No Ads Needed: Katheryn Jones Lish on Mastering Joint Partnerships

Summary

Podcast Summary: "No Ads Needed: Katheryn Jones Lish on Mastering Joint Partnerships"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Marketing Secrets with Russell Brunson
• Host: Russell Brunson | YAP Media
• Episode: No Ads Needed: Katheryn Jones Lish on Mastering Joint Partnerships
• Release Date: November 25, 2024

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of Marketing Secrets with Russell Brunson, Russell delves into the often-overlooked marketing strategy of joint ventures and partnerships. He is joined by Catherine Jones Lish, a seasoned expert in leveraging collaborations to drive business growth without relying on traditional advertising channels.

2. The Power of Joint Ventures

Russell opens the discussion by highlighting the significance of joint ventures in growing ClickFunnels from zero to over $10 million annually without spending on ads for the first two years. He emphasizes that partnerships were the cornerstone of their initial success.

Russell Brunson [00:01]: "We grew the business from zero to over $10 million a year completely through joint ventures and partnerships."

3. Catherine's Journey and Success Stories

Catherine shares her personal journey, detailing how she transitioned from working solo to mastering joint ventures. She recounts her experience of launching her course from a dorm room and pivoting to partnerships when traditional advertising became challenging.

Catherine Jones Lish [09:19]: "It is so Sexy. And then it's like, yeah, let's do it."

She narrates specific instances where joint ventures led to significant sales spikes, such as making $120,000 in a single pitch and earning $26,000 from a collaborative effort with Spencer Mecham.

4. Key Strategies for Mastering Joint Partnerships

Catherine outlines the fundamental principles that make joint ventures successful:

• Sales Coin: Offering a complementary product that adds value to the partner's audience without being competitive.

  Catherine Jones Lish [34:26]: "Sales, status, impact, and time. That's what they want, or that's what I want and that's what they want too."

• Status Coin: Developing a unique selling proposition, termed the "Breaking News Method," to differentiate her offerings from competitors.

  Catherine Jones Lish [38:01]: "It's about how I can help your people get results faster. I have a step-by-step method which guarantees their success."

• Impact Coin: Ensuring that her methods lead to tangible results for the partner's audience through step-by-step processes and case studies.

  Catherine Jones Lish [41:35]: "You need to have a step by step method so that people actually get results and they are praised for bringing you in."

• Time Coin: Providing scalable, mass-distributable products that allow partners to generate significant revenue without additional time investment.

5. Building Relationships & Messaging

The conversation shifts to the nuances of initiating and maintaining joint ventures. Catherine emphasizes the importance of being "joint venture ready" by having a clear product, proven methods, and compelling case studies before approaching potential partners.

Catherine Jones Lish [52:50]: "It's actually very simple. It's a two-step formula. Number one, get their attention. Number two, present your coin."

She shares her creative approach to capturing Russell's attention by building a personalized funnel and presenting a compelling pitch that clearly outlines mutual benefits.

Catherine Jones Lish [53:52]: "I built a funnel that said, hey, Russell, I made this video for you. And then in the video, what did I do? I was like, hey, here's the storyline. You're here, I'm here."

Russell echoes the effectiveness of building authentic relationships and persisting through initial setbacks, as he recounts his own experiences of reaching out to influential figures until meaningful partnerships were formed.

Russell Brunson [59:30]: "I remember seeing the big names... I made my list and started sending messages. Most did not respond, but persistence paid off with new connections."

6. Conclusion

Russell and Catherine conclude by reinforcing the enduring value of joint ventures as a sustainable and scalable marketing strategy. They advocate for diversifying traffic sources beyond traditional ads and highlight how partnerships can lead to exponential business growth while fostering meaningful professional relationships.

Russell Brunson [67:18]: "Diversify your traffic, do joint ventures, have some fun, get to know cool people, and it'll make this whole business so much more fun."

Catherine adds that joint ventures are accessible to both beginners and advanced entrepreneurs, emphasizing that the key lies in offering genuine value and maintaining a clear, structured approach.

Catherine Jones Lish [67:19]: "If you really are an expert in your craft and have a good product, you can leverage the right partnerships to grow exponentially."

Key Takeaways:

• Joint Ventures Over Ads: Building partnerships can be a highly effective alternative to traditional advertising, offering scalable and sustainable growth.
• Be Joint Venture Ready: Ensure your product is clear, complementary, and has proven results before seeking partnerships.
• Mutual Benefits: Successful joint ventures offer reciprocal benefits, including sales, status enhancement, impactful results, and time efficiency.
• Authentic Relationship Building: Focus on genuine collaborations where both parties can leverage each other's strengths without transactional overtones.
• Persistence Pays Off: Building meaningful partnerships may require persistence and creativity in outreach efforts.

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for entrepreneurs looking to harness the power of joint ventures to amplify their marketing efforts and drive significant business growth without the reliance on paid advertising.

Transcript

[Russell Brunson]

This episode is brought to you by Global X. Since 2008, Global X ETFs has been committed to empowering investors with unexplored intelligence solutions. Global X specializes in exchange traded funds that offer exposure to the artificial intelligence ecosystem, including themes like data centers, robotics, semiconductors and cloud computing. To learn more about Global X's entire suite of ETFs from covered calls, fixed income, emerging markets and more, Visit Global X ETFs. Want to shop Walmart Black Friday deals first Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership. Shop Black Friday deals first with Walmart plus see [e-mail] what's up everybody? It's Russell. Welcome back to the Selling Online or the Marketing Secrets of podcast depending on when you are listening to this. We just finished recording a really cool episode about one of my favorite things to talk about yet. One of the things that are probably the, I'd say one of the least used marketing tactics of today and it's the marketing tactic we use to grow clickfunnels. A lot of people know we didn't buy any ads in clickfunnels for the first two years. We grew our businesses, the business from zero to over $10 million a year completely through joint ventures and partnerships. And I'm lucky enough that this week we've got Catherine Jones Lish, no Catherine. I almost just messed it up here in the office. It's been a long week going live every single day. But she's here and she's someone who is one of my favorite people to talk about joint ventures with. And so we just finished a really cool conversation about that. So if you want more traffic, you want more sales, you don't want to pay Mark Zuckerberg or dance on TikTok or anything, but you want to get a lot of traffic into your offer selling your products and services. You are going to love this conversation about how to do Joy Ventures. So with that. So let's jump right into the podcast. In the last decade I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over a billion dollars in my own products and services online. This show is going to show you how to start, grow and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson and welcome to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. All right, so I'm back right now with the second of our interviews today with Katherine Jones Lish. I almost keep forgetting to say the last name. I'm so sorry.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I worked really hard for that last name. I Searched high and low. The amount of dating apps. Let me have it. Okay. Come on.

[Russell Brunson]

This is Kyle Jones end Katherine wish. That seems easier to say.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I know, but here's the thing. I was Katherine Jones for too long. But I have to have it.

[Russell Brunson]

It's true. And I used to always think Catherine Zita Jones. That's how I never forget it.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

My nickname in middle school was Zita. So I'm telling you what, I'm open to it.

[Russell Brunson]

I'm here today with Zita and we're gonna go deep into a new topic. No, we did a podcast interview a little bit ago. So those listening to the podcast. It was our last episode probably, but this one, we're gonna go on a different angle. We talked about selling sales funnels last time, which is one of the genius things you are genius at. But the second thing I wanna talk about is actually joint ventures and partnerships. And. And I wanted to talk about this for a couple reasons. And I'll kind of caveat this right now just so you have some context to why this is fascinating in my head right now. But when I got started in this business way back in the day, we did not have Facebook, we did not have Instagram, we didn't have TikTok, we didn't have any of the social platforms. In fact, I remember when I was in college, the very first social platform I was aware of was called Friendster. Do you remember Friendster?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I don't even know. I don't even know what that is.

[Russell Brunson]

Friendster. And I remember people freaking out, like, you can go and you can find friends, you can connect. And that was a big thing. And then everyone was blowing up as this huge viral sensation. And then from there, this new company came and disrupted it called MySpace. And everyone's like, we're leaving Friendster to go to MySpace. Everyone's on MySpace. This is where I got in the Internet, right? And you couldn't buy ads on MySpace or Friendster. You could buy Google Ads. That was like the one thing we were buying, Google Ads. There was this guy named Chris Carpenter, wrote a book called Google Cash. And it was insane. This is like this. Insert my potato gun story here. Cause you read Google Cash and it was basically like you go to Google and you buy an ad and you Pay. You pay 5 cents a click, and then you make, you know, a dollar over here. And you could do affiliate offers or anything. So everybody who read that book got rich. It was like 100% success stories if you read that book. Because it was so.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

It was just like, the perfect time, the perfect demand.

[Russell Brunson]

The algorithms, the prices were cheap, the algorithm worked. And so, like, you'd go to clickbank, you find any offer, you pick it out, you go to Google, you buy dad. And you just. And it was just free money. And so everyone met. It was just crazy. I'm potato guns, everything. Like, we're all doing that. And it was insane. I was like this. I'm the smartest person on the planet. Like, I thought I was genius, right? And then came the horrible Google slap, right? And it shifted. And all of a sudden, all the prices change. And that point forward, advertising online just got hard. And most people I knew who were making a ton of money disappeared. I never saw them again. And there's been these waves that happened throughout, man, the 25 years I've been playing this game where homes make a bunch of money and then something changes and they all disappear. And then. And so I've been on this. This cycle for a long time anyway. So for me, like, because the Google slap, I got so scared. Like, I started trying to figure out, how else can I get traffic? And we didn't have other places to buy ads from. So 100% of my traffic for the next decade and a half, ish, Came from joint ventures, from partnerships, and we used to go to Internet marketing events. And when you go to these events, all the speakers, all we talked about were, how did you join ventures and partnerships? And that's what all the conversations were. There were no conversations on funnel building, no conversations on traffic or SEO or Facebook or anything. All we talked about were joint ventures and partnerships. And that's how we all got traffic back then. And then what happened is this thing called Facebook came out, and it got easier to get Zuckerberg to send you traffic than talk to somebody else and have to build an actual physical relationship and talk to people. And so everyone switched to Facebook ads, and that became the thing. And then I saw all the Facebook slaps have happened over the decades and same kind of thing. But what's fascinating is last year, so I have my inner circle, and we have a. We have a $50,000 year level, $150,000 year level, $250,000 a year level. Everyone was in this room, and I got up and I did a presentation on joint ventures. And of all the things, like, in my mind, this is like a simple thing. And people's eyes were popping. They were going nuts. People like, wait a minute, you're saying we can get traffic and not have to pay Zuckerberg but you're saying we get like. And I was like, this is so fascinating for me. Like, for the first decade of my business, this is all we ever talked about. And no one talks about it now. And so I want to have this conversation because I remember which funnel hack two funnel hacking lives ago, I had you come and speak on joint ventures. And of the 20 some odd years I've been doing joint ventures and teaching and talking about it, that was the best presentation I've ever seen. So I'm not just saying that to, like, because you're sitting here. I said that at the back of the room. I was watching. Like, this is insane. And it was amazing. So I want to talk about that now. I'm going to. So this. That's the longest intro of a podcast.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I'll take it. I mean, it's making me feel good about myself. So keep going. What else do you have to say about me? That's the best speech you've ever heard. What else?

[Russell Brunson]

And then. Okay, and then again, my first meeting, you, like, watching you do your design hacking, that was the world. And also you started this campaign. And I remember it was such a good campaign. I was literally messaging, like, what are you doing? And you were talking about this sunroom and this house you bought and these things, like, you're changing everything. And I was like, I was so engaged in this launch that you were doing, I didn't know what it was. And so I know that it became a lot of this joint venture thing. So I'd love for you to lead with telling your sunroom story and the transition and then. And let's dive into, like, the actual mechanics of these joint ventures, how we can get traffic and things like that.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yes. Okay, well, maybe I could say this, because I don't know who's coming to this podcast. Like, my guess, I think we'll just know. You attract, like, very, very beginnings. And you attract, like, the $250,000 a year people. And even the $250,000, your people, like you said, they're like, eyes are going big because they don't even know what a joint venture is. Because sometimes you hear about it and it's like, oh, like, are you getting VC Monday? Are you, like, acquiring the whole thing? And the answer is no. Like, what a joint venture is, is you have one party that has a product and one party that has an audience, and you both agree to launch that together. So ultimately, the person with the product pitches into that person's audience. And so one person supplies product, one person supplies audience. And then you split a 50 50. So anyway, so. So yeah, so how I got started with this was like you said, like, I had built this course all about how to design funnels, but I didn't have a way to get traffic to it. When I first started, I'd only made 20 sales. I was living in my dorm room, literally in a shared room. I had like an IKEA bunk bed where you had like the bed on top and the desk underneath. And like, I would, like, try to face my camera so you couldn't see the top of the bed. Like, that's where I was at. I'd made 20 sales and I was like, just trying to figure it out. And I anyway, and so I could like sell funnels, but I didn't know I was trying to learn how to sell a product still, you know, like for my own and the nuances of all. Anyway, but. And I knew that my funnel works when I got people to it. People were buying because I was good at funnels. But I was like, I don't have money for ads anyway. So long story short, I was like, I gotta figure out how to get traffic to this dang thing. Cause if people get there, they're buying. But I was tired of. I was just like, dming people, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm not. I don't want to like, dance on social media. I like, don't. Didn't know how to do that. Yeah. And honestly, nobody needs to see that. And the next thing is I was like, SEO is really cool, but it takes too long. Facebook ads are risky because it costs too much. And so, like, though I like had money for my funnel building business, I was just like, too afraid to, like, spend it on ads. Like, I just, I was too scared. And so I was like, I gotta figure out how to get traffic to this thing. I heard about this concept called joint ventures, and on paper, it's the sexiest thing in the world. Right? Like, just find somebody with an audience, then just convince them to let you pitch your product to their group. And then they don't do any fulfillment. It's great for them. And then you just split it 50, 50.

[Russell Brunson]

I'm like, and you have to pay. It's not like Facebook, where you're gambling ahead of time. Like, I'm gonna give the money and hopefully make sales. Like, if we make sales and then you pay them a cut, it's so awesome.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

So $0 up front and then you only pay on the back end. It is so Sexy. And then it's like, yeah, let's do it. And you're like, like, what? How? What do you mean? Right? And so, like, you go look at all the advice, and it's like, go, like, go to networking groups, develop relationships with people. And, like, very comparable to my other store. I'm just, like, too impatient. I'm like, ma. And I'm like, I don't even. What do you mean? Make friends? Like, make friends and then what? Like, that doesn't seem very friendly to me. Like, I'm going to make friends with you so that. Dot. Dot. You'll sell my product? Like, it felt a little bit like to me, right? And I was like, I don't like that. But I could. I just, like, I could see the math in it right? Where I'm like, oh, I could if I can just find, like, rather, like, the goal is always $1 million. Make a million, make a million, make a million, right? So I sold 20 units of my $1,000 course. I was at $20,000. So I was like, okay, I could either sell a thousand people into this course and just, like, pick them off one by one. I was like, or if I just find, like, 10 people that let me pitch their group and I make 100 sales per that, you know, it just was like, numbers to me. I was like, I gotta figure this out anyway. And so again, we'll go into the mechanics later. But long story short, I figured it out. How to get people to say yes to me. And it was just the most amazing thing ever, because I would go, I'd pitch into a group, and it was a warm group, like, people who trusted me because their group leader trust me. So they'd be like, it's like this selling online event. A lot of people don't know me from Adam, but they're like, because Russell says, she's cool, she's cool. Then all of a sudden, people are like, she's the expert. They don't even know who I am. And they're like, Russell said it was the same thing. You go to any group. Katherine's the best at this, blah, blah. And they're like, I don't know her. But he said, so sure. So you go in, and I would literally just do my webinar to them, and we'd pitch it, and then we'd get people into our program, and we would just track the people that came and we'd sell on the backend. And it worked so well that I was like, why would I spend money on ads? So I just. And the beautiful thing about joint ventures is if they work once, they're gonna work again. Like if that audience liked it one time, they'd work again. And if you set it up the right way, then what we would do is we just set up a joint venture so that every six months to a year we're just like going back to the same groups. Which is even more awesome because you convert typically higher and higher on the following ones because the success stories that you show in your pitch are just success stories from that group. So like, hey, you don't believe me? No. I came here six months ago and every single example I'm about to show you is from people in your group. Every single example. Blah, blah. Anyway, so I loved it. It was awesome. And but the reality is I was like never intending to turn it into a product which is seriously the same with funnel design. It's like so funny. I just like run into a problem and I'm annoyed that everybody's answers take too long. So I just like figure out a way to do it better. And anyway, so I'm just doing this and I started having people ask me like. Cause it. When you look at the advice online, which is like, you kinda need to schmooze people a long time. The advice was like, send people like gifts in the mail and then maybe you'll get their attention and maybe they'll talk to you and you know, you're someone that gets a lot of gifts in the mail. I don't get as many as you, but like literally got one two weeks ago or a week and a half ago. And it was actually this really nice like picture of like Jesus and all this stuff, which is like sweet because I love Jesus. And I also am like, I don't know who you are and I don't even know what you want to talk about. Like, I mean, what, why like, and so I'm like, and it's like this like, he looks like a middle aged dude. And I'm like, I'm not going to just like start a relationship with a middle aged dude. Yeah, like I don't know you, but like, but if he would have sent me a pro, like how I'll hopefully we'll talk about today. Like, hey, this is my intention in contacting you. This is why I think it'd be awesome. I think we should partner together. And I'm like, I understand exactly what you're talking to, the nature of the relationship, why it's going to be so cool. Dude. Yeah, let's do it anyway. But there was just so much false advice or just, I thought, ineffective advice on how to go about it. And so anyway, people are like, how are you getting other people to do that? And that was, I think, a lot of the reason and why. How I got your attention is because, like, a lot of people in your inner circle were promoting my thing. And so that we, like, didn't know each other. When I did kind of like make my initial pitch to be like, hey, notice me, right? It wasn't like, who's this rando chick? I don't know, maybe you could tell, but I don't think it was. And anyway, and so long story short, people are like, how do you do this? So I'm just telling them, telling them, telling them. And my system's OCD brain is, like, very, like, methodical. And so they're like, oh, my gosh, like, this is amazing. So, like, one friend would call another and then another, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, I'm. I think I have a product here. And the thing that's so cool is I kind of fell in love with it because I love my initial, like, my first big product took off was CF design school, you know, And I love that because it can take. It can allow anybody genuinely to make money online. It's so fun. And you make money online by helping other people make money. It's just like this beautiful gift that keeps giving. But I loved partnerships because there's just like this beautiful truth that you could do more together than you could do apart. And I just, like, it was just like, so meaningful for me to be like, oh, my gosh. Like, because we decided to work together, there's a result that neither of us could do separately. And it was just like, came alive to me. And so I loved, like, that concept on how to work with people. But I also didn't know, like, I don't know. I didn't know if it was just like, oh, I just had a good offer, or like, oh, maybe I was charismatic, like, I don't know. And so I started teaching other people, but I for real wanted to see if my framework would work for other people. So enter this video you saw. So my husband and I, we bought this house and we. It's a 1955 house and we loved it because the whole, like the back thousand square feet of it that makes it sound like it's a huge house. It's only a 2,000 square foot house, but half of it is glass. And we Were like. We just, like, fell in love with this random house. We literally, like, it is, like, in this, like, old cutie neighborhood. We were obsessed with our neighbors. But, like, you know when God's just, like, mind and heart, it was like, you were supposed to live here. And we, like, loved it, so we took it, and we're like, it'll be so romantic. We'll, like, redo the house. It. I. It was romantic, and it was insane. It was insanity. Like, I. My husband's like, let's do this again. I was like, should we? I don't know. Maybe we can, but we can't live in it at the same time. It was, like, too crazy. But.

[Russell Brunson]

But.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

So we have this house, but we finally finished the house, and, like, we were living in shambles. Like, we stripped everything down to the floorboards, like, everything. So when, by the time we finally had a house, like, it was the most amazing. You're like, is this the most beautiful house that has ever lit? Like, I'm like, I'll put up any mansion. And, you know, when you, like, put something in, it would be so fun. We, like, drive by, like, a huge house. Be like, our house is better. You know, it's, like, so funny. But anyway, so we had the sunroom, but again, because we, like, ripped it to shambles, like, we had no furniture. Like, and we're both coming from apartments. Like, we have furniture anyway, so we had to, like, buy furniture to furnish the house. So I was like, why don't I need to, like, prove that this joint venture concept is true? So why don't we just leave our house open? Because it was just like. It's basically, like 2000, basically open square feet because we just, like, knocked down every wall. And so it's kind of like an event center almost. I was like, why don't we just, like, have people pay to come here and I'll teach these concepts? And I decided to do it because I really wanted to see if it worked. So rather than people buying, like, hey, come to my house one time. They would buy, like, three sessions. So they'd come one to month, month one, month three, and month five. And then I had a second group that came month two, four, six. And so I'd be so, like, in month one, I'd be like, okay, this is what you need to do. Go do it. And then month three, how did it go? And then do this and that. And the whole purpose was to build an offer, and then can you actually go sell it via joint ventures anyway? And so we called them sunroom sessions. And like. And so this campaign that I, like, did was like, I'm burning everything to the ground flavor. And so essentially it was just like. Like, we're like, I used to be the funnel girl. Now we're starting on this venture. Like, and the reason I still love funnels, but it was just like, rolling, you know, like, it was what it was, and you, you know, your soul just calls the other thing. So it was running, like, we actually to have ads, we were doing joint ventures to. But like, it was living its life and it was fine. It was like, it's ready to build, like, the next step of the value ladder anyway. And so that's. I remember you messaged me. You were like, dope. You're like, don't bring your message. He's like, you could sell this. Like, you could sell, like, don't. And I was like, don't worry, I'm not selling. Like, I'm not doing that. I just remember saying, like, don't burn it down.

[Russell Brunson]

Good hook. Good story.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah. I was like, it's good. I got him, like, message. That's awesome. Anyway, so we did. We had people come, and I was telling back, we intentionally invited any and everyone. I wanted to have really established entrepreneurs and brand new entrepreneurs because I wanted to see where the framework broke. Because I just wanted to make sure if I was selling it, it worked for me. I just feel like I want to be really, really, really, really sure. Because if I'm really, really sure, then I can go on. I can pitch my face for days, but if I don't, then I feel like I'm lying. You know, it's like, it gets a little slimy. So I had people come, and it was awesome. It was so fun. First of all, I love doing events in my house because I just wake up and I didn't have any furniture. So it was like, guys, come on in. It was like, finally, our kitchen wasn't even done yet. Like, it was crazy. It was so fun that we just, like, catered food. It was so great. But we just had people come, and I was like, okay, step one, great. Step two, great. And it was really. It was really fun because of the people that came. We had 100% success rate for the people that did everything I said. And if you didn't or you tried to improvise or you tried to get crazy, they did not succeed. And so it was like, okay, great works. Love it. And anyway. But I think the reason it works is a lot of why all my other principles work. Like, my brain just, like, loves to find the patterns that work over and over and over and over and over and over again. And because when I can find it, then I'm like, oh, I can repeat it. And something about that makes myself feel calm. Like, I literally. Like, I don't have one right now, but when I was in. When I was in college, I had a personal assistant, and she'd, like, do everything for me. It was the best. Her name was Maddie. And I would just make like. So I'd make a standard operating procedure for everything. I'd be like, okay, like, every new season, I want. I need, like, six new. Six new outfits. You know, just freshen up the wardrobe. And I'd be like, this is exactly what I want to look like. Here's what I want you to model. Doodle. Let's go. This is my sizes. Great. Go. And it was done. And then, like, every. At the beginning of the week, every week, here's exactly what I want done. Great. Every, like, six months, this is what I want done on my car. Great. Done. And so it's just so nice. It's just like, I know it's done. I know. It's documented. It's taken care of. For those of you being like, this girl's insane. Yes, I know. Okay? And, sorry, it's just how my brain works. But anyway, and it's really interesting because I don't care if anybody else lives that way. I'm like, I shared a room all in college, and I'm like, girl, your side of the room is messy. Could care less, and mine will be pristine, you know? But anyway. But for me in business, like, if I can't understand the process, it gets, like, really overwhelming to me. So for things like building funnels or joint ventures, like, anything I want to sell, I really want to make sure that I know the process. And so again, we had people come to the sunroom. We tested it out. Like, anything that, like, didn't work, we ironed it out or. And oftentimes, you know, like, when you start pitch things, you're like, oh, I set the right thing, but you interpreted it the wrong way, so I need to say it a different way. And so, like, it was so fun. So over those six sessions, we ironed out how to teach it and how to say it and blah, blah, and then started teaching it to other people and having clients for other people. And anyway, it's been really, really fun to kind of learn, like, what's the best way to sell this and how does it work? But yeah, I love partnerships. It's amazing.

[Russell Brunson]

That's cool. What's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. I've got something really cool for you today from my friend Taylor Welch. Taylor spoke at our last Funnel hacking live because I wanted him to share a really cool concept about what he calls the revolving pricing method. And today he decided to sponsor the podcast to give you guys more access to the super cool strategy that you are going to love. It's something we've been implementing into our high end coaching program as well. And it is amazing. But to kind of give you some context about this offer he's making for you guys. As you may or may not know, a few years ago JPMorgan Chase did a study and guess what they found? They found that the average small business only has about 28 days of operating expenses in reserve. That's right, less than a month of cash on hands. Now, if you're like me, the idea of your business being one bad month away from disaster is enough to make your stomach drop. Am I right? Especially with how the economy's been lately, it's not the time to be gambling with your finances. So Taylor put together this book called the Revolving Pricing Method. And it's awesome. It helps you turn every client you close into a long term profit machine. We're not talking about one time paydays. We're talking about creating sustainable and real predictable income for the long haul. Now here's where it gets even better. Taylor put together an awesome exclusive deal just for you guys, my marketing secrets listeners. And if you go over to wealthyconsultants.com secrets, you can grab the revolving price method book and over $150 worth of bonuses. And get this all, it's at 70% off. And I promise you guys, as a customer of this, you are going to love it. So if you're serious about growing your business with real stability, this is the model you need to add into your funnels. So go over to wealthyconsultant.com secrets, grab your 70% off deal, and let's start turning your clients into long term revenue again. That's wealthyconsultant.com secrets. Do not miss out. Hey, this is Russell Brunson and I want to jump in really quick to share with you a new assessment I found out that is insanely cool. You guys know I'm obsessed with personality profiles and assessments, but this one is different because not only does it help you understand yourself, but more importantly, especially for us who are entrepreneurs. It helps us understand our employees, our teams, and get people sitting on the right seats in the bus so we can get more stuff done. I just had a chance to interview Patrick Lancioni, talking specifically about this new assessment they created called Working Genius. And the Working Genius is awesome. Like this test, I had actually blocked out an hour to take it because I was so excited for the, for the new assessment and it only took me like 10 minutes or less to get it done. Yet even though it takes only 10 minutes, like you can actually apply this immediately, I took it for myself. I had my team take it. And what's cool about it is from there we figured out exactly what people's working geniuses are. And that's important because if you're building a team or a company, you got to figure out make sure that you have first off the right people, but make sure the right people are sitting in the right seats on the bus. And this is what this assessment will teach you how to do. Now normally this assessment you can go to workinggenius.com and there's two GS in the middle workinggenius.com but I got you a 20% discount on the assessment which is only $25. So don't stress, it's not an expensive test at all. But you get 20% discount off when you put in the keyword secrets at checkout. So go to working genius.com again, two GS working genius, two GS in the middle workinggenius.com and then use promo code secrets, secrecy at checkout. Get 25% off but then go take the test again. It takes you 10 minutes, but even in a 10 minute session you will get something that is so insanely valuable to help you understand yourself, to make sure you're working in a spot that's going to be the most joy, number one. But then number two, it's going to make sure that you are with your teams, getting them in the right seats as well. So anyway, I love this assessment. Go check it [e-mail] and enter the promo code SECRETS for 20% discount. Take this test for yourself and for your team and I promise you will change the working dynamics amongst everybody and help your company to grow. Before we get into like some of the frameworks and how the process works, two questions prior, I'm going to step back. So you said you did $20,000 in sales of your own course and then you started doing joint venture. Do you remember like the first one or one that was like A very impactful one that you did. And what the numbers kind of look like.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Well, I'll tell you my very first one and then I'll tell you my next one. Number one and number two were the best. The best because they taught me the most. The number. The first one I did was with a girl named Lauren Golden. You know her. And she. I actually. I actually did a masterclass in our group and I didn't even pitch. But afterward, people liked the masterclass so much that I had like 10 to 15 people come and buy my program. And again, some of those first 20 sales. And so she messages me and she's like, hey, like, I want credit for this. She's like, why don't we just do it again? But actually pitch. And I was like, girl, love it. But I was so for. I had never done it before, but I was like, trying. I was like, I almost like, I was trying to do it. I was like, I'll do a masterclass. I'll do this. You know, I had like a ten step plan, and all of a sudden I went from like steps 2 to 10 already. Because she was like, let's just skip the steps ago. Like, yeah. So I didn't really know what I was doing, so I was like, okay, but I'll give you 90%. Is that insane? I was like, I'll give you 90% and I'll keep 10. Because I was just so afraid I was gonna whiff it. And I was like, that way if I fail, like, she can't be mad at me. Just baby Kath. And I was so scared. So. And so she was like, 90. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, you want me to be like a good case study for you? And I was like, for sure. That's what I did. Yeah, you know? And she was like, I mean, I don't care if you give me 90%. We have since renegotiated our contract, I will say that. But anyway, so we pitch and we ended up doing like, it was like 34, 35, 36 sales. And again, I kept mostly nothing of that because I gave it all away to her. But it was amazing where I was like, holy crap. I had just spent like six weeks really trying to get those first 20 sales. And then because she said yes to me and I just pitched 90 minutes in an afternoon and she had a warm group. Then I just made 36 sales. I was like, crap, this is awesome. So then I went to the next one and maybe it wasn't the next. There's a few in that. But the next one was with somebody also in your group named Doug Bouton. And so we do it with him. And this time, because I'm always trying to learn and apply, I was like, okay, great. I knew he had a group and I was like, I wonder if this is when I introduced something called tiered bonuses, where I was almost like, I wonder if I can get the group to sell for each other. So I go in, do the pitch. But then at the end I was like, okay, great, if 50 people or if 20 people buy, I'll unlock this bonus. If 50 people buy, I'll unlock THIS bonus. If 100 people buy, then I'll unlock this bonus. And it was just like a test because I was like, I'm not pitching to a cold audience. I'm pitching to a try. And so I like, I wonder if I can leverage that to like get them. Dude, it was. I gotta show you screenshots. It was crazy. Like, they'd be like, what number are we at? And they'd be like, so. So get your butt in this program. You've been talking about this for days. Like, what's our number? Oh, we're at 36. Come on, you guys. Like, let's go. And like the countdown happened and Doug and I are like, this is awesome. And so, like, I literally was like, man, if I make like 50 sales again, I'm like, just starting at this. I'm like a $50,000 launch in an afternoon, that's like what most people make in a year. I'm feeling good about that, right? And I paid $0 and I, I would almost always do 50, 50 split. It just kind of felt like it's just a no brainer. Like, it just felt easy. So I was like, okay, because then if I hit 50, it's 25, 25. Just again, free money. And. And then it was like, amazing. And all of a sudden, like, people are just like going and going. And I just put the hundred out there, like, just to see. I don't know, but I'm like, they're not going to get. But whatever, dude, they did it. We passed 100. So we made 120 grand on that pitch. And I was just like, what just happened? And it was just like this idea of like, okay, like, I recognize the nature of this pitch as I'm pitching to a tribe, which is like one of beautiful things also about a joint venture, right? Like, you're not. You're pitching to people that like each other, like commonly united and they just, like, kept tagging each other, and they'd be like, we need seven more sales. We need six. And, like, literally people are on, like, being, like, tagging people, like, figure, I'll.

[Russell Brunson]

Give you a loan.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Like, I was like, this is awesome. This is amazing. So then that was the joint venture. I was like, this is the coolest thing. And then the next. I got to tell you the third one, too, because then the next one, I did one with a guy named Spencer Mecham, you know, him too. And it was actually Spencer's idea. I wish I was smart enough to come up with this. Where we pitched, and it went so great. We did 25 sales, 26 sales. And it went so great that he was like, hey, like, how fast did you say people get results? And I was like. I was like, 15 to 20 hours. And before they make their first sales, like, why don't you want just, like, come back in a few weeks and just, like, show people that did it? And I don't know, maybe we make a few more sales. I was like, crap, dude. That's amazing. So I was like, yes. So I just, like, go. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just, like, screenshotting people's results.

[Russell Brunson]

We go back in bought from his.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

That had bought from his group. Yeah. So when I pitch in his group, those 26 people, we followed them. I took screenshots of all the results. I went back two weeks later into his group, and I was like, I'm just gonna try this repitch thing, and it's so fun. I'm telling you what, repitches are the most fun thing, because you just get a braggart, you just gotta brag about, like. Like, everybody put in the chat, how awesome is Susan? Like, blah, blah. And if in the way that I structured my course, which I 10 out of 10 recommend everybody do it this way is I broke it up into, like, mini challenges that people could do. So when they did challenge one, they earned badge one. When they do challenge two, they earned badge two, which is awesome because my course had nine badges. And because I had nine badges, like, if you think of a typical course, it's like, okay, great. You start at the beginning, and then at the end, you get a testimonial if they get the result. But because I had nine badges, there were nine different places where they were taking screenshots that they were making progress to the result. So I basically got nine testimonials per each person, if that makes sense. So even if somebody like, hadn't made a sale or hadn't, like, reached the end result in those 10 to 15 hours. Let's say the only thing they did was badge number one, which was they signed a contract that said, like, I'm in. I would still use it because I'd be like, oh, my gosh, Like. Like, Jerry, he signed a contract, you guys. He started, like, how many of you guys have, like, wanted to start something? You just don't. And you don't. And you don't. But, like, look at Jerry. The man signed a contract. He's in the program, he's working hard. And, like, from a. Jerry means the world to me. This hypothetical Jerry. But, like, Jerry without the badge system, he'd be nothing to me. Like, he'd done nothing. Right? But because you, like, set these many milestones, then all of a sudden, this, like, bragging session. You can brag about the people that made money. You can brag about the people that are three quarters of the way through the program, halfway through the program, because they are earning different badges. So I would just go through, and I would just be like, if we had those 26 people buy, I just showed the progress of each of those 26 people. Some of them had made money. Some of them were on badge six, Some were on badge for some badge one, some badge seven. Right? And I went through. And then at the end, like, the transition into the repitch is basically just, like. The only reason I could figure out why you wouldn't buy is because you thought it was too good to be true. So Here are literally 26 people that purchased two weeks ago that are already getting results.

[Russell Brunson]

So you waiting for.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah, so do you want to come? And then. And so I'd be like. So I was talking with Spencer, and he had the crazy idea we should open this thing back up. So we decided to open it back up for one more, like, three more days or whatever. And then I would just go through the entire stack over again. And the lowest we ever did was an additional 25% of sales. And with Spencer, we. That we did 100. So we made an additional 26 sales because we. It's like, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And so I just, like. And so, like, it's like, yes, like, this concept, like, you have an. You have a product, you have an audience. And, like, finding the right one is magic. And then these other principles of leveraging the fact that you're pitching to a tribe through, like, tiered bonuses, through repitches, like, Made this concept of joint ventures just lethal for us. And anyway, so fun. Loved it.

[Russell Brunson]

So cool. All right. How many guys listen right now are excited about joint ventures? I wish I could see all your faces, but gets me fired up and I'll tell one story and then I want to jump into process. But when we launched clickfunnels, a lot of people don't know this. I didn't actually buy, I think it was almost, almost two years in before we bought our first ad for ClickFunnels.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Two years.

[Russell Brunson]

It was 100%. The first years was all driven off the joint ventures. And so what our strategy was is I would do a webinar with somebody and we'd pay them 40% commission. And then. But we had a two tier affiliate program. So I would do the, do the webinar with them and then I tried to pay the person as fast as possible. So we do a webinar on Thursday. We close down, you know, Sunday at midnight. So Monday morning I'm sending him a check for 40 grand or 50, whatever they just got, right? So here's the check. Thanks so much for promoting, by the way. We have a two tier affiliate program and we pay 10% on second tier. So if you have any friends who would also like a big check like you just got, we'll give you 10% of all of them. They're like, are you serious? And so all of a sudden they'd get 8, 10, 12 people. They email out, hey, I just run this webinar. Crushed. I got 40 grand off of most people. They all contact us back.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Boom.

[Russell Brunson]

We go and then run the webinar to all five of their lists, right? And then that person got 10% from all their friends list and they get 40%. I wire them the money, wire, wire, wire, ask them the same question. And boom. And I did. I think, I can't remember 70 and 80 webinars live. The first year of clickfunnels off that. It started with me doing one webinar that turned into 80 webinars that took us from zero to over 10 figures in sales. And then year number two, we did the same thing, except for we evergreened them. And it was just, we would have the joint venture partner record an intro and I took a recording of me that I'd already done the webinar a million times. I knew it word for word. And we would just edit the video, put their bumper on it, make an evergreen funnel for it. And they drive traffic and then they have evergreen funnel that now would sell the Same thing. And we just kept doing it and doing it. And that was. That's how you grew clickfunnels. And two years in. Right. We should probably buy some ads now. We've done a webinar with everybody who's got a list at this point. So, yeah, it was all joint venture. So I 100% agree that's, like, the best way to do it. But it's scary because how do you ask them, like, hey, I want to be your friend. We promote my stuff. Like, so I want to talk about your process, because I think it's brilliant. And, yeah, I'm not sure exactly where you want to go with it, but I'd love to break down what people should be looking at if they're like, okay, I want to join ventures. I want to grow and scale company this way. Like, what's the. What's the path?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah, well. And here's what I learned. Yeah. As we go through this again, my, like, systems brain. Cause I was like, dang, how do you. Because it feels like, hey, why don't you let me come to your audience that you spend a lot of time and money to build, to pitch my product where they'll give me money, and now they're in my ecosystem. It sounds like such a slimy, like, terrible thing. So I was like, gosh, like, how do you do this? Right? And. And so what I realized is that. What I realized is that at the end of the day, what my potential collaboration partner wants, my potential venture partner wants is the same thing as me. They want sales, they want status, right? Like, let's say I partner with you, right? Like, we are partnering right now with the self funnel thing. So what do I get? I get sales, right. I actually get money. The next thing, I get a status because my name's now attached to yours. So thank you for that. Great vibes. Right. The next thing I get is impact. And impact is just helping people change their lives. And then the next thing is time. Like, I'm able to do more because we're partnering together, so more with less. And so I was like, that's what I want. And I was like, they probably all want the same thing too. So I was like, so rather than me coming in and being, like, kind of needy and being like, wait, can I use your group? Like, blah, blah. I was like, can I present this opportunity, this offer to them in a way where it's like, oh, if I say yes to Catherine, I'm also going to get sales. I'm also going to get Status, I'm also going to get impact and I'm also going to get my time back. And so I started to think through, like, well, what could that look like? And I wasn't Russell Brunson. I'm still working my way to become Russell Brunson. Numbers wise, you could be Russell Brunson. I know you're like, you've been in the game for 25 years and I'm at number eight. So I'm like, I still, still got time. I still got time, so watch out. But that being said, that being said, I was like, I was just a nobody, right? Like, nobody knew who I was. I was just, you know, had a thousand and twelve followers on Instagram. I don't even know that much more right now. But like, but I was like, how can I do it? So I was like, okay, let me like walk through again. I want sales, I want status, I want impact and I want time. That's what I write those down.

[Russell Brunson]

Those are the four right down.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Sales, status, impact, and time. That's what they want, or that's what I want and that's what they want too. That's what every business owner wants. So I was like, okay, how, let's start with sales. How can I provide them sales? And what I thought is, I was like, okay, if I can come in and provide a complimentary product, right? Not a competing product. Because if I come in and I pitch something that's a competitor of theirs, I'm not giving them sales, I'm taking away customers. But can I find an audience where if I came in and pitched my product, I could actually extract more buyers from their list. So like, one example I can give, because people know your audience, right? Like, you teach funnels, but you don't like, dive deep into like, oh, here's a product on, like, how to do ads. You have traffic secrets, but you kind of teach, like, here are the true principles. But like, you don't have a course on ads. You just like, don't. And so what? So when I came to funnel hacking live, I like went through and taught, like, here's the nuances of joint ventures. And so because of that, right, More people might have come to this funnel event that maybe wouldn't have come because they were interested in traffic, that they're like, Russell's not going to teach that, but he has a friend who's teaching that. So I'm going to come now to Russell's event. So, like, I might go into a group, like, again, like yours. Like, they teach Funnels. I'm not really going to buy Russell's funnel stuff. Like, I'm here. I don't know. I got here, I bought a freebie. But, like, but I am interested in traffic. And so somebody that you weren't monetizing before is now monetized. Because I'm offering the next step, right? Like, a complimentary product. And so that gave a big clue to, like, oh, these are the types of audiences that I want to try and partner with people where they're typically step one and I'm step two. So the product that I did the best with with joint ventures, right, Was the first one that I did was just this funnel product, right? Funnel design. So I was like, okay, well, who step one? And if I'm step two, like, who's a. Who's a group of people that need a funnel? So I was like, oh, anybody does any kind of ads, right? Like, if they do Facebook ads, the ads need to go somewhere. They need to go to traffic. So I had a ton of success partnering with people that had gathered Facebook groups, email lists, blah, blah, blah, around this concept of Facebook ads. And I was like, oh, well, then what about YouTube ads? Oh, then what about Google Ads? Great. Like, all sudden. Because, like, it makes total sense. Like, they don't teach funnels, but I am the next step. And so I wasn't competitive. I was complimentary. And so they were able to actually provide an amazing service to their audience. All the while, they're making sales from something they would never make sales from because they're never going to make a product on funnels, right? And so all of a sudden I was like, dang, if I can go be complimentary and just find audiences where I'm not competing with them, but they come first in the customer journey, and I come next in the customer journey, then I will be able to bring sales because I can extract buyers that they wouldn't typically extract. And that made, like, a ton of sense to people. They were like, oh, no, that makes sense. Or like, you know, people have been asking for that. Yeah, sure, let's do it. Or like, that makes sense that it's the next step. And so then we come to the next. The next tier of, like, Kate, that's how I can get them sales. Even though I'm a nobody, because I offer a complimentary product, I can extract buyers. And then it's like, okay, great. How can I give them status? And there's two ways. Number one, it's so crazy. Like, if you do bring in a Complimentary product. All of a sudden, they're like, the good guy. Like, thank you, Russell. Like, gosh, I've been needing help for this. Like, thank you for having cool friends, you know? But then the other thing is, I like to call having a breaking news method. So the reality is, like, with the CF design school program that I had, there are a bajillion product courses out there teaching funnel design. They're just like, are. And that actually is a good thing. It means that the market wants it, but it's like, okay, how do I stand out? And so what I call it is a breaking news method. So how can I be so strikingly different from everybody else that I'm kind of breaking news that it's. It's like, oh, I'm not getting on the news because I'm a big name. I'm getting on the news because who.

[Russell Brunson]

What.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

How are you so different? You know? And so what I would do, and when I developed my product, I was just like, okay, can I help people get this result of funnel design? Right? In a way that just basically rejects all the things that everybody else says that they have to do. So other people were like, oh, you need coding, you need Photoshop, you need graphic design skills. And what I said is, oh, you can get that same result without coding, without Photoshop, without graphic design skills. And so what happened is, not only did I become breaking news, but I was able to get picked over other people because instantaneously, they became irrelevant, my competitors, because they're like, oh, you need these things. And I'm like, oh, no, there's not. And here's proof. And so even though my competitor maybe had 10 years experience with me and made way more money than me and a big following than me, they were old news because they aren't breaking news. And so all sudden, it was of value for this no name Catherine to come into their group to teach this new thing because it was this breaking news method, you know, so. So for a lot of people too, like, they even asked, like, how do you keep speaking on these big stages, blah, blah, and like, you don't even have that big of a font. I'm like, breaking news method. Like, figure out. Because the reality is, it's like, let's say Oprah also taught how to sell funnels, right? Or even do joint ventures or whatever. Like, if Oprah taught that and I taught that, and my method was like, oh, I'm like, Oprah, just a little different. I mean, I would pick Oprah over me. Oprah's Oprah, you know, but if Oprah's like, I help people sell funnels, but you have to go through graphic design college or Catherine teaches funnels, but you don't have to do it. And you have to do coding in Photoshop too. I will get picked over Oprah for that particular skill set. Right.

[Russell Brunson]

Like you think about, you call it breaking news method, but I know our world. I don't feel like people do this, but when I got started, I was trying to figure out how to get on tv. Like I wanted to get on Oprah, I wanted to get on your Shark Tank, all different shows, whatever, back in the day. And so I hired a publicist and stuff like that. And you look like what a publicist does and obviously you know this. But the publicist's job is to take the boring thing you do and figure out a cool spin on it. The news is going to care because the news stations, they all get, you know, 500 pitches a day. So it's like, what's the breaking news? What's the thing that's gonna be like, ooh, that, that would, that would pop off on a headline at news tonight at 5:00. And that's how, you know, I had a really good publicist and got me a ton of shows because they just took. Took the ordinary thing I did, but figure out a way to spin it where it's like it was breaking news. And all of a sudden, literally I was trying to get a whole bunch of news clips so I could start pitching a bigger news thing. So she lined it up every weekend I was on a local news station somewhere around the country. I was just flying thing to thing. And she's had different hooks she was practicing or trying out there. But that's the same thing here, right? I look at me at this point, I mean, we get hundreds a month of people trying to join ventures with me. And I get everything from boxes to packages to, to people showing up randomly our office, to emails to DMs, to, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? And it's tough because it's like, same thing. Publicist, they're getting 500 things and like, they gotta build a show. They need attention. How is what you're doing bringing that attention? Like, what's the hook? What's the story? That's, that's unique, you know? So I think looking at that lens of like, yeah, you're pitching to a joint venture partner, but tank, you're pitching the public or the producer at the news station that's gotta find out something tonight that's gonna get people to flip the TV on, click on the link, whatever it is. Like, what's that? That thing?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

So anyway, yeah, no, I love it. So, like, when we're trying to give them sales, like, the thing that you really want to nail down with your product is your, like, tangible result. What's the result? I provide people. Because if you can get really clear on that, then you can very clearly show them, like, no, you're here in the customer storyline and I'm here on the customer storyline. Like, we're not competitors. I'm actually, like, such a gift to your people. Right? The next step and then the next thing is get very clear on your. You call it a vehicle, right? What's your new. What's your breaking news method? Right. How am I different from everybody else? Because that's. Because they might see, like, the first thing. They're like, oh, you're right. You are the next step. But then what you don't want them to do is be like, I should get a funnel design person. I'm not picking you. Right? Like, that's what you don't want.

[Russell Brunson]

Thanks for inducing the idea, but I'm gonna pick that.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah, I'm gonna pick. And so what you do is you also need to make sure you have a breaking news method. Say, hey, not only do you need this, I'm exactly the girl you should pick. Which then leads us to impact, right? So at this point, they might be considered. And I'll tell you too, like, how you can actually, like, tell them all these things. I almost, like, consider them like coins. Like, you need to pay them a sales coin. You have to, like, pay them the proper, like, compensation for getting access to their audience. So, like, you pay them the sales coin by showing them where they fit in the storyline, you pay them the status coin by having a breaking news method. But then they also want to have impact, right? They want to make sure that they don't, like, bring someone into their group and it's a major dud, right? That's not going to help. So what do you need to have impact is you need to help people actually take action. So I like to make sure that my breaking news method actually is, like, very step by step. Like, this is what you need to do. Because if it's step by step, people will take the steps and then also have case studies like, this works for more than just me. Because people need to have faith that they actually can do it. It's like, not just like, this one thing. And so then the final thing is time. And this I think is really important because I'll have like a lot of like service providers or coaches want to be like, oh, I want to do joint ventures. And there's like a million recipes of joint ventures that you can concoct up. But the reality is, is that the most profitable joint ventures are when you do it with a mass distributable product. Right? Like if you have a course that you can sell infinite value, infinite amount of. Because that's like very alluring to the partner. If you come in, you're like, oh, like I sell Facebook ads, but I have three openings for clients. They're like, well, then I cap it out. Three, like, meh, I don't want to do that. But if you're like, oh, I sell Facebook ads, course. And if we sell 4,000 units today or 26,000 units, all the better, right? Like, nothing breaks. That's like really alluring. And that's where we can pay them this time coin, right? Where you get more for. You do more with your time than you. You're doing now more with your time with me than you could have before. And they don't have to fulfill. So kind of having those things in place, like, you're very clear on your results that can pay them with like sales because they understand how they fit in the storyline and the customer storyline. You need very clear in your breaking news method. That's how you should pick me instead of somebody else. Making sure you have a step by step method so that people actually get results and they are praised for bringing you in rather than like, oh, you like pitching on this product and Katherine was a dud. And then you make sure you have some sort of mass distributable product and I might add on there too, making sure your sales pitch works. It's really awkward if you come in and you pitch. I've never had, I haven't had that happen. I can imagine. Right, like, because you sucked. Right, like, and, and that's your fault. Like, you should do the work necessary. So whenever I tell people like, oh, like, can I start joint ventures? I'm like, do you have, can you get people results? And do you have a, do you have a pitch that works? And usually if you get to 20 sales you got there, like that's really all you need. And I say 20 sales because that's when I started. Like, your pitch is good enough. You got 20 people to say yes, and then you can go from there.

[Russell Brunson]

What's up everyone, this is Russell. And fall is officially in the air, which means crisp mornings, pumpkin flavored everything. And my favorite part is switching out those shorts and T shirts for these cooler weather essentials. Right now, I'm all about finding the perfect cozy cashmere sweater and a sharp leather jacket. And for that, I've got one word for you. Quince. Quince offers affordable, high quality essentials that belong in every wardrobe, whether you're upgrading for the season or just adding some timeless staples. Think luxurious Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just $60. Yes, you heard me right. I know that because I literally just bought two. And pants that are so comfortable you'll want to wear them everywhere. What I love most about quints is how they cut out the middlemen. They work directly with responsible factories using premium materials, which means you get incredible pieces for 50 to 80% less than other luxury brands. Let me tell you, now that I'm officially wearing some of their gear, it feels every bit as high end as the designer stuff, but at a fraction of the price. In fact, that sweater I told you about earlier that I snagged, it's super soft. It fits perfectly. It looks like I paid hundreds of dollars, but nope, it was just 60 bucks. If you're ready to upgrade your fall wardrobe without breaking the bank, head over to Quince.com Clix for free shipping and 365 day return policy. That's Q U I N C E.com Clix Seriously, free shipping and a whole year to return. You've got nothing to lose and a whole bunch of really cool cashmere to gain. So go treat yourself to some wardrobe upgrades [e-mail] click hey, it's Russell Brunson. And if you're anything like me, you understand that in business, time isn't just money, it's everything. When you're trying to build your dream team, the last thing you want to do is waste time sorting through a mountain of resumes. But what if I told you there's a smarter way instead of searching for candidates you can match with them instantly? Thanks to. Indeed Indeed is the hiring platform you absolutely need in your corner. We're Talking about over 350 million visits each month from all around the world. That's a huge pool of potential talent. And here's the best part. Their matching engine connects you with the right candidate in no time. Imagine skipping the busy work and going straight to the people who fit your job description like a glove. Sounds like a dream, right? And it's not just about Saving time. It's about getting the results that matter. In fact, 93% of employees say Indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other job sites. And that's pretty incredible. And I want to tell you, I've been through the hiring process myself. There were times it was slow and frustrating, and I wish I'd known about Indeed back then. It would have made everything so much easier. But here's where it gets even better. Indeed is constantly learning and improving with over 140 million qualifications and preferences feeding their matching engine every day. The more you use it, the better it gets. It's like having a personal hiring assistant who's always on top of things, making sure you get the best of the best. So don't wait around. Join the 3.5 million businesses worldwide. They're already using Indeed to find top talent fast. And here's something special just for the listeners of the Marketing Secret show. You can get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com clicks. Just head over to Indeed.com clicks right now and let them know you heard about it on this podcast. Trust me, you're not going to regret it. Terms and conditions may apply. Need to hire, then you need Indeed.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Anyway, so when you have those things, then all of a sudden it's not like, oh, like, can I like, you know, like what's it called? Mooch. Can I mooch off your audience to pitch my product? It's like, no. Like, you'd actually kind of crazy to say no to me because I have a product that your people need. Your step one. I'm step two and I'm better than everyone else at it. Or different as you would say, right? Breaking news method. I can help your people get results faster. I have a step by step method which guarantees whatever, as much as I can their success. And your earning value is infinite because it's mass distributable. Like, would you want to partner together on this? That's like a pretty alluring offer. Rather than like, hey, like you want to be friends and maybe I can use your list and blah blah, blah, or like I'm going to send you a million gifts. That's the other thing I don't like about gifts either. I love gifts. If anyone wants to send me a gift, I'm mad about it. But if you send someone gifts for the intention of partnering with them, it feels really transactional. Like all sudden you're like, oh. Like it almost feels like you owe you you owe them something. Or like, oh, like, when are they going to come in with their big ask, you know, like, like, yeah, like, here it comes. And you're like, oh, like, that's not like how a fun relationship works. But again, like, that guy that sent me that Jesus stuff, if he would have been like, catherine, you do this, I do this. I can extract more bias from your audience. Sales done. And here's why I'm different from everybody else. Breaking news method. I think we should partner together. Plus case studies. Here's all the people I've helped before do it because I have a step by step method and I sell during a course so we can sell infinite amount of things. Would you want to move forward on this? Also? I'm like, hey, let's chat. That actually makes a lot of sense. It's a very sexy offer.

[Russell Brunson]

And then someone can least say yes or no too, because they know what you're doing.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I'm like, I, like, still haven't even said thank you, which is rude of me. But I, like, haven't even, because I'm like, oh, I don't know what the conversation is going to be.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, what's the intentions here?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I don't know. Like, I don't know. And again, I'm like, very grateful. And if he's listening to this, I'm like, very grateful for the gift. But the reason I haven't responded is because I don't know the intention of the gift. Like, I just don't know. But that's what I love about this. Like, step by step. So often with joint ventures, people just like, don't know how to approach it, which is why there's all this, like, really fluffy, I think, kind of fake advice, because people don't actually know what to do, which is like, go to networking groups, make friends, do this, blah, blah. And the reality is pounce on them.

[Russell Brunson]

And ask them to.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

You're always going to have better conversions with a warm audience. Always. Whether you're trying to sell a joint venture or sell a $17 ebook, you're always going to have better because they already trust you and like you. But the reality is that, like, okay, well then, great. How do we make that connection quickly so that then we can present an offer to them. Right. I think that so often it's like, oh, well, you need to be in networking group and you need to be friends with them for a year before you ask anything. For me, warming them up is just like, oh, you want to be on my podcast? And then literally immediately after the podcast, if it makes sense, for me to do a joint venture with them. I will pitch them on the idea right there. Why? Because what's a sale? Somebody's in pain and I have a remedy. So, hey, you have an audience that is in this pain. You just told me on your podcast, you do this. I'm the next step. Like, did you know that I do that? Would you want to partner together on that? Let me tell you why I'm the best. I have the breaking news method. I have step by step. We've helped clients do this, this and this. And it's actually in a product. We do a 50, 50 split on the back. Is that something you'd like to move forward on? Let them say yes or no to you. Right? But I think. I think we just like build this whole thing up, Partnerships, all this thing. And we're like, oh, we gotta fly these people out. We gotta schmooze them, we gotta wine them and dine them. And like, you know, there's so much status and ego, like, the higher and higher up people get. And I get it, like, it's just what it is. And people do create barriers and all these different things. But what I love about partnerships and what I think, like, God was good to help me discover is they are so accessible to the beginner. They're so profitable for the advance because they have huge lists. But, man, people are sleeping on. Like, some of my best joint ventures were with people that had a Facebook group of 500 people. Because if somebody has a Facebook group of 500 people, those 500 people are like loyalists because they're. Why are you following this no name? It's because they, like, love. They're like one of the OGs, you know, foundation, which means they're even. I would, I would dare call them a hot audience rather than a warm. And so, like, my conversions would be crazy. So people are like, oh, well, I don't want to pitch them. They have a tiny group. I'm like, go to the tiny groups. Like. Cause I would just, you know, make like 10, 30, $50,000. Just like, you know, like that. It's a 90 minute pitch. So awesome. And so that's what I love about this concept is like, yes, the concepts still apply at like, very, very high levels, which again, like, we've had clients in the eight figures, nine figures. But the reality is that the framework works at the beginning. But you need to make sure that you can prove you have a tangible result. You're a breaking news method. You actually have case studies. You can prove that You've helped people step by step and it's in mass distributable. And if you have those things, then you're. I call it like joint venture ready. And so anyway, but I think it's really cool and I think where people can go wrong sometimes is they try to approach a joint venture without being joint venture ready. They're just like, oh, well, no, you should just do it. It's like, yeah. Or even like a lot of like established entrepreneurs like you. Right. Or like, whoever. Like, they're like, no, like, I'm good, I'm good. So like I'm just gonna pitch. And so they try to do a joint venture with like a brand new product, but they've never pitched it before. And I'm like, just prove it once.

[Russell Brunson]

Waste that opportunity.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yes.

[Russell Brunson]

Because that's like, you may have one shot.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Exactly. And because they're like, oh, the first time I'm pitching this is to a joint venture audience and I kind of whiffed it. Then all of a sudden, like, like you said, like, if you can nail it for the first one, then you can get them to refer. And you can get them to refer. So I always like to like, even if you're the best marketer in the world, you. Right. Like practice it one time so you know, and then you can make sure that you. You nailed on the other one.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah. So I'm curious for you. Just thinking about the tangible side of like, okay, I understand the principles. How do you actually message those people? Like, what are you doing? Because I start to feel like, am I sending an email? Am I showing up at their house? Like, what's like, yes. How do you have that conversation? Like, what are some of the easy ways to do that?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah, it's actually very simple. It's a two step formula. You want to hear it? Number one, get their attention. Number two, present your coin. I call them coins, your sales coin, status coin, impact coin, and time coin. So what I like to do, like to get their attention. I did this to you.

[Russell Brunson]

What did you do? My attention.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

You seriously did. Okay, well, and here's the thing that I have to point out. You when I tell you what I did to get Russell's attention, people are gonna be like, that's so simple. He must be getting hundreds of those a day. Let me ask you this. How many people have sent you a funnel that looks like that or a request that looks like that?

[Russell Brunson]

All the pieces of yours was multifaceted.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

Right?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah. Like, here's the thing. Like, I think People think that they're like sending stuff like that all the time. And it's actually not that common. Like people will send you gifts or other stuff, but like a direct pitch like that, not as much. So anyway, so what I did for Russell is I was like, okay, how do I get his attention? I'm like, what does this man love? Funnels. Done. And what am I good at? Funnel design. So I just built a funnel that said, hey, Russell, I made this video for you. And then in the video, what did I do? I was like, hey, here's the storyline. You're here, I'm here. Your funnel.

[Russell Brunson]

Remember you like your funnel. Hackers are great, but they're missing out on one thing. They need funnel design.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I was like, your funnel hackers are in desperate need of funnel design. I was even kind of bold. I was like, is that being rude? I don't know, but I meant it. So sorry. But here we are. So it worked out great. Okay, anyway, so you're funnel and I teach funnel design. Right. So tangible result, you're here, I'm here. I can extract these new buyers. Right? And then the next thing I literally said in the video is. And on the page was. And I do it via no. No coding, no Photoshop, no graphic design skills. Here's my breaking news method. So yes, I need funnel design. Here's why you should pick me. Then I said, I do it in a six step science, step by step. I showed case studies. Here's all the people I've helped before I sell it in a program called Sea of Design School. And then I just direct ask. I would love to present this to your audience. We'll do a profit share from the sales that come from this great. Do you want a partner? And so that's what I did to you. And here's what I want to point out is that the reality is that you just have to get their attention and then present the coins. So some people are like, oh, I'm not good at funnels. That's okay. Do it in a video. You could do it in a slide deck. You can do it in a PDF.

[Russell Brunson]

You joined, was it 2ccx and you were at an event and you brought a box that, that got me hooked to actually go watch the funnel.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yes. Because he like saw the funnel. He was like, really cool. But I'm, I'm writing my traffic secrets book. I'm a little busy. He's like, I'll follow up. So I'm like trying not to be creepy, you know, and I Don't even know the rules of joint ventures yet, right? Like, I'm just like trying. I don't even know. And so, like one week passes, two weeks, four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, I'm like, this dude's gonna forget about me. And I'd like, sent like a few follow up messages. If you're just leaving me on red. It hurt, I want you to know, but it's what it was, the reality of the situation. So I was in one of your coaching programs, but again, you, like, didn't know me, but so what I did again, what's the framework? Get their attention, pay them the coins, right? So I was like, how can I get this dude's attention without being annoying, right? So what I did is I just like made a box. I put his. Your face on it. And I put my face on it. And then when it was just like so loud, it was like so colorful, whatever. I made sure I like sat in the first round and just like put the box up so when you're on stage, you could see it. And then when you had a break, I just like walk the box up. And I was, hey, man, this is for you. And you were like, what the crap is this thing? But when you opened it up, it wasn't like some random gif. What was it? I like literally had a QR code to a video that said, russell, you're here in the story. Like, you haven't followed up. And I literally just called it out too. I was like, hey, like, it's been six weeks. You left me unread. I don't know how long is long. But you said you're gonna follow up. But I mean, come on, man. So I was like, if this is too soon, sorry, but I'm talking to you. And I was just like, normal about it, you know. And so anyway, and I said, you're here in the storyline. I'm here. Your funnel leaders need this, I need this. This is my breaking news method. These are the results I've got. And here's my product. I'd love to do a profit split from you. And anyway, and so it's just like, get their attention, show them the coins. Get their attention, show the coins. And it's really interesting because, like, you try to go after someone like you, right? Like I call you like a tier a person, right? Like, I'm gonna need to go to a little bit more length to maybe get your attention. Whereas these joint venture groups or these Facebook groups have 500 people in them or a thousand or even 10,000. Oh my gosh. Depending on like where you're at in business. All subjective. Are you ahead of me or behind me? Like, who cares? But like a lot of people will see you and be like, oh my gosh, Katherine's ahead of me in business. And so they're just happy to receive a Facebook message, right? Or if I just go live, like, hey, so and so, like I just saw your group would be amazing. I had this crazy idea. I think between what you do and I do, there's like amazing room to collaborate. I kind of have an idea for something really cool. Can I walk you through it? That's my get their attention. And then they're like, yeah, sure. Like, let's chat. I'm on a zoom. What do I talk to on Zoom storyline. You're here, I'm here. Here's my breaking news method. Here's this, here's this. So like so often it's like, oh, I have to do this whole shebang. I have to do this whole fun. I have to make this whole video. And again, for people like you, I had to get creative on how to get your attention. But again, we just sleep so often on these smaller groups or these mid sized groups when they're customers gathered ready to buy that just want them there.

[Russell Brunson]

I remember when I got started because I first learned about joint ventures, man, 20, whatever, years ago. And I remember seeing the big names. So like Joe Vitale, Tony Robbins, I had the name. So I made my list of these people. I remember I sent them all messages and like, no one responded. I was like devastated. I kept sending messages. I'm like, why? And then I started getting angry. I'm like, these people think they're too good for me. Like, what's wrong? And like, don't they remember? It was like when they were, you know, I had all the attitude stuff that, that I had and stuff. And then I remember by the time there's this new guy that popped up. His name's Mike Fil and he had just done a little launch. It wasn't huge, but he had. I. I saw him. He made. He obviously he just sold something. Someone promoted it. So he's a new guy. So I messaged him and he responded right back on my, like this guy, he wrote me back like, oh my gosh. And then I was like, hey, Mike, I saw your product. I bought a copy. It's so cool. And I was like, I have this product over here.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

He looked at mine.

[Russell Brunson]

He's like, that product's awesome. He's like. He's like, I just got a new list. Can I email for you? I'm like, I didn't even ask him. I'm like, yes. You know, and so he promoted it. And then when he promoted it, then we got on the phone, we're talking. He's like, oh, have you met Gary Ambrose? And so he named three or four people. Like, no. And so he introduced me, and it was like we all were at this little level right here. And back then, all of us, you know, my list at the time was 217 people, so it was tiny.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

217. Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

I still remember. Very specific. And that's how big mine was. And, like, but we had. There's four or five. We were all this level, right? And I remember we were talking, like, yeah, I tried to get so. So no one responded back. But we're all this level, son. We all started doing these little promos back and forth. And what happens, like, all of us started, like, getting more successful, and then, like, there's this next tier of people that, like, all of a sudden, like, one of us broke into that tier. And then we introduced, and all of a sudden we're all this tier. And then the next year, and eventually Tony Robbins called me. I didn't call him eventually Joe Vitale, like, because they kept. See, like, they saw our group coming up, and they're like, oh, these are the up and comers. And they started reaching back down to leverage our status. But it was. It was. It was understanding that. And, like, I think for a lot of people, it's like, don't freak out if you can't get ahold of Russell Brunson. Like, that's nothing. Like, I have people all the time. Like, I made a dream 100 Russell, but it's a dream one, and you're the only one. I'm like, you failed then.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah, you don't get it.

[Russell Brunson]

Get to me. Yeah, get the people down here that are. That are one step above you, and they start doing there, and then you'll. Your list will go, and your success and your influence, your status will grow. And then it.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

And I think, too, that, like, you bring up a really good point. I think with your story of, like, growing and growing, like, people are like, oh, I made a list, and it's you, right? It's like, you missed the point. Because I think how they're trying to use you is not the way we talked about. They're trying to use you as, like, a silver bullet. Like, if Russell promotes my Stuff, everything's free. And it's like, well, you haven't. You don't have the currency, the sales coin, the status coin, the impact coin, the time coin required to leverage Russell. So at that point, it becomes that, like, transactional, like, oh, I'm just gonna mooch off of Russell. Right? But when you are, like, be where you're at, it's like, so amazing. Be where you at and, like, do grow. And, like, some people are like, well, I don't even know anybody with a Facebook group. Here's what I. Here's what's, like, the most amazing thing. Like, some. Also my best pitches have been because I went live on somebody's personal profile page. They didn't even have a group, like, but they have an audience. And you just go. So, like, if you're just, like, trying to figure it out and start, like, these principles apply the name of the game. You have a product and can you leverage somebody else's audience? And if they are complimentary, then it's a gift to that audience, you know? But, yeah, I just. It was a. I think it was a gift for me. Like, I love too, that you start with 217 people. Like, I just. I didn't know. Nobody knew who I was. So I couldn't leverage status the way people leverage status. I couldn't leverage sales the way that people. I had to, like, really get smart about the marketing of it to be, like, why would somebody want to partner with little old me? And it's because the product I have and the way I deliver it is lethal. And that's what I think makes this game really accessible. Because if you really are an expert in your craft, like, the way that we teach joint ventures and partnerships, what we'd like to say is that it allows the people that deserve the microphone to be on the stage. Because if you actually have a product that works, then you're going to be able to book these things and you're going to be able to skip the line. But if you don't, I mean, I'm telling you what, you pitch a bad product, I mean, it dies fast because it's all in reputation, right? Anyway, so I love that.

[Russell Brunson]

I want to add one more thing, too that's interesting that I want people to also know is that, like, sometimes you're a lot. Not sometimes. Most of the time you pitch someone and they'll say no, or it's not going to work the way you want it. And you're actually a great example because you pitched me on promoting the Webinar. And I've never promoted a webinar. Right. And now we know each other. Did we say six years, eight years?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Which Rude Russell? No, I don't remember.

[Russell Brunson]

Sorry.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah, but think about a long time.

[Russell Brunson]

And so like you made that pitch to me and it didn't make sense for me to promote it, but I had a gap where I was like, but I know your skill set now. And I was like, I feel like you live like you'd actually be. You could serve my audience here, like plug you in and you were there and that give you status and stuff like that. I'm sure you made sales from that, but wasn't directly. I didn't promote you. I just, I gave you a platform. I think it's been four times now, right?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

And then now six years later, we're working on certification program. Those who watched the sales pitch were like, we were on the phone back and forth and all of a sudden it's like, what if we partner together and we take your program and my program again? Like, and now we're doing a whole promotion which is technically promoting that venture.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

So yeah, sometimes it takes a little while, but there's always other value that comes from it. It's not like they said no or didn't work.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Right.

[Russell Brunson]

Now the whole thing falls apart and you ditch them. It's like, stay connected. Like Tony Robbins, I was working with him for a decade before he did the first thing that promoted. But. But he gave me, he gave me val. I got value throughout the relationship because I kept showing up. Right. Like he had me speak at Business Mastering in Fiji. He had me do these things. And like, you know, it wasn't what I asked for, but it was these other things. And eventually it was like, like then it made more sense because we had trust in rapport. So it's also like there's a short term game, it's also a long game. Just understanding, like if you treat the relationships as relationships, more stuff can blossom and grow from as well.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Well, and I think they're like, truly is a strategy behind that too. Like when I spoke of finally I kind of revealed, I call it the collaboration ladder. Right. So it models your value ladder. But ultimately like the more audience exposure that you want from somebody, the more value you need to provide. Right. So like, and so often so there's. But there's other collaborations that you can do, right. You can speak on each other's stages, you can do a virtual event, you can do a masterclass, you can be on their Podcast. They can be on your podcast, right? And what's so crazy is that oftentimes people are like, well, if I can't do a joint venture, then I don't want a relationship with them at all. When in reality, like, you can leverage, you can get sales and you can get status and you can get impact in time, even if you don't directly pitch, right? Like, I did that mastermind with Lauren golden, the very first thing, and I made 10 sales. I didn't even pitch, but I was able to provide value. And so people were able to come back. And the thing that's most amazing is like, if you can get what I call on somebody's collaboration ladder, like, like, if you can do a collaboration with them, even it's. If it's them on your show, you're not even on their show, then all of a sudden you have a relationship with them and what have you done? You've gotten their attention. And because you've gotten their attention, what can you then do? You can present to them other opportunities. And so you can either. I. You can just slowly climb the value that you can do. But like, thing that's amazing is like, you ended up, I asked for a joint venture and you didn't say joint venture, but you said, hey, why don't you come speak at Funnel Hacking Live? I said, great. And since then we've done like a ton of masterclasses together. I've been in your virtual events, I've spoken at your in person event multiple times. You've been on my show. We're now doing this together. Like, and again, I think that oftentimes we also only see like this game of Dream 100 or joint ventures as like, it's 100% or zero, when in reality what we're trying to do again is leverage somebody's audience. And you can leverage somebody's audience to make sales. Even without a direct pitch like this, for example, like, people are gonna listen to this. And some people might go check out my Instagram, which might.

[Russell Brunson]

Well, what would that Instagram be?

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Oh, I. But I am being serious, right? Like, people are going to. And so people are like, oh, well, I'm not. What I'm not gonna do is be. This hasn't been like a webinar, but I'm leveraging your audience, right? And if you come to mine, you're leveraging my audience. And, and anyway, so I do think that that is like, seriously though, why I love this game. It's like so amazing that, like, what I've Built can help you. Even though your business is way bigger than mine, what I'm offering you right now is actually helping your business and your business is helping my business. Like, it's just like so amazing that when you, when you figure out how to pair the right people together, it kind of like, it's like no respecter of persons. If you actually have a good product, for real have a good product, then you can infiltrate and it just becomes really, really fun. Yeah, so.

[Russell Brunson]

So I'm so glad to talk about that.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

I'm not mad that you said no. I was actually. I cried. I was so excited when you asked me to speak at the event. So me giving you sass, there actually is no sass whatsoever. I was only excited.

[Russell Brunson]

Oh, man. Well, thanks for. Thanks for first off being on the podcast. Second off being in Boise this whole week, hanging out, doing the sales, sales funnel challenge, but also sharing the stuff on joint ventures. I think for my audience specifically, it's like everyone gets so tied into Facebook ads or their free whatever the traffic sources. It's like, you know, when I wrote traffic secrets book, like the introduction was like, there's a storm coming and it happens all the time. Like platforms are deplatforming people, accounts can shut down. And it's like if everything, if I lost everything tomorrow, if everything disappeared, if I got all my social profile shut down everything, like joint ventures, I'd be fine. Like, I would just like, okay, well, I've got a lot of people I've worked over the last decade, two decades, like, who am I gonna call it? Make a couple phone calls and back on top.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Like, and if you don't have people that you've worked with over the past decade, what do you do start and how do you, how do you do it? It's seriously so easy. Just like you have to start a full blown podcast. Just start a show. Liters. Like name a show and go live on your personal profile page on Facebook. And then also. Yeah, exactly. And then all sudden you have relationship with people, you got their attention. So then what do you do next? Hey, that was so awesome. I think between you and you do. And I do, we have a great time. We'd be able to collaborate. Would you? Could I, could I tell you what I'm thinking about? And all of a sudden you're like opening the doors to all these different things and what it cost you was a 30 minute podcast episode. And now even if you don't have a Rolodex from decades, like I didn't. You can just start to play the game. Yeah, it's awesome. I love it.

[Russell Brunson]

So cool. All right, everybody, if you're listening at home, wherever you are, it's time to do some joint ventures.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Yes.

[Russell Brunson]

Add that in. Because if you're only relying on Mark Zuckerberg, Zuckerberg means you've got one joint venture partner, and he's not the nicest guy. He will shut you down without even thinking twice. So diversify your traffic, do joint adventures, have some fun, get to know cool people, and it'll make this whole business so much more fun as you get to hang out with. Really cool.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Awesome. Love it, Catherine. Thank you.

[Russell Brunson]

Appreciate you.

[Catherine Jones Lish]

Bye.