The Rubin Report – "Explaining the Real Reason We Need Christmas"

Guest: Dr. Frank Turek
Host: Dave Rubin
Date: December 24, 2025

Episode Overview

In this special Christmas episode, Dave Rubin invites Dr. Frank Turek—Christian apologist, author, and host of "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"—to explore the deeper significance of Christmas. The conversation focuses on the theological underpinnings of the holiday, the universal problem of evil, the philosophical foundations of morality, and the importance of grace over justice. The pair also discuss religious pluralism, the challenge of commercialism, and the importance of free speech and civil discourse, especially in light of recent personal and national tragedies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Heart of Christmas: Justice, Love, and the Problem of Evil

• Frank Turek explains why Jesus came into the world, highlighting the paradox of God’s justice and love:

  • God is "infinitely just" and "the standard of justice," so all injustice (evil) must be addressed.
  • Everyone has committed injustice—“We've all been unjust. Everybody.” (01:34)
  • God’s solution: find an "innocent substitute" to take the punishment for humanity’s sins. "The only place he can find an innocent substitute is in himself. So he adds humanity to his deity. And on Christmas, he comes into this world." (01:34–02:26)

• Turek revisits the problem of evil, arguing that without God there is no objective morality:

  • "Evil can't exist unless good exists. And good can't exist unless God exists." (03:08)
  • Without a transcendent standard, right and wrong are just “a matter of opinion.”
  • Christianity is unique, he asserts, in positively responding to the problem of evil: "Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil... If we had never sinned... Jesus wouldn't be necessary." (03:08–07:00)

2. Grace Versus Justice: Christianity’s Distinctive Message

• Turek contrasts what people receive in the afterlife: justice or grace. He emphasizes that, before God, "I don't want justice. I want grace. The only way I can get grace is if somebody pays my penalty for me. And that's what Jesus did." (07:00–08:45)

Notable Quote:

“There’s only two things you can get in the afterlife. You can get justice or you can get grace. Does anybody watching us right now want justice from an infinitely just being? I don’t. I wouldn’t make it. I’d be toast. I want grace.”
— Frank Turek (06:20)

3. Hypocrisy in Christianity & Keeping Focus on Jesus

• Dave Rubin raises the issue of hypocrisy—many professing believers fail to live out Christ’s teachings (07:00).
• Turek responds with a musical analogy:
  • “When somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame?... You don’t blame Beethoven... So when somebody plays Jesus poorly, you don’t blame Jesus.” (08:03)
  • He insists that Christianity must be centered on Christ, not the failings of Christians: "Christianity is not Christians. Christianity is Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus." (08:03)

Notable Quote:

“When somebody plays Jesus poorly, you don’t blame Jesus.”
— Frank Turek (08:03)

4. The Challenge of Commercialism and Maintaining Meaning

• Rubin asks how to reconcile modern consumerism with religious meaning during holidays—referring both to Christmas and Hanukkah (09:19).
• Turek answers:
  • Gift-giving traces to "the greatest gift ever given"—God giving Jesus.
  • Tradition of wise men bringing gifts is rooted in recognizing Jesus as the sacrificial Savior.
  • Many holiday traditions, like those tied to St. Nicholas, can be meaningful if their original significance is remembered. (10:55–12:03)

5. Religious Pluralism, Dialogue, and Free Speech

• Turek commends Rubin for providing a platform for Christian ideas despite not being a Christian himself:
  • They discuss the growing unwillingness to engage across ideological divides, particularly from the far left.
  • Turek argues the "prince of peace came to end all that" (12:10), and that civil discourse is crucial.

Notable Quote:

"Why is it that somebody like you and somebody like me who are on the right can withstand maybe ideas they may not agree with and can be friends and talk about these things?... The prince of peace came to end all that."
— Frank Turek (12:10)

• Rubin reflects on the foundation of friendship and dialogue, referencing emotional connections even amid political disagreement:
  • “We're both on a voyage together that I think more people should probably be part of.” (13:12–14:02)

6. The Role of Politics and Protecting Religious Freedom

• Frank Turek closes with a reflection (quoting "Charlie," a recently murdered friend):
  • “Politics is not the most important thing we do, but it helps us do the most important thing we do.” (16:00)
  • He urges Christians not to retreat from the political sphere, as political freedom enables religious expression and evangelism: “If we don’t protect our ability to preach and live what we believe, we’re gonna lose it.” (16:00–17:33)
• Rubin and Turek praise mutual friends and emphasize the importance of friendships across disagreements.

Notable Quote:

“If you’re gonna say you gotta agree with everybody on everything to be friends, are you crazy?”
— Frank Turek (17:08)

Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On the nature of good and evil:
  “Evil can't exist unless good exists. And good can't exist unless God exists. Because if there is no God, everything's just a matter of opinion.”
  — Frank Turek (03:08)

• On the Christmas message:
  “The story of Jesus...is that God came into the world to save ourselves from ourselves from the evil we've done. He takes the punishment upon himself.”
  — Frank Turek (06:20)

• On Christian hypocrisy and focus:
  “Christianity is not Christians. Christianity is Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus.”
  — Frank Turek (08:03)

• On the value of dialogue:
  “I have no problem hearing things that are coming from good people... Nothing you said here offends me or anything else. I think it's great.”
  — Dave Rubin (13:12)

• On protecting freedom of worship:
  “Why are there no churches in Saudi Arabia or Iran or North Korea? Because politically they've ruled it out. So if we don't protect our ability to preach and live what we believe, we're gonna lose it.”
  — Frank Turek (16:31)

Key Timestamps

• 01:34 – Turek explains the reason for Jesus coming into the world (problem of justice and love)
• 03:08 – The necessity of God for objective good and evil; the role of Christianity in addressing evil
• 06:20 – Heaven, justice, and grace: the distinct message of Jesus' sacrifice
• 08:03 – Handling Christian hypocrisy; the “Beethoven analogy”
• 10:55 – Gift-giving, commercialism, and returning to the true meaning of Christmas
• 12:10 – Mutual respect and the importance of civil discourse
• 16:00 – Charlie's insight: politics protects the ability to “do the most important thing we do”
• 17:33 – The value of dialogue and friendship across disagreements

Tone and Language

• Frank Turek: Passionate, apologetic, illustrative; uses direct analogies and speaks in clear, conversational theology.
• Dave Rubin: Curious, open-minded, warm; bridges personal reflection with critical questions about faith, tradition, and culture.
• Overall: Respectful, philosophical, and sincere—in keeping with the season and the gravity of recent personal losses.

Conclusion

This episode provides listeners with a thoughtful, heartfelt unpacking of why Christmas matters beyond commercial trappings—rooted in the Christian narrative of grace and redemption, yet approached in a way that welcomes skepticism and fosters civil, cross-belief dialogue. The exchanges between Rubin and Turek underscore the possibility for deep connection and mutual respect, even when worldviews diverge. Listeners are encouraged to remember the deeper significance of the holiday, cherish freedom of belief and speech, and pursue relationships and conversations that transcend mere agreement.