Vanessa Van Edwards on the Hidden Science of Trust, Charisma, and Selling Without Being Salesy | #Marketing - Ep. 112

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Russell Brunson Show

Episode: Vanessa Van Edwards on the Hidden Science of Trust, Charisma, and Selling Without Being Salesy
Host: Russell Brunson
Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards
Date: February 9, 2026
Episode #: 112

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode features behavioral investigator and author Vanessa Van Edwards, diving deep into the science of charisma, trust, and effective communication in business. Both Russell and Vanessa discuss practical strategies entrepreneurs can use to develop authentic charisma, present confidently, and sell without feeling "salesy." The conversation explores personal journeys, actionable cues for increasing influence, and the hidden mechanics that drive trust and conversion—both on stage and online.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Ambivert Advantage” and Finding Your Medium (01:02–05:35)

• Vanessa describes herself as a “recovering awkward person,” highlighting that many funnel hackers and entrepreneurs love their business but struggle with social interactions.
  • Notable Quote: “The hardest part about being an entrepreneur is you have to work with others, you know, like, a sort.” (01:32)
• Introduction to the concept of "ambiversion"—being neither fully introvert nor extrovert.
  • Vanessa: “80% of people are ambiverted… you can socialize and be outgoing with the right people, but in the wrong settings, you totally shut down.” (01:49)
• Importance of finding and doubling down on your strongest communication medium—be it video, audio, writing, or otherwise.
  • “You do not have to be good at all of them... Optimize the way you’re communicating.” (03:36)
• Russell: Many entrepreneurs wrongly think they have to do everything, but thriving in your preferred medium is enough for business success.

2. Vanessa’s Entrepreneurial Journey: Early YouTube & “Aggressively Helpful” Content (05:35–11:51)

• Vanessa started on YouTube in 2007 making videos for teens and parents—a blue ocean at the time. She gradually expanded into blogging and newsletters as trends evolved.
• The only channels to remain consistent for her: YouTube and email newsletters.
• Her philosophy: be “aggressively helpful,” aiming for every piece of content to give an “aha” moment or a laugh.
  • “When I have to sell, at least I feel like I’ve given away a lot of really aggressively helpful content.” (07:40)
• Discovering Russell’s methods: Vanessa adopted Russell’s slide structure for webinars, which immediately increased her launch revenue—from $50K–60K via email to over six figures in a day using webinars.
  • “Literally, your exact slides... If you go watch that original, it’s still up.” (08:46)

3. Experiencing Failure—and Using It (10:56–16:25)

• Vanessa’s first book with a major publisher was a flop; having a small list (7,000 email subscribers), only thirteen copies were sold, ten to her mom.
  • “I really thought that this was a dream come true, right? ... It is really hard to sell books.” (11:06)
  • The failure led to a break—she quit for seven months.
• Her comeback was built on authenticity: talking about the anxiety of pitching oneself, social awkwardness, and answering tough questions.
• Viral growth came from honest, vulnerable content.
  • “I started talking about being awkward. And little did I know there were a lot of smart, awkward people out there who all resonated.” (14:44)
• First big break: the book Captivate (2017), stemming from this new approach.

4. The Power of Virality and Strategic Platform Partnerships (17:01–22:11)

• Shift from newsletters and long-form YouTube to targeting virality with short, helpful content and leveraging other platforms’ audiences.
  • Vanessa detailed her strategy of going where growth was (Udemy, LinkedIn Learning, etc.), negotiating features in email blasts and ad spends rather than paying for her own ads.
  • Notable Quote: “In my negotiations… could I have search information? Will you promise one to five email blasts? … Can you put me in your ads?” (19:17)
• Entrepreneurship takeaway: Think beyond major social networks and look for platforms hungry for great content—and leverage their marketing resources.

5. Getting Featured on Major Podcasts: An Intentional, “No-Pitch” Approach (22:11–26:36)

• Vanessa never cold-pitches podcasts—instead, she reverse engineers topics that would help the host’s audience, creates viral content samples, and gets noticed.
  • “Write five hooks you think their audience would like… Go make that content… so their team would see that content.” (22:28)
• She practices and refines her key points repeatedly, sometimes a dozen times, before deploying them on a major show.
• Russell echoes: Both practice and polish stories and delivery across multiple settings to ensure message clarity and resonance.

6. The Science of Charisma: Warmth & Competence (27:32–31:39)

• Most persuasive communicators blend warmth (stories, humor, relatability) and competence (data, expertise, authority).
• Both in webinars and funnels, Vanessa alternates between warmth and competence to maximize conversion.
  • “Competence without warmth is suspicious. Warmth without competence is unreliable.” (29:18)
• Applies the same strategy in email marketing: cycles of emotional storytelling and actionable, credible advice.

7. Practical Charisma Cues—Vanessa’s “Shark Tank” Framework (31:39–39:30)

Three Essential First-Contact Cues:

1. Visible hands (show your palms on video/stage!): Visibly open hands build instant trust.
2. Lowest natural tone for your first words: Speaking from your “maximum resonance point” signals confidence. “When we get anxious, both men and women tend to go up… You want me in my lowest tone.” (33:20)
   • Practice: Say hello on the out-breath for vocal confidence (36:53).
3. Proud posture & space: Expand the distance between shoulders and ears; leave space between torso and arms. Avoid the “defeated” posture (hunched, withdrawn).
   • “The amount of space I take up dictates how confident I feel.” (36:58)

These cues shape first impressions and signal to others whether you are “worth listening to.” They’re based on cues from 495 analyses of Shark Tank pitches.

8. The 97 Cues of Charismatic Communication (39:30–42:04)

• Vanessa’s book Cues identifies 97 cues: some convey warmth, some competence, and some both; others are “danger zone cues” that undermine both.
• Delivery matters as much as content. Many smart people under-signal their strengths because they don’t think about their cues.
  • “This is the problem and the curse of very smart people… they prepare for the content, but they don’t practice the delivery.” (41:05)
• On video, sending enough warm/competent signals is even harder—doubly important to use cues intentionally.

9. Sneak Peek: Vanessa’s Next Book — Conversation (42:25–44:14)

• The new book, Conversation, is about leveling up small talk by understanding and moving through the three levels of connection.
• Podcast-exclusive reveal: After a decade of research and testing, Vanessa has distilled her findings into nine “power questions” specially formulated to deepen conversations without being socially awkward.
  • “There is a blueprint for conversation and people didn’t know it… There is a way to get out of [awkward small talk].” (44:14)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Saying no to the wrong things leaves room to double down on the right things.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (05:30)
• “I’m a recovering awkward person…If there are any other funnel hackers who don’t really like people, I see you.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (01:02)
• “You do not have to be good at all of them…social strengths are just as important as business strengths.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (03:36)
• “I used every single one of your slides.” – Vanessa Van Edwards to Russell Brunson (08:46)
• “Competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (29:18)
• “The moment someone first sees you, whether that’s on video, on stage, in the room—those matter just as much as your presentation.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (33:22)
• “Your cues tell others how to treat you.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (41:29)
• “This is going to be a train wreck…There’s something happening there with their walk and those first few lines.” – Vanessa Van Edwards (33:22, on Shark Tank analysis)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 01:02–05:35 | Ambiversion, picking your medium, social strengths | | 05:35–11:51 | Early content journey, “aggressively helpful” mantra | | 11:51–16:25 | Vanessa’s first book flop, authenticity as comeback | | 17:01–22:11 | Platform partnerships, virality & leveraging audiences | | 22:11–26:36 | Podcasting strategy, viral hooks, practicing delivery | | 27:32–31:39 | Warmth vs. competence, email/content strategy | | 31:39–39:30 | Practical charisma cues: posture, voice, hands | | 39:30–42:04 | 97 cues; delivery vs. content; video-specific challenge| | 42:25–44:14 | New book preview: “Conversation” and power questions | | 45:02–47:00 | Where to find Vanessa & episode close |

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How to Connect with Vanessa Van Edwards

• Website: scienceofpeople.com
  Join Vanessa’s newsletter for weekly icebreakers and social tips.
• Instagram: @vanedwards
• YouTube: Vanessa Van Edwards

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Final Word

This episode offers a goldmine of actionable strategies and personal wisdom on building trust, mastering charisma, and communicating for conversion. Vanessa’s blend of research-backed insights and vulnerable storytelling makes the sometimes-intimidating world of selling and charisma feel attainable for anyone—awkward or not.

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“I promise to be aggressively helpful.”
— Vanessa Van Edwards (45:17)

A must-listen for any entrepreneur seeking to boost influence, conversion, and authentic connection—without ever feeling salesy.

Transcript

[Russell Brunson]

Do you have a funnel? But it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next selling online event by going to sellingonline.com podcast. That's sellingonline.com podcast. This is the Russell Brunson Show. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the show. I'm really excited for a special guest who I've been seeing blowing up everywhere. I've seen her on, like, a ton of podcasts. Everywhere I go, her face is popping up. And I went to Instagram and follow her. And then the next day she messaged me and she's like, hey, I actually use your stuff to build your business. I'm like, what? That is the coolest thing in the world. So I'm excited to introduce you to all of her. Introduce all of you to her. We have a really cool conversation. We're talking about a lot of stuff. She's got a book called Cues. Her name's Vanessa Van Edwards, and she is just like you as a funnel hacker who's got her message out there and is going across the whole world. And it's been really, really fun watching. So, Vanessa, first off, it's been so cool over the last, like, five minutes getting to know you, but thanks for coming on the show.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my pleasure. When I saw that you liked one of my reels, there was a celebration in my house. I was like, russell Branson liked my video. So I just went into your DMs and was like, you have helped me so much because I'm a recovering awkward person. I don't know if there are any other funnel hackers listening where. We love the biz, we love the strategy, we love our product, but we don't really like people.

[Russell Brunson]

We're scared of them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

People are hard. I think it's the hardest part about being an entrepreneur is you have to work with others, you know, like a sort. And also, I'm ambiverted. I don't. Russell, are you introvert, extrovert, or ambivert?

[Russell Brunson]

Do you know, I've never heard Amber Verb. I've always considered myself introverted, for sure. What's an Amber?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so. So actually, 80% of people are ambiverted, which means you are not a true extrovert or true introvert. It means you can socialize and be very outgoing with the right people in the right settings, but the wrong people the wrong settings totally shut you down, drain you. And you need a lot of recharge time. So you can like, extrovert. You can people for a certain amount of time, but then you are out. Like, you need to recharge. Is that you?

[Russell Brunson]

That does sound actually more like me. I always thought it's because, like, I had to. Because, like, I always told people I feel like I'm an introvert and an extrovert's calling, so I have to go and do things, but then, yeah, afterwards I have to go back and hide and just be like, oh, give me some time, please.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And by the way, I think that, like, that's the most. The biggest challenge is being an entrepreneur, is we do like a lot of deep thinking work, a lot of strategy work. We're like in our funnels, testing subject lines and, you know, right in, like, you know, it takes me four days to build slides and then you have to teach them, which is the next challenge. So I think a lot of us entrepreneurs are ambiverted, and I actually think that's a superpower. I think it's a strength if we learn how to leverage it.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, it's. I remember when I was first learning about introvert, extrovert, like understanding how a lot of really successful people even like actors or people who perform. It's like they, they create privately by themselves, they perform publicly. And it's like that's like the. I feel like that skill set is really, really powerful versus people very extroverted. They, they, they, they figure things out on the fly, like in real time, like while they're talking about it. So they're not as good as preparing. And sometimes you can go off the rails if you're not. Like, if you don't have a structure to actually follow. And it's interesting to watch the, the dynamics between them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Also that I've noticed that there are certain folks who. There's different mediums where they thrive. Like, for example, when I'm on social media, I'm actually by myself.

[Russell Brunson]

This is great.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Actually. I, you know, the reason I like doing so many videos, I have so many YouTube videos, is because it's just me in a dark room, you know, with a, With a ring light. So, like, there's no peopling. I don't have to worry about being awkward or saying the wrong thing or it's just me. And I can edit out my awkward silences or I keep them in because I want to be authentic and people to see my mistakes and my flubs. That is Safe for me. Whereas, for example, a small group workshop. No, Like. Like, it gives me, like, heart palpitations. Like that. That for me is way harder. And so I think people listening, it's also good to think, like, what's the medium where you thrive? Like, are you very good at cold calls? Like, are you good at phone calls? There are certain types of people. They're very good at phone calls. And they're. And they're bad at video. They're bad at video calls. I think, like, trying to optimize, like, the way that you're communicating. You don't have to be good at all of them. That's permission. You do not have to be good at all of them. In fact, there are some people who thrive in podcast. They're like, I don't want to worry about makeup. I don't want, you know, I have resting, bothered face. I always look angry. I cannot do video. I thrive on audio. Great. Double down on audio. Or there's now people who are like, you know what, writing, you know, like, writing emails. That is my jam. I don't want to be on video. I don't want to be talking. Great. Like, do what you're excellent at socially. I think social strengths is just as important as business strengths. Yeah.

[Russell Brunson]

I think it's interesting. A lot of people think they've got to learn how to do all of it, but I, as you said, like, I know people who just make money off a podcast. No face, just spoken word people just make money. Emails, people just make money off Instagram, just YouTube. Like, so I think we think we have to, like, be do all of them. But it's like, you don't. You just have, like, you said, figure out the ones you really resonate with and focus there.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, I don't have a podcast, which everyone's like, what? And I'm like, no, I'm. I'm not good at that medium. I don't think I'm as good at interviewing as you are or at hosting in that way. And I think that when I said, said no to doing a podcast, that's when we hit seven figures.

[Russell Brunson]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think sometimes saying no to the wrong things leaves room to double down on the right things.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, interesting. All right, I want to jump back in time. I want you back in time to how you started this business. My people, you know, we have all of the. The crazy online marketers, people who are. They're creators. They've got a vision, they got something they're passionate about, and there's some phase of the journey where they're trying to figure this out. So I want to go back to the very beginning of yours and, like, how did you decide, Like, I'm going to start an online business and I'm going to, you know, start doing this kind of stuff.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Okay. So 2007, this thing launched called YouTube. And I was like, okay, YouTube, I can do this. And so I started filming little YouTube videos, and I was that. Back then, I was specializing in communication for teenagers and parents. I was very young myself, and so I was posting videos for teens and parents on how to communicate better, and they really started doing well. And this was right at the beginning of YouTube. Right. Like, people didn't even know what it was. Facebook was the Facebook. Right. It was very, very early on. And so no one was doing educational content on YouTube. It was mostly, like, toys. Like unboxing cats. Yeah, like, unboxing videos, like video games. It was. It was. No one was really doing that, so it was really a blue ocean. Like, there was very little competition. And then as I got older, I started broadening my brand to just general communication, because I was getting older, so I couldn't really speak to teenagers anymore. And then this idea happened where blogging was becoming big. So I started writing a blog along with every video post. And then you had to have a newsletter with every blog post. So every two years, it felt like I was adding a channel. You know, I started with video, then we added blogging, Then we added email newsletters, then we added Facebook. Then there was LinkedIn. Then for a minute there was like, Periscope. Remember that?

[Russell Brunson]

Oh, I miss Periscope. That was my favorite one.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, man. I know. I built a cardboard house on Periscope. That was so fun. I mean, by the way, mistake. I doubled down on Periscope. Everyone was like, guys, this is never going away. Okay?

[Russell Brunson]

This is the.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're just double down on this. And boy, oh, boy, did I. And I was like, I'm going to put all my eggs in the Periscope basket and none in the Instagram basket.

[Russell Brunson]

Big mistake.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Big. Everyone's like, instagram. What? You're going to want to look at pictures. That's so silly. But, like, you know, double down in Periscope for a couple of years, ignored Instagram and just that Instagram came, then TikTok came. So basically, two years, I was adding a new channel, but the two that remained constant were YouTube and the newsletter. Email newsletter. And so I have a approach to, as a content creator, to be aggressively helpful. So I want every single email or every single video to either give you an aha moment right then and there or make you laugh. Either one. Right. I have. It has to do one of those two things so that when I do have to sell and I actually do not like selling, but when I have to sell, at least I feel like I've given away a lot of really aggressively helpful content for that. Even when I'm selling, I'm trying to be aggressively helpful too. And that's when someone. Jeremy Sandow. Jeremy, if you're listening, Jeremy Sandow said. Have you heard of this guy, Russell Brunson? And this was over a decade ago. Over a decade ago.

[Russell Brunson]

The very beginning of clickfunnels then probably.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right? It was the very beginning. And like you were starting, you were, you were aggressively helpful. He's like, he literally putting out this. He's giving us. I remember opening your book. I got your book and I. And it showed every slide, every slide in the webinar. And so you know what I did? I used every single one of your slides. Every single one. If you go on my free trainings, I have, I have 1260 minute webinars, one for every year. Because I do one a year. And they're all three secrets to being more likable.

[Russell Brunson]

So good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Being inauthentic. Three secrets to being more assertive while still being nice. Three secrets to. I'm serious.

[Russell Brunson]

It's so good you put them up. Do you post it on YouTube or you run as webinar separately or how.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I. I live on YouTube. Live on YouTube.

[Russell Brunson]

Cool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yep, yep. And now we, you know, simulcast it. So it's on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram and LinkedIn and X I think too. So that was over a decade ago and my friend Jeremy was like, we have. You have to start doing webinars. Because what I was doing before was just selling via my newsletter and occasionally a social post. And it wasn't enough. Like, it just wasn't enough. I was able to make maybe 50 or 60,000 in a launch just using emails. But when I added my first webinar and I did it literally your exact slides, like if you go watch that original, it's still up. It's like, here's my hurdle, here's the stack. It's all the different things that you did. We had over six figures within the first day. When the first day. And what's great about it is I taught. You know, I think that I like your stuff is because I was teaching for 30 minutes, you know that it was all teaching. So that was a real game changer. That was an inflection point for me is I think that was in like about 2015, 2016, somewhere around there where we totally transferred. Transferred into webinars. And so we would launch three to four times a year. We would close our class, offer bonuses, as you mentioned. And that's when I got my book deal, which was very. I'm excited, actually I should say, because now we're talking to entrepreneurs. I got a book deal in 2010 and I thought it would be life changing. It was from a major publisher and I wrote it and I loved the book and I put it out and no one bought it.

[Russell Brunson]

Was it this one or the one behind you? Which one was it?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, you don't see it.

[Russell Brunson]

There's not even. It's one we don't talk about.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It is hidden away.

[Russell Brunson]

I want a copy of it. Give me a copy.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No. And like I. I will be. I really thought that like this was a dream come true, right? Like I was so happy. And then it came out and no one bought it. And I realized how hard it was to sell books. It is really hard to sell books. And at that point I had 7,000 people about on my newsletter, on my emails newsletter. And I think like 13 bought it.

[Russell Brunson]

Like, oh no, that was a lot of work.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I think like 10 of them were my mom. You know what I mean? Like, I think maybe three people bought it. And that was really shock, really hard. I actually had to quit. I had to quit. I was out. I was like, I can't do this. I was basically told, you're never gonna write a book again. You should quit. You should stop.

[Russell Brunson]

So you quit everything or you just quit just the writing part or you stopped everything.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I stopped everything.

[Russell Brunson]

Really? For how long?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

About seven months.

[Russell Brunson]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Just was like, maybe I'm not meant to do this. And I think when you create something like a book and it's does badly it feels like you are you. Like, I couldn't separate myself from the book.

[Russell Brunson]

Especially how much time you put into a book. A book is so personal because you're spending all this like time with you and your brain, your thoughts privately creating something and you publicly give it to the world. And it's like for me, every time I release a book, it is the scariest feeling I've ever felt my life. Because you're just like, man, I've lived with it for so long. And if people judge, that gets hard. I can, I can't even imagine. I can't imagine it sounds very hard.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so I, I stopped. And my husband. I've been with my husband for 20 years, so he's been with me through the whole process. He was like, I. I think you, I think you need to go back to this, but I think you should just do it differently. And I was like, I feel so sad and I feel so uncomfortable. And by the way, that was like, like very peak social anxiety as well. Because I think what was. What happened was my friends were very happy for me. And I would go out and they'd be like, how's the book? I'd be like, it's total failure and I'm never going to write again.

[Russell Brunson]

Thanks for asking.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, thank you. And they'd be like, how's the biz? And I'd be like, totally failing, not making any money, like, taking out loans.

[Russell Brunson]

You're like, thanks for making my mood feel so good, though.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I appreciate. And so already some social lack of confidence that I had turned into. Like, I was very scared to go out and talk about the business. And, you know, entrepreneurs know this. Whenever someone asks you, what do you do? You then have to sell yourself? Pretty much, you know, depends on your business, of course. But you're, you're, you're pitching right then and there, whether it's at a barbecue or pickup line or, you know, pta. Like, right there, you have this moment where you can be like, oh, you know, just marketing. Right. Sometimes I would say that. Or like, well, I'm an author. And then they're like, what's the book about? Oh, actually, it failed. You know, it was this really hard. It's like, really hard. So anyway, he said, why don't you write about that? Why don't you just write about how hard it is to talk about yourself? How hard is talk about what you do? And one of the first videos that I posted after I kind of rebranded, I rebranded the signs of people was, how do you answer? What do you do? Especially if you are embarrassed by what do you do? And I started talking about the mechanics of answering difficult questions. How do you answer? How are you? How do you answer? Tell me your biggest weakness. How do you answer? Tell me about your last relationship. Like, all those questions, and those really started to go viral, and that's built a lot of momentum back into the business. And I started talking about being awkward. And little did I know there was a lot of smart, awkward people out.

[Russell Brunson]

There who all resonated.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So when I got captivated as a book deal in 2015, that's when my business had the inflection point with your formula. I was scared. I was like, no, I can't write books. I can't sell books. My editor, who's still my editor today, Nikki Papadopoulos, was like, you can write this book differently. We're going to do this different. And so that was Captivate. That was my first successful book. When it came out, I expected to go full dark. I was like, this is going to be terrible. No one's going to buy it. And thank goodness the opposite happened. And it was huge and very successful. And I think it's because I approached it differently. I was like, I'm going to write about awkwardness. I'm not going to write what I think I should write. I should write the book that I wish I had had. So that was captivating.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, that's so cool. And how many. What year was Captivate published in?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

2017. So started in 2015, 2016, and then published 2017.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah. So cool. I'm curious, with YouTube channel, when you rebranded and kind of shifted, did you just change the channel, put new stuff on? Like, if we go back in time, will we go see the ones? When you're talking to the teenagers way back in the day, are they still there?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They're. They're unlisted. No, they're unlisted. I should, you know, I should just. I should pick one and just relist it.

[Russell Brunson]

Relist it for like a weekend. Like, everyone go check it out.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I know, I'll. I'll. I'll see if I can find one that I can just realist. You'll be like, whoa.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, it's funny for me, like, one of the highest close rates I ever had is I found my very first presentation I ever sold. And I showed that when I was trying to teach people how to sell from stage. And like, because people saw how awkward I was, like, it was. It gave them so much belief that then they went and anyway, so just people would love to see the very. The pre. Beginning of your stuff.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm gonna go unlist one. Because they're sitting right there and they're so raw and so awkward that I think if people don't believe me when I'm like, I was. I'm a recovering awkward person. They do not believe me. And then they will. So that's a good idea. I will. Challenge accepted.

[Russell Brunson]

Child accepted. So the next part of your story, because leading up to this book and stuff and everything, and maybe it's just because I've, you know, seen you More and more it feels like you're in this like, like a lot of stuff happening right now, a lot of growth, a lot of like attention happening. Like, what was it that took you from captivate to like this crescendo to where you are today and like getting more media and more things and more like. Yeah, I'm curious, like what that transition part looked like.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So virality really. And I hate to say that social media made that big of a difference. But before that, I was really focused on putting out aggressively helpful content, which was usually living in newsletters and long form YouTube. That was that. And a long form blog to go along with it. A lot of long form. Then I started focusing a lot more on virality, like very quick tips that would really help. And then going on other people's platforms, including learning platforms. So that's when I started partnering with other people who had bigger audiences than me, not partners like other entrepreneurs platforms. So for example, I launched a Udemy course. I had like five or six Udemy courses. And they had, at that time, they were really big. And so I was the only person on Udemy doing social skills content at the time. Udemy was really all technical content. It was programming. And so I had this course like Human Lie detection body language 101 body language for entrepreneurs. And so a lot of I noticed coders were taking it as like their lunch break if it was like their, like their treat course. And we. I remember this. I posted on Udemy and I was like, you know, I invested like in a little camera and a little light. And I was like, man, this was $90 on Amazon. I better make back this $90. Thinking at the time. And I was like, if I could just make a hundred dollars, you know, hundred dollars, I'll pay back my. I'll break even, I'll make $10, I'll buy me two coffees. Back then, I think that was three copies. And I posted it and within 24 hours it got approved. We had thousands, thousands of sales. Thousands and thousands of sales. And so udemy started putting me in their email announcements. And this is something that's a very weird hack, but I think it works is there's always a platform that is really big in the moment. So it was Udemy, then it was Creative Live, then it was Skillshare, then it was LinkedIn learning, then it was Linda. Right. Like all these platforms. And so what I would do is I would go to each platform at the. As they were crescendoing, like as they were Getting big. And I would offer them content either for free or for pay. And what I would negotiate is please put me in an email blast. Because I knew that just being in search would not be enough, especially if it didn't have any reviews. And so in my negotiations with every single one of those platforms, I asked, I'm happy to create this content for you. One, tell me all about your users and their searching habits. So I knew what people were searching in the search bar and I knew that if I could build a course based on those keywords, I would come up and search higher. So I asked in the pre negotiations, could I have search information? And then second, will you promise one to five email blasts? And then third, if I could do it, I asked, can you put me in your ads? Because what I realized was all of these platforms had funding, so I didn't want to take out ads on my own stuff. But they had tons of budget for ads. So I said, will you do ads for me? I'll film them for you if you want to do ads. And so then they would put 100,000 to 300,000 in ads of my course for me and I wasn't having to spend it. So if I pre negotiated those things, it almost guaranteed that the course would do well. And then I was able to go from platform to platform. Like for example, I just did a masterclass and that's, you know, a beautiful platform. They make beautiful courses. And so when I talk to them, I was like, please run ads. Like run ads. I will do whatever you need to run that ad. I'll give you, you know, we can collab on my accounts, we can do co ads together because they have the spend for those ads. And then I was like, how many emails are you going to send? When are you going to send them? Can I help you? Can I create content for those emails? So I think that whatever business you're in, whether it's content creation or learning, is what platforms, not social media platforms, but what platforms could feature you, your knowledge, your business, your product. And then how can you get into their search? Because almost every website now has search into their emails, into their ads.

[Russell Brunson]

So smart. I've never heard anyone really talk about that because everyone's so focused on, on the social platforms. But man, that's, that's really, really cool. Well, I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend now. I'm going to be focusing on calling people like, dang, I want to get on masterclass. I didn't even think about that. So Cool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'll introduce you to them. Yeah, let's do it. Sure. You should have one. And I also think, like, speaking of, I think that we also have to think about. We think about search engine optimization a lot, right? Like, I knew about search engine optimization, SEO from my blog for many days, but we don't realize is that every search engine, every social platform is a search engine, every course platform is a search engine, every blog is search engine. And so if you can be optimizing for their search and then their email blasts. Everyone's sending out email blasts, whether you're a flossing company or you're a shower curtain company. It's like, everyone has an email newsletter. And so getting into those email newsletters is key. Like, I have another book launch coming up in October, and I was like, I don't even want to do a podcast tour. I want to do a newsletter tour. Like, I want to take over people's newsletters and write aggressively helpful content for their newsletter, and then I want to ask them if I can be in their ads. It is a very different way of thinking about your product and your content.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, I love it. So cool. I'm curious because you had so much success also getting on, like, bigger podcasts and things like that. For my audience who's like, that's like, a lot of their dream. Like, how would I get on a podcast? How do you, like, what's your process? Are you pitching people becoming you? Is it a. Is there a strategy behind it all?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I have a strategy. I don't pitch podcasts. I want them to notice me. So the way that I think about this is I have a list, always a running list, of, like, 10 podcasts that I want to be on specifically that I think I could be of service to their audience. Like, there are podcasts out there that are very big, but I don't know. I don't think their audience would find me helpful. Like, I don't do makeup content. I don't do health and wellness content. So, you know, I'm not aiming for those ones. I'm aiming for really smart, talented entrepreneurs or professionals. Maybe they want a little bit of social help. So I'm like, okay, who are they listening to? I have a running list of 10. So make your list of 10 where, you know, you could help their audience, like, not just you like them, but, like, you know that whatever you have to say or offer could be super helpful for them because can be a way easier pitch. Then you should write five hooks that you think their Audience would like. So like let's take for example, let's take Mel Robbins, for example. So I was a big fan of Mel. I love, you know, she has a lot of very smart listeners. And I noticed that her viral, her best content had very specific kind of headlines. So my team and I sat down and we made a list of what topics we thought would go viral for her. Not for me, but for her. Then I went and I made that content. Either I made it myself, like in my YouTube channel here, or I went on a smaller podcast and tested the content, clipped that content from that podcast and tried to get it to go viral so that her team would see that content, I could recreate it for her. And so that is exactly what has happened, I would say over 50 times is I've created content and then we remake it. Or like I'll, I make it myself or I make it on a podcast where I'm testing the material. Like, you know, all my content, it's, it has to be packaged the right way to be helpful. So like for example, for a long time, like, let's get very specific. So I had an idea to encourage people to break out of their social awkwardness with social exposure theory, which is basically this idea that you go out and you know that you're going to fail, but you say hi to as many people as possible, you feel their rejection and realize you're okay, right? Like that. That's a very specific challenge. So I've been, I've been trying to teach that content on a couple different podcasts. I tried it on my YouTube channel, it didn't go very viral. I tried it in a story, it didn't go very viral. I then tried it on three or four different podcasts, like trying to explain it to the host only kind of went. And then I nailed it on a medium sized podcast. Like I got the, I got it right and it got like 20 or 30,000 views, which is kind of viral, like in our world kind of viral. And that got the attention of Jay Shetty's producers. Or I think one of those, one of those did. And I went and redid it on his podcast because I knew I was ready for it. And then that content hit and helped so many people. And that is like, has millions of views, that clip now. But I had practiced that clip 12 times before it made it to him where it was ready to be like used and digested. So if you want to get on these bigger podcasts, branch from the hooks that you think could be most helpful and then deliver them on your own channel, try to get them to get some clicks and go viral. You can then send it to the producers or you can try to hop on medium sized podcasts to try to get that word out. That, that's one of your big tips.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, I think that's so cool. It's interesting too because I think a lot of people are just hoping they're going to say something that happens to go viral. Where you're like, okay, here's the person, what can I say? What's the story? What's in like thinking through it and then creating like the viral moment as opposed to like hoping there's just magically going to happen. You know what I mean? It's so interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And by the way, there are some very talented people where that does happen. Or for example, sometimes you'll, you'll be verbalizing something and you're like, whoa, that's. That, that came out really good. That was really good. That can happen. But don't, don't leave it up to chance, you know, like, like I think strategizing and remember, I think the intention here is helpful, right? Like yes, virality, but like what is going to make people want to take out their pen and take notes? Yeah, that's, that's the goal.

[Russell Brunson]

Essentially. I look at my content very similar. Like the thing that I'm best at is long form. Like I'm my shortest, like a 90 minute webinar to a five day event, right? So like I'm much better longer form. And so for me though, to fill up five days of me speaking on stage for eight hours a day for an event, like event we're doing, it's like I have to have a lot of stories, but I do the same thing you're talking about. It's like I don't just like show up. Like, I hope I got a story for today, like for the last two decades of my life. Like, like I'll have an idea or something and then like I'll, I'll be at the gym and I'll tell to the, my trainer. And then like, and then I get home and I'll like, I'll say to my wife. And then, you know, every time it's like I didn't really land right. Let me change it. I go to the office, I'm like, hey guys, check this out. And I say to the office, see what they say. And then I'll record a little podcast on my phone and put it out. You know, like, I'll do like 10, 15, 20 variations of it till it's like, okay. And I know how to tell this story in a way that's going to just drop the second I need it to. And then, yeah, that's it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, I think, like, yeah, we should have like 10 practice people. Like, yes, my trainer, my poor trainer has to hear all my tips. Like, well, I'm like, lifting.

[Russell Brunson]

I'll pay you a monthly for my.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Training fees instead of overcoming limiting beliefs for a second. You know, like lifting. Because I'm trying to get right. Yes. Like, I think that there's a mistaken belief that you have to be expertly charismatic on the first go. And the way you deliver something, there is a science to delivery. And so you don't have to get it right the first time. It takes a little bit to practice verbalizing something in a way that's going to land. And really, really good speakers do the work ahead of time. They're like, I'm not going to make my listener parse this out. I'm going to do the work to make sure I have the right conflict and challenge and words and metaphor. It's not too long, it's not too short. I'm going to do the work for them so that when it hits their ears, they're like, yes, click. And so I think it's about doing the work for them. I also would say, like, even with webinars. So I try to give one webinar a year, sometimes two webinars a year, literally using your exact format. So I use. I've, I've, I've changed it a little bit over the years because, like, I found my own way to do it. But I've even noticed if I could add a layer on top what works and what doesn't work, which is charisma. Very charismatic people have a perfect blend of warmth and competence. I noticed that if I deliver a webinar and it's all competence, numbers, data, science, research, formula, steps, it doesn't land that well. It's actually too much cerebral. And they, in the research, they literally say, competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious. So you have people who are listening to the webinar and they're like, okay, but can I trust you? Like, am I feeling this? Am I clicking with this person? I don't want to buy, like, literally, competence without warmth triggers that feeling of suspicion in a buyer or in your customer who's listening when I deliver all warmth. So I've had a couple where I've tried a lot of stories so warmth is stories, gifts, case studies, personal opinions, humor moments. Those also don't convert because people think, I really like you, but I can't rely on you. I really like you, but I'm not going to buy from you. And especially if you have a higher priced product. You know, we've tested everything in our product ladder from a $10 book all the way up to a $3,000 course, right? It doesn't even matter the price point if you have too much warmth. People also feel like, I don't think there's enough credibility here. Like it's too much likability and not enough credibility. So in my webinars now with your formula, I try to balance for every warm slide, I have a competent slide. So you'll see. I'll start with warmth, like a gif or something cute or funny. Then I hit them with like a really good stat, like a shocking stat. Then I'm like, personal story. Then I'm like, wait, some science and research. Then I'm like, case study. Then I'm like, wait a minute, there's a formula here. Did you know it? So I think that the layer I would add on top is we've seen our webinars. We have some webinars that do great. Like they convert for us seven years later. Like they are still making money, they are still earning money for us. And then we have some webinars that just never quite hit. And it's because we didn't have enough of a balance. And so for anyone who's creating any kind of content, especially in a funnel, I even did the same thing for an email. Like in my funnels we are. I love a funnel. I love a funnel. I write all my funnels. Like I there's an art and science to them. I also think for I rotate warm email, competent email, warm email, composite email. So like I'll have an email that's all a story. Like a very, very heartfelt story, either from me or a case study. And then it's like research that will blow your mind with a step by step formula on conversation. Then it's a really inspiring story about how I overcame a challenge. And no links, just like a story and a picture from my childhood. Then it's like super competent. This is exactly what to say to earn more money. This is exactly what to say to sell super competent steps. Fill in the blank scripts and then you can have a buy button. But you have to have both even leading up to it in the funnel.

[Russell Brunson]

That's cool. I want to ask you some more specific questions also about your books cues. Talking about the secret language of charismatic communication. And so with our audience, there's a lot of people now who try and train them, like, how to do webinars and challenges and get on state and stuff like that. Right. And I think that we talked about the very beginning, but there's a lot of us, me included, who. Who feel awkward doing things. And I'd love to talk about some of the cues that they can learn also. Like, as they're trying to be someone who's presenting, when they don't feel comfortable presenting, they feel like I did where, like, I'm an introvert in an extrovert's world, and I don't feel comfortable here. But I know I got to do it because I got a message. I got to get it out, like, what can we help them with to help, you know, make that part easier?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Perfect. Okay. So the good news is, is there is a formula for this. So this is something that you can learn. If you are not naturally charismatic, if you are not naturally a people person, it's fine. You can learn it as long as you have true competence. So you know your product and you know your stuff. And true warmth. You are not trying to trick people. You are actually trustworthy. I can teach you the cues. It doesn't really. It doesn't really work to fake it till you make it. I just don't like, usually that comes across as inauthentic. So one is, know your stuff, know your brand, know your numbers, know your product. Second is be trustworthy. Don't do anything naughty. Don't do anything evil. Play by the rules. Okay.

[Russell Brunson]

Be a good person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. Be a good person. All right. Yeah. Okay, so that's one that. That. That's the baseline. Then we can add the cues on top of it. And I like to use a Shark Tank as an example whenever I'm talking to entrepreneurs about presenting. So I love the show Shark Tank. My team and I analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches, looking for patterns. We wanted to know why are some. When you, you know, like, you watch our day, they walk down the hallway and you're like, this is going to be good.

[Russell Brunson]

This is going to be swagger. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They are going to make money. Like, you just know, like, something about them in the first few seconds, and there's somewhere you're like, this is going to be a train wreck. You just know there is something happening there with their walk and those first few lines. So first, your first impression matters. How you Take the stage. How you walk into a room, the first thing people see when they pop on video, how you're waiting in the meeting room. Those matter just as much as your presentation. And that is the mistake a lot of entrepreneurs make is they think that their impression happens the moment they start presenting. No, it happens the moment someone first sees you. So that's okay. That means we have a couple seconds to work with there. There's a couple things you want to make sure of. You are nailing the moment someone first sees you, whether that's on video, on stage, in the room. Like, for example, I speak in front of a lot of ballrooms, as do you. I know my first impression happens the moment I walk in that ballroom, even if it's off to the side. And it's especially happening as I walk on stage. Same thing in Shark Tank. You are judging their warmth and competence. The moment they walk into that room. And your very first word. So here are some of the patterns. One, when people first see you, you, if you can, want to show visible hands, ideally your palm. And that sounds really weird, but eye tracking studies, we like to see people's hands. In fact, if I were to do this entire video and Russell couldn't see my hands, one ey would become a worse speaker. Susan Goldman Meadow found that our gestures make us more fluent. It also helps comprehension. So one is the moment I hop on video. I say, morning, hi, everyone. Good to see you. Show palm, right? Like a little palm flash. The moment I walk on stage, like, literally as I'm walking up the steps or walking across the stage, I say, hey, everyone. Good to see you. Happy to be here. Or just a visible palm. There is something in our amygdala that deactivates. So visible palm. And keeping your hands out of your pockets, not behind your back, like, that's very, very first thing. Baseline. Second thing is you want to start your first word on your lowest natural tone. And what I mean by this, and they've actually measured it, is when we get anxious, both men and women tend to go up into the highest end of their range. They tuck up here. Now, if I were to give this entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. You'd be like, why is she talking like that? Now that's natural for me. Like, when I'm talking to my daughters, I might be up here, hey, girls. Yeah. But when you're trying to learn from me, buy from me, get to know me, you want me in my lowest tone. Because when I'm using my lowest tone, it's called a maximum resonance point. Super resonant. My voice is relaxed. My shoulders are down. I have lots of volume. And your brain goes, ah. She knows what she's talking about. I can relax and listen. The mistake that people make is they give away all of their vocal confidence in the first word. They go like this, hi or morning. And in the audience, it's without even realizing, the audience is like, ooh, they're nervous. We don't like to buy from or learn from nervous people. We just don't like it. So when you say hello, I want you to say hello on the out breath. Most people take it on the input. So they'll answer the phone. They'll be like, hello all the way up here. Like, just try it with me. So, Russell, say hello and say. And take a deep breath in and say hello on the top of your breath.

[Russell Brunson]

Hello.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I don't like that one. Right. That's too high. Right. Hello all the way up. So instead, I want you to say hello or your first word on the out breath. So it sounds like this. This is the bad one. Hello versus hello.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, hello.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's much better.

[Russell Brunson]

Oh, okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Much better. And I want you to try this at home so you can hear yourself, because the way that you sound at the top of your breath, if you are ever speaking in that tone of voice, you are giving away vocal confidence. That's too high in your range. If you speak on the out breath, as your vocal cords are relaxing, when you speak on the out breath, you actually force your vocal cords to relax. That hits more of your resonance point. We like it like it immediately tells our brain, Ah, this person knows what they're talking about. So first word on the lowest end of your range. So hands low vocal range. The third one is a little bit weird. But across cultures and genders and races, we are always trying to gauge someone's perceived pride. We like people who feel proud, because usually proud people are confident. They know their stuff and they're trustworthy or they're not hiding anything. So we're always trying to gauge, do you look more like a winner or do you look more like a loser? That's a very hard way of saying that. But the way that this works is the amount of space that I take up dictates how confident I feel. University of British Columbia looked at research. They researched athletes across cultures, and they found that when losers win a race, they take up a lot of space. They tilt their head towards the sky. They roll their shoulders back. They often might even have Their arms out, and they. They keep their torso nice and open. Losing athletes do the opposite. They typically tilt their chin down, they roll their shoulders in, they tightly press their arms to their side or even cross their arms in front as if they're showing defeat. The problem is, when we are starting a meeting, what are we typically doing? Checking our phone. And checking our phone looks just like a loser. Like, it literally looks like a losing athlete. So when someone pops on video or you walk on stage or you're walking into a room, do not be checking your phone, because literally, it's accidental to feed body language. Instead, I want you to maximize two distances. Very specifically, I want you to maximize the distance between your earlobe and your shoulder. So this should be as maximized as possible. Now watch me. I'm going to shrink my shoulders down. If I were to have my shoulders hunched up and my head down with very little space between my ear and my shoulder, I would look like I'm not confident, right, Russell? Like, I don't. You would not want to take advice from me. And so the more this is maximized, the more someone is. We see that they are proud enough to leave this down, to not protect themselves. And the second distance is the distance between your torso and your arm. When we see someone have space here, we think, ah, they're not being protected. They're gesturing, they're open, they're free. It's a very quick way that we judge if someone looks confident or not. So you want to maximize those distances on video, on stage, in person. Those are just a couple of the first. First impression ones. I have a lot, but those are my favorite ones.

[Russell Brunson]

That's. Those are all, like, insanely cool. Not that hard to do, but, like, really, really powerful. So in your book, super easy in your book is that you're going through how many, like, how many cues you have.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

97.

[Russell Brunson]

97 that are in this book?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, 97 cues in the book. And by the way, there are 97 cues in the book. Some are warm. Like, they're very, very warm cues. Like, for example, a head tilt is a universal cue of warmth. When we expose our ear to the side, you perceive me as warmer. Like, if I were to listen to you and deliver with a head tilt, you would perceive me as a little bit warmer. There's also competent cues. There are cues that make someone look smart. These are cues that smart people do. People in positions of power typically do. There are some c that are so good. They're both warm and competent. Those are, like, the best ones. And there's danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are cues that immediately take away from your perceived likability and competence. And I do want to make a note here. This is all based on foundational research. It is not my research. It's based on Dr. Susan Fisk's research out of Princeton, who found this model in 2002. It's been replicated many times of how we judge warmth and competence. But here's the problem, and this is what took my breath away when I read the study the first time. This is not your actual warmth and competence. It's your perceived warmth and competence. And this is the problem and the curse of very smart people. All of my students are high achieving, very smart people, but they don't always show it. In fact, they have exceptionally good ideas. Typically they're like, my data speaks for itself, my product speaks for itself, My numbers speak for themselves. And so they prepare for the content, but they don't practice the delivery. And so they under signal competence and under signal warmth. If you under signal, you are telling people to doubt and dismiss you because your cues tell others how to treat you. So if you are sending signals of warmth and competence, you will be treated with more trust and credibility. You also inspire. It cares on people are very contagious. If you under signal, you are stoic, you are sterile, you don't show enough of the warmth and competence. People cannot believe you. They cannot. They're not getting enough of the social signals from you to be able to say, ah, I can trust this person, I can rely on them. And video has made this even harder because on zoom, you can't see my feet, you can't see my body positioning. We weren't able to handshake or hug. You weren't able to smell me. Like all those things are happening in person. And so when we only have video or even only audio, we're really limiting the number of of signals we're sending. So we have to work even harder to show people you can trust me and you can believe me.

[Russell Brunson]

That's so cool. Well, I'm excited to dive a lot deeper into your work and understand it all. It's so fascinating. You have your next book coming out in a couple months or one month or even right now anyway, what's the next transition? Because I'm curious. At least for me. I've got evolution of my books as they go through the process. Like, what's after cues? What's coming next?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so captivate was first impressions and memorability cues was body language. A little bit of verbal in there. And this one is called Conversation. I just love those C words. I just love them. I. I realized that there is a blueprint for conversation and people didn't know it. It's actually researched by Dr. Dan McAdams, who looked at how we connect with people, and there are three levels we have to move through in a conversation to be able to feel connected. And it is why we have bad small talk. The reason why awkward people like me were having awkward conversations is because I did not know how to get out of level one. I was trapped in that small talk. So how are you? How's the fam? Been busy. I could not get out of that trap. And so there is a way to get out of it. And so this book is on those three levels. And then I give nine power questions that I hope that people will use and ask everyone in their life to be able to level up if they so choose. So it's literally a decade of work and research to develop these nine questions. We started just. I think you're. You love data. I had, I had this science. I knew about this science about these three levels. I was testing it. I was teaching with my students. We have, you know, thousands of students in my course, people, school, and I would have them test different questions for me. And we had a list of 60 hypotheses, 60 questions that I thought maybe these could be unlocks. And so we would run speed networking tests. I'd have my students test these questions narrowed down to nine. Like, only nine were the unlock ones. Because it's a very hard of a question to balance cracking someone open, but also social acceptance. Like, I wish I could just start every conversation with what's your greatest fear? But we cannot. So these are, like, socially acceptable questions. So that's coming.

[Russell Brunson]

That's amazing. Then is that gonna be the trilogy? Put them all together and then you. Is it gonna be more after that, or you think that's it? You never know.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I might pick a different letter.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I might make the next trilogy. I, I, I won't tell you the word. There's an I word and there's an E word I'm thinking about.

[Russell Brunson]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I like when things. Things match. I like. I can't help it.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, No, I love it. It's so cool. Well, this has been so much fun. I don't get to do a lot of interviews like this, and so it's just really fun to. To see the way you look at the world and how you see everything. And I'm really excited to dive a lot deeper with everything and glad to finally connect and get to know you. For all of my, my funnel hackers, my people who are, who are in this journey, somewhere along the way, what's the best place for them to connect you and learn more about you and like, plug into all the stuff you're doing?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. So I am Vanessa Van Edwards on all the socials, I think, @vanedwards on Instagram. I would love if you would join my email list. I am a funnel hacker. And you also will now know the science behind my email newsletter.

[Russell Brunson]

I know what she's doing.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Got a warm one here. I've got a competent one here, and that'[e-mail]. that's my brand and I give a free icebreaker, a social tip, every Monday. So my goal is that you'll use the icebreaker in your team meetings or your family dinners or your date night or your friends. My whole goal is just to have better conversation. I promise to be aggressively helpful. That's, that's my, that's my promise. And Russell, I just want to thank you so much for, I was saying to my brother, my brother is with us here at my house with me. And I was like, Russell gave away, like, just like, gave away his business secrets. Like, I, I was so shocked when I read your book for the first time, Expert Secrets for the first time. And I was like, he's just telling us the secrets. No one shares this. And I'm so grateful because I don't know if I would have been able to afford to keep going without that. You know, I, I, I wasn't able to financially figure out the financial piece of the business until I started doing webinars and courses. So I'm just so grateful for you being so aggressively helpful and sharing that content because it's, it's, it allowed me to be able to do this work.

[Russell Brunson]

Yeah, well, thank you for, for doing the, like. I'm sure you're the same way, like, the most rewarding thing in the world to see people take your work and do something with it. And, like, there's nothing, nothing better than that. So I got your message and you're like, you know, I learned from you. I'm like, ah, this is the coolest thing. Like, that was the, the best gift I could have gotten.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So one day, I'll share whenever you want. I'll share my numbers with you so you can see, like, how good, how good they are. Like, how much they convert. They convert really well. So.

[Russell Brunson]

Well, I'm gonna go watch them all. They're on YouTube, right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, they're on YouTube. Oh, my goodness. Don't watch the old ones. They're embarrassing. I was, like, figuring it out.

[Russell Brunson]

Oh, that's the. Cool. So thanks so much. I appreciate you, and I really enjoyed hanging out today on the podcast.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thanks so much for everything.