Matt Gray & Russell Brunson: Rewiring Your Subconscious for Business Breakthroughs | #Marketing - Ep. 47

Summary

The Russell Brunson Show: Rewiring Your Subconscious for Business Breakthroughs | #Marketing - Ep. 47

Release Date: June 25, 2025

In this enlightening episode of The Russell Brunson Show, host Russell Brunson engages in a deep conversation with marketing expert Matt Gray about the pivotal role the subconscious mind plays in achieving business success. Together, they explore strategies to reprogram subconscious beliefs that can either hinder or propel entrepreneurial endeavors. This summary captures their key discussions, insights, and actionable strategies.

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1. Introduction to Subconscious Influence [00:58]

Russell Brunson kicks off the episode by highlighting the critical yet often overlooked role of the subconscious mind in business success. He posits that the subconscious can either serve as the main driver of success or the biggest obstacle to it.

Russell Brunson:
"What if I told you that the biggest bottleneck in your business isn't your strategy, it's your subconscious?"
[02:03]

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2. Historical Context: From Freud to Public Relations [03:00]

Matt Gray delves into the history of subconscious influence, tracing its roots from Freud's exploration of the unconscious mind to Edward Bernays' application of these concepts in mass persuasion and propaganda. This evolution laid the groundwork for modern marketing and public relations.

Matt Gray:
"Freud had a nephew named Edward Bernays. He was listening to Freud talk about stuff... He wrote a book called Propaganda, which is an insanely good book, taking Freud stuff but using it for mass persuasion."
[04:05]

Gray connects these historical insights to contemporary sales strategies, emphasizing how understanding subconscious beliefs can enhance persuasion in marketing.

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3. Subconscious vs. Conscious Mind [06:13]

The conversation transitions to differentiating between the conscious and subconscious mind. They discuss how the conscious mind operates through questions and logical decisions, while the subconscious mind is driven by internal stories and beliefs that significantly impact behavior and decision-making.

Matt Gray:
"I never thought about the subconscious belief and building it. That direction is fascinating."
[02:46]

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4. Rewriting Subconscious Narratives [07:37]

Russell emphasizes the importance of influencing the subconscious to shape marketing, content, and sales strategies. By understanding and rewriting the subconscious narratives of their audience, entrepreneurs can create more effective and resonant marketing campaigns.

Russell Brunson:
"We're going to show how your subconscious can influence things like your marketing, your content, your sales."
[02:32]

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5. Creating Content That Resonates Subconsciously [13:28]

Russell introduces practical tactics for aligning content with the subconscious desires and fears of the audience. One effective method he shares is conducting surveys with questions like:

1. "What's keeping you up at night right now?"
2. "If you were to wave a magic wand, what would you want my help with over the next year?"
3. "What is your biggest dream right now?"

Russell Brunson:
"Take those answers and use them as the backbone of your content strategy, solving those burning problems your audience faces."
[14:37]

This approach ensures that the content not only attracts but also deeply connects with the audience, addressing both conscious and subconscious needs.

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6. Innovative Strategies Inspired by Mel Robbins [16:40]

Matt Gray shares his inspiration from Mel Robbins, particularly her technique of creating catchy phrases to counteract limiting beliefs. He explains how crafting unique, memorable phrases can serve as triggers to overcome subconscious barriers.

Matt Gray:
"It's like Mel Robbins is taking psychological barriers and inserting catchy phrases that remind people to take action."
[17:56]

They discuss the success of such strategies, noting how phrases like "do it messy" can replace negative subconscious stories with empowering narratives.

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7. Balancing Art and Algorithm in Content Creation [27:34]

The duo explores the ongoing debate between creating authentic, artistic content versus optimizing for social media algorithms. They argue that while algorithms can drive visibility, maintaining authenticity and a unique brand voice is crucial for long-term success and meaningful audience engagement.

Russell Brunson:
"It's a battle as old as our time: Art versus algorithm."
[27:34]

Matt Gray:
"For me, the struggle is understanding how to align my authentic voice with what's required to satisfy the algorithm."
[27:56]

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8. Tools and Techniques for Audience Insights [25:38]

Both Russell and Matt highlight the importance of leveraging tools like Typeform surveys and AI platforms like ChatGPT to analyze audience data. By aggregating and interpreting this data, entrepreneurs can identify common subconscious beliefs and tailor their content accordingly.

Russell Brunson:
"Use tools like Typeform or ChatGPT to survey your audience and extract the top limiting beliefs or desires they have. Then, create content that directly addresses these insights."
[25:38]

Matt adds that integrating decades of content through AI analysis helps in uncovering patterns and generating new content ideas that resonate on a deeper level.

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9. Building a Repository of Stories [23:28]

Matt Gray recounts mentorship under Dan Kennedy, where he learned the importance of cataloging false beliefs and crafting corresponding stories to counteract them. This repository becomes an invaluable resource for creating persuasive content and sales copy.

Matt Gray:
"Dan Kennedy had us list out all the false beliefs our customers have and then write a story for each one. It's a long process, but it's incredibly valuable."
[22:05]

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10. Final Thoughts and Takeaways [31:05]

As the episode wraps up, Russell and Matt reiterate the significance of understanding and reprogramming subconscious beliefs to achieve business breakthroughs. They encourage entrepreneurs to focus on creating authentic content that speaks directly to the subconscious needs of their audience, thereby fostering deeper connections and higher conversion rates.

Russell Brunson:
"What matters a lot more is the signal of a piece of content versus just the views or likes. Authenticity and addressing real subconscious needs will attract the right audience."
[31:05]

Matt Gray:
"Starting content creation with the subconscious belief in mind can transform how effectively you engage and convert your audience."
[21:33]

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Subconscious Over Strategy: The subconscious mind can be a greater determinant of business success than conscious strategies alone.

2. Historical Insights Inform Modern Practices: Understanding the evolution from Freud’s theories to Bernays' public relations strategies can enhance contemporary marketing efforts.

3. Differentiating Minds: Recognizing the distinct roles of the conscious and subconscious mind aids in crafting more effective marketing messages.

4. Storytelling as a Tool: Building a repository of stories that counteract common false beliefs can significantly improve content and sales copy.

5. Authenticity vs. Algorithm: Balancing genuine, heartfelt content with the demands of social media algorithms is essential for meaningful audience engagement.

6. Leveraging Technology: Utilizing surveys and AI tools can uncover deep insights into audience beliefs and desires, informing more targeted content strategies.

7. Ongoing Learning and Adaptation: Continuously experimenting with and refining subconscious-focused strategies can lead to sustained business growth and success.

---

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for entrepreneurs seeking to harness the power of the subconscious mind to overcome barriers and achieve significant breakthroughs in their business ventures.

Transcript

[Russell Brunson]

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[Matt Gray]

So go on, download the Experian app.

[Russell Brunson]

Trust me, having a BFF like this is a total game changer.

[Matt Gray]

What's up, everybody?

[Unknown]

This is Russell.

[Matt Gray]

Welcome back to the show. I hope you're all having an amazing day today and excited hanging out with you.

[Unknown]

So, a couple weeks ago, I did.

[Matt Gray]

A podcast episode with Matt Gray, and he actually flew out to Boise and I got to interview him, and it was a. It was a great conversation. And then afterwards, he wanted to do.

[Unknown]

A podcast on his channel. He's like, what do you want to talk about?

[Matt Gray]

And I'm like, well, if I get.

[Unknown]

To choose what I'm talking about, I want to talk about how your subconscious.

[Matt Gray]

Mind either holds you back from success or it's the thing that propels you towards success.

[Unknown]

He started geeking out.

[Matt Gray]

I was geeking out, and we had. We had so much fun. So that's.

[Unknown]

This episode is you can go watch.

[Matt Gray]

On his channel, but thought it would be fun to replay it here as well so you guys can just hear.

[Unknown]

The conversation and hopefully give you some ideas.

[Matt Gray]

We're going deep right now in all things success and subconscious mind and a whole bunch of other cool things that we have coming out for you guys later on towards the end of summer. And so this will be kickoff towards those conversations. I hope it gets you guys excited. So I appreciate you all. Thanks for listening. Thanks for hanging out and enjoy this episode with me and Matt Gray.

[Russell Brunson]

This is the Russell Brunson Show.

[Matt Gray]

Well, first off, this is amazing because what you just gave me, which is a huge gift, so thank you. I am really excited about this.

[Russell Brunson]

What if I told you that the biggest bottleneck in your business isn't your strategy, it's your subconscious? Today I'm going to go and meet up with my mentor and friend, Russell Brunson, and we're going to dive into how your subconscious can either be the biggest contributing factor to your success, or it can actually sabotage their success.

[Matt Gray]

These are all the subconscious feelings, right? If I want to be a millionaire or a billionaire, whatever the next level is for you, it's like, what does a billionaire believe differently than I believe?

[Russell Brunson]

We're trying just a lot of, like, trial and error around that. Seeing, like, what sticks.

[Matt Gray]

You got me so excited.

[Russell Brunson]

We're going to show how your subconscious can influence things like your marketing, your content, your sales. And when you get it dialed in, it's going to help propel you to your goals and help you avoid massive failures that are in front of your face every single day.

[Matt Gray]

I never thought about the subconscious belief and building it. That direction is fascinating.

[Russell Brunson]

We're going to share a lot of different tactics and systems that I haven't shared anywhere else. And I also learn a ton of things that help me go and avoid sabotaging my own success. So I can't wait for you to see this. Let's get into it. I feel like uncovered something I think we're both into, but I'm sure in very, very different ways, which is the power of the subconscious mind and its influence on different aspects of business and your personal life.

[Matt Gray]

Exciting stuff to talk about. Yeah, that'd be awesome.

[Russell Brunson]

Get into it. We've got kind of the subconscious side of things, let's say mindset side, and curious to dive into some of your kind of, like, practices, tactics. What you've seen really work because obviously we got the sales side, which I know is something that you're super passionate about, and then the content side of things, which is something that we're both really passionate about. From reading over the years, from mentors, podcasts, and just talking with fellow entrepreneurs, I've come to the realization honestly that what's going on in your subconscious is way more important than what even is consciously happening. The idea of not just programming your subconscious by thinking or writing certain things, but actually feeling them being the most important aspect is something that me and Russell jam on here.

[Matt Gray]

Most people that I know that talk about subconscious, they start with, like, the mindset side. They. That's what they're focusing on. And for me, it started the other way. It started with sale, and it's actually fascinating if you look at the history of it. Again, I'm a. I'm a book nerd. But if you look back, the first person that under, like, discovered and Started talking about, like, unconscious, subconscious was Freud. And he was doing it from this whole, like, therapy angle. But Freud had a nephew named Edward Bernays. He was listening to Freud talk about stuff. And this is amazing. So Bernays came here to America. He started taking these. These concepts that Freud was trying to do for mindset and for psychology and for, you know, therapy, stuff like that. He's like, I think I can use this to, like, to make money and to. And to change people's thoughts and perceptions. So he wrote a book called Propaganda, which is an insanely good book, taking Freud stuff but using it for mass persuasion. How do we persuade people? How do we move people? The very first, like, big project he got was for the government. And at the time, whatever war, it was World War I or something, most people did not want to go to war. They were fighting against it. So the government brought him in and said, like, use stuff you figured out to get the whole country on board with going to war. And so he built these big HU propaganda campaigns. And then he went out there and he persuaded and literally shifted the entire country to where everyone was behind the war, excited for the war. Because that's kind of the beginning of him testing out Freud stuff in mass persuasion psychology. And he kept going, going. And again that time he writes this book called Propaganda, showing how he's doing it. But then propaganda becomes this very negative term. And so he goes back, he's like, we need to change this. So he renamed Propaganda Public Relations, which became pr. And he was the. He was the one who founded pr. And so I came into the sales world learning about the subconscious, like, through that lens of, like, same way that I get somebody, if I'm in an audience, there's you, 5,000 people in the room. And I'm trying to get them to run to the back and buy my thing. Like, understanding the psychology of. That's the same psychology I need to actually change myself. And so then it's like turning it inwards. And then for the last two and a half years of my life, that's my obsessions, like changing myself, my own mindset through this same persuasion techniques, subconscious understanding. So that's kind of how I connect those things together.

[Russell Brunson]

Oftentimes we think we're being conscious with decisions that we're making. But the truth is there's other stories going on in the background. I've gone and become consistent about every single night, listening to a certain meditation. I love this one from Bob Proctor and this one from Wayne Dyer. And then I also go and Read a one pager that kind of creates my dream scene of where I'm looking to be over the next year. And when I'm reading that, I'm really fueling into those emotions. And that surprisingly sounds like he has a similar strategy.

[Matt Gray]

I think one thing that'll help this make sense for people too is like, understand the difference between conscious and subconscious, right? The conscious mind speaks in questions. So a lot of times we're asking questions over and over and over again. Whereas the subconscious deals with stories, which is why when you're doing yourself at night, like you're not like asking yourself questions like you're painting a vision, you're, you're, you're painting a picture, you're telling a story for your subconscious mind to see and understand, right? And that's the thing that a lot of people miss. I'm consciously deciding like, what is the thing I want to change my life or consciously seeing the thing that it's broken, right? And then what we try to do is we try to consciously try to solve the problem. But like, you know, that doesn't actually work. I, A lot of entrepreneurs come my world, they see like we have an award called the 2 comma Club Awards. They see, I want, I'm going to.

[Unknown]

Make it to comic.

[Matt Gray]

It's a conscious, like I decided I want to win a two comic book award. And they start going towards it and it's crazy. Some people, like, it's very simple, they just go and they get it right. And other people, it's like they just can't. They thing after thing, they, no matter what they do, they can't figure out how to get it. And it's not a conscious thing. We give the same training, same frameworks, the same systems to everybody. But some have success and some, some don't. And the reason is because of the subconscious, like the story that's told inside their mind, right? Somebody who grew up in a family where the family like thought money was easy to, to, to get and they just have this subconscious belief. Like the story they told is like, oh, it's easy to give money. There's money in abundance. Where somebody grew up in a family maybe where people were like, money's really hard, it's. And they just have this belief, like that's this belief they have. And when I understand that, it's like now I have to, I have to figure out how to change that, that subconscious belief. And there's a lot of ways to that, like what you're talking about. You're denied like you're telling yourself these stories, putting that pattern into your mind versus the other one.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah. You know, you see it all the time. Like whether it's like someone, they know they need to make content, they need to be putting their brand out there, but they're worried what their team's going to think or what are my investors going to think. And sure enough, they have these stories in their head that are tripping them up and preventing them from doing the thing that they really know, I think in their heart of hearts and like it's part of their calling in life to get that thing done. But there's just these like stories that are sort of tripping them up. So the most beautiful thing about your subconscious mind is that you can actually go and influence it. I have a bunch of strategies that I've used. Things like my board meeting strategy. And Russell's got a bunch of strategies that he's also used to evolve into a founder of a multibillion dollar company now. So we chop it up on those inside systems that we've used. I was pretty surprised actually to learn a few of his because they're new practices I'm going to now integrate into my daily routine. Oftentimes it's that drama side of things, not the math side of things that's really tripping people up. What's like the core thing that you sometimes find is this is like a way to help others or with something that's worked in your own life to get people over that.

[Matt Gray]

Let me explain on sales side because it makes it for me, it's easier.

[Russell Brunson]

That's like where it's all started. Like it's all there and then it filtered down to one. So yeah, rip it.

[Matt Gray]

I'm the worst ever. One on one salesperson. I'm not good at that stresses me out. But I'm really good at one to many sales. So the problem with one to many cells is there's a whole audience of people and I don't know what their individual concerns are. You're kind of just like shotgunning out a whole bunch of things and hoping for the best. Right. And so when I'm doing a presentation that I know the goal is to get somebody to go buy something at the end of it for them to go buy something. I need them to believe this going to work for them. Right. And then I reverse engineer, like, would they not believe that? What are the stories they already have in their mind? And so it's like, well, one of the case studies I always share because it's like kind of a goofy one. But easy is like, let's say, let's say you're selling someone a network marketing opportunity, right? As soon as I said that, I'm sure everyone listening, like you had an instant like visceral reaction. You're like, I love network marketing. You're like, this is the most evil thing in the world. Or put an idea into your head and you're, you instantly subconsciously had a feeling. But they have, they have this story that like, if I join network marketing opportunity, I'm gonna lose my friends, my family. That's the subconscious story to have. So I gotta think back. Why do they believe that? Like something happened in their life that caused them to do. And again, I don't, I don't know each person individually, a whole, like what probably happened. So usually what happened is that either they joined a network marketing opportunity, they called other friends and their family and they got, you know, yelled at and they got hung up, or they had somebody that they knew join and the person kept bugging them in their head. No matter how good I am at selling or persuasion, they are never going to run the back of the room if that's the belief they have. Even though I'm giving a presentation, we're consciously speaking, I know that they have a subconscious belief that will keep them from ever buying my product. So I got to figure out, okay, this is the story they have. What story do I have that would trump their story? Because if I can replace their story with my story, then they will move. If my story will trump their story, that story will fall away and then the new story will take over. And now when I pitch invite, this is me, they'll run to the back of the room if they believe my story. And so that's, that's how we do it in sales. And so myself, the same thing, I come back and I'm like, what's the story I actually have right now? Like, I have to tell myself a better story to rewrite the false belief. Otherwise it's not going anywhere.

[Unknown]

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[Russell Brunson]

So your subconscious doesn't just influence your mindset, but it can also go and help you with content. I go over some of my most favorite tactics here for really helping you understand what's going on in the mind of your core consumer so you can go and leverage the stories that they're telling, the dreams they have, and their biggest fears to then influence the exact content that you can create that's going to help them convert. Now, I found this actually with on the content side, I see a lot of founders when they're coming up with a content strategy, pull it out of thin air, you know, and they're like, I don't know where to get content from, where do I come up with these ideas? And one of the core tactics that I find is most useful to actually just create content that people either consciously or subconsciously want is to just go and create a Typeform survey as an example and go into survey your existing amazing customers and ask them a few questions. Number one, you know, what's keeping you up at night right now? Oh, that's good. Number two, if you were to wave a magic wand, what would you want my help with over the next year? And number three, what is your biggest dream right now? And then taking all of those answers when you've gone and maybe surveyed, say 20 people and then using that as the backbone to your content strategy so you're starting to kind of now craft content that solves those insane problems that they're keeping them up at night that they may not even consciously know that they totally want these things solved. That you can even solve this.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

But can kind of then spin that into a content strategy that not just attracts these people, but like really converts them to your thing because you're inherently solving those really burning problems or helping them really see that dream in a way that if they're doing it right, they feel like you're almost reading their mind.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah. When I first started really executing, the coolest thing happened with the sales stuff is they're more willing to buy. But the second off, sometimes you can consciously convince somebody to go buy something from you, but then them actually implementing it falls apart. Those are ones that people refund or they give up and they don't have success. Whereas you do it correct on the sales side where you. You break those false beliefs during the sales cycle, their ability to actually have success afterwards exponentially goes up because those false beliefs are no longer holding them back. And so it's almost like the better you get this and saving on the contest, you break someone's false beliefs during the content. When they do enter your world and decide to invest with you or get coaching or whatever the next step is inside your funnel. You've already done the work of rewriting the false beliefs up front. They're way more likely to comply and actually get the things done that you.

[Russell Brunson]

Need to find it interesting too. There's like that quote that like, people don't buy what you sell. They buy what others want to buy. And so it doesn't always need to be be just you breaking those false beliefs. If you can find obviously other amazing success stories from similar people, whether it's an agency owner just getting started or person running their first SaaS business and showing their success stories. Yeah, they're not just hearing it from you. They're seeing like themselves in that other person who also had those negative beliefs and those things that were holding them up and go, shoot. I'm just like that. And look at the success they've been able to have from leaning into it. Okay, now I'm going to subscribe to this train. So just like every company has its own intellectual property when it comes to your customer list or maybe even your tech, I believe that you also have content intellectual property. These are the common phrases that you use that become almost the monikers of your brand. The things that people come to know and love. Love you for now. I went and discovered a kind of new strategy that I formulated with partly my own subconscious and leveraging ChatGPT, which I share with Russell in this next bit. And I'm pretty sure it blew his mind. I want to run something by you. Something I've been playing with on this sort of level recently was inspired by Mel Robbins. I just kept on thinking, Mel Robbins is such a genius marketer. Like these like, different terms that she's invented, like that or the five second rule.

[Matt Gray]

My wife's a huge Mel Robbins fan, so I hear about it every day. Crushing.

[Russell Brunson]

It's like number one on Amazon, number one on Apple. And like, what is going on here? Yeah. Basically went and thought and like, what is she doing here? What is happening? And it hit me that maybe something that's kind of happening is that she's taking like all these like, psychological barriers that oftentimes, like her audience has. When I did this with my own audience, right, I was like, go and chatgpt. Come up with the top 20 limiting beliefs or psychological barriers ranked from top to bottom that someone in my audience is probably facing overwhelm. Maybe there's like imposter syndrome, fear of others, let's say. And like a bunch of others. And I had this thought of like, it feels to some extent that what she's doing is taking that feeling when it comes up in someone and then like inserting like a catchy phrase that's like a trigger reminder of like, oh, what someone should do when they feel that way. So as an example, right. For one book, you know, she's got one concept. Let's say let them. Right. The whole idea that maybe you're worried about what someone else thinks. Instead of letting your brain go into that direction, say, let them think whatever they think and let me go and control what I can control. Move on. But that feeling, that trigger, that comes up like 30 times a day. Yeah. Like in different ways. Oh, I'm going to talk to Russell today. I hope I'm on my, you know, on my best today. And it's like, you know, at a certain point, stop worrying about this. Like, let Russell think what he's gonna think and I'm gonna do what I do and let's see where this goes.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

Similar to her book 5 Second Rule. When you're procrastinating or when you're putting off that thing that you should be doing, like using that rule constantly in your life where again, it probably comes up 20 plus times a day and thereby in some senses, like Mel Robbins concepts are like coming up in your brain like 20, 30 times a day. And so I started thinking, okay, what would it look like to. With each of these, like core blockers that my audience has either Consciously or subconsciously, what are, like, different phrases that I have or could invent that help people overcome that?

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

So say for a fear of others and what they're going to think, maybe, like the phrase is like, do it messy. This whole idea of, like, do a messy, like, launch this, like, thing that's kind of shit. Launch a draft. Like, it's okay. Like, if it's a bit messy, just go for it. Coming up with this basically like a phrase cloud that all of these phrases then deal with all of these, like, subconscious or conscious, like, blockers that people get into. By then you have all these phrases. You can test them in, like, short form content in tweets, in YouTube videos, see what catches fire and then kind of like double down on that as almost like your content intellectual property. It was crazy because when I was reading her book, it was interesting. The first 15 pages she's coming up with, like, so where I even come up with this concept, I actually put a short form video out. Oh, really? And I had shared this because my daughter had said it in the backyard. And sure enough, this video caught storm. Got like 20 million views in 24 hours. And she made a podcast around it, and it was like the number one Apple podcast around that. And she's like, okay, I'm going to write a book around this. So I'm curious on your side, like, yeah, what you do around this or how you're thinking around it. Any strategies? You've been a genius with this in your own way. Like, the concept of like inventing a funnel as, like, people were kind of thinking, like, I want to, you know, drive people from traffic to, like a website to, like, a product. It's like, that's a funnel. Like, how do you think about that a bit?

[Matt Gray]

Well, first off, this is amazing because this left hand column, these are all the subconscious feelings, right? When you have a conscious decision and these are things you're feeling, that's what you got to be aware of. And so it's like, why do I have the fear of others? Why do I have the imposter syndrome? Why do I have those? What you just gave me, which is a huge gift, so thank you, is just like, I never thought about that lens of what Mel's doing or how to do in content, but this is what hit me.

[Russell Brunson]

I don't know if she's doing this, but it felt, it felt, it feels like that.

[Matt Gray]

I think you're dead on. She may not even consciously know what she's doing, but that is. I am really excited about that. So what this is doing is what we said earlier. This is trumping the story, right? So like, you do it messy, you're gonna tell a story about that, and next time someone has it, they're gon to default to like, fear of others. And that's the story. And then it's like, oh wait, I can replace it with this story. Do it messy. And then that gives them encouragement and power because you turn the story.

[Russell Brunson]

And it's like, interesting because in the previous thing we were kind of talking about like how to then come up with a content strategy around this. It's like, well, you have like maybe a chart of like 20 of these fears or limiting beliefs or subconscious like barriers. People have like that one thought, which in her case was let them, but in this case maybe it's like, again, do it messy. And it's like, how do you then start to create like a bit of a content waterfall off of that? Basically put it in front of like a focus group online and like kind of go and go, okay, I'm gonna make like a, a YouTube video off of this. And then I'm gonna go and I'm gonna create six, like ig, you know, reels off this, six tick tocks off that. I'm gonna create like a, an email newsletter to just put it in front of enough people and see if like when you're in conversations with folks. Yeah, like, are people kind of like, oh man, like I was like having this trouble, man. I was so worried about what my family was thinking. I was so scared. And like, honestly, I just came to grips. I just got messy. Like, I love that change me. And you're like, are you getting DMs around it now? Or people are actually using that language? And you're like, okay, this is like a sticky idea.

[Matt Gray]

Brilliant. Like, I always create content based on begin the hook or the headline or whatever, the external thing. I never thought about starting it with the, the subconscious belief and building it. That direction is fascinating. Again, when I'm speaking from stage, consciously talking to him, I'm subconsciously telling stories. Right. First phase I'm doing on creating presentations, thinking to what are the false beliefs somebody has? Yeah, I'm creating content, not doing that. I'm not starting with like with a subconscious that's holding him back.

[Russell Brunson]

Like when you're doing these big events, this one to many selling. The thing I didn't realize for so long is that there's actually two events going on. There's like the event that others are seeing, but Then there's also this event that you're doing underneath all that, which is like understanding their beliefs, the beliefs that they need to overcome, inserting those stories where they just think it's this awesome thing that you just kind of put together and it's like amazing. Like, this is quite the show.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

But underneath that there's a lot of belief, breaking belief, inserting new stories you made. And I think that that's like the opportunity for both of us.

[Matt Gray]

First mentor, Dan Kennedy, he had an event called the Influential Writing Workshop. And it was all about writing good sales copy. What we made all of us do is we had to go and list out all the false beliefs that our potential customer has. And then from there we had to write a story for every single one. And he's like, you need to build like a repository of stories. He's like, most people do, they. They show up hoping that the story will appear. Right. So he made us sit down there for like hours writing down every false belief and then figuring out like a story from our past that would for every single one that we could tell. And it was like kind of a long, brutal process. But I look at the last decade of my life, literally 90% of the stories I came from that exercise. Right. I always look at it from my writing copy, doing a presentation. And I've always looked at content separately, which I don't think is correct. So struggle with content stuff. And I think that's probably one of the core reasons is I just haven't even thought about the same way I thought about everything else.

[Russell Brunson]

I definitely noticed that about you just talking in person. You're like a story bank. Like it's impressive. Yeah, I know. I'm learning too from you. Like that makes sense. I feel like that exercise was quite transformative. Feels like it had a ton of dividends because it seems like it's like created this. Yeah, yeah. Like a repository in your brain. Like, okay, this new person that did a E commerce business, this person that had that belief that was screwed up, this person that thought that network marketing was ugly or whatever the heck.

[Matt Gray]

And after you do that the first time, then every time you see a story you're like, oh, I can use that. And also you become more aware of it. So first it was very much like a written out thing. And over time it becomes more where, you know, a lot of more is in your head, but it's just. But it opens up your eyes to all different ways to use story.

[Russell Brunson]

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[Matt Gray]

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[Russell Brunson]

Username or scanning a QR code. Just hold your iPhone near someone else's to send, switch to Apple Cash and start sending privately. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot bank member fdic. So most people, you know, all of us will go and buy something and I don't know about you, but when I purchase something I'll go back and go what exactly happened there that caused me to convert over the years? From having been on enough sales calls, delivered enough myself, trained enough sales teams across my portfolio of online companies. I think it's important that you really prepare for the subconscious script going on in any sales call. So we're going to go and break down how you can go and plan the different beliefs, the objections and the specific stories that you want to make sure that you're planting into the subconscious of any prospect so they're convinced of your solution, your product and ready to buy.

[Matt Gray]

When you do your content stuff, where do you lead initially? Where do you start? Do you start at the subconscious belief level?

[Russell Brunson]

These days I am leading into this like, like subconscious like belief inside of it with like those phrases that I just showed you. So yeah, me and the team, like we went and took like all the 20 most popular kind of limiting beliefs people have and then went and drew up either new phrases kind of again content IP that's like unique. It's only own by me like people haven't heard anywhere else. So that it's got like a stickiness factor that can then be associated with our brand. Yeah, we're trying just a lot of like trial and error around that seeing like what sticks. That's like I think a more like advanced level. I don't think you need to do that out the gate. I do think that the thing that everyone should be doing out the gate is like the survey of three questions. Yeah, we live in a cool day and age where you can use again type form or whatever you want to use for that Google forms doesn't matter and then even upload the whole CSV to ChatGPT. Analyze this and live analyze this and just come up with like what are like the top top 20 how to videos I could create that would help my the people in my audience. What are the top 10 lists these people would enjoy and think about like the format that you most enjoy for whatever piece of content or platform you're making it for and see what ideas you can get from that.

[Matt Gray]

So we took all, like, 1500 podcast episodes I've done, uploaded my books, found all my presentations I've ever given. So we took basically everything I've ever said publicly, threw it into jad, GPT and Manus and a couple different things. And then it's been so cool to be able to, like, ask it questions and pull out analyzing patterns. Like, what are the. It's helped me just in the last couple of weeks, speed up like. Like pulling out ideas for. For all these different type of things. I'm excited to run through the lens of. Yeah, like, what are the phrases? Or even, like, based on stories I'm telling, what are the false beliefs I'm trying to break, you know, and, like, start reverse engineering what we've been doing over the last two decades and start figuring those things out. I always think about this, like, conscious mind has got to be a guard for our subconscious because if we're not careful, like, you are allowing these beliefs to, like, bypass your conscious directly into your subconscious, and you can see the results happening on the back side of it. Right. We have to consciously be a protector of, like, what we allow in, number one. But number two is like, auto suggestions, all by figuring out the things we do want. Like, what are the things we need to believe, the things we got to tell ourselves to, like, get our subconscious mind to point us in the correct direction. Right. If I know this is the destination. I'm. I'm sorry, Models. Right. So if I know, like, here's people I know who've gotten here, what do they believe? Like, I got to figure out what they believe if I want to be a millionaire or a billionaire or whatever the next level is for you. It's like, what is a millionaire believe differently? Right. What does a billionaire believe differently than I believe? What is a founder? What is whatever the goal you want? Right. And so you model that and then reverse engineer. Here's the things they believe that I struggle with. All right, let's. Let's create suggestions to get us to have the same beliefs that we need to have to get there. Right.

[Russell Brunson]

And at your current level, is there any content stuff that you're currently, like, noodling on on your own side that you want to chop it up on?

[Matt Gray]

We've been playing a lot with that recently and trying to figure out, like, my unique voice. I feel like we've been struggling a little bit. There's platforms we have like, for me, it's like live events or podcasts, where it's like I can speak and connect to people in a certain way. But now, and when the Internet got started or social media got started, it was all based on, like, we get subscribers, we give a message to our subscribers here now. But for most social platforms now, it's longer subscriber based, it's algorithm based. Right. So it's like, a lot of times we're. I'm having to create content in a way that's not the way I would normally do it to be able to feed the algorithm, and I struggle with that.

[Russell Brunson]

A debate as old as our time. Art versus algorithm. So often I talk to founders and they get so caught up in the views, the comments, the likes. And while this stuff is important as it can give you a general sense of how a piece of content is performing, it also can lead you astray.

[Matt Gray]

So I guess for me, the question is just understanding, like, how do you make it match to make it work? You know what I mean?

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah. I think, like, this, like, battle that, like every, like, founder and creator is going through. It's, you know, art versus, you know, like, algorithm. Yeah. When you weight yourself maybe as like, a founder, where inevitably, like, there's got to be some, like, profit on the other side of this, or else you can't afford to have the whole team around you. You have to consider the algorithm, but you don't want to ignore the art. When I ask, like, 60% of people that come and work at Founder west, like, what was it that caused you to want to do this together? A lot of it comes down to, like, some kind of commentary on, like, your value, vibe, or energy. And if I just simply go and maybe optimize for the algorithm, I'm like, scripting out word by word. I'm like, crafting it exactly the way that I know that when this video went viral, they said this, and I have this thing there. And while you're architecting it, like, immaculately, maybe for the algorithm, you're missing, like, the vibe, the energy. And then suddenly now it's like, oh, this is just some scripted bs.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

And I think we live in a day and age, especially right now on a lot of these platforms. We swung so far algorithmically. I think it's just like a online creator community more than ever. Like, just off the cuff, behind the scenes. The authenticity, like, really is.

[Matt Gray]

It drives me crazy as a consumer because I go see like 30 videos of the same thumbnail, same time, you know, it's their version. But it's like everyone doing the same thing, like copying each other versus again like you said, the art of here's what I want to teach, what I want to share.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah. So the things that I think like that are worth like looking at in terms of the algorithm are like, let's just say use the example of a short form video. It's like, you know, like the general like word count you can go for. So obviously you're not going to just like go on like maybe a 20 minute ramble for like a minute video. You know that you got about 130 words that you can do and so like learning to like pack package up your ideas into that amount. Yeah, I think like the most important thing obviously is like the hook on that side. What I've seen successful is like knowing the hook that you're going to start with like lock yourself in a room and read these 10 books. They'll change your life. But then from there just get into the 10 books that really change your life.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

It doesn't need to be scripted from there. What I also found useful, this is kind of, I guess kind of more of a Steve Jobs thing, right. It's like the rule of three. Like because you don't have that much time oftentimes to get into to a given idea, potentially packaging up your idea when you're talking about off the cuff into like the three core things someone needs to know where like art and algorithm. I think mix is like finding like your, your brand. People are going to be able to stop the scroll more if like you're instantly recognizable and where I think a lot of founders get tripped up because they think they're optimizing for the algorithm, but what they're quickly doing is like they're making a video that looks just like Hormozi's videos and they have the same color scheme, the same font, the same hooks and suddenly they just are watered down version of Hormozy. Let's just say instead of sort of doubling down on what is your like color, you know, core color of your videos. Right. What's the core, you know, font. What's like your unique B roll. What's like the sound that you use and doesn't just have to be all the algorithm sounds of what's blowing up, like what's the sound of your brand? Like what do you listen to when you're wrestling or when you're writing? Like that becomes like oh, I'm like in Russell's world where we all get Tripped up sometimes is that the platform quickly tell you how many people like or view your stuff. But likes and views don't equal cash.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

And they can be really deceiving because the things that actually reward views and likes oftentimes is like beginner content.

[Matt Gray]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

Viral content, controversial content, mass appeal content. But oftentimes we're not even talking. Yeah, exactly. These are not even the people oftentimes that we're trying to really capture and talk to. And so you may actually see when you execute a more balanced, like, art approach where it is more unique to you, you're talking about the things that matter to that corner of your audience that you will see your light likes decrease and you will see your views decrease, but you're actually talking to the right people. It's this like, idea of like, you know, signal over noise.

[Matt Gray]

Right.

[Russell Brunson]

Noise being like the likes, the views and all that. What matters a lot more to me is like I say follow like you and like a hundred other entrepreneurs on Instagram that like, I respect the hell of. And if I see you comment on something, or my friend Daniel Dalin comment on something question, I like, respect a lot who has good tastes, like, is successful. They know a good idea when they see it. That's 10,000 likes. So I'm kind of like trying to get a read on like the signal of a piece of content versus just like the views of it or the likes. It's especially useful for those of us that aren't just targeting beginners all day long. Right. When you have a more sophisticated buyer, inevitably you're probably going to do your job. Right. When you do have less views or likes. And that's okay. The algorithm may show you that certain formats work, work, but again, if you just copy that format, not you, but anyone, you end up just being another one of those. So can you be more inventive in a format, it's not going to get necessarily as many views or likes, but the right people are going to see it and like, save it. Share with a friend. Yeah, like, and be like, how do I get in a room where Russell's doing this? Which is the exact kind of person you want? Yeah, potentially for sure.

[Matt Gray]

That's awesome, man. I love that. Thank you.

[Russell Brunson]

Cool.

[Matt Gray]

It's really helpful.

[Russell Brunson]

Well, listen, it's, you know, been great hanging and a dream come true in many senses, man. And I appreciate and all, all the that you've done to contribute to the founder community over the years and you continue to inspire in so many ways and just really appreciate. Yeah, just all your generosity over the years, it, like, means a lot. It's changed my life. It's changed a lot of other people's lives. And I definitely wouldn't be doing this and probably a lot of things in my life right now had it not been for a lot of the stuff you've shared. So just want to say thank you.

[Matt Gray]

I appreciate that, man. Thank you for letting me know that.

[Russell Brunson]

Awesome.

[Matt Gray]

Finally making this happen. We're talking about it for like a year. We finally made it.

[Russell Brunson]

Exactly. No, I appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome. Very cool. Thank you. Thank you, Russell. Thanks.

[Unknown]

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