The Rubin Report

Episode: Don Lemon Forgot About This Piece of Evidence Which Could Send Him to Jail

Guest: Harmeet Dhillon (Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division, DOJ)
Host: Dave Rubin
Date: February 7, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dave Rubin speaks with Harmeet Dhillon, the Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division at the DOJ. The discussion centers around the recent indictment of Don Lemon and others for violating the FACE (Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances) Act during a protest at a Minneapolis church. The conversation covers the details of the case, the balance between protest rights and the sanctity of religious spaces, the challenges of enforcing civil rights laws, the current state of protests in America, law enforcement responses, and wider DOJ reforms under the current administration.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Don Lemon Case and the FACE Act

Timestamps: [01:30]–[11:37]

• Background:

  • Nine individuals, including Don Lemon, have been indicted for a protest incident at a Minneapolis church.
  • The DOJ believes all indicted parties violated both the FACE Act and the Klan Act.

• What Is the FACE Act?

  • Passed in 1994 to protect abortion clinics from obstruction by protestors, later extended to guard houses of worship.
  • Previously, enforcement focused mostly on pro-life protests at clinics; now being applied to religious institutions targeted by protests.

• Notable Evidence:

  • Don Lemon provided live-streamed video evidence of himself and others planning the protest, bringing coffee and donuts to co-conspirators, and using the pronoun "we" to describe their intentions.
  • He turned off his microphone to conceal discussions at one point ([01:30]).

• Alleged Violations:

  • Protestors entered, obstructed, and intimidated people, causing injuries and chaos among more than 400 parishioners, some of whom feared for their safety and that of their children.
  • Don Lemon was allegedly seen blocking an exit while interviewing people ([04:00]).

• Klan Act Relevance:

  • The Klan Act, a Reconstruction-era law, makes it a felony for two or more people to conspire to violate others' civil rights, including those protected by the FACE Act ([04:40]).

Notable Quote

"Don Lemon helpfully provided us with live stream video of planning... using the Royal 'we' repeatedly... even turned off his microphone at one point to conceal what the co-conspirators were talking about doing."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([01:30])

2. Journalistic Protections and First Amendment Limitations

Timestamps: [08:54]–[14:15]

• Claimed Journalistic Immunity:

  • Don Lemon and supporters argue he should have First Amendment protections because he was acting as a journalist.
  • Harmeet Dhillon rebuts this, stressing the First Amendment does not override others’ rights to peaceful worship or safety.

• Distinction on Free Speech:

  • The right to protest has time, place, and manner restrictions; invading private property, like houses of worship, is not protected speech.

Notable Quotes

"The First Amendment is not a license to violate other people's First Amendment rights."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([09:20])

"Do we want to see this type of a scene with neo-Nazis doing a protest in a synagogue, or people who dislike Islam doing a protest in a mosque? ... There will be violence. There will be anarchy. There will be a retreat from houses of worship."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([10:17])

"When everyone’s a journalist, no one’s a journalist."
— Dave Rubin ([14:15])

3. The Slippery Slope of Journalistic Excuses

Timestamps: [12:15]–[14:38]

• Potential for Abuse:
  • Allowing protestors to avoid legal consequences by claiming to be "journalists" would create loopholes for all manner of disruptive, and even dangerous, behaviors in sensitive venues.
  • Precedents from Obama and prior administrations show that journalists are not immune to prosecution when laws are broken.

Notable Quote

"There's no get out of jail free card. This is not monopoly for podcasters."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([13:52])

4. Modern Protest Culture and Law Enforcement Challenges

Timestamps: [15:37]–[19:46]

• Escalating Lawlessness:

  • Rubin and Dhillon express concern that large-scale protests—sometimes lawless—are tolerated in blue cities, often with little enforcement.
  • BLM protests were permitted without proper licenses during COVID, while other, non-progressive demonstrators were denied permits or suppressed.

• Policing Dilemmas:

  • Law enforcement in "liberal cities" often stands down, fearing repercussions from DOJ intervention or city authorities if they enforce laws against certain protesters.

Notable Quote

"When this lawlessness occurs, they've been trained to stand down... when you're going into these types of situations where a protest could break out, you're on your own. Everyone make an exit plan for how they're gonna get their family safely out of there."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([18:10])

5. DOJ Enforcement and Political Optics

Timestamps: [19:46]–[22:00]

• Enforcement Dilemmas:

  • Current DOJ is more active, striving to protect places of worship.
  • Administration faces criticism: if they enforce laws, they are seen as "authoritarian"; if they don't, cities "are left to the jackals" ([19:46]).

• Policy Rationale:

  • The aim is to restore safety and the right to worship without fear of politically motivated disruption.

Notable Quote

"We can't tolerate any of this protest coming into our houses of worship. If we do, we will have lost the ability to worship peacefully in this country."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([20:50])

6. Internal DOJ Culture and Legal System Challenges

Timestamps: [22:51]–[26:47]

• "Cleaning the Swamp":

  • Dhillon describes shaking up decades-old bureaucracy and internal resistance, causing long-entrenched staff to quit.
  • Staffing challenges: finding talented, committed lawyers willing to relocate to DC and take on civil rights enforcement jobs.

• Judicial Unpredictability:

  • Concern over "radical judges" writing opinionated, precedent-defying rulings, making legal outcomes less predictable and more political.

Notable Quote

"The law is supposed to be something where it's like a machine... It's not like a machine, it's more like a slot machine now."
— Harmeet Dhillon ([25:42])

7. Broader DOJ Initiatives and Civil Rights Focus

Timestamps: [27:06]–[31:17]

• Rising Antisemitism and Attacks on Places of Worship:

  • DOJ prioritizing investigation and prosecution of such attacks.

• Second Amendment Cases:

  • DOJ has filed suits in support of gun rights, including challenges to DC gun ownership restrictions and LA County's concealed carry permitting.

• Voter Integrity:

  • DOJ active in cases supporting voter ID laws and cleaning up state voter rolls.

• Americans with Disabilities:

  • DOJ prosecuting companies like Uber for discrimination against the blind and disabled.

• Eliminating DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) in Public Institutions:

  • Large-scale settlements reached with universities and public agencies to dismantle discriminatory hiring/admissions practices ([31:17]).

8. Accountability and Long-term DEI Oversight

Timestamps: [30:39]–[31:17]

• Ensuring Compliance:
  • DOJ keeps oversight rights on institutions that receive federal dollars; follow-up investigations occur if "rebranding" of illegal policies happens.
  • "We don't let them get away with it." — Harmeet Dhillon ([31:17])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Don Lemon helpfully provided us with live stream video of planning... even turned off his microphone..." — Harmeet Dhillon ([01:30])
• "The First Amendment is not a license to violate other people's First Amendment rights." — Harmeet Dhillon ([09:20])
• "There's no get out of jail free card. This is not Monopoly for podcasters." — Harmeet Dhillon ([13:52])
• "Everyone make an exit plan for how they're gonna get their family safely out of there... Are we gonna start saying that about going to church now?" — Harmeet Dhillon ([18:10])
• "The law... it's more like a slot machine now..." — Harmeet Dhillon ([25:42])
• "We don't let them get away with it." — Harmeet Dhillon ([31:17])

Episode Timeline: Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |--------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | [01:30] | Harmeet Dhillon describes evidence against Don Lemon | | [04:00] | Breakdown of FACE Act and Klan Act | | [09:20] | First Amendment rights versus civil rights violations | | [12:15] | Dangers of "journalist" loopholes in protest law | | [15:37] | Policing protests: double standards in enforcement | | [19:46] | DOJ enforcement dilemmas in the face of potential criticism | | [22:51] | DOJ reforms, staffing, and the "deep state" challenge | | [25:42] | Challenges posed by activist judges | | [27:06] | DOJ’s focus on worship, gun rights, voting, and disability rights | | [30:39] | DOJ's approach to DEI and ensuring ongoing compliance |

Tone and Style

The episode features Dave Rubin’s signature, conversational interview style—direct, slightly irreverent, and focused on free speech issues. Harmeet Dhillon speaks plainly, at times bluntly, and expresses strong convictions about legal reform, equal treatment, and the defense of civil rights and religious liberty.

For Listeners

This episode offers an in-depth look at evolving civil rights law enforcement, protest culture in America, and internal DOJ dynamics under the Trump administration. Especially valuable for anyone interested in legal reform, First Amendment controversies, or the intersection of politics and law.