Podcast Summary: The Russell Brunson Show
Episode: Confusing Activity With Achievement
Date: July 12, 2017
Host: Russell Brunson | YAP Media
Episode Overview
In this episode, Russell Brunson explores a nuanced business principle: the distinction and strategic overlap between activity and achievement. He shares personal stories from inside Clickfunnels, powerful marketing lessons, and wisdom from giants like Dan Kennedy and Henry Ford. The central theme is leveraging "activity" within your customer or onboarding journey to drive engagement and retention—creating strategic "micro wins" that fuel a user's progress toward major goals.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Clickfunnels Kitchen & Setting the Stage
- Russell records for the first time in the company's newly built kitchen, expressing excitement yet irony that it’s never been used for filming until now.
- The kitchen was intended as a recurring backdrop for product demos, streamlining video production needs.
[00:20]
2. Lessons from UI/UX Design and Customer Feedback
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Russell recounts a friction point with a talented UI/UX designer who prioritized customer interviews to shape product direction.
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Initial excitement fades as Russell finds the designer resistant to founder-driven vision, applying a “customer survey” lens even when leadership directives are clear.
"I'm not a survey. And we always kind of going back and forth."
—Russell Brunson [02:14] -
Russell references Henry Ford’s famous concept: If Ford had asked people what they wanted, they’d have said “a faster horse.”
"Our customers don't always know the vision where we're going...That's why we're creating stuff. A lot of times we're visionaries."
—Russell Brunson [03:00]
3. The Onboarding Challenge & Churn Reduction
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Clickfunnels has a large influx of new users daily (800–1,000), but experiences rapid drop-off in the first month.
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Focus is shifting internally toward optimizing onboarding for increased retention, inspired by similar strategies at companies like Freelancer.com.
"There's a big drop off...so we're trying to figure out that process. How do we capture people and keep them in?"
[04:22] -
Discussion on simplifying the sign-up process and making the product easier to use.
"Within the next 60 days, lots of new stuff will be coming live that's just to simplify the process."
[05:10]
4. Activity vs. Achievement: The Core Debate
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Russell wanted onboarding "gamification" (e.g., free T-shirts, badges, prizes for milestones) to motivate users. The UI/UX designer questioned its value:
"How does gamifying the process help people get the end result?...This is just like keeping them busy in the middle."
—UI/UX Designer (as quoted by Russell) [06:05] -
Todd (Clickfunnels co-founder) raises this in conversation, triggering Russell to recall and search for a Dan Kennedy quote.
5. The Dan Kennedy Principle: "Confusing Activity with Achievement"
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The pivotal quote:
"Dan Kennedy said, you have to get your customers to confuse activity with achievement."
—Russell Brunson [07:34] -
Misunderstandings arise: The designer thought busy-work distracts from real results, Russell contends that micro-activities (when well-structured) build the feeling of accomplishment and drive retention.
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Customer data validates this: The most engaged customers (those that set up custom domains, log in multiple times weekly) are the ones who stay.
6. Micro Wins and Retention by Design
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Analogy: The journey is like "eating a whole cow"—the overwhelming scope causes dropout unless broken into digestible wins.
"If you're giving your customer, here's the goal, you gotta eat a cow...they're going to leave...You have to confuse achievement with activity."
—Russell Brunson [10:01] -
Gamification and micro achievements (e.g., watching a video, building your first funnel, earning a T-shirt) create momentum and drive users to persevere toward big goals.
"You have to go and create activities that get people to feel small wins, small achievements, so that will drive them through this chasm, through this gap to get to the big goal, the big achievement you actually want them to have."
—Russell Brunson [12:08]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Visionary Leadership vs. Customer-Led Design
"You have to also understand that our customers don't always know the vision where we're going. That's why we're creating stuff."
[03:00] -
On Retention and Onboarding:
"People that stick are people that have a custom domain, they log in at least two and a half times per week...logging in and using it are the keys."
[08:44] -
The "Confuse Activity with Achievement" Principle:
"The activity is what keeps them engaged...micro achievements will get them to the big achievement at the end."
[10:42] -
Actionable Takeaway:
"Go back through your programs, your products, your services, your members area and figure out how you can weave those things in. Because as you get people's little wins along the way, it'll get them the momentum they need to get the big wins."
[13:18]
Segment Timestamps
- 00:20 – Recording in the Clickfunnels kitchen, behind-the-scenes context
- 02:14 – Tension between founder direction and customer-driven design
- 03:00 – On the limits of customer feedback (citing Henry Ford)
- 04:22 – Onboarding drop-off challenge and traffic numbers
- 05:10 – Announcing incoming product simplification
- 06:05 – The designer’s skepticism about gamification
- 07:34 – Dan Kennedy’s quote introduced
- 08:44 – Data: engagement metrics and customer stickiness
- 10:01 – The cow analogy: illustrating overwhelming end goals
- 10:42 – The power of micro wins and gamified onboarding
- 12:08 – Summarizing the strategy for all creators
- 13:18 – Concrete challenge to listeners: implement micro achievements
Closing Thoughts
With his trademark mix of storytelling and practical wisdom, Russell makes a compelling business case for engineering user experiences that turn activities into meaningful engagement. The episode not only unpacks psychological levers for retention, but lays down a universal challenge for creators: design journeys full of rewarding milestones if you ever want your users to reach the summit.