Jeremy Miner’s Secret to Selling Without Chasing or Convincing | #Sales - Ep. 50

Summary

Episode Summary: Jeremy Miner's Secret to Selling Without Chasing or Convincing | #Sales - Ep. 50

Podcast: The Russell Brunson Show
Host: Russell Brunson
Guest: Jeremy Miner
Release Date: July 7, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 50 of The Russell Brunson Show, host Russell Brunson engages in a compelling conversation with renowned sales expert Jeremy Miner. The discussion delves deep into Jeremy's unique approach to selling, his academic background in behavioral science and neuropsychology, and the development of his acclaimed sales methodology, NEPQ (Neuro-Emotional Persuasion Questioning). This episode offers invaluable insights for entrepreneurs, sales professionals, and anyone interested in mastering the art of communication and influence in business.

Background and Personal Insights

Behavioral Science and Religious Studies [01:46]:
Jeremy shares his academic journey, emphasizing his studies in behavioral science and neuropsychology, complemented by a minor in New Testament Christianity. His fascination with the human mind and the core beliefs shared across ancient religions laid the foundation for his understanding of human behavior in sales.

“There’s truth in everything. There are some things that might not be true, some things that are true, and we don’t know until after this life.” – Jeremy Miner [01:46]

Seven Levels of Heaven and Company Naming [03:03]:
Jeremy explains the significance of the number seven in ancient religious contexts, symbolizing perfection and divinity. This concept inspired the name of his company, Seventh Level, which represents the pinnacle of communication mastery.

“Seventh level is perfection in your communication skills.” – Jeremy Miner [04:41]

Transition from Sales to Training

Sales Career and Transition [07:09]:
With an 18-year career in sales across various industries, Jeremy was ranked among the top salespeople globally. His decision to retire from direct sales stemmed from reaching a cap in earnings, prompting him to leverage his expertise by founding a sales training company.

“I was ranked number three on Direct Selling Association rankings, out of 180+ million salespeople.” – Jeremy Miner [constant throughout sales career discussion]

Development of NEPQ [16:47]:
Jeremy discusses the creation of NEPQ, a unique sales framework that integrates his knowledge of neuropsychology and emotional connections. NEPQ focuses on understanding and addressing the emotional and psychological drivers behind a prospect's decision-making process.

“The E stands for emotion… To master influence at the highest level, you have to master how to emotionally connect with that other human being.” – Jeremy Miner [23:09]

Strategies and Methodologies

NEPQ Framework [16:55]:
Jeremy breaks down the NEPQ acronym:

• N: Neuro – Understanding the brain and nervous system.
• E: Emotion – Building an emotional connection.
• P: Persuasion – Framing offers to align with the prospect's needs.

“The P stands for persuasion. It’s how you frame the offer. That’s what separates you from everybody else.” – Jeremy Miner [21:46]

Adapting to Different Sales Environments [24:48]:
Transitioning from one-on-one sales to large-scale webinars required Jeremy to adapt his techniques. He emphasizes the importance of principles and patterns over rigid scripts, allowing for flexibility and responsiveness to diverse audiences.

“It's not necessarily the words, but how they say the words… How you ask the questions, your physiology.” – Jeremy Miner [21:59]

Business Growth and Marketing

Initial Challenges and Growth [23:09]:
Jeremy recounts the early days of his sales training business, highlighting the financial losses incurred while experimenting with webinars and ad campaigns. Persistence and strategic hiring of skilled marketers eventually led to profitability and growth.

“The first year, we did about 1.3 million in sales with three webinars, but we lost 600 grand.” – Jeremy Miner [24:01]

Marketing Strategies and Team Building [28:37]:
Jeremy outlines his multifaceted marketing approach, combining organic and paid strategies. He credits his success to assembling a competent marketing team and continuously refining his methods based on psychological principles.

“We have marketing teams doing media buying, and I stay in my lane, focusing on communication and training.” – Jeremy Miner [29:52]

Community and Client Engagement

Client Programs and Training [30:16]:
Jeremy describes the structure of his client's journey, from purchasing foundational courses to engaging in advanced training sessions. He emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and adaptation to maintain sales efficacy.

“If I'm not constantly training, I'm losing skills.” – Jeremy Miner [31:50]

Events and Workshops [36:16]:
The episode covers Jeremy’s use of events and challenges to engage prospects and clients, demonstrating his commitment to providing value through interactive and paid workshops that funnel participants into deeper training programs.

“We host paid workshops where participants pay to attend and engage with our training, fostering a committed community.” – Jeremy Miner [36:21]

Key Takeaways

1. Emotional Connection is Crucial: Effective selling hinges on understanding and addressing the emotional drivers of buyers.
2. Adaptability in Sales: Transitioning between different sales environments requires flexibility and adherence to core psychological principles.
3. Continuous Learning: Mastery in sales and communication demands ongoing education and adaptation to new methods and insights.
4. Strategic Marketing: Building a successful sales training business involves a blend of organic and paid marketing strategies, supported by a skilled team.
5. Community Building: Engaging clients through events and workshops fosters a loyal and motivated community, driving sustained business growth.

Notable Quotes

• “Everyone's in sales. It doesn't matter what you do. You're selling something.” – Jeremy Miner [06:04]
• “Use your car time to listen to sales training. It’s about consistency.” – Jeremy Miner [36:16]
• “If you’re not constantly training, you’re losing skills.” – Jeremy Miner [31:50]

Conclusion

This episode of The Russell Brunson Show offers a deep dive into Jeremy Miner's innovative approach to sales through NEPQ. By integrating behavioral science and neuropsychology, Jeremy provides a framework that transcends traditional sales techniques, emphasizing emotional intelligence and continuous improvement. Entrepreneurs and sales professionals alike can draw valuable lessons from Jeremy's experiences and methodologies to enhance their own sales strategies and business growth.

For listeners interested in implementing NEPQ and learning more about Jeremy Miner's training programs, he can be contacted directly via text at 480-637-2944.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[B]

Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers.

[A]

Who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

[B]

Potential savings will vary.

[A]

Not available in all states or situations. This is the Russell Brunson Show. What's up, everybody? It's Russell. Welcome back to my show. And I'm here today. We're not in Phoenix. Where are we at?

[B]

We are in North Scottsdale. There's a difference between North Scottsdale and, like, Scottsdale? Yeah.

[A]

What's the difference? I don't even know.

[B]

Too much to explain.

[A]

It's funny because, like, in my mind, there's Arizona and it's like, there's all these places, but I fly one place here. I never know which city I'm in. And it's all this place.

[B]

I think there's like 5 or 6 million people. It's like, scattered, you know, there's not like huge skyscrapers, but it like, takes hours to go anywhere, to see everything. Just. It's all over the place.

[A]

Well, that's where we're at right now. And I'm here with Jeremy Minor, which I'm excited for. We just finished a podcast a few minutes ago. I was on his podcast and now he's gonna be here on mine. And I'm excited because I probably have different questions for you than most people have. Obviously, we have a very similar religious background, but we look at things differently. You're very much like. And hopefully you'll tell us kind of your background, but, like, you are hardcore. It's like the history of religions and things like that. I think that was part of your schooling. So I'd love you to tell some of the background of that and then at the end of it, explain your company name, seventh level. Because I did not know this was tied to anything until I heard you say something on a random podcast once. And it blew my mind.

[B]

Like, why is it A level?

[A]

And it's very fascinating. So, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So I went to school. So I went to school for behavioral science. Was going to become a psychologist, and my minor was in New Testament Christianity. So going to school at uvu. So study New Testament Christianity, which was fascinated about. I was always fascinated about the mind and, like, why do people do the things they do? Like, why do they have these beliefs? Right. I'm always very, very. I always believe there's truth in everything. Right. There's also some things that might not Be true. There's some things that are true, and I don't think we all know until after this life. But that's just my opinion. And so in pretty much every religion. So I'm talking about like, ancient Christianity before, like, the rise of Roman Catholicism, like in the. Probably the fourth century. I'm talking about Islam the first few hundred years. I'm talking about Hinduism, Buddhism, like, not present day, but like ancient. I'm talking about even religions all the way back to, you know, the first recorded ones, maybe in Mesopotamia, all had a few core beliefs that pretty much every religion believes in today. And I find that fascinating. They've lasted like thousands of years. Now, one of those beliefs was that there was different levels of the afterlife, or heaven or whatever you want to call it. There wasn't just like two places, like a heaven or a hell, right? Like, it's kind of taught today. But there's this belief really in every religion that there were seven levels of.

[A]

Heaven, but every religion believes seven was the number.

[B]

This was like, you're talking about ancient Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism. You're talking about religions that I can pronounce back in Mesopotamia. You're talking about Islam, like ancient, like core, not like present day, because some of those have changed. There's just some that still believe in that. But there's seven levels of the afterlife. Okay. And in order for you to inherit where God. God dwelt at the, like the seventh level. Now, seven in typically, in most, most ancient civilizations, that number represents something that's divine. Does that make sense? So it represents perfection or divinity. Ancient times, I'm not sure if it represents that now. It just depends on who you. Who you read. But so that is where God dwelled on this seventh level of heaven. And in order for you to obtain what he has, you had to become, you had to follow him, you had to be good, you had to, you know, believe in Christ, all these type of things. In other religions, you kind of like. I don't describe it in a way like perfection was at the seventh level. So I'm like, okay, what do I name? Because in my mind, CIS trainings, it's not just, I don't do this to help people sell more. I do it to help people communicate better, if that makes sense. Because I believe that the world's problems really all stem from a lack of communication. You know, like, if you think about, like, any war that's fought, why was it fought? Lack of communication, right? So anything stems back to that. So in my mind, I'm like, Communication has to be perfected. So that's where I came up with seventh level. Seventh level is perfection, you know, in your communication skills. That's where I came up with that. Interesting. Yeah. And hardly anybody ever asked me that. Yeah, a few people have asked me that. Not very many.

[A]

They just assume it's like, oh, it must be like the seventh level of.

[B]

The level building tool or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So fascinating.

[B]

A competitor might come out with the 8th level. I don't know. You know, we're the 8th level.

[A]

There is no 8th level.

[B]

There is no eighth level. There's only seven. When did it.

[A]

When do you know?

[B]

When in.

[A]

In history, they. The face started shifting away from. From levels into, you know, what most people believe nowadays.

[B]

I, you know, I, I would, I would. It just depends. Like, you know, I mean, if, you know, you probably know quite a bit about ancient Christianity, the, you know, the doctrine of the Trinity, where it stemmed from and what ancient. What earliest Christians believe, like from, let's say, 33 AD to maybe 325 AD kind of shifted, you know, prayers for the Dead, like, just different things kind of shifted as. As people had just different beliefs and different agendas. Yeah, I mean, we could really go into, like, the writings of Plato inspired the Christian metaphysical godhead, but, you know, you guys would get bored.

[A]

Is this the marketing sales podcast or are we talking?

[B]

I just geek out on this. So this is what I do in my spare time. I study, like, world religions and I study World War II history. Just random. If you know me, I. I know everything about. About those topics pretty much. Yeah. If you ask me anything outside of that, I'm like, I know nothing. Yeah, I can't change the oil in my car, so.

[A]

Cool. Does your company know? Like, did most people inside your company, you guys talk about that as a thing? Is there more? Just, like, you create a company, that's kind of what it is.

[B]

Most of it. Most of them know. Yeah, most of them. I mean, our mission is to change the way sales is perceived in society. One salesperson, one person, one company at a time. I believe everybody's in sales. It doesn't matter what you do. You're selling something. You're, you know, if you're a school teacher that, you know, trying to convince your kids to do their homework, you're trying to persuade, influence, you're trying to move them. If you're an attorney trying to convince a judge your client's in it, you're trying to persuade, influence, convince. If you're a politician trying to get People to vote for you, trying to. Everything is in sales. If you're a parent trying to get your kids to behave, go to bed at night. Persuading, influencing, like, everything is sales. And until we all start to understand that our communication skills can literally shape our destiny, it's hard to get where we want to go. You know, it just. It just is. Like, if you were on a webinar and you didn't know 70. You know, 80% of what you know, you know, where would your company be now? Yeah. How many lives would you not have impacted? But it's because of your commitment to mastery of, like, learning those skills to help people that has. Has helped you get to where you're at. And by doing that, it helps other people get where they want. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So cool. So in school, you study psychology, that we said psychology.

[B]

And then mainly neuro. I specialize in neuropsychology. Just, like, the study of how the brain works in conjunction with your nervous system. Oh, okay. Yeah. Weird stuff.

[A]

How much of that then translates into what you're doing today, teaching sales? Like, is it.

[B]

Well, it's everything you've heard of, like, fight or flight mode? Well, fight or flight mode is a reaction by your nervous system. Right. So I had to learn this the hard way. So when I got into sales, I was going in my senior year at uvu, and, you know, I get this job selling home security systems door to door because I got married and had my first daughter on the way. Cami is back there somewhere. Yes. Long time ago. And I just viewed sales different. Like, I viewed it differently because most we get back in the van at night, and most says we're like, oh, this neighborhood sucks. Like, people are so mean. Like, they're all broke. But I never viewed it that way. Like, if somebody. Like, in the first couple months, I was trying to figure it out, if somebody slammed the door in my face, I'm like, oh, what did I say? Or what did I not ask? That triggered that reaction in their nervous system. Like, this is weird stuff. I'm like, what did I do there that triggered them to react that way? Like, I triggered something in them. I triggered sickness resistance. Instead of complaining, I'm like, going through, like, oh, I think, you know, because, you know, I'm talking too fast. I'm making them nervous. I need to slow down my tone. Oh, this person's a little bit older. I need to soften my tone. You know? So, like, gradually, I took what I was learning in school, which doesn't really. It's not like they're direct correlation. Direct. They're not like, hey, you know when you say this in this tone, but I studied patterns, right? Principles and patterns. And I took those patterns from like Sigmund Freud. People do who they believe they are. I'm like, okay, people do they believe they are. So these people believe they're this. How do I change their identity into this? And so that's where NPQ was developed. It took a while, you know, and still being developed. Yeah, that's the fascinating thing.

[A]

Do you study? So I love Freud, but I studied Bernays very heavily. Who is Freud's nephew who kind of started, you know, propaganda, pr, everything. Do you study?

[B]

I haven't Freud a lot, but we studied a lot of Milton Erickson because I was going to be a child psychologist. So you're talking about Milton Erickson. Milton Erickson. Patterns and principles and different things. Yeah, you.

[A]

I was just Bernays because he's he, because he took Freud. He was Freud's nephew. Who took all of Freud's information.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then used it to like move masses to get people to change their beliefs on, on the war and to buy cigarettes and all sorts of stuff. And so that's the lens I look.

[B]

Like, oh, that was World War I. Right. World War I where he got started like after World War I because all men smoked but no women smoked. So they started the commercials where like women, you know, women that are independent and women that work like smoke.

[A]

And it became his torch of freedom. And like all these.

[B]

Yeah, he started to shift the identity of like, oh, you know, if I'm a woman. Right. You thought like, I'm a stay at home mom. I'm only, I cannot smoke. I'm not like these guys to like, I'm independent now. I need to show them I'm boss. I need to smoke. So he's shifting identities. Yeah.

[A]

As you follow, if you guys haven't read the book propaganda, it's. It's amazing. But he goes through all these different businesses like, like breakfast, for example. Like breakfast is not a thing that people ever had back then. And then people saw what he did with cigarettes and they hired him to we need people eating breakfast. And so he's like, well, how do I do this? So the first thing he's like, well, if I just tell him to eat breakfast, no one's gonna believe me. So he's like, he went and found all these doctors and scientists to say like, oh, you need to have breakfast. The breakfast is the most important meal. Then took that Built a propaganda campaign, blew it up and now we eat breakfast. And it was all because of this one dude who was nephew of Freud. And then what's fascinating is the book propaganda. It got a bad. People like the word propaganda. So then he changed the phrasing. He's like propaganda and pr. Yeah, it's like the neutral engag. The cool story.

[B]

It's like the, you know, the, the IRS used to not be called the irs. You know, it used to be called the internal tax service. But that sounds kind of bad. So. But revenue sounds better. Revenue service. Like see the neutral languaging, it's the identities. So it's fascinating because, you know, identity framing that we, that we talk about, like it can be used for good or evil. Like you talk about, you know, World War II, like the Nazis, how Goebbels used it to like literally change the identity of a nation to hate certain people where before it was maybe a little bit of the population. But how do they get, you know, because how do they get 50 plus percent to change their identity into that? So when you learn this type of stuff, you really have to take great care of it because you can use it.

[A]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

Cause that's what I go, this funnel sucks. This guy needs to. He's like the analyzer of funnels. He's dramatic. Oh, I don't want to show Russell the funnel. Like, he's gonna make fun of it. He's gonna say, you know.

[A]

But prior to that, you told me later, like, I didn't realize this, but a lot of people get in the sales business cause they think there's good money in it. You were actually one of the best salespeople ever. Like, do you wanna brag about yourself?

[B]

For sure. My grandma told me.

[A]

Yeah, but legitimately, like, you showed me some of the stats and the numbers. Like, I want to make sure my people understand like that you weren't just.

[B]

Some guy I was ranked, wanted to sell. Yeah. Like direct selling association ranks salespeople. You have to prove it. So it's, you know, I always say, like, everybody's numbers typically go down if the IRS knows. It's interesting compared to the IRS doesn't know. But you have to prove it. You have to send in like if you're a W2 salesperson or a 1099, you have to send in statements to show and they actually call and confirm with the company that you work for. So I was ranked number three. 40. I think it's 45 in the world. It's a long time ago. 45 in the world from like 2010 to 2018, based on what I was making per year as a salesperson. This is out of like 180 some million salespeople in any industry selling anything. So. But I was always like, okay, these 44 people above me, I'm still, there's still stuff I have to learn. That's what was always drove me, you know, and some of it is your industry you're in. Like, there was like the industries I in. Like eventually, like I capped out everything. And that's why I would leave because I'm like, like, even if I sell three times more, I can't, I can't make more. Like, I'm capped. There's nothing I can do. Yeah. So yeah, it was, it was a, it was a fun run, but it taught me a lot. Like I've sold in four different industries. Two business to consumer, 2B, 2B. And so even after like I had an 18 year sales career before I retired, even when I retired and then like a year later I'm like, okay, I'm going to start the sales training company, I still was like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, I don't. Like, you know, I was at the top of my game for all these other industries. But like this because I didn't even label it in EPQ then I was just like, had all these different types of questions that I had and it was like, you know, I didn't have really labeled it, I knew what it was. But I'm like, how do I duplicate in this in every industry? You know, so there's always that question when you do something. There's always that little doubt. And I think that is good to have a little bit of a doubt because I think doubt in my mind always drives change because I'm always like, I'm looking for the person behind me, like over the shoulder. Like, I really love Tom Brady's story. You've watched his documentary. No, it, it, it'll change your life. But he always talks about like he's, he was always looking for the next guy up. He was like, I might have a bad practice or a bad week or bad game. I'm looking at the guy behind me that's about to take my job. And that drove him, like literally drove him to keep learning more than everybody else. And that's why he stayed at the top. And a lot of people get complacent, you see. And you see that in business too. You see a lot of business owners that get complacent eventually and then eventually they get left behind. But it's the ones that like, are always like, have that little doubt, little seed. Like, you know, like somebody's coming for me. So I've always got to keep getting better. Yeah, I think that's the key. I think, I think it's good to have that.

[A]

So when you did, you did transition to the sales training, coaching, you started doing everything that. I think one of the really smart things you did. And I talk about this people all the time is like, when you're teaching a thing, you don't want to look like everything else. And again, I don't know the story behind this, but you definitely created something. You created a framework, you named it, it became yours. It was like, you know, this thing that was different. So like in my feed, I follow.

[B]

All the people, new model of selling.

[A]

Yeah, it pops out. And I was like, what is nepq?

[B]

I'm like, what is. Like, what is it?

[A]

Like? It was a unique framework with a different name and everything. And I love, like, how'd you develop that? Why did you develop it? Like, what was the.

[B]

I sit down. I was like, okay, I have to have like a framework or methodology, you know. And this was. I think this is even before. This is like 2018. I don't even know when we. Dude, the first year and a half was like a blur. Like we made some money and we spent more money. Like, like, it's just like what happened, you know, it took us like a year and a half to figure it out. But setting down, I'm like, okay, what I'm going to name this. Okay, so went to school for neuropsychology. Going to become a psychologist. So neuro, that's where neuro comes from. Neuro stands for brain. How it works in conjunction with the nervous system. So there's the n E emotional. So like I always say, and, and I love Tony and I. I love to just go to the events because like I'm all geeking out. I'm like. So everybody's like crying, laughing and jumping. I'm like, man, that was a really good D frame. Did you see how he lowered his tone there? Like, like, did you see like the, the audience just change? And then that song came on. Just. Everybody cried like, brilliant. Like, that's how I'm going. Like, I'm, I'm looking. I'm like, I'm seeing the frames and the body language and stuff. You and I geek out. Yeah. But so anyway, so the E stands for emotion. So I always say, like, in order to master influence at the highest level, you have to master how to emotionally connect with that other human being or audience, whoever it is, where they feel that you're going there first. They feel like you understand them, their needs, their desires, their fears or wants, without buying into their story. Now, there's a key line here, because you can understand somebody and judge them, but if you judge somebody and they feel that it's unlikely they'll buy, most people, they feel like you're judging them. So you have to feel like they have to feel like you understand them and you're concerned about the consequences if they don't change. Not, oh, you don't have the money. Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, that doesn't help them. That would be me buying into their story. I have to get them to feel that I'm concerned. If this stays the same for them, the consequences. And a lot of that is to do with your physiology, your tonality shifting. That's why Tony doesn't talk in one monotone the entire time. Because nobody would know who Tony was if you talk like that. And so it's. That's where the E stands for emotional. It's that emotional connection. Okay. The P stands for persuasion. And I like to say self persuasion. So how do I frame the offer? Because this is. I was talking to. I don't know if you saw me. I was with Dan Henry at your event. This is like you. Have you had Dan on your show? Yeah, I love Dan. He's like, one of my favorites. I didn't really know. I'm like, dude, we're like. We're like brothers, man. Like, this is just fun. We're like, geeking out on deframing. Just like, who are these weirdos? But we're talking about, like, you know, everybody's solution looks the same. It's like everybody. Like, everybody thinks like, oh, well, if I just sell this, like, that's going to be all the. You know, we have this big Facebook group called Sales revolution. There's probably 180,000 salespeople in there. And, you know, every day there's new test boss. Boom, boom, boom. And people, the first question they ask, if they're not a client, oh, well, what industry are you in? Because they'll be like, you know, my sales have tripled. Or, I used to make this and now make this or whatever it is. If They're a salesperson. And the first question mostly, oh, what industry are you in now? Why are they asking that? Because their belief system is, it must be the industry. It's not me. Yeah. So if I go to that industry, maybe it'll be different. And then they go to that industry, and they. They're like, oh, there's other problems here. This market's saturated, too. Oh, my gosh. Like, you know, the amount of times I've heard salespeople say, you don't understand our. Our market saturated. I'm like, well, how many industries do you feel probably say that? Insurance saturated car. So everything saturated. Like, funnels saturated. Everybody's. Everything's chairs saturated. So, you know, so, like, anyway, so. So going. Going back here. So the. The p. It's. It's how you frame the offer. Okay. So, you know, Dan and I were. Dan were talking about, like, imagine two family picture frames. So imagine your. Your family picture frame. You got your kids there or your parents or whatever. It's on the. It's on the mantle. Okay. Same exact picture. But now you have to go buy two frames. The first frame you buy is, like, immaculate. It's like, you know, you got it from, like, Trump.com. you know, it's like, all gold. You know, if you've ever been to, like, Trump Towers gold, the chocolate bars are gold. You know, you're like, this guy likes gold. And so like, they just go like, the best picture frame in the world. And another frame, you go to the flea market, and it's like, got cobwebs in it. It's broken. It just. It looks cheap. It looks horrible. Same family picture. Which one are you getting? The one that's framed better. So your offer's somewhat important, but the main thing that will separate you from everybody else is how you frame the offer. That's it. And when you start to realize that how you frame what you're selling and that's going to determine they buy from you, not, like, everything will change because you'll start focusing less on the product and you'll start focusing on the results of why they're even buying something like that. And I think most sales people just. They don't understand that. I think they're starting to get there. Yeah, it's good.

[A]

I think most sales people, they follow script. You know, I think about that with you talk about getting back in the car to sales guys, the end day.

[B]

Oh, it's not working.

[A]

Neighbors are working. No one's thinking, like, the deeper strategies, like principles behind it. It's just like, oh, it didn't work for this thing. It's like, yeah, but like, why?

[B]

Yeah, because, like, look, in every sales organization, how does some. How do salespeople selling the same thing do the same prospects, same price points, using the same script? How do they get completely sold? It's because of. It's not necessarily the. The. The words, but it's how they say the words. It's how they ask the questions. It's their physiology. That's a big part of it. Now. The words do matter. You know, every book talks. You know, 93% is your nonverbal. 7% is your words. That's kind of a failed study. That's an old study. It's. It's actually a little bit more. About 30% is your words use in the things you ask. 60 some percent of it is just how you ask the questions. The tone. Right. And your body language and the cadence, how you pace out the question compared to asking it too fast. You know, there's so many. There's so many nuances there.

[A]

So cool. All right, I want to geek out on the marketing side of this. So you create an mpq. You're going out there spending the first year and a half spending more money than you're making.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the. The transition as far as, like, this is the offer. This is the funnel. This is the thing we created. This is the business model. Like, what is. What was the winning business model for you after you tried a bunch of things? So you're like, okay, we got it. Now we can start growing skills.

[B]

I think the first year was, like, 2019. I did three webinars. It was me and my assistant. That was it. So she was my assistant at my old job before I retired. I was like, hey, Beth, I'm starting this thing. Do you want to come be my assistant? She's like, I'm in. So it's me and Beth. And so, like, I think that's when we signed up for clickfunnels. I think she did that. Yeah. She saw something. ClickFunnels. Still remember 297. Like, what's ClickFunnels? And then we. We hired this marketing agency, you know, to run our traffic. And I didn't know anything about traffic, you know, or how that worked or how to write ad copy or anything. And they just started advertising. And I, you know, I had a little bit of. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna throw some money into this, you know? And I think we did three webinars. I Don't remember how many people we got on there, but those days are behind me. But that first year, I think we did about 1.3 million in sales, just three webinars, because I was still kind of like, retired, and I think we spent 1.9. So, you know, we just lost 600 grand. That was just coming off.

[A]

You didn't have a following at the point, right? That was just finance, man. People show up, then they're gone after nothing.

[B]

Nothing. No, no.

[A]

That's still pretty amazing, though.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and I didn't know, like, you know, how to. How to go from selling 1 to 1 or like 1 to 5 or 10 in a boardroom to then, like, how do I sell on a webinar where people. I'm not even in front of them. It was awkward for me, right? I had sold on the phone, and I was sold in the boardroom in front of people. But going to, like, now I've got, you know, 5,000 people on a webinar. I'm like, mumbling, bumbling. I was probably one of those people like, oh, God, that guy told his story too long. Horrible. But after the first couple times, you know, I learned quickly. I'm like, okay, that didn't work. I'm like, analyzing. I'm like, okay, that's sounded like crap. I'm curious.

[A]

I tell people all the time, like, there's a difference between one to one, selling one to many. You've done both. And what, what. What were the tweaks? Like, what were the changes you had to make to transition from. From.

[B]

Well, the biggest. The biggest thing is it's very easy to, like, if I'm on a zoom call or a phone call or in person with a person, how to basically, like, instead of. I mean, there's so many different things, but instead of, like, a lot of people, like, oh, you got to mirror the prospect. Well, I'm like, well, I. I'm going to teach you how to get them to mirror you. That's pretty easy. When you sell one to one, or maybe there's four people in a room when there's 3,000. Little bit different. Who am. I'm hearing everybody a little bit of a tweak there. You know, I can tell if I'm selling one to one, usually within the first, like, couple of things that they say, like how they feel loved like, or what fears they have. Like, this. This guy has a fear of significance that he's not significant because in the first 30 seconds, he said he went to Harvard and he Got his degree in this and I didn't even ask it him. So what's his fear? That he's going to be viewed as not significant or dumb. Right. So I, I can see that the patterns and the principles pretty quickly and adjust very quickly. But when you know you've got 15,000 people on a webinar, how do you do that? You know, they're in there, but how do you do that? So I had to start learning. It's just the principles, it's the patterns. And eventually, you know, I started learning patterns. And then I go hire people that we have sold on stage before because I want to learn from them. And then I'll take what I know with psychology and be like, oh, you know, the way they ask that question, that's a really good question. But they ask it way too fast. If they just slowed down and they went from like really playful tone there and then like lowered it into, I'm concerned for you, that would have landed better, you know, So I just. These little shifts like that. But I'm a huge believer in like just hiring people that already know how to do what you want to do and learn from them. And you just, the trick is you got to find the right people to do that. Because in the very beginning, that first year or two, I was just throwing money. I was just like, oh, you do.

[A]

Ads, 100 grand here.

[B]

Oh, you do a website. How much is it? 40 grand. Okay. Here, like just like throwing money. And that's, you know, that's why I spent, I lost like 600 grand the first year. Yeah. Then I'm like, okay, market agencies, maybe they don't work. Maybe we're going to figure this out, you know, and then I think the next year maybe we did a couple million more. We were like actually profitable.

[A]

And at that point were you pulling more people internally or you just find different agencies or what?

[B]

Yeah. And then, then like after the, after two years I'm like, okay, like I don't know how to really run this type of business because at a high level I've been a vice president of sales for a really big company in my corporate career and I was a chief sales officer for a really large company. But that's completely different than like you own the business and you have to hire the people and everything. It's like a startup. It's like you're talking about nine day difference. I was the chief sales officer, Company was already doing 400 million a year. Just different, you know. And so I just, I had to like I had to figure out, like, okay, I am. My strengths are here, My weaknesses are here. I'm not very good at this. I don't like this. So I need to find somebody that's really strong in this area. And that's when I started just finding people that would do that. I'm like, it's going to be way less expensive for me just to hire them and pay them to get the result that I want than me trying to figure out how to write ad copy. Yeah. Just things like that. Yeah. And then started. Things started to shift. You know, 2020, we started getting on the map. You know, we might have did maybe 4, 4 or 5 million, you know, which is not a ton. I look at it now, I'm like, oh, geez, you know, 2021, we doubled that. You know, we won the big $10 million award or whatever, you know. And then my first real was January 2022. I didn't even have an Instagram account before January 2022. I think one of my girls told me, like, you need to do these reels or something. I don't care. Yeah, you need to do these reels. I'm like, what's the real, you know, on IG? So started doing reels in January 2022. And then that's when. When we started, like, you know, getting out there. Because then we started retargeting the reels and, like, our ad spinks went way down. And I'm like, wow, this is really awesome, you know. Yeah. And so we just, you know, we're always trying to improve in that game, you know. Yeah. Build up the organic.

[A]

That's cool. With ads for my funnel nerds. I want to walk through the process. Right now you're doing organic paid. What's the breakdown and where the traffic's.

[B]

Coming from for your business right now? That would be a. I have no idea, people. But we. We have. Curtis doesn't like this term. It's called, you know, SLOs because he's like, that one is close to being SL, but it's liquidated.

[A]

We can't call almost self liquidity.

[B]

Almost self liquidating offer. Yeah, we're going to rename it. So we have several of those. We have the Navy black book questions. We have the insurance black book questions. That's our biggest industry. We train. So it's any type of insurance. Life insurance is our biggest final expense. Commercial property, casual. They just a bunch of homeowners. And then we have a new one called nbq Black Book of cold prospecting. Like cold calling. Right. So more for our B2B audience. And we generate, I don't know. I don't know how many buyer leads. I know the black book, the generic black book does like 10,000 plus buyer leads a month just. Just from that. That's not any affiliates. That's just us, Cold traffic. And then we have an outbound team. We also have, I think we have the things called the funnels. You know, I just don't look at them. I see some ads. I'm like, man, we've been running that ad for three years. It still works. Still works. There's like gazillion comments on there. I'm like, does anybody buy from that ad? Is anybody auditing that? But you can tell. I don't know.

[A]

This is the world I live in. I'm like, you don't know any of this information. This is the most important part.

[B]

This is. This is all the marketing people on our team, but we have some really good people that. That do that where Blake is our guy that does all of our media buying. Blake White's a good, good guy if you, if you know him. Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, I try to stay in my lane, man. Yeah, I just get on the. I get on the camera and say.

[A]

Say some stuff like, here's the script.

[B]

Read it out.

[A]

Yeah, so someone buys one of your SLOs at the beginning. What's the rest of the business on the backside look like?

[B]

Okay, let's buy the NPQ black book. Okay, so there's many different avenues. So let's say the buy NPQ black book. Then we have the. We have an outbound team. So we have about 55, 60 salespeople that could be off one or two, and probably at least half of those are on the outbound team. So they're calling all those black book buyers from any black book or. And we have another SLO called the Top 50 Objections Black Book or something. It's out there too. I don't know how much that generates. And so they call them. So might have a 10, 15 minute conversation about, you know, what they're looking. You know why they're looking to possibly learn how to sell more. Hey, crazy idea. We want to learn how to sell more. I don't know. Crazy. And then they'll book them in with one of our senior specialists, is what we call them, and they'll go over, like, different training options, you know, help build a gap, you know, from where they are, where they want to be. And then they'll go into. If they're a consumer, not a company, they'll go into like one of our main core three offers. We have any PQ Academy, it's what's called fundamentals. That's like a $4,000 offer. That's like a 51 hour course of, of me. You know, all recordings of different subjects for sales. And then they have like one training call a week which is a huge like group coaching call that I do. Okay, but you might have thousands of people on that one that's a four grand offer. And then we have one that's a ten grand offer where they get the portal 51 hour course and then they get more specialized training. So they might have another training call each week. I think in that, that program there's like nine or ten different training calls a week on different subjects. Advanced tonality, Objection. Prevention, deframing, identity framing.

[A]

You know, you teach those or you have trainers.

[B]

Trainers, yeah, trainers. I do one of those. That's it. In that program, that 10 grand. But that's a huge group call. There might be a thousand, two thousand people on there every week. And then we have trainers that do other calls. Okay, those are group training. And then we have what's called NEP or Inner Circle Mastery. Okay. And that's where I'm more involved. That's industry specific. So we have like, we pretty much train every industry at this point in all the subcategories. So let's say if you sold doors, right, Home improvement, okay. We probably have hundreds of home improvement scripts from the different companies we train, different salespeople. We train because the first three years we were savages, because I knew we were to do this and like me and the trainers like wrote out all these scripts from every industry and people didn't pay as much for them as they probably should. But now we have a bank of like thousands of industry specific scripts. So when they come in there, they'll go copy and paste one of those from their industry or one that's very similar. And then on those training calls we teach them patterns and principles on how to tweak it for basically what they sell. And I do two of those training calls per week. And I do it because I, I really like doing it. And, and, and for me, in my mind, like if I'm not constantly training, I'm losing skills. Does. Are you with me on that? Like, I can't just like I'm not going to do any more training. I'm just done. I'm retired. Like your brain's like My, I don't, you know, my brain cells would. Yeah, I have to keep learning. So we're always tweaking things. You know, we might have a client on there that sells, let's say, you know, I don't know, SAS or something. They sell an AI device that helps doctors, you know, you know, automate their notes instantly rather than manually doing it or whatever, you know, and we write this sales structure out for it. And they might have changed, like what I call problem awareness question. Just a little bit of a different. And they're like, oh, the way they change that. Because I'm teaching principles and patterns. I'm like, that was really good. We could take that same change and we can do that in, in this industry. This industry. I'm always, like, creative. Like, any PQ is always ever developing. And that's what I believe you have to be because, like, I, I believe when you commit to, to mastery, I believe you'd never master it in this life. Like, you're committed to mastery marketing. Would you say, like, I know there's nothing I can get better at. Like, you're always like, I study more now. What am I learning? Yeah, same way I'm like, searching for more. Always learning. I'm like, how do I tweak? How do I make this better? And I, and I think you have to be like that. I, I, unfortunately, I see a lot of our competitors that we've kind of blown by. They just, they didn't do that. They just, it got stale, you know, and we're talking some companies that have been around since, like, the 1970s that were the big boys that were now have flown way past because they just got st. And I'm never, I'm never gonna, I'm always looking over my shoulder. I'm always scared they're coming back, you know, so I'm always, like, looking, you know, So I always gotta, I always gotta stay in there, you know, my thing. People always ask me when I was in sales, like, how are you selling so much? I'm like, I don't know. I'm just out learning everybody else. There's no, like, secret sauce. Like, I just, I just put in more time learning this stuff than everybody else. Like, when I'm driving down the road, when I was in sales, even now, I'm not. Listen, I always make fun of Taylor Swift. I'm not listening to Taylor Swift. Like, how is this helping me sell more? Like, no offense, you know, maybe you have a cheat day on Saturdays, your music day, you know, where you Just listen to you just jam out, you know. But like in my mind, like, you know, Brian Tracy, first concept I ever learned in sales, University on wheels. I went to the seminar, this is like 2001 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Like, he's like, use your cars. University on wheels. I'm like, yes, literally, turn off the radio. All I did was listen. It's like sales CDs all the time. And you do that, man, I'm telling you, you do that. Just even if you did that an hour a day and people are like, oh, I don't have time. Well, what do you listen to when you drive to work? What do you listen to when you drive the chiropractor? What do you listen when you drive home? What do you listen to when you drop the kids off at soccer? What do you listen when you go back? What do you listen to? Iron your shirt. You have those earbud things. What do you listen when you eat breakfast? I mean, you don't have to get up at three in the morning to do this. Like, you can listen to 5 minutes here, 10 minutes here, 8 minutes here, and every day. If you do that consistent, consistently, that's at least an hour of learning. And you do that seven days a week, that's seven hours a week, that's 28 hours a month. That's 350 or whatever hours a year. And you do that for 23, 24 years. It's kind of really hard to suck at anything. Yeah. Because you just out learn everybody. But you have to say you have to stay, you're committed to mastery, you know. And to me, I just, I just like. It just. I don't know, I'm always like, especially selling from stage because it wasn't something I was used to. So now I'm like, I'm just like all. I'm just like mastering the deframing and the reframing. I'm like, okay, I gotta do this. It just, to me, it's like exciting to learn this stuff, you know, I just love it.

[A]

So cool. And then in your business you're also doing events and challenges, stuff like that. How does that fit into the core?

[B]

Yeah. So the Ascension model is, let's say that the salespeople can never get a hold of the person. Well then we have funnels that start to retarget them to get them to go to our challenges. We used to do challenges, the five day events like every three months. But we have marketing teams like getting burnt out all the time. And so we switched that to I think this year we're doing three. We've already done a couple of them. We have our next big one end of September. And so they get funneled to those events. And then every six weeks we do like a two day masterclass which is like two hours each day. And the CTA is simply to book a call with one of our specialists to learn about our industry specific training. But we get like 35, 40% on that, that book in a call. And so now we're automating. Like we just did a big insurance workshop where we had like, I don't know, five or six thousand people people on there. And it was a paid workshop. They all paid like 50 to 100 bucks just to be on, which I like the paid. The bigger ones, the big challenges, we do those for free with a vip. But these smaller sites, they're all paid and every six weeks we do that. So they might get funneled to that. If they don't book a call there or buy from there, they might get funneled to the next challenge. So they're always getting funneled to something is what we do something to reactivate them.

[A]

Re getting them fired up and then.

[B]

Push it back to the call again. Now we have a whole community that's being built out, a platform. I don't know all the details. It's our community manager. It's not the one Hermosi has. What's that cool school? It's, I think it's called disco or something, I can't remember. I don't know. It's. It's very. So I don't know all the details. But anyways. So some of our platforms are for consumers and then others are for companies. Now companies are different. They're not necessarily in those consumer programs because they need more attention. And so it's all customized at that point. Most of the companies we train probably pay like a monthly retainer of anywhere on the low end of 2,500 bucks to like NBC Golf Channel is one of our clients. And they probably pay us 15 grand a month. Okay. And they have access to our portal and they have like a sales trainer that does like two training calls a month for them and then they get on a huge group training call that I do with all companies where I teach something every month. So there's different things to do. And some of them pay for more. Some of them then pay for workshops in person, you know, and depending on the funding they have, it's either me or one of our trainers that are, that are doing that. So it's. Yeah. Businesses are a little bit different. Yeah. Very cool.

[A]

Well, thanks for sharing.

[B]

We're just trying to learn, man. Trying to learn from you.

[A]

Well, my. My funnel nerds on my side will love kind of hearing the behind the scenes of that kind of stuff.

[B]

I'm sure there's a lot more that I didn't. That I didn't go over or marketing people are going to get upset at me. Yeah.

[A]

Well, for all my people, where's the best slo for them to look at to get plugged into your world? The Black Book questions.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I don't even know the website to that. That's. That's how uninvolved. Anybody know the funnel? Anybody know the funnel? But I'd say just have them text me. Just have them text me. Okay.

[A]

They text you with.

[B]

What's the. What's the number? We changed the text number. Is it 480-637-2944? Yeah. Yeah. Have them text me at 480-637-2944. So me and a couple of our sales trainers lock herself in a room every here and there. We answer questions through text. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Well, there's not just me. It's other sales trainers. I wish I could answer every question. Sometimes there's like, you sure you want.

[A]

To give my people your cell phone.

[B]

Number coming in every hour? Yeah, but have them. Have them text us questions and we'll have them just text us on that number and just say, hey, I heard Russell, you know. Okay, can we get a link to the black book now? There's an investment. $27 for the black Book. I know, I know. If you need a GoFundMe page, just let us know.

[A]

If you can't afford this and you need it more.

[B]

But hey, there. I mean, look, I know your audience is smart. Yeah. They're entrepreneurs. And, you know, I love working with entrepreneurs, like your audience, because as an entrepreneur, they know that the biggest asset they have is their time. And once their time is gone, they can never. What? They can never get it back. So smart entrepreneurs, they know that investing in mentorship, coaching and those type of things and learning from others who have mastered things help them get to the next level. So, yeah, got some smart people. Yeah.

[A]

Very cool. Well, thanks, man, for let me come hang out and over here your side of the world and sharing all these really cool things.

[B]

Thanks for having me on, man.

[A]

Thanks for being here. Do you have a funnel? But it's not converting the problem. 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next selling online event by going to sellingonline.com podcast. That's sellingonline.com podcast.