Explaining the Real Reason We Need Christmas | Frank Turek

Summary

The Rubin Report – "Explaining the Real Reason We Need Christmas"

Guest: Dr. Frank Turek
Host: Dave Rubin
Date: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this special Christmas episode, Dave Rubin invites Dr. Frank Turek—Christian apologist, author, and host of "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"—to explore the deeper significance of Christmas. The conversation focuses on the theological underpinnings of the holiday, the universal problem of evil, the philosophical foundations of morality, and the importance of grace over justice. The pair also discuss religious pluralism, the challenge of commercialism, and the importance of free speech and civil discourse, especially in light of recent personal and national tragedies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Heart of Christmas: Justice, Love, and the Problem of Evil

• Frank Turek explains why Jesus came into the world, highlighting the paradox of God’s justice and love:

  • God is "infinitely just" and "the standard of justice," so all injustice (evil) must be addressed.
  • Everyone has committed injustice—“We've all been unjust. Everybody.” (01:34)
  • God’s solution: find an "innocent substitute" to take the punishment for humanity’s sins. "The only place he can find an innocent substitute is in himself. So he adds humanity to his deity. And on Christmas, he comes into this world." (01:34–02:26)

• Turek revisits the problem of evil, arguing that without God there is no objective morality:

  • "Evil can't exist unless good exists. And good can't exist unless God exists." (03:08)
  • Without a transcendent standard, right and wrong are just “a matter of opinion.”
  • Christianity is unique, he asserts, in positively responding to the problem of evil: "Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil... If we had never sinned... Jesus wouldn't be necessary." (03:08–07:00)

2. Grace Versus Justice: Christianity’s Distinctive Message

• Turek contrasts what people receive in the afterlife: justice or grace. He emphasizes that, before God, "I don't want justice. I want grace. The only way I can get grace is if somebody pays my penalty for me. And that's what Jesus did." (07:00–08:45)

Notable Quote:

“There’s only two things you can get in the afterlife. You can get justice or you can get grace. Does anybody watching us right now want justice from an infinitely just being? I don’t. I wouldn’t make it. I’d be toast. I want grace.”
— Frank Turek (06:20)

3. Hypocrisy in Christianity & Keeping Focus on Jesus

• Dave Rubin raises the issue of hypocrisy—many professing believers fail to live out Christ’s teachings (07:00).
• Turek responds with a musical analogy:
  • “When somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame?... You don’t blame Beethoven... So when somebody plays Jesus poorly, you don’t blame Jesus.” (08:03)
  • He insists that Christianity must be centered on Christ, not the failings of Christians: "Christianity is not Christians. Christianity is Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus." (08:03)

Notable Quote:

“When somebody plays Jesus poorly, you don’t blame Jesus.”
— Frank Turek (08:03)

4. The Challenge of Commercialism and Maintaining Meaning

• Rubin asks how to reconcile modern consumerism with religious meaning during holidays—referring both to Christmas and Hanukkah (09:19).
• Turek answers:
  • Gift-giving traces to "the greatest gift ever given"—God giving Jesus.
  • Tradition of wise men bringing gifts is rooted in recognizing Jesus as the sacrificial Savior.
  • Many holiday traditions, like those tied to St. Nicholas, can be meaningful if their original significance is remembered. (10:55–12:03)

5. Religious Pluralism, Dialogue, and Free Speech

• Turek commends Rubin for providing a platform for Christian ideas despite not being a Christian himself:
  • They discuss the growing unwillingness to engage across ideological divides, particularly from the far left.
  • Turek argues the "prince of peace came to end all that" (12:10), and that civil discourse is crucial.

Notable Quote:

"Why is it that somebody like you and somebody like me who are on the right can withstand maybe ideas they may not agree with and can be friends and talk about these things?... The prince of peace came to end all that."
— Frank Turek (12:10)

• Rubin reflects on the foundation of friendship and dialogue, referencing emotional connections even amid political disagreement:
  • “We're both on a voyage together that I think more people should probably be part of.” (13:12–14:02)

6. The Role of Politics and Protecting Religious Freedom

• Frank Turek closes with a reflection (quoting "Charlie," a recently murdered friend):
  • “Politics is not the most important thing we do, but it helps us do the most important thing we do.” (16:00)
  • He urges Christians not to retreat from the political sphere, as political freedom enables religious expression and evangelism: “If we don’t protect our ability to preach and live what we believe, we’re gonna lose it.” (16:00–17:33)
• Rubin and Turek praise mutual friends and emphasize the importance of friendships across disagreements.

Notable Quote:

“If you’re gonna say you gotta agree with everybody on everything to be friends, are you crazy?”
— Frank Turek (17:08)

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Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On the nature of good and evil:
  “Evil can't exist unless good exists. And good can't exist unless God exists. Because if there is no God, everything's just a matter of opinion.”
  — Frank Turek (03:08)

• On the Christmas message:
  “The story of Jesus...is that God came into the world to save ourselves from ourselves from the evil we've done. He takes the punishment upon himself.”
  — Frank Turek (06:20)

• On Christian hypocrisy and focus:
  “Christianity is not Christians. Christianity is Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus.”
  — Frank Turek (08:03)

• On the value of dialogue:
  “I have no problem hearing things that are coming from good people... Nothing you said here offends me or anything else. I think it's great.”
  — Dave Rubin (13:12)

• On protecting freedom of worship:
  “Why are there no churches in Saudi Arabia or Iran or North Korea? Because politically they've ruled it out. So if we don't protect our ability to preach and live what we believe, we're gonna lose it.”
  — Frank Turek (16:31)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:34 – Turek explains the reason for Jesus coming into the world (problem of justice and love)
• 03:08 – The necessity of God for objective good and evil; the role of Christianity in addressing evil
• 06:20 – Heaven, justice, and grace: the distinct message of Jesus' sacrifice
• 08:03 – Handling Christian hypocrisy; the “Beethoven analogy”
• 10:55 – Gift-giving, commercialism, and returning to the true meaning of Christmas
• 12:10 – Mutual respect and the importance of civil discourse
• 16:00 – Charlie's insight: politics protects the ability to “do the most important thing we do”
• 17:33 – The value of dialogue and friendship across disagreements

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Tone and Language

• Frank Turek: Passionate, apologetic, illustrative; uses direct analogies and speaks in clear, conversational theology.
• Dave Rubin: Curious, open-minded, warm; bridges personal reflection with critical questions about faith, tradition, and culture.
• Overall: Respectful, philosophical, and sincere—in keeping with the season and the gravity of recent personal losses.

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Conclusion

This episode provides listeners with a thoughtful, heartfelt unpacking of why Christmas matters beyond commercial trappings—rooted in the Christian narrative of grace and redemption, yet approached in a way that welcomes skepticism and fosters civil, cross-belief dialogue. The exchanges between Rubin and Turek underscore the possibility for deep connection and mutual respect, even when worldviews diverge. Listeners are encouraged to remember the deeper significance of the holiday, cherish freedom of belief and speech, and pursue relationships and conversations that transcend mere agreement.

Transcript

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Drew Ski]

Zoe, this thing weighs a ton.

[Frank Turek]

Drew Ski, live with your legs, man. Santa. Santa, did you get my letter?

[Drew Ski]

He's talking to you britches.

[Frank Turek]

I'm not.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Of course he did.

[Frank Turek]

Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list. And elf.

[Drew Ski]

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[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

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[Frank Turek]

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[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

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[Drew Ski]

Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.

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[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

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[Frank Turek]

Story of of Jesus the reason that Jesus had to come into this world is because since God is infinitely just, he's the standard of justice. He can't allow injustice to go unpunished. And we've all been unjust. Everybody. So what does he do in order to not punish us? Because he's also infinitely loving. He has to find an innocent substitute to punish on our behalf, who takes our punishment upon himself voluntarily. Where can he find an innocent substitute in any of us? He can't. We're all fallen. We've all done wrong. The only place he can find an innocent substitute is in himself. So he adds humanity to his deity. And on Christmas, he comes into this world.

[Dave Rubin]

In a normal world. And if Charlie was with us, and if things had not gone so haywire over these three Months every year I usually bring on Rabbi David Wolpe to talk about Hanukkah. And I try to bring on either Bishop Aaron or I've done this with you before, or several other Christian evangelical. Doesn't matter, the denomination Christians to talk about Jesus and to talk about Christmas. And this is the season and I hope, you know, we pre tape these things. But I always hope people take a little time away from the computer to be with family and friends and everything else. So how can I ask you this in the broadest way? I mean, what do you want people to know about Jesus? About his birth, about this time of year that is most important?

[Frank Turek]

Great question, Dave. I think we saw Evil Live September 10th when Charlie was murdered. But evil can't exist unless good exists. And good can't exist unless God exists. Because if there is no God, everything's just a matter of opinion. The guy that shot Charlie had an opinion that he ought to die. And obviously the rest of us said, no, he shouldn't die. That's just a matter of opinion. Unless there's a moral standard beyond us that we're obligated to obey. And that's God himself, His nature himself. So without God, nothing's right or wrong. There are no rights. Everything's just a matter of preference. But we know these things aren't just a matter of preference. And we know not only did Tyler Robinson do wrong, but we've all done wrong in our lives. I mean, we're not perfect people. We've sinned, we've done wrong things. And so the story of Jesus, the reason that Jesus had to come into this world is because since God is infinitely just, he's the standard of justice. He can't allow injustice to go unpunished. And we've all been unjust. Everybody. So what does he do in order to not punish us? Because he's also infinitely loving. He has to find an innocent substitute to punish on our behalf, who takes our punishment upon himself voluntarily. Where can he find an innocent substitute in any of us? He can't. We're all fallen. We've all done wrong. The only place he can find an innocent substitute is in himself. So he adds humanity to his deity. And on Christmas he comes into this world and then he grows up. He allows the people that rebelled against him to torture and kill him so he could take their punishment upon himself. And then he rises from the dead to prove that he really is God. And then he offers us the payment that he actually provided to all of us. And the way we Appropriate that payment is we accept what he's done, we trust in him, and then we make that message known to everybody else. So as I said at Charlie's funeral, that Charlie is not in heaven now because he sacrificed himself for his Savior. Charlie is in heaven now because his Savior sacrificed himself for Charlie. KIRK so the reason that Christianity is true is because there's evidence for it. But the reason it had to happen is because evil entered the world. And when evil enters the world, God comes in and says, I'll take the price of evil on myself, so you don't have to. And if you trust in me, you'll not only be forgiven, you'll be given my righteousness. So that's really the reason Jesus had to come. I like to say to people when they say, you know, if there is a good God, why is there evil in the world? I say, do you realize that Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil? If we had never sinned, if nobody had ever done wrong, Jesus wouldn't be necessary. He wouldn't have to come into this world. But he did come into this world because we're fallen. So the message of Easter, or the message of Christmas and Easter is that God came into the world to save ourselves from ourselves from the evil we've done. He takes the punishment upon himself. And I always say to people, and I said it at Charlie's memorial, that there's only two things you can get in the afterlife. You can get justice or you can get grace. Does anybody watching us right now want justice from an infinitely just being? I don't. I wouldn't make it. I'd be toast. I want grace. The only way I can get grace is if somebody pays my penalty for me. And that's what Jesus did.

[Dave Rubin]

You know, it's interesting, because what I love about that message is, to me, in some sense, in a weird way, it doesn't matter if you're a believer or the most devout Christian or a Jew or anything else. Like, you should be able to hear that message and whether you mean it, whether you. Whether you hear it in a literal sense. And there's obviously always a debate about the literal nature of all this or a metaphorical sense, like, why wouldn't you take a little bit of that? And I guess to connect this to where we started, it's like so many, unfortunately, of the people professing to believe in this are behaving in a different way. And that's a. Well, I guess that's why we pause this time of year.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, it is. And let me say this about that, Dave, because that's a big, that's a great objection that people bring up to Christianity. You know, if, if Candace claims to be a Christian or if Frank claims to be a Christian but you know, he's not perfect or all these people claim to be Christians and they're, they're hypocrites. And I like to ask people a question when they bring up the hypocrisy objection. And the question is this, when somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame?

[Dave Rubin]

Right?

[Frank Turek]

You don't blame Beethoven, right? Yeah. So when somebody plays Jesus poorly, you don't blame Jesus. Look, just because I'm not true and beautiful or Candace or anybody that claims to be a Christian isn't true and beautiful doesn't mean Jesus isn't true and beautiful. And so I say to people, newsflash, Christianity is not Christians. Christianity is Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus. So that's the message that I think we need to get back to. I, I can't be good on my own, Dave. I'm a fallen human being. I have a selfish, sinful nature. I deserve punishment. But thanks to God himself who added humanity to his deity, he'll take my punishment upon himself because I don't want.

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[Frank Turek]

Qualifying credit required on justice. I want grace. That's what I want.

[Dave Rubin]

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[Frank Turek]

Well, I think you can always bring it back to the truth that the reason we give gifts is because the greatest gift ever given was the gift God gave gave to us through his Son who takes our punishment upon himself. And of course the wise men brought gifts to Jesus knowing that he was and they worshiped him according to the scriptures. Right? He's, he's a baby, but they're worshiping him because they know he is the sacrifice for their own sin. So gift giving comes from Christianity, comes from the, the truth of Christianity. And my friend Bill Federer, I usually have him on my podcast, I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist podcast every year to talk about the traditions Christmas and they all trace back somewhere to the truth. Like St. Nicholas was a real guy who gave gifts to people at Christmas commemorating the, the, the gift that God gave us. So it traces back. Even though some of these traditions have got have gone a long way off, I don't think there's anything wrong with engaging in some of these holiday traditions that have come up over the past couple of centuries. As long as we know the true meaning of the season.

[Dave Rubin]

Is there anything else we should leave people? We're trying to keep this a little bit short because I want people to engage with the season and not just be staring at their screens today.

[Frank Turek]

Well, what I want to commemorate is, or I want to applaud is you, Dave, because unless something's changed, you're not a Christian, but you're open minded enough to Hear the truth of the Christian message and to put me on your platform to let people know about that. Why is it that somebody like you and somebody like me who are on the right can withstand maybe ideas they may not agree with and can be friends and talk about these things? But some people, it seems, on the far left, I guess there are folks on the right, too, that do this. But folks on the far left, if you don't agree with their ideas or you don't agree with their viewpoint, they often resort to violence. Dave, the prince of peace came to end all that. And I just commend you so much for hearing this message when you might not even personally believe it. So thank you for that.

[Dave Rubin]

As I've said to you before, when we've done this several times and we should definitely do it more than once a year, your own personal beliefs and the traditions that you come from and all of those things, I have no problem hearing things that are coming from good people. I have no problem engaging with other people's traditions and history and all of those things. And nothing you said here offends me or anything else. I think it's great. And I think that's why three months ago today, when I saw you standing on that line, we were both on the concession line, actually, we were. And I saw you and we hugged each other, both with tears in our eyes. And it was like seeing an old friend, even though we've only met in person once because we're. We're both on a voyage together that I think. I think more people should probably be part of.

[Frank Turek]

That's right, brother. Well. Well, keep doing what you're doing. Keep preaching the truth that you do on your. I'm a subscriber, your YouTube channel. I see so many of the. So many of the videos that you put out. And last time we talked, you know, when I was on and we were talking about Christianity and some other things, I asked you privately, I said, hey, Dave, why do you do this? You know, every once in a while you take a.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry Christmas tree.

[Drew Ski]

Zoe, this thing weighs a ton.

[Frank Turek]

Drew, ski lift with your legs, man. Santa.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Santa, did you get my letter?

[Drew Ski]

He's talking to you, Bridges.

[Frank Turek]

I'm not.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Of course he did.

[Frank Turek]

Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list and elf.

[Drew Ski]

I'm six three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister. And AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone.

[Frank Turek]

Or give it as a gift.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

And the best part, you can, you can make the switch to T Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.

[Drew Ski]

Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.

[Frank Turek]

Kimber.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

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[Frank Turek]

Visit t mobile.com Break from the political side of things. And you were like, man, I just can't stay in this stuff all the time. It's so depressing, right? Give me a positive message.

[Dave Rubin]

Well, that's what it is. And that's, you know, just because of the way the calendar worked out this year. We're at a studio for 17 days and it's like, I love what I'm doing. I love the people I'm working with. I love creating the things that we create here and then also being able to get away and being able to have these conversations and know that, you know, politics is here. There's something else up here. Like if you can't acknowledge that, then you will become all the things that we've talked about here that you don't want to become. So I just think, let me give.

[Frank Turek]

You one last thing. Yeah, please. Let me give you one last thing from Charlie, if I can. Of course, Charlie, being an evangelical Christian like me, used to say this. He used to say that politics is not the most important thing we do, but it helps us do the most important thing we do. And what he meant by that was that in our country, at least to now anyway, we have religious freedom, right? We can freely worship and freely tell people about Jesus or whatever belief system we have. That's not the case in other places in the world. And this is why I'm so frustrated with Christians or conservatives in general who say, well, I don't get involved in politics. Like, they'll say, well, I just preach the gospel. And I want to say to them, hey, do you realize that the laws that are made in your country affect your ability to preach the gospel and live the gospel? I mean, why Are there no churches in Saudi Arabia or Iran or North Korea? Because politically they've ruled it out. So if we don't protect our ability to preach and live what we believe, we're gonna lose it. And that's why I commend what you're doing. Because you're for freedom of speech, you're for freedom of expression, you're for freedom of religion even though we don't agree on everything. So we can be allies on those things and friends even though we don't agree on everything. In fact, Charlie was once told, don't be a friend with such and such a person because you don't agree with that person. I think it had to do with Candace. And he said, hey, if you're gonna say you gotta agree with everybody on everything to be friends, are you crazy?

[Dave Rubin]

Right? The whole point of Charlie and my friendship when we started was that we disagreed on politics and we would discuss it at these college events. Well, look, not only did did Charlie do do incredible things throughout his life. I mean, it's amazing that even post his assassination, this new book has just come out which is honoring the Jewish Sabbath and why he as a Christian. Well, there you go. There you go. So, you know, we'll put the link to the book down below.

[Frank Turek]

Great book. I, I, I, I. He wanted me to edit it. I didn't. I hardly had to change a word. Dave, it's brilliant. Brilliant. 31 years old.

[Dave Rubin]

Frank, we will absolutely do this more than once a year. I wish you and your family a merry Christmas and I thank you for taking the time.

[Frank Turek]

God bless you, Dave. Thank you so much.

[Dave Rubin]

If you're looking for more soulful vibes to spark your inner guru, check out our spirituality playlist. And if you want to watch full interviews on a wide variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist. All right over here. And to get notified of all future videos, be sure to subscribe and click the notification bell.

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[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

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