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Trump Vs. Pope Leo, the Real Threat of Ai & Fraying Social Fabric | Bishop Robert Barron
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Bishop Robert Barron
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
school, whatever that might be.
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Bishop Robert Barron
You ready? We're ready.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
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Jan from Toyota
This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota and the fun starts now. We're kicking things off by kicking up mud. Jump in, campers. We're going off roading in a 4Runner. Next we're heading to the hot springs in Arab 4. And finally, park your tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows. The summer starts here.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Dealer inventory may vary, so your participating Toyota dealer for details. Event ends June 1st. Toyota, let's go places. All right, Bishop Robert Barron. It's a pleasure to sit down with you first. I owe you a thanks before anything else because obviously we are doing this in your studio with your staff and your special protein pretzels which you were telling me all about. But we just sat down and we did your show. Yeah, you've had a beautiful, extraordinary table that we sat at that was just great. And we had a wonderful conversation that you're going to post on your channel. And then as we wrapped, we sort of discussed how we would angle this. And I really just want this to be part two or an extension of the conversation. So we're just, in some sense, we're just, we're swapping the chairs and we're gonna flip the script a little bit because you were interviewing me a bit more. But obviously it's a two way conversation here. But I thought where we'd start for a moment. So we're in Rochester, Minnesota, and you were talking about the Mayo Clinic, which obviously is the real heart of this city. City. And there's an interesting connection to the Catholic Church. I thought maybe we'd start there. Then we'll dive into culture, politics, religion,
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Bishop Robert Barron
good pretzels, all the rest of it.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah.
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Bishop Robert Barron
But there is indeed a strong connection to the church. It's a very interesting story. So go back to the early 1880s in this little town, Rochester, Minnesota, little farm town. And there was a doctor, Dr. Mayo, with his two sons. And a tornado goes through the town, very destructive, knocks over buildings, kills a number of people, injures many more. Right. So Mayo is looking for a Place to take care of all these suffering people. Well, who's in town at the same time? But Mother Alfred. Mother Alfred is the Mother Superior of a Franciscan teaching order, right? And their convent is there. But it's summertime, so the kids aren't there. And the nuns aren't teaching. So he says to Mother Alfred, May I use your convent and the school as a makeshift hospital? Yes, you may. So then the sisters who were not trained as nurses, they were trained as teachers. They become nurses taking care of people. The whole thing's over now, and we're going to go back to normal. But Mother Alfred says to Dr. Mayo. We are to build a proper hospital in Rochester. Mayo goes, okay. But then she says to me, it's very interesting, mystical, even. Little Rochester, Minnesota, late 1880s. This local sister says to Mayo, but it'll be a hospital not just for here. It'll be a hospital for the entire world. And Mayo looked at her like, what are you, out of your mind? You know, I mean, trying to raise the money to build a local hospital is one thing. You want to build a major? Yes. And she said, how much would it be? And he said, well, I think about $40,000. Which in those days would have been what, 4 billion or something. She goes, I'll do it. And by God, she did. She raised the money. And they built St. Mary's Hospital, which exists to this day. So we're in one campus of the Mayo Clinic. But the same areas on the other side of town. So the nuns are helping to staff it. Mayo says, okay, I'll be your doctor. He's got these two sons, Will and Charlie, right? And they, like their dad, want to be doctors. But they go to Europe and they study the highest level surgery and different techniques. They come home to the hospital, St. Mary's and they set up a clinic to train doctors. So it's the time a lot of doctors didn't have these specialized training. So the Mayo Clinic opens. And it becomes a place where doctors come for specialized training. And so that's the origin of this whole thing. And then it grows and grows and becomes. Now, generally, there's a number of hospitals here. But in general called the Mayo Clinic. But the roots of it are in this Dr. Mayo and mother Alfred. And there's a great statue in front of the main building here, the Gonda building. And it shows a Mother Alfred. And she's like this. And Mayo is in front of her, like, okay, here's what we're going to do. So it was a Catholic nun that was largely responsible for the building of the clinic.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Interesting.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah, it's a great story.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Let me ask you a question that's very similar to how we started our first conversation an hour ago, which you said something to me to the effect of, oh, you've always been able to talk to people with different ideologies, political beliefs, et cetera, et cetera. You're obviously quite good at that yourself. Did that just appear in you one day? Were you always like that? Was that something you were taught or where did that come from?
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Bishop Robert Barron
I'm not entirely sure. I always admire people that did that. So we mentioned Buckley last time. I remember as a young kid, not knowing what he was saying. But I loved watching William F. Buckley, firing line, Sunday afternoons. Buckley in this very erudite, aristocratic way, interviewing people. But Buckley interviewed everybody, ideological allies and opponents. He had everybody on his show. And I just admired that. You know, another one, I must say, when I was a kid, Phil Donahue. So Phil Donahue, he was the father of that kind of show. And Donahue, to his credit, had a whole range of people on. I mean, Donahue would have been a strong liberal Democrat. I remember a famous interview with Milton Friedman, the Economist. It's really entertaining. Cause he and Donahue were really getting into it, you know. But John Wayne would be on then. He'd have, you know, Jane Fonda or something.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Right. That was the magic. Every day it was something crazy that had nothing to do with the day before in some sense.
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Bishop Robert Barron
And so I always admired that. And I'd say maybe a second thing would be my training as a Catholic priest and theologian. My hero, St. Thomas Aquinas. You read his writings from the 13th century. He's dialoguing with everybody. So he's citing ancient philosophers like Aristotle and Plato and Cicero. He's citing Muslim scholars like Avicenna and Avicebron. He's citing the great Jewish theologian Moses Maimonides, whom he always calls Rabbi Moses. He's always very respectful toward him. So he was a model of this sort of wide ranging, inclusive conversation. I think I learned that. And I think that's the Catholic theology at its best, has that quality too, of listening to a wide range of voices, Maybe all those things influenced me.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So when you watch the sort of cultural craziness that we're going through at the moment, or you watch how the media responds to the issues of the day, or the lies that are permeated throughout the system, or all of those things. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's an affront in a way to that ethos, but also the religious component that you're talking about.
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Bishop Robert Barron
I hate the tribalism of today. We talked about it earlier. I hate the tribalism of today. And it's repugnant to what Buckley was for or what the great hero of mine, G.K. chesterton, could have an intense debate with an ideological opponent and then go to the pub afterwards. Buckley could be deeply connected personally to people that he deeply disagreed with. We're losing that and it bugs me. And part of it is the way the media set up today, the tribalism in our news programs. Even we mentioned Johnny Carson. Watch. Johnny Carson's very instructive. Thirty some years, he is the king of late night. And he would engage in political humor, but it was like a light jab to each side. A little joke about Jimmy Carter, a little joke about Ronald Reagan. But there's no way Johnny Carson was willing to alienate half the country. He knew he was trying to entertain the whole country and it brought the country together. It was a show that everybody liked to watch because it was entertaining. It was political in a sense, but not divisively. Gosh, we've lost that. I hate that about the current situation.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Do you look at somebody like Johnny Carson, let's say, who's so culturally important for the time that he was around and think that in some way he's doing something deeply spiritual by doing that?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Quite right, yes. God is a unifying force. That's one way to think about God. God wants to bring things together. I think of the Bernini Colonnade at St. Peter's right. That reaches out like two great arms. And that's the idea is the church is trying to gather in the world. And so, yeah, what's a unifying force and what's one of the means to that is humor. Right, Humor that. So Barry Goldwater and Lyndon Johnson could find the same joke funny and we could bring them together. That's a lost art. If our humor becomes so tainted by our political convictions, it's not gonna serve that purpose. It's gonna become divisive. I mean, you can see it. It's happened in our country and it's sad.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Well, that's why it's interesting to me that you have a respect and an admiration for a guy like Bill Maher, who's obviously, he's quite literally the most outspoken or well known atheist in the country. You obviously have different. That's an existential, let's say, difference that you have. And then you also have political disagreements. And yet we spent quite some time talking about how you admire him. And that to me is the higher aim around all of this, what we're all doing.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah. And you can have a good argument. See, I'm with Stanley Hauerwas. He's a famous Methodist theologian. I read him a lot when I was going through school. And he said, the lost art is how to have a public argument about religion. That's a very good point. Private argument, okay. Or you can say in public, I don't talk about religion. Those are two options. But the cool option is, no, I'm going to have a public argument about religion. In other words, the two options are not bland toleration on the one hand or violence on the other. There is a very healthy middle ground, which is called having an argument at the close of which we remain friends, at the close of which we can have a drink together, et cetera. That's a lost art. And part of the problem with wokeism is it's exacerbating the problem, not solving it right. It's making us more rancorous. And religion, it becomes a divisive element. Hello, I'm Bruce Fabrizio, inventor of Simple Green. As you get ready for spring cleaning, trust Simple Green to get the job done right. Simple Green's concentrated cleaning power handles tough messes in every room of the house. And Simple Green is EPA safer choice certified, so it's recognized for safer use around people, pets and waterways. I am so certain you'll love Simple Green. If you're not 100% satisfied, I'll refund your money. Visit us@simplegreen.com
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Jan from Toyota
hey, campers, it's Jan from Toyota. This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota and the fun starts now. We're kicking things off by kicking up. Jump in, campers. We're going off roading in a 4Runner. Next, we're heading to the hot springs in Arav 4. And finally, park your tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows. There's summer start here.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Dealer inventory may vary so your participating Toyota dealer for details. Event ends June 1st. Toyota, let's go places. What do you think? The sort of best version of religion in America. When do you think that was like? I remember growing up in the 80s. I grew up in a largely Jewish community, but I was maybe 50% Jewish. That's a lot proportionately. But we had all sorts of people that were, you know, Greeks and Italians and all sorts of people. But I remember at our school there was A Christmas tree, there was a menorah. People saw both, respected both went about their day. It was not. It wasn't burning as hot. This thing that we're all confronted with right now. When do you think we sort of peaked with the best version of it to sort of where we're at right now?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Probably when I was a kid, I think of, you know, so I'm growing up in the 60s, as a little kid, into the 70s, and I think there was a sanity about it. Part of the difference is, in those days, 97% of our country would have identified with a religion. 97% of the country. Now, what's like 26, 27, maybe 30% would identify with no religion. Something's falling apart in the social fabric, you know, because I would say from within religion itself, if it's rightly construed, comes this deep respect for other people. That's not something opposed to your religion. It's coming from the heart of it. From the heart of my faith as a Catholic is respect for every human being. Of course, I'm not doing that despite my Catholicism. I'm doing that because of my Catholicism. If you're falling away from religion, we're losing one of the cohesive elements of our society.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So would you say that that now, in some sense, is why at least one of our political parties has sort of run so amok that there doesn't seem to be any unifying principle where there maybe was at least something connected to religion?
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Bishop Robert Barron
No, absolutely. Look, our last conversation, I mentioned how my dad Chicago Catholic. That meant you're a Democrat. My family had connections to Chicago politics going back into, like, the 20s, 30s, 40s. My dad, I mean, Richard J. Daly, Mayor of Chicago, that was it. If you said to my father, you know, part of being a Democrat means you should be really suspicious of religion. What are you talking about, religion? Mayor Daley of Chicago went to Mass every morning before he went to City Hall. He went to Mass every morning.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
What would he have thought about turning boys into girls or girls into boys?
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Bishop Robert Barron
I think he would have been against it. No. So the loss of religion from that part of the conversation has been terrible. And yes, we do lose a cohesiveness and a sort of moral ballast when that happens.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So how do you, as a man of faith and someone that publicly is representing Catholicism, how do you welcome as many people and then also not lose the boundaries altogether?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah, because it's not an either or, it's a both. And I think the more you have your boundary as a Catholic, the More, you're open to conversation and argument. See, there's a. Again, we distort it because. All right, to find peace, you better not hang on to your beliefs that strongly, and you better soften those boundaries. No, no, no, no, no. Part of what it means to be a Catholic is that I believe everyone's made in God's image and likeness, that Jesus said, love everyone, including your enemies, even people who are trying to kill you. You should love them. You know, so from the heart of my Catholicism comes a commitment to nonviolence, to peace, to conversation, because political conversation, that's a public face of what we're talking about. So in your private life, you have, you know, love for a variety of people. Even your enemies now do that publicly. It looks like a polity in which that sort of conversation can happen. So I say that precisely as a Catholic, which is why I'm very much at home in the American political system, which at its best is the cultivation of that public space that's born of religion. It's not contrary to religion.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So when you've seen over the last couple weeks, there's been a public spat between the Pope and the President. Now they're sort of publicly at each other in some sense, you know, a truth social message here, and then the Pope, you know, quote from the Pope here. But they're not talking to each other. I know that seems to be sort of the disconnect.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah. And in a way, I wish they were. You know, I took the president to task and I thought one of his ex posts about the Pope, I thought was very disrespectful, and he was treating the Pope as though the Pope were just one more, you know, hack politician among many. And then I did another post where I argued that the two of them really are operating in qualitatively different spheres. So the President has this responsibility to execute public policy and so on. The Pope's job is a different one, is to articulate the moral vision, the spiritual vision. And I think if we can see the two of them working in harmony. And then I furthermore suggest that the leading Catholics in the Trump administration. So think of Vance and Rubio, Brian Burch, who's the ambassador, sit down with your Vatican counterparts and have a real conversation about this. And don't leave it at the level of X feeds going back and forth. So I think that would be more useful if the Catholics in the Trump administration could try to explain to the Vatican people, look, here's why we're doing what we're doing here's. Why we think it's congruent with, you know, Catholic teaching and let the Vatican people express their point of view. I think that'd be healthier.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Do you know if anyone has taken you up on that idea?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Just some indications, but yeah, yeah, I hope that happens. I like that. Having direct, frank conversation rather than public exchanges.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
You know, what do you make of how religion is sort of entered back into the public consciousness, which obviously I have no doubt that you're for. But much of what's happening to religion now seems to be hyper polarized. So, you know, you can look at sort of all the conversations about Israel and the sort of endless attack on Jews. There's a version of Christianity that seems to be growing online that maybe I think is. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe is slightly incongruent with your version. There seems to just be, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on with Islam and certainly with radical Islamic belief right now. There's just a lot of strangeness in the religious ecosystem at the moment.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah, yeah. And of course, the Internet is contributing to a lot of that stuff. The fact that people are coming back and I'll speak as a Catholic, as we've been watching this for a while. They are indeed. I mean, it's been remarkable across the country. I certainly applaud that. The online stuff, you know, that gets dysfunctional pretty quickly. My job as a Catholic bishop is to keep, you know, bringing forward the Catholic position, which is always based upon Jesus, so we can get too abstract too quickly, bring it back to the Lord Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead. That means someone who was done to death by his enemies, but on his lips are words of forgiveness. The resurrection shows that God's love is more powerful than anything in the world. And so with that confidence, the church has always gone forth to meet the powers of the world, not aggressively, but with a confidence that God's love is greater. Think of Paul from prison declaring the lordship of Jesus, which was a direct in your face to Caesar. Because if you said Jesus Kurios, as Paul did, Jesus is Lord. That was almost a mockery of Kaiser Kurios, which was a watchword. Caesar's the Lord. And Paul from prison is saying, no, no, yes, it was Kurios. I love that. It's sort of the panache of it and the confidence, but it's not one worldly power taking on another. It's an otherworldly message that continues to be announced up and down the ages. And that's my job as an evangelist and as a bishop.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Are you shocked that people find so much conflict in a lot of this? In that. You know, we talked about the City of David earlier, that if you go to Jerusalem and you see that the church or the Holy Sepulcher, which. I had the most wonderful tour, and they let me, you know, I literally was able to hold the key to the church. It's incredible. But that it's steps away from the Western Wall, the holy site in Judaism, obviously, that you can quite literally breathe and walk through history and that it shouldn't be in conflict. It's just obvious to me in such a deep way that these things should not be in conflict and that people can have their beliefs and exist and coexist, and yet it feels like, oh, everyone thinks I have to be right. I have to be right, and I better show you I'm right, and I better really show you that you're wrong.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Right. Well, it's how you would do that. I mean, I have nothing against religious argument. I like religious argument. And I don't think we should settle into this sort of bland indifferentism. Well, you know, you got your belief, I got mine, and, well, who knows? No, let's have a good argument about it now. That means out of love and with respect and non. Violently, and that we love each other afterwards and all of that. But you can do it. I think part of our task is to teach people how to do that, how to have, as Hawerwa said, a debate about religion in public, an argument about it. We can do that. When you mentioned the Holy Land, I remember some years ago, there was someone was filming inside the Holy Sepulchre, and it was like one of the high holy days. And there's always different Christian groups, you know, Armenians and the Catholics. And then this great fist fight breaks out among. And here we are at the site of the crucifixion and the Resurrection, where Christianity is born and the Prince of Peace announced to the world, these Christians are all fighting. Okay, brothers, this is not good.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Well, quite literally, everyone has their own little corner. Basically, the Greek Orthodox have his corner.
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Bishop Robert Barron
He had to do it that way because of past conflicts. But, like, come on, brothers, this is like, a little counterindicated here.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Overall, I would say it's pretty peaceful.
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Bishop Robert Barron
No, Right. And that's the exception, the fist fight. But it just made me smile, like, all right, come on, you know. Yeah, we're undermining ourselves.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So if America was more ordered the way you. Let's say, wish it to be. What would be the accommodations for the people on the outside of that, religiously or in private life or et cetera, et cetera? How do you balance those things?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Well, I do, as the founding fathers did. I mean that religious liberty is fundamental, but even I'm the liberty not to be religious, that we don't coerce people at that level of life, that that's one of the most aggressive things you can do, is to reach into someone's conscience and try to be coercive. So John Paul II said that. That's why he said religious liberty is the first liberty, which is, you know, and of course, our First Amendment. And John Paul II knew that and he echoed that in his own teaching. The first liberty is religious liberty because it's the most fundamental. It's also why I'm convinced of this, that when religious liberty goes, the other ones follow quickly. Because if you can assault that one, the other ones are right, because the
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
other ones are just. They're easy work that's time tested. The other ones are.
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Bishop Robert Barron
And so then that includes someone who's a non believer is to say, I'm not going to reach into your conscience now, I might argue with you, see, so don't go to the other extreme. Well, let's not even talk about it. No, no, let's find a way to talk. And it's the civil civic space of America at its best that provides that. That's why I like it. I like it as an American and as a Catholic.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
I remember the first time we sat down was at my place in la, and I think it was about nine years ago or so. And one of the things you said to me at the beginning was that you felt that the church had focused too much on, I forget the exact phrase used you said issues of the pants or something like that, but basically the sexual issues, do you feel that that's shifted a little bit, that culture has shifted a little bit, that there. Where do you see that now, nine years later?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Well, as we record these words, our new pope, Pope Leo, sort of made a comment very recently about maybe giving a certain primacy to issues of justice and so on. You know, I think the Catholic vision is a very inclusive one, that it's looking at the wide range of issues, the grand public geopolitical issues, as well as the personal ones dealing with sexuality and so on. It's all the above. It's both. And you know what we tend to do, we tend to prioritize moral issues that involve a direct attack on human life, which is why we feel so strongly about abortion, euthanasia, too, capital punishment, too, that whenever there's a direct attack on human life, we prioritize that as a moral issue. So that's how we tend to think those issues through. But if you look at the Catholic Church's, the bishop's formal teaching on political matters, we're pretty good at the whole range, which is precisely why we don't correspond neatly to either the Democratic or Republican Party. We never have. And that's always an issue every time the election rolls around is, well, who do I vote for if I'm a Catholic? Well, you gotta make a prudential decision, because our commitments cover both parties. They negate both parties. So I think it's the both. And there.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah. So how do you order that? So if you were to look at your hierarchy of importance when an election's coming. So obviously, as you pointed out, abortion's gonna be up there. There's gonna be other social issues that are up there. Taxation's gonna fall in there somewhere. How do you sort of order your level of importance with these issues?
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Bishop Robert Barron
I think I begin with, is there a direct attack on human life? And that has gotta take priority politically. And then I suppose.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Do you feel that that's mostly settled in America now? I mean, it's been kicked back to the States, so that alleviates a little of the pressure as a prime move.
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Bishop Robert Barron
I think that's a good thing. And we were happy with the repeal of RO and thought, look, I never thought in my lifetime that would happen. So that was something we take very positively. And I think it's in a better place politically because it's at the state level. It has not solved it, but, yeah, I would prioritize those things, but there's all kinds of issues in war and peace. There's economic issues, and there's issues of immigration. And the bishops, we're all pastors, so we deal with people very directly. And in some of the bigger cities here in my diocese, too, you've got a lot of immigrants coming in, and it's a richly complicated issue. But, you know, a lot of bishops feel strongly about it because we deal pastorally with people.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Right. So. So where are you on this whole immigration and deportation situation? We should know. We're in Rochester, which I, you know, I flew into the Minneapolis airport. Yeah, obviously here in Minnesota, where, as we speak, it sounds like, quite literally right now, I don't even know. You saw Twitter this morning that there's a big raid going on. And there's obviously been a lot of stuff around the Somali community and all.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I made a statement along with my brother bishops from Minnesota a while ago about it, you know, delineating it along these lines. Country has a right to defend its borders. I mean, so I don't subscribe to open border policy. That's against Catholic teaching. It's very clear in our social teaching country's got a right to defend its borders. Got a right to defend and enforce its immigration laws. Absolutely. And I think there was certainly during the Biden years that we became very open ended about that. And that's not been good for our country. I mean, again, as a pastor, I'm well aware of the fact that human trafficking and all sorts of issues happen along an open border because of an open border. So I affirm all of that. You know, at the same time, whatever enforcement we do must be done humanely. And so the bishops have insisted upon that. More to it. Going after criminals. Yeah. And I think almost all Catholics would agree that's a good way for the government to enforce this matter. Going after all people who are in the country in undocumented status through ICE deportations. I would suggest that's too blunt an instrument. I'd prefer a political solution to that. That's how I would tend to delineate that manner. Now, you get down to the ground and you've got people who have to make practical, prudential judgments. But speaking generally, I would say that's how I would probably delineate it.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah. And in terms of if someone came to you, let's say someone came to you for guidance and they were illegal, do you have a. I suppose you have two duties there, one a religious duty and then one as an American citizen. Balance those two things.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Right. As a pastor, you always want to help people as much as you can. And we inform people in all of our dioceses in Minnesota of their basic rights. So we let all people in the country know what they have a right to. If someone is a serious criminal, I think I would recommend they turn themselves in. You know, I mean, if there really is a criminal situation. But again, I think the general matter should be handled more politically than through ICE interventions.
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah. So let's back up a little bit because we touched on it for a moment and early in our first hour. But let's talk about the inter religious relationships right now. As we talked about earlier, I've never felt any of that conflict between Christians and Jews and any of those things. There's some Weird stuff happening online. You were part of the religious, what was it called? The Religious Liberty Commission. So let's do Christian and Jewish relations first. How would you grade the state of that at the moment?
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Bishop Robert Barron
Well, since Vatican ii, let's say there's been a massive improvement in Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Jewish relations. The document Nostra Aetate Vatu II was kind of groundbreaking, Right. Since then, there have been all kinds of organizations, institutions, study groups, et cetera, that bring Jews and Catholics together. I was briefly part of one under Cardinal Dolan. It just became too hard for me to travel from the West Coast. But I've always enjoyed those conversations. The deep Catholic conviction is that we're all spiritually Semite. It was Pius XI said that. And he's dead right. You can't be a Christian without being Jewish. In one fundamental way, we come up out of Judaism, we're conditioned by Judaism. Jesus is a Jew, Paul is a Jew. Paul announces Jesus as the fulfillment of Israel. So not in opposition to Israel. Paul would never have said, oh, I've become, I've joined a new religion. Paul would never have said that. Paul would have said, I've discovered the fulfillment of my Judaism. I want you to know about it too. You know, So I think since Vatican
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Interviewer (possibly Dave)
ii and certainly wouldn't have tried to convert people by the sword or.
- [30:26]
Bishop Robert Barron
No, no, no, no, no, no. I would have recognized the primacy in our language, primacy of conscience and so on. But I think since Vatican II and Nostra Aetateate, there's been a huge improvement there. And you know, when it comes to Israel, the Catholic position is to recognize the right of Israel to exist and always have deep respect for that. We're opposed to all forms of antisemitism. We've been very clear. Go back now, Paul vi, John Paul ii, Benedict, I mean all of them, Francis, very strong against anti Semitism. We don't hold, as some Christians do, that the state of Israel, the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. So there's that issue which can tend to make the present day Jewish state immune from criticism. But we don't hold to that. We would not say Ezekiel was from a distance seeing the modern state of Israel. So we can raise questions about, we can, we can criticize, you know, Israeli public policy. So I think that's. The Catholic view is.
- [31:25]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yes, I think that would be the Israeli policy too. If you've ever argued about politics with an Israeli.
- [31:31]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah, but there, there are certain Christians that would hold and certain Jews too, that the modern state of Israel is what Isaiah was envisioning. We don't hold to that.
- [31:42]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
And let's do the slightly trickier one, let's say, which is Catholic and Islamic relations.
- [31:48]
Bishop Robert Barron
When I was in Chicago, so under Cardinal George, who's kind of a hero to me, it's sad to me that people are probably forgetting about Cardinal George. He's been gone for about 10 years, but he was a great figure in the American church. And we went every year I went with him to the Iftar dinner, which was held at the conclusion of the Ramadan fast. Right. And it was always a great gathering of Muslims in Chicago. And they typically would have the meal and then they'd read something from the Quran that had to do with Jesus because Jesus is featured in the Quran or Mary, you know. And then one year, I remember I gave a paper at one of those about Averroes and Avicenna, these two medieval Muslim scholars that Thomas Aquinas relied upon. So those were all gestures on his part toward, you know, a peaceful, civil conversation with Islam. Trust me, Cardinal George didn't think Islam is correct theologically. He didn't. He was a convinced Catholic Christian. Sure. But he was equally convinced it was very important that he be there for those gatherings. That would be my take on it.
- [32:53]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah. Is there a difference fundamentally, though, just in terms of the desire to have other people submit? I mean, that in essence, you know, Christians right now, generally speaking, would love to convert people or show people away, etc. Generally are not doing it by violent means or whatever, where there is a different version happening with a certain version of Islam. I mean, even I'm trying to sort of dance around it.
- [33:17]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah. No, I get it.
- [33:17]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
In a politically correct way. Possible.
- [33:19]
Bishop Robert Barron
We're against that. You know, obviously. Now, how do you oppose that? You oppose it through argument. You oppose it through public debate and so on. But, yeah, we're against that. Any form of coercion. John Paul II again said, we propose, we don't impose. Now, God knows we have done some imposing over the centuries. You know, if you look back at Catholic history, but at our best, he's articulating that principle. We propose Christ as Paul did. We don't impose Christ, so we're against the imposition of religion.
- [33:48]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
What do you make of how you've been able to spread the word through the online situation? Because obviously this is a completely different thing that didn't exist.
- [33:57]
Bishop Robert Barron
Right.
- [33:57]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
20 years ago and is going to look very different 20 years from now.
- [34:00]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah.
- [34:01]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So we're at a unique moment.
- [34:02]
Bishop Robert Barron
It's a Grace, I think, you know, I, I started as a professor, so I was a, got a doctorate in theology, started writing books, I was teaching at the seminary, writing learned articles, that sort of thing. And I envision that as the trajectory of my life, that I would probably go to a university and get a chair of theology someplace. That's what I envisioned. And then late 90s, early aughts, this conviction comes upon me that you know, we should use the means of communication we have. And Fulton Sheen did it a long time ago. Then we kind of dropped the ball. Why aren't we doing this? So I just started, I just called this local radio station, Chicago wgn, big radio station. And I just said how much would it cost for me to get on like a sermon program? And they said, well, at 5:15 on Sunday morning we got a 15 minute slot and for $50,000 we can let you have that slot. So I went to my local parish and I told them just that story and they did what you were doing. They laughed and then they gave me the money. And so my first move was to get on the radio. From the radio came a website to house the sermon. Right. I barely knew what a website was. And then it just grew in a way that I think showed the blessing of the Holy Spirit. And then the social media emerged. When I first started it was still radio, TV basically, but then the social media and I thought, all right, all right, this is the moment. If Paul were around, he'd use this, you know, if Fulton Sheen had this, he'd use it Amines 24, 7, 365 to get the message out to young people that would never darken the door of our churches, but they do live in this space. So it was a pure experiment. I started doing movie reviews and I would just start talking about the culture and is there a religious dimension? We'd get a few hundred views in the beginning and I would get on there and engage people. They'd critique me and I would answer them. And that got the audience a bit bigger. And then it just has grown. I do think it's a grace. I think the Lord gave us a means to communicate when we really needed it because the young people were disaffiliating. They're not coming to church, so we can have all the programs we want, they're not going to come, but we can invade their space, you know. And then it just, it happened. Tons of people then began to say, oh yeah, I ran across you. Oh yeah, I found your movie. Oh, I watched this and then we did this series, Catholicism, that was based on Kenneth Clark. He did that great Civilization series. Right. When I was a kid, I thought, okay, something like that for Catholicism. I'd go around the world and I'd show the beauty of Catholicism. I would talk about it. So we did that. That was kind of a breakthrough. PBS picked that up. And then it kind of put me on the map, you know.
- [36:53]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Do you think it matters if people get their religion in different ways? In that, if you look at overall, let's say, church or synagogue attendance, generally, it's down at the moment. And a lot of churches and synagogues are being replaced by mosques all over the Western world. But if they're just. If people are maybe not showing up to congregate the way they used to, but now have the technological means to still get the ideas across, do you think that that's an even break?
- [37:19]
Bishop Robert Barron
No, it's a seed. I mean, I've always seen this work as it's sowing of seeds and they're planted. The idea, now I speak as a Catholic bishop, is to get them to Mass and to the Eucharist and to the community. That's the goal. Right. And it does happen. People. They'll start with a video I watched, and it kind of intrigued me. And it led me here and then there and then here and there, and then finally I'm joining the church. That's when I'm happy. When people tell me that, they say, because of you, I'm now becoming a Catholic. Good. That's what I want. But it's a propa dudic, you know, it's a preposterous preparatory move that we're doing. And most needed.
- [37:57]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
We talked a little bit about how we were both at Charlie Kirk's memorial.
- [38:00]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
I have never in my life. There are about 100,000 people there in that stadium. I have never felt anything like that. I don't know that I ever will feel anything like that. You've obviously spoken and attended all sorts of things with thousands of deeply spiritual people. Had you ever experienced anything like that?
- [38:18]
Bishop Robert Barron
It was unique. Yeah. And I didn't know what to expect. I was invited to come, and I didn't speak yet. I was happy. I didn't speak because I just was able to attend, you know, But I had a very good seat right near the front. And, you know, I know what a Catholic funeral Mass looks like. And will this be like a religious service or is this a political rally or what is this?
- [38:38]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
And everyone was trying to figure that out, which I think Led to a lot of what the feeling was in the room because nobody knew what it was exactly.
- [38:44]
Bishop Robert Barron
And it turned out to be, I would say, about 90% religion and 10% politics.
- [38:49]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
And.
- [38:49]
Bishop Robert Barron
And what I found most moving was the number of politicians that came out and talked about Jesus and talked about their faith and talked about how Charlie influenced them to read the Bible more. So it was very much a religious celebration and there was such a spirit in the room. What saddens me, and we've talked about now a lot, is what's happened since then and with the death of Charlie, that what was there in that room that day, physically, all these people together as splintered to some degree. But the day itself was extraordinary. And it was Charlie as a spiritual sort of figure. No, it took me by surprise. It's not what I expected at all. And it was also longer. I was thinking, okay, it'll be a couple hours, you know.
- [39:33]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Oh, it was.
- [39:34]
Bishop Robert Barron
We got there. I got there about nine and left at five. It was like an eight hour event. Now it didn't. It wasn't burdensome at all. It didn't seem long to me. I enjoyed it very much. But it was the row of politicians coming out and talking about their faith that had an impact on me.
- [39:50]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah. Now that Charlie's gone and we've seen some of this fighting on the right and a certain amount. A certain amount is politics and a certain amount is religion. How do you think we arbitrage those two? How do we fix that?
- [40:08]
Bishop Robert Barron
I would go back to gospel basics and go back to American basics. Those two things coming together. I think that's what Charlie represented and he saw what I said earlier and I believe it. The more authentically Christian you are, the more authentically American you can be, and vice versa. Because those two things came up out of the same soil in a way. And it's. When you're trying to be one or the other, maybe that trouble ensues. The more committed you are to Christianity, the more you're committed to the great American values and our civic conversation and vice versa. The more you're committed to that, the more congruent it is with religion. That's what he embodied, I think. And then his again, the dying with the microphone in his hand. Not a gun or a sword. He died with an instrument of communication in his hand. Talk to each other. Talk to each other.
- [40:59]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
When you see so many people go off into conspiratorial elements about either Charlie or about Trump or about just any of the litany of conspiracies that are existing right now. I do see a connection between the type of mind that goes to that line of thinking and somebody who's disconnected from something beyond them in that they're just sort of. If you just exist in wake up. Here's the news. Tomorrow's the news, the next day's the news the next day that eventually there will be a total disconnect with reality. So it's. Do you see that? The sort of conspiratorial mind versus the believing mind, if that's a fair way to frame it.
- [41:37]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah, because it's search for meaning.
- [41:39]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Right.
- [41:39]
Bishop Robert Barron
And so if you can't find it where you should find it, you'll invent it. And so conspiracy theories are invented patterns of meaning. If you're grounded in proper patterns of meaning, and I name two of them, authentic Christianity and authentic Americanism are both patterns of meaning. If you bracket those, you'll start finding them or inventing them where they don't exist, but also that falling apart. See, the devil has two names in the Bible, Satanas means the accuser, and that's very much alive. The other is diabolos. Diabolaim means to scatter in Greek. So whenever you see scattering and accusing, that's the dark power, and it's all over the place. The Internet is the devil's playground because both those things happen on the Internet like crazy. Accusation. Accusation and mobs conform, not just overnight. They can form like in five minutes. And then they have the scattering quality. What gathers people certain fundamental values and then the ability to talk to each other. That's Charlie Kirk. That's a unifying power. That's what's in danger.
- [42:52]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
We've talked obviously a little bit about how you've grown your channel in the age of the Internet. We're about to be on. We're on the precipice of everything changing in a way that I think will be utterly unimaginable via AI and robotics. Are you concerned that that will now enter, just bring us to a new frontier of where religion will just be hit in 20 different ways. Do you think there will be a way to integrate those two things?
- [43:17]
Bishop Robert Barron
I don't know. I mean, everyone asks about AI today, and I'm always a little bit at sea when it comes to that. I get the economic danger, I get the danger to human dignity if AI starts taking over all aspects of life. I hate the fact they're demonstrating this now, that more and more preachers and priests are using AI to create sermons. I hate that they're doing our thinking for us. What's thinking all about? It's about the discovery of patterns of meaning and learning how to navigate through them and to arrange them in a hierarchy. That's what healthy thinking is about. If you outsource that to AI then you become a cipher yourself. So that's the greatest spiritual danger, psychological danger. In some ways I think, oh, thank God I'm the age I am and I'm not all that conditioned by it. I suppose we all use it every time. A Google search is kind of an AI thing, We all use it. But it does concern me, the spirit, spiritual compromise involved in it.
- [44:18]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah. I just think if people think that, you know, we had the printing press one day and that changed the world, and then the Internet changed the world, we're on the verge of something that is going to be that amplified by, I don't know, in a bad way
- [44:32]
Bishop Robert Barron
or a way we can't entirely see at this point.
- [44:34]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah, well, I suppose we'll have to be the deciders.
- [44:38]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah. No, it does concern me, but I. I kind of turn away from AI because I don't feel I know enough about it. But it does frighten me kind of from the outside.
- [44:48]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
What are you most. I mean, I think I have a sense of the answer to this, but what are you most concerned about right now? I mean, I think my guess is your answer would be something about the loss of religion, but can you give me a sort of more granular version of that?
- [45:00]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, Wokeism, generally speaking, I'm a great opponent of Wokeism because in all its different incarnations, the divisiveness of it and the binary quality of wokeism, of oppressor and oppressed, the bracketing of objective value. There's the influence of Nietzsche. I think Nietzsche has a lot of disciples in the 20th century, including Michel Foucault, who maybe is the biggest influence on Wokeism. I think where everything's seen in terms of power relationships, any claim to truth is just an aggressive move. The deep suspicion. It was Paul Ricoeur that identified. He called the masters of suspicion that lie behind so much of modern consciousness. They were Nietzsche and they were Freud and Marx, these three figures that said, well, I know it looks like this, but what's really going on underneath is Nietzsche, it's power. Marx, it's economic exploitation. Freud, it's sexual, you know, whatever. But the danger with that is it divides us. It turns the world usually into some kind of oppressor, oppressed relationship. It brackets objective value. It sort of undermines the claim to. No, that's really true and good and beautiful. Oh, no, no, no, it's something else. You know, that instinct which is basic to wokeism is a very serious spiritual problem. And then it'll manifest itself ultimately in hostility toward religion. Because, see, religion represents the opposite claim. It speaks for the objectivity of the good, the true and the beautiful, grounded in the supreme good, true and beautiful, which is God. And that's why I think it's very clear wokeism is constantly opposed to religion. Wokeism is always antipathetic toward religion.
- [46:44]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So what do you make of the clergy, be it Catholic, Jewish, whatever, that have embraced wokeism and ushered it into these institutions? Because we see a lot of it.
- [46:53]
Bishop Robert Barron
It's a giant mistake and it's born of, of a well intentioned kind of illusion, namely. Oh, wokeism just means I'm concerned about social justice. It does not. And I've been saying that over and over again. I love social justice. I love it. It's great. We're all for it. Martin Luther King was for it. He wasn't woke. You know, John Paul, you're talking about
- [47:14]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
the march to equality, right? When you say social justice in a positive sense, you mean a march towards equal rights for all would be equal opportunity.
- [47:23]
Bishop Robert Barron
You know, I judge you not by the color of your skin, but by the content of your character. That's what I'm for. That's the best of America. It's the best of Christianity. King is a good example because King effortlessly wove them together. Right? So I have a dream speech, effortlessly biblical to America. Biblical reference to an American hymn, Abraham Lincoln to Isaiah. You know, that's the best of America. When you can do that effortlessly. That's fallen apart to a degree. But I would say wokeism is what concerns me the most. And it's a spiritual sickness. And you know, wokeism is the popularization of European critical theory. And critical theory is a very bad acid and it tore away at some of the foundations of European society and it's happening in our society. That's what worries me both as an American and as a Catholic bishop.
- [48:19]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So when you've seen other clergy bring this into the fold, I assume you warn them privately or you have some discussions about it. I mean, generally, do you feel like they think, okay, we have to let a certain amount of this in because we quite literally need people showing up and this is attractive to a certain set of people. So there's pressures, there's quite, you know, there's pressures related to I have to keep the doors open. And offer the thing of the day versus fight all those bad ideas.
- [48:44]
Bishop Robert Barron
Right. But we should stand athwart it and we should not be seduced by it. And that's why I've spoken about it, written about it, certainly would urge fellow clergy, but I get it, they're drawn in by the seductive claim that, oh, no, this is just to care for the poor and care for more justice. But it's not.
- [49:00]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
But do you think there's also a numbers game related to that, that people have to keep the doors open and if there's new ideas that seem popular, that even clergy wouldn't be of any denomination wouldn't be impervious to that?
- [49:10]
Bishop Robert Barron
Maybe, yeah. But they should be attentive to the heart of the matter. And we don't play the numbers game that way. We play the Jesus game. We want to stay with Jesus and the great moral spiritual system that has emerged out of him. That's what we're for. And if the numbers fall off because we're for that, well, then so be it. Right? We shouldn't worry about that.
- [49:33]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
I want to get to something that we almost got to in the first hour, but sort of the trajectory of Donald Trump as a spiritual figure, I think, is extremely interesting because most people, I think, would say, ah, you know, he pretty much was a New York Democrat, sort of moderate liberal for most of his life. You know, likely had sex out of marriage and all sorts of things that wouldn't be thought of as traditionally, you know, let's say Christian conservative, at least. Then we have this trajectory over the last 10 years, and he goes through all the trials and tribulations, especially assassination attempts, trying to take away his businesses, get him all the impeachments, everything else. Now, it seems to me he does talk about his role as he seems to understand something about his role in life that is now connected to something beyond him. Do you think that's a fair assessment?
- [50:30]
Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah. I don't know him personally very well, although I've met him now a couple times in connection with this religious Liberty Commission. When I met him the first time, I said to him, Mr. President, religious people in this country are very grateful to you for this commission. And I've said publicly, too, that he's done more about that issue than any president in my lifetime. So there's those concrete sort of policy moves he's made, and I respect that very much. And, you know, look, from pro life perspective, as I said, I never dreamed in my lifetime Roe v. Wade would be overturned. It was overturned because of Trump appointments to the Supreme Court. So I mean all of that I think is tremendous. It's a plus. I think what you're getting at is the post butler experience, right? And now as we record these words, there's the third attempt to assassinate him just happened. I think it did change him and I'm getting that not just my own impression, but those who know him a lot better than I do have witnessed to that that he's more aware of a kind of religious mission that should be informing his is work. So I yeah, I've sensed that in them. I think when people turn to telehealth for weight loss, they're looking for real support. That's why more people are choosing orderlymeds.com orderly meds connects you with real doctors and access to proven GLP1 medications like semaglutide and tirzeptotide. No guessing, just a more supportive experience. And all shipped directly to your door in discreet packaging. Do your research, ask questions, then visit orderlymeds.com podcast for an exclusive offer. That's orderlymeds.com podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice eligibility required. C site for details
- [52:01]
Jan from Toyota
hey campers, it's Jan from Toyota. This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota and the fun starts now. We're kicking things off by kicking up mud. Jump in campers. We're going off roading in a 4Runner. Next we're heading to the hot springs in a RAV4 and finally park your tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows.
- [52:23]
Bishop Robert Barron
The summer start here dealer invatore Mayberry.
- [52:26]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
So you're participating. Toyota dealer for details. Event ends June 1st. Toyota let's Go Places. Does that. Even if he himself is not a believer, I don't know what he is. I don't want to put words in his mouth. But even if he is not a believer in the most strict sense, let's say if he is able to take that upon him, you know, I saw the interview with Norah o' Donnell right after this last assassination attempt, and he said something to the effect of, well, you know, if I wasn't doing anything good, then this wouldn't happen. That he seems to understand what his role now is as a human being in this moment. Do you feel that would be a complete life, even if his religious beliefs never got to where say you would want them to be?
- [53:06]
Bishop Robert Barron
No, not complete, but it's in the think of the temple in Jerusalem. You have the holy of holies and you've got these outer courts, you know, the courts of the gentiles, so on. Then is he getting closer to a religious perspective? Yeah, probably, but no, I wouldn't be satisfied that that's where he should end up. But you know, I think he's sincere, I do. In his keener sense of the importance of the spiritual even. What was that thing recently where he said about getting to heaven? I don't know if I'll ever get to heaven.
- [53:37]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Well, he said that at Charlie's memorial, if you remember. He said something to that effect. And then he said something like. He said something like, Charlie was always looking up there. I don't look up there as much. Or something like that. Which I thought was kind of fascinating to be there and do that because
- [53:51]
Bishop Robert Barron
as you pointed out, humble in a way.
- [53:52]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Right. Well, because he had all of these politicians doing what you said, which was talking about religion. He gets up there, it's a little harder for him to do that. And his was a little more political, but then said something very true or very self effacing.
- [54:06]
Bishop Robert Barron
Self effacing?
- [54:07]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Yeah.
- [54:07]
Bishop Robert Barron
And humble. Yeah, it could be. But I'm reluctant to say any more because I just don't know. I don't know his inner life or his mind or heart. Some people that I've met, I think do know him better and they've witnessed to that, so I'll take that seriously. But I think the public actions, especially this commission, which has done good work, I think that's a very positive thing he's done. And the overturning of Roe v. Wade, very important.
- [54:32]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Let me ask you one other thing, which is one of the things that I find lately in my life is that people ask me how I'm doing, what's going on, or whatever. I always say what goes on in the four walls of my house is great. My life is good. I have a great relationship, I have great kids, my colleagues are good, my work is good. I feel satisfied. I'm doing interesting things like having these conversations. And then I always feel that there's this piece where I have to say something like, but the world is crazy and everyone knows everything is nuts and politics is wacky or something that in some sense, if you were just to say, boy, things are pretty good and I'm doing the best I can and I'm grinding along and I feel fulfilled. But in some sense that almost feels like an incomplete answer in a way to what people might want.
- [55:13]
Bishop Robert Barron
Right.
- [55:14]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
What do you think that is? It's something that I've been kicking around a lot lately?
- [55:18]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, it's probably just. It's just awakening in you that sense of the public responsibility. I mean, so we all have our personal lives, and we're conducting those as well as we can. They should be informed by values, moral and spiritual, and that's good. And you're witnessing to that, like, okay, I've got this together, but I've also got a public responsibility. I'm also part of this body politic. And, you know, you and I are both very interested in political things and cultural matters. And so, yeah, I've got to be concerned about that, too, you know, keeping things in right order, I suppose. But, yeah, I've got that sense of a certain responsibility to the public order. And now through voting and all that. Sure. But also through some of the work I do and commenting and writing and speaking.
- [56:05]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
How heavy does that weigh on you? I'm curious, because you and I, I do think, have a very similar outlook on the world. And I find, as I said, the things that I can control in my life, to the extent that I can control them, are pretty good. Then there's all the other issues, the big political issues and all that stuff that you can't really control. I do find if I don't have a little discipline with my mind, I can get lost in all of that and then forget about all of the good stuff there. That, I would say is, in some sense, for me, it's like my biggest existential challenge. How do I balance that? I am concerned about the world versus the immediacy of my life.
- [56:44]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, yeah, I think for me, the fact that I'm bishop of the Diocese of Winona, Rochester, which is southern Minnesota, and. And a lot of my. Most of my life, this is the exception. This sort of thing, most of my life is getting in my car and going to a parish and doing a confirmation, going to the chancery, having meetings about the finance council and going to the personnel meeting and assigning priests. And that's most of my life. That's sort of. It's my family, if you want. That's my more domestic responsibility as bishop. And then there's this, which I do think God has allowed me to have. He wants me to have this wider audience, but probably the diocese keeps me balanced or keeps me, you know, grounded. I've said a few times, I've had conversations with people, and I'll say, would it be better, you think, if I just did this sort of work, you know? And the answer I always get is no, no, no, no, no. It's really, really good that, you know, you've got this. You're grounded in the diocese, you're bishop of this local church. And I think that's really right, right, right.
- [57:43]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
It gives you a little both, basically. So there's a push and pull in your personal life and in your public life. I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy these conversations and I certainly hope, and I will challenge you that it will not be another six years or whatever it's been.
- [57:58]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, I'll come to Miami next winter when the four feet of snow descend upon Minneapolis.
- [58:03]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
We can do. Why don't we do twice a year? I'll come to Minneapolis and Rochester for the winters. You'll do the summer. You'll do your winters.
- [58:12]
Bishop Robert Barron
Beautiful.
- [58:13]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
You're on in Miami.
- [58:14]
Bishop Robert Barron
It's a pleasure, Dave. God bless you.
- [58:15]
Interviewer (possibly Dave)
Thank you.
- [58:15]
Bishop Robert Barron
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Bishop Robert Barron
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