uplifting ideals, so outside of the Aboriginal piece which you've already addressed, what is something you would want people to know about Australia that they don't know? Maybe an Australian themselves or outsiders?

[Tony Abbott]

Well, I think this is a country that prides itself on being the land of the fair gow. And part of being a land of the fair go is that if you come to this country with curiosity and goodwill, you will have a very warm welcome. And if you are able to live in this country with goodwill and a determination to make a go of things, you will very quickly be an absolute first class Australian.

[Dave Rubin]

So is that part of the confusion maybe around some of the immigration stuff now that you guys don't have illegal immigration in that you have an unbelievable geography and you're an island and a huge landmass?

[Tony Abbott]

We did have a small boats problem, but my government fixed that.

[Dave Rubin]

Right. So is it basically since your government that there's pretty much been no illegal immigration, but there's constant discussions around legal.

[Tony Abbott]

Immigration and currently legal migration is at an all time record and it's effectively been subcontracted from government to educational providers and businesses. And a lot of educational providers are selling effectively an immigration outcome in the guise of education. And a lot of businesses, I think are bringing people in from overseas to do jobs that Australians are currently less enthusiastic to do. And I think what we really need to do is offer locals more training, offer locals higher pay, and perhaps some important changes to the welfare system so that it's never more advantageous to people to be on welfare as opposed to being in work, even entry level work. One of the things that I was responsible for as a minister in the days of the Howard government was something that went by the very blunt title work for the dole. And under the work for the dole program, you might call it workfare in the United States. Under that program, if you were under 50 and had been unemployed for six months on benefits, we would say, well, okay, you've had your time looking for work and it hasn't worked out. Now we are going to give you part time work for some community organization or for some good cause. And if you want to keep getting your government benefit, you've got to do two days work for this good cause. Now I actually thought that was a very important policy, not just from an economic perspective, but really from a moral perspective.

[Dave Rubin]

Yeah, I mean, it seems about as fair as you can get.

[Tony Abbott]

Exactly. Right. The something for for nothing mindset is very, very corrosive and it breeds, I think, a destructive sense of entitlement. I mean, in the end, the world does not owe us a living. If we are going to flourish, it will be because we've had a go. We've lifted ourselves up by our own efforts. And that's been, I think, well understood by every generation of Australian until quite recently.

[Dave Rubin]

Right, so is that program gone now?

[Tony Abbott]

Well, it offended the welfarist mindset which tends to prevail on the green left of politics. So the Howard government made a big thing of work for the dole. My government likewise made a big thing of it, but the intervening labor government abolished it. And certainly after I left office it kind of faded away. And it certainly does need to be reinvigorated now.

[Dave Rubin]

So how complex is between dealing with some of the historical issues that people seem to be obsessed with, even if largely they shouldn't be obsessed with them, and then dealing with integration now with some of these people that have come that don't seem to be sharing in that and don't seem to want the warmth that you just described from the native Australians. How much tension is there around that?

[Tony Abbott]

Well, there's a bit, as you can imagine. I mean, America in its glory days was very much regarded as the melting pot. E pluribus unum, one of your national mottos, as it were. We had the same sort of approach. For instance, the great period of post war migration, which was the first time large numbers of non British migrants were encouraged to come to Australia. In those days, the official attitude was, well, integrate from day one and assimilate as quickly as you can. And there was an expectation and reality that at least your kids would be entirely assimilated into the Australian way of life. Over the last few decades we've adopted this concept from Canada originally of multiculturalism, the sort of the fruit salad as opposed to the melting bowl where the different ingredients are expected to retain their identity. I think that 99.9% of migrants, even now, who come to this country, they want to be as Australian as they can be, as quickly as they can be, because, let's face it, they chose to come here. And they chose to come here because of Australia as it is, not because of Australia that it might become. They came here, I like to think and believe to join us, not to change us, but given governmental funding for ethnic activist organizations that have a vested interest in trying to perpetuate difference. I think there has been this rise of separatism, if you like, at this point in time. I think it's more than manageable and more than reversible, but you don't want to go too far down this path because the further down this path you go, the more difficult it gets, I think.

[Dave Rubin]

How much of it's in the government now, like policies that are currently applied by the government?

[Tony Abbott]

Well, one of the things that the current government did on coming into office was abolish a requirement that the previous government had put in place that local councils have citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day. Having a citizenship ceremony on Australia Day has always been thought of as a wonderful way to combine your entry into the wider family of Australia with this great celebration of the country itself. Some green left councils, quite a lot of green left councils, now that they have the latitude from the government to kind of disown Australia Day, have opted out of citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day because they don't see Australia Day as the point when the modern world came wonderfully into an ancient land. They see Australia Day as if you like a day of embarrassment, even shame, when the British invaded what up till then was a series of sovereign first nations. Now I think that we got plenty.

[Dave Rubin]

Of these guys too.

[Tony Abbott]

I think that fundamentally misconceives what happened. But nevertheless, that's the difficulty. So that kind of quiet pride in country, which I think every Australian is entitled to feel, does get a lot of official buffeting these days. Yeah, and you gotta.

[Dave Rubin]

You gotta really work to push that back because as we talked about, it's. It's sort of everywhere. So give me some piece of history or a story that just. We wouldn't know from an American perspective.

[Tony Abbott]

Okay, Well, I don't want to try to remind Americans of their history, which their. We could probably use a little of it more familiar with. But. But back in the middle of 1838, there was a dreadful massacre of Aboriginal people by a group of stockmen. About a dozen stockmen surprised Aboriginal encampment and up to 30 men, women and children were absolutely brutally butchered. Word of this filtered down to Sydney and the then Attorney General of New South Wales, an Irish Catholic who was made Attorney General here at a time when Catholics were still under legal disabilities in Britain, who was a very deeply humane man, very conscious of the rights and dignity of every human being, regardless of race or religion. He insisted, with the full support and encouragement of the then governor, he insisted on launching an investigation. The perpetrators were put on trial here in Sydney. The original jury refused to convict. That could have been the end of the matter. But the Attorney General, John Plunkett, then brought fresh charges against a slightly reduced number of perpetrators, persuaded a couple of the perpetrators to turn Queen's evidence. The judge at the second trial said that this is an abomination, an atrocity that cries out to heaven for justice. The jury did convict, and seven white men were hanged for the murder of black men back in 1838. Now ask yourself, did that happen in the United States at that time? I suspect the answer is no, it didn't. So for all our errors, for all the prejudices of those days, for all the failures to accord the native people of Australia the rights they should have had, British justice did sometimes prevail. And there are many stories, some of them in this book, some of them in other, more specific histories, of the wonderful warmth between settler families and indigenous families. Because the story was by no means one of relentless conflict, it was also one of cooperation and partnership.

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[Dave Rubin]

How does the geography of your country play into the national ethos and the culture and the international relations and all those things. In that you're the size of the United States, but you have, I think it's like the 15th of the people, 350 to about 25 or something.

[Tony Abbott]

28 million. Yeah. Well, the United States is a country of deep soils and vast river systems, high mountains. We're not like that. Other than in some of our river valleys, the soils tend to be poor and thin. We don't have high mountains. Much of the country is semi arid, even desert now. With modern fertilizers, with irrigation, we are a breadbasket to much of the wider world. But the carrying capacity, if you like, of Australia is not as great. And the natural carrying capacity, if you like, of Australia is not as great as that of the United States. That said, if you go back to the Federation era, the 1890s, when we had a population at the time of Pabst 3 to 4 million, which was about the same as the population in 1776 of the United States.

[Dave Rubin]

That's interesting.

[Tony Abbott]

Our Federation fathers, most notably Sir Henry Parkes, said, look, our aim and objective is to create on this continent a country with all the potential and all the future prospects and flourishing of the United States. Now, we don't have a population of 350 million, and we never will, but.

[Dave Rubin]

You could fit it.

[Tony Abbott]

But I like to think that in our own way, we have created a society which is every bit as good, in some ways better than the society of the United States.

[Dave Rubin]

Yeah, well, it feels like the United States here, and I mean that in the best, best sense of that. I love. I love my country. In the remaining time, can you just tell me a few things? I've got all my crew here that have never been to Australia. I've only been here once. What should we be doing? What else should we know? Where should we be going? You're a bit of a surfer yourself. Done some interesting things.

[Tony Abbott]

Well, Dave, look, the great thing about Sydney, as you can tell just from looking out this window, we've got the bush, we've got the water, the harbour, we've got the ocean. In some respects, Sydney is a city in the midst of a national park. If you try to combine Yellowstone with LA and New York, the water of New York, the beaches of la, with the beauty of Yellowstone, then you've got something like Sydney.

[Dave Rubin]

But it's way cleaner than la, I'll.

[Tony Abbott]

Tell you that much liquid has a lot of the urban blight which many of the West's great cities are currently subject to. I mean, this Terrible problem of drug addiction, of homelessness.

[Dave Rubin]

I haven't seen any of that here. I don't know if it's maybe just not in the area that we've been.

[Tony Abbott]

Wandering or what, but it exists. But it's not nearly as bad as in Washington, in London. Again, maybe it's a function of the weather. Maybe it's a function of the have a go mindset that an immigrant people tend to have. Maybe, but our mood is better. Our mood is better. And long may that be the case. But. So I think that soak the place up, walk the city, admire the opera house, admire the Harbour Bridge, get to the beach if you can, get up to the Barrier Reef because don't believe the climate alarmists. The Barrier Reef is not being destroyed by climate change. The Barrier Reef waxes and wanes. Sometimes it's doing better than at other times. But in terms of mankind's impact on the reef, it's less now than it has been for 100 years because we've cleaned up the rivers that flow into the waters of the reef. Agricultural runoff is not nearly what it was. In fact, the most recent statistics that came out just in the last few months suggest that the area of coral cover is at an all time record or certainly at its greatest since statistics were kept. So get up to the reef, get off to the center, have a look at Ayers Rock or Uluru as we. Uluru as we now call it, because it is a magnificent country.

[Dave Rubin]

And where's the best place to surf?

[Tony Abbott]

Well, I surf on Manly beach normally about halfway between South Stain and Queenscliff. The great thing about North Stain is that it's a pretty forgiving crowd. It tends to be older servers on longboards. I'll be okay with that.

[Dave Rubin]

I'm not sure about these guys and.

[Tony Abbott]

I've got to say that they've always been very easy going when I drop in on my constituents.

[Dave Rubin]

Wait, I have to ask you one last thing then, which is tell me. I googled it already, so I know what the answer is. But tell me the best way to eat Vegemite because I think my team has done it wrong here and there's some confusion.

[Tony Abbott]

Put it on your toast. That's the best way.

[Dave Rubin]

And a lot of butter. How much butter or just straight up?

[Tony Abbott]

I'm probably going to get expelled from. From the country. But I'm not a huge fan of veggie. But most people in my family put on a little bit of butter and then a bit of vegemite. Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister. Good on you, Dave.