← The Ryen Russillo Podcast
The Ryen Russillo Podcast
Anthony Edwards’s Frustrations, Knicks-Pacers Game 4, and Prepping for a Crazy Offseason With Brian Windhorst
01:25:31
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- [00:00]
Ryan Marcillo
You're listening to the Ryan Marcillo podcast presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem? Call 100 GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.
- [00:51]
Brian Windhorst
On.
- [00:51]
Ryan Marcillo
Today'S pod we're going to break it down. OKC takes the 31 lead in the Western Conference Finals against Minnesota. Love for all of them, the participating players, with the Thunder and a big breakdown of Ant and some of his struggles and my frustrations, not just his. Brian Windhorst on the Easter Conference Finals Understanding Cat There's a lot to get into there. He's going to talk a lot about Minnesota, a lot about okc, and then we'll look ahead to even some potential scenarios this offseason. And we've got life advice. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. All new McCrispy strips new McCrispy strips are here. It's chicken made for dipping. Tender, juicy white meat chicken with a golden brown peppery breading. It's chicken so good it deserves its own sauce. The Creamy Chili McCrispy Strip Dip. It's creamy, savory and sweet with a little heat. But strips work with any of their sauces. I've always been a massive fan of ketchup. New McCrispy strips and dip only at McDonald's. Great game last night. OKC taking the series lead in Minnesota 3 1. This was an absolute battle. I enjoyed it greatly. I do believe that OKC is the only team in the NBA that wins that game in Minnesota last night. Minnesota shot it better. Slightly better. 51% overall though. 54% on threes. They shot seven more free throws. They made six more. They were plus five in rebounds. They were 30 to 22 in assists. They won the points to paint and yes, they did have seven more turnovers. But even with the seven more turnovers, OKC was only plus three in points off of turnovers. So there's A huge statistical profile that tells you, like, you don't lose that basketball game when you do so much of what Minnesota did last night. Minnesota's largest lead in the game. Any guesses? Two points. This was a possession game. That's really what it came down to. Because the most important stat from this, despite everything that I told you about the Timberwolves profile of Game 4, was that OKC finished with 11 more field goal attempts. At one point in the second half, they had 19 more field goal attempts. So that's how you win this game, by winning the possession battle. The other factor that maybe some of you, when you would hear me say, because basically, hey, did somebody have an observation? How can we dismantle that observation? I saw a bit of that last night when I said I thought okc. And this is a credit to their toughness and what those guys did in the fourth quarter. We're going to get to Chet SGA and Jalen Williams a little bit later here in the open. But you could simply point to be like, well, the reason Minnesota lost is because Ant and Randall were terrible. Okay, but. But everybody else is like, I just thought it was such a tough game to win because of how Minnesota just kept hanging around, even though I thought throughout it. You know, you watch a game for two and a half hours. You know, first quarter's over, second quarter, you're like, all right, how do I feel? I'm like, this is OKC's game. The entire night in, Minnesota would not go away, but OKC would not give up that lead. So Ant has two shot attempts in the first half. Yes, two total shot attempts. He finishes with 16 points. Randall in 28 minutes, one of seven five points. He was benched at eight hundred and seven in the fourth quarter, did come back in with 14 seconds left. So you've got 16 from Ant, five from Randall. That's 21 versus 74 points for SGA and Jalen Williams. Let's start with the defense on Ant. Because it was a huge part of this game. It looked like OKC a more concerted effort to extend the pressure. It felt like once Ant was trying to bring the ball up by half court, Dort would meet him at the half court line. And it looked like he was. Dort was hitting a blocking sled, would just get his hands into him, just muck it up. So it's like, okay, you're bringing the ball across half court, but whatever. The first thing that you want to do is like, I'm going to be in the way and Dort is incredible. Door had a defensive possession against Randall where Randall was trying to body him and Randall was trying to get to like, either side and he tried two or three different times and Dort just met him body for body and cut him off all three times. It was just outstanding stuff. And so you have Dort, who's one of the best defense players in the league. We already know this. Just deciding whenever ant comes across half court, I'm just going to be in the way and knowing that he would have helped the entire time. Cause like sometimes when you watch teams, the defensive pressure and they extend it out too far, it's like, okay, but you're actually against a really athletic player. You're opening yourself up to like you want that guy on you so that you can kind of take him off the dribble and then you're behind him. He's scrambling to get back into the play. But when OKC's entire team defensive strategies to make sure that there's support for any chance that Dort gets beat, you know, it's something you can get away with. There's other Randall possessions too, where it's like, if you really want Randall dribbling this far away, like Randall's one thing when he's below the three point line and trying to create. Although against okc, you're not going to have a lot of time to freelance, as we know. But other times where he's like five feet past the three point line and you're like, what is going on here? Like, he's starting a back down dribble from up here and like, this isn't going to work. So really good. Extended defensive pressure from the Thunder throughout this game. Staying on the Ant part of this because even though we had the two field goal attempts in the first half, you could go, what's, what's going on with him? I was way more disappointed in Ant last night. In the second half, the off ball stuff from him, it's not enough. So they want to get the ball out of his hands because of the door pressure and the defense prioritizing him. So it's like if you get him off the ball, can you then bring him up a little bit later and maybe he gets some momentum and it frees up the defense or frees up Ant to attack this defense from a different angle. And I saw anti dejected at times, disinterested at times. And as much as I love him, like, that's not something I expect. You want to have a bad shooting night, fine. And I'm not asking him just to take 20 shots. So it's like, well, cool. At least he was still aggressive, because, sure, he could take 20 shots, and I think 15 of them would have been really bad last night with the way the Thunder were defending him, but he just wasn't aggressive enough because I think he was so frustrated with what was happening. There was one play where he was left to right. It's in the second and half. He's off the ball. The ball's at the top. He's left. He trails underneath the ball. He's hoping maybe to get a handoff or get something off the cut. He can't get himself free from Dort, and he just runs to the right side, and he's just done. He's done with that play and ended up being a shot clock violation. Now, you could argue he doesn't want to bring Dort back into the well. There was just too much of this stuff. There was too much of this stuff where it's like, oh, I. I tried to make a cut. They shut me off. Caruso even had some good off ball stuff with him a couple times. Obviously, not as much Dort, but that's something that is not acceptable. You want to make the right play and not shoot a ton in the first half. I'm totally fine with that. But if you start getting so frustrated that it's leading to lapses on defense. 4. I think he had four total rebounds last night. Like, that's where his. His frustration leaked into all the other parts of his game, which is something, I think, in the past when he hasn't shot it. Well, you've still gotten max effort and max impact from him on those other parts of this. Look, there was another play. There was a million of these that I could go to, but one in particular where even if ant had the ball, like, they had a play with Rudy where he screened Dort twice. He gets Dort off of him a little. I emphasize, like, a little there. And he's on the right side, and he's looking at Chet ignoring Rudy right in his face. And Wallace is off of the corner, doesn't care about the corner at all. And Dort actually hustles and gets back into the play before Ann has even settled into, like, what he's going to do. That was at 107. 100 with 655 left. They just brought Rudy back in. They just brought Chet back in a little bit here on Rudy. Rudy's basically a must in this series. Whatever the highs and lows are of him. And we've seen this throughout this entire playoff run from Minnesota where Finch is like, okay, I like the Rudy minutes. I don't. I like some of the other stuff that we're doing here a little bit better. But Rudy feels like a necessity because at least he is something to think about for Oklahoma City driving to the hoop. And I would tell you, I don't know what the numbers are, but just the visual part of it, because maybe the free throws are going to throw off the efficiency here with sga. But I think Rudy, for the most part's held up really well against SGA in some of these battles where he's gotten stuck with him in the switch. So I think I've covered the ant stuff enough here because I got into that play. I already had that written down. Look, OKC answered every single time last night in a way that you just don't expect a young team. You know, I don't know what's. What's right or wrong about how we're supposed to talk about them. Was there enough seasoning in the 24 playoff run, losing in the second round, a series where I really still didn't think they were going to lose to Dallas? They lose to Dallas. Jalen Williams doesn't do enough as a number two. You know, hey, they're young. They're going to be back at it next year. They battle with Denver. More of a battle than we probably thought it would be going into that. But maybe growing up in that game five, certainly growing up last night in game four. But you wonder, like, vet teams blow leads, too, by the way. But okc, every time it was like, here comes Minnesota. You know, they get it to two, it's right back to five. Now it's seven. Minnesota gets it to two. You know, all of these moments where you're like, is Minnesota going to find a way to pull this one out? OkC answered every time and never actually gave up the lead. At any moment in the second half, I think it was 91, 91. And then it was just this seesawing of 2 to 5, to 7 to 4, just over and over and over again. And it felt like everybody for OKC made the shots they needed to make. And it wasn't just sga, as we know. Chet was four or five in the fourth. Jalen Williams was five of seven in the fourth. You know, this is something that we've always grown accustomed to in the NBA and be like, hey, who's your big three? We don't do that. Anymore, we're probably not going to be doing it for a long time. The Thunder looked like they had a big three last night with what they got from their three main guys. Even though Kayson Wallace didn't even shoot it well. I thought he had some huge plays, just heady stuff. A strip of Rudy that was big, you know, reading Chet on that dunk on the offensive rebound where they pulled that one down. So there was just. The depth was on display for the Thunder. And I think probably the most frustrating play, if you're the Timberwolves fan, is it's 113, 109, 334 to go in the game. SGA falls down trying to get Rudy, falls down, throws it to Jalen Williams. He hits another 3, 116, 109. And you're like, okay, maybe this is over. And it still really wasn't over. On the other side from Minnesota, DiVincenzo had a really good night, but everything's open. DIVINCENZ should be 50% from 3 in in these games. All of these shots are wide open. I know he hit a couple shots in the first quarter. I didn't think he was very good in the first quarter, but he turned it around, hit everything. Alexander Walker was incredible. Jamie McDaniels, who I do like, but can have like seven in the first quarter. Then you look at the game and you're like, he ended up with nine. Like, oh, that's right. I guess I didn't really notice him on offense the rest of the game. He finished with 22 points. So they got everything around the two guys that you needed to win this game. But, you know, the number two shot creator for Minnesota is watching all of this again in the fourth quarter in Randall, just like he was in game two, where the number two shot creator, pick one, between Cheddar, Jalen Williams, are putting up massive numbers. So I think the last thing I would say about this OKC team, because again, I'm just in awe of this group. I really am. They were weird. Well, look, they've been weird at times where you're like, what's the personality of this team? Like, what? What's their fucking deal, Right? Remember game seven? Or, excuse me, game six at Denver. And it's like, are these guys not taking this seriously enough? Are they. I don't know the right way to describe it. I think those of you that have paid attention to this understand what I'm trying to say, but you're watching them just be almost, like, completely unbothered by this like, they're not going to have anybody get up at the podium and be like, we need, you know, all of these cliche things that we seem to all fall for and we want to hear, we feel like are mandatory, that that shows us that they care. But maybe that's the best way to describe it. After some of these losses, you could think with them, it's like, do they not care enough? And game three was such a blowout. It was a blowout from the jump. So I don't really know what they were supposed to say, but I think what we're learning. And yes, there's still a lot of work to do, but they're the clear favorites the rest of the way. I don't think they're going to blow a 31 lead in Minnesota here as much as I admire what Minnesota did in game four last night. But maybe what we're learning is that their lack of passion at times when they've had a bad performance is really more of a reflection how incredibly confident this young group is. Even without a title on the resume, the NBA playoffs are finally here, and there's no better way to be a part of the action than with FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. After another competitive season, the top teams are ready to battle their way through the playoff bracket in hopes of taking home the championship. And if you think you know how it's all going to go down, then make those predictions pay off. With FanDuel an NBA profit boost, simply make your bet, activate your boost, and go for even bigger winnings. Okay, taking a look at tonight, game four at Indiana. The line here, Pacers -2 total on this one is 221. So if you look at the totals, granted we had an overtime game that had an absurd number of points. Game two was 225. Game three was only 206. So we saw such an undertrend with the playoffs in the beginning of this whole thing. I even was looking at game five with OKC in Minnesota. I think that's a 222 as of right now. But I'm feeling over. I'm feeling people kind of feeling each other out here. Maybe no knee Smith. So let's go. Pacers -2 over 221. That's +240. I don't know if the handicappers are looking at this one thinking that game three is, you know, they don't want to set that number too low and they think this, this series is going in the other direction where they're going to be more familiar with each other. Things are going to kind of. But honestly with these two teams going at it and probably knowing exactly what they need to attack here, I like the over in this one so and look, it's a little bit more fun. Don't just be a spectator this PostSeason. Head to FanDuel.com Ryan R Y E N to download America's number one sports book and make every moment more must be 21 and older and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued is non withdrawable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rd-help.com this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. If you're in B2B marketing, you want to make sure you're not wasting your ads on the wrong people. I remember when I was younger and I would watch games on television and I thought, man, a lot of ads about retirement. Who's this for? And then I got older and I understood it. I was like, oh, now it makes sense. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. You can target your buyers based on job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue, all the professionals you need to reach in one place. Stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign so you can try it out yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com rrs that's LinkedIn.com rrs terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. I'm excited to talk to Brian Windhorse from ESPN and also one of my favorite podcasts, the Hoop Collective with Tim BonTemps and Tim McMahon. I do enjoy the pod. Three educated guys talk about sport. Yeah, I love sometimes I think you guys are arguing, but you're saying the same thing, which at times can make it very entertaining.
- [18:02]
Brian Windhorst
Well, you know, the thing about it is we do it. We often do it very late at night and at the end of like a long ESPN day, which you know what a long ESPN day is. And it frazzles the mind a little bit, it addles the brain. There's not always perfect common sense operating.
- [18:20]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, no, I, I understand we had some late, late ones with Bill where I'm like, what the hell did I say? But let's, let's dig into this because there's a bunch of different things that we can get to. I do want to start because I started the pod on the Western Conference finals in the game last night. I want to start with New York getting game three. And it was really interesting to watch. Tibbs, you know, made the change of the starters with Mitchell Robinson in for Hart, and then had, I think, at one point, seven different lineups that hadn't played together in a regular season. They're losing, and you're like, oh, here we go. Tibbs is experimenting. Like this shows desperation, and then they win the game. Where were you with the delicate nature of, of the way Tibbs? And I don't love the like, oh, he did something different. Now he opens himself up to criticism. I don't think coaches actually look at it that way as much as the media does, but there was a moment where it was like, oh, they're shot, because look at all these things they're trying in the playoffs.
- [19:12]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I, He. He was. It was a potentially very messy next day because it was, you know, here's the way I think it was beginning of a new news cycle. So if you're starting a new week, and I know it was a holiday, but you're starting a new week and The Knicks are down 3, 0, you know that the world is not giving the Pacers credit. That doesn't happen. It annoys me, but that's the case. And so it would have been all about the decisions to do what he did. And I actually thought the. The decision that was the boldest decision happened at the end, which was to keep Brunson on the bench. I know he had five fouls, but you don't have to wait till a minute and a half. You know, you bring him. He kept him on the bench because what was out there was working, and it's not an insult. This is where we get into nuance, and it's so dangerous in today's day and age to get into nuance. Not so much for your listeners, but for the aggregation that happens. It's the second and third level. But he didn't keep him on the bench because he doesn't think he's a great player. He kept him on the bench because he knew the alignment that he had on the court was more favorable than if he put him out there. And that's what took guts. It didn't take guts. To play Landry Sham in the first half, I mean, you know, that was out of his comfort zone. But the guts was to leave Brunson on the bench when his team was playing really, really well. And he liked the alignment when Brunson was staring at him like, why aren't you putting me in the game? And then he put Brunson in the game at the exact correct moment for Brunson to still have an impact on the game. And he was kept his two timeouts so he could do offense, defense, and take Brunson and Cat out of the game. I think in the last, like 90 seconds, I think they only had to defend with those guys once, maybe twice, but there was once. And of course, immediately the Pacers put the two of them into a pick and roll. And the Knicks survived it. They got a stop out of it. And so I thought Tibbs strongest coaching happened at the end when all the lineups were already scrambled out there. Um, and it was out of his comfort zone. And had he lost, he would have had to explain it differently. And I. I wonder how much pressure he felt, because I don't think his philosophy changed after game two. I don't think he was like, well, what I believe is now no longer valid. I have to switch my belief. And I'm wondering how much pressure he felt after game two to be able to say that he did something, because you don't play one way for the entire playoffs and then change in that spot. But I give him credit. He. He pulled it off when it mattered.
- [22:01]
Ryan Marcillo
How would you describe Cat to someone who's just getting into basketball?
- [22:05]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, he's an awkward guy. Actually. Cat and. And Halliburton have the same feature. They have a very high waist. This is what scouts will talk about, where they have long legs and a very high waist. And it makes both of them look a little awkward. Did you see the Steve Urkel, Tyrese Halliburton thing? It was hilarious and everything. The reason that people look at Tyrese Halliburton and compare him to Steve Urkel, if you're a person of a certain age, is because Urkel always had the high pants, has a high waist. So Townes is going to look a little awkward because he has very long legs relative to your average NBA player. And as a result, when he moves, he moves. He moves in a different fashion than you normally see an NBA player move. So I'll give you an example. When he hit that big three in the fourth quarter and he kind of some. I can't remember Which Pacer kind of came out, I think was Siakam, came up under him and he kind of like sprawled on the ground like a, like a spider. That was just because, you know, he falls awkwardly, he does things awkwardly. So he's a player that. Even if he was the quintessential NBA player, you're going to look at him playing a little awkwardly. The other thing is he is a big man who prefers to play on the perimeter. Now we're kind of comfortable seeing that. We see that a lot, but it is a little bit, you know, awkward. He plays outside in instead of inside out. That's his preference. He's very good at it. And so you see a guy who plays that way and then he has sort of unusual mannerisms for an NBA player. You know, the way he talks and the way he makes his, you know, his facial expressions, the way he, you know, come on and everything like that and all that stuff. You put all that together and you have a guy who's just a little bit awkward, but he's super duper crazy talented. And here's the other thing. The guy just absolutely puts up statistics. Like just every game you're like, well, cat didn't really do much. What's he got? Oh, he's got 17 and 12, you know, and because he's not really demonstrative and because he looks awkward sometimes, you don't give him credit for getting great rebounds. But he's a great rebounder. He's one of the top five rebounds bounders in the league. So he's a, he's a, he's a bit of a one way player. He struggles defensively at times. When he came into the league, there was this belief that he could be a great switchable big, but he hasn't really turned out that way. And so sometimes he gets embarrassed defensively and people like to pick at it, but on balance he can do a lot of damage and that's why he just got voted to the all NBA team. You know, you don't fall backwards into the all NBA team. Okay. And so that's how I would describe them. I don't know if you agree or not.
- [25:17]
Ryan Marcillo
I love that it started with the high waist thing, I'll admit. Let me see where I want to go with this. Like, I think game three was like the perfect Cat experience because it's been two and a half games at that point when they got down big. And granted the Knicks put together that really important stretch to close the first half where it's like, okay, this is, this is not as. At one point you're like, I guess the Pacers are just this much better than them. And I thought this would be a good series. I thought that they were close. I picked the Pacers, but in game three, I'm like, are they this much better than them? And I'm thinking about like, how does Cat become available? How does someone with his talent, his size, his age, how does that person become available? Well, we know because of the defensive start, the defensive stuff, and the plus minus of that starting group. And you're like, hey, the Pacers have something they can attack. When Brunson's out there or Cat's out there, there's like one or two things that they're going to attack over and over again. And it appears to be kind of the story of this series. And so there are these moments with him where I think, well, as talented as he is, as great of a shooter as he is, and you're totally right, like, not just the rebounding, how big he played, especially even in that Boston series where his size was a problem for their bigs the entire time. He didn't hit any threes in that series. And he still had such a huge. Because he made everything tough around the rim, especially when both he and Mitchell were out there. And I'm thinking of like all the downside to the Cat conversation. He scores 20 points in like six and a half minutes in the fourth quarter. And you're like, there's just not that many guys that could do that kind of stuff. And it's why you would ultimately want to trade for somebody like that. Even if the Randall DiVincenzo price tells you that maybe the market isn't as robust for him as it should be for somebody with his profile because of his contract. Yeah, I know, but some of these longer term contracts, Brian, like you go, you know, I only have to play that guy. 40 million. You know, there's some of these deals that I know that are massive, but in a very quick amount of time, it's like two years into doesn't feel as bad. So. And I think you pair that with the Randall part of this. Randall has these two great series and now you're starting to see, oh, this is why we've had all these questions about Randall this entire time. So there was a moment of like complete momentum swing and how you felt about these two players that we've probably updated how we felt about this trade 15 times this year.
- [27:52]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. And I also think that what happened in this game Was why one of the reasons why Cat's so unique. So Brunson goes out and they, you know, they're, they're struggling to generate offense so they just put Cat at the top of the floor and they kind of turn him into a point center. They cleared out and let him play ISO ball at the top of the floor. And this is where the Pacers were kind of in trouble because the Pacers were not aligned to play ISO ball with Cat at the top of the floor. First off, they have been trained to stick to the shooters. They were like, don't leave an anoby, don't leave Bridges. And then it's like, well now Landry Shammit's out there. What do we do with that? We, we still stick with Landry Shammit. I mean you should, but you know, you're probably going to try to let Landry Shamet beat you. So they're playing their, you know, they're seeing lineups they'd never prepared for. That's number one. So that's something you say about Tibbs, what he did. They were totally unprepared for the lineups that they had. The second thing is the weak spot on the whole Pacers roster is their backup center. That's no offense to those guys. But the reason it's so weak is that, believe it or not, and you'd have to be a Pacers fan to know this, they actually lost two centers this year to torn Achilles like within a month. James Wiseman and Isaiah Jackson. Now I'm not saying that James Wiseman is going to hall of Fame, but they're, they were scrambling throughout the year to the backup center and Thomas Bryant's the guy they got and Bryant was terrible in the first two games of this series. So they end up using Tony Bradley, who again, you have to be a Pacers fan to even know he was on the roster. Bradley was on 10 day contracts in March. Okay, so at the beginning of the fourth quarter, all of a sudden Brunson's, you know, well, Brunson's out and then he comes back in and gets a fifth. I take him out again. But Brunson's or Brunson's not out there. And Towns is playing isolation one on one against Bradley. Not good. What they should have done is gone to Obi Toppin, but they weren't quite ready. They weren't ready for it. And so Cats drive into the basket, hidden step backs, you know, what have you. And so part of it was just the awkwardness of the Situation, and they found a weak spot on the Pacers roster. And by the way, Miles Turner does a lot of things well, but guarding isolation in space, I mean, if you go back and watch the Cat, all those Cat shots, he's doing it all in. Miles Turner. Down the stretch, he toasted Miles Turner because again, the Pacers didn't have defenders. A dozen CAT isolations at the top of the key in their game plan. So that he can do that is one of the reasons why Cat is so valuable, because he's so talented that, you know, in the situation, if the situation calls for it, he can go do that and hit step backs or take the ball and put it on the floor and, you know, cut off the ball, catch and finish. Like, the guy is crazy talented for his size, and that's why he's paid what he's paid, and that's why the Knicks traded for him. He's not the perfect player, but he's got a lot going for him.
- [30:55]
Ryan Marcillo
And you know what? Just to pick up on something, too, with the contract, you're right. Like 40 million. I see 60 million at the end of this whole thing. But I'd argue that Turner is worse in those spots. As much as Cat gets attacked, I think Turner is worse having to deal with defending the guy on the ball, which I think we kind of knew going into it. All right, so now that you've seen three games, I don't know how you felt before the series wherever. Do you think the Pacers are better?
- [31:27]
Brian Windhorst
Maybe by a whisker, but not enough. Where I think it's like, oh, they should be the heavy favorite. This first three games could have gone anyway. This could be 3,0 nicks, it could be 30 pacers. It almost was 3,0 pacers. It could be 21 knicks. All of those things are in play. The difference between the team. This is one of the things that I would say after game two, people were saying it was over, and I was like, I mean, maybe, yes, winning four out of five is hard against anybody, but it's. There's not much difference between these teams. Like, it's thin. And now Aaron Neesmith has turned his ankle, and I don't know how he's going to play tonight. How am I supposed to know? Like, I. As soon as I saw it, I was like, that's one of those ankle injuries where you can get through the game. But, you know, this was a regular season. Neesmith wouldn't be playing. He would be out, you know, a game two to three that's how that, that's, that's. I mean, I've seen 100 of them. And so I don't know how he's going to be active. But I've also seen guys playing on sprained ankles who play great. There's some, you know, sprained ankles are very hard to. To deal with. And as Tibbs said after the game, you know, he was complimenting his own medical team. He's like, I'm not worried. We've got a great medical team. Sometimes you got a medical team that knows how to get your guy ready. And, you know, maybe the Pacers know exactly what to do to get a guy with a sprained ankle ready. So I don't know. But I will say that there's very little separation between these teams. And now you got one of the key players on the Indiana Pacers hobbled. So I have no. I mean, like, it's sort of looked down upon when people say that you don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen in this game. I don't know what's going to happen in this series. I think either team could still win it. I am extremely impressed by the Pacers. I've been saying this for months. They earned a lot of respect from me when I covered them in their run last year. I got to know a lot of their players and their systems. I have immense respect for Rick Carlisle, and I spent a week with the Pacers in Paris this year. The games were in Paris. It was San Antonio versus Indiana, and it was Victor's week, no doubt. But I made it my purpose to spend a bunch of time with the Pacers over there, went to their practices, talked to their people, went to the Eiffel Tower with them and. And watched him. And I said, this team at that time, they were barely there. Might have been at 500 or a game or two below. They were like in 11th, 9th or 11th place or something like that. And I was like, this team is still awesome. This because the reason they were bad at the start is because Nemhardt and Neesmith got hurt. I was like, this team is just really dangerous. I wasn't sitting there saying, they're going to go back to the conference finals, just to be clear, but I was like, do not forget about this team. So I've been talking about them for three, four months now, and I've been tracking their record, and I keep saying it, and I don't know if everybody knows this, but they're 35 intense in January 1st. I don't know if anybody knows is but they're 40 and 15, you know, whatever. And so I have immense respect for them. But they're not demonstratively better than the Knicks and they've had some incredible shot making that they've done, you know, the last couple series. The fact that they would miss a couple of shots in the fourth quarter this last game was not a surprise to me because you know, you can't make every clutch shot every series. At some point you're going to miss. And that's what half finally happened in game three.
- [34:57]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, it felt like they had a series worth of shots in game one to close that one out. But yeah, I'm with you there. I don't. If the Knicks had won the series, I wasn't going to be shocked. But it was ugly. It was ugly out there for Knicks fans. Say, I don't know, a few minutes to go in the second quarter of game three. Yeah, let's go to the. Look, let's, let's go to the West. It's a slightly different team with the Randall cap part that we've talked about. Minnesota's back in the Western Conference finals. You can do these really. I don't want to call it lazy, but like, well look, you know, Western Conference finals, it's the same group. I probably am still more disappointed in their Western Conference finals loss last year because of how I look at OKC this year versus last year's version of Dallas. But they, they lose a really tough one. I mean that was an all time playoff game last night. I really enjoyed it. It was and it was, it, it spoke to the toughness of okc. It spoke to Minnesota trying to find any possible way to stay in that game with ant struggles and Randall getting benched again. How do you look at Minnesota over the last two years? Like if, if they end up getting eliminated? Because that's how I feel like ultimately I think they're going to get eliminated now. Down three one. Like if you're Tim Conley and your ownership and taking stock of like who you are as a team, looking at the last two playoff runs.
- [36:17]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I think they did a really nice job in the draft this last year. They saw an opportunity to help get some, get some younger cheap guys that on the roster and I think one of the things you take away. I've been extremely impressed with Terrence Shannon in this series. I mean how could you not like you have to be excited about his future and Rob Dillingham was basically sidelined. He was told, he's told his rookie season was totally derailed by the injuries that he had. And so you. They've got some guys coming and they're going to need that because they just can't. I just don't know how they're going to keep this team together and pay for it all. So they've got. Randall's a free agent, Alex Nikhil Alexander Walker is a free agent and Nas reads a free agent. And I just don't see how they keep them all. There are, you know, scenarios with the whiteboard and the PowerPoint when you can show how you can do it, but I think it's going to be really hard. I mean, teams out there are already saying that they think, you know, there's teams out there who are thinking about, you know, going after. Naw, thinking that that's going to be a guy who shakes free, who can be an impact player, who they can get. So. But you know, they know that, you know, first off, they, they did the Rudy Gobert deal last fall where he opted out of his contract and he took his salary down for the next couple of years. He added money on the end of it and it looked like, oh my God, Rudy Gobert got another 100 million. By the way, one of my favorite moments of the entire playoffs was in the first round in la. I think it was in LA where somebody was heckling Gobert and I think Ant got fined. Another time when Ant got fined where Ant was defending Gobert's honor, saying, hey, that's a 200 million dollar player. And Rudy comes up, you know, I'm talking about, yeah, and Rudy goes, you know, with the French three, he goes, no, no, 300 million. He corrects Ant to tell the fan, I made 300 million. Anyway, that contract cleared out some space so that they, you know, on their cap so that they could, you know, maneuver that was. They were. Did they did that with purpose.
- [38:22]
Ryan Marcillo
I don't think Ant was fine for the accounting part of the commentary.
- [38:26]
Brian Windhorst
I think that's correct. I think you've got it right. By the way, Ann is giving sort of a silent protest. He hasn't gone back to the podium since he was fined. He skipped the podium altogether in game two, then game three where he has 30, he did it at his locker and then last night he did it as locker. And ideally, if you're a superstar, face of the league type guy, you're on the podium for 100 different reasons. And so he's. That, you know, he, he had one F bomb and it cost him 50 grand. And so I'm not speaking framp, I'm just telling you, like, I think he's trying to send a message back, like, well, you're not getting me to the podium then if you're going to find me for all this stuff, but whatever. So I think that they've, you know, they've, they've put themselves in position to keep this roster strong around Ant. They've made a couple of moves to try to keep it strong, and I think they will resign Julius Randall. It's just a matter of what they can agree to. But their problem is that they're going to have to climb Mount Thunder. That's a problem for everybody in the West. And if you were going to get the Thunder, this might have been the year to get them. And they haven't gotten there yet. They still need one more win to win the West. I've been around too long, but I watched Shay, Chet and J Dub last night and I'm thinking, how many times in the rest of this decade am I going to be coming off a playoff game? Is where I'm talking about these three dudes dominating a big playoff game. Because, Jalen, I get it. I work for espn. We, especially on the morning television shows, we have to focus on the stars. It's what our audience wants. But the focus on this game being on Ant Edwards only scoring 16 points, only taking 13 shots, it hurts me because this was a coronation moment for Jalen Williams, who hit big shot after big shot after big shot. This is a guy who hasn't shot the three ball well. It's plagued him at different times in his career. He hit a giant three in game five of the, of the semifinals against Denver, which that game and might end up being the biggest playoff game. I hope not. I hope there's bigger ones to come. But game five, Denver Thunder. Thunder down nine at home in the fourth quarter. That game might end up being the most relevant game in the playoffs. We'll see. But Jalen Williams, you know, backing up his all NBA status in this game was a big moment. And so it's hard for me to look at the Thunder or look at the Wolves and say, oh, yeah, yeah, they're built for to get right back here. And you know, they're going to, they're going to break through when I'm looking at who they're going to have to go against.
- [41:21]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, I was at the combine during Game 5, and it was one of those things where you're Kind of just talking to people and it was like, that might have been their growing up moment, but I'm with you because of what that fourth quarter was last night and with the new CBA and being like, who has a big three? Well, I saw a big three last night with what Chet was doing on top of SGAs. Just. It was just so impressive to see them answer everything that Minnesota and, you know, it's super dismissive to just go, well, Ant didn't do anything. Randall didn't do anything. Yeah, but everybody else made every single.
- [41:57]
Brian Windhorst
Minnesota played great. They played so well as a team. Obviously, Randall was not good and Ant was not impactful. I think Ant played a reasonable game, but he was not impactful.
- [42:10]
Ryan Marcillo
What impresses you the most about this Thunder team?
- [42:15]
Brian Windhorst
They have absolutely no ego. Maybe not no ego. There's a little bit there. A little bit. And they have such a growth mindset and it's used against them. People disrespect them all the time because of those factors.
- [42:35]
Ryan Marcillo
Can I jump in there, though? Can I jump? Because you brought this up during the regular season and you would go on TV and you would talk about it. I think I got two segments out of it, so thank you. But it was this. No one fears the Thunder. And it drove me crazy.
- [42:51]
Brian Windhorst
I kept hearing it over and over and over.
- [42:54]
Ryan Marcillo
So is that just like, look, the players who have do this for a living, as we've seen multiple times, are just as capable as us of saying stuff. You're like, what the fuck are you talking about? But this felt so specific. And I don't know, it's just the simple standard of they've never done it before or they're younger or there's more subdued personalities that. There isn't. Even as great as SGA is, it's not this, like, forceful, look at me personality. It just. It felt so misguided and just a very predictable thing of. Of players prioritizing the wrong things to not take this Thunder team seriously.
- [43:33]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I mean, okay, so I. After I said that, I talked to some people in the Thunder organization and they agreed. They were like, we see it too. And like. And it's like, you know, you know, and think of all leagues in all sports. Think of your. Think of your local high school. If you're. If you're local, if, let's say you're. You're. You're. You're league and your high school team and the team with all freshmen and sophomores goes undefeated in the regular season, you're going to respect Them, you know, how often is the best team in the league the youngest team in the league? Yeah, it's unheard of. So. And even if they are the best team in the league, you know how, you know, okay, so maybe they have a player who's like, unbelievable and you instantaneously respect them. Shay's game, like, Shay's game is not. It doesn't blow you away. It's a machine like game. And, you know, the fouls are a whole nother thing. But, you know, Shay doesn't like, I mean, he blows me away. I mean, I watch him and see him, you know, say, I'm getting to the spot right now. There's nothing you can do about it. And deliver over and over and over. Like. And he scores 30 every single night. Like, it's like, you know, I was talking about Cat earlier. You're like, how's Shea doing? Oh, he's got 24 at half. Oh, okay. I remember him hitting two shots. Oh, but he actually hit nine. Oh, that's right. But he doesn't do it in a way. Like, he's not loud like Ant, like, you know, you would say, well, who's a better score ant or Shea? Shea scored hundreds of more points than anti this year, you know, but you would say, oh, my God, look at the way Ant plays. Of course he's a better scorer, but, you know, they're 1 2, so whatever. But their team doesn't demand respect, and so they won't get it until they take it. And they're in the process of taking it and like, you know, you're looking over there, you know, there's a guy sitting behind the bench. I was looking, I looked at him last night. Nicola Topich, who they drafted this last year in a draft day gamble. The reason they, he was available to them, he was. They took him in late. I think it was late lottery. He's the best player in Europe last year and nobody took him because he tore his acl. Serbian point guard. Six, six point guard. I don't know what he's going to be, but like, they got this guy. They got this guy that they're going to just take the wraps off next year that nobody has any idea. Again, you have to be a Thunder fan to know. But there's this other guy. They're going to just debut. Roll him out there. They got the number 15 pick in this draft. Okay, maybe they hit on that pick. Maybe they don't. You know, like they're, you know, they've got, they've got Waves and waves like Lou Dort is first team all NBA defense. And there's people who are saying they're going to trade him because they got Case and Wallace and he might be just as good and. And you know they're going to have to pay their guys. Like this team is completely set up. The only chance that you have of this team not running them off is if these three guys are not stars. If Jalen Williams isn't really good enough to be a number two and Chad Holmgren isn't really good enough to be that big man who can handle all the stud big men across the league. That's your hope because Shea's there, right? So that's what you're going into. You're saying J Dub can't deliver when it really matters. And there's some evidence that that has been true. And Chet, you know he's no victor and there's some evidence that that's true. And then you see moments like last night and you see moments like what happened in the Denver series and you're like, if that's what you're banking on, you got big problems because they may be there and they're not home yet. Need five more wins. You never assume anything but my gosh, what an impressive group of people and what an impressive team and what an impressive looking future. And to me the story of the NBA is I don't want any part of the Western Conference. If I was Yas Tennant Kounmpo, I would not want any part of the Western Conference because I don't want any part of the Oklahoma City Thunder.
- [48:04]
Ryan Marcillo
Interesting segue. I have two more things for you. Do you think had let's play out a scenario that didn't happen. How different do you think Presti's off season is with a title versus if they had lost in game seven to Denver?
- [48:20]
Brian Windhorst
God, it's a great question. So. So to me, the big thing, you know, Jalen Williams and Chat are extension eligible this offseason. And I'm sure that and it not just the Thunder, but any team in the modern days because they're going to have to give Shea a contract extension this summer. They're going to be not have to. They're going to sprint there and hand it to them as fast as they're allowed. That's going to pay them over $70 million a year and they're worried about keeping their team together. And I'm sure there's some thought like can we get away with maybe offering Jalen Williams less than the max. Good luck. Good luck. The guys just made all NBA and just had a 34 point road game in the Western Conference finals. And what can you get Chet to? Can you get Chet in under the max? Because five, three, four years ago, Chet gets the max thinking. Nowadays if you have three max players, you're putting yourself in a tough spot. But you'd question like, do you know, forget about whether you're signing those guys to maxes, Are you keeping those guys together? And I'm sure the Thunder would have, but the pressure would have been building. The pressure would have been building, especially when there's going to be a handful of star level players potentially on the market this year. The pressure would have been building for them to cash that stuff in. And the Thunder are completely prepared for the new world now. They have to stay healthy and they have to have things go their way. And you know, we thought the Thunder were prepared for the, for the future in 2012. You know, I can remember seeing that series end 41 and at the end of game five in Miami, Scott Brooks, the game was in hand for the Heat. The Heat celebration was starting and there was a late timeout and Scott Brooks called his team together and like told them basically to watch what's going on here because there was no doubt that Durant, Westbrook, Serge, Ibaka, Harden, those guys were coming back. This was just going to be one step in the process. Obviously that never happened, so you don't want to ever make an assumption. But they are set up, they are designed to withstand the new aprons and the idea that they're going to cash in. Oh, just trade seven first round picks for player X. I don't think that's 2025 team building. I don't think that's the way you go like one thing and I'm very, very loathe to use this team's name so please don't hold it against me. But when you look at the Chicago bulls in the 90s, the players that Jordan and Pippen won the second three peat with and the first repeat different Krause and Phil Jackson flipped over the entire roster. But they had Jordan and Pippen and Jackson. And in the day, in this day and age, if you're going to want to have good players for a long time, you're going to have, they're going to have to flip this entire roster over. Not because there's any these flaws with these guys, just the aprons are not going to allow it. And so if you want to do something more than Winning one. If you want to have sustained greatness, you're going to have to be able to bring in cheap labor. And the Thunder are completely doing it or completely accept to do it. And they'll probably trade some picks for picks later on to always make sure they have an extra supply. The way that you get good in the teens was to make trades to get star players together. The way you get good now, I think is to keep the environment good for the stars that you have. It's going to be more of an ensemble cast as opposed to, I think Bill referenced it to be almost like movies where you have two stars and then a whole bunch of co starring and widths. That's what I think the Thunder are equipped to do. But your two co stars got to be great. And we're kind of seeing that that might be the case. I'm not ready to go there, but it might be the case.
- [52:27]
Ryan Marcillo
Okay, last thing I know this is the part that you sort of hate and I don't want to put you in a spot, but you had even hinted at it there with looking at this summer, so I guess I'll just ask it this way. Are you preparing yourself for what could be a summer where teams are facing tougher restrictions? They're facing almost this, hey, if they're doing this, then we're going to get into this. I mean there's the tea leaves seem to be telling us, although we've been disappointed so many other times that it could be a really wild summer.
- [52:58]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. So I just want to point out that two years ago when we were here, if I said to you, jrue Holiday is going to be a Celtic, you'd have been like, the hell he is. We talking about like they're, they're, they just play each other in the playoffs. Drew Holiday is not going to be a Celtic. Well, the Dame trade happened and all of a sudden the Celtics stood up in their, in their seat, you know, sat up in their chair and were like, wait a minute. And so that's what I think you're going to see. You're going to see trades beget trades and that's what's going to be unpredictable. Yeah, we can suspect that Giannis may go. Yeah, we can suspect Durant may go. What are the knock on effects of those types of deals? And you have a number of teams out there that so kind of what's happened looking at 30,000ft in the last three years, a whole bunch of teams went all in. A whole bunch of teams. It's how you ended up with all these teams having traded away their drafts. There's all these teams that have invested in the last three years and a lot of them have missed out. Naturally, there's not enough room. You know, when, when six teams, seven teams go all in inherently there's not going to be room at the all in. And so you have some teams that are in tight spots who are looking to pivot and then you have some other teams that are very, very asset rich because of the way all those things played out. And you have this second apron situation that is coming in where nobody wants to be in there. And you have a log jam under the, with the salary cap. The salary cap has grown very little the last few years. The contracts were all signed, they all went up, but the cap kind of grew up incrementally. And so there was like the little this pressure. The contracts go up, but the cap doesn't go up. And there's a log jam now. The new media rights deals are about to come in and so it's going to go boop, boop, boop. And, and we're going to see that logjam clear. And by the time you get to 26, 27, 28, there's going to be a bunch more cap space and a bunch more flexibility. But you have a log jam. And so therefore you have some teams that are a little bit stuck. And so what you have is the perfect storm, the perfect recipe for a lot of movement. It was a relatively, it's a, it's a relatively. It's free agency is not really existent this year. There's only a couple of teams that have space. There's not really high level free agents. There's a couple, but no one's clearing cap space to go after free agents. So it means that the way that you alter your team is through trade. And we have a draft that is interesting. There's a bunch of different players in this draft that teams could fall in love with in the top five six and there's some teams in the top five six that may be willing to do business. So you put all that together and it's just a roiling pot bubbling. And I'm expecting there to be action. I'm careful to say, oh my God, this is going to be. And by the way, I think it'll be at the draft. I think the crazy week for transactions will be at the draft. It'll always be in July, it always happens in July. But the draft week is going to be a crazy week of transactions. I think you know the NBA from the moment the Finals ends, you're going to start, maybe even before the Finals end, you're going to start seeing real action. And I just think it's a perfect storm for it. And I don't know exactly what it's going to be. And again, I know that's what people want. Well, what you know, and my editors want. They're like, well, give us the top seven players who are going to be traded. And I'm like, I didn't know Jrue Holiday was going to be a Celtic until I saw the Dame Lillard trade. And it's also possible that a star player might get traded and that trade will precipitate something else to happen. So I think we're going to see domino effects and it's a little bit unpredictable on how it's going to go. I just expect a lot of action. And so I've unfortunately had to clear my schedule knowing that there's probably going to be a lot of times where there's going to be scrambling for emergency.
- [57:26]
Ryan Marcillo
Podcasts and I'll be listening. You can check out Brian on the Hoop Collective. As we mentioned at the top, I enjoy it greatly and look forward to seeing you on ESPN the rest of the playoffs. Thanks, man.
- [57:37]
Brian Windhorst
Thanks, Ryan. Take it easy.
- [57:42]
Ryan Marcillo
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. How can you grow your business from idea to industry leader? Bring your vision to life with smart business buying tools and technology from Amazon Business. From fast free shipping to in depth buying insights and automated purchase approvals, they deliver everything you need to achieve your goals. It's not easy to stand out from the crowd. Simplify how you stock up to get ahead. Go to amazonbusiness.com for support. This episode is brought to you by Vuori. Vuori isn't just activewear. It's a game changer. Their stuff is next level comfortable. Like, why didn't I get these sooner Comfortable? They're Sunday performance joggers, made with four four way performance stretch fabric, are insanely soft and actually look good outside the gym too. Go to Vuory.com Ryan R Y-E N to get 20% off your first purchase with Viori and enjoy free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. You want details?
- [58:41]
Kyle
Fine. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet.
- [58:45]
Ryan Marcillo
Hey, what's up?
- [58:47]
Brian Windhorst
I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly.
- [58:52]
Kyle
Imagine and best of all, kids, I am liquid so now you know what's possible.
- [58:58]
Ryan Marcillo
Let me tell you what's required. Hello, everyone. Lifeadvicermail.com. we've got Worgon. We've got Kyle. How is everybody? I always like to check in on Tuesdays.
- [59:09]
Kyle
Well, I screwed up my jury duty last week, so I'm doing it again this week, hoping to get it right this time. Luckily, the holiday made it a short week, so we'll check tomorrow and see if. I gotta go. Actually, we'll check tonight. That's how I got screwed up.
- [59:23]
Ryan Marcillo
Is that. Is there a warrant for you or anything? Or we.
- [59:26]
Kyle
I don't know, man. They're so tough in their letters and notifications they give you. I guess it's because it's one of those things that you gotta bully people into doing. But I'm so tired of the red, red lettering telling me I'm could be on the hook for a $1600 fine. So, you know, we'll just try to.
- [59:43]
Ryan Marcillo
Get through it Fair. Oregon Any legal problems for you?
- [59:49]
Worgon
No legal problems. Still got my stone. Just count down the days. Nothing newer than that though.
- [59:57]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, tough. I hate talking about it. One of my recent topics.
- [60:01]
Kyle
You got up and left last time.
- [60:03]
Ryan Marcillo
I know. I don't know, man. But good to know that better days are coming. You know, kind of bumping the program. Yeah. Okay, let's get to some emails here. This is a student teacher basketball dilemma. Need some advice? I can't imagine a better way than you guys. I'm a teacher at a pre. Pre K through 6th grade school. Every year in the last day of school, we have a sixth grade versus teacher basketball game. Okay. All right, so we're talking sixth graders here, age 11, 12, maybe there's a 13 year old that's a little.
- [60:43]
Kyle
Just trying his best.
- [60:44]
Ryan Marcillo
Got some facial hair maybe? Yeah, there's like a birthday thing that kind of made it make sense. So it's really only one year. The whole school attends it. It's a lot of fun. I'm by far the best player, which is not saying much at all in my mind. This is a time to mess around. Not really giving any intensity. I think your head is in the right place, sir. While also still winning. The issue is another teacher takes this way too seriously. I'm talking boxing out 6th graders and way too hard fouls. One time he even went for a charge, which would be the most embarrassing moment of my life to try that. He's also considered the strictest teacher in the school. All this to say the year's this Year's class is pretty talented. I'm also their coach and if I don't try, they have a real chance to win. Part of me wants to not try and let these kids beat this other teacher because it would take him months to recover. What would you do? Look, I'm a very, very competitive person. You know, sometimes we talk about like competitiveness either there's, this becomes this lore, like for you to be the all time competitor, you have to like cheat at monopoly against your grandmother. You know, you'd hear some Jordan story, like, you know, he was 40 years old and he, he beat a 12 year old in a boxing match. He just couldn't take it easy on it. It's like, oh, what, what an awesome man. I think you can be a really competitive person and also understand that you're actually kind of a loser if you're that competitive about this kind of thing. And I'm not saying that to our emailer at all. I'm saying it about the other guy. I mean, clearly the other guy. I do think when you start to realize older people, this is something I've talked about in the past a little bit, so it's a bit of a diatribe, but, but it's such an astonishing revelation in your life when you're a kid and then whether or not your friends are still in your lives. I'm talking about your childhood friends, right? Single digits, maybe not even before high school. Even high school could apply here too, a little bit. And you have this idea of who your friend's parents are and then whether you realize it right away. But I think a lot of us later on are like, oh, so and so sucked. Like he may not have been your favorite, but then you realize like, oh, that guy was just like a total dork. But maybe you're a little too young to understand that. And then the other layer of this is that adults that are just miserable people to, especially kids, that's its own thing, but it's kind of miserable in general. And people can, you know, hey, maybe that guy's moody or you know, maybe he's predisposed to not being super happy anyway for a bunch of different reasons. Like we could get into that, but there's, there's also like a general like understanding of there's just so much shit that hasn't worked out for this person that they've just decided to take it out on everybody else. And there's this just resentment that they have with them for the rest of their lives and become somebody that Nobody would want to hang out with. So it becomes a cycle of them just being the worst. And so if you have somebody who is one, as you said, a really strict teacher, and then hard fouling on top of charges in any kind of.
- [63:54]
Kyle
Game, I mean, that's the craziest part of the season, right?
- [63:58]
Ryan Marcillo
Think of all that is baked into who this person has become for him to pick.
- [64:03]
Kyle
Do you think this guy teaches?
- [64:06]
Worgon
I was going to say social studies.
- [64:07]
Kyle
History is my one seed. If not, it would be math. But, yeah, I think it's got to be 100% history. Or a gym teacher. I don't know. You don't see too many of those anymore. I think probably in the 70s and 80s there were more strict gym teachers. But I was going to say history, probably.
- [64:24]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, we had a. You know, just casting.
- [64:28]
Kyle
Loves talking about it.
- [64:29]
Ryan Marcillo
And it's crazy, too, because history is a gift. You'd think you'd appreciate a life, you know, learning about everything that has.
- [64:38]
Kyle
I loved it.
- [64:38]
Ryan Marcillo
Created this world today. Yeah. But I don't know. It's funny that we both kind of said that instead of math, maybe it's math, but I don't know. Something telling me that this social studies. So really, this comes back down to you. Like, what do you need to do? Let this guy embarrass himself. Right. Let him embarrass himself. And I would say maybe to the other teachers, let's freeze this guy out, Mr. Stevens.
- [65:02]
Kyle
It's great for his legend at the school. Like, he's a real hard. Like a hardo. And. And he's probably got the worst passing percentage of kids in his class. And it's just the way it is. He's probably tenured. And he also has this thing where he completely embarrasses himself at the basketball game every year. It's great to have a legend like that in your school, like a crazy wood shop teacher. It's like, this is great. This makes your school unique. And if you don't like him personally, totally lose the game while he's trying so hard. He'll have trouble with that forever. If you do like him. I don't know. Maybe try a little bit. But throwing the game super low state. Yeah. Is it even throwing the game when you're playing against sixth graders? Or is it using the proper amount of effort? I don't know.
- [65:46]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah. Like if they were high school. Yeah.
- [65:49]
Kyle
And knowing a little meaner.
- [65:51]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah. Knowing that half the kids are probably shitheads anyway. And you're in there going, like, all right, you Know, I'm going to box this guy out. I'm going to set some screens here. Like high school. I think it's all on the table because there's probably some pretty good players and generally, like, the high school team should win if they're going up against teachers. Well, the way it worked. I know that I told that story on Hoosiers, but you weren't. You couldn't be on the team and play in it. So, you know, are you really going to find another. It depends. Like, some high schools are just so stacked and it's so tough how many.
- [66:21]
Kyle
Teachers you got in school, you know?
- [66:22]
Ryan Marcillo
Right. How many guys are actually, like, do you have eight adult teachers run up and down?
- [66:27]
Kyle
Yeah, I don't know.
- [66:29]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, I. I really. That depends on the high school. So I shouldn't just sit here and say, and this isn't even really the question with all of it, but despite your competitive nature, I think you should take great joy in watching this guy embarrass himself the entire time and not be thinking about winning. And if this is your group, if this is your group of sixth graders that you coach, like, the other level of. Of what we're talking about here and the relationships that you have with these guys, like, it would be funny for them. It would be funny for them to win and beat grown ups, because when you're 11, that's really all you're doing here. Like, we actually beat grownups and, you know, it doesn't matter if they play or doesn't play. I. I don't. I don't think you have to, like, take this as a career. L. If this doesn't work out for you. But again, you know, the other part of this is this guy's going to do whatever he wants. He's not going to listen to anybody, and he's a dick.
- [67:23]
Worgon
I would just have such secondhand embarrassment if we're, like, getting back on defense, playing against these children and he's like, slapping the floor. Like, I also coach fifth and sixth graders.
- [67:34]
Kyle
You do know that they're not great. Didn't know that.
- [67:37]
Worgon
All they want to do is take threes. None of them can make a three. Our final scores of the games was like, 25 to 20.
- [67:44]
Ryan Marcillo
Is it coaching? Is it your system? The system?
- [67:47]
Worgon
We won the championship, so. Oh, you tell me.
- [67:50]
Kyle
Averaging 20. All right.
- [67:51]
Worgon
Our foul. Our best player fouled out. The other team wasn't keeping track of the fouls, but I was. So they came over and they're like, how many fouls does he Have. I was like, oh, he still has five, so we're still good, right? They asked like four times. Kept him in the game.
- [68:05]
Ryan Marcillo
Six. Foul league.
- [68:07]
Worgon
Yeah.
- [68:08]
Ryan Marcillo
Physical. It's like the Big East.
- [68:09]
Worgon
Yeah. I mean, they fell on every play. You want. You want to stay in. Yeah. This was wrecked, though. So if this is like a travel fifth, sixth grade, they're probably a good bit better. But still. I don't know how you're throwing this game.
- [68:20]
Kyle
I've been thinking, like, if things shook out differently and Ryan was a tenured Global History teacher, ninth grade, and it's the high school game. I was trying to think what that would look like. You think you'd try to.
- [68:33]
Ryan Marcillo
If it was high school. If it were high school kids.
- [68:36]
Kyle
But let's say you're Global History, so most of your students are ninth grade. Let's just say that.
- [68:41]
Ryan Marcillo
Why am I stuck with why am I doing intro?
- [68:43]
Kyle
Well, it's Global History. I don't know. Would you be more interested in US History? I feel like you're a learned guy. You go to Iceland and other places is the question. How are you handling this big game that's coming up towards the end of school? Right. Spring flings over, dudes are ready for summer. This is like the last big hurrah. It's the big game. People are talking about it. I'm just wondering what kind of approach you're taking.
- [69:09]
Ryan Marcillo
Well, look, if it's high school.
- [69:11]
Kyle
It is high school.
- [69:12]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah. And I've had the disappointing basketball career that I've had. Yeah. I mean, this is my time.
- [69:17]
Kyle
It's my time. All right.
- [69:21]
Ryan Marcillo
I mean, there's. There's a stretch of pickup guys from a Boston thing that I played in that still hate my guts because I was like, okay, I have to make up for it all now here. And it was like, yeah, we're just trying to get a sweat in sixth grade. I'd like to think I'm in a place or that I would understand. You know, I. I do really like kids. Sixth grade, it's. It's totally different. It's. Yeah, you can't you be sitting there? I mean, that's the part where you become. If you win, not. And I don't even mean it as like, the result of the game, but, like, if you're trying that hard against sixth graders, I mean, give me a break.
- [70:02]
Kyle
All right?
- [70:04]
Ryan Marcillo
Global History.
- [70:06]
Kyle
You just strike me as a Global History guy.
- [70:09]
Ryan Marcillo
Don't leave anything out, okay. My wife's brother is a bum. Future mooch in the making. 5, 8, 82 kg. Can leg press 600 pounds for two reps. I gotta be honest with you. Is it worth it to put 600 pounds on the leg press for two reps? That's just a lot of maintenance to have to put all those plates on. I know it probably feels great, but I just, I think there's like a maximum number of plates you should be putting on a leg press where it's just like, okay, like, just do more reps with less weight than having to do all that stuff, even if. But, you know, something to think about. Yeah. But when I couldn't lift anything because everybody can probably put on, you know, I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna load up the old leg press today. I'm just. I'm just asking you how you feel about having to put all the plates back. Like, was it worth it? Because I would. I would say that I think there's a plate number north of it where you're like, this isn't really even worth it anymore. Just something to think about. I have no basketball comp, but I play soccer. Like the Walmart Kevin de Bruyne, is it? De Bruyne?
- [71:15]
Kyle
Across the pond. Right.
- [71:17]
Ryan Marcillo
Well, the kilograms usually tips off in international, just like global. Global accounting. I can pick out a pass from anywhere. Anyway, I know I mess up that guy's name, but I do love him. I do love. Like, the first time I watched that guy play in a match, I was like, holy shit. Like, this guy's just very different. So there's appreciation I had for him, even if I haven't. I haven't had to say his name in such a long time. I think I'm getting it wrong sometimes. I play it where you should be sorry that you didn't make that run. That's on you, not me. Oh, all right, great, Pastor. Now onto the real issue. My wife's younger brother, he's 20, is somehow morphed into the most basic frat bro imaginable. Even though he swore off fraternities before going to college, he's never had a job, doesn't try in school, and generally believes he's too good for any form of effort. I love 20, though.
- [72:05]
Kyle
Keep it in mind. Yeah, 20.
- [72:07]
Ryan Marcillo
These people are just not on my level, so I can't be, you know, entry level job above that. He's cruising towards not graduating on times because surprise, surprise, when you don't work during your summers or trying class, degree doesn't hand itself to you. He's got the ego of a Fortune 500 CEO and the resume of a guy who thinks grinding means watching YouTube until 3am Quick aside. I was having dinner the other night and I was listening to a younger guy in finance talk to an older guy in finance and they were with a big bank because they had mentioned it. And all I could think of, of all the times older people don't want to listen to younger people because you're going to run into this in pretty much any field you're in. I cannot imagine older finance guys that I imagine some listen to this pod that have done pretty well. Just the scar tissue, the resistance that is built up to the 20 something finance guy that talks all the time like that might be the most dismissive dynamic in the workplace today.
- [73:16]
Kyle
That's a great observation.
- [73:18]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah. Because I was just, I was listening and he was, you know, again, I'm not super educated in the world. I was listening to some of the stuff he was saying and I was just watching the older guy and I don't think the older guy talked the whole time and I think he was miserable, but I'm not sure. Okay, back to our guy. He spends his parents money like he's got direct access to the national treasury and his girlfriend's money like she's lucky just to be with him. He talks about wanting a wife who stays at home while he provides for the family. But again, the only thing he's provided so far is bad takes and body spray. He's working towards a generic business degree with less direction than a headless chicken. And every time a lot of analogies here and every time someone tries to steer him toward reality, he either shuts down or acts personally offended that you even suggest he needs to change. So here's the deal. My, my wife and I are on a good path. We're building real career, real careers. And I'm already worried this guy's going to try and attach himself to our success like a barnacle on a cruise ship. How do you help someone like this not become a total failure when they think they've already made it? How do I make sure we're not stuck carrying the freeloading frat Ghost of Christmas Future once we get where we're going? I would tell you, look, he's 20. He's not going to listen to anybody. He's going to have to fail on his own. He's going to have to fail on his own multiple times in a. It's cool that you want to say something to him. So if you want to feel like you want to sit down with the wife and go, hey, maybe I'm just going to try to take the pass at one time with this guy and see what happens. I'd also like if the age gap, if you're still in your 20s, he's. I don't know if he's going to listen to anybody, but these dudes are unreachable. Extra syllable in there. I was unreachable for a little stretch for myself. I knew that I wanted things I didn't know how to go about and get them. I had to, as I've talked about this in the past, I had to get to a point where it was like, the only way that any of this is ever going to work is if you figure out a way to become relentless and do this stuff on your own. And I had to feel like a huge loser before and see a future of being a loser, a future that scared the shit out of me before I was even, like, motivated enough to just go, hey, I gotta turn the ship around here. There wasn't a book. There wasn't again, we didn't have podcasts back then. It wasn't the millions of conversations that my father would have to try to motivate me. It wasn't an older person that I was inspired by. It was none of those things. It was me eventually getting so sick of myself and where I was headed that I had to make some changes. So most people, even though, and I've talked about this a little bit, you go into a bookstore and there's just a brand new table of all these self help books. And it's not so much the message, it's the act of buying the book and then thinking the rest of your life is going to be different. And that's why there's always a market for these books and why so many podcasts have done so well. Because you're like, oh, I'm going to listen to this guy. It's like, okay, are you just listening or are you actually taking anything from it? And so my biggest point or piece of advice to you would be, it's cool you want to say these things. But he's probably still in that unreachable phase of his life. He's delusional. I mean, he thinks that him wanting great things is somehow a compliment to the way he sees himself. And again, sometimes delusion when you're younger can be a really powerful thing. I wouldn't even dismiss people necessarily that are delusional, even if it's annoying to work with delusional. People, there's something that I admire a little bit and about being delusional. There's certain things that I had in my past where I was really delusional. I think back, I'm like, I can't even believe I would think that that was even possible, but thank God that I did. But at 20, if he were 30, I think it's entirely different. But at 20, you're probably going to be wasting your time.
- [77:17]
Kyle
Yeah, it sounds like this dude is disgusted with this guy. And I was originally thinking in my head, I was just like, we all look back at 20 and we're like, what the hell? But then I was like, you know what, I don't know if we all do that. I think probably a good chunk of people do that. My sister, though, is not one of those people that's going to look back at her time at SUNY Brockport and then upstate medical thinking like, man, what the hell was I doing? She's just not. She's just not looking at life that way. She's not even really embarrassed about what she did in high school where as me, it's the complete opposite. I'm wondering if we're dealing with someone here who just has no perspective or self awareness. What they were either like, you have no self awareness that you are a complete, you know, doofus in your 20s, or you just weren't. And you can't even imagine how someone could go through life that way because you were thinking about all this stuff at 20. So I think it's a little bit of like, you know, worlds colliding and try to remember that. The other thing I was thinking is why do you think you're going to be on the hook for taking care? You're saying he's spending his parents money, so obviously they're around, they're supporting him. Why do you think you and your and his sister are going to have to. I'm not sure what you think is going to happen. I think you're overthinking a lot of this. I'm not sure what this comes back on you.
- [78:32]
Ryan Marcillo
That was a big assumption there. I mean, look, he spent. He's just sending us an email, right? So maybe there's different behavior, certain patterns, some of the stuff that he's already worried about because he's around this guy all the time. Right. But you're right, I think there is a chance he is overthinking a little bit. Like if you and your wife become successful and you have your careers that you're going to I mean, you could just also tell him to fuck off.
- [78:55]
Kyle
In your pool house. Yeah, I don't get it. I mean, in 20, 20 is when I even started to get my arms around college. Like I wasn't let alone like what my plan is going forward. It was 20 was like, what's this library all about? And that helped, like, that, that really helped me. And I enjoyed succeeding in college and getting good grades in my papers where before it was just like, you know, when am I done with classes? I think I. This semester's great. I should be done by 2 o' clock and we can like get after it. So really around 20 is when I like started viewing college differently and was actually excited to get feedback on some of the things I was turning in. So I mean, he might be ready to turn that corner soon. So, I don't know, support less than support, more than disgust or whatever you're feeling. But I'm getting a lot of reading disgust from his email. But I don't know, it sounds like you guys just had different operating modes and you can't understand how this guy thinks it's the right way and he won't think that forever.
- [79:52]
Worgon
I don't think 20 is really. I was just, I was such a shithead when I was 20. Just like, didn't care about anything, like.
- [79:59]
Kyle
Didn'T take anything, was screaming at guys wearing soccer jerseys, like, just, just for fun, right?
- [80:03]
Worgon
And it's like, look at Saruti. He'll probably grow out of that. Like, I don't. I think you're overthinking this. The money thing is like, if it does become a thing, I feel like it's 20, 30 years down the line. You don't have to worry about that right now. But he'll, he'll grow out of this.
- [80:17]
Kyle
Yeah, it sounds like you live on.
- [80:18]
Worgon
Your own without like the safety net of college. He'll be fine.
- [80:21]
Kyle
Yeah, it sounds like even, just he probably had a job in college. Just the way he's talking, he's like, he spends his parents money. Because I'm thinking when I was 20, like, I didn't really have a job. You know, we had the whole cigarette thing going on, but that wasn't, you know, wasn't bringing in more than I needed. So, you know, I, I was spending my parents money too. I think a lot of people, but at the same time, a lot of people have, you know, worked two jobs and I'm just like, I can't imagine how you had fun. And they're like, I didn't I was in school, just like the wires were just wired differently. So I think just remember that.
- [80:51]
Ryan Marcillo
Yeah, I think that's a pretty straightforward one because I mean, again, to recap it, it's cool that you care, but you're going to have stuff that's a much bigger priority. Starting your own family, your own professional decisions. You know, you married your wife, not a brother. And for you to sit there and think that, you know, it just becomes. We get a lot of these emails, oh, what should I do? My friend's about to do this. Oh, I have this roommate that does this. This is somebody from home, man. I'm just telling you when you get older you start realizing like, oh, these are real problems. Like, these are, I can't believe I cared about this stuff. Look, that's not like the stuff that you have to worry about when you're 20. It, it's just there's so much of it that's so irrelevant, man. And, and you know, part of it is, is cool to have some concern about your own path and all that kind of stuff. But I, I would, I would tell you that the amount of time it's likely, the amount of time that you're going to spend worrying about this is not time that you're going to think back and go, that was, that was time well used. That'll do it for the pod today. Big shout out to Wargon on the men. Coach Wargon. We're going to dig into that with a stone, folks. Come on.
- [82:21]
Worgon
I'm stoned. Yeah.
- [82:22]
Ryan Marcillo
Playing her, playing her. And then Kyle stepping up and doing a Civic duty because 20 year old Kyle be like, like red envelope. You think that's gonna get me? Come on. Urgent. See you later. Use this as a bookmark.
- [82:39]
Kyle
It's the best court note I ever got. Honestly, it's the best mail I ever got from the court.
- [82:45]
Ryan Marcillo
See, things are getting better. Things, things do improve. And Jonathan Frias were put together on the video side. So Ryan Dr. Solo podcast on YouTube on our Spotify app of course part of ringer spot.
- [82:58]
Worgon
They were gonna name me Michael Jordan. My dad was like, I don't think he can live up to it. So they named me Michael. Jared.
- [83:24]
Ryan Marcillo
Must be 21 and older. Present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050, 4247 support Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.