A (2:09)

It seems to be. I, I, it's, it's a weird thing. The, the British Broadcasting Corporation. I mean, I didn't actually work though. I just call myself sort of a fallen BBC journalist. I sold the documentary to them and then.

B (2:22)

Okay, well, worked in conjunction with them at the conjunction.

A (2:26)

It's my fault because I sort of. I have that label as like fallen BBC journalist because otherwise it would be guy who sold documentary to them. Docum did really well and then I got put through this kind of weird re education camp where I was told I shouldn't be white anymore. And it was just a whole horrible.

B (2:40)

I do want to. Yeah, well, tell us that story too. I mean, let's. Why don't we start with some of that stuff and then we'll, we'll get to the issues of the day.

A (2:47)

Yeah, that was kind of my red pill moment, I suppose. I was about 27 or something, I'm not sure. So I guess we're talking about eight years ago, I don't know. And it was peak kind of that new woke era of dei. It was all being introduced. Everybody was very excited about it. And I was making documentaries as a presenter or host, so kind of like Michael Moore, but not really political. I was on screen and I would go and interview like an exorcist or if there, maybe even vice media stuff. But again not political, but you know. And I sold a documentary to the BBC. I'd sold some to American channels as well that went out on hbo. But this BBC one did particularly well. It won festival awards beforehand and then with the BBC was placed in their best of list. So everybody was really happy with how well it had done about this abusive exorcist in Argentina. And in that time I'd also learned to speak five languages because I thought I need to be the best journalist they have. I've got to be the best. So I did all of this stuff because I, I wanted to be the next kind of big thing there. And after that I had some meetings with the BBC who looked a bit not very impressed by me. And then they said, look, if you want to, you know, you've got to go through our production company. So I was put in touch with production companies. I was put in touch with about 50 or so over about five years. And every single one of them that I went in with a bunch of ideas. I had this mad stuff. It was like gay conversion in Ecuad, people who make their adulterers stand in ant hills in Bolivia, like crazy stuff around the world, pedophiles in Germany. And they were so excited. Every production company was like, oh my God, how Did you get this access? Cause I've been living around the world and doing all this stuff and every single one, at one point, I'm talking About every, not 99%, 100% of them said, look, if we put this forward, by the way, there's absolutely no way you can be on screen. We cannot, we cannot show. And I said, but I've got the access to these people. I speak their languages, I literally, literally their languages. And they said, there's absolutely no way. We can't even go to them with that. So I was treated pretty terribly, I think. And the worst part about that was that nobody believed me when I said it. It's only years later that people have said, oh, of course that was happening. Nobody wanted to admit it was happening. And it's a strange thing when it, when it's something we're so proud of, dei, that they have to deny it so much. It's this strange paradox there. So that's how I got started. Go.

B (5:01)

So you were a filmmaker, basically. Your politics, I think are at least now very similar to mine. But I describe you as kind of like an old school sane liberal. You get red pilled because they pretty much were like, well, we don't want a white guy hosting these, you know, far out there documentaries. And then, and then, okay, well, you realize, all right, I can't be part of this system because you can't magically change your skin color. So then what do you do?

A (5:25)

I, yeah, I still, There are tanning.

B (5:28)

Lotions, there are things you can do, peptides and things.

A (5:30)

Now, you know, it's funny you say that because look, not every single person in all of these production companies was necessarily on board with it. They just knew that this is the system, this is how it works, right? How much you can do about it. So they would often joke with me. They said, hey, we can break your legs if you want, you know, because that, then you're a minority. You know, Some guys would say, are you sure you're not gay? Right?

B (5:47)

I was gonna say, you can sleep with a dude, that'll get you the gig, you know.

A (5:50)

Although, although, as you probably know, nowadays being gay is Jewish.

B (5:54)

You know, it's, yeah, it doesn't work.

A (5:56)

It counts against you. So. And I did, I remember one particular meeting when I, I hated myself for this. But it was about three or four years into this. I was on minimum wage. I, I, all my friends were finding ways to work and do really well. And I was just stuck at this point and it was depressing and I thought, okay, I'm. I hate myself for this, but I'm going to do it. And halfway through this meeting, I said, you know, I am Jewish, right? And. And in the UK, that's like 0.1% of the 0.5% of population is tiny. It's 200,000 people here. That's a minority, surely, this guy. And I don't even remember who it was, but I remember he just laughed and he said, well, if I. I really think about that, then, well, I can't say that, basically. So, yeah, at that point I was angry and I just thought, screw this, I'm just going to do it myself. I had. I had a list of hundreds of people I wanted to interview just interesting people around the world. And Covid hit. I was living in Berlin at the time, and I just thought. I thought, okay, I'm at home. I've got a laptop and I got a, you know, a lamp next to me and all of that. It looked terrible. Sellotape to sort of put things on top of a shoebox, that kind of stuff. And I interviewed people like, you know, somebody who left the Westboro Baptist Church. Just extreme people, interesting people, and. And whatever. I did that for like two or three years. The channel grew huge, got to 300,000 subscribers after a couple of years. And then October 7th happened. So I said, well, okay, we talk a lot on this channel about cults. We did a lot on Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hasidic Jews. There's an issue with Islam as well. And my own fans or viewers or subscribers went bananas, went absolutely angry at me, did really badly, the videos. I lost loads of subscribers. And I went, right, okay, this is supposed to be a channel about cult think and group think. And I said one thing you guys don't like, and everyone's gone. I'm out of here. So I thought, this is not fun anymore. So I immediately abandoned that channel, started a new channel called Heretics from Scratch. And it's. Yeah, it's been like a year and a half. You came on it and it's up to about 600,000 subscribers in a year and a half. So it's just like it's doing well. And it's because it's speaking to a British public who, even more than American people, are not seeing that side of things. They're only being fed as we, you know, to go back to the beginning, the BBC line on things. So that's my sort of.

B (8:09)

Right. So it's really fascinating because, in essence, you were sort of canceled or like half pre canceled by the mainstream because you didn't fit the intersectional calculator. Then you talk about their holy Grail as an independent person. Then you have to abandon your own project. Now you start heretics. And when I saw you in London, I think we went there from Heathrow. We went right to you. You're a fine interviewer. So you are across the pond right now. I talk about your country a lot. It seems to me you guys are in, like, a seriously dire situation. So before we even dive into that, how comfortably, how comfortable are you as an interviewer and in this case, as an interviewee, saying whatever you want to say right now? Because we know about all of the laws around free speech and people being, you know, arrested literally for tweets and that stuff. So let's. Let's start with that, and then we can dive into the specific issues. Do you feel the need to censor yourself in any way throughout this conversation?

A (9:11)

I probably do. Not necessarily because of the authorities, but that could happen. I feel I have to sense myself, partly because I might get killed by people who live around here. So that's a part of it, and partly because you have to. You can't just be, I guess, extreme in some respects because you won't be able to bring people with you. I think the thing with the authorities.

B (9:39)

Sure, but you're not extreme. I mean, I know you well enough to know you're not extreme. That's the point.

A (9:44)

But I get angry, and I feel like I was angry after the synagogue attack a couple of days ago. At the time of recording, I was very angry. I have had interviewees afterwards, when we've been editing their stuff in the uk, say to me, hey, can you just cut this bit? And that bit, because new things have happened whereby police have turned up at people's doors and things like that. Generally what tends to happen is that they spend the day in a cell or something and then they leave. And it's a whole big thing. It's a big story. If that happened to me, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. So. So we're not yet at that point where I'm that scared about what I say. The person who got arrested for 31 months, that was Lucy Connolly, and she's among many. One of the problems was that they were advised by lawyers to plead guilty, that they would. That they would be fine. And then suddenly she got two and a half years in prison. Now we have child molesters who don't see inside A cell for one day. She got 31 months. So the idea that that wasn't political is absurd. The pushback on that has been huge, though, and hopefully, you know, we're getting somewhere with that. But you're right to point that out. It is really scary. And I think we are in Britain, a litmus test for you guys. Like, this is where you guys could end up. So you've got to watch what happens here because we are going to a very scary place. Right.

B (11:02)

Well, when I saw you back in February of this year, it was for Jordan Peterson's art conference. That's why I was in London. And then a few days after I saw you, I was at a dinner with about 20 people from the conference. Many, many of our friends. And I don't need to name drop, but people who've been on my show.

A (11:18)

I think I was.

B (11:18)

We were. There were a couple. Maybe you were at this. Maybe you were at this once. Oh, I think you were at this dinner. But one of the things that we were discussing was how all of us sort of felt we should not tweet exactly what we thought, because I had plenty of thoughts as I was walking down the streets of London, not feeling safe and blah, blah, blah. And it was the first time in my life, particularly as an American, that I was ever like, boy, maybe I just won't say what I think. I don't need to be. Not that I was gonna be arrested as an American, but I didn't wanna be held up at the airport or whatever else might happen. And then, of course, several of the people there were British citizens.

A (11:53)

Yeah, yeah. Well, we. You. And I think you joked about that as well and said, can you release it once I'm back in the States?

B (11:58)

Oh, right.

A (11:59)

Yeah. But the fact that we're even at that point where that's semi serious, it's like, you know, that's. It is scary. People have. People have failed to. They've lost their understanding of. Of the difference between, you know, stopping violent crimes and. And just, you know, having to put up with people saying things they don't like. And unfortunately, you know, I'm happy to do that. I'm happy to. If I had a restaurant and the guys who are the most fervent lefty lunatics, who I think are just insane, they came into my restaurant, I would serve them food, I'd hope they have a good time, I would speak to them politely, and we'd probably have a good conversation. That, unfortunately, has been lost on the left across the world right now. So it's scary.

B (12:39)

Okay. So putting a pin in the free speech portion of it, although I suspect it'll kind of frame everything we're doing here broadly, and then we can connect this to the Manchester thing. You know, I try to be careful when I talk about your country, because I do. I really do think things are dire. And when I go back each year, for the last couple years now, I've sensed that it's gotten worse each time. We see the videos about free speech, we see the Hamas rallies, the. All of the stuff. What level of alarm do you think we are at right now?

A (13:10)

Maybe 10 out of 10. Maybe 10 out of 10.

B (13:13)

Oh, wow.

A (13:14)

Yeah. It's so much worse than anybody is willing to admit. And the. The issue, I mean, I know I. I guess I was a little bit, you know, I didn't push that hard. When you asked about. It was concern about free speech. Right. That. That is a concern. It's. It's a 6 out of 10, a 7 out of 10, maybe an 8 out of 10. The concern here for me is multiculturalism and what it's done to this country. And I think it's almost impossible for Americans to understand this without coming here. You did come here. But even, like, you know, I interviewed Ann Coulter recently, and she tried to say to me with a straight face that it was just as bad having Mexican immigration as what we're getting from Islamic countries now. I totally respect her point. Like, I, you know, and I get it, because I've been to the States and everything's in Spanish now. I speak Spanish, so I'm fine with that. But then the beheadings and the Mafia and all of that stuff, I get it. I get it. This is something that, that. This is prehist. This is. Sorry, this is medieval. What is happening to. These are medieval. And what is going on in America is a similar culture. So, you know, yeah, we have to take in a certain number of refugees, I suppose, but I don't know why they are not going to other countries with similar cultures. Well, I do know why. Because it's about colonization and power. And so it's got to a point where I think it's irreversible. That's why I say 10 out of 10. And everybody's sitting around going, oh, stop the boats. Now the boats is in reference. It's like your Trump wall, you know, don't let. People are coming over from France and they're saying that they, you know, and it's mad because as if France was at war, you Know, like, people had to. They had to leave France to get to England because they just prefer coming to England because they want to spread to England. So to stop the bus.

B (14:47)

Well, soon enough, soon enough there will be legit refugees coming out of France. I mean, some of them. Well, the Jews of France are leaving and they're all going Israel. I mean.

A (14:54)

Yeah, well, they wouldn't. Uk, you know, that's, you know, and where do you go? And I think about this all the time because Islam is spreading very fast throughout South America. It's spreading very fast through Africa. So if you want to go somewhere, I mean, I, I've said this before, Texas, Florida, these are the only people. Americans have a sense of nationalism that I think will do its best to.

B (15:15)

Stop this, you know, so you mentioned, okay, stop the boats. That, that seems to be like, it's like the easiest bumper sticker answer to all of this. As if, if you stop everything, all the future immigration, that. That will stop the problem. But your argument, which is obviously the same argument that I've been even making in the United States, is that there is now a problem on our shores. And do you see any. Like, you know, when they had the Tommy Robinson rally, sorry, the. Was it restorer. What was it called?

A (15:43)

Unite the kingdom.

B (15:43)

Unite the Kingdom. Sorry. You know, when you saw that, you saw millions of patriots, British patriots, out on the streets. I mean, does that give you any hope? Or do you just think that the numbers just don't work anymore and clearly your political establishment doesn't seem to want to do anything. I mean, Starmer. Starmer is worse. It just keeps getting worse.

A (15:58)

It seems the problem, I think, boils down to, if we look at the origins of this, and maybe if we look at it from an ideological aspect, is cousin marriage. So Britain banned cousin marriage or England or whatever it was back then in the 6th century. And it led to the great amazing societies and civilizations that we have today in the States and the UK because what it meant was that people stopped just doing things within their own clan or their family and looked to something wider and it created something that was the nation state. So we had some sense of pride and nationalism and those kinds of things. We started doing business with people outside of our own families because we weren't just marrying our own cousins. I imagine there was also a bit of an IQ lift when we stopped marrying our own cousins. British Pakistanis still marry their cousins in the United Kingdom at a rate of about 50 to 60%. It's unbelievable. But what that means is now that we are just a bunch of individuals, which I like a lot of individualism. I do like that. That's where a lot of liberty comes from. But if we don't also have something to rally around, which is a flag or the nation state or something, whatever Britain is, because at the moment, it's just an airport for people to do what they want here, then we are up against a culture that, as you say, is already embedded here. There's a lot of cousin marriage. There's a lot of silos now where people don't even speak English. They only speak with one another, and they don't integrate. And why would they integrate? Because we don't encourage them to because all we do is denigrate our own country. So, yes, there were people we don't know, Some say millions at the United Kingdom rally. Some say there were only 150,000. It's probably somewhere between the two. What they're able to do, I don't know. Until some of the mainstream celebrities in particular, start to change what they allow the rest of us to speak about.

B (17:39)

But what would it even be? Let's say you got the political leadership that you wanted and the culture shifted enough so that whether it was Nigel's party or whatever you think would have to be the incoming party comes in and enough people. I mean, what do you actually, like, Are you talking soldiers on the street have to kick these people out? Like, what actually has to be done?

A (18:00)

A lot of people think there will be civil war. And I just feel like, I don't know, it's too late. Because I wouldn't want to abandon liberal principles and start kicking people out just because they subscribe to a certain religion, especially when many of them are peaceful. What I won't say is that most are peaceful or that the large majority are peaceful because statistics don't bear that out. I grew up believing that it was 0.01%. That's what my family who are Jewish would tell me. Oh, don't worry about Islamism. It's like 0.1%. We know it's not. We know we have 40,000 jihadis on the terror watch list in the United Kingdom. United Kingdom has made it also. They also now count terrorists as people who believe that their culture is being replaced by people by immigrants. So now I'm a terrorist, basically. So that list is going to get a lot larger now. What would have to happen? I hate being so defeatist. I don't think anything can happen because farage can't come in and just start Deporting everybody. And even if he wanted to do that and be so illiberal as to deport just innocent, nice people, which I wouldn't want to see happen, he wouldn't be able to, because we have a deep state here. I discussed this with former Prime Minister Liz Truss when she came on Heretics. She was Prime Minister for about, you know, a few days. I mean, it was very short, literally. But she said, but there's nothing you can do because we have civil servants who are people who are not elected, who are just there. And these people, as we know, in any kind of bureaucratic department tend to be ideologues. So we would reach the point where we are all hanging from cranes and they would still be sitting there saying, oh, come on, guys, it's not everyone. So, yeah, I don't know what can happen.

B (19:38)

You've mentioned sort of the end of liberalism twice. I mean, do you think this is a flaw of liberalism? You know, I've discussed this with a couple guests. I'm a little conflicted about the answer to that. I mean, I personally. We played a clip of Douglas Murray earlier this week on my show saying that enough with, like, at the end, if liberalism is only designed to hang itself, then it is a flawed ideology.

A (20:00)

Yeah, yeah, I, I think it's, there's, there's a flaw in it. And unfortunately, look, it. Maybe it wouldn't have been flawed if we didn't have this issue with Islamism across the Middle East. And unfortunately, when you look back at it, it seems obvious, right? We were all liberals running around going, hey, you know, individualism, how wonderful, and all of these things. And everybody should be free to practice whatever they want and any religion they want and all of those things. None of us wanted to step up and say, well, hang on a minute, it might be a flaw in liberalism. Now, when I've interviewed Andrew Doyle, he's a very, very smart man and he's very well read. And so he's read all of the guys who wrote about liberalism and there are different strains of liberalism. So he will tell you, and he'd be able to tell you much better than me, he'll tell you the exact person, the philosopher, what they said, and he will say his idea of liberalism is not accepting illiberal ideas. The problem, I suppose, is who gets to decide what a liberal idea is. But I think you and I have a pretty good idea.

B (20:59)

Yeah, well, I think at the end, if you want to defend a liberal society, you might need some scary conservatives that are guarding the Door. I think that that's what you guys are up against right now, by the way. I think it's the exact same thing we're up against. We have much better defenses, not only legally because of our constitution related to free speech, but also we're a much more armed society. As you know, we were born in revolution. Like we have states rights. There's a lot of things that give us an advantage. I mean, I don't want to go that dark really. But like, so how do you wake up every day as, as a citizen and say I have a future here or I'm going to stay here or there's a way that this is going to work. I mean, you just gave me the 10 out of a 10 alarm.

A (21:39)

Yeah, well, you know. Do you know Peter Bogoshin?

B (21:42)

Of course, of course. He's a good friend, been on the show many times.

A (21:44)

He's. He messages like, like he's got this.

B (21:47)

Idea he got the high hell out of Portland, I'll tell you that. He lives in Hungary now.

A (21:50)

Yeah, he did. I think he's moved again. But he says that we need to surrender. So his idea. And you never know with Peter if he's being facetious. He's just trying to like, you know, he's like the British people, you've got to surrender. You've got to surrender. That's it. They'll let you live. And it's like, well they won't, they won't. That's the point. But I don't even know what that means. He's going to, I said, come on, at some point and we'll have this debate about whether we should surrender.

B (22:14)

All right, I'm going to text him about that right after he messages like.

A (22:18)

Once every week and he's like surrendered yet? So I don't know if he's just being a troll, but he's such a great mind though and he's brilliant on this and like you, he's been.

B (22:26)

Well, is his argument live as a dimmy? I mean, is that what his argument is like? Accept that you're never going to beat them. So live as a second class citizen, pay your tax, your jizya and live as a dhimmi.

A (22:36)

That seems to be, I don't want to paraphrase him and he might say, you know, I apologize to him for paraphrasing on another but you know, I'll.

B (22:41)

Have him on to follow him on.

A (22:43)

To speak about it.

B (22:43)

He'll love that.

A (22:44)

He'll love that. He's a lovely man and yeah, he says that. I said, look, that's not an option. I said to him, it's not, it's not because I think I'm more optimistic than you, Peter. It's because that is not an option. That, that's us dead. So it's the same result either way. So I don't know.

B (22:58)

You.

A (22:58)

Look, it depends. There isn't, as there is in the States, there's an elite class, a liberal elite class. I hate saying it because it sounds, you know how it sounds. Oh, the liberal elite. But there is that class. They do exist. I saw a popular football or soccer player called Gary Neville. He was just posting something on Twitter. He's been running around taking down British flags. This is a guy who represented England in World Cups and things taken down British flags because he said, you know what that means? Really? And it's like, well, what does it mean, Gary? So that is a huge problem right now. Now what they don't understand is they live in like barbed wire security complexes so far from any of this stuff. And people who have to live every day, I mean in America in the Fox News, I know they've talked about no go zones. I'm not sure they're exactly no go zones. You're not going to get killed if you go down there, I don't think. But they are areas that look nothing, nothing like what you imagine Britain to be. And they are places where there's. Yeah, just sort of, it looks like, I suppose modern day Pakistan or not even modern day people carrying.

B (23:59)

Well, there's places that it's obvious you're not welcome. That's what I would say. Having been there enough and drove, you know, having taken go through certain parts of London or the drive to Oxford or Cambridge or when I went to see you and there's just signs in Arabic everywhere and you see Palestinian flags and it's like they clearly don't want me there. I don't think they want you there.

A (24:17)

That's definitely true. And you know what's frustrating is there's two separate arguments because one is about multiculturalism and whether it can ever work and I don't think it can long term. But the one we're having really is about Islam because Hindus and Sikhs and Jews and Buddhists have been doing pretty damn well. And I don't want that to be taken. You know, there'll be some people who are against it and will say, well, hang on a minute, you know, and I respect those arguments as well. I'm not for multi. I'm against multiculturalism, really. But the issues come with Islam. And you see the difference because I walk my dog, I have a little tiny dachshund who's the cutest thing ever. Long haired, blonde thing. Like people melt around her. And I walk down in the town where I grew up, we walk around shopping centers and some, most people are brown now. They're just brown skinned. And some come over to me and they love the dog and they pick her up and they say sometimes with an accent, but sometimes they just sound English. And they say, oh, I just want, I'm gonna take her home. And we joke and we laugh and they are always Hindu, always. And some people run out the way because they're scared of the dog. They spit, they scowl, they look angry at me, they hate me because I have a little dog. Because in Islam that is haram, having a dog, especially if you have a black dog. I think the dog issue is one that maybe British people can get around more because we love our dogs so much, as do Americans. So yeah, that is what it's like. You wake up in a country that 20 years ago you could walk your dog and it wasn't an issue. And today it's a bit of an issue, tomorrow it's gonna be even more of an issue.

B (25:46)

So again, so I sort of know your answer, but so now there's this Manchester attack on the holiest day of the Jewish year. Then it literally moments after riots start, you know, they rallies, Hamas rallies, whatever they are. You'd think that they would take an hour off, maybe be like, guys, this isn't the best. Look, a guy named Jihad just killed these two random Jews out. You know, so it's just, it's just unending there. But I did see that the reaction online seemed to be a little bit more like for the first time, Brits were just like, this cannot stand anymore. I suppose your argument is it just doesn't matter. They're gonna stand it. They're just a few people tweeting it, but it's just depressing.

A (26:26)

Do you know the. There's been a bit of infighting with the Jews recently. And I'm sure you have this as well in the States, but. But also not in fighting as in woke versus Anti woke. I'm talking anti woke versus Anti woke. We're all disagreeing now. It's tearing us apart. In the uk it's never been this bad. Well, in decades anyway. Do you know that joke? It was a comedian I love called Josh. Howie told it two Jews were going to be executed. They were lined up in front of a firing squad, and the sergeant in charge asked each Jew whether he wanted a blindfold or not. And do you want a blindfold? He asked the first Jew. The first Jew said, yes. Okay, okay. Second Jew, do you want a blindfold? He said, no, and started swearing and throwing it everywhere. And at this point, the first Jew leaned over to the second and said, take a blindfold. Don't make trouble. You know, that is the state we're in right now with a lot of Jewish people who. When the Israeli minister for Diaspora said he welcomes Tommy Robinson, they went. They didn't just say, hey, I disagree with Tommy Robinson, which is fair enough. They lost their minds and called him a thug and that the Israeli might minister's an idiot and all of these things. And I'm sitting here like, guys, we've come. How long? They're not gonna let you in their lefty club. They're not gonna let you in.

B (27:37)

They're never gonna let you in. And Tommy is fighting for all of the right things, for whatever maybe people said his past was or anything else. Like, this is. This is basically the last guy in your country fighting for your country.

A (27:48)

Yeah. There are issues with Tommy Robinson and they should be spoken about in a human way because they dehumanize him. And what happened was a lot of prominent Jewish journalists wrote like they went crazy and they said, he's a thug, he's this, he's that. Who isn't gonna respond to that? Who's not gonna retaliate? Especially Tommy, because Tommy doesn't take a breath before responding. And that's maybe one of his weaknesses. It might be one of his strengths as well. He then wrote a lot of stuff which played into tropes about Jews ruling the world and things like that, which then seemed to prove their point. And it wasn't really what I think, knowing Tommy, that he meant he. He defends Jews more than most people. And he gets so much hatred from the far right and the groipers for doing so. So his point was that these guys are the elites who don't understand the regular Jewish people. But the way it came out wasn't. Wasn't great. So there are issues with Tommy. I'm going to be with him in Israel soon, and I'm going to try and bring them to him and say, hey, you know, come on, sometimes don't attack these people whose families have been killed in Israel. You know, those kinds of things. But.

B (28:53)

Right. I. I just. To me, it's like When I see them go after Tommy Robinson, it's like, you guys, it's sort of like Trump. It's like the guy's doing everything he possibly can do, and if there's some, like, loose language around it or he occasionally, like, slips up in a tweet, like, it is what it is. Like, we. We all need allies right now. I hate the word ally, but we all need. We all need allies. Okay, so if the alarm is at the level that it's at, and there's obviously the free speech stuff, too, why are you staying? And I would ask. I would ask this of any sane person in the UK right now.

A (29:27)

Yeah, I think the first thing is just my. Well, you know what? Actually, I think. I think one reason to stay is, as people say, stay and fight. I don't even, as I said to you before, I don't even know what that looks like. I don't know how one even begins to do that. But I'm here, and I suppose what I try to do is interview more and more, and that's the aim. Now, celebrities thought leaders, we saw it recently. There was a guy who called Rylan, who's popular in the uk. He was on Big Brother, and he's gay and very flamboyant, and he's on all the morning shows. You know, he could be on Loose Woman or whatever the American equivalent was. He talks shows and things, and he just came out out of nowhere. And he just. He's got this strong Essex accent. And he was just like, well, a lot of people are not happy with what's going on with all the immigrates. And it was the first time anyone on TV had dared say, now everyone went completely, you know, insane.

B (30:20)

And, wow, a gay against unfettered immigration. What a sellout.

A (30:24)

I know they went crazy and they all said, he's lying about this and that and that, but it was a start. And I think those guys have so much power over the average person. So I think we have to wake people up. So part of it is I want to be here because I want to try and change things. Now. The other part is, look, if they're coming to kill me and my family, like, the moment that happens, I need to be out the country. I don't care what everyone says about, oh, you're leaving a sinking, sinking ship. My family comes first. I'm getting the hell out of here. Where do you go? Do you pop over to France and Germany where it's even worse? And Holland? You know, I used to live in France and Germany. I spent years in these places, and it's just devastating seeing what's happened there. I. My family's from Argentina. My wife, you know, you met her. I could go back there, but, God, it's. It's far away, and it's far away from my family. I've said to you, oh, yeah, Texas, Florida, these are places that will be the last places to hold out. I wouldn't go to Israel because just look at. Look at that map. Just look at that place on the map and what it's surrounded by. And how can it. You know, I don't know if that's a safe place, as aggressive as the Israelis are. So, yeah, America, Argentina, maybe, and try and hold out. But for now, let, you know, let's see what we can do, you know.

B (31:34)

Right. Do you sense. So when you see Keir Starmer give lip service to the Manchester attack, or now you've got this Home Secretary who, frankly, as an American, I think she's kind of for this thing. What's her name? Shabama Shibumi. Yeah. I mean, do you have any hope that they will do anything at the moment?

A (31:56)

You know, what's funny is that, I.

B (31:57)

Mean, my questions are all very similar. I suppose I'm just trying to like.

A (32:00)

What do we do?

B (32:01)

Something.

A (32:01)

Yeah, yeah. They're all, what do we do? Shabana Mahmood. I mean, I was actually skeptical so far. She's said all the right things and, you know, done the right things as much as she can. I don't want to fall into the trap of imagining that every single Muslim person is against us. At the same time, there is a history for her of talking about how Islam is everything for her. Well, you know, we know what it says in. In the Quran about Jews, and we know how she feels about Palestine because she was big into that 10 years ago. So it's scary, but I want to try and give her the benefit of the doubt. The funny thing is that Keir Starmer is in a position where he's woefully unpopular. I think he's one of the most unpopular prime ministers we've ever had. And he overdoes. He sort of overcompensates. And some of his tweets are just. They're, like, much further than what Trump would say. They're like capital letters, we will get rid of all the immigrants. But nothing happens. People keep coming in. So, yeah, what were you gonna say? Sorry.

B (32:54)

Well, is there anyone. Do you see anyone on the other side of this trying, like, we Were really trying to give the devil his due here. Is anyone on the other side of this trying to reform what's happening there? Our left, which hasn't been completely overtaken by the Islamists yet the way yours has, although ours is definitely on the way. I'm always trying to find who's the sane lefty here that could maybe talk to these people. And we've got three guys, basically it's Bill Maher, but he's hated by the, the progressives at this point. You've got John Federman, two or three other people maybe. Do you have anybody on that side that's making a dent against the radicalism?

A (33:29)

There's a, there's a few politicians in labor who start saying these things. But you know, what does right and left even mean anymore? Because it used to mean economic.

B (33:38)

Right, Right, right.

A (33:39)

So if we're talking about social, I guess what you're asking is, is there anybody on the left who's on the right? You know, and, and then they're on the right. Exactly, yeah. As soon as they say anything, they're on the right. So there are people I have on. I had a great guest on Embury who was a former sort of unionist. He was with all the trade unions and stuff. I mean, that's as lefty as left gets. That's a classical lefty. But they would just, just describe him as right wing. I mean I had him in my title as left wing trade unionist. But, but he was just saying, hey, there are British people here whose entire lives have changed and, and nobody seems to care. And it's almost. Look, when I started with my old channel, it was cults and things like that on YouTube, you know, Scientology and Hasidic Jews. And I really looked into cults. I wrote a book about them. I was really fascinated by mindset works. And I went away for many years from England and then I came back and I came back and I saw, oh my, you guys are in a cult. It's unbelievable. And when I go on the radio and I try to talk to those lefties that you're talking about or even people who would call themselves conservatives, but they're a little bit old fashioned and they don't want to sort of say something that might seem impolite or whatever. I had this recently on a channel called lbc. It's like the main debates radio channel in the uk and we were talking about the grooming gangs in the uk, which I think everyone watching will know about now. All the, you know, Muslim grooming gangs now there are British ones, white British grooming gangs as well, unfortunately, but not at the rate that we have grooming gangs among the particularly British Pakistanis. It is just much, much larger. And the problem we had, as you probably know, is that the police ignored it because they feared being racist. We have that on record. We know that that is an atrocity that should never. We should never allow these people to forget that. And when you talk to these people, these kind of liberal elites, I should say, on the radio, they will nod and agree and say the right things and they'll say, yeah, it' terrible. There should never be any. We should never equivocate about, you know, someone's race and the grooming gangs and things like that. However, they will then say however, and they will equivocate in the same sentence. And they did that. When I was on the radio, this guy said that. He said, we should never quit. You know, however, you've got to remember that Andrew Tate and the far right and da, da, da, da, da. And I said, yeah, but Andrew Tate's also Muslim. And Andrew Tate's fan base is Muslim and has a much higher proportion of people who follow Andrew Tate who are Muslim. And then they just have nothing to say. It's just nothing. But it's mad that their answer to try and flip it round and blame the far right is by using one of our most infamous Muslims. It's a bizarre thing.

B (36:06)

How far gone is your media as it pertains to all of this? I mean, every time I go on the BBC, if I get one question that isn't completely loaded the wrong way, I'm amazed. And actually that the day after Charlie Kirk died, I did do an interview for about a half hour, and I thought it was mostly fair. And I was like, that was. I'm shocked. That was the BBC. But it was only because it was within hours of his death, I think. How bad in general is your mainstream media at this point?

A (36:34)

The British have a very good sense of, you know, propriety, and they believe themselves to be very civilized. So they will probably do better than many other countries when somebody from the other side dies, you know, so that's. That's why you got that fair treatment once ever. Of course, weeks later, the article starts to be written about, you know, oh, he was actually a Nazi or some horrible stuff like that.

B (36:57)

Right.

A (36:58)

How far gone? Well, it's just. It's just. It's the same as you guys. There's the new media, you know, and that old media. You expect them to Try and change and adapt. Because what they're doing isn't really working very well. They're losing audience, they're losing people. They're not doing that. They're just sticking to their guns. And again, I think it's this cultish system you get in an organization like the BBC. I mean, when I want to interview someone, I just call up Dave Rubin and I say hello and we're talking and that's the interview. Whereas with them it's like a million, like different. You've got checks you've got to make after you've done a documentary. You've got to get the legal team involved, you've got to do all of your check on the people that you interviewed afterwards. And all of those things isolated are good things, right? Of course you want to check that this was legal.

B (37:44)

Right?

A (37:45)

Of course you want to check it's not fake news. All of those things are really good things when together, over a period of decades, you start to create a really ideological slant. And for example, look at the trans stuff. There's no way an organization now as big as the BBC with all of its lawyers, with all of its bureaucrats checking everything, could ever give that a fair viewing. So I think it is just, it's not necessarily bad people. It's a bunch of people who work for the BBC. There's thousands of them and every other TV channel apart from GB News and talk TV and, and us podcasters. And it's just the system and it's, it's just going to get worse.

B (38:22)

Yeah, I mean, one thing I've noticed they do really well, although I've definitely wisened up to it on the BBC is, you know, when you're ready to do one of those hits with them and you know, usually doing it online, so you talk to the interviewer for like 30 seconds before and they're always so pleasant and with the British accent it seems doubly nice. And then next thing you know, they're, they're basically throwing out of the bus. So my final question is this because there's definitely been a theme here. Lay out your country 5, 10 and 20 years from now.

A (38:56)

Yeah, I had Professor David Betts, he came on, he's actually. Is he Canadian, but he's a professor in the UK and he believes there is an 18.5% chance that in the next five years Britain will be in a full, full blown Civil War within five years.

B (39:14)

And he sees 18.5% chance. That's very specific.

A (39:19)

It was very specific. I asked him why Exactly. Because I also found it oddly specific. But he was sort of adding each year up and dividing by something. He had a really mathematical way of doing it.

B (39:28)

Interesting.

A (39:29)

And he teaches, I can't remember what university, but he's an eminent professor and he sees it. He didn't want to frame it, I guess, because he's a professor at a university, he has to be careful. But he framed it instead of sort of Islamists versus white British or whatever, he framed it as urban versus rural, because we're all moving out the cities, and the city's now being taken over. And he imagines all kinds of urban versus rural warfare, which would be like closing the motorway or the highway that runs around London, the M25, and cutting off the power to cities, those kinds of things going on. Now. That's 18, I don't know. That's 5 years, 10, 15, 20 years. Unless something radical changes that I can't even predict, we will have civil war. I don't even know how it can. Right.

B (40:16)

There's no way.

A (40:17)

No. So I don't know. Look, I've just bought a house. And I was asking this professor afterwards, like, is this in a good place? And he was looking at it like. Like, if war breaks out? And he was like, no, is this a good place?

B (40:30)

If war breaks out? I mean, I don't know how much are they selling Downton Abbey for now?

A (40:36)

But he was talking more about, are you outside of that highway? Are you on the inside of it? That's where there's gonna be boarded up and you're gonna be stuck. Those are real questions we ask ourselves now, not even to mention, you know, what is it to be Jewish in this country right now? What is it to be gay? What is it to be a woman in this country as rights are continually taken away? So it's a really, really scary place, and I wish I had some positivity to give you. All I can say is it might not happen, and I might be wrong, and it might just sort of get a bit shitty for a while, but things are just about okay. And we stop taking immigrants from places that hate us and. And want us dead, and we instead take refugees, maybe from Ukraine or something, where they have a more similar culture to our own. But, yeah, I. I don't know. I worry. And we genuinely are sitting there, and I'm going, okay, do I want to buy the house? Do I want to put more money into it? Or do I want that money to be fluid so that I. If I have to leave in a Hurry, I've got that money. I can't suddenly sell the house if we're at war. These are real conversations. I sit the Jewish community, at least half of them are more aware than most people because they know what this is. They've seen this before. So the Jews are there with like a suitcase ready, you know the rest. Well, a lot of the United Kingdom, white British people as well. Then there's a whole situation with. Are you familiar with the anywhere versus somewhere people?

B (41:52)

No, I don't.

A (41:52)

There's a great theory that I think is, I can't remember who, who does it, who, who came up with it, but, but people will know and they'll put in the comments. But the anywhere versus somewhere people, I guess you and I would probably be anywhere people in that we are from, you know, middle class families or even if you're not, you can travel internationally, you move around. A somewhere person either doesn't have access to that, doesn't have interest in that. They are rooted to where they are. So all of this stuff that's happening, the way that streets are changing, it doesn't affect the anywhere people like me and you anywhere near as much as it affects the somewhere people. We can just leave. We have a, we'll just pack our bags and we'll go. We hang around in these nice areas. Maybe we get to go on holiday and move, you know, people who are somewhere people. Those British flags, which is rare to see in the UK because American flags are everywhere. In the US it's rare. They put up these British flags and finally they felt like, hey, okay, I've got some, you know, something because this is my home and I can't leave, you know, this is all I know. They can't just up and go to Argentina or the States. They won't get a visa there. And it's so horrible, it is grotesque to see these kinds of the anywhere people on TV or the liberal elites or whatever shouting at the somewhere people. You're all a bunch of racists. You're all a bunch of idiots. You're thugs. And they're sitting there going, nobody in my pharmacy even speaks my language right now. No, we're in a low trust society. I can't go out like wearing a skimpy shirt or whatever because people are going to say that's, you know, it's grotesque watching that happen, happen. So. Right.

B (43:25)

I mean in many sense that you just described exactly what so many people are feeling during Brexit. The same exact thing being the regular people, in essence being Lectured. You know, it's interesting because last time I was in London, the other thing I kept thinking when I was walking around was, you know, if you go to Mexico now, obviously most people are Mexican. Not every person you're gonna meet there is Mexican. But like you, you have a sense of what the culture is. You have a sense of what the food is and what the music is. And the people are somewhat similar where if you walk down the street of London, you have no idea every other person that walks by, well, a lot of them are in what Bill Maher calls the beekeeper costume. So you have that. You can only see their eyelids and they're usually not looking at you or giving you a nasty look, but you just have. It's like, what does make Britain British anymore? And that is the thing, you guys, I suppose we'll have to grapple with besides fish and chips.

A (44:15)

Do you know Catherine Burbil Singh? Do you know? I've heard British.

B (44:18)

I do, I do. I've interviewed her. I went, I spoke at. What's the school? Michaela UN School, which was wonderful, wonderful, wonderful place. And, and by the way, there were tons of young Muslim children there who just wanted to learn and, and be in a place of great education and all that stuff. It was an incredible experience, actually.

A (44:37)

Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's it. And she's hated by the left. That should be the left's utopia. But whenever they're actually given the thing they want, they, they discard it. They, they hate it because then they don't have any, like, fun work to do. They don't have people.

B (44:51)

Well, that's it. You can even see that right now as we're taping this. We're going to hold it for a few days. But, you know, with this Hamas, Israel agreement, it's like they should all be cheering, my God, the genocide's going to end in 72 hours. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But nobody, nobody on the left is saying a word about it. Positive.

A (45:06)

It won't be fun anymore. Man, my. Look where I live right now. And I obviously won't say because, but we do live a couple of streets away from two mosques, so. So we go out and you don't see another white person. Not that I need to see white people, but you don't see someone who's not in some kind of non British religious garb. You know, it would be weird if I just saw nuns all the time. Just all I see out there is a bunch of nuns. I'd be like, what the hell is going on? I've got nothing against nuns and I don't even mind Muslim people being in their kind of dress and their attire. But when it's that many, it's just, it's disconcerting. But that I don't know why they can't move here and just be like some Mexicans at least do be American, you know, why can't Muslims move him? Be British. But again, why would they? Because we've told them that we're the worst people in the world. We're the colonizers. Despite Islam being the biggest colonizing force in the world. We're the worst people ever. And what is Britishness anymore? You're right. What is it? Nobody seems to know except Katherine Burbal Singh, who's not even British, who's got this school that is something like 90% Muslim. Them. And she sits there and makes them watch the England sports games. She waves English flags around. She tells them you are English. And they hate her for it. The left, they hate her for it. They want Muslims to come in. And that's what multiculturalism is, unfortunately. And that's why it, it's gonna die. And that's why it's a horrible, horrible thing. I used to think when I was a bit more liberal minded, I was less political, I suppose I thought what I think a lot of people thought, which is that multiculturalism is a synonym for multiracial. And I didn't understand that that wasn't the case. You can be any race, any whatever, but let's at least try to assimilate to the local culture. Because if I'm in Italy, if I'm in Turkey, if I'm in Morocco, wherever I am, I will try and do that. And that is actually a loss. It might be a small one, it might be a luxury loss, so to speak, to the anywhere people because they enjoy going on holiday to Italy and it's seeming Italian and Germany seeming German and so on. And that's completely lost. I lived in Berlin for three years. There's nothing, it does nothing like Germany. I was there for three years. Nothing seemed German. It was just Turkish and Arabic. I don't know why Turkish and Arabic people can't be there and also embrace German culture while giving a bit of their own culture as well. You know, the Jews are trying to.

B (47:18)

Are you telling me that in Arabic lands there aren't a whole bunch of British people that are having no go zones and places where they're having tea and that nobody else is allowed that that.

A (47:29)

Well, you know what, it's funny, we do have that in like Spain, right? And, and as you might have in Cancun, for example, Americans going down or what was it, what's it called? Puerto Vallarta or one of those.

B (47:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Vallarta, that's it.

A (47:42)

I went there years ago. Good fun. But I mean, we do have that. And the locals hate it, right? The Spanish hate that. The British are there with all the fish and chip shops and all the bars and the pubs, the English pubs and not respecting Spanish culture and anything and not learning the language. The Spanish hate it. And they're right to because it's Spain. And I don't want to go to Spain and just see English culture because then I'll just stay in England. So this is an issue we're having right now that I think the main thing is people need to learn the difference between multiculturalism and multiracial. That that has to happen like yesterday.

B (48:15)

Andrew, I'll offer you the last word here, but I might give a bit of advice, which is that if you are, are going to think about the United States, you know, we have a communist takeover for many of the reasons that you've just described happening in New York City right now. I'd say it's a half communist, half jihadist takeover of New York, which means that Florida, one of the two places that you mentioned, is gonna be filling up even more than it's filled up. So you might wanna get moving on that. How do you wanna end this interview so that people don't wanna jump off the bridge?

A (48:42)

I'm just gonna jump out the window, mate. I'm just gone. I'm just finished. I don't know, I just want us to raise the alarm about it. I want us to remain liberal in, in, in traditional liberal sense, you know, just letting people live their lives but doing so in a way that doesn't lead to the death of everybody. I think a lot of people are responsible for what's happened. We can't just be angry. We need to convince them that's the people on the left, the liberal elite, whatever. A lot of people, and no one wants to say this, a lot of people in the Jewish left, the Jewish center, have been part of this, you know, they have been. And I know that plays into a kind of groiper stereotype. But you talk about New York, it's no surprise that it's New York and places like San Francisco and la. It's obviously not just Jewish people. It's all sorts of people who move to those places feel like they're all liberal. Fuck the places up and then move to Austin to try and do the same thing to Texas. You know, those people will never wake up. But we have to make them try. We have to try to make them wake up. That's what I want to leave people with.

B (49:37)

Well, Andrew, I am supposedly going to be in London in June for Jordan Peterson's next ARC conference. And unless you fled to America at that point, Fish and chips on me.

A (49:48)

Oh, thanks, man. See you then.

B (49:50)

Good to see you, my friend.