The Ryan Leak Podcast – “Challengers and Champions”

Host: Ryan Leak
Date: May 4, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Ryan Leak explores the essential roles of "champions" and "challengers" in personal and professional growth. Drawing from the historical roots of the “devil’s advocate” and its counterpart, the “God’s advocate,” Ryan demonstrates how both supportive encouragement and constructive challenge are necessary for reaching our highest potential. The episode offers actionable advice on cultivating these relationships and emphasizes the wisdom of embracing both voices in our circles.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Devil's Advocate: History and Purpose

Origin of the Phrase:
- Ryan introduces the commonly used expression "let me play devil's advocate" and traces its roots to the Catholic church’s sainthood process in the 1500s (02:13).
- “In the year 1587, Pope Sixtus V created an official position called the Advocatus Diaboli… The formal title was actually the promoter of the faith. This person’s entire job…was to argue against the candidate becoming a saint.” (04:00)
Role in Sainthood:
- One person (devil’s advocate) was assigned to find flaws in the candidate’s case, while another (God’s advocate) made the case in favor (05:35).
- “One building the case, the other stress testing it. And together, they arrived at the truth.” (06:06)

2. The Framework for Growth

Wisdom in Both Roles:
- “That’s not just a canonization process. I believe it’s actually a framework for growth.” (06:18)
- Ryan proposes that having both a champion (builder) and a challenger (tester) in our lives is critical for authentic personal and professional development (07:10).

3. The Champion: Builders and Believers

Who Is the Champion?
- “Your champion is the friend who believes in you sometimes before you even believe in yourself. They’re the one who sees the potential before the proof shows up.” (08:15)
Why Champions Matter:
- Champions pull us forward especially during low moments. “There are days when the inner critic is louder than the inner coach…your champion pulls you forward and they say, ‘Hey, I refuse to let you shrink back.’” (10:07)
- Ryan credits his wife, parents, and close friends as his personal champions (11:00).

4. The Challenger: Truth Speakers and Refiners

Who Is the Challenger?
- “Our challenger is the friend who loves us enough to speak up. They’re the ones that can say, ‘Hey, that was really good, but let’s just be honest. Was it your best?’” (13:07)
- Challengers push us to consider alternative perspectives and reach higher standards.
The Danger of Only Having Champions:
- Ryan humorously references ChatGPT:
  - “ChatGPT be telling people they’re amazing when they’re not…Ryan, you’re brilliant. I’m like, Chat, you’re lying. That’s not brilliant.” (12:00)
- Solely having cheerleaders leads to stagnation: “If all you have are people in your life who clap for you, you’ll start to believe that everything you do is great and that you don’t need to grow.” (11:25)
Permission and Honesty:
- Challengers need explicit permission to give honest feedback, or else their words feel like an ambush (16:13).
- “If you punish honesty, you’ll only get flattery. And flattery has never built anything worth having.” (17:20)

5. Practical Advice: Building Your Circle

Balanced Relationships:
- “Build your circle with both voices. The one who lifts you up and the one who levels with you. The one who says you’re amazing and the one who says you’re not done yet, my friend.” (18:07)
- “The greatest ideas don’t just survive, they survive scrutiny. And the people who reached their full potential, well, they didn’t just have fans, they have friends. Friends who were brave enough to play both roles.” (19:02)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Sainthood Process:
- “Can you just imagine that for a minute? And they didn’t do it because they didn’t like the person. They did it because something as important as sainthood needed to be able to withstand scrutiny.” (05:00)
On Champions:
- “They remind you who you are, especially when life tries to make you forget. They’re the ones standing in the front row of your life and they’re clapping long before anyone even knows your name.” (09:07)
On Challengers:
- “There are some people in your life that are there to help you feel better, but then there’s other people in your life that help you do better. We need both in the room.” (14:22)
On Honesty:
- “If you punish honesty, you’ll only get flattery. And flattery has never built anything worth having.” (17:20)

Timestamps for Important Segments

Introduction and Theme: 00:00 – 02:13
Origin and History of ‘Devil’s Advocate’: 02:13 – 05:35
Framework for Growth—Two Roles: 06:06 – 07:10
The Champion Defined: 08:15 – 11:00
The Challenger Defined: 13:07 – 16:13
Permission and Building Relationships: 16:13 – 19:02
Closing Advice: 18:07 – 19:45

Summary

Ryan Leak’s “Challengers and Champions” episode is a concise but deep dive into how growth happens within tension—the encouragement of a champion balanced by the truth-telling of a challenger. By drawing insight from centuries-old traditions and modern experiences, Ryan invites listeners to reflect: “Who are your champions? Who are your challengers? And do both have a seat in your life?” His message is clear—sustained excellence and personal progress come from giving both roles an intentional place in our inner circle.

Transcript

A (0:00)

What's going on, My friends, welcome back to the Ryan Leek Podcast, where we love to keep things short and sweet for you each and every week. Each episode is really just a small nugget of inspiration that we believe can add tremendous value to your life. Today's episode, I want to talk to you about champions and challengers. Champions and challengers. You've heard it a hundred times. Somebody in a meeting leans forward and says, let me play devil's advocate for a second. Like we've heard this phrase, right? I want to play devil's advocate. I want to bring a contrarian view to what we are talking about in that moment. And everybody in that room in that moment quietly braces themselves for impact. Because we all know what's coming. They're about to poke a hole in your idea. They're about to challenge something that felt solid five seconds ago. And now, because they're speaking, it doesn't feel as solid. These are the people that can, you know, you feel like you walked in the room with balloons for somebody's birthday, and they're the person that just stands up and just pokes a hole in every single balloon. And it just feels like the air just gets sucked out of them. And most of us, we don't love that, right? But today I actually want to flip the script on that phrase because I think when you understand where the phrase devil's advocate actually comes from, I actually think that it's one of the most important roles that any one of us could invite into our life. Back in the 1500s, the Catholic Church had a process for whenever they were considering somebody for sainthood. And it was not a quick process at all, okay? It was a full blown investigation. They'd gather witnesses, they would examine, quote, unquote, miracles. If that person would say, yeah, I've performed miracles, they would. They would say, okay, if this person was blind and now they see, they would do a full on investigation. They would dig into a person's character. And it's interesting, in the year 1587, Pope Sixtus V created an official position called the Advocatus Diaboli. Okay, it's Latin, so I could totally be saying that wrong. Nevertheless, it's Latin for devil's advocate. The formal title was actually the promoter of the faith. Now here's what's wild. This person's entire job, okay, their literal assignment was to argue against the candidate becoming a saint. They were supposed to find cracks, question the miracles, examine the character flaws, cross examine the witnesses. Basically, they were the prosecutor in A sainthood trial. Can you just imagine that for a minute? And they didn't do it because they didn't like the person. They did it because something as important as as sainthood needed to be able to withstand scrutiny. If the case couldn't survive tough questions, then maybe it wasn't as strong as everybody thought. But here's what most people don't know. The devil's advocate wasn't working alone. There was also an opposite role. Now, this was called the advocatus D. Okay, and again, I could be saying that completely wrong. But the advocatus D was what they would call God's advocate, also known as the promoter of the cause. And their job was to argue for the candidate to build the case, to present the evidence of miracles in heroic virtue and a life well lived. So I want you to picture this for just a moment. You've got two people in the room. One whose job is to champion the candidate, the other whose job is to challenge the candidate. One building the case, the other stress testing it. And together they arrived at the truth. Not one or the other, both. That's not just a canonization process. I believe it's actually a framework for growth. Think about that for a second. The church, one of the most powerful institutions in the history of the world, said, hey, before we put this person on a pedestal, we need someone to build them up and we need someone to challenge them. And we need both voices in the room. I don't think that that's negativity. I think that that's actually wisdom. I believe that you and I need two kinds of friends. If we want to grow, we need two kinds of friends. You need someone in your life who that's going to play God's advocate. This is your champion. And you need someone who's going to play devil's advocate. This is your challenger. Your champion is the friend who believes in you sometimes before you even believe in yourself. They're the one who sees the potential before the proof shows up. They're the one who says, hey, you should really go for this. You're ready. You belong in the room. They are the ones that are going to champion your cause. They remind you who you are, especially when life tries to make you forget. They're the ones standing in the front row of your life and they're clapping long before anyone even knows your name. And here's the deal. We all need a champion desperately. Because, let's just be honest, there are days when you just don't believe in yourself. Days when the inner critic is louder than the inner coach. Days when you're about to talk yourself out of something great. And in those moments, your champion pulls you forward and they say, hey, hey, I refuse to let you shrink back. I refuse to let you talk yourself out of being great. And I got a lot of people in my life like that. I think about my wife, I think about my parents. I think about my close friends that have championed me throughout my life. So, yes, I think we all need a champion, a person who builds us up. But if that's the only voice in our life, then we've got a problem. Because if all you have are people in your life who clap for you, you'll start to believe that everything you do is great and that you're awesome and that you don't need to grow. It's kind of like chatgpt sometimes. Chatgpt. Let's just be honest. Chatgpt be telling people they're amazing when they're not. Let's just get that out there for just a moment, okay? In fact, I've tossed it a few bad ideas on purpose just to see what happens. And it's like, ryan, you're brilliant. I'm like, chat, you're lying. That's not brilliant. I was testing you, and you failed miserably, okay? So at some point, we have to realize not everything we do is great. We're not always awesome, and nobody is batting a thousand in their life. The reality is, if all we have is cheerleaders all the time, we will stop growing, we will stop refining, we will stop getting better. That's why I think you and I desperately also need a challenger. Our challenger is the friend who loves us enough to speak up. They're the ones that can say, hey, that was really good, but let's just be honest. Was it your best? They're the ones who say, hey, but have you thought about this from the other side? I know what they said was awful, but what do you think made them go there? Is there another side to this that maybe we're not seeing? I mean, where your champion might say, yeah, you can do it, Your challenger would say, yeah, but you could do it better. Like, there are some people in your life that are there to help you feel better, but then there's other people in your life that help you do better. We need both in the room. The champion and the challenger, the builder and the stress tester, the one who says, go, and also the one who says, not yet. But the trick is with the challenger, the only way that relationship can thrive is if you give them permission to challenge. If they don't have permission, their words will always feel like an ambush. A lot of people will see problems in people in their life. They'll see problems all around, but they just feel like they have to stay quiet because they don't want to rock the boat. Your challenger has to be someone who's willing to rock the boat, even if it means keeping you from sinking the ship. Think about that for a second. You have to give them permission. You have to say the words to the person playing devil's advocate. I want you to challenge me. I want you to tell me what's not working. I want you to ask the questions nobody else will. And I promise you, I won't punish you for being honest. And that's gotta be the deal, because if you punish honesty, you'll only get flattery. And flattery has never built anything worth having. So I'm going to encourage you today. Build your circle with both voices. The one who lifts you up and the one who levels with you. The one who says you're amazing and the one who says you're not done yet, my friend. Because the greatest ideas don't just survive. APPLAUSE they survived scrutiny. And the people who reached their full potential, well, they didn't just have fans, they have friends. Friends who were brave enough to play both roles. Champions and challengers. Thanks for listening to the Ryan Lee podcast, my friends. If today's episode inspired you, I would ask that you don't keep it to yourself. Share it with a friend. And hey, it would mean the world to me if you take a moment to rape your view and subscribe. Your support helps us reach even more people with these short and sweet nuggets of inspiration. Thanks for being a part of the journey. I'll see you next time.