Inside the Copywriting Brain That Powers My Funnels | #Marketing - Ep. 24

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Russell Brunson Show – Inside the Copywriting Brain That Powers My Funnels | #Marketing - Ep. 24

Episode Information:

• Title: Inside the Copywriting Brain That Powers My Funnels
• Host: Russell Brunson | YAP Media
• Guest: Heath (Head Copywriter at Russell Brunson’s organization)
• Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 24 of The Russell Brunson Show, host Russell Brunson delves deep into the art and science of copywriting with his head copywriter, Heath. This episode offers listeners a comprehensive look into Heath’s journey in the writing world, the intricacies of advertorials, the evolving role of AI in copywriting, and invaluable advice for aspiring copywriters. The conversation is rich with practical strategies, personal anecdotes, and expert insights that illuminate the pivotal role copywriting plays in building effective marketing funnels.

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Backgrounds and Beginnings in Copywriting

Russell Brunson kicks off the episode by introducing Heath, highlighting his pivotal role as the head copywriter over the past five years. Heath shares his passion for writing, rooted in his early aspirations in film and comedy, inspired by legends like Steve Martin, Mel Brooks, and Conan O'Brien.

• Heath’s Academic Journey:
  “[...] I have a bachelor's in English and creative writing. And then I went back and did my master's in fiction. And I just told myself, I'm going to get a career in writing.”
  (04:07)

• Transition to Copywriting:
  Heath recounts his entry into copywriting in 2012 while supporting his family, landing a role with an e-commerce company in Arizona focusing on health supplements. His ability to adopt different voices and perspectives, honed through his improv background, made him an invaluable asset.

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Understanding Advertorials

A significant portion of the discussion centers around advertorials, their evolution, and their strategic use in marketing funnels.

• Definition and Purpose:
  Heath explains, “Advertorials have been used for a very, very long time. It’s a sneaky way of advertising because it’s made to look like an editorial piece.”
  (08:34)

• Components of an Advertorial:
  Advertorials blend seamlessly with editorial content, often appearing as legitimate articles with a subtle call to action. Heath describes different types, including:

  • Jump Pages: Short pages acting as a bridge between the advertorial and the video sales letter (VSL).
  • Step-Based CTAs: Utilizing urgency and step-by-step instructions to guide readers towards conversion.

• Platforms for Advertorials:
  While Taboola and Outbrain are highlighted as primary platforms due to their wide reach and association with reputable publications, Heath notes that advertorials can also be effectively deployed on platforms like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Google.

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The Art of Copywriting

Russell and Heath explore the nuances of copywriting, emphasizing its role beyond mere words to encompass persuasion and strategic structuring.

• Copywriting vs. Copy Collecting:
  Heath shares an influential perspective: “I really think about that it’s copy collecting. So I’m just collecting the things that Luke is telling me.”
  (19:33)
  This approach involves gathering insights and authentic narratives to craft compelling copy.

• Heath’s Methodology:
  He emphasizes the importance of understanding the product creator’s vision, conducting thorough interviews, and immersing himself in the brand’s tone and target audience. This ensures that the copy resonates deeply with the intended demographic.

• Russell’s Journey in Copywriting:
  Russell reflects on his initial challenges with copywriting, including high costs and the necessity to learn the craft himself. He underscores the importance of mastery in copywriting as it permeates various aspects of marketing, from emails to podcasts.

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The Role of AI in Copywriting

The conversation takes a critical look at the integration of AI in copywriting, weighing its benefits against potential shortcomings.

• Heath’s Perspective:
  “[...] you miss out on their lived-in experience. It’s that lived-in experience because I think when I think of copywriting, what you talked about, persuading, it’s getting to know people.”
  (24:24)

  Heath argues that while AI can assist with idea generation and structural tasks, it lacks the nuanced understanding and personal touch that human copywriters bring.

• Russell’s Take:
  He acknowledges AI’s utility in data analysis and idea generation but cautions against over-reliance, emphasizing that authentic persuasion stems from genuine human experience and understanding.

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Collaborative Projects and Funnel Hacking

Russell recounts collaborative projects with Heath, highlighting their approach to funnel hacking—a strategy of dissecting and learning from competitors’ funnels to enhance their own.

• Green Drink Company Project:
  The duo worked together on launching Zuma Juice, a green drink company. Their process involved:

  • Funnel Hacking: Analyzing 30-40 existing funnels related to green drinks and similar supplements.
  • Voice and Tone Development: Conducting in-depth interviews with the brand creator, Luke, to capture the brand’s essence and target audience’s psyche.

• Strategic Approach:
  Heath emphasizes the importance of understanding the product deeply and tailoring the copy to align with the brand’s unique voice and the audience's needs.

---

Advice for Aspiring Copywriters

Towards the end of the episode, Heath offers actionable advice for those looking to break into copywriting:

1. Start with In-House Positions:
   Gain experience by working with an e-commerce company or within a marketing team to understand the practical applications of copywriting.

2. Leverage Freelance Platforms:
   Utilize platforms like Upwork to secure copywriting gigs, building a portfolio while learning the ropes.

3. Embrace Your Unique Voice:
   “If you’re funny, if you have a certain style about you, use that in your copywriting because that really makes you stand out with your personality.”
   (35:39)

4. Continuous Learning and Adaptation:
   Stay updated with industry trends, funnel hacking, and constantly refine your skills through practice and feedback.

Russell adds that aspiring copywriters should model successful funnels, reverse-engineer effective copy structures, and immerse themselves in successful campaigns to grasp underlying principles.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Russell expressing his appreciation for Heath’s insights and collaborative spirit. Listeners are left with a thorough understanding of advertorials, the integral nature of copywriting in marketing funnels, and the delicate balance between leveraging AI and maintaining authentic human touch in persuasive writing.

Notable Quotes:

• Heath on the Power of 'No':
  “The power of no is actually pretty. It can be pretty powerful.”
  (02:25)

• Russell on Learning Copywriting:
  “Copywriting is everything. Eventually when you get better and better, copywriting [...] becomes like second nature.”
  (22:59)

• Heath on AI Limitations:
  “You can't just outsource that to an AI and try to dump your own childhood and everything, your own story into AI for it, then conjure up.”
  (25:36)

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Key Takeaways

• Advertorials remain a powerful tool for engaging cold audiences by blending informational content with subtle calls to action.
• Effective Copywriting hinges on understanding the product, the creator’s vision, and the target audience’s psychology.
• AI in Copywriting serves as a useful assistant for idea generation and structural tasks but cannot replace the nuanced, experiential insights of human copywriters.
• Collaborative Efforts like funnel hacking and in-depth brand analysis are essential for crafting compelling marketing funnels.
• Aspiring Copywriters should focus on gaining practical experience, embracing their unique voices, and continuously learning from successful campaigns.

This episode serves as an invaluable resource for entrepreneurs, marketers, and aspiring copywriters aiming to elevate their marketing strategies through expert copywriting and strategic funnel construction.

Transcript

[Heath]

I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a.

[Russell Brunson]

Gift, especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Ann. I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life even with cancer.

[Heath]

Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause. Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025.

[Russell Brunson]

At Capella University, you can learn at.

[Heath]

Your own pace with our Flexpath learning format. Take one or two courses at a time and complete as many as you can in a 12 week billing session. With Flexpath, you can even finish the bachelor's degree you started in 22 months for $20,000. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University.

[Russell Brunson]

Learn more at capella.edu. fastest 25% of students cost varies by pace.

[Heath]

Transfer credits and other factors.

[Russell Brunson]

Fees apply. Do you have a funnel? But it's not convert. The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next selling online event by going to sellingonline.com podcast. That's sellingonline.com podcast. This is the Russell Brunson show. What's up everybody? This is Russell. Welcome back to the show. I've got a special episode today. I drug one of my favorite people in the room to go talk with me and he's a little nervous. His first time on the podcast. But I'm excited because he's here in town. Heath is our head copywriter for now. Five years, right?

[Heath]

Yeah, it's been five years.

[Russell Brunson]

So the way I found Heath originally and no one can hire him, so don't Google his name. I don't even tell you his last name. Just kidding. No, the way I found him initially is Kelly Felix. I hired him for something and he was showing me how he'd scaled this credit repair thing to like $100 million a year or something. And I was going through all the trainings and he's like, oh, one of the things we use a lot are advertorials. And I had never. I'd heard of one, but I'd never done one before. I was like, do you know anyone you recommend? And he's like, oh, there's this writer named Heath. He's like the best in world Advertorials, you should hire him. And so that's how we first got introduced. And I don't know if you remember this or not, but he made me a video. It was like an hour long video explaining why I should never use an advertorial for my business. I was like, he just sold me to not use his services. This guy's great. And then we've been working together ever since then, so it's great.

[Heath]

Yeah, I always say, like, you hired me by me saying no. The power of no is actually pretty. It can be pretty powerful. No, I was, I was overworked at the time. I was stuck in an American in hotel because our RV was getting worked on.

[Russell Brunson]

Rv.

[Heath]

We were living in an RV at the time. And I. We got in contact and I was, I was overworked. I was doing four different projects. I was partner on this gummy brand that end up falling apart. And then you. Yeah, I got content and then I was looking at it and I was like, but it's already converting. Why do you need an advertorial? So I did. I did this whole big long. It was like a 40 minute plus video. And I just talked you out of not hiring me. And then that was the, the key that gets you to. And then I couldn't keep you off of me. You kept hitting me up for things. And so.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, anyway, he's an amazing copywriter. So he's in office this week. We're writing copy. We're actually doing on Friday, me, him and Shawn Vossler are doing an event. We're gonna be going through Napoleon Hills, Truthful Advertising and geeking out for advertising for a full day. He's in office today writing copy with us. And so I thought we record a podcast episode and I don't talk a lot about copy and copywriting, things like that. And so I asked him if he'd come in and reluctantly, reluctantly, he said yes. And he's here now. So do you want to tell people some of your background, how you became how you got into the writing world?

[Heath]

Yeah, I mean, I've been a writer for a long, long time. I knew I wanted to be involved in film, and my background's always been in comedy. And I love film comedy, comedians and writers. And so I always, I looked up to certain people that I've always admired. One of my heroes has always been Steve Martin and like Mel Brooks. And so I always, I looked at their trajectory and what do they do. Same with Conan O'Brien. And I saw a lot of them you know, they go off to college, they go get a lit, they would go into the literary field, the writing field. And I was like, okay, well I'm gonna go in that field, that area. So I just, just was pushing myself that way. So when I went into college, I didn't have great grades in high school. But then I really busted my butt in college to get perfect grades. I wanted to get perfect grades because I knew I wanted to be a writer in some capacity. I knew I wanted to create stories. So I went and I have bachelor's in English and creative writing. And then I went back and did my master's in fiction. And I just told myself, I'm going to get a career in writing. Somehow I'm going to. I don't know what that's going to look like. I needed to make a living in writing. I didn't want to be a financial advisor. What my dad was, he was always trying to push me to be a financial advisor. The one thing I do appreciate with my dad is he always told me to be my own boss. So he was, I was raised, he's been an entrepreneur my whole life. And he always told me, you know, be your own boss. And I always thought being your own boss meant to be a financial advisor. I was like, no, this is the worst thing I'm not doing. I couldn't do numbers, I couldn't deal with finance. I just, it was so confusing to me. So that's. I got into.

[Russell Brunson]

I was just.

[Heath]

At the time after. It was after my bachelor's is when I was like, okay, I'm gonna get a job in writing. I didn't know what that would look like.

[Russell Brunson]

Did you know about copywriting that time or not?

[Heath]

I didn't know about copywriting at that time. I. No, no, I. It was, yeah, 2012 and I was just like, I just be able to use words to make a living because at the time my whole goal was I have a family to support my wife and daughter. And so I was looking around and that's when I stumbled. This was when I was in Arizona, where I'm from and I found E Com company. There's a lot of E. Com out in Scottsdale, Arizona. So it was an E. Com company for health supplements. But it was a whole range of health supplements, all sorts of different supplements. So they liked me because I have an improv background and they like that I can jump into different voices and different characters and different perspectives and angles because I've been doing that now for over 15 plus years. And so they hired me. And that's when I. That was my first intro into copywriting, and I got thrown into the fire of. I mean, I was writing. Every day was kind of different. I'd be writing baby formula supplements to bodybuilding supplements the next day. I was easily the unhealthiest one in the office. I was not taking care of my body, and I was click clacking away, telling other people of how their metabolism works to put it in.

[Russell Brunson]

Frank, how tall are you?

[Heath]

I'm five seven, so five seven.

[Russell Brunson]

And right now you're like, what?

[Heath]

I'm 167.

[Russell Brunson]

160. How much did you weigh at the time that you're writing the weight loss ads?

[Heath]

Boy, I ballooned up to 260. So I was a. I was a meatball.

[Russell Brunson]

Boy.

[Heath]

I was a hefty. I was a hefty boy.

[Russell Brunson]

Did writing the copy for those things, like, was that part of that transformed you, like, getting shredded and losing weight, all kind of stuff, or.

[Heath]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Russell Brunson]

Halfway through the research, like, oh, my gosh.

[Heath]

You know, what's so. You know, it's so funny. The reason why I wanted to lose a lot of weight is because. Or lose weight is because I was getting tired while reading. I was just getting so fed up. I was trying to get through. Because once I got into grad school, I was really busy. We were reading, like, a novel a week, and I had to do a lot of reading and quickly and understand it and analyze. And I was getting really sleepy. And that was my motivating factor was to. So I can read more. How nerdy is that? So I just wanted to get shredded for books. And that's. Yeah. So that's really why I did. Yeah. And then now I'm.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah.

[Heath]

Healthiest I've ever been.

[Russell Brunson]

So that's awesome. Very cool. So I want to talk. I mean, obviously we could go for days talking about copywriting and different things, but I want to bring some unique stuff because I don't think a lot of our audience knows about some of the things I want to ask you about. So in my world, everyone knows about funnels. They know about landing pages, upsells down sales. That's what we spend so much time on. And maybe we'll come back to that. But what I originally tried to hire you for was a different type of creative. And it's something that I think was really big back in the day. Like, you'd see magazines and they'd have these advertorials. Right. They would push Somebody to go buy something online or to call a phone number, whatever. But then people started using them almost like pre funnel. Like before the funnel starts, there's this page, this advertorial page. Will you explain kind of what an advertorial is? Like, how you kind of got into them? I want people to understand what that is so they can see how this might potentially fit into their business model. And then we talk about specifics on advertorials after that.

[Heath]

Yeah, advertorials. And they've been used for. I, when I got into it, and then once I did my research and got more into it, I didn't realize they've been. They've been. Have been used for a very, very long time. And it's a sneaky way of. The reason why it's called advertorial is because it's an ad, but an editorial. So it's made to look like an editorial piece. Like, it's like you would read in the newspaper. It just looks. It blends in with the newspaper. It looks as though it's just another article written. And the way it reads also is like a very much like an article. And then it. And then it pushes you into a call to action to buy a book, to put information, to get a free. There's. There are old ones where you can get, like, free cassettes. You know, test out these cassettes, check out these records. Free recipe book. You can still see them. I mean, there's so many of them today. Even if you go to, like, the checkout line at the grocery store, you. You pick up like a Women's World magazine and that is filled with advertorials in there. They'll tell an amazing story of a transformation of someone losing weight. And then it would go into a call to action to get this recipe book of what they've used. So I got into it. Let's see, it was through. His name is James Van Ellswyck. He became an early mentor for me in the native space. So James did a lot of. And continues to do a lot of work in the native space through Taboola.

[Russell Brunson]

Outbrain on native advertising.

[Heath]

Native advertising, yeah. So when you go to any of the website, any of the news sites, and you see the ads at the bottom and you click on it, and it oftentimes it'll take you to an article. It's an ad, but it's made to look like an article, as if you're still on that site or you're still involved in that world. And it's read as if like an editorial piece, but it's an advertorial. So it's like a pre sale, It's a pre sale to sales page. So it's a way for people to get information. It's used for cold audiences, really, really cold audiences. And it's a way to first understand the problem and then get them interested and then get them over to the sales page.

[Russell Brunson]

Like you said, it's interesting because most the sites I see those ads on, typically they are like the news sites. And you scroll down and they look like they're almost like just articles on the news site. But there's usually things like Taboola right above it or something. And usually they're crazy pictures. Always like a crazy picture of like some, some person like peeling their skin like eight inches away from their face or some weird like banana that's green or purple or like weird things that catch your attention and you're like, what is this thing? And you click on it takes you to what looks like an article on that site and then at the end of the article usually. And it's not the structure in a way where it's kind of sells you but not feels more like an article but then it pushes you to the part where someone's gonna buy. Right?

[Heath]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

So that's kind of the visual for you guys trying to imagine what it looks like. It's something that's happening. It's between the new site advertorial page and then from there we go to your funnel.

[Heath]

Yep. And there's all sorts of different types of advertorials too. And also a level of aggressiveness of like how aggressive the avatar might be depending on what site you're on. So like you talk about those thumbnails, those different images, they can be really, you know, really kind of a strange fruit that they're holding. And it talks about like some sort of weight loss supplement. And it'll, it'll mention like, you know, unbelievable fruit, burns 3 pounds overnight. And so you click on it. Oftentimes you'll go to what's called a jump page that's also an advertorial. A jump page is just a very short one. And it's a page between the website you were just on and a vsl, a video sales letter, which is a long form, you know, long form video that sells you of course, the product. So that jump page is used for compliance reasons, but also as kind of like a tease. It gets you to want to click over to that video to watch the Video and that jump page will be maybe two, three paragraphs. It's very short. And then I'll just have a button that says watch now. So that's another, that's another type. And then you'll have other types that are more longer. It all varies of how they look depending on E comm or an info product, finance. It all depends on the industry.

[Russell Brunson]

Interesting. Now I saw this is way back in the day, so it's been a while but it was actually pre clickfunnels. We were building out our Neuracel nerve pain offer back then and we're looking at all the advertorials. That's where a lot of that traffic was coming from. And I saw a lot of companies like the acai bearing weight loss companies who in the advertorial they'd have two products where they're like hey, step one you need to get the acai berries. And step from two you got to get the whatever, whatever wrap where it was pushed into two different funnels. I remember talking to one of the media buyers. You're saying that like for every one sell you on number one you get like, like half a cell number two or something. So increase their cart value by having. Did you see many of those or do people kind of shit like I haven't seen them for a long time so stopped working.

[Heath]

Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I can't even recall. I'd have to like look at that. But I don't remember that.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, they keep step one, go buy the dot com secrets books. You understand the funnel. And step number two, get your free clickfunnels account, you know like.

[Heath]

And it would be on one page.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, it was in the article. Yeah, it was in the page. Basically like here's the step by step process. Go get. Because it would say it was like this is a system. So you need like the acai berries are the supplement and this was like a wrap and it was almost like you know, or face cream. Like this face cream's the step one. This was step two. Anyway, so I just.

[Heath]

Interesting. We'll still use steps. I still use steps in an advertorial. And then I. Because I've taught a lot of people how to do advertorials and so at the end of the advertorial a lot of times like what to do now And I still do it. I'll say step one, go here. And then step two, a lot of the times I'll just some sort of urgency. Step two, make sure to order more. Make sure to order at least three, because this is selling out. It's selling out fast and everything. Or we'll also do the reverse kind of like urgency where it's like limit five per household. So it's almost kind of like it's already selling out so fast we can only limit. And so a lot of times I'll still do the step one, step two and then step three, and then on the step three, click here now. But it's just an, it's, it's kind of like in a nice sneaky way of each one as a cta. To the same thing. To the same thing.

[Russell Brunson]

Just keeps reinforcing the core call to action. Interesting. Do you ever get one of those ads that makes you go, why am I even seeing this? Not long ago, I kept getting served ads for these super fancy chef grade pots and pans like premium artisan cookware. And I'm sitting here thinking, you guys, I barely even know how to boil water properly. I'm more of a protein bar and a podcast guy now. I'm not knocking the product. It just wasn't meant for me. And the real problem is that the company probably paid good money to show me that ad. And that's why I always tell marketers that relevance is everything. And that's where LinkedIn ads comes in. This isn't your average ad platform. It's a network of over a billion professionals. And targeting options are insane. You can target the exact buyers by job title, industry, company size, role, seniority, even skills and company revenue. That means your message gets in front of the right people, not someone who thinks that instant ramen is gourmet dining. Now, if you're serious about B2B marketing and not just throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping it'll stick, then you've got to be on LinkedIn. And here's the best part. LinkedIn will give you $100 credit on your next campaign. So you can see it in action. Just go to LinkedIn.com clicks. That's LinkedIn.com clicks. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. If you've been following me for any amount of time, you know I always talk about as you're growing and scaling your company, the most important thing is finding the who, not the how. Who is the person that can help you drive more traffic. Who is the person that could be your CEO. Who is the person that can build your funnels. Understanding the who will dramatically speed up the growing and the scaling of your company. Now, the best place to find the who's who can help you with your vision is Indeed. When it comes to hiring, the right who's Indeed is all you need. Indeed gives you the ability to stop struggling to get your job post seen on other sites. Because Indeed's got a sponsored job listing where you can stand out in front of your dream hires. With these sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates. That means your funnel builder is going to see it. That means the person driving traffic your funnels is going to see. It means your new CEO or CMO or whatever you're looking for is going to see the exact ad for your business as soon as they open up. Indeed. And that makes a huge difference. In fact, according to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. One of the things I love about Indeed is it makes hiring so fast. You can post the job and within minutes you're getting applications who are coming in looking to become the who inside of your business. Prior to that, I was often posting my help wanted ads on Facebook and Instagram and then getting tons and tons of responses from unqualified people who had no idea what they were doing. Whereas Indeed, again, they're only being seen by the exact person I'm looking to hire now. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, there's no monthly subscriptions, there's no long term contracts. You only pay for results. They may be wondering how fast is Indeed. Well, in the minute I've been talking to you. So far, 23 hires were made on Indeed across the Indeed network. So there's no longer need to wait any longer. You can speed up your hiring right now by going to Indeed. And listeners of the Show Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your job more visible by going to indeed.com clicks just go to indeed.com C L I C K S right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com clicks, terms and conditions apply. Are you hiring? Indeed is all you need. So okay, what are other elements that typically you would have an advertorial. It's not like a sales letter, like headline story, but like it's different right? The structure it is.

[Heath]

There's so many different types. I always, when I was doing them pretty hardcore and pretty consistently every week I would started doing, we would always test above the fold. So I'd always give three. The main body would always be the same. So what I would always do is I would do three headlines and three top images and Then three leads and out of those three, we can get a good winner. And then the main body of the advertorial would be the same because it's always above the fold. You want to test the most because that's where people are landing, that's where people are bouncing. So we want to see. We would always. And then we would do variation. So we'd always. Yeah, always, always three different headlines, three different images, and then three different leads to go in. So a lead might be. I'd always do a story lead. Something that, that evokes that emotion, whatever that motion may be, depending on the product. So if it's a survival product, there's a different emotion there for a survival product compared to a weight loss supplement. Different kind of emotion. And then also the point of view of who is it coming from. And then for instance, for a gadget, for a gadget advertorial, a lot of times people love the underdogs. So it's like this, this small, this, you know, startup company is disrupting the billion dollar watch industry. People love that. Those, those kind of leads always did really, really well. So that would be a different lead that I would use in there. And then, and then taking a look at the headlines, I obviously do a lot of funnel hacking. So I have a massive advertorial swipe folder that I keep, and I keep adding to it. So I'll save and I'll show different examples from, from all the different industries of what they're doing for their headlines. So I always jump in there, take a look. And not only that, but I'll also go to. I look at old advertorials as well. So my little thing I've always mentioned this is if you look at old magazines, I'll go to antique shops and find old magazines. You can find old Playboys. I did that. I have a whole stack of really, really old playboys of like 70s and 80s.

[Russell Brunson]

For the articles.

[Heath]

For the articles. It really is for the ads, what's so funny? And I. And no one believes me, but I'm trying to say it like it really is, to be honest, because they're pretty astounding. They're amazing. The artwork and everything is so cool. They're really fun to look at. And so you can look at what they did and you can see what still stands the test of time, of what still works today when it comes to a headline and a lead and so on.

[Russell Brunson]

So he was nerdy. Last night I bought 15 ads on eBay from LaSalle University because LaSalle Extension Universities, where Napoleon Hill used to work for anyway. But I started finding their ads and like, their long form ads promoting like them because you could do an extension school, become a lawyer, or become business operator. All these different ones, but I'll just show them to you. But like 15. Each one's about 10 bucks. But it's a long form advertorial. All selling LaSalle University. But different hooks they had. And they were beautiful. All of them had like rock solid headlines, really cool imagery, cool call to action. Like, they were just. Anyway, so this is what Heath and I do in our nerd time is we just buy old magazines and ads just to look at them.

[Heath]

I think what's funny is when I talk to my other copywriting friends and other people in the marketing, people don't also. I'm like, you know, Russell is probably one of the nerdiest when it comes to copywriting. People don't.

[Russell Brunson]

That's.

[Heath]

They think he was a funnel guy. But I'm like, I've seen Russell's collection. He has like some rare stuff that I'm like, holy smokes, you have, you know, just. I couldn't believe some of the things that I've, you know, poked around back here. What, your collection. And so people forget, like, you have your own copywriting chops too. You just don't want to do it all the time. That's why you have me. It's like, it's like you're. You're excellent in your own right.

[Russell Brunson]

Well, it's funny because, like, when I. When I got in this business, I was learning all the pieces and copywriting was the one. I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, that was the worst. But it's also the most expensive. I remember, like, the first time I tried to hire a copywriter, it was Michael Ford, and he wanted 15 grand. I was like, what? I'm like, that freaked me out. And then first time I hired someone's Johan Mok, I paid him eight grand and we never launched a product, but it's like 8,000. It was like all money I had. And finally I was like, I can't afford copyright, so I have to learn this. It forced me to learn the skill set. But it's funny because for me, it's like copywriting. It isn't just the words on the page. Copywriting is everything. Eventually when you get better and better. Copywriting, like the perfect webinar is just me copywriting. Like, it's literally. It's a sales structure in Place that I do off top my head. But I know the structure so well. You know, emails are copywriting like Facebook Live, like podcasts, like every time you're speaking, like as you get better, you start weaving copywriting into it. And so yeah, like I've become a good copywriter because I had to, but also it's like now it becomes like second nature where like you're always persuading somebody to do something, right? Right now you guys are listening and we're entertaining you, but also trying to persuade you to listen to the next thing and hopefully go check out selling online.com because you'll learn how to sell more and whatever the next thing is. Right? But like that's why this is such an important skill to master. I think it's one of the tragedies that a lot of people have is now they're leveraging AI for copywriting, which I don't think necessarily bad, but by doing that they're missing learning the skill set which is the most, I think of all the skill sets I've learned in the business world, it's the most important, the most. It is the most expensive to hire out because it's the most valuable. But like they may get a good sales VSL done on ChatGPT, that works. But then they're gonna go on a podcast or a Facebook Live or whatever trying to promote the thing and they don't have any of the chops of how to do persuasion and copywriting because they got, they had Chad GPT write a version for me. You know what I mean?

[Heath]

Absolutely. I like that you brought that up. There's so many things that you touched on that I want to mention. I think what we lack in the AI, don't get me wrong, I know a handful of these copywriting guys that I respect and are friends with and they're doing masterful things with AI for sure. I don't have interest in that because I also, I think what people, copywriters, what they're. If they're just using AI just for, just for the copywriting, you're missing out on their lived in experience. It's that lived experience because I think when I think of copywriting, what you talked about, persuading, it's getting to know people, it's getting to know their background, getting to know who they are. So you can actually you're just channeling the desire onto your offer, whatever it is. And so when you're writing, you're able to tap into your unconscious just by writing, even though you have a structure of what to do for the copywriting. But you also have your own unique, lived in experience that you can't. You can't just outsource that to an AI and try to dump your own childhood and everything, your own story into AI for it, then conjure up. Because there's been a lot of times, you know, even with you, we go back and forth and then you have. That's why I always say I need a Russell rant. Because like when I'm doing a new sales that or whatever it is that we're doing, I always have you. Wherever you're at in the world, send me over a vox. Because I don't know where your brain is at. I know that you're lived in experience. Can. All of a sudden you had an experience that day that I didn't know about. But because of that experience, then there's that hook.

[Russell Brunson]

The hook, the lead, that interest story, all the pieces.

[Heath]

Yeah. And then you like. And then that's why I say, okay, where's your brain at? And so you. We did. We've done this for so many of our products, for so many of the offers with Dan Kennedy and our own products. And so sure enough, I'll get a Russell rant, a good three minute WrestleMania. And it helps me tremendously because then I go, great. And then it also will trigger something. I'm like, you know what? That's awesome. That. That connection. I just now made a connection from what you said to what I just experienced at the gym or something like that that made me realize this can be a really good hook, this really good angle. And so I. Yeah, I think AI obviously it's there, it's here. And we're trying to figure out what's. How to best utilize it. That works for us. But I. I also don't want it to take away the thing that I love. The thing that I know is heath. That's what I am. I'm a writer. This is what I do. And so for it to outsource it, I. That's where you still need to be artistically satisfied and fulfilled and. Or just fulfilled in what you're doing rather than. Because then it just. How is it fun to just pull levers? That's what it comes down to with an AI. If I just get these cool prompts, it's just me pulling a lever, just putting in the right prompts for it. And it just. Yeah, it just doesn't.

[Russell Brunson]

You're a purist like me. I understand.

[Heath]

Yeah. I mean, I still Utilize it for sure. There's been a time where, you know, how do they. I'll ask it questions and help me. Honestly, it's the fastest when it comes to citing sources, when I'm just like, take this, take this and now put in an MLA format and give me a cite source and things like that. Or help me with research or also it'll help me with a springboard. I'm like, just give me 10 ideas based around this just to kind of get my brain moving rather than just have I don't have it right for me. No, no, no. Or any of that. But it's more of a. Yeah. Idea generator for sure.

[Russell Brunson]

That's like I've been, I've never was big. I. Until just last man, like two weeks, I've been playing with a lot and I was like, like we were talking about idea generation. So like for me, I have a million swipe files on a thing like book funnels or webinar funnels or whatever, right? So what I've been doing, actually I started running a report off to get you a copy of it. But I links like every Agora front end I could find like that are like free plus shipping books or things like that, right. So I was like, look at all these book funnels that Agora's publishing. And then like, tell me like, like analyze them, come back and tell me like, what's the same atom, what's different? What are you noticing? What are the headlines? What are this, you know, and then it'll come back and it'll give you all that data where it's like, okay, they're using one of six different headline structures. Like, oh, cool, we should split test all six of those, you know, and oh, the all these led with a story about this or you know, three or this three. But it gives you all the analytics and then at least no gives, at least for me, gives me idea like what I could write or where I should be able to write about things like that.

[Heath]

100%.

[Russell Brunson]

Which makes it more fun.

[Heath]

100%. Because I also like, obviously I'm a purist when it comes to the writing and bringing it unconscious. But I also know what marketing takes. And we all love data. We're always going off data. We always want to know. We don't want to reinvent the wheel. We want to know what's working. That's why we funnel hack and that's why you know, this. If this has worked, then let's continue to have it work. And then we work upon that and make the variations and all the split tests from there. But absolutely yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

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[Russell Brunson]

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[Heath]

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[Russell Brunson]

So I want to talk about the first project we did together because it's a lot of fun and then we'll probably end the episode. So the very first project he came in on because he was doing a bunch of E Comm stuff at the time and I had just bought a green drink company called Zuma Juice and it was the first time we had a chance to work together. And so anyway, it's probably the most fun I've had because usually I either write copy of my own or I outsource parts of copywriters. And it's always been anyway there's been, you know, good times and bad times with that, but it was the first time like just working with you on a project. And our style is very similar, which I love. So the first thing we did, if you remember this, we sep a trello board and the first thing was like let's go funnel hack every single thing we can find around this. We found every green drink product we could find and then went and bought. Everyone took screenshots of. Here's the first page. Second upsell down like that, every single green drink. And then we found other E Com products that were similar, other, other supplements that we funnel hack those. And so we build a trello board with, I don't even know, probably 30, 40 funnels. We had funnel hacked along with like emails and ads and things like that. And then we bought the brand from somebody else. You remember we bought from Luke Jaden and we got a call with him and it was fun watching you because the questions you were asking were so interesting because I've only written a copy for myself, I've never done it for other people. So I always have a lens on just writing to the people I know how to write for where you Were coming into a whole different world. And it was fascinating watching you. I don't know if you remember this, but you interview Luke for like an hour on the. The tone of the brand. Do you remember this? Like, how do you talk to all that kind of stuff? And I want to go a little deeper there because, number one, first off, step. Step number one, guys, everyone, funnel hack was step number two. Like, we were doing the funnel hacking. It's not just in copy. And as most people do, like, what he did next, it was interesting, was like, figuring out the voice or not the voice of the tone of the brand. Like, how does it communicate? How does it do stuff like that, which I never thought of. I'd love you to talk about just your thought on that part of it.

[Heath]

Oh, yeah. I'm a big believer of getting closest to the person who is creating the product, that understands the product, that knows it in and out and has been working with it. So obviously, Luke. And then I also did this. I worked closely also with Trey Llewellyn, who, you know, friends and E. Common. So I would get on the. When I would work with Trey, I would also call up his customers. I would, you know, talk to a few customers and why they buy so many of this and actually get to know them, understand why they're buying it for. And. And so I always. I'm a big. That's part of the copywriting is the sales is just talking to people. And the biggest thing is I just ask questions, then I sit back and listen. So I just. Was just listening to what. How Luke and he was, you know, had so much passion behind it. He loved. He. I mean, he loved this drink that he created. And so I wanted to know. Yeah, how did he approach it? Because he was. And the tone was a really important thing because that is a. I mean, that's part of the whole branding is how the. How to stand on the marketplace with that specific tone. And so when it comes to the tone and also who you're going for and how that tone is touching that person. Because when it comes to different groups of people, how you talk to them and how you. You're not going to talk to, you know, busy moms and say, when you're gonna talk to a bunch of masculine, hardcore guys, like, there's a different way to approach the brand. And so I would just. My biggest thing is I would just ask Luke questions, and then he would talk about. And I go, tell me more about that. And I would just. And then let him. And I just listen And I take notes because a big thing is just copy. I always say it comes from Kim. I'm gonna ruin her name. I'm so sorry. Kim. Kim Schwam. She's an amazing a list copywriter. Been around for a long, long time. And she, I love the phrase she used copy collecting. And I really think that about that. I don't think it's copywriting. I think it's copy collecting. So I'm just collecting the things that Luke is telling me and like, oh. And I just make notes and so there was a lot of fun tone. What I got from the Greens jeans at the time, the Zuma juice was. It was a lot of fun. This was a greens juice that was really, really fun because at the time it was like hardcore like the greens and you know, it's, it's for your health. And everything was so. Just organic and everything so base for your health. It felt very. Just not a fun way approaching it. And so Luke wanted to do this like, you know, the Greens drinks that kicks your butt and it, it's really. He used fun language around it about, you know, giving you a kick butt energy. And he liked the fun part of it. So like. And that also went to show because in the video he first created was really, really fun. It had that early Harmon Brothers feel that he really liked. And so there was obviously he wanted to approach a bigger market to show that greens gene Greens drink doesn't have to be an expensive, just really high, high, you know, high priced and health food, health food that is only for a very specific audience. That only goes to whole foods. He wanted to make it be like, no, this is actually for everyone and it's good for you and it's so easy. He wanted, he wanted that angle of it like you can put in your greens very easily. So that was. Yeah, my biggest secret is just, just asking more questions. I just interview the person. Then I and I just write down notes and then they kind of write the copy for me. To be honest, it's 5 or Kaitlyn.

[Russell Brunson]

Poland asked her one day because she was. When she ran Lady Boss, she was writing all the copy and stuff. And she said, I stopped writing copy. So what I started doing, I go to my community and Facebook and I ask questions. I would just listen to the ladies respond. I literally use their phrases like the things they would say to respond to my messages. Like that was the copy. Like they said it the way that it sounded to them. And so I just copied that and set it back. And so in our company, you Get a chance to write for me. Sometimes for Dan Kennedy, sometimes for Barnum. Pt. You're learning a whole bunch of different. Do you get schizophrenia ever switching from voiceover?

[Heath]

It's a little different when I go from you to Dan Kennedy. I cut out all exclamation points. All exclamation points. And then I structure it.

[Russell Brunson]

Big blocky blocks.

[Heath]

Big blocky blocks. Because he older kind of traditional style writing, almost like journal, kind of like style a little different compared to how direct response, marketing and copywriting has changed over the years. And so. And with yours. Yeah. And then with Barnumpt, I get to play with voice, of course, and then different ones, so. But I got used to that again. That's like the improv background. Then what I first started with the E. Comm company. I One day, I remember. I remember I had to write this whole line of. Was it baby? It was like baby products. Like, different soft. It was like, lotions and different products for, like, a newborn up to, like, two years. And then after that was done, like, the next thing was. No kidding. There was this brand at the time called Enraged. It was Enraged Nutrition, and it had the most aggressive, like, scary names that you would. I don't think you can let fly today. Like, they're the most aggressive names. So I had to then change the tone and go from, like, just hardcore, put on a different. It's like putting on a different alter ego, a different Persona while you write.

[Russell Brunson]

So awesome.

[Heath]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

Oh, man. All right, last question for you, and we'll wrap the podcast for today. And thank you for doing. This is a lot of fun.

[Heath]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

For someone out there. Because a lot of people in our world are trying to learn this business game, and there's so many pieces, right. There's copyright, there's funnel building, there's traffic, there's. There's so many different things initially, like, the best way to make money at first, I think, is learning one skill set, and then you go in and doing that as a service for other people.

[Heath]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

And I think if someone wants to learn copywriting, it's a. Obviously there's work to learn it, but it's also one of those valuable skills. Like, you pay good copyright, a lot of money. Like, for somebody just in that spot where they're not sure what their nip, they're thinking, maybe I should become a copyright. What's the path. How does it look to, like, go and actually start learning and getting a client? What's that first beginning part look like?

[Heath]

I would highly recommend there's a couple ways to do it. I would recommend getting with a company. It's gonna, you know, start off just learning, getting with. Getting an in house position with an E comm company and then starting off small, perhaps just starting with Facebook ads. Just getting with a company that, you know, you can work hard and they see that you're hungry and they want to get after it. Because then from there you're going to be able to learn the skills while also on their time, be able to. They're helping you, they're training you while also getting up to speed with what you want to do. I did, you know, I. That's kind of how I got started. They wanted me because I had a degree in writing. They knew I could write. I could write a sentence, I could write. I can be able to write a structure. Yeah. A structured argument and everything. And so they were like, okay, great, now we can use that. And then this is how we actually do things to make sure it sells. I would do that. And then also. And then from there, if you want to start making more money and getting your. And building your name. I was on upwork at the time. I never was on fiverr, but I was on upwork, man. And I took every position I could get. And then I started posting in groups and so different groups on Facebook about services and that's how I got connected with a lot of people that was really surprised. And also. And when you're doing these posts being yourself, don't try to be another copywriter of how they structure things. Really understand who you are and your personality. If you're funny, if you have a certain style about you, use that in your copywriting because that really makes you stand out with your personality. And business owners love that. They want to see that. So I would say, yeah. And then just, you're going to be putting in some grinding, but if you're enjoying it, then it's. It's fun. I mean, I, I mean back in the day, this is crazy. I don't know if I ever told you this. When I was like, I was just wanting to get out of this certain position and wanting to make it on my own. So when Clickfunnels was first, it was new. It's fairly new. And I remember one of my. The media buyer I was with at the time, I was working this with this company and I was doing. It was when Probiotics was the rage and I wrote this massive VSL and it was. I got to really get nitty gritty. And we printed off all the transcripts from all the Gundry VSLs and everything. And then he was showing me, he's like look at this new thing. And he showed me clickfunnels. He was like show me a site that he built. And I saw, remember the buttons all wiggling and everything. I was like what is all this? And then sure enough down the line I eventually was able to work with someone who had a clickfunnels account. And I would log into their account and I would be in my closet, I had a little desk set up in my closet. I'd be up until 2 in the morning and I would build a funnel just to see how to structure it and drop things in make a headline. I was like oh this is really easy. And then I would delete it because I didn't want him to find out that I was building funnels in this thing. And I was like I don't want him to find out. I'd build a whole funnel and be like oh this is really easy. I could do this and then I delete it. So I got really. So I would just find any opportunity. I mean I was doing descriptions for yarmulkes on upwork. At one point I was taking any job I can get and just a stack up and just to you know, a lot of times in the early days you're just wanting to feel more confident that you can do this, that you can be get after it and you're going to make a lot of mistakes and you're going to get clients that want to take advantage of you and you're going to have to figure things out and it's rough but it doesn't. I think if I were to do it again I would definitely get with an in house. Get with someone in house where you can know how to you some sort of, you're good at writing in some sort of capacity. Then they want to and then you're hungry because a lot of times I mean business just want someone that's hungry that stay with them and really know how they work and then build from there.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, yeah, that's cool. And if you're an entrepreneur who can't afford a copywriter yet, then the process is kind of similar other you're not doing work for other people but you got to write a lot for yourself. I got a spot where I was writing emails every day and I was writing sales letter. I just kept writing and writing and for me I wasn't good at writing so I would do is I would just, I'm Very much a modeler. So I look at like whoever. Like if I was launching, I remember launching my first software product. I went to ARM and Morin site and he was launching something similar. So I was funnel hacking. What did he do? Okay, he had headline, right? He had an intro story. I have an intro story. He had it. And I just like followed structure. I started VSL. So I would get the VSL's transcribed and then I would look at the whole thing and I would try to break out, okay, the first three lines, like this was a hook. Okay, boom, there's I need a hook. And the next five lines, they were leading with a story. And I just kind of like started. In fact, if you look at the.com Secrets book, when I wrote that, all the scripts I show in there literally came from me funnel hacking a dozen people with that same thing and then looking at similarities amongst all of them and then making my own videos based on that. That would work. And like, oh, there's the formula. Like I reverse engineered the formula from other people doing it. I didn't make it up. Just I kept seeing it over and over and over again. And so it's like, okay, I know the things I need to fill in to make a good VSL or to make a good webinar or make a good whatever the thing is you're trying to create.

[Heath]

I did that with email. So when I really cut my teeth in the direct response when I started going out on my own was with email. So I got really good at email and I was on Ben settles list and I bought it. I started buying slowly or got on his list and then I've been following him for years and years. So I then I would start to get on everyone's list just to get their emails and then I'd save them in different folders so I'd see what they're doing in email wise. So then I started slowly, you know, buying what you can afford. I was like, okay. And then I started buying. So I learned a lot for also from Ben Settle was a lot of the early, early stuff I started buying and then really soaking it in. And then I was like, oh, I can do this, I can do this. And yeah, sure enough, once you started seeing the pattern, that's when.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, yeah, the pattern. Basically the framework, your art on top of it and your personality and your. Anyway, so he. That was fun, man. I appreciate you coming and hanging out the office this weekend. Jumping on podcast. Any of you guys are aspiring copywriters? Want to learn copy that you got some great stuff, Heath, today. One last question. Avatorials. If someone wants to run an advertorial, they need to go Taboola or is there other platform? Do you even know?

[Heath]

Oh yeah, there's a lot. I mean there's, I mean Taboola, Taboola and Outbrain. It's been a bit since I've liked the actual inside of it when it comes to this part. But Taboola and Outbrain, you look at, you know, those are, those are the top ones because they're on the best kind of publications. You're going to get the better quality traffic. And then there's other ones that will run more because also it depends on what your offer you're running. So say for instance like CBD gummies and stuff, things where they're a little iffy that maybe were a little bit difficult for different publishers. But I mean there's so many. So Taboola and Outbrain are. Yeah, I mean there's so many people also to follow for when it comes to Native.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, I say advertorials. I'd almost step back and not do an advertorial. If you've got a niche specific business. Right. It's more for mass market because you're targeting like new sites where it's all the people not like, you know, Native.

[Heath]

Is definitely takes it from. It takes a more of a skill. There's definitely. You're gonna get a lot less clicks. The percentages are completely different compared to what you're used on Meta and with Instagram and Facebook. So you know, to start with Facebook and Instagram, much, much better because then you can they. That one, they just like you just. It's all about creative and you just turn on the switch and they just keep pumping it with creative until the algorithm finds its way. When it comes to Native, yeah, that's your. Yeah, different type, but it's absolutely worth it. But also with the advertorials, that doesn't mean you just have to go for native. Advertorials are absolutely being used on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, wherever it is. Google, I see them all the time because it's a great opportunity to bring in those cold traffic, give them an information and then send them on. And so. And also it helps you to. To whittle down your what's working. So a lot of times we'll do like split tests, multiple different avatorials and then we see okay, which one is actually getting the more clicks. Then drop the other ones and focus on that one. And then do split. So it's also a way to find what the market is actually really, really interested in.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah.

[Heath]

What they're. Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

Very cool. Awesome. Thank you, Heath. Appreciate it. Hope you guys enjoyed this episode. First time talking about copyright in a long, long time. And hopefully you guys got some ideas and some cool ways to get your copy game up. So appreciate you and we'll see you all on the next episode of the Russell Brunson show. Hey, this is Russell. I had a really cool offer for you right now. Shortly after we launched ClickFunnels, I remember asking some of our top two comma Club Award winners, what would they do if they had everything taken away from it? They lost their name, their brand, their email list, their traffic, everything. All they had was a clickfunnels account and Internet connection for 30 days. What would they do over the next 30 days to get back on top? I asked over 102 comma club winners and from that, 30 people wrote me back and gave me very detailed step by step battle plans. Day number one, they would do this. Day number two, they would do this. And by the time the 30 days was done, they'd be back on top of the very successful business. Do you want to know what these people wrote? If so, I took all these 30 battle plans and I put them inside of one book that you can get free at 30days.com. All you gotta do is go to 30days.com and go get a free copy of this book. We'll ship it out to you. Just cover the shipping, handling. And when you get it in the mailbox, you have a chance to go through and look at all of these detailed step by step blueprints. All you got to do is find one of these blueprints that you like, follow it step by step, and when you're done, you will have your own online business done and launched and live. So go get a free copy of one of my favorite books we've ever created at 30days.com. Again, that's 30days.com.