← The Russell Brunson Show
The Russell Brunson Show
From Cigars to Continuity: Simon Devlin’s Secrets to Building Customer Loyalty
00:57:35
Loading summary
Transcript138 lines
- [00:01]
Simon Devlin
This episode is brought to you by US Cellular. Don't sacrifice a great experience for a great deal. Now with US Cellular Prepaid, you'll get a new Samsung Galaxy A15.5G free without the hidden fees you get with other prepaid providers. So you can use U.S. cellular's nationwide 5G coverage without sacrificing anything. Terms apply. Visit us cellular.com for details.
- [00:23]
Tommy John
Great days start with great underwear. So if you're looking for something special, give Tommy John and gift a better day. Everything we make is meticulously crafted from bre breathable stretch fabric for the perfect fit, including our sleepwear for him and her. It feels good to give, but it feels great to give. Tommy John. Find something for everyone and pick up something for yourself. Because at Tommy John, greatness is in our very fabric. Don't miss Tommy John's Cyber Monday sale. Save 40% site wide at tommyjohn.com Spotify. See site for details.
- [00:53]
Russell Brunson
What's up, everyone? This is Russell. Welcome back to the Selling Online Marketing Secrets podcast. We're still in the middle of transition with the names, but I'm excited to be with you guys here today. We are actually at the Prime Move Hoover Mastermind meeting here downtown Boise, Idaho. And before the event started, I was looking at people who were coming to Boise and I was like, I want to do some interviews. And the person I pulled for you guys this time is really fascinating. Someone from Australia. I'll announce his name during the official intro, but what I think you're going to get a lot of benefit from this one is he's got an offline business selling cigars, and he's using continuity and he's using offers and he's using all the things offline. A lot of us Internet nerds do online, but he's doing offline at a really cool level. He's doing Ascension. He's doing like a whole bunch of really cool things. But then secondarily, a lot of you guys who have online businesses, you have online continuity or membership sites. Some of the things you'll get from this conversation are really fascinating on ways you can increase your retention, get your stick rate, get people to not cancel, get people not to message your support desk, which is the greatest thing of all, and a whole bunch of other things. So I really enjoyed this conversation. I'm excited for you guys to jump in to learn about continuity, income and both online and offline, how it's going to change your life. In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over a billion Dollars in my own products and services online. This show is going to show you how to start, grow and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson, and welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I'm excited today to be hanging out with Simon Devlin from Australia, all the way here in Boise, Idaho. Right.
- [02:18]
Simon Devlin
I'm very excited to be here.
- [02:19]
Russell Brunson
I'm glad to have you here too, man. So this is a podcast I'm actually really excited for because I've been watching you now for a couple of years. You came into the Dan Kennedy world right after we bought Dan's company. You came to a Mastermind in Boise, and then at the most recent super conference, you were in Lederhosen on stage. And so I got to kind of know you a little bit through that, but I've also been watching you and your business for a little bit, and so I'm excited to get to know you a lot better and your business and some of the things you're doing that are unique. I think a lot of times when I have people on this podcast, we're solely like Internet marketing nerds, whereas you have a business that's a little bit different, but you're using similar principles and stuff, which I think will be a lot of fun. So to start off, we don't tell people a little bit about your background, your story, and what your business. I know you got a lot of stuff you're doing, but what your core businesses are.
- [03:05]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, So I started my business back in 1997, importing, wholesaling, and distributing cigars. So I have a. Have retail stores in Australia and a private club as well.
- [03:19]
Russell Brunson
Like a cigar club.
- [03:20]
Simon Devlin
A cigar club, yeah. So it's a physical location, you know, where people pay an annual membership fee to be a member. It's a great, great community. And we also distribute cigars for some of the biggest brands in the world. And we do retail online as well. So I have a different separate business, which is I started a couple of years ago to try to do something a little bit different with a. With a different character to sell cigars online. And, yeah, it's been an incredible journey. It was 2010 that I actually first found Dan Kennedy and started learning about Taylor's Kennedy.
- [04:04]
Russell Brunson
What. When did the cigars business start?
- [04:06]
Simon Devlin
Started in 1997.
- [04:08]
Russell Brunson
Okay, so three years. Wait, 13 years. 13 years.
- [04:11]
Simon Devlin
13 years.
- [04:12]
Russell Brunson
Interesting. Okay.
- [04:12]
Simon Devlin
Yeah.
- [04:13]
Russell Brunson
How'd you find Dan initially? What was the.
- [04:15]
Simon Devlin
It was actually a guy that I met. It was actually a basketball, Australian basketball, who actually played for the Australian team. His name Damien and I met him, we had lunch and we had these amazing conversations and we had sort of similar philosophies. And he said, you need to meet a mentor of mine. He lives on the east coast of Australia and you're going to absolutely love him. And his name was Gary Dean Atkins. And so I go to the other side of the country one time, I meet this guy and I'm like, wow, this guy's amazing. He's got similar sort of philosophies. Anyway, he gives me a book which was. Was Psycho Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. One of the greatest, Dan Kenny. And that of course, blew my mind. And.
- [05:03]
Russell Brunson
Oh, you got the co authored version with Dan.
- [05:04]
Simon Devlin
The co authored version with Dan. And then I was like, who's this guy? Dan Kennedy guy? And so then I searched him online and I found the ultimate sales letter. And I read that book and then I was like, oh, wow, I'm gonna.
- [05:18]
Russell Brunson
Sell a lot of cigars.
- [05:19]
Simon Devlin
And I was like, up until that point in time, I thought, hey, I'm a pretty good sales guy. But then that just, that just changed my world, just all the different pieces of it. And then I just started buying everything I could of him. It was GKIC days back then, where it was also piecemeal. And I was buying, you know, CDs and DVDs and just consuming it all. And I saw this bookshelf full of.
- [05:41]
Russell Brunson
Dan Kenny CDs and DVDs. I was the same way.
- [05:44]
Simon Devlin
So the other day I got a young guy working for me and I'm teaching him marketing. I'm giving him a marketing apprenticeship at the moment. And I was like, oh, I need one of the things wasn't the whole. I sent that to him. I'm like, do you have a CD player? And he's like, CD player?
- [05:59]
Russell Brunson
Like an eight track player, right?
- [06:01]
Simon Devlin
So I go online and buy like a DVD player and I buy a stack of blank CDs and I'm like, I'm going to burn it. And then I can't wait this out. I don't know.
- [06:10]
Russell Brunson
That's so awesome. That's what I learned too, though. I bought every course, every manual, every cd, every dv. And that's like you glued to it, you know, by driving CDs or a TV with the DVD watching to learn, you know, back in the day, that's how we all consume stuff. But it was, it was so exciting. Okay, so I'm, I'm Mormon. I've never smoked a cigar in my entire life.
- [06:27]
Simon Devlin
Right?
- [06:27]
Russell Brunson
So. So what Should I know about cigars? That I don't know.
- [06:32]
Simon Devlin
I think the biggest thing is cigars are all about flavor and taste. So people think. And this is. This has been a problem in Australia. And when I actually started the cigar business back in 1997, you couldn't. You couldn't buy cigars anywhere. It wasn't part of the culture, whereas it had been more part of the culture in the United States. People just saw it literally as a big cigarette. Now, I've never smoked cigarettes in my. And never will, but cigars are actually about flavor and taste. You don't actually inhale a cigar. You actually just draw it in your mouth and you blow it out. But I think the true value of cigars and why so many people smoke them and successful people actually smoke them, is people think it's a status symbol, but it's actually because it's the only time that really busy people stop because it actually takes time to enjoy a cigar. Generally, we don't say smoke a cigar, but enjoy a cigar. It's. There is a rhythm to the. To the breathing almost. You know, I often say it's like a form of meditation, you know, and when you can share that with other people, yeah, it's pretty amazing experience.
- [07:47]
Russell Brunson
Does it have, like, nicotine, tobacco, similar stuff like that in it or.
- [07:51]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, it does, but you're not going.
- [07:53]
Russell Brunson
Deep into your lungs.
- [07:54]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. And so. So the thing is about nicotine is what makes it highly addictive in cigarettes is the other chemicals that they add into cigarettes to make the increase of the uptake of the nicotine into the bloodstream. So that was that movie with Russell Crowe, the Insiders was all about, is how they'd worked all that out. So I was thinking about this actually this morning. So I smoke cigars. I love cigars. I would have, on average, a couple of cigars a day, which is. Which is a lot of cigars. Like, most people might have one cigar a week kind of thing. I left home a week and a half ago. I haven't had a cigar.
- [08:37]
Russell Brunson
You're not like.
- [08:37]
Simon Devlin
And going crazy. I hadn't even thought about it, you know, So I really, really enjoy the experience, but I don't feel the need to want to have a cigar. So, yeah, it's interesting. It's a very, very enjoyable pastime.
- [08:53]
Russell Brunson
My only experience with cigars is Mark Ford and Rich Sheffern did a Mastermind event. And Mark Ford, Michael Masterson, AKA Mark Ford, he's got a cigar bar in Florida. And so that was where the event was at. So we all flew out there and There was like 300 Internet marketers jammed in this little tiny room and everyone's smoking and like video and filming and everyone's like influencing. It was just like it was total chaos. But it was, you tell like it was a cool vibe and people were hanging, you know, like when there's not 300 people jammed in a little tiny room, it's probably like a really.
- [09:22]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, the smoking get a bit much there and the eyes can water a little, I imagine. 300 in a room.
- [09:26]
Russell Brunson
Yeah. So my question first question then. So you went for 13 years running a business for Met Dan. How did it. So how did that part of the business change and transform? You went from like running a traditional business to like applying Dan Kennedy style marketing into a cigar business?
- [09:40]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, so I really, it started out as a. Well, I started initially importing, wholesaling and distributing cigars. And I actually had a, had a business partner at the time that I had in the early days and I found that he wasn't, he wasn't my kind of guy and we didn't really know each other. Perhaps our values weren't quite aligned and we kind of split and he took over the wholesale distribution at the time and then I took over the retail side which was in a tiny little cigar shop in a little beautiful little alley called London Court in Perth. And that shop is so small, I always joke that you have to go outside to change your mind. Right. So it's this tiny little shop. And then. So really I started out that in 2000 and 2002 as almost like a one man band and you know, just learning, learning how to have team members, learning how to, you know, make sure that you've got the right cigars and teaching people and those sort of things and that, that progressed. And eventually I put on some more team members and I kind of worked out well, actually I had a problem. So I, first of all, I put on some team members and their sales were nowhere near what my sales were. They were just, I couldn't understand, you know, it's not that hard.
- [11:11]
Russell Brunson
You guys go, yeah.
- [11:12]
Simon Devlin
And I hired people that were passionate about cigars. So I at first I thought, oh, is it technical knowledge? And then it was like, okay, no, it's not, it's not the technical knowledge. So what is it? And then I started observing what it was about my own interaction that was different. And what I realized was I never actually talked about cigars with the customers. First of all, I actually talked about them and I Got to know them, and then eventually we would get round to cigars. Like, there was a different level of engagement. And by that time, we'd kind of made friends, if you like, and, you know, that whole thing, people want to do business with people they know and like. So then I decided, oh, great, that's all I need to do. I need to teach my guys how to build rapport. Right? Like, how to. And so I started to create this idea of an engagement funnel. So rather than a sales funnel, like how to truly engage with the. With customers and clients when they came in. And I taught them this and. But the sales that, I got a bump, but I didn't get to where I definitely thought we should be. So I was a bit sneaky. I actually. There was. It was a tiny little shop, and I would hang out just around the corner from the shop and actually listen to their interactions to see actually. Yeah, to see what was actually happening. And the interesting part was is it just sounded really clunky. Like, it sounded put on. Like the way they were interacting was just, you know, natural. Yeah, it wasn't natural. That's not what they naturally did. And therefore, they weren't getting the benefit out of it. And I was like, okay, so I actually need to hire a different type of person. I actually need to hire someone who most naturally does that. Someone that was more similar to me. And that's where I started developing this idea of who that person was. And eventually it evolved over a number of years where I realized that that person is actually someone we call that has the service gene. So someone that has not only the desire, but the innate need to want to look after people. And that was quite a point where I turbocharged my business, because then I had a system for finding the right people. And then when I found them, I taught them how to fly with their most natural, what they do best. And so my business really started to expand fast because people were having incredible experience. They were getting incredible engagement. It was actually. It started out in that little cigar shop, and on a Friday afternoon, people would come and they would smoke cigars inside the. And you could smoke inside. Back then, they'd smoke cigars inside the little shop and also in the London Court alleyway as well. And they'd bring a bott of wine, and it became this huge thing. Until some Fridays, there'll be 30 or 40 people kind of hanging out there because they were coming for that community and that engagement as well. And so that was where I really worked out that whole experience and engagement Circle. But what I was kind of missing was how do I consistently get them to come back again and again. And it wasn't until 2010, when I discovered Dan Kennedy and magnetic marketing, that the next piece of the puzzle really fell into place. And that was the return path. That was having a system to get people to come back again and again. That whole number one reason why people stop doing business with you is they forget about you. And you constantly sticking up your hand and saying, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here.
- [15:08]
Russell Brunson
Don't forget about me.
- [15:10]
Simon Devlin
Right. And I. And I hadn't. I hadn't actually done that. The experience and engagement, that's the rocket fuel that can turbocharge the return path. But that was the. That was the next step. So then I started thinking about how can I add different pieces to the puzzle? And. And then that eventually evolved into. Into a membership. It actually started with private cigar capes. Putting private cigar keeps in the next evolution of our store.
- [15:39]
Russell Brunson
Is that like a locker?
- [15:40]
Simon Devlin
Yeah.
- [15:40]
Russell Brunson
They put their own stuff in. Yeah.
- [15:42]
Simon Devlin
And I'm like, oh, this is. This is like a little real estate play here. Right. Like a tiny little box. You can charge them an annual fee.
- [15:49]
Russell Brunson
So how that work? How much would you charge people for that?
- [15:51]
Simon Devlin
So look, I think originally, when we originally opened. So that. That Subiaco store we opened in 2000. 2006. Sorry, no, 2003. And I think we were maybe charging like five, six hundred dollars a year for the, for the keep. It was. It was a small amount and it was us dipping our toes into what would people pay, you know, like, I think often as business people and marketers, we always undervalue it. Right. And we're testing, you know, how much people would actually pay for it as well. Then I guess the next evolution was. So that was in 2003. In 2006, the smoking laws were changing. We actually had a. We built a joint venture with a private club in western Australia which is the. Was the oldest private club at the time. And we built a cigar lounge as a joint venture with them called Churchill's. And they had a membership business. You know, they were a private club and the smoking laws were changing and we weren't going to be able to have it there anymore. We'd opened another store in subiaco. So that was in 2003 that I was talking about before. And we worked out we needed another location and there was an opportunity across the road and I thought, okay, maybe we build a private club at the back of the retail store and we make it really, really discreet and, and I, as often ask marketers do, I sold it before I'd made it and sold these memberships. So I sold these founding memberships which were based around the keeps. We had originally 60 odd keeps in there. And you had one of these keeps, you had access to a private lounge behind the retail store which has swipe cards and like non descriptors. You know, it was kind of get smarty and it' how you get through to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and that that became our private club. And so 2010 I had this private club, but we had one level, you know, and I hadn't really worked out. We were underselling it and I hadn't.
- [18:10]
Russell Brunson
It was 500 bucks a year still at that point. Or did shit change now that you had the club?
- [18:14]
Simon Devlin
No, I mean our initial membership was like $550 a year. Right. We hadn't really worked out that whole thing. And then learning for the first time about ascension and ascension equals retention and the different ladders and that sort of thing and then going, oh, okay, so I need to stop making this about the keep about the product and now I need to make this about an offer. All the different things that we actually add into that offer stack and call it a membership rather than just your locker.
- [18:55]
Russell Brunson
What's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. I've got something really cool for you today from my friend Taylor Wells. Taylor spoke at our last Funnel Hacking Live because I wanted him to share a really cool concept about what he calls the revolving pricing method. And today he decided to sponsor the podcast to give you guys more access to this super cool strategy that you are going to love. It's something we've been implementing into our high end coaching program as well. And it is amazing. But to kind of give you some context about this offer he's making for you guys. As you may or may not know, a few years ago JPMorgan Chase did a study and guess what they found? They found that the average small business only has about 28 days of operating expenses in reserve. That's right, less than a month of cash on hands. Now, if you're like me, the idea of your business being one bad month away from disaster is enough to make your stomach drop. Am I right? Especially with how the economy's been lately, it's not the time to be gambling with your finances. So Taylor put together this book called the Revolving Pricing Method. And it's awesome. It helps you turn every client you close into a long term profit machine. We're not talking about one time paydays. We're talking about creating sustainable and real predictable income for the long haul. Now here's where it gets even better. Taylor put together an awesome exclusive deal just for you guys, my Marketing Secrets listeners. And if you go over to wealthyconsultants.com secrets, you can grab the revolving price method book and over $150 worth of bonuses and get this all, it's at 70% off. And I promise you guys, as a customer of this, you are going to love it. So if you're serious about growing your business with real stability, this is the model you need to add into your funnels. So go over to wealthyconsultant.com secrets, grab your 70% off deal and let's start turning your clients into long term revenue again. That's wealthyconsultant.com secrets. Do not miss out. Hey, it's Russell Brunson. And if you're anything like me, you understand that in business, time isn't just money, it's everything. When you're trying to build your dream team, the last thing you want to do is waste time sorting through a mountain of resumes. But what if I told you there's a smarter way? Instead of searching for candidates you can match with them instantly? Thanks to Indeed. Indeed is the hiring platform you absolutely need in your corner. We're Talking about over 350 million visits each month from all around the world. That's a huge pool of potential talent. And here's the best part. Their matching engine connects you with the right candidate in no time. Imagine skipping the busy work and going straight to the people who fit your job description Like a glove. Sounds like a dream, right? And it's not just about saving time. It's about getting results that matter. In fact, 93% of employees say Indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other job sites. And that's pretty incredible. And I want to tell you, I've been through the hiring process myself. There were times it was slow and frustrating and I wish I'd known about Indeed back then. It would have made everything so much easier. But here's where it gets even better. Indeed is constantly learning and improving. With over 140 million qualifications and preferences feeding their matching engine every day. The more you use it, the better it gets. It's like having a personal hiring assistant who's always on top of things, making sure you get the best of the best. So don't wait around. Join the 3.5 million businesses worldwide. They're already using Indeed to find top talent fast. And here's something special just for the listeners of the Marketing Secret show. You can get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com clicks. Just head over to Indeed.com clicks right now and let them know you heard about it on this podcast. Trust me, you're not going to regret it. Terms and conditions may apply. Need to hire, then you need Indeed. I have a question, because.
- [22:01]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, sure.
- [22:02]
Russell Brunson
There's a place in Vegas I get all my clothes done, and they have a locker system like that where they. And in the locker, everyone's got their own whatever, like whatever they want to keep in it. Usually it looks like there's. There's a liquor bottle and some other stuff that they can have. So my question for you is like, so people would buy cigars and they just put their own cigars there. So when they came, they have to carry them back and forth. They just have it 100% there. That's the whole reason there. Right.
- [22:21]
Simon Devlin
So you'd sell them the cigars and then they would place it in the locker.
- [22:24]
Russell Brunson
The stores come hang out with us. You could.
- [22:26]
Simon Devlin
Absolutely. And when you come out and. And they could put a bottle of whiskey in there, or they could put, you know. You know, some. Some would have their locker absolutely full of cigars, and then others would come in and their luck, it would be empty and they would just buy a cigar and consum. Consumption as well. But they had that, you know, and. And, you know, it gave us different things to sell as part of the membership and as part of this.
- [22:49]
Russell Brunson
Because I have an event center that we're launching, and it's like a library museum thing. I was like, wouldn't it be cool to have. And I saw the one in Vegas. I was like, that'd be such a cool thing. I'm like, what are people put that. Put their book in there. They want to read and they come back, you know, I'm like, I don't know, but it's crazy. They would buy a cigar from you and put like, I could sell a book in there. They could store the book.
- [23:07]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. Or we could do a JV and I could sell cigars and they could put some cigars in there. Maybe a little.
- [23:13]
Russell Brunson
So fascinating. Okay, so started there, and then you started bundling in, offer stack in other stuff, memberships. You could increase the value, right?
- [23:22]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. And we started adding in different products to our store as well. It went from Being a cigar shop to a men's luxury gift store where we were selling writing instruments and beautiful writing instruments and we were selling, you know, luggage and wallets and you know, great, great things like that. So it really evolved into being a, what I call a big boys toy store, but still always had a heavy focus on the cigars and. But all the beauty of cigars is actually the toys that go along with it. You know, the different cutters and lighters and humidors and they're just beautiful accessories as well. So we started selling, you know, all of those products as well and then just kept adding to the membership. So and realizing that we could keep adding membership levels and then our members would want to ascend now because we did the experience and the engagement part so well. They just love hanging out there and it. And it's become quite an incredible community. We're just amazing bunch, predominantly, predominantly men though, you know, women are incredibly welcome as members and we, and we do have some fantastic ladies as members. It tends to be that it's the men that generally enjoy the cigars more just by their nature. But yeah, we've got an amazing, amazing group of members there.
- [24:57]
Russell Brunson
We walk through what do the levels look like? What do you charge each level? What are people getting at each level?
- [25:03]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, so it's evolved over time. So first of all, there's a joining fee. So we charge a joining fee. So the joining fee is currently approximately $995. And then they. And then there's the different levels. So we've actually changed it recently. So there's the. We used to have a bronze level of membership but we've done away with that. And we actually. The opening level of membership is a gold level of membership. And with that they get their private cigar keep. They actually get a 10% discount on everything in the store as well. And they also. We added things into the stack which are from outside vendors, which is a really, really good thing. So if you go to this restaurant, you get, you know, an entree. You know, if you go here you get that or you get access to a private dining room or you get access to different things as well. Which we found was really, really valuable to add in to the stack as well. So that's gold. They pay around about 1600 doll. Then we have our platinum. So they get everything obviously that's in gold. Plus they actually get a whiskey keep. So actually. So the cigar keeps, there's two walk in humidor rooms with private cigar keeps. So there's now 500 private cigar keeps. We started out with, you know, 60. And the platinum members actually get a whiskey keep as well, which is actually inside the lounge. So that is a keep which actually has like a. Like a mesh to the front of it, and it's lit up. And so you can see what bottles. They can see what bottles they have in there in their keep. And they can keep whiskey in there or wine or soft drink, whatever. You know, we obviously don't mind on that, but they also get four Platinum Member lunches a year, which are special lunches that we actually host in the lounge itself, where. And they're just fantastic. They're some of my favorite events. Just a great bunch of guys. We now have about 100 platinum members, but it started out as a very, very small group. And they are fantastic days where we have three cigars and we have huge amount of food, a lot of barbecue, American style barbecue stuff as well. Got a great guy, Barbecue events Australia, they look after us. Amazing. And a little bit of wine, a little bit of whiskey as well. And of course, now we made it kind of a sales event where we have a particular raffle item which will be something really, really special. Hard to get or you can't get. If you purchase a certain amount of boxes of cigars on the day, you can actually go into the draw for that as well. And you get a Platinum Member's jacket, which is a smoking jacket, which is really cool. And of course, you get a Platinum Members pin. We follow the formula, the Platinum Members pin and Platinum Members Card as well. All those things which are really, really important. And then we have Platinum plus, which is. Sorry, Platinum doesn't have the jacket. Platinum plus has the jacket. Again, different card. A couple of other different events as well, which are even more exclusive because there's only 30 or 40 of those. And finally, we have our membership that we launched this year, which actually, it actually came to me in the Mastermind meeting with Dan, and it was like I was telling him about all the memberships and all the rest of it, and he's asking questions. I'm like, oh, yeah, there's a waiting list for Platinum Waiting list, Platinum Plus. And he goes, you know what that means, right? And I go, yeah. And he goes, your membership's too cheap. You need another level. So we just created a Devlin's black, and that's $10,000 a year. And we wanted to make that really extra special. So we didn't actually market that. I literally came to. I hand selected the people that I wanted in that very, very small group of 15. And I went and invited them individually, and they get a beautiful Devlin's Black card, which is a metal card, and they get access to things that other people don't get access to. For example, Teresa, my partner, and I, we go to a. Or get invited every year to a special cigar dinner, which is in la, which is hosted by Joe Mantegna, the actor, and Andy Garcia, and for their foundation. And it's a bit of a who's who of Hollywood. Arnie was there last year. Like, it's a. It's a pretty special event. It's a cigar thing. And we've been lucky enough to get invited, and we're like, okay, so if you're a Devlin's Black member, you are going to get a golden ticket to this event. You get to get your way from Australia and your accommodation and all the rest of it, but you get to come with us. And we took our first group in early September, and they just had most incredible time as well, which just cements that whole relationship as well. So.
- [30:32]
Russell Brunson
So you handpicked those people and invited them personally. It wasn't like a. Here's a sales letter. Did. What was the close rate? Did you get all of them? Everyone invited?
- [30:40]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, there were. There were just. There were two guys that, because of their circumstances, they couldn't. And they. I know they really, really want to, but it was because of their personal circumstances at the time, and I can.
- [30:54]
Russell Brunson
Ruin my close rate. Come on, guys.
- [30:55]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. Yeah. And, like, the first. You know, the first five, I was.
- [31:00]
Russell Brunson
Like, no one's gonna say no.
- [31:01]
Simon Devlin
I am. And I'm. I'm batting 100%.
- [31:05]
Russell Brunson
Yeah.
- [31:05]
Simon Devlin
I'm the greatest ever, you know, and we. We did it. The guys will listen to this podcast and be like, hey, bugger, I knew what you were doing. But we had these. These Devlin's Black cards made, and I put individual numbers on the. But I actually, before I went and sat down with these people, I had their name written already engraved on the.
- [31:34]
Russell Brunson
Card, and I cannot say no.
- [31:37]
Simon Devlin
And so, you know, I'm going through my perfect webinar pinch. And then I. And you get this card, and I hand it over, and they turn it over and their names on it as well. And look, the guys. The guys were amazing. They just really appreciated being invited to it as well. And, you know, some guys were, like, almost to tears, you know, like, wow, you've included me in this. Which was. Which was really, really cool, because the truth is, they're actually my buddies as well, you know, so. It's. Yeah, but it's great if you can. If you can offer that next level. And I'm sure you have it with your Atlas Group and your other groups as well, so.
- [32:15]
Russell Brunson
Cool. So if somebody cancels or leaves or doesn't re up, do you take the jacket and the cards and the pins back? Or they get those forever?
- [32:21]
Simon Devlin
No, we take them.
- [32:23]
Russell Brunson
Do you really? Well, let me take your coat back.
- [32:27]
Simon Devlin
Well, you store it at Devlin's.
- [32:29]
Russell Brunson
Oh, gotcha.
- [32:30]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:32]
Russell Brunson
So that's gonna be a huge pain of disconnect, knowing, like, oh, man, this is my.
- [32:36]
Simon Devlin
And that's what you have to do, right? It's the. It's the pain of disconnect. It's like with the Devlin's Black, everyone has their own number. So I am. My number is triple zero. And then there's 001-002-003. I mean, we've never numbered anything like that membership. And now what we did is we built a whole new set of whiskey keeps. Teresa actually organized it, and they were only actually installed this week. And they're three times the size of the other whiskey keeps, and they're a different color, and they're next to each other, and then there's a plaque on there, and everything that we do with the Devlin's Black is all their number, so it's double 002, you know, and then their surname as well. So the pain of disconnect is you lose spot.
- [33:23]
Russell Brunson
You lose.
- [33:23]
Simon Devlin
Do I want to give up double zero seven or double zero eight or, you know, all of that as well? So, in fact, even at our events, so we actually did something with the Devlins black. Quite special in that we actually did. Instead of just doing the events at Devlins, we actually have a private dinner at my house, or at our house, I should say. And. And their. Teresa had organized. You know, they have a steak knife which has got their number and name on it. There's a R. Black tasting glass, which is a completely blind tasting glass. So the glass is completely black, and it's got their name and their number on it. And, you know, there's a napkin embroidered with their name and their number on it. So just making things ultra special as well.
- [34:10]
Russell Brunson
What a cool experience for people. I'm thinking, like, obviously it's funny, because normally when we talk about continuity and memberships, everyone's like, oh, membership site. They think online, really easily. Like, I don't know how this would work offline, right? And then as you explain offline, it seems so cool. Like, well, that would never work online, but it's like both these principles work both ways. Right. You know, I think when I got into the Dan Kenyon World, before we bought the company back, cindam, you were in it, right? A GKIC had. There was like, what? There's diamond, diamond plus gold, gold plus peak performers. Titanium. Titanium. Like, there's like 20 different levels. When I got it, I think there's like six or seven still. And I was like, I can't handle all these levels. So we shrunk it down and simplified it, but now we're like starting to reopen different levels. But I think, you know, I want to make sure people are listening this. You're not going to be like, oh, well, I don't have a brick and mortar, so I can't do lockers, so it's not going to work. It's like the concept is you create an offer at each level and, like, these exclusive things where people, like, they feel status, they feel excitement, they feel these things to be able to be there. And that's what they're plugging into. Right. It's not that it has to be a locker, it's just the concept of how you structure the offer and then how you give status and these things that people don't want to lose.
- [35:15]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. And I honestly believe there's not a single business in the world that you can't add a membership to. So Teresa and I have just acquired a venue which is going to be a great new hospitality venue, which is not far from Devlin's as well. And there's great, obviously, synergies there. It's actually.
- [35:35]
Russell Brunson
Part of.
- [35:35]
Simon Devlin
It is actually the worst business in the world, which is the restaurant business. Right. 100% the worst business in the world. But if you do it differently and add a membership into that, then that changes the numbers completely, you know. And so one of the things actually that I'm. This is my this week thing is getting my offer stack. Right. Maybe you can workshop that with me. So basically the first part to the membership, this venue. So the venue is called the Embassy. It's going to be opening in February, and it has a restaurant at the front. It also has a bar. There's actually three different levels to it. And it has a rooftop as well, which would be a whiskey and cigar lounge, which is awesome. And it has some private cellars down underneath, which we're calling the symposiums, which are private dining rooms where you're actually in a wine cellar as well. And so I'm looking for all the, what are all the different parts that I can put as part of an offer stack as well. So we'll do like a wine club to start with as well, where people that love their wine, you know, they'll open the menu. There'll be two different prices on there as well. You know, there'll be the member prize, the wine club member price, and then there'll be the normal price. Right. And there'll be quite a difference in those prices. So they're like, oh, how do I get that right? Oh, you need to be a member of the wine club. You know, we're about to do a founding membership for the embassy where it'll be for probably two or three years. And I'm in the middle of creating that stack. I'm trying to work out what to put in and what to leave out. But that just changes the business of the restaurant business. Because going back to our model of experience, return path and offer is we do experience incredibly well. So only people that have the service gene will work in this venue, you know, so they will be automatically engaging with people. But how do we get them to consistently come back? And that is you must have that systemized return path and that systemized return path must include a membership like that. I think with retail and hospitality. I've got a book coming out. Can I plug it?
- [37:58]
Russell Brunson
Yeah, let's go for it.
- [37:59]
Simon Devlin
Okay. So that framework, the experience, return path and offer, the first book is actually on retail and it's called the Two Legged Stool. Why your retail business is destined to fail. And it's because so many businesses, if they just concentrating on the offer, which a lot of businesses do, they'll fail in the first 12 to 18 months. Right. Because if they don't have the experience and engagement, people come, but they don't come back. Exactly. Right. Like, what's this? You know, great. You know, they concentrate on the offer. We sell cigars at this price. This is what our store looks like, is beautifully merchandise all around. That's the offer. Right. The experience is the rocket fuel that makes people truly engaged. But it's the return path that gives you the rivers of gold. You know, that is the. Yeah, that's the whole thing. So the two legged stool is you. You've probably been to a restaurant before, you had incredible experience. You know, the offer, the food was amazing, maybe the wine list was amazing. You know, the staff were fantastic. On the way out you said, you know, thank you so much. And the maitre d'or said, yeah, please come again. And like You've never come back.
- [39:11]
Russell Brunson
But two years later, like, let's go back that place.
- [39:14]
Simon Devlin
And then what happens is you hear in the newspaper, which is happening a lot in Australia at the moment. I'm sure it is in the United States. Much love restaurant closing its doors. And that's after three years, four years, five years. And that's because the owner's been sitting on this two legged stool and not one, not, you know, wondering every morning whether, is it going to be a busy day, is it going to be a busy week, is it going to be a busy month? And you know, business just continually goes up and down like that, but with different systemized return paths, with all kinds of different return paths, which include membership, continuity, that completely changes. You know, you can, you can pay your rent. You know, it's my goal with the embassy that we, we, we actually are making. There are payments on the building from our continuity program. Right. So then that changes the whole, you know, the whole, the whole dynamic.
- [40:07]
Russell Brunson
Hey, this is Russell Brunson and I want to jump in really quick to share with you a new assessment I found out that is insanely cool. You guys know I'm obsessed with personality profiles and assessments, but this one is different because not only does it help you understand yourself, but more importantly, especially for us who are entrepreneurs, it helps us understand our employees, our teams, and get people sitting on the right seats in the bus so we can get more stuff done. I just had a chance to interview Patrick Lancioni, talking specifically about this new assessment they created called Working Genius. And the Working Genius is awesome. Like this test, I had actually blocked out an hour to take it because I was so excited for the, for the new assessment. And it only took me like 10 minutes or less to get it done. Yet even though it takes only 10 minutes, like you can actually apply this immediately. I took it for myself. I had my team take it. And what's cool about it is from there we figure out exactly what people's working geniuses are. And that's important because if you're building a team or a company, you got to figure out, make sure that you have first off the right people, but make sure the right people are sitting in the right seats on the bus. And this is what this assessment will teach you how to do. Now normally this assessment you can go to workinggenius.com and there's two GS in the middle, workinggenius.com but I got you a 20% discount on the assessment, which is only $25. So don't stress it's not an expensive test at all. But you get 20% discount off off when you put in the keyword secrets at checkout. So go to workinggenius.com again 2G's working genius, 2G's in the middle. Workinggenius.com and then use promo code secrets S E C R E T S at checkout, get 25% off but then go take the test again. It takes you 10 minutes but even in a 10 minute session you will get something that is so insanely valuable to help you understand yourself, to make sure you're working in a spot that's going to be the most joy number one. But then number two, it's going to make sure that you are with your teams getting them in the right seats as well. So anyway, I love this assessment. Go check it out@workinggenius.com and enter the promo code SECRETS for 20% discount. Take this test for yourself and for your team and I promise you it will change the working dynamics amongst everybody and help your company to grow.
- [41:56]
Tommy John
Great days start with great underwear. So if you're looking for something special, give Tommy John and gift a better day. Everything we make is meticulously crafted from breathable stretch fabric for the perfect fit, including our sleepwear for him and her. It feels good to give, but it feels great to give. Tommy John. Find something for everyone and pick up something for yourself because at Tommy John greatness is in our very fabric. Don't miss Tommy John's cyber Monday sale. Save 40% site wide@tommyjohn.com Spotify see site for details.
- [42:26]
Russell Brunson
Well it's funny because like you think about every now every single customer is coming into your, into your business walks through the front door. It's like it's compounding on the continuity over time, right? That's like what I teach in linchpin. I'm like if you structure this correctly, like every time you sell something it's compounding your continuity versus just a one off sale that you got to go pay Zuckerberg for another click and another one. And you know this thing that we get into where it gets more and more expensive versus like if 1 out of 10 of those people turn a continuity member over time that starts stacking and stacking and you know with clickfunnels we had that, we got the point where a hundred thousand active members, it's just like, it's insane. The revenue from that we never could have matched in bringing new people in the front door ever. You know what I mean? It's crazy.
- [43:03]
Simon Devlin
And that's the. And that is the true lifetime value. Right? That, that is the thing. I actually took our framework and wanted to know whether I could take it online. So I'm. I kind of the opposite of going from after. So I was like, okay, could I do experience and engagement? So I knew I could do return path and I knew I could do offer, but could I take the experience and engagement online and therefore get the same kind of jet fuel propulsion into my return path? Sorry, keep hitting the mic. And so I decided to create a completely separate cigar business. So Devlins is our business and.
- [43:47]
Russell Brunson
Call.
- [43:48]
Simon Devlin
It something completely different. Create an attractive character out of thin air. A guy by the name of Joe box was called cigarbox.com and the attractive character is this guy called Joe Box.
- [43:59]
Russell Brunson
Is this somebody you know or is like a cartoon?
- [44:01]
Simon Devlin
No, no, cartoon character. Yeah. He's really awes. G'day, mate. How am I Joe Box here? And so when we write copy, that's how we write it. All right. Like in gay area, everything's. Yeah, how are you, mate? You know, it's kind of Crocodile Hunter meets, you know, cigar guy. Right. Anyway, so we created this attractive character and then the only. And because you can't advertise, so you can't advertise cigars. Yeah. Because it's anywhere.
- [44:26]
Russell Brunson
Just Australia.
- [44:27]
Simon Devlin
Well, in, in definitely in Australia because tobacco product, right. So it's illegal to advertise. So we couldn't do, we couldn't drive traffic. And I, and I was not going to use my existing database. Right. So because I wanted to be a completely separate business at different price points as well, mainly focused on the east coast of Australia. So the only thing that we could do was SEO and word of mouth. So we had to make sure that every person that came in stuck. Right. So the first time, first thing that I did was like, okay, how do we, how do we change that whole experience thing? Like you buy something online and there's no human interaction and stuff arrives and all the rest of it. So I created something that I call a lifetime value call. I initially called it a stick call, but basically what it is, it was a welcome call. So the first time you ordered from Cigarbox, you would actually get a phone call from a team member. And originally it was me being Joe Box and literally just welcomed them to the cigar box family. So welcome to the cigar box family. So it literally I'd call you and you'd answer and I'd say, g'day. Is that Russell? And you go, yeah, okay, it's Simon Devlin here. Well, I wouldn't say Simon Devlin. I would say it's Joe here from Cigar Box. Just saw you placed your first order with us and wanted to give you a call and welcome you to the Cigar Box family. Now it was not an add to cart call, which goes against the grain a little, but it was plugging the.
- [45:54]
Russell Brunson
Experience part you're missing.
- [45:55]
Simon Devlin
Exactly. And then we would just say to them, hey, just to let you know what happens, what's happening, we're packing your beautiful cigars today. And we'd always make sure we ship same day. And we're gonna send that out and you're gonna get an email letting you know about all of that. And you know, do you have any questions? And they'll be like, oh wow, thank you so much for calling. Like I've never got a call before when I purchased something online. And often they'd have questions and often they would do their own add to car, but it was completely different. And then I would say to them, whereabouts are you on your cigar journey? And they might say, oh look, I'm just starting out. And we'll say, do you want us to send you some fact sheets on cutting and lighting or enjoying cigar or I've been smoking cigars for a long time. We'd say, hey, do you want us to send you a fact sheet on pairing your beverages with cigars? And they go, oh wow, that's amazing. And then we, they'd get a follow up email straight away and then they would actually go into a 11 email welcome sequence as well. And when they got their first order, it have a handwritten note in there with a little gift, a cigar cutter as well. Now just that welcome call, people would write reviews before they even got the product, like off the charts. And these reviews, I was like, I don't know if I can use them. It looks like I wrote them myself. Things like, I have never experienced service like this online before. This is old school service, that sort of thing. So then when we started, started making offers in our return path, like our weekly ligador, that the uptake on it is huge. All because they have a different interaction. And the other thing that happened is you don't get as many calls, people calling up saying, what's happening with this? What's happening? Because you've built a level of trust that they haven't felt before. So in fact so much so that one of the other things that we do with that whole experience and engagement is sometimes they call up and they're like, hey, my parcel has an arrived. It was sent with Australia Post. I can see that you guys send it. I know it's not your fault, but is there anything you can do? And we were like, yeah, no worries. Let us follow this up. And they might say, oh, I followed up with Australia Post. And they said, if you haven't received it in two weeks, then, you know, call us back. You know, and what we would do is we would offer to resend the entire package. And generally it's like three or four hundred dollars worth of cigars. And they'd be like, oh, okay, you just resend the whole thing. And I'm like, yeah, we just resend the whole thing. And when the second package arrives, you let us know and we'll give you postage to send it back to us. Now, there's a lot of trust there, right? You're trusting that people will send it back. The reason why they send it back is that first welcome call. Now, what actually happens is this. This the second package always arrives the day after the other one. It's like they kind of push each other out the system. And then we call them and we say, hey, you can send it back, or we'll give you a 10 or 15% discount off the. Off the second package. And you can keep it. Now 90% of the time, they'll keep it. Yeah, they'll keep it. Right. But that experience and engagement they have not experienced before. And it completely changes the model. And we took that business from literally zero to now doing, you know, over a million dollars a year in a couple of years. And now we're adding in the true continuity program, which is our new thing, which is a cigar of the month.
- [49:27]
Russell Brunson
So at this point, that. That on, off, there's no continuity. That's just a straight.
- [49:31]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. So we. So we have an offer that we send out every week, which is called the weekly ligador, which is ligador meaning. So ligador means master blender. Actually, most people's cigar people don't know that was kind of a name. I was looking for a name.
- [49:43]
Russell Brunson
I need something cool.
- [49:44]
Simon Devlin
Spanish Master blender. It's called Ligador, which is a seven or eight stick offer. And we will throw in a couple of other things with it as well. And it changes every week. And, you know, people, we just send that out, and we go deep on the stories behind all the cigars as well. Like, not just going, this cigar is like this, and it tastes like this. And we do the storytelling, right? And that just changes everything. So now we are now launching the continuity program which is called Family of the Leaf. So Joe. Joe's always talking about brother of leaf. You're a brother of the leaf or fellow brother of the leaf or sister of the leaf. So we're creating family of the Leaf, which is the. Which is the cigar box a month which you sign up for with three different levels. And that's launching early next year as well. So that's cool.
- [50:33]
Russell Brunson
You know, the price points will be at those three levels.
- [50:35]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. So we need to really finalize it, but I think it'll be 197, 297 and 597.
- [50:45]
Russell Brunson
That's a monthly or quarterly?
- [50:46]
Simon Devlin
Monthly.
- [50:47]
Russell Brunson
People have $587 a month in cigarette cigars.
- [50:49]
Simon Devlin
Do you know what? Cigars in Australia are crazy expensive. Like, because the tax is really, really high. Like your average cigars, you know, 50, 60, $70.
- [50:58]
Russell Brunson
Really?
- [50:58]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:59]
Russell Brunson
I had no idea.
- [51:00]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. Huh. Yeah, it's. You gotta. You gotta really love them. But mind you, the. The average wage in Australia is a lot higher than.
- [51:10]
Russell Brunson
What's your. What's your margin on that?
- [51:12]
Simon Devlin
Or should I say on a.
- [51:13]
Russell Brunson
Maybe not. I don't know.
- [51:16]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, it's reasonably healthy.
- [51:18]
Russell Brunson
Let well enough that you're in Boise, Idaho, hanging out with us today. No. That's fascinating. Okay, so I'll recap a couple things. Number one, so your three parts you always talk about. Walk through the. Walk those three things again.
- [51:30]
Simon Devlin
Experience engagement. So we write it as a Venn diagram because they are overlapping circles. You know, what becomes part of your experience? Engagement becomes part of your return path, becomes part of your offer. And the bigger you make those circles, the closer they come in together and the faster they spin and throw off cash, you know, so it's experience, return path, and offer, you know, and once you start laying that framework over your business in terms of retail or hospitality, and in fact, a number of my friends who have other businesses, they're like, no, no, mate, this works in. In everything. But that's what I know. You will just be picking the diamonds out because you realize where you can tweak things, you know. Oh, we actually do experience reasonably well. But now I know why that person is amazing and that person is not. You know, so we need to find some more of those people or, okay, I have great experience and engagement. I have a good offer, but I don't know where my custom from, you know, so. Oh, okay. I need to put a membership in it, you know, so that's the other thing too. I'm always saying to people, don't think subscription, think membership. There's a difference. You know, you can subscribe to something and turn it on and off but with a membership the pain of disconnect is greater because you're actually gotta be part of something. So we actually have, we actually have something called the lifetime value pyramid. So the idea is obviously the money is in the list, right? But it's actually the money actually not in the list, it's in your relationship to the list. Experience and engagement is what changes that. So at the top we have customer and client. So at the top we have list which is really cold. No one wants to say like hey Russell, he's on my list, let me introduce him customer and client. Then we have heard, then we have tribe, then we have community and finally we have the richest vein which is what we call BFMs which is business family members. So you're part of the clickfunnels family, you're part of the magnetic marketing family. So and it's where they not only feel like that but they're treated like that as well. It's where they identify like that. I mean that your funnel hackers, they're your BFMs and they're the most hyper responsive to your offer is where you could get them into BFMS and it's the experience engagement circle that pushes them down that lifetime value pyramid. You want to get them all to be BFMS as well. So that's the.
- [54:11]
Russell Brunson
I love it. So powerful. And I think it's really cool to see how you did it in a local business and then now how you do it on the online. I think a lot of people online same thing like how do I create an experience? They're buying on through a funnel and we ship them something. You know, just the way you took that and weave that in is really a unique way to look at it too for everyone. Which is awesome.
- [54:29]
Simon Devlin
Yeah. I said to a mate of mine, he had a purely online. Actually a guy that I met had a purely online business and I asked him and it was reasonably sizable. I said how many people do you have in customer service? And he said I have four. And I said what do they do? And he's like I mainly answered calls. What's happening with this? How does that feel all the rest of it? And I said oh, how quickly do you ship? And he's like oh, we ship within two or three days. And I'm like okay, take your two best customer service people and just have them call every single person on their first Order and do this lifetime value call, this welcome call and then fire the other two people.
- [55:08]
Russell Brunson
Solve all your problems because you don't.
- [55:10]
Simon Devlin
Need them anymore because you're not going to get the inbound because they're like oh wow, like I already know what's happening, you know. Plus I said get all your people, put them into your warehouse and get to shipping same day. People think that Amazon win because of price. It's not. Amazon worked out and they actually got it from really the company. They bought Zappos but they worked out they needed experience and engagement. But the best way for them to do that was to get the product to someone as quickly as possible and make a no questions returns policy. They were the two things that actually matter more than price and you know, that makes. So people don't need to compete on price all the time, they just need to compete on customer service and speed of delivery.
- [56:04]
Russell Brunson
That's so cool.
- [56:05]
Simon Devlin
That's it.
- [56:06]
Russell Brunson
Well, dude, you gave me 25 ideas for myself so I'm actually really, really excited. I hope everyone who's been listening to this gets ideas again. We have so many people who are online businesses. I think the things you're doing offline will help them but I think also a lot of we have a lot of offline businesses. Like I don't understand these funnel things. How could it possibly work for me? And I think you showed kind of both sides of that, which is super fascinating. So I appreciate you coming in. Sharon. Is the book out live? Is it live already?
- [56:30]
Simon Devlin
So the book officially comes out in February. It's if you go to SimonDevlin.com book or you can actually go to the TwoLeggedStoolBook.com either one you can start ordering a pre copy and if they're down.
- [56:49]
Russell Brunson
In Perth they can order some cigars or come to the shop and absolutely upgrade to the top level of members.
- [56:54]
Simon Devlin
If you make the little flight out of the 30 hours it'll be worth it to get cigars. I promise you it'll be completely worth it. And if you're in Australia and I'm sure there are, there are so many clickfunnels people in Australia as well. Yeah, we're in, we're in High Street Subiaco and the new venue opens up also in early February which is called the Embassy and that's on Rockabee Road.
- [57:14]
Russell Brunson
Very cool. Are you ever going to do the online business here in the States as well or are you keeping it local to Australia? Because the laws and regulations.
- [57:20]
Simon Devlin
Yeah, the laws and regulations. Regulations actually what I'm working to now in the States is why I'm coming here is really the coaching information business. I worked out that framework and I worked out how badly it is needed in retail and hospitality and I really came to the Renegade millionaire masterminds to work out how I was going to do that in Australia. And it was actually Dan and Darcy and Marty that actually said to me, hey, hey, don't do it in Australia, come and do it here. So I'm partnering with some people here, Kim, Walsh, Phillips, and hopefully we're going to teach that framework here and find millions of people with service genes and give them another boost in life as well as we teach them what their superpower is and have another great business and have a lot of fun doing it, which I think is my calling it.
- [58:13]
Russell Brunson
Come to America more often. So keep your second home in Boise.
- [58:16]
Simon Devlin
Absolutely. My second time here and I love it.
- [58:18]
Russell Brunson
Awesome. I appreciate being here and that was an awesome episode. So thanks so much.
- [58:22]
Simon Devlin
Thank you. Really appreciate it. Cheers.