‘Henry V: The Astonishing Triumph of England's Greatest Warrior King’ With Author Dan Jones

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Henry V: The Astonishing Triumph of England's Greatest Warrior King" with Author Dan Jones

Introduction In this enlightening episode of The Ryen Russillo Podcast by The Ringer, host Ryan Marcillo welcomes Dan Jones, the acclaimed author of Henry V: The Astonishing Triumph of England's Greatest Warrior King. Released on February 18, 2025, the episode delves deep into the life and legacy of England's formidable Warrior King, Henry V. Ryan and Dan explore the intricate tapestry of Henry V's reign, his familial dynamics, political strategies, and military campaigns that cemented his place in history.

Monarchy and Governance in the Late 14th to Early 15th Century The conversation begins with an exploration of the political landscape during Henry V's time. Dan Jones provides a comprehensive overview of the English monarchy, emphasizing its entrenched position as the sole form of governance in England since the Norman Conquest of 1066.

Dan Jones [02:39]: "By the time we get to the late 14th century, there's been a pretty lineal descent of kings... the Norman Conquest is that from that point on, kingship really does apply to the whole of England."

He elucidates how the monarchy, while assisted and sometimes constrained by institutions like Parliament and the Church, remained the undisputed authority. The system of regnal numbering, established post-1066, further solidified the continuity and legitimacy of English kings.

The Rise of Richard II and the Foundations for Henry V Dan Jones traces the lineage leading to Henry V, detailing the turbulent reign of Richard II. Richard II ascended to the throne at the tender age of ten following the deaths of his grandfather, Edward III, and his father, the Black Prince.

Dan Jones [04:37]: "Richard II is the Messiah. Basically, he's going to come and save England."

Raised with grandiose expectations and devoid of a paternal model in kingship, Richard II's reign was marred by crises, including the Peasants' Revolt of 1381 and growing political dissent among the nobility. His inability to effectively govern set the stage for his cousin, Henry Bolingbroke (later Henry IV), to challenge his rule, leading to Richard II's eventual deposition and death.

Henry IV's Reign and the Path to Henry V Upon Richard II's fall, Henry Bolingbroke assumed the throne as Henry IV. Dan Jones discusses the precarious nature of Henry IV's rule, highlighting his reliance on a select group of loyalists and the early responsibilities bestowed upon his sons, particularly Henry, the future Henry V.

Dan Jones [10:01]: "Young Henry is sent off to Wales at the age of about 13 to deal with the rebellion... and... arrested and cuts off... hope all's well."

Henry IV's health deteriorated over seven tumultuous years, during which the young Prince of Wales undertook significant military training. This period was crucial in shaping Henry V's military acumen and leadership qualities.

Henry V: From Prince of Wales to Warrior King Dan Jones paints a vivid picture of Henry V's transformation into a formidable military leader. Highlighting his involvement in suppressing the Welsh rebellion led by Owen Glyndower, Dan underscores Henry's enthusiasm and innate talent for warfare.

Dan Jones [14:13]: "Young Henry... writes back to report what's been going on... 'I couldn't find him anywhere, so I burned it down.'"

At 16, Henry V survived a near-fatal battle injury, further solidifying his resolve and belief in his divine mission.

The Invasion of Normandy and the Siege of Harfleur One of the pivotal moments discussed is Henry V's ambitious campaign to assert England's claim over French territories. Drawing parallels to Shakespeare's depiction in Henry V, Dan Jones delves into the strategic brilliance of Henry's invasion of Normandy in 1415.

Dan Jones [23:18]: "He sets sail with a very, very big army, the biggest that had been taken out of England since his great grandfather's day... invades at the mouth of the River Seine."

The successful siege of Harfleur showcased Henry's tactical prowess, providing a crucial foothold on the French coast and boosting his reputation as an unstoppable military leader.

The Battle of Agincourt: Legend vs. Reality The march from Harfleur to Agincourt, culminating in the legendary battle of 1415, is a focal point of the discussion. Dan Jones dissects the factors that led to the English victory against overwhelming odds, emphasizing Henry V's leadership and the morale of his troops.

Dan Jones [27:48]: "Henry's feel like that's not enough... marches into battle... the battle of Agincourt, which he gambles effectively, absolutely everything on the outcome of one afternoon's fighting."

French Political Instability and Henry V's Strategy Dan Jones provides context on the fragmented state of France during Henry V's campaigns. With King Charles VI plagued by mental illness, France was embroiled in internal strife between factions like the Burgundians and the Armagnacs.

Dan Jones [28:27]: "France is effectively teetering permanently at this point on the brink of civil war... the Armagnacs on the other, and they're constantly at each other's throats."

Leveraging this instability, Henry V adeptly navigated the complex political landscape, aligning with factions that would advance England's territorial ambitions.

Henry V's Character: Discipline and Divine Mission A recurring theme in the discussion is Henry V's unwavering discipline and his belief in a divine mandate.

Dan Jones [38:09]: "He is like, it's not about me. Don't celebrate me... Only recognize that I am a vehicle... the tool, the rod of, of God's will."

This steadfastness made Henry V a compelling and effective leader, allowing him to make decisive moves without the indecision that often plagued other monarchs.

Modern Interpretations and Historical Judgment Dan Jones addresses the challenge of evaluating historical figures like Henry V through a contemporary lens. He cautions against imposing modern moral standards on medieval leaders, emphasizing the contextual norms of the time.

Dan Jones [33:18]: "It's a disease of our time, although it is a disease that is particularly severe... modern world trying to dissect the mindset of somebody from the late 1300s."

He argues that Henry V's actions, while seemingly harsh by today's standards, were in line with the expectations and necessities of his era.

Engaging Historical Narratives Dan Jones shares his approach to writing history, aiming to make it as engaging as modern entertainment without sacrificing accuracy.

Dan Jones [44:12]: "This historical story that wouldn't throw the chronology out of shape, that would just launch you into the story and just keep you there like from Start to finish."

His goal is to blend rigorous historical research with a captivating narrative, allowing readers to immerse themselves fully in the past.

Conclusion The episode concludes with heartfelt gratitude from Ryan Marcillo, praising Dan Jones for his insightful and engaging portrayal of Henry V. Listeners are encouraged to delve into Dan Jones's work to gain a deeper understanding of one of England's most legendary monarchs.

Ryan Marcillo [38:09]: "It's a fun read. It's not textbooky in the way that other books can. In your approach... transferred seamlessly."

Notable Quotes:

1. Dan Jones [02:39]: "By the time we get to the late 14th century, there's been a pretty lineal descent of kings... the Norman Conquest is that from that point on, kingship really does apply to the whole of England."
2. Dan Jones [04:37]: "Richard II is the Messiah. Basically, he's going to come and save England."
3. Dan Jones [10:01]: "Young Henry is sent off to Wales at the age of about 13 to deal with the rebellion..."
4. Dan Jones [14:13]: "Young Henry... writes back to report what's been going on... 'I couldn't find him anywhere, so I burned it down.'"
5. Dan Jones [23:18]: "He sets sail with a very, very big army, the biggest that had been taken out of England since his great grandfather's day... invades at the mouth of the River Seine."
6. Dan Jones [27:48]: "Henry's feel like that's not enough... marches into battle... the battle of Agincourt, which he gambles effectively, absolutely everything on the outcome of one afternoon's fighting."
7. Dan Jones [28:27]: "France is effectively teetering permanently at this point on the brink of civil war... the Armagnacs on the other, and they're constantly at each other's throats."
8. Dan Jones [38:09]: "He is like, it's not about me. Don't celebrate me... Only recognize that I am a vehicle... the tool, the rod of, of God's will."
9. Dan Jones [33:18]: "It's a disease of our time, although it is a disease that is particularly severe... modern world trying to dissect the mindset of somebody from the late 1300s."
10. Dan Jones [44:12]: "This historical story that wouldn't throw the chronology out of shape, that would just launch you into the story and just keep you there like from Start to finish."

Final Thoughts This episode offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Henry V's reign, blending historical facts with insightful analysis. Dan Jones's expertise and narrative prowess provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of a king whose legacy continues to captivate historians and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Dan Jones]

Foreign.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Henry V is the book. Dan Jones is the author. A new book out right now. I enjoyed this one immensely. We'll get into some of the story of who Henry V was and the time that he was alive and everything that goes into it. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. And I hope you read the book too, because we didn't even touch everything that went on. And a little life advice treat for you as well with an author episode. This episode of the Ryan Marcillo Podcast is presented by AT&T. There's a lot in life that should be guaranteed but isn't. Like your favorite team making the playoffs or finding matching socks in the dryer. I hate that. And then there's AT&T. Guarantee it means connectivity you can depend on deals you want and service you deserve or AT&T will make it right. Visit att.com guarantee to learn more. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. So here's how to bring your 2025 wellness a game without busting your budget at Whole Foods Market. You can eat well for less with the yellow low price signs on responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon or no antibiotics ever. Favorites like boneless skinless chicken breasts, ground beef and more. Plus their House Brand 365 by Whole Foods Market has all the good stuff like smoothie ingredients and organic produce at daily low prices. Shop Whole Food Markets in store, online and on Amazon for free pickup and convenient delivery. Terms apply. Save on your wellness routine with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. I've talked about it a few times on the pod, so I'm very excited to do this. Just finished up Henry V. Dan Jones, the author, joins us now and I had some holes in my medieval game Dan, so this was able to fill a bunch of these in the battle between England and France, which again, I knew it was a little dicey, didn't quite realize all of the moving pieces. So thanks for doing this. How are you?

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, my pleasure. No, it's great to talk about it.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Can we start with something where I just wanted to understand kings and the origin and the ruling and the accepted form of government and around the time period. We're talking late 1300s, early 1400s for the premise of where we're at with the book. But your background, your understanding of like how this became the way during these centuries that it was the accepted form of government leadership.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, well, look, I mean the Story of, of Henry V takes place across the late 14th, early 15th century. And by that point nobody has really known in England any other form of government than a monarchy. A monarchy sort of limited and some senses assisted, in some senses resisted by institutions, parliament, councils of nobles and the church and so on. But, but monarchy is like age old at this point. I mean, you think about the regnal numbers of English kings, we're talking about Henry V, Richard ii, Henry iv. These date back to a very specific time and that's the Norman conquest of 1066 when William, Duke of Normandy, William the Bastard, as he became known, William the Conqueror, came, invaded England. And from that point, Kings are numbered 1, 2, 3, according to the frequency of that name in the succession. There had been kings long before that as well. The great challenge prior to the Norman Conquest had been to impose a single kingship on the whole of England. The great break of the Norman Conquest is that from that point on, kingship really does apply to the whole of England. There'd been these phases where kings, Alfred the Great, had tried to hold the whole of England, but then the thing had splintered. You'd had invasions from Denmark and Scandinavia. It's an age old system by this point, but really the moment everyone's numbering things from is 1066.

[Ryan Marcillo]

So the story begins as a young Henry V is basically learning about his family, their place in the world through Richard ii. Can you give us kind of the family tree of Richard ii, Henry iv, which obviously Henry v's father and kind of Richard's entire deal and his approach to being the ruling king. Right.

[Dan Jones]

I mean, so the basic principles, we're talking about a dynasty that today we call the Plantagenet dynasty. They had been in power in England since 1154, Henry II and there had been a sort of England being part of an empire, for want of a better words, for want of a better word, which included parts of France as well, and claims over Ireland and Scotland and such. By the time we get to the late 14th century, there's been a pretty lineal descent of kings. Actually in the 14th century, a great king, Edward III, I mean great by the acknowledgment of the people of his day and thereafter rules England, wins lots of victories in the wars against France, has a lot of children. Edward III dies after a 50 year reign in 1377 and is succeeded by his grandson, Richard II. Richard II is the eldest son of the eldest son of Edward III. The, the missing link, therefore, is, is Richard II's father, known to history as The Black Prince, great warrior, but died before, before Edward III. So in 1376, 1377, both Edward III, his son, the Black Prince, die and they leave as king, therefore a young boy for Richard II, who's 10 years old at the time that he inherits the throne. 10 years old is not a great time to become a king. In some ways it's much worse than any other age to become a king because you're entering the cusp of adolescence. There will be times in the Middle Ages where in many kingdoms where inheritance falls on a baby completely incapable of even understanding job, let alone performing it. And oftentimes that's okay because you have ruling councils who rule in the name of that child. The child won't get involved. Having a boy of 10 upwards to 18 on the throne is a real problem because they have some understanding, some political will, but they're also constrained by the law not to be able to fully exercise their office. So it's a very awkward period. Richard II also grows up knowing no example of kingship because he's only 10 when his grandfather dies. Because he never sees his father rule, he has no model for what kingship looks like. He's told in 1377 when he comes to the throne, he's the Messiah. Basically, he's going to come and save England. The last years of his grandfather Edward III's reign have been years of corruption, of decay, of losses in the war of Edward the King, then sliding into age related dementia, senility. So Richard's told that he's going to save the kingdom. Well, that's also a dangerous thing to tell a child. You don't really want to tell a child that they're the Messiah. That's Parenting 101 as well as Politics 101. But he grows up sort of imbued with this sense and is then doubly outraged at all moments in his reign thereafter when he's thwarted or stymied because he's like, I thought I was the Messiah, I thought I was the God given savior of this country and now you're telling me I can't do X. Okay, so Richard ii, despite this, grows up. His reign consists of a number of crises. There's a populist rebellion in 1381 known as the Peasants Revolt. There is a kind of a phase of political resistance of various lords in his realm trying to corral, constrain him, force him to rule properly. That's in the late 1380s. And by the time we get to the late 1390s, Richard has proven himself time and time again to be a complete failure as a king. He's got a cousin. His first cousin is called Henry Bolingbroke. Henry is also a grandson of the great King Edward III via his father called John of Gaunt. And they're approximately the same age. They grew up parallel lives, but their characters are very different and their paths through life are very different. But there comes a crisis in 1397, 8, 9, where Richard the King accuses his cousin Henry Bolingbroke of treachery, treason, effectively forces him to fight a duel against another lord, banishes him from the kingdom and takes away all his lands. That provokes Henry Bolingbroke the cousin, into a rebellion, gathers some forces in France, comes back and deposes Richard ii. By now the hero of our story, a second Henry to be Henry V has been born. And so his experience as a young child is also not seeing functional kingship. It's seeing his cousin, first cousin once removed, Richard ii, making a complete balls up of being king. And it's seeing his father struggling to come to terms with that and then rebelling. So cut to 1400. Richard's been kicked off the throne and murdered. Henry Bolingbroke is King Henry iv and his eldest son to be king. Henry V is now the next in line to the throne. It's much easier if I draw you a family tree on paper. I realize, like, speaking this out loud, but that's the nuts and bolts of it.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah. But I think it's important because when I'm reading the Richard II stuff, I mean, this really is. If people are fans of Game of Thrones, if you're fans of Braveheart, you can see how all of these stories are inspired with all these different characters. Because when you think of Richard ii, you think of Joffrey, where you're like, okay, it's too much too soon. And to your point, being told you're the Messiah and you're gonna. It's like it had really very little to do with ruling other than it was, well, I'm king and I'm just gonna start taking everybody out that is questioning me. As you had this, like, you know, this group of, of people that were either supposed to be confidants that quickly had turned on him. And then, you know, Henry sees his father banished and he is essentially like, with Richard ii. And it's this odd dynamic that you do a really good job at painting the picture. Like, at least Richard II is decent to Henry V. He's a young boy. Despite the Fact that he's banishing his father with one of his other brothers. So I think politically there's stuff that Henry grows up exposed to that really lays a foundation of like what kind of, what kind of ruling government that, that he wants. But before any of that stuff happens, before he's actually Henry V, his father's king and it, it's unbelievable what he is tasked with from just a military standpoint at his age. So can we get into, you know, his, let's make sure we get into his injury. But what his father is asking him to oversee as they're facing rebellion basically in all directions.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah. So Henry IV, Henry Bolingbroke becomes Henry IV in, in 1399, 1400, this revolution and is then a very difficult situation as any usurper king always is. And you take the throne, you're automatically reliant on generally a small group of people who've helped you do it to expect undue rewards, king makers. And it's always a difficult situation. So Henry IV becomes king. He's got four sons, Henry, Thomas, John and Humphrey. And the eldest, three of those he starts deploying quite quickly as his kind of lieutenants because the theory is he might not be able to trust many people in this country he's taken over, but he's going to be able to trust his family. These boys are also teenagers and they're given a lot of responsibility as a means of military and political training. Henry to be Henry V the eldest is made Prince of Wales. That's still typically the title that's given to the, the male heir to the now British crown. And he's sent off to Wales at the age of about 13 to deal with the rebellion of a Welsh kind of firebrand rabble rouser known as Owain Glyndore or Owen Glyndower in Shakespeare. Glyndur has claimed that he is the native rightful Prince of Wales and he's raised the whole of that principality in rebellion against English rule. He's in contact with France, who are England's foreign enemies. He's in contact with would be rebels within the kingdom of England, Scotland. So young Henry is sent to cut his teeth as a military commander with mentors with people to help him who are experienced soldiers. But he's got to learn on the job and fortunately he takes to this task with a high degree of enthusiasm. There's a great letter which I quote in the book, which he writes at about the age of 15 to his father. Young Henry is in Wales. Henry IV, the king is in London. And young Henry, 15 years old, writes back to report what's been going on with einb. And it's in French and I'll paraphrase it into English, he says, so, dear dad, hope all's well. You sent me here to deal with this. Well, the guy's been putting it around that he wants a fight. So I went out looking for him to have this fight he says he wants. I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went round his house he wasn't in, so I burned it down. And then I went round his other house and he wasn't there either, but one of his friends was and begged me to spare his life and offered me all his money. So I cut his head off. Hope all's well. Praise be to God. Lots of love, Henry. It's astonishing. And I mean, yeah, of course I'm paraphrasing, but I'm not really paraphrasing that much. I mean, his letter just like, bursts with kind of youthful bravado, with brio, with just genuine love and enthusiasm for the business of warfare. So here, the Lancastrian family, as we call Henry IV and his kids, have, like, lucked out, effectively, because this boy, to be Henry V, absolutely loves war. He really, really takes to it and he's got. He's just got an innate taste for it. And in the early 15th century, that's a good thing in your. In your ruler. It's not necessarily the total skill set we always want today, but then it's. This is good. It's good news.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah. And the campaigns continue and it appears that he and his father have a really great relationship. And then, right as his father starts to deal with more and more health issues, and there's this period for Henry V where it's like, well, I'm not the king, but I feel like I'm taking on the responsibilities. And, you know, everybody's worried about Henry IV dying, then he doesn't. Then they think he is there. There's this really fragile window on the timeline that I think you do a good job of including this story, because he has brothers. He has brothers that are capable, although different skills, where it looks like it might even be tenuous that he could ever be king, although it'd been accepted for years that ultimately he would be.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, look, he has this really, really intense on the job training as Prince of Wales, and it serves him in very good stead, you know, from age 13 through 18, 19, 20, he learns the ropes. And you mentioned his injury, we should say, in 14 oh, three, when he's 16, he fights this battle. He takes an arrow in the face, the arrowhead gets lodged in the back of his skull, he has to have major surgery to remove it. He's incredibly lucky to survive. But he's like, he's hardened, he's toughened in war. He then, you know, you rightly say his father becomes very ill. From 1406 onwards. Henry IV is suffering from a series of different interconnected maladies and his health is very poor, but he takes a long time, seven years effectively, to die. So you get to this point, 1410, 11, 12, where Henry to be Henry V. Henry, Prince of Wales, is really doing the job of king. He's held it down militarily. He's effectively president of his father's council. He's taking a lot of the major decisions with regard to domestic and foreign policy, but he's not the king. And he makes a serious error by basically asking his father to abdicate. And he's got a lot of support in making this request, but it is a very stupid thing to do because the one lesson of his father's reign is it is so difficult to rule as king if you haven't inherited the throne fair and square, and there should be no ambiguity about that. And Henry kind of, Henry Fifth, kind of Mrs. This, tries to take the throne before his time and he's slapped down very, very heavily and very, very hard by his father, who leads him to believe that he's made such a grievous error that he's now he may have forfeited his right to become king. And Henry IV starts like, shifting his attention, his favor towards his second son, Thomas, makes him Duke of Clarence Thomas, and I don't think he's totally serious, but he lets Henry believe he's totally serious and it's a valuable lesson. 14:13, Henry IV eventually dies in the Jerusalem Chamber in the palace of Westminster. And at that point it's clear that this was never, it was never a serious proposition that Thomas was going to, the second son, was going to take a throne. Henry, Prince of Wales, becomes Henry V. And from that point on, things start to get a bit easier, because as his aging father had rightly perceived, it was absolutely vital that Prince Henry became King Henry with an orderly transition of power, with a legitimate death of one king, proclamation of his eldest son, coronation, these political norms that have been broken by the revolution of 1399-1400 had to be restored and normality in politics had to be resumed. Feeling that many people in the World hanker for today, I'm sure. But they managed to pull it off. And so from 1413 onwards, English politics starts to sort of pick up a little bit and the fortunes of the country start to revive.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I say this every time I read anything, where I go, well, that sounds familiar. I think one of my favorite underlying tones was that because Henry IV had been rejected, whether you had claims in Scotland, claims in Wales, we'll get to the French stuff here in a second, that there is this unbelievable belief in many corners of this world that Richard II is still alive and that people are expecting that he will come back, whether he's going to take it from Henry IV or. Or his son, Henry V, that there is support out there in the wilds that Richard II has never been dead and that he has gathered more support and that it's all going to come. And people are just like, hey, we marched a dead body around town. Like, it's. It's been over and it's been over for a long time. But again, when people want to believe something, they will believe it. And the legend seemed to continue for years in the background.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, I mean, and the lesson there is that politics has always been about, you know, what is the phrase we use today? Controlling the narrative. Even when the narrative, if you start to unpick it, is completely preposterous. What you have in. In the 14th century is the, you know, Richard II has been murdered. They don't say, he's been murdered, he's died. They parade, as you said, they parade his body around the place. Hey, look, he's dead. Hey, look, he's dead. Here's the dead guy, he's dead. But within months, people are. They don't want to. They don't want to hear that. And so rumors of Richard II's survival persist for well into Henry V's reign. I mean, decades after. After he's been buried once King's Langley, the start of Henry V's reign, he has him reburied in the tomb Richard had designed for himself, where he still lies today in Westminster Abbey. And even still, years after that, there are still these kind of whispers that actually the real Richard II was kind of spirited away, that his body was swapped with somebody else's, that he'll be back. It's not really about Richard himself. It's about the desire for an alternative. And if you proceed from that desire, people are willing to warp their. Like, suspend their disbelief, suspend their common sense, suspend their understanding of how the world physically and biologically works. But that's politics. And you know, we don't need to dig into specific examples, but you see it generation after generation, year after year, a narrative can take hold, which is a big lie. But if people are willing to believe the big lie and and, and act as if it were true, then it may as well be true.

[Ryan Marcillo]

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[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Dan Jones]

Henry V's great grandfather, Edward iii, who we mentioned earlier in this conversation, had staked a claim, a dynastic claim in the year 1337 through 1340 that he was not only the rightful king of England, but also the rightful king of France. For whatever territorial disputes had existed before that point between English kings and French kings, no one had ever said they were the rightful king of both realms. But Edward III does, and he does it because he's descended through his mother and father from both royal lines. That claim is rebuffed and rejected. Edward III begins the war we call the Hundred Years War. The notional claim of the English during this war is they want the crown of France. Now there's a big question as to whether Edward III actually believes that this is a realistic prospect. He gets relatively close actually in 1360, but never takes the crown and then bargains it away for a big grant of land within what we now think of as the kingdom of France, which gives him profit, which gives him trading advantages, which gives him control of a big stretch of the French coast, and so on and so forth. That claim, which although Edwards does bargain away in 1360, seems to persist in, in the minds of at least some of the English who believe that it should never have been bargained away, who believe that. Actually, no, you know what? It is our blood right to be kings of both realms. And Henry V certainly buys into it. He comes to the throne as a 26 year old guy with this burning sense of injustice. He is like, I should be the King of France as well as the King of England. That's not to say that he doesn't see there are other parts to this claim. It's not just that he thinks it's his right to have that crown and that in and of itself is a political goal. He also sees that there are great economic advantages to having cause to make war on France, that there are great sort of territorial concessions he can make if he goes to war with France. But he does, I think he really does believe in a way that no one before him has wholeheartedly believed that he should be the King of France. And he's going to do anything within his power to stake that claim. So in 1415, when he's been king for just over two years, he sets sail with a very, very big army, the biggest that had been taken out of England since his great grandfather's day, to invade Normandy, so the duchy in northern France. And he invades at the mouth of the River Seine, a town called Harfleur. And if anyone listening knows their Shakespeare, they'll be familiar with the siege of Harfleur. Cannon are being deployed against the walls of this coastal town. Once more into the breach, dear friends. The great soliloquy comes from that part of the play. Henry spends a long time besieging this city and then successfully takes it. And that is a great victory. It's the greatest victory in 1415 that the English had won against the French since 1347, sort of 1356, let's say, but it was the greatest town they'd won since 1347 when they've taken Calais and it wins them this really, really useful like bridgehead on the French coast. But Henry's feel like that's not enough. And you start, you see his psychology. The moment of that he wins the siege Art Fleur. It's late in the year 1415. It's too late to besiege any other cities. His men are very sick. There's a lot of dysentery and other diseases whipping around the camp. Lots of his friends have died of these diseases. They're running out of food. Everything says one off Leh, secure it, go home, regroup. Come again. But Henry doesn't do that. He decides that he wants more. He wants to show that he is the coming man and he should be the one to take the crown of France. And so he sets off on this there what becomes an incredibly famous march. It's supposed to last a week, it ends up lasting several weeks. And he. It ends with him being hunted down by the French and forced to fight a battle. 25th of October 1415, the battle of Agincourt, which he gambles effectively, absolutely everything on the outcome of one afternoon's fighting.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah, and Agincourt is basically where the, the legend. I mean, I know he's already king, I know he's already got the wins, but it's very clear that that increases the legend and increases support back home and is probably a massive motivating factor on what he expects upon his return. I also think it's important too, because there's a couple things I still want to get to understanding how France is not weak, but just susceptible to something like this. Whether it's Charles V6, whether it's their factions, what is going on in France at this time, which makes them feel. Feel like they are prime to be targeted.

[Dan Jones]

Well, France is effectively teetering permanently at this point on the brink of civil war. Because you mentioned Charles VI, and rightly so. Charles VI, King of France in, in the year 1392. So a long time before Henry comes to power himself, Charles VI has a very severe mental breakdown. And thereafter he is in and out of lucidity for the rest of his reign. He's periodically completely insane, either catatonic or running around madly thinking he's on fire, thinking he's made of glass, doesn't recognize anybody, sort of running around his palace is naked, smeared in his own feces. You know, he's like, he's. The guy's gone. Not great, not great. But the trouble he'll come in and out of these madnesses and that's, you know, if the guy was just completely gone and never coming back, that's one thing you could sort of try and rule around him, but he comes in and out of madness. That's a big problem. It's a problem that England will much later suffer with Henry VI as well. I'm sure we can come to that. So Charles VI in France is teaching on the brink of insanity from 1392 onwards. And factions emerge in the court, led by various of his relatives. The. The. The most important of whom is a guy called Jean St. John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy, who is constantly a disruptive force in French politics, trying to pursue his own ends, trying to make himself the effective master of the French state. Resisted heavily by another faction, they come to be known as the Armagnacs. So you have this French civil war with the Burgundians, followers of John the Fearless on the one hand and the Armagnacs on the other, and they're constantly at each other's throats. So this provides a. A perfect opportunity, if you like, for the English to try and insert themselves as a third party in the civil war for their own advantage. Throughout Henry IV's reign, there's always this question of, do you side with the Burgundians? Do you side with the Armanacs? They go back and forth. Henry V always prefers the Burgundians. He teams up with John the Fearless periodically once he becomes king, but his overriding goal is always to leverage this French civil war to get as much out of it for the English as possible. So at all moments, he's trying to play the two sides off against one another for his own military, political, territorial advantage.

[Ryan Marcillo]

The John the Fearless stuff is awesome because of the Duke Orleans. And, you know, there's just so many different characters throughout all of this. And I could just keep going on and on about the timeline, which, you know, I don't want to do the entire book because I want people to read this book and I want people to buy this book. So there's. There's more to it. But in your summary, and I always, like, whenever I'm going through history. Right. You probably do the same. That would hope you would. My guess is you do. But you're like, okay, this person wrote this book about this subject, so that means they probably really like this subject. Like when I got done with Andrew Roberts Napoleon book, where I've seen Andrew's debates with. With other people are like, I can't believe you wrote this book about Napoleon. I appreciated the full scope of, like, Napoleon the person and all of the things that he was arguing that Napoleon wasn't just this Military mastermind. Like think about him from an infrastructure standpoint. All these different things. Now again, his argument, Andrew's was I'm an Englishman, so like, why, why would I write this? But what I really liked about what you did, especially towards the end, and I think we're just too aligned without ever, ever meeting. But there's been so many suggestions about Henry V, like who he was. Obviously Shakespeare had a lot of influence on that and I would say negatively so. And it's something where I'm like, look, there wasn't much to do, so they invaded each other. It's kind of what they did. And you know, to be calling him a warmonger, okay, fine. But like that's all he had known. That's all these two countries had known. So whether it was France battling England or vice versa, or England trying to shut down all these rebellions on the outskirts of the island, I just, I don't understand people in like the modern world trying to dissect the mindset of somebody from the late 1300s, early 1400s. You even mentioned someone that's a scholar today being critical of Henry V for being a misogynist. And I went, no shit?

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Marcillo]

So, you know, as you go through the summary of all of this, clearly you like the guy. I guess I can't understand people that I know, they're even smarter than me trying to go back and re engineer what was right and what was wrong during the medieval ages.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, it's, it's not a disease of our time, although it is a disease that is particularly severe, severe in our time of casting moral judgments over past ages which happen to work to a completely different standard of behavior. You mentioned Andrew Roberts. Andrew. Andrew is a brilliant scholar. I like him a lot. He's a great, great man and a brilliant historian. The book of his, I suppose that springs to mind as you're speaking is not just his Napoleon but his Churchill as well. And Andrew is a great fan of Churchill and read a very favorable biography to Churchill, an excellent biography which attracted a degree of criticism because it's fashionable now to say of Churchill he was a warmonger, he was a racist, he was an imperialist. He was really saying he's just a sort of mildly old fashioned guy in his own day. To call Henry V a warmonger is simply to say that he was a medieval king. Those medieval kings who shied away from pursuing warfare would like Richard II were very, very, very seldom successful. Warfare was per Clausewitz politics pursued by other means. I mean, in fact in the Middle Ages it was one of the principal means of politics. Warfare was just part of the job. You know, you see the seal, the great seal of the kings apply to authenticate documents in this age. Well, what does it have? It has the king as judge on one side and as warrior on the other. Those are just the basic elements of the job. That doesn't mean that the purpose of kingship was just looking around for somebody to fight. But it was inevitable in this age that you would have to be a military ruler. And that was imbued through the entire class, the cast of aristocrats who by definition ruled the country, that chivalry was a knightly code of behavior and chivalry informed the way you were supposed to behave. So these are just basic political norms. And it is naive, bordering on crazy for historians to look back and say, well, I don't know why they didn't seem to be more in tune with 21st century mores. The hardest thing for historians today to remember oftentimes is that we are the weird ones. Compared to most of human history, we are the weird ones to have lived in a world. I was born in 1981, my parents were born in 52. So we're all post war, the post war generation. To have lived in this world that has been largely, not totally obviously, but largely free of major conflicts which have ravaged Western Europe. So I'm putting aside the current Ukraine conflict in that to have grown up in an age for four generations now where that hasn't happened is bizarre. It's historically almost totally unprecedented. And it means that we are often, can often be initially very baffled when we look at periods of European history where it's just war after war after war. Well, that was normal. That has been the history of certainly Western Europe forever. So it's like it's, it's not a great line to pursue Henry V on. Now they're also the, you know, you mentioned the misogyny. Oh, come on. This is just the Middle Ages. It's baked into everything. He's a man of his time. Henry V was not necessarily the typical man of his time. Like he, he skewed very. He was unusually competent at warfare and unusually willing to pursue a fight if he saw one. He was unusually self disciplined and uninterested in women, pretty much with the exception of his wife, Catherine de Valois, whom he married pretty much political duty. He was unusually unapproachable to many of his, the people around him in terms of this sort of severe public demeanor. He was Not a good time party king like his grandfather Edward iii, who combined warrior and party goer quite, quite effectively. But he was by no means like a weird outlier in his own society. He was just sort of a particular kind of guy within the norms of the world he lived.

[Ryan Marcillo]

He felt like somebody that was destined to be king, that actually executed his calling in a way that so many others who inherited it had no business having the position. I mean, that's at least the way I, when I got through the book, that's kind of the thing I landed on where it's like he actually was meant to do this and succeeded.

[Dan Jones]

Well, I think that he would have said the same thing himself, you know, the meant to do it thing. And a lot of it stems back to this moment when he is 16 years old and is almost killed at the Battle of Shrewsbury with that arrow in the face. I think he comes out of that with. And again, this very obvious parallel with modern politics, American politics. He comes out of that, that brush with death really, really convinced that he is God wants him to succeed. God wants him to do this. And he says it explicitly at later times in his life. You know, after the Battle of Agincourt, the Duke of Orleans has been captured, very dejected about that fact. Young man Henry sort of puts his arm around his shoulder as he's being led off to a quarter of a century of captivity in England and says to him, look, it's nothing personal. Henry says, you know, I am just God's scourge. I'm just a vessel for God's work. God wants this to happen. You French are decadent. He sent me to punish you. You've got to understand this. And when there are public triumphs to celebrate Henry's victories, it's the same thing. He's like, it's not about me. Don't celebrate me. Only recognize that I am a vehicle, a vessel, the tool, the rod of, of God's will. And it's being executed through me. Now, that is an unusually. If you come across somebody with that psychology, they tend to be very hard to put off their trap. God wants me to do it. It's a fixity, it's a certainty with which he operates. And it makes, I think for Henry, it makes a lot of his decision, political decision making, really easy because there's not much vacillation. There's like, I know what I'm here to do and I'm doing so that's, that's the, that, yeah, it's. But it is very unusual because Human beings, which is what we're talking about, are very often conflicted and flawed and pulled in many directions by many different motivations. And it's rare to find somebody possessed of such extraordinary discipline. Discipline is one of the things that humans struggle most with. It's the basis of the Jocko Willing podcast. I mean, you know, like, we all really struggle to do the thing, but Henry is a guy who does the thing.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I can see in the second tour through France, some of the lieutenants coming to Henry V and saying, you know, sir, like Jocko, he would go, good, good.

[Dan Jones]

Oh, yeah. So there's oftentimes I found, like, he does sound a lot like Jocko. There's two occasions spring to mind. There are lots of different reports of what Henry says before the battle of Agincourt to rouse his troops. Probably he says a bunch of different things because you can't address the whole army in one go. Then we have Shakespeare. You know, the great Saint Crispin's Day speech, The one that sounds most like Henry, if you read the other things that he dictated his own words is an account from a London chronicle which says all he said before the battle of Agincourt was, fellers, let go. There's three words. That's the motivational speech. And then there's another occasion, quite similar, actually. It's 1419 after the siege of Rouen. A horrible, horrible winter siege which has gone for six months. Henry has starved the inhabitants of Rouen into submission. There have been occasions where the citizens of Rouen have chucked out useless mouths, quote, unquote, women, children, the elderly, people who can't fight but are consuming food, food and resources, throwing them out of the city. But the English won't allow them through the siege line. So they're. They're starving in the ditch, the moat, let's say, the dry ditch that surrounds the city of Rouen. And when the citizens of Rouen decide that they're going to capitulate, they're going to give up. They send messengers to Henry to negotiate peace. And top of their list of sort of immediate things they want at this peace deal is succor is helping for the starving people in the ditch around Rouen. They said, first, before we do anything else, please, like humanitarian aid, get some help to these poor people starving in the ditch. And Henry just looks at them fellas who put them there. This is on you. Don't come to me with your whiny. So he has this, like this cast iron determination. And sometimes it's, you know, there's no sugar cutting. It's absolutely brutal. But he's, he's always coming back to discipline, focus, purpose, execute on what you say you're going to do.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I love what you did with azincorp because you took us through all the different stories, the legends. And I'm so glad you told that part of it because it was probably my favorite part of the book because I was sitting where I was reading at the time and when I was just basically updated to fellas, let's go. Yeah, completely outnumbered, surrounded. And I put the book down and I actually like started kind of laughing and just having a moment where you're enjoying because at that point I developed a relationship with the character, you know, and it is always kind of funny too when the main character becomes. I'm like, wait, am I actually rooting for the English now? Because I feel like there's been other times I've been rooting for the French, depending on who wrote the book, whatever. But like I said, there's so much more in this for the people that enjoyed, you know, your time. I know I did. Thanks for getting back to us so soon and a massive congratulations on a terrific piece here. And, and I have to emphasize this too. It's. It's a fun read. It's. It's not textbooky in the way that other books can. In your approach, I'll even admit too, like. And I'll leave it for people that read it. When you mentioned kind of the approach and how you were going to explain it and I was like, oh, what's he going to try to do here? And then within pages it was just, we're, you're just flowing. And it totally works because instead of assumptions about what could have been happening, you have a more open minded, kind of like present tense but to that day approach to it, which I, which worked. Which ended up working despite it scared me a little bit. Unlike the first couple of pages, I.

[Dan Jones]

Didn'T tell my editors I was doing it until I just handed the book in. And because I knew they'd say don't approach the book in this particular way. It's going to fit. I just had this deep instinct that this was the way to tell the story and that there was a way to. I mean, Henry is a cold character and he can be hard to create empathy with. But I just had this sense I'd come up with a way of telling this historical story that wouldn't throw the chronology out of shape, that would just keep, but would launch you into the story and just keep you there like from Start to finish. And listen, this was like 15 book I've written. And this is for me, like a lot of the business of history communication, whether it's, you know, podcasts like this or on television or whatever it might be on the page is let's take this material from the past, which is so full of, not of entertainment but also of lessons that we can, we can sort of meditate on the world today and let's make it feel as exciting as the best HBO kind of series or, or Netflix show or whatever it is. That's my kind of calling. And it gives me great satisfaction not only to do it, but to hear, you know, to hear readers like yourself appreciating it. So thank you for that, of course.

[Ryan Marcillo]

And thank you for your time. And hopefully we do this again because I'm going to dig back into the catalog. All right. So thanks, man. Enjoy your time here in the States.

[Dan Jones]

Thank you.

[Steve]

You want details?

[Dan Jones]

Fine.

[Kyle]

I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet.

[Ryan Marcillo]

What's up?

[Steve]

I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork.

[Dan Jones]

I have every toy you can possibly imagine.

[Kyle]

And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Let me tell you what's required life advice. Today we've got Kyle and Cerutty. The email address lifeadvicermail.com we have a Friday feedback that you can go back and listen to on Friday if you want. And a little different schedule this week with the games being off and then shifting to the Tuesday, Thursday. So anyway, thanks for joining us today. Let's see, what do we want to do here? We did have a feedback one here for Cerutty that I think is important. I just wanted to back up Ceruti's answer the other week to the recent tanning life advice with high school kids in the millennial age range. This was a nationwide phenomenon. I'm 32, grew up in metro Detroit. Not an exaggeration to say that every single, every single popular quotes kid at my high school regularly went tanning and had the monthly memberships. It was not just a Jersey thing.

[Steve]

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I don't think it was ridiculous. I had somebody hit me up actually. Anthony de worked at the ringer was like when he went to Syracuse. Tommy DeVito was in the tanning salon all the time, which I don't think is terribly surprising. But although he's a Jersey guy, so maybe that doesn't really help my story.

[Kyle]

But I haven't been in many tanning salons. But my wife wanted to do one before the wedding because she wanted to really pop in that dress. And I went with her. Didn't have much else to do while we were getting ready and stuff. And it was just like the guy was exactly to a tee. The guy you would expect. Like a real shade of orange. Really passionate about it. I just wonder if like either it's the owners or like the front man of. Of those places. Are they all like that? I really don't have a really. I don't have a real frame of reference, but I was just like, I can't believe this is the guy who's taking care of us.

[Dan Jones]

It's like, was he.

[Kyle]

What was so over the top?

[Steve]

Because I feel like it's either like Euro kind of looking guy or it's like board shorts and a puka shell necklace.

[Kyle]

No, dude, it was so New York. You could tell he was from downstate. I mean, good shape, old, little leathery, but tht going on. Probably late 60s maybe. Maybe looks a little older than he is. He probably looked around 70. Real thick accent, but I mean, just like to a T the look you'd expect. And I was just like, this is it. Can't. This can't just be an outlier. Is this really how they are? So, I don't know.

[Steve]

You didn't tan though yourself. You just. I did not there.

[Ryan Marcillo]

No.

[Kyle]

No.

[Steve]

Did she try to get you to.

[Kyle]

She didn't tan. She did the spray thing. And it's like this whole weird shower. And he's like, it was really scary just because he was like, listen, if you don't listen to. If you don't listen to me. Exactly. This is going to be terrible. I tell you tell these people all the time, don't do this. When you put the lotion on, go down like towards your finger. I'm like, what? This is so much to remember. And she got in this weird shower thing for like, you know, 90 seconds or something. And just. I don't know, it was like, it's. It was very stressful the way he was explaining it. It's like if you. If you move an inch, this could all get fucked up.

[Dan Jones]

I see it all the time.

[Steve]

You can't. You can't work out afterwards. Like, if you cry just so. I mean, who knows why that would happen? But if you cry afterwards, like, there'll just be streaks. Like, you really can't do anything after you get the spray tan thing.

[Kyle]

It scared the shit out of me. I wasn't even the one in there because I'm Sure.

[Steve]

He's seen some horror stories to people coming in being like, wow. I'm like, I look like, you know, a zebra here because of some thing that I did of some, you know, I took a shower afterwards.

[Kyle]

It's not many instructions. And between every two instructions, he was just like, I can't stress this enough. Like, should we just back out of this?

[Dan Jones]

Right.

[Steve]

Wait, how many days before was the. Before the wedding was this. Because then he's probably just like, I can't.

[Kyle]

I think it was like four days maybe.

[Steve]

Yeah. He's like, you do not want to look terrible at your wedding. Shout out to him for looking.

[Kyle]

Is this necessary? That seems like a bit of a gamble. I don't know. Everything worked out.

[Ryan Marcillo]

It would suck if you were to go on a vacation with a pretty serious boyfriend, tan, and then get dumped before the trip. Because then you would be tan and not going anywhere, and then you'd be crying.

[Kyle]

Yeah, streaks. Exactly what he warns about.

[Ryan Marcillo]

How about a bad week?

[Steve]

That would be. That would be rough.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I can't imagine Joe, though, your. Your dad. Was your dad ever like, you're tanning again today? If I ever tanned in high school, that conversation.

[Dan Jones]

I never.

[Steve]

I would tan to the record.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Oh, you never did?

[Steve]

No, no.

[Kyle]

You just got so much more respect from Ryan.

[Steve]

No, I just said there were dudes. It was a lot of the guido guys. You know, Remember the spiky haircut thing? Like, you know, it was like the short look.

[Kyle]

Those guys had concrete in their hair.

[Steve]

I was not one of those guys. I was friendly with some of those guys, but I was not one of those guys. Actually, the guy below me in my yearbook picture is a good guy. His name's Luigi. He funny enough, he had the big, like, you know, blowout. In our picture, he's right below me and it looks like his, like, hair is, like, stabbing me in my. In my senior photo, which is pretty great. But. Yeah, no, we had a lot of guido looking Italian dudes in, you know, the central Connecticut area, and a lot of them went tanning and I didn't want. It wasn't for me. I have done the. The drop tanning thing where you add it to your lotion and it just kind of gives you a little bit different of a shade. And I screwed up.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Bronzer.

[Steve]

It's not quite bronzer. It's just like they're these little drops you put in because I, you know, I moisturize anyway. So you just throw them in and put on your face, whatever, and it gives you a little Bit of a different shade because I was like super pale going to a wedding in Mexico and I was like, I don't, I want to look like the whitest guy here. Probably not. So I did that. But I didn't know you're supposed to wash your hand, you're supposed to wash your hands afterwards. And so my hands were bright orange essentially at this wedding. It was, it was not great. Not great. Didn't know that until afterwards.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Tommy DeVito Tanner. Got it.

[Steve]

That checks out. Good for him.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Okay. Student teacher. Smells like weed. Six three, 250 pounds, deadlift 455 squat 345 bench 260. Would love to be able to do more than five pull ups. Basketball comp is a washed Carmelo. Still try and ISO but shooting well under 30%. I work as a high school teacher in a big city on the west coast. My issue is that my student teacher, let's call him Tommy, comes into work each day with a heavy smell of the ganja. He's a good guy, has good relationship with the students, big ideas for what the students can accomplish, but has some habits of not showing up to work on time and taking a little, a little longer lunch than allotted. He has worked in the school at a different position for many years but has been student teaching for me over a little over a month. I know him well as a work colleague, but I've never hung out with him outside of work. My question is how do I bring up the smell he's carrying around with him? When we pass each other, I get a big whiff of it in his backpack which is in my room, which has led to my room having a lingering stench. Ironically, he can. He'll often talk negatively about a student showing up hi to school and smelling like weed.

[Steve]

Hot kettle.

[Dan Jones]

All right.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah. Or like Kyle's first instinct was that's smart. That's smart. But it sounds like you can't get anyone off this guy's scent. I feel a responsibility to bring it up since I can see it affecting his long term teaching prospects. Is it my job to say something? Do I make a joke about his smell after he talks about the student? Thanks for the advice. Love the show.

[Kyle]

It's a happy hour move. He's going to be so happy that you, a veteran teacher that he probably likes, invited him out. It's 4:30 or something and you're just like, hey, I just want to say, you know, you're doing a great job. I just do think if you want to survive in this, this is Something that maybe somebody's not going to tell you. I'm just, you're doing you a favor. You don't have to be like, it's affecting your teaching. And you know, I, I feel like you could be so much. It's just like, hey, I think there's, this could cause problems for you down the line. And you're, you're, you're. This is the relationship where you're the student teacher and I'm the teacher that I think you could really benefit from this. That's it. Just do it. Do it outside of school. Don't do that weird joke thing where he's going to be freaking out. I think you could just level with.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Him because he's high.

[Steve]

Yeah, totally freaking out, man. I don't know. I kind of feel like. I think you're right, Kyle, but I also think you can.

[Dan Jones]

Why do.

[Steve]

If he makes the joke about dudes about, hey, this student stunk. I don't like when this guy's coming in school high. Be like, hey, dude, really just kind of give him the eyes. Like, I don't know. So you see how we react.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Easy, Peter Tosh. Right? Then he might not even get that reference.

[Kyle]

I don't get it. It's gonna laugh. But I was like, don't, don't be a phony. I don't know this.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah, don't. I like that you didn't laugh. Peter Tosh is so underrated. Anyway, moving on. Here's the thing. I guess it's my turn. Um, you know what I think this is? This is one of those examples of like, where you're giving advice like, hey, I'm not upset. But potentially, you know, down the road, if you're thinking about long term employment here and the impression that you want to make on other people again, I'm cool, man. I get it. I take grass all the time.

[Steve]

I do weed all the time. Big drug guy.

[Ryan Marcillo]

You. You know, a lot of times we get emails like this or like the other day we got the thing about the post office and like, and you tell a post office worker to turn her phone down, you're like, probably not. You're just swinging in once every few months, even though it is annoying and you're not enjoying. Like, that's her domain. She's running the show. And you can try to tell her to turn down. And I can tell you how that's going to go. Like 90 of the time, I know exactly what's going to happen. So I even bother signing up for that interaction. That's only going to make you more upset after the fact. It's just going to be a bad transaction. I don't like the transaction win probability on that chart. Okay. You're starting real low and I don't know if there's any shot. Yeah, right. Like, what happened? They came back in this case, like, he's your student teacher. And I think it's kind of cool that you're not going in this, into this like with a, like a militaristic attitude of the whole thing. Because like most people I don't even think would even email about this, wouldn't even ask. They just go, hey, dude. And I know the stigma because of laws and things being passed, but I still, you know, I don't feel like I that outdated to be like, if you're a student teacher, you probably shouldn't smell like weed in high school all the time. Right. I don't think that's.

[Kyle]

People shouldn't be wondering if you're sober when you're teaching kids. Yeah, it shouldn't really be.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah, you know what? There you go, Kyle. You just nailed it in one sentence. I think that's a thing most people could still agree on a little bit. You know, maybe somebody hit us up and be like, well, you have no idea what the anxiety. You're like, dude, can you not get high before you go teach at a school? So to Kyle's point, and because of the dynamic that you have here, right, that you are the person that has the authority to do this, this isn't another co worker where you're on the same, you're not subordinate or all these different things. Like the, the power chart here is in your favor. And I think that's why it's totally within your realm of whatever you think is your responsibility to say something. This person, because you're not even doing it in a disciplinary way, you're not going up this person being like, I want to get rid of him. Right. You're looking out for him. And so big brother. Yeah, yeah. I mean, who knows the personality dynamic of it all, how he's going to respond. But if you go into this, even though you could, if you want to, like, you could let him have it a little bit for all the things that you just laid out here. And it seems like that's not even in your intent, that's not what you want to do. So having that approach going in with that kind of mindset, I think gives you a massive advantage to at least get him to respond and respect and, and hopefully change it up a little bit because, I mean, we all know what it was like when you were in high school and there was like that teacher. Like, I remember there was this one teacher, man, and you think about it, and everybody used to make jokes about his drinking and everything. And I don't even know what was true or not. Like, it's not like we were hanging out at bars, we're in high school, but people just made fun of it all the time. And I remember, like, there was this moment where he went in the back to like, grab something and somebody made a joke about the drinking and he heard it and like, he came back and was like, what was that? And it's like, imagine being an adult. And who knows? I don't even know if he drinking even was an issue. It's just high school kids and kids are, you know, but if he had a drinking issue or had recovered from it and come out on the other side and you get some 16 year old fucking with you, you know, so this is none of those things. This is, this is you being in your position to go, hey, look, I don't necessarily even have that big of an issue with whatever it is you do when you're away from here, but, like, when you're coming in here and if you want to be taken seriously, right, because right now, in the eyes of some people, you're the stoner student, teacher, all right? That's who you are to some of the kids. That's who you are to some of the other people here that are going to be making a decision on your future. If you want people to be writing you good recommendations and all that kind of stuff. Like, you're at a point right now where if this is something you actually want to do, you've got to start presenting it, presenting yourself a little bit differently. He may come back to you and be like, dude, I hate this job and I never want to do it. And all I want to do is.

[Steve]

Smoke weed, hoping somebody noticed so I can get fired.

[Ryan Marcillo]

You think I like this? Think I want to do this? Like, that's why I am high.

[Kyle]

I don't get unemployment until you tell me to go.

[Ryan Marcillo]

The only way I can get out of my car is when I light one up and walk into this hell hole. Think I want your life, buddy. I'm looking at a van, dude. Online.

[Steve]

Yeah, yeah. Thinking about start an Instagram account.

[Ryan Marcillo]

You see how they're doing those remodels? Day in the life of me fixing up this van to drive The Grand Canyon. All right. I think we have to do another one, don't we? Right? Yeah.

[Steve]

Yep.

[Kyle]

One in.

[Ryan Marcillo]

All right. Can I Venmo people that didn't show up to the super bowl party.

[Steve]

Oh, man, I feel like we've done a version of this, haven't we?

[Ryan Marcillo]

We. We've done versions of this. No question. Like, no question. He gives us his name. Reed 51020 5. Rocking a smooth dad bod. Player comp is Zaza Pachulia. I basically just said a lot of screens get rebounds. My team wins a lot.

[Dan Jones]

Thanks.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Thanks to you, man. Thank you. My wife and I have an annual super bowl party at our place with the same group of friends. Everyone knows the drill. I wait. Wait for two confirmed final numbers. I guess just wait to confirm final numbers of who's coming over till Friday. Then I order pizza and wings for all. And every year I venmo people after the game for food and we settle up on whatever else. Mostly stupid side bets I make with my friends during the game. This year, two people didn't show up for the game. First is my buddy who got sick and let me know the morning of the game he wasn't coming, which I appreciated him not coming because we have a lot of new parents and babies in the group now. So he did the right thing by not coming and spreading anything. The second no show is my friend's wife, who also happens to be besties with my wife, who, quote, was too tired to come. We got no heads up that she wasn't coming. Found out when my buddy arrived without her. So my question is, is it rude to Venmo these friends for their share of the food? My original thought was to cover my buddy that got sick because at least he had a legit reason and gave me a heads up, but that I should charge my buddy for him and his wife since she decided not to come last minute. But my wife thinks if I'm going to make her pay, I should make my friend who got sick pay too. Would love your thoughts.

[Kyle]

Stop all of this, man. Yeah, this is all of this.

[Steve]

How do you know?

[Kyle]

This is. You know, this is why people don't just throw a party for no reason. Because it takes a lot of shit and there's. There's money to be spent. That's why it's like, you don't just have parties. It could be, you know, it's a. It's a large undertaking and I don't think it should be everyone else. Like, you invited me to a party, you know, Even, even at a wedding. Like it's up to you. You're kind of a fucking crazy person if you don't give a thank you. But it's up to you to decide how much. It's not like we're, we're, you know, sending out an evenly split bill across 150 people or whatever. This happened to me two years ago. All the college guys used to come up from New York City, up to my parents house in the Crown Jewel, have a little pool party, play a little stump, maybe see if we want to go out to the bars. Or maybe those guys just go back home to the city. And it was really going strong two years ago. My time is limited. I usually go back for two and a half, three weeks. And we all had this set up and you know, day of I, the morning of I went out, spent probably 250, 300 bucks on food, booze and stuff like that. And you know, as guys do, coming up with reasons that they can't make the trip. A car, my car broke down. The other just like stuff happened, you know, to like four or five different people. Where it turned out only like three guys showed up. And I was like, that sucks. But that's the risk you take when you throw a party. And I just bottle it up. And every time they ask me about throwing another party, I bring out the fact that these guys boned me the day of the party. And I'm not, I'm not, you know, sending them venmos. I'm just, I'm just upset about it. That's it, that's what happens when you, when you take the responsibility of throwing a party. So that's my point.

[Steve]

No, yeah, it's, it's kind of like, you know, throwing a party is like when you start a business, like you assume the, the liability like of the loss, you know, like it's, it's. You're laughing like that's part of throwing a party, man. Like if you have a guy who I don't even know what a scenario would be where I would charge somebody who didn't come, you know, unless, unless like I don't even know. Unless you were like a vegan turkey.

[Kyle]

For Thanksgiving and then you decided not to show up and you only people. Yeah, that's.

[Steve]

Maybe that's fair it. So this to me is absolutely insane. It's also two people. Like if it was like a dozen people and you're like, man, I'm footing this bill like that. Yeah, that sucks more. It's two People. Is that like, what's the dent on that? Is it like 20 bucks? Is it 50 bucks? I mean, I'm not trying to, like, minimalize. Like, everyone's money situations are different. But that's just. That's insanity. And it also sounds like. So there's no way that you can ask your buddy, who legitimately sounds like he was sick and was. And you agree it was the right thing for him not to go, to be like, hey, dude, can you just venmo me 50, 15 bucks or so? That's. That's insane.

[Kyle]

You're gonna get a new nickname out of this. You're gonna get. There's gonna be some terrible nickname that you don't even know about and. Terrible.

[Dan Jones]

But.

[Steve]

But it kind of sounds like you. That only came up because you wanted to charge your wife's friend or the girl or whatever in the situation because her excuse is a little bit less. Hers is a little. I'm tired. Like, I don't love that. But, you know, maybe she was also sick and just didn't want to say that. The point is, you can't. You just can't do this. You just. You gotta eat the L. I hate.

[Kyle]

That you and your wife are encouraging each other.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah, no, that's. That's the headline to me. That's the headline to me. And I'm so glad that you got there, too, Kyle, because Reed doesn't think he's doing anything wrong because his wife, like, think about her process of this. The guy got sick. He told you. To Ceruti's point, we're talking pizza and wings. And I don't like to get in other people's pockets on this stuff because just the dismissive. Hey, take the L. Take the. Pay for everybody else. Because I know that I can probably be a little too casual with it. Right on some of the money stuff that comes up, it's like, oh, man, you know, just suck it up. It all comes around if you're all buddies, because I do think it kind of works its way around. Although I feel like I'm getting hosed left and right lately.

[Kyle]

But, yeah, I haven't been collecting my greens fees lately when I'm booking.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I gotta.

[Kyle]

I gotta really stand up on that.

[Steve]

Oh, wow. Yeah. That's. Different story.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah. Yeah. Greens feast. You got to work it out in the parking lot. 19th whole beer.

[Kyle]

I'll send you a Venmo for that. I just got to get better at it.

[Ryan Marcillo]

What am I paying for again?

[Kyle]

Not you. Not you. I'm saying just in the hypothetical youth, the royal we or whatever, I could.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Just see myself giving you the clubs and being like in your first 218 on me. So if I had said that, I don't remember saying it, but if I had said it, you know, that's, that's maybe something I would say, but I, I know that I didn't. So then when you process it anyway, that none of that's important. This is not a lot of money for what we are talking about. Okay. So my guess is you are like this about this stuff all the time and the fact that your wife was like, okay, but if you're not going to charge him, but now you're going to charge the best friend's wife, who I guess is the wife's best friend, as we said, then you have to now go back and charge the guy that was sick. Like you guys talked this all out and then thought, yeah, this is a good idea instead of just eating the 40 books. Like that's, that's kind of crazy, man. So I want this email to be a wake up call to you because I think you and your wife both need to wake up a little. Because when you worked it all out, you're sitting there, it was, you had a complicit party who also thinks all of these ideas are good ideas. So you needed this outside perspective. You should not venmo anyone. In this case, I think most people would agree. I think we've had other times in the past where it's like a specific dinner party. Right. And somebody goes out and buys all these high end groceries.

[Kyle]

Yes.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I think we've had people be mad that the person that hosted charged them because they never said that they were going to be charged. You know, I understand there's.

[Steve]

All of these bachelor parties are like, if you bail last minute, like you probably have to pay for the, for the room, you know, or whatever, wherever place you're staying.

[Ryan Marcillo]

I did it. I know I said it once. There was a bachelor party as I just moved to Connecticut. I didn't have a ton of money, but my schedule was all over the place. They were like, are you in on this bachelor party? And I was like, I'm probably not going to be able to go. And he was like, can you do the deposit? And I was like, I'll do the deposit if you want the number. But is there any way that I like, can we work it out? And he's like, if you tell me by this time that you can't go, I would give you the deposit.

[Kyle]

Back.

[Ryan Marcillo]

And I was like, all right, awesome. No problem. Gave him the deposit, told him by the time it couldn't go, the guy motherfucked me. Was like, can't believe you're asking for your deposit back. And I was like, really? And I sent him the email and he's like, or I'm the asshole. And that was it. And then he went to Venmo me or whatever that was at the time, and it wasn't set up. I think it might have been PayPal. And I didn't have it set up. He sent it to me and then it bounced back to him. And I still was so broke that I was like, hey, dude. He's like, you can fuck off again. I was like, man, we both told each other to off like three different times. And I look back on it and I totally understand his point. Except when you're in that situation financially, you're paying attention to that kind of stuff. This isn't even that big of a transaction. Like, we've had bigger stuff. I think the surprise Venmo thing, after you didn't know that you were going to have to Venmo on some of the dinner parties that we've talked about, is kind of a bullshit thing. But again, I don't want to be telling everybody to pay for everything all the time. In this case, pay for the fucking pizza and wings. You are going to lose way more into your friend group by asking for this to be paid for from a guy that was sick and a wife not showing up because you have some weird rules that cancel each other out. You are going to lose more equity with your friend group being like, did you hear what Reed did to sick Dave?

[Kyle]

I wonder if like, her, the wife saying, well, if you're going to charge my friend, you have to charge your sick friend thinking like, well, that's insane. He was sick. And like, hopefully maybe he would just drop the whole idea and he's just like, wait a second. You're right. You know, don't do that. You guys gotta have a code.

[Ryan Marcillo]

Don't do it. Like, even if they pay it, the 40 bucks is not worth the damage you were gonna do. But I'm. I'm actually a little scared based on the email and you and your wife both thinking, this is the move. This is already something your friends discuss.

[Dan Jones]

Just.

[Steve]

Cause I can't get enough of this. The other thing too is like, this would imply that you bought like the exact amount of food for however many people are there. Like, down to the.

[Kyle]

I've tried to do the math, six wings, That's.

[Steve]

And you actually, you probably made out because you're getting the leftovers here. Unless, like, everyone's taking care of package home, but you're. There's a good chance you're getting an extra pizza to have at lunch the next day and you got leftover.

[Ryan Marcillo]

They may not be leftover people, though, but they might.

[Steve]

Maybe. That's insane because leftovers are the absolute best.

[Ryan Marcillo]

But I. Leftover wings.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Throw them in the air fryer. You kidding me? Oh, my God. But. But the idea, like, the idea that, like, everyone is completely like, this is what your cost was for this particular day, down to the wing and slice of pizza. It's never going to be equal. It's never going to make sense. Like, somebody probably ate more slices and ate more wings and ate less. Like, it never evens out, dude. And if you're hosting the party again, this is. I'm not, I'm. It's a joke. But it's not like you are assuming the responsibility. You are assuming the loss here and the risk. And that's just part of. That's part of the deal, dude.

[Ryan Marcillo]

So we agree. I wonder how he's. Will he listen to this, thinking we're crazy, or do you think it'll get through to him a little bit?

[Steve]

I think I. I'm hopeful that that's pretty harsh. I'm hopeful that it got There had to be, though sometimes there's some harsh realities that need to be had, you know?

[Ryan Marcillo]

Yeah. No question. No question, Steve. Okay, we have a YouTube page and you can subscribe to the podcast Ryan Rasulo podcast. Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Steve on ringer and spot.

[Dan Jones]

Foreign.

[Ryan Marcillo]

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