← The Ryen Russillo Podcast
The Ryen Russillo Podcast
Pacers Dominate to Force Game 7! Plus, Full NBA Draft Breakdown With Sam Vecenie and Rutgers Coach Steve Pikiell
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- [00:00]
Ryan Rosillo
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We're talking draft and no one better to do it with than San Francini of the Athletic. We're going to run through the top picks. We're going to run through some of the lottery rumors. We're going to do some rapid fire stuff, including one player that it seems like all of us kind of love that you may not know anything about. And we'll also talk Ace Bailey and what is going on with his team and the decision making of not working out for any teams. Or at least that we know of. And speaking of Ace Bailey, his head coach, a Connecticut guy played against Woj in middle school. Rutgers head coach Steve Paykel. We're going to talk about Dylan Harper. We're going to talk Ace, also his Yukon roots and that'll do it for a Basketball Loaded podcast on a Friday. You're listening to the Ryan Rosilla podcast presented by FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during the NBA Finals. And with live betting, the tip off is just the beginning. Look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back and enjoy the game as you track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of this episode. For additional details must be 21 and older and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call what 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com we have a game seven for the first time since 2016, Pacers dominate game six at home after being down 10280 run brings a 1010 running through the scores here. They got it to 7042 in the third quarter. So from the first five minutes of game six to just under five minutes in the third quarter, that means the Pacers outscored the Thunder 68 to 32. That's hard to do against a team that won 68 games in the regular season and again, the greatest point differential that we've seen in this game. So we can talk about turnovers here for okc, which I want to talk about. You know, the shooting part of it is also a part of this, this OKC three point shooting stuff, which has been, I would say on the whole pretty disappointing for a team that shoots as well as they do throughout the playoffs. But I'd always talked about like, look how bad they're shooting it based on what the standard would be. Granted, the playoffs are a little bit different. You could also get in a conversation on who's actually taking those shots and if you would talk to other teams like the way they thought if you were going to beat the Thunder is load up on SGA and hope the other guys miss, which isn't exactly like the most groundbreaking stuff. There's plenty of teams that'll do that against the other team's top players. But I'll admit, like when Chet doesn't really want to take the three awful check game, by the way, you can see that he's a little reluctant. It feels like some of the other role guys on the road, they're not as comfortable. I tell you that there's times where Dort passes up a better look for a worse look, where he'll get himself in a spot where it's like, okay, well he didn't want to take the shot. Is he going to swing the ball? Is he going to dribble, drive and then kick it out to somebody else? I know that you don't want Dort necessarily freelancing with the ball in his hands, but then it seems like he waits and then gets himself into more of a contested three. So I think there's Dort shot decisions throughout this entire series that I would question. Even on the nights where it feels like it's going in. So that was very clear defensively. And I'll. I'll tell that story throughout the SGA turnovers, but I don't want to because even though the thunder finish at 8 of 30 from 3, which is actually like a respectable 27%, that's quite an improvement for where they're at at halftime. At halftime, they're down 22. All the energy clearly in that building is just outrageous. Carlisle saying it's the loudest he's ever heard the place, which you would imagine. I mean, they're fighting for their lives and an NBA championship. So The Thunder are 1 and 11, 1 4, 11 from 3 at halftime versus 9 of 24 from 3 for the Pacers. So you're minus 24 points on threes at the half and down 22. Turnover. Story of this one, throwing 12 turnovers at the half for OKC and points off of turnovers, they're minus 14 points. So I think again, they'd had two and the Pacers had 16 points off a turnover. So you add up that kind of stuff, like, you're down 22, you're going to lose. Like, it's a credit to the Thunder that you're even thinking, like, all right, if they get it to 10, the magical get it to 10, as if just getting it to 10 solves all your problems. So OKC, they're shooting stories throughout the place. They've had eight playoff games. Here are their percentages. 20, 26, 24, 27, 31, 32, 19. And then last night, 27% from three. They were four and three in those games. Now four and four with the eighth one last night, which is a credit to their defense, which was not nearly as intense as the Pacers defense. So then the 21 turnovers, that's the most they've had in the game in any game. Regular season, playoffs, 104 games. Now, I saw that note this morning. SGA had eight turnovers. That's where I really want to focus. Some of this open here. That's the most he's had in his career. So let's take a look at those. So SGA tries to dribble through two people early in the game, and he wasn't. It was like he was, I don't want to say slow or late. There's some other stuff where I felt like he was slower late or late to realize what was happening defensively, but it just didn't even really make any sense. And maybe because it's SGA and there's so Many times he can do something and get to a spot where you just don't expect it because he's just so smooth and crafty with a dribble and he's got that size and he just figures out a way. So, you know, you don't want to question a guy who wins mvp, but it just like you're just going to go into those two guys. And granted, I'm watching it after the fact the next morning, knowing the turnover is coming. Number two strip by Nem Hart. Terrific defensive play. I mean, Nemhardt is giving it to him, man. I mean, the off the ball stuff, anytime SG is coming over to meet the ball, you know, we've talked a lot about, you know, what you're asking your point guard or your number one scoring option to do when you're asking to bring the ball up the entire time. Getting him off the ball is really nice because it just makes his life easier throughout the course of a series in an intense game like last night. And then you watch what Nemhardt's doing to him off the ball. You can see, okay, seeing like maybe we're, we're better off having him initiating this at the top. So at least he kind of knows where he's going. Um, number three, it was just a, a bad pass. Now something else I noticed with this where SGA and I would say maybe J will like, they want Siakam. Clearly Nith's like the first choice. But when SGA can get Siakam, he wants to try to get a switch with him. But if he gets going at him, there's the size problem with Siakam and his athleticism. But if you notice the second defender who was ever originally assigned sj, he just stays in the play. Like the way they were helping off the perimeter guys being like, we just don't like this is going to be the game plan. You're going to have to make these shots. And SGA is either getting frustrated, not realizing what's happening. I just didn't feel like he saw the court really well for a guy that's just such a special, special player. So I don't know really what I'm. I'd be curious to think, like when they watch the film of this, if the adjustment is him just being a little bit more aware, because if the Pacers are going to sell out like this against sga, I don't care who you are, five eyes, five sets of eyes are looking at you. That's not really a great recipe for success. Ask Anthony Edwards when he was playing this Thunder team. So the fourth turnover was an offensive foul. The fifth turnover he gets triple teamed. Obi Toppin leaves Caruso in the right corner. Three point line just leaves him, doesn't care. The initial defender still with sga. And then TJ just leaves his guy and just comes down on the basketball. And you're looking at this and it's four people in a telephone booth and three of them are for the Pacers and the other guy's sga. The sixth turnover is the one that really pissed me off because I just thought it was such a careless, careless turnover. So on the right side and this is actually kind of fascinating considering this is what Carlisle and the staff are telling these guys to do against sga. He's got kind of like a mid post so he's not in the paint. He's extended out and he's trying to back down. Nem heart Neesmith has Jalen Williams at the top of the key. Jalen Williams had just scored 40 points in game 5. Niecemith is helping off of him to double SGA. Dort runs through the lane. Halliburton's defending him. Dort gets to the other side of the paint on the left side. Halliburton just stops in the paint and stays and starts pointing out cause he's just like, hey, my guy's over there. Siakam who has Caruso, never leaves the paint and Caruso's all the way on the other side. He starts in the lower left side three point line and then works himself up to the break. And then you have the big who's still hanging at the rim. I think it was Turner. So you watch this play and you're looking at SJ going okay, you're doubling and they're helping off of Jalen Williams. Like they're selling out against you, man. If somebody cuts to the paint, the defensive player trailing him stays to kind of see what you're going to do. And SGA just kind of like carelessly throws this one handed pass. He's trying to get to J Will and it has no chance. Not against the effort that we saw from the Pacers last night. Not their intensity. Number seven was just a bad pass to Hartenstein. Number eight. They actually were like, let's get SGA to bring the ball up over the court. Let's start him back up at the top. Regular season SGA stuff. He of course is double teamed, works down the left side. That actually gets a decent pass off to Wallace. But Wallace wasn't Ready. And honestly, if Wallace had caught it, I don't know that he was going to finish against top and he probably wasn't going to anyway. Those turnovers speak to. Because what I not doing here, let me say it one more time. What I'm not doing is calling last night's game like, ah, they were sloppy and there's some shooting variants. That's not the story. I mean sure they didn't hit any shots and yes there are sloppy turnovers, but this was about the Pacers being far more certain of what they were trying to do and ultimately selling out defensively against SGA on so many of these possessions and then thinking, hey, nobody else is going to make any of these shots or at least that's the gamble and the gamble worked and the effort part of it. I mean there's just even stretches where I've seen the Pacers lose some of these games. You'll see these five six minute stretches where it's like can OKC grab a defensive rebound? Like what is going on with this team? So I think that's kind of where we close because we ask it now going, all right, what is going on with this team? I still think OKC is going to win game seven at home. You know, we can get through some of the history of this stuff. I think it's kind of funny that SGA's high fiving pacers fans on the way out getting your ass kicked like that at this point. I think it's the benefit of the doubt thing where depending on if we still had questions about who a player was, it'd be like man, little, little, little too relaxed for my, my taste. Remember J Will after the I know he's J Dub, but whatever. After the Denver loss late where he's bad and he's sniffing a Gatorade and you're watch game press conference and I'll admit probably like a lot of you, you're watching the video being like, are these guys just kind of like a little too casual about all this stuff? These guys just kind of like weird and when they're a game away from an NBA title it is, they're so calm. Nothing rattles these guys whatsoever. So I think again at this point with SGA seeing high five guys leaving after this kind of game, uh, it's probably a good sign. Like he is the same thing all the time. He's never going to be really up, he's never going to be really down and that's probably really good especially with a young team to not Be what you would think in most cases, like really rattled and freaking out, being like, we were up 3, 2. We play like this and now who knows what can happen in any single game. You could look back at some of the historical stuff that I think is always like, kind of a good thing to remember, because we hold these teams that we think are going to win a championship to almost impossible standards, where it's like, we never expect them to have these bad playoff games. I mean, we have this team with okc. Whether you want to pick one of the Denver ones, probably the better one for them would be Minnesota, but they were up 20 in that series. They're up 2 0. They go to Minnesota, they get their asses kicked, and it's like, whatever, no problem. And they win one of my favorite games of this entire postseason, Game 4 at Minnesota, which I just thought was an unbelievable game and a really tough win. So we've already seen them respond after something's like, what? What is going on? But I mean, you can run through all this stuff. Now, granted, when Boston wins a title last year, they were 3, 0 when they got destroyed by Dallas in game four. You know, if you look back at what Golden State in back in 22, they lost game three by 16. So I guess you could talk about the score. I mean, this game got to like 30 points. So this was more of an ass kicking than that game was. You know, you could look, I don't think the 16 Cavs Warrior Series makes any sense, really. Trying to figure out what we have historically there other than an all time comeback. They lost games one and two combined by 48 points and came back and won that. But they still had some room. Now there's no room. And now the Pacers go to OKC with a lot of us believing in them and catching up to the belief they've had in themselves. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. If you're in B2B marketing, you want to make sure you're not wasting your ads on the wrong people. I remember when I was younger and I would watch games on television and I thought, man, a lot of ads about retirement, who's this for? And then I got older and I understood it. I was like, oh, now it makes sense. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. You can target your buyers based on job title industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue. All the professionals you need to reach in one place. 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Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside of wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y F a a I r.com Wayfair Every style, every home. It's my favorite time of year and it has been too long. San Francini the Athletic I believe the standard when it comes to NBA Draft coverage and the amount of work that he puts into this. So we're going to run through as much of it as we can, whether it's the names, whether it's the rumors, whether it's the teams. So let's get to it. Cooper flag. Honestly, every time I would watch him, I found something else to fall in love with. So this feels a little shitty to do it this way. Like, hey, what could we. Is there any part of you, as much as we all love him, is there any part where you go, will he be the number one guy in a really good team, which you're basically like expecting to get you buckets and carry you through playoff wins? Because that's really what, what the, the tier of like the great ones. That's ultimately what all these guys can do for sure.
- [17:45]
Sam Vecenie
Like, I think that's a reasonable question right now because he's a good shooter right now. He's not like an elite shooter right now. He is a reasonable separator with the ball in his hands. Like, he's good at taking advantage of mismatches. He's really creative at finding mismatches, I think. And because he plays so hard, he has like kind of a, like a Pascal Siakam kind of vibe to him in some respects, where because he plays so hard and is constantly working to establish position and constantly working to play physically in some way, he's just able to get the mismatches that he wants regularly. Like, he will keep guys attached to him and he will, you know, put himself in strong positions by going to the offensive glass and rebounding and cutting all the time. And you know, if you think that like a Pascal Siakam can be a number one scoring option, which frankly he is on a, you know, NBA finalist right now, then you should have no concerns. I don't think about Cooper being like a number one scoring option on a really great team. And I think Cooper ceiling is higher than that because the level of growth that he has shown over the course of the last, what, like 18, 20 months, something like that as a shooter is pretty drastic. He continues to get better. And everything that you hear about the human being himself is that this kid is just a crazy worker. Like, he was just in Dallas for a, you know, pre draft workout. Like you get together and everything and they were just like, oh, wow. Like this kid is like, like you would hear about, you know, guys like Anthony Edwards where they would come into their pre draft workouts when they know that they're going number one or number two or Whatever. And they don't have to go to many workouts and they're, they're fine. They're in shape. Like, they're not maybe not like game ready, but they're in shape. They're doing well, not necessarily doing like a full pre draft process like the guys below them have to in order to kind of position themselves best to be drafted. Dallas is like, yeah, this kid could play in an NBA game tomorrow. Like, he's just like ready to go right now. Like his prep is. He's just elite in that respect. He's always competitive, he's always ready to go. So I think that he's just one of those dudes where you bet on the character, you bet on the competitiveness, you bet on the drive and any issues that you perceive that he has right now, you think he's going to figure them out.
- [20:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, well said. Nothing to add to that. Okay, why is Dylan Harper the clear number two? Because the way you tear it out, it's Cooper in his own tier, Dylan's in another tier, and then we'll get through kind of the names that we filter through. However many guys in the lottery first round we get to.
- [20:21]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, I really like the idea that you can play both on and off the ball as much as anything. I think he's going to be best on the ball. I think that his ability to get rim pressure is really valuable. I mean, you talked to Steve Paykel earlier. I mean, I know that Rutgers offense this year was not the most well spaced offense just because they didn't have many shooters. Right. And Dylan was still able to create five shots at the rim in half court settings per game. It's kind of crazy. He's just so strong with his gathers and with his footwork and with his creativity. He's extremely polished with the ball in his hand. So that ability to get rim pressure is exceptionally important in the NBA. Like you compare and contrast him with the guy that a lot of people had at number three all year in Ace Bailey. Ace never gets easy shots. That's the issue with Ace really. Like nothing he does is easy. He does the spectacular really well, to some extent at least, but there's never anything easy. And because he does the spectacular well, the highlight reels and everything just look amazing. But, but you watch it game in, game out for 40 minutes and there are flaws that pop up with Dylan. He creates easier opportunities for himself because he's able to navigate tight quarters really well. He's really good at using his length to extend and finish at A high level. I also think we didn't get to see the best of him as a passer. If you go watch some USA Basketball stuff, you'll find that he can really make passing reads and play as like a real point guard. But then he also drilled 37% of his catch and shoot threes this year too. So it's a great fit in San Antonio. I mean, I would not even entertain moving the pick because if I'm San Antonio, I'm sitting there thinking I'm probably not going to be back up here again. I have Victor Wembanyama, I have Darren Fox. I can't. I can't expect to be able to get an elite, elite talent like this in the draft again anytime soon. So I'm just taking Dylan Harper and being very happy with this.
- [22:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, now it gets interesting. How many players do you have in this next group after Harper?
- [22:25]
Sam Vecenie
Of four.
- [22:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, and give us four the order.
- [22:31]
Sam Vecenie
So I have Khan, then Vijay Con Can Apple, Vijay Edgam, Trey Johnson, and then Ace Bailey. I think that the consensus league wide right now, if you made me say from talking to teams, is probably VJ at 3 for sure. And then any group of that trio. Honestly, some teams are just kind of out on Ace and aren't really interested. And it's really easy to say that whenever you don't have a chance to get them. In all likelihood, you can just say that you're out. Right? And that's what it is. But, you know, some teams really like Khan. Some teams are worried about the upside. Some teams really like Trey Johnson and his ability to really work like crazy and run off of screening actions and things like that and shoot it. Some are worried about his ability to create easy shots on some level. It's really just a, you know, mix and match. And then some teams will have fears in this group and some teams will have Malawatch in this group too.
- [23:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, so let's dig through all these players because there's a lot that I like about all of them. And I probably still have Ace behind Kanipple, behind vj behind Trey. I went to thinking I would like Vijay the most because I just thought he had the most in him. You know, obviously the athleticism. I know there's concerns about positional stuff, but two things jumped out that were alarming. Like whenever I was doing the VJ tape, I was like, man, he seems to miss a lot of these layoffs, you know, And I'm sitting there going, he missed another one. And then I remember, like the first thing I Wrote down was, I'd like to see him make a few more. And then I went through synergy and looked at his layup. So it's the non dunks. The dunks are always nice, but the layups, he's in the 15th percentile on points per shot. And for somebody to be that athletic and that dynamic, you're like, how is he not finishing at even an average level in college? And so it, it made me kind of like get down on him. And then when I look at Trey and I don't know if you'd agree or disagree, I think he makes the most NBA type shots of any prospect. The. The high end shot making from Trey of Texas is incredible. But then when you look at his stuff at the rim, he was in like the 28th percentile. So VJ was still even worse. And then you circle it back around to Knipple and you go, okay, fine. Knipple didn't test really well in some of the agility stuff. He's going to get labeled like a white guy from Duke and all that stuff. I'll tell you right now, like, Trey, I know what I have to ask him to do. Vj, I'm not sure what he can do. But Knipple, I don't care who the other four guys are that he'd be playing with. You can come up with any combination of four basketball players. Knipple would figure out a way to play off of them and then give you something positive. And that's where when I saw your ranking at first, I was like, is he nuts? And I actually think you're right.
- [25:22]
Sam Vecenie
Thank you. No, it's funny, like, I think that he definitely suffers from the, you know, he's just like the white Duke kid kind of label, right? And look like, you know, he looks. It was funny the first time that somebody explained con can apple to me. I forget who was playing. He was playing maybe like the Cam Scott kid that's at South Carolina who like committed to a couple kids. He's like a top 50 player in the country or whatever. And the way that Knipple was explained to me was like, yeah, so he's this like white kid from Wisconsin who looks like a bus driver and just gives everyone buckets. And I was just like, okay, I need to see this kid, right? I need to understand this because he was leading the EYBL or whatever in points. And I was like, okay, let's. Let's figure this out. And I watched him and I was like, oh, so he just like, really Knows how to play like, he knows how to use his body, knows how to use his frame, knows how to relocate at a super high level, just understand spatially where to, you know, move and how to create space for his teammates as well in a really strong way. And then the most impressive part of his season was when Cooper Flag goes down in the ACC tournament, and he just immediately steps up and takes over as the number one option. It's like, yeah, look, I can go and score 20 if I want to. That's not what Duke needs for me. Duke needs for me to be the best number two option for Cooper Flag right now, and that's okay, but I want to show you guys that I can do it. And he goes out and wins ACC Tournament mvp, right? So he kind of just does it all for me. And again, like, I do think that the way that he looks like being the white dude that doesn't have the traditional frame of, like, an NBA player really kind of makes people look at him incorrectly on defense as much as anything. I know you had Shire on earlier this week. I'm sure Shire, like, spoke incredibly positively of his defense, right?
- [27:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I mean, I got to spend 30 minutes with Shire, but we had a couple minutes before we started taping, and I just went, hey, I. I watch Knipple, but you can't stop. But, you know, pay more attention to Flag. If I'm just watching a Duke game this year, right? And I get to it late, and everybody listening understands the way the schedule works for me. And then Malawatch has these moments. You're like, this is nuts. And then you've got these guards, and. And, you know, Sion's, like, really impressive sometimes, too, physically. And Proctor's got a resume and all this stuff. So, like, when I really went back was like, I'm only watching Nipple. And I told Char, I go, I cannot believe a kid this young has that. As you were saying, the spatial awareness and that. Hey, I'm coming off of a pin down. All right. You know, we're. We're kind of clunky right now, so let me just go back down and set a screen for the screener. And. And some of this stuff is so instinctive that you notice. Like, I don't even think he was told to do this. I don't think this was a come off the screen and then a re. Screen or the way he'll set up a cut where he's like, oh, wait, they're overplaying me. And even though I'm supposed to come out Here and release. Like, I'm going to set this guy up and then cut, cross, and then this gets shut off and then I'm going to come up here and then it's like, I mean, automatically he already feels like a nice option, just off a screen, on a catch and shoot, which completely eliminates, or I would say ignores the stuff where it's like, if he gets you on the wing and it's the weak side and he isn't that worried about the help, like, he's going to put that shoulder right into you. Like, look, it's asking a lot of guy a year out of high school to do it against NBA players, but he would beast some of these dudes that you could tell were like, what the fuck is this guy doing to me? So, yeah, I'm with you. The real hardcore, like, deep dive into him. I don't know how anybody who, like, loves basketball wouldn't go, you know. And Shire was just like shaking his head going, you're right. Like the off ball, the cutting, I mean, this is stuff that you usually don't see. Like, some NBA players never figured this stuff out and the kid wasn't even a dude and had it. So if we look at Philadelphia 3, what do you think makes sense for them?
- [29:08]
Sam Vecenie
Look, the thing that makes the most sense for them is to trade down. And to be honest with you, I think they're playing it perfectly to this point because the guy that. And look, maybe they do want to take Vijay Edgecombe. Like, I absolutely don't want to rule that out at all. I completely think that that makes sense. If you want to take vj, if you think he's just the top guy. Daryl Morey tends to love stars, and if you think Vijay has the most star equity in the class, take them, whatever, right? But I still think the thing that makes the most sense for them is to trade down. And the reason for that is that they are a team that has a lot of needs this off season. And I would argue that really none of these guys are perfect for them in some way. Right? They have a ton of guards already between Tyrese Mackie, Jared McCain likely keeping Quentin Grimes. Don't know that you necessarily have a ton of room for VJ right now. Right. Ace Bailey is a kid that I'm sure we're going to talk about, like, just very immature game. Let's go with Tre Johnson, I think can work just because he's a spacer. I think Khan can work because he's a spacer. But again, guys, that are like 6 foot 5 and you probably, if anything, need more of like the Ace Bailey sized physicality on your team, you know, more than anything. Like 6, 8, 6 foot 9. Guys who can play with the ball in their hands and do things like that. But if he's not ready, then you're a front office that's in a little bit of trouble right now. After the way last season went, you probably need to take a bit of a jump next year. I don't know how great of an idea Ace is entering that kind of idea, that scheme and everything. So I think that trading down still makes the most sense. And if I was them, what I would be projecting publicly, given that I think Vijay is the guy that most other teams feel most comfortable with, I would be projecting right now that I like Vijay the most and that I would take Vijay because I think he's the guy that has the most potential equity in a trade up right now. But I'm not saying they don't like Vijay. I'm just saying that if I was them, that is certainly what I would be projecting publicly because it gives me the most options moving forward.
- [31:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, and I like what you said there too, because we can all sit here and say like, well, Philly has to trade. We don't have to do anything. And you don't have to do anything if you don't like what the other offers are. And you can say, well, they're really guard heavy. So bj, like, how much sense does that make? Well, Ace Bailey wouldn't play for this team next year. Although I think we should throw in the caveat that it's likely that anybody who gets drafted probably is going to get minutes with this team because one of the guys is going to get hurt. Because that's just what's happened here. But if everybody's healthy, you know, cannibal maybe, you know, maybe vj probably Trey because of the shooting, but Ace Bailey, I just, I can't imagine Nick Nurse being like, let's make sure we get this guy 12 to 15 developmental minutes as we're trying to salvage everybody's job and, and put together. Look, if they're a healthy team with the way the east is, they shouldn't think that they can't compete to win this conference or at least go deep in the playoffs. Despite the playoff resumes, some of the guys on the team. So let's focus on Ace because you're right, the highlights like this is somebody that people were trying to push as maybe the only guy that could challenge Cooper flag for the number one pick before this college season got started. So let's start with his game and probably more importantly now. And if you don't know this, because last night, once it was announced, he canceled Friday's visit with Philadelphia, it means he's the only US Prospect because some of the European guys are still playing. He's the only US Prospect that hasn't visited any team. And teams last night were texting me, like, do you know what's going on? Or what's going on here? And I think it has a lot more to do with his representation than it does Ace.
- [32:50]
Sam Vecenie
I think that that's really important to start this conversation. First and foremost is that everything I've been told about Ace Bailey, like, the human, right, is that he's a good kid. He's, like, a kid, right? He's a teenager. He's 18. Like, he's. He's, like, kind of goofy and, like, fun and, like. No, everyone on the team, like, liked Ace Bailey. You know what I mean? It's not. It's not like there was any sort of, like, problem there with him, right? So I think it's just really important to start the conversation with that before we dive into the other pieces of this here. Now, why this is important, why, in my opinion, it's important that you know, whether or not he's been anywhere, I think that Ace realistically probably should have gone quite a few different places. At the end of the day, he should have gone, like, basically everywhere from, like, you know, two to eight, in my opinion, in order to really find, like, a landing spot. Because what teams are questionable about with Ace is this. There is, like, a maturity question, right? There is a focus question, honestly, that I've gotten from, you know, I think eight to 10 NBA teams just in terms of, like, is what is his focus like? And you see it on the court as well. Like, he's a player that, frankly, does not engage defensively nearly enough. When he is engaged defensively, he's incredibly valuable with his length in his athleticism and his ability to cover ground across the court. But a lot of time he's not engaged. He misses help rotations. He misses tags on the weak side roller like he is. Whereas Con can Apple does all of that stuff. Like, you look at Ace Bailey and you look at Con Knippel, I would guess that 95% of the general public will be like, oh, yeah, Ace Bailey is a way better defender than Con Knipple. Knipple was a better defender this year because he Was stronger through his chest and had the ability to like, you know, hold the line defensively on drives. And then additionally, he was just always available. He was always there. And yes, he wasn't as disruptive as Ace at aces apex moments of engagement, but you could rely on him. And that's the biggest thing when you're talking about defense. Like, you just need guys that you can trust to move on a string and be consistently available for one another. So there's that piece of it. And the reality is, is why that's important is Ace Bailey is choosing to enter the NBA at 18 years old, right? Like, that's his decision. And it's a totally reasonable, rational decision given that he's going to make $6 million next year. Right. Or whatever. It's going to be maybe 10 if he goes third overall. But at the end of the day, like, it presents this concern that given the questions about maturity and focus and everything like that, is he actually on our timeline or am I developing him for another team's timeline? Right. Is it a thing where we're going to get him? We're willing to wait for stars in the NBA. Like, we're willing to take as much time as we can in order to let these kids figure it out. But that time, given the depth of the NBA right now, is kind of shrinking. I don't know if you feel that way, but I feel like it's shrinking the amount of time that we give kids to develop. And it's not whether or not he's going to mature. Like, ace Bailey at 25 is going to be a totally different human being than he is at 18. And that's the way everybody is. So every human being is on some level. But can we wait? Can he develop by the time he's 20 or 21? What if it is until he's 25? So we're going to have this kid for seven years and then he's going to be a star. That's kind of a hard sell, right? So I think the team that drafts Ace at the end of the day just needs to be one that has like a really strong locker room, has a group of vets that can kind of like help. Help show him the way and everything. And you don't want to have like a ton of stakes in terms of winning and losing games, because as he develops, he's going to shoot you out of games. He's going to make bad decisions. He is not a player that reads the court well offensively right now, but the ceiling is Very high. He has a ton of gifts from a balance perspective, from an explosiveness perspective, from a shot making perspective. There's just so much there that you can, you can build off of with him, but it's going to take time is the thing. So I kind of think, like, that. I mean, you bounce off of that. Like, when I say all of that, like, what's your immediate response?
- [37:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I don't really have more to add on that. I think it's more of giving some more perspective on what's going on with his representation. Because it's Omar Cooper, who's Sharif Cooper's father, who doesn't have a ton of clients. And you hear these things, you're like, all right, you know, maybe is this all gamesmanship? Do they want him to go to Washington? Because you know what, if he goes there, he's going to get shots immediately. Does he not. Does he cancel with Philly for all the basketball reasons that we mentioned? Like, if everybody's healthy, it's like, this guy's never going to play. Does it make sense for him to drop all the way to Brooklyn? Is it. Is it less about the ego of going the highest possible pick to going to the best fit and then thinking about where you are contractually after four years of rookie, rookie scale pay? So I, you. You could, you could try to look at this and give them the benefit of the doubt. I would tell you, in NBA circles, no one is happy about this and no one's giving them the benefit of the doubt.
- [38:16]
Sam Vecenie
No, absolutely not. And look, like, I'll just say this too. Like, the feedback that I've gotten from Ace Bailey's, like, interviews with teams at the combine was not positive. Right. It's not like anybody came away thinking he's bad kid. I don't think anybody, like, removed him from their board or anything because of a bad interview. Like, nothing like that remotely. But they felt like he kind of went in, like, not well prepared for them, frankly, which kind of speaks to the representation piece of it. And even just logically with the representation side in regard to canceling the Philadelphia workout, right? So, a, there's the fact that, like, Philadelphia probably put a lot of resources into this, right? Like, you could just say, no, you don't want to go work out there at the end of the day. Instead, you have Philadelphia set up the travel, set up the hotel, set up all the things that they're going to have him do once he gets to the workout. Like, it's a lot of man hours. So it's disrespectful in that regard. So obviously NBA teams aren't going to be super happy there. But even just think about it logically, right? If you are Ace Bailey's representation, you're handling this correctly, you should want to go to Philly and make it so that Philadelphia can leak that they love you. Even if. Even if you think Philly's not going to take him, right? And you think that he's off Philly's board for whatever reason, right? You have that information, whatever. If you're his reps, you should go to Philly, burn the house down. Make it so that Philly decides, okay, we now have leverage to be able to say, oh, we'll move this pick. So somebody has to come up for Ace. And the reason you do that is that the difference between pick number three and pick number six or whatever in terms of salary is like $10 million for your client. So if you can convince a team, hey, no, you have to go up to number three to get him. Philly's really strongly considering him. It's a home run. Like, you get potentially 10 million extra dollars for your client if you can convince them to do that. So even strategically, I think this makes no sense. I think that it has been so poorly handled by Ace's representation. I think it's reflected unfortunately upon him. When in reality, I do think it's them that are the problem here. And when I just look at where this is all settling, I think that Ace is now entering the NBA with, like, kind of a target on his back. Like, he's this kid that wants to be able to have his own show from day one. He only wants to, you know, be a star or whatever. Look at the best wings, you know, in the NBA, the guys that you could theoretically compare to Ace Bailey. Jason Tatum came in, played minutes for Boston, for sure. Like, was a starter, was really good, average, what, like 13 points a game wasn't their main option by any stretch. Kawhi Leonard came in, was like a three and D guy, you know, obviously came in as like a great defender early on for San Antonio. Then developed into that superstar Paul George came in, wasn't super ready to go from the jump. Mostly came off the bench, but had like a real rotation, you know, spot in his rookie season and then developed into what he is capable of being. Most of the wings that become these superstar wings, they do take time. So the fact that he wants this so quickly, I think also in his representation wants this so quickly also just reflects a misguided misunderstanding of how these players develop as well.
- [41:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, let's talk Utah. Um, you know, I've heard whether it's the leftover guards here, right? And you start thinking about like, all right, well, they've already drafted some guards and it's like, all right, but like, even if you like some of those guys, I mean, Colin Sexton's a rotational guy forever. George is, you know, who knows, he's probably going to play in the league a long time. But it's like, if you like dj, if you like nipple, if you like these guys better, you probably just go ahead and do it if you can't find some kind of trade partner. But that's where the fears part of this becomes interesting because Jeremiah Fears out of Oklahoma, he reclassifies, I would say on the ball, he is as dynamic as anybody in this draft. He had a play I was watching today against Kentucky in the SEC tournament where they threw it out to ahead of him in transition. He catches it somehow on the baseline and is able to stay in bounds, stop his body, then turn back around and make the layup even though he's wide open. It's like an absurd wide receiver type play, which tells you we're talking about elite body control. But he is compromised physically. Obviously he does not hit threes. I was looking at his high school stats. He was 28% this year at Oklahoma. He's 24% in high school. But again, high school stats can be super misleading. So, you know, don't quote me on that one. What I'm wondering is if he's in this mix, which I think you would agree he's in this mix in this range. Based on some of the pre draft stuff. You have him 18th overall in this class?
- [43:11]
Sam Vecenie
I do.
- [43:12]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay.
- [43:13]
Sam Vecenie
Your case, like, I don't like small guards is my case. Like it's kind of. It's the reality. I think that the standard to be a great small guard in the NBA is so high, it is so hard. Like, you look at the way that Cleveland has built its roster. Cleveland's amazing. They've done an incredible job with Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. I think Darius is incredible basketball. I think that guy is unbelievably good. His touch is insane. He has all of these remarkable gifts. I am like, not totally convinced yet that you can win a title with Darius Garland on the court.
- [43:52]
Ryan Rosillo
Because the second round would be nice, right?
- [43:55]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah. Like, the defense makes it really hard and they're not structured super well in order to be able to mitigate his defense. But I think that that's part of the issue when you have a small guard like this, like a Trey Young in Atlanta, and Atlanta obviously made a deep run to the conference finals over the Philadelphia team where Ben Simmons, you know, passed up the layup or whatever. But Trey Young, like, they've had to specifically go out and find all of these wings. Dyson Daniels, Zachary Risa, Shea, Jalen Johnson, they're like, you know, probably gonna have to go out and get, like, a super massive center. Like, I think they should be trying to make trade up and get Common Moloch using their picks this year. Right. Like, they. You box yourself in in such a significant way whenever your primary player who drives most of your offense is a smaller guy that you're building around. And I think it limits your optionality as you go to build a roster moving forward. And for me, with a rebuilding team like Utah, I've absolutely heard that, like, he is in the mix for Utah. I think that would. Is a thing that could happen. Right. That, you know, I'm not saying that he's going to Utah. I'm saying, like, definitely in the mix. At least you're building a roster essentially around him, like Kyle Phillipowski. I don't know how you would rank their, like, young players, but it's. It's hard.
- [45:24]
Ryan Rosillo
Taylor's my favorite, and he's hurt. So.
- [45:27]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, like, it's. I think it's like, Taylor, it's Philipowski. You know, Collier was okay down the stretch this year.
- [45:34]
Ryan Rosillo
I think Collier's a backup, but I.
- [45:37]
Sam Vecenie
Think so too, to be honest.
- [45:38]
Ryan Rosillo
But, I mean, that's another name.
- [45:40]
Sam Vecenie
Maybe Cody Williams.
- [45:42]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't. I didn't really love Cody coming out, to be honest with you.
- [45:45]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah.
- [45:46]
Ryan Rosillo
And a lot of that's just because he's physically overwhelmed at this point. So. Yeah, you know, physically, he's totally. But he. He felt a bit like, hey, this worked in high school guy. Even when I watched him in Colorado, and it was like, yeah, it's not even working here. But you understand. I mean, you understand why somebody like that is taking that high. I guess when you talk about Utah and their desperate need for somebody who's like, does this. Does the ceiling on this potential pick hit the profile of star ability and with fears? Who is that special with the ball in his hands? Getting past with the ball.
- [46:17]
Steve Pikiell
Yeah.
- [46:18]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah.
- [46:18]
Ryan Rosillo
And I actually would argue there's some passing in there. Even though I think he led the SEC in turnovers. I mean, we're talking about a small guard who led the SEC in turnovers and shot 28% from three. So it's like, what are you guys doing? There's some passing in there that I do think like gets you excited that he's not just a driver who forgets that there's still some options around him.
- [46:40]
Sam Vecenie
I, I felt like his passing was really impressive in moments. Like there were flashes, but I felt like a lot of it wasn't like super anticipatory where like he felt like, okay, I'm going to go here. The help defense is going to come here. Like the, you know, the roll man's going to tag my roller, the weak side, you know, low man. And I'm going to be able to shoot it out to the corner, right? Like I thought a lot of it was like dump offs. I thought a lot of it was like he'd get in the air and then try to like figure it out on the fly a little bit. And he's capable of that physically because he is so, you know, gifted in terms of body control and everything. But I don't know. Like, he also shot 44. Like we talked about VJ's finishing, right? Like he shot 44 and a half percent at the rim and half court settings. VJ was 49 in half court settings at the rim. So like even substantially worse than BJ at the basket this season. So I think he has a mid range game. Like I think he has like a little floater. I think he has the ability to pull up from the mid range. But we're talking about a guy that is among the worst finishers statistically in the Class who shot 28% from three, who turns the ball over a lot. And I totally get the gifts with the ball in his hand. I think that that's very real and I think that you're 100% right. And frankly, I would expect that Jeremiah Fears averages 20 points per game at some point. It's just not a player that I think is wildly valuable in today's NBA. And that's before, that's, you know, not before we get to the defense. It's inclusive of the defense.
- [48:14]
Ryan Rosillo
We don't need to.
- [48:15]
Sam Vecenie
Where I think he's, he's like maybe the worst defender in the class. Like I actually think that he was consistently over helping. He would show like moments of high energy, but I didn't think the efforts getting through ball screens were all that consistent defensively. Like he wouldn't give second and third efforts. Like he'd die on the vine and that's really hard to deal with. You basically have to peel, switch then. And then you create mismatches. Like, there's kind of just no margin for error on players like this. Like with Casper's Yakosonas, who I have at seven, right. And I think most people would have fears ahead of him. There's a lot of margin for error with him. Like, if he doesn't work on the ball because he can't separate, I think he's going to shoot it at a pretty real level. I think that he can drive and make all sorts of passing reads because I think he's a better passer than fears. He's bigger than fears. So, like, you can maybe hide him a little bit defensively. There's just more margin for error with him. Whereas with fears, he basically has to hit like the 90th percentile of his outcome or else he's probably a sixth man. But if he hits the 90th percentile, he's probably going to make an all star team.
- [49:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, it is, it is that impressive, man. When he starts working guys, like I saw 2 try to like close him off and blitz him off a screen and he still turns the corner on two guys and you just go, yeah. There's just not many people that can do this kind of stuff. But I understand your argument, your arguments. Like, even if he's pretty good and has his production, like we Talked about a 30% usage guy's second year in the league, and then we're still losing a ton of games and then what are we doing? We're re signing him because he has all these counting stats and are we kind of derailing ourself even if we have a talented guard? I love that you brought up Yakushonas, because I'll tell you, like, you know, when I first started doing the work, it was kind of funny because denim I loved at first because I was like, man, he's so big and it's his pace and it's like he almost.
- [50:11]
Sam Vecenie
Felt like Ryan in November. I thought, like, real chance that Jaeger was going to like, challenge Dylan Harper for like the number two pick. I was like, this is. This is happening. Like, we're ready, we're here, we're moving to Russia. We're going to do all the intel. Let's go. And like now it just didn't happen.
- [50:29]
Ryan Rosillo
Not only does he miss, I called his misses violent misses. And he had something where I looked at his guarded, unguarded. He found a way to take like over 80% of his shots against contested. Like, he Found I don't know that I see that split very often, but 80% of his attempts were guarded versus unguarded. And he just, despite his passing and his size and there's a smoothness to his game that in short burst you fall in love with to your point, earlier in the year. And then you're like, why the hell is he getting the switch at the big? And then he's almost like waiting until the big has enough time to come out and contest. Like, oh, he must not want to shoot. Oh, wait, he's going to shoot. And then it's like, I have no idea if that. Nope. Then somebody may need to check and see if the rim is still level. So whereas I'm watching him and going like, all right, you got to give up. You got to give up. Like, don't tell anybody you like him. All right, don't tell anybody you like him. Yakoshonas sure, I'd like to see the shot go in a little bit more. But what I love the most about him is we've talked about some of these smaller players finishing. They're smaller players who I'll see drive and go, oh, that didn't work with him. I'll think, where's this going? And yet he finds a way to kind of throughout the weeds and all the size and all the traffic. I don't want to compare it to Nash, but there's a really advanced way of him realizing all the extra stuff that he'll need to do to get some of these shots off. And you'll see defenders, it's almost like a quarterback where he's getting defenders to move away from passing lanes with his eyes or there's a dribble that he'll set up defenders where they jump out to do something else. And it's not some sick, nasty crossover from like a Nike commercial. It's just really simple, efficient reading of everything that's going on around him. You're on the higher range for that. But there's just a lot to feel good about because of all the different things it looks like he's going to excel with.
- [52:22]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, no, I completely agree. Like, he made 61.6% of his shots at the rim and half court settings this year. Just about all of those are self created. Like, he's not a great cutter necessarily, but, you know, these are exactly what you're saying. Like, he'll just manipulate dudes with his eyes constantly. Like, he'll make it look like because he is such a good passer, you have to Be cognizant of. Okay. Like, if he's going to move me this way with his eyes, I kind of have to pay attention to that if I'm a help defender. Right?
- [52:48]
Ryan Rosillo
I saw help defenders. Sorry to interrupt. Like, I'd see help defenders in something real simple where it's the big just diving through the paint and he would get the help defender to, like, close out on a wing shooter. And he was like, great. Exactly what I wanted. And then it's. The guy is wide open and you're like, how does this keep happening? Then finally you figure it out. Like, he's just that good at manipulating stuff.
- [53:07]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, no, he really is. He truly is. Like, he made shots with both his right and his left hand around the rim this year. And again, like, what makes him special to me is the passing. Like, just not only the cre. Like, the super creative ones, right? Where he'll hit, like, a cross corner kick out with, like, his left hand off of a live dribble, and you'll be like, what the fuck? What is this? Right? Like, it's the simple ones, the way that he holds a defender in a ball screen so that the big goes with him for one more step, and then he'll just hit the little wraparound with his left to V sits for, like, a pick and pop. It'll create that extra bit of separation for a V sit to be able to get the wide open pick and pop, right? It's the simple moves in addition to the, like, wildly creative highlights that he'll throw out there, too. And I agree with you, I want the shot to fall more, but, I mean, another guy that just takes a ton of contested shots because early on in the year, they didn't have anybody who could create. By the end of the year, Will Riley, I think, was able to take on some of that load, and it was pretty valuable. The other thing that, you know, you bring up now that I'm thinking about this a little bit more, I'm going to have to ask Illinois staff if they teach this, because I think that both Yakoshonas and Will Riley, what they do that Jager Demon doesn't do, right, is they go direct lines toward the rim, right? Will Riley is 170 pounds or whatever. He played 175 pounds probably at Illinois this year. He is going directly into a dude's chest every single time. Like, there's no. I'm going to, like, fade away and, like, take a little shot with my right hand. Like, none of the Jalen Greeny kind Of stuff that I think of immediate NBA player that comes to my head when I think of this. He's going in straight lines to the basket, Euro stepping and trying to find the quickest way to get all the way to the rim. And I think Yakosonas does some of that too. Fears another guy that like will lean away. Demon, a guy that will like lean away from the contact. These guys kind of go into the contact and I'll have to ask if that's something that Illinois like identifies in prospects or if it's like something they're teaching. Basically, now that I think about it.
- [55:09]
Ryan Rosillo
The Will Riley improvement was really nice. You know, his teammates projected to be a first rounder. Highest ranked prospect for Illinois since D. Brown, number one prospect out of Canada. I didn't like it for long stretches of the season where I was like, I just need to see a little bit more. And maybe it's the profile and all these expectations. It was a good team. But it was funny because then I thought like, well, Will has to play off all this stuff. Even though he was fourth in minutes, he was first in total field goal attempts. And I was surprised when I saw that. I was like, he actually took the most shots anybody out there. But his awareness developing into okay, you know, it looks like the ball is stuck here. Cut, just cut, you know, off ball cutting. It's. It's not that hard if you have the effort to want to do it. There's a bunch of free points out there waiting for you. And he was great. He was incredible in the second half of that Xavier game. Speaking of going into people's chests, you have Danny Wolfe, Michigan 14th, maybe the most interesting prospect there is. He's another guy that you could say, I wish the shot went in a little bit more. I just hope whoever drafts him just lets him run with the second unit, lets him be a seven foot point guard. He leads the Big Ten in rebounding. If he has you at the rim, you're probably dead. The handle is real and he doesn't even have to be that quick. Not to compare him to Luca, but staying on this contact thing, you know, it's one of the things I think with ant Anthony Edwards is that he's so dynamic he can play away to contact. If he played towards contact, he would be a more efficient player. Luka plays into contact, then controls the defender. I'm not saying Danny Wolf is Luka, but he controls the defender with his body and a handle. That doesn't make any. He has one of the weirdest collection of attributes of any player in this class. And I like him. I just wish the shot went in. And the free throw shooting thing is really, really weird that he's at 59%, but I know he was like 71 at Yale for two years. So that just, I. That appears to be just a weird year.
- [56:56]
Sam Vecenie
Just a fascinating frame as well. Like, you look at him and you ex. You expect like this like stiff white dude who like grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and all that stuff. And it's just like, no, like, not even remotely close to that. Like, he's pretty athletic and is very fluid and coordinated. I think he has like a really low center of gravity for a seven footer. Or he might be like six, 11 or whatever without shoes. But like, I think he has a lower center of gravity for a seven footer and it allows him to play with like a little bit more bend and kind of get like his pad level lower than the other guy's pad level. You know, use a football term, right? Like leverage matters in the NBA just as much as it matters in the NFL. Maybe not just as much, but certainly, you know, close to as much as it matters in the NFL or in the NFL. And like, I think that his ability to like, play with the ball is in part because he's so flexible and can play with bend in that way. So, you know, very creative mindset. Grew up as a guard, he's like a late growth spurt kid, unsurprisingly, you know, grew up as a point guard and you can see it in the way that he sees the floor, like his passing ability. I mean, what are we doing? Like, he'll throw some of the most, like insane, ridiculous looks that you'll find. He uses his height to his advantage as a passer really well. I think, like, he just knows that he can see over the top of the defense. He was great throwing like these little duck ins to Vlad golden this year. Another kid that might get drafted. Seven footer from Russia. Like they ran a ton of high, low stuff with him and golden, like, just like showmanship and like he'll throw like these crazy tight window passes where you just can't believe that he saw it. And frankly, he shouldn't have thrown it because they probably only get there 50% of the time, which is why he turned the ball over a ton this year. But you know, fuck, man, like, I love it. Like, I think I would rather moderate the creativity than have to teach somebody how to be creative. You know what I mean?
- [58:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, he's he's that unique. And it's just really, I look, if you're drafting Danny Wolf, then it means you already like all of these things. So I don't think it's going to be a situation where it's like, hey, we want to, we're going to stick you in the corner.
- [59:03]
Sam Vecenie
It's like, well, yeah, totally. And I'll say this too, Ryan, like he, he is really shot it well in pre draft workouts. I'll say that I got told from one team like he broke a record in their building for their three point shooting drill. And if you would have told me that coming into the pre draft process, I'd have laughed you out of the room, basically. That seems completely insane to me. But I also talked to a bunch of people that were there in Chicago and they were like one of the most impressive shooting workouts we saw was Danny Wolf in Chicago. So it's a funky release, it looks weird. It's like a super left line shot where he brings it across his body kind of. But I think he has clear touch. Like, I think there's a lot there. And I'm obsessed with like spacing bigs. I think basically they're really hard to find. But all of the teams that are competing at the top of the NBA right now have these five outlooks in some respect. I think it's basically a necessity to at least have a five out look right now. It doesn't have to be your primary option, but it certainly has to at least be something you can counter to. And Danny Wolfe I think certainly gives you the ability to counter to that 5 outlook.
- [60:11]
Ryan Rosillo
All right, I'm going to ask you one more question about a specific player. Then I'm going to try to go a little quicker with some rapid fire stuff for you if you're ready. Okay. So I, I mentioned I saw your Kipple ranking because somebody else sent it to me. And until I get done with whatever I need to do, which never feels like it's enough, I don't want to look at too much your stuff.
- [60:28]
Sam Vecenie
I love how you're like, oh yeah, like I haven't done enough. Like I've been talking to you for like two and a half weeks. Like you've been like grinding tape for two and a half weeks. Like you're just like. And I'm sure you've been doing a lot before that. You do more for this than most people do, to be clear.
- [60:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay. But it's so not even close to how I used to do It Because I was on every day. I was anchoring the combine. By the time the combine started, I already had 60, 70. I was on it. And now I'll show up to the combine being like, I have a ton of work to do. Look, it's just the way it is. I appreciate you saying that, but I.
- [61:01]
Sam Vecenie
There's, like, literally things that you've brought up to me that I haven't heard from NBA people throughout the year, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. You know what I mean? Like, maybe I'm a genius. You're as hard on yourself with this as you've been, like, throughout the last three weeks that I've been talking to you about it. I'm just like, what are. What are we doing, Ryan? I know.
- [61:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, look, you read your guide and you go, I'm not ready. So I looked. Well, this is. I saw the Kipple stuff, and then I was like, I don't want to look at any more of this until I've done a little bit more. So I started digging through. I was like, let me just go through a bunch of the later guys. And I turn on a little Cedric Coward from Washington State. And I'm watching it going, why? Like, how come I don't really ever hear about this guy from anybody? I text Sam. I go, hey, do you like Howard? You're like, yeah, I have him ninth. So I'm like, oh, okay. Then this guy. Now, the competition isn't great. He had the shoulder injury. I think he only played in six games this year. I asked another team about him, and they were like, look, he's really good, but it's just kind of hard. He's older. He's been at three schools because he started what a dude. Two, and then D3. D3, D3. Then Eastern Washington. I know it's only the six games, and there's some kid from northern Colorado being like, you know, I'm thinking about getting into insurance after having to try to defend him. He is a man, and he looks like he can get wherever he needs to go. I, I, I'm so impressed with this guy. Probably a little too impressed, only because I haven't heard much about him.
- [62:27]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah. So, like, he was. He grew up, like, in the, like, Fresno area, right. And didn't have any D1 offers. Went to D3 Willamette and got, you know, plugged in there and played super, super well. Somehow. He was like, all city or whatever in Fresno. Like, he was fine, but no D1 offers. Basically gets recruited To Eastern Washington because David Riley, his coach at Eastern Washington and his coach at Washington State because he got the Washington State job last year. He played in the conference where Willamette is. So one of the coaches reached out to him and was like, hey, take a look at this kid. He's really interesting. And Riley was like, yeah, like, let's do this. This is amazing. Like, this kid's awesome. So that's how he got, like, found. And he goes really good at Eastern Washington. The first year, blows up the second year. Shoots 57, 38, 90, averaging 15, 7, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, like a block and a steal per game. One of the best players in the Big Sky. You talk to, like, scouts that were out there that saw, like, Dylan Jones and guys like that, they were like, yeah, this kid's way better. So I had Coward in the top 35 to start the year. I was like, okay, this is a dude, right? I'm very interested. Dominates the first six games, averaging 17, 7 and 4. He's clearly taking a leap. Two blocks a game, one steal a game, shooting 56, 40, 84 in the first six games. Dominating Dom.
- [64:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, everything is going. And it's like, all right, you know what? I'm sick of you. I'm going to take you and I'm going to just. Yeah, I'm going to beat you up. And look, I mean, are we getting too carried away based on the competition? Like, I watched the Iowa game. I mean, I was. He didn't have a very good shooter. Right? Right.
- [64:16]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah.
- [64:16]
Ryan Rosillo
But when it's nice, like, it's physical, it's crisp. The way he gets up into a shot, you're like, this guy looks like he's throwing 30.
- [64:24]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah. So I went. It's funny. So I came to the US In April, went to Hoop Summit, saw bring your employee Kyle man there. We recorded a podcast shout out. I said, kyle asked me, you know, who's the guy that you think, like, is way underrated? I said, like, I'll give you two. So Murray Boyles is one. Like, he's just polarizing. He's all over the map. Second guy says, you're coward. Like, I'm telling you, like, when people see this kid, they're going to be like, oh, this is definitely a first rounder. There's no way he's going to end up at Duke. And then I went and saw him work out, and I saw him work out in LA the next week, and I was like, oh, this, this is. This isn't just going in the first round, like, he's going definitely in the top 20 at least. So, like, I called a few teams and I was like, hey, like, maybe. Maybe go check out what's going on in LA right now. You know what I mean? Maybe go see what's happening. And I. It was one of those things where it's just, like, incredibly obvious. Like, he's on a court with. And I love Nick Clifford. I think Nick Clifford's like a real basketball player. I think he's going to play in the NBA. And it was just like, oh, this looks totally different. You know what I mean? It's one of those guys where he's six five with a seven two wingspan. You meet him, his shoulders are massive. So, like, he's skinny. He's like 215 pounds or whatever, but you can see he's going to put on, like, 20 more pounds or 15 more pounds of, like, really good weight. And then you watch it all play out on the court. A lot of the times, those guys who are 65 with, like, crazy long arms, right? They're kind of awkward. They look funky. He has, like, a lower center of gravity for somebody that has these, like, long arms, right? Like, common Moloch has really long arms, but has, like, long limbs, too. He has, like, a high center of gravity. His legs are really long. It's just harder for those guys to be able to, like, continue continuously anchor their position, right? Coward is super long with low center of gravity. Kind of like Jalen Williams for Oklahoma State City. And everything just looks kinetically, like. Like it's poetry, right? It's all smooth. Like, it all comes up. There's no hitches. There's no awkwardness in anything he does. He does everything, like, in the most efficient number of steps possible, right? And look, I don't know what the upside is. Like, I'm not going to sit here and try to make the case that Cedric Howard is the next Jalen Williams. I think that Cedric Howard, I think Jalen Williams had way more of a creative handle coming out of Santa Clara. I think that you could easily see, you know, if this worked, it was going to go really, really well with Jalen Williams. With Cedric, like, I think he's probably more of a wing. Whereas, like, J Dub can play guard and, like, can really create. Like, I think he's more of a wing. He is somebody that, like, uses the threat of his shot really well, who uses shoulder and, like, bump you and guys move back and he'll be able to, like, just shoot up over the top. Of you. Whenever he gets that little bit of separation, he has amazing touch, I think. Like, I completely buy the shot. And he is a willing defender. He's not, like, the most athletic dude in the world, but he cares defensively and he knows where he's supposed to be. He's an awesome kid. Like, I asked him straight up, like, so, like, how did you. Like, what. What happened? Like, how did you get lost in the shuffle? Right, right. And he was just like, honestly, I was not very good when I was in high school. Like, he was straight up. He's like, I wasn't good enough. And so I went to Willamette and I got better, and I worked like crazy. And I just continue to work like crazy. And everyone talks to you, says, he's a crazy worker. Like, really good kid. Like, all super, super positive kid. And it's, like, the easiest sell to me to be like, all right, I'm in. Like, I know that he played six games this year, but, yeah, I'll take. I'll take the bet in this class that he's going to be really good.
- [68:03]
Ryan Rosillo
And then just out of nowhere when he's like. I don't know if annoyed is the right way to describe it, but you could see possessions with him. He'd be like, all right, enough of this. Yeah, in, like, a really aggressive, mature way. And then again, a lot of these guys are overwhelmed against him. But he worked this poor kid in the post, and I think he knew he could have taken a shot, like, three different times. It was like, no, I'm just going to put you in the blender, like, one more time. And it's like, oh. So the guy also has, like, low block post moves that he can get into. Like, this is stupid. All right, rapid fire. Seven, eight minutes as we finish up here. You know my tastes. Who do you think that's a top 20 pick that I've watched that I just can't stand.
- [68:40]
Sam Vecenie
Who do I think you don't like? I would guess that you. I mean, I would guess that you don't really like Ace, to be honest. That'd probably be the one.
- [68:52]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. But at least I. I understand.
- [68:55]
Sam Vecenie
You understand it.
- [68:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [68:57]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah. I would guess you don't love McNeely and you don't love Essen Gay.
- [69:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Essen Gay. Like, without question. Now you want to tell me he's the youngest dude and he's 6, 10, and he projects his, like, this small forward. His fascination with falling down every fucking time is like, NBA ready. And by the way, this is a you thing.
- [69:20]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah.
- [69:21]
Ryan Rosillo
And Bundesliga, like they call everything in that league.
- [69:25]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah.
- [69:25]
Ryan Rosillo
I watched a bunch of games this week. I would give him this. I don't know who. I had to double check that it wasn't logged wrong because the Berlin game, he looked like a completely different guy. His energy was incredible. He was more active. And so then I was like, well, does this mean. Because I went in reverse order, I was like, was this kid just spent. They're still playing, by the way. So he hasn't been able to work out for anyone. I saw him going 90 today to Toronto on ESPN and I went, look, maybe I'll be wrong. Because it looks like he can shoot it a little and he's huge. Although his chest has a weird shape that I don't necessarily love. But his commitment to taking these horseshit shots and then getting the calls that he's already thinking the game that way, to me, gets in the way of your development. It's like you're getting. You're getting to see the answers and like, you're. I don't know. I'd say you're never going to get those calls in the NBA. But there's clearly a handful of guys that I can't stand to get all those things. I didn't enjoy it, so great.
- [70:32]
Sam Vecenie
Guess so. I think I guessed like half the draft, by the way, but whatever. So 20, 25% from 3, 72% from the line. I think he has touch, but I think the shot mechanics are like a total rewrite, basically. Super narrow base, like hitchy kind of at the top. I think it's going to take some real time with the shot. A very thin, super high center of gravity. The thing that I, you know, I know you want to go rapid fire here, but the thing I will just note, for people that are watching sng, the German league is not great. Like, people, I think look at the German league is like the public at large because it's just far away. They don't watch it, whatever. They look at the German league and they're like, oh, I'm sure it's the same as France. I'm sure it's the same as, you know, Spain, whatever. Yeah. The Spanish league among domestic leagues, not Euroleague, anything like that. Spanish league is the best of them, I would say, you know, France is a level above Germany for sure. Germany is also, like, not the most athletic league either, because, like, you know, just a lot of the domestic guys in Germany aren't wild athletes necessarily. It's not a bad league. I'm just saying. Like, if you look at somebody's like French league numbers like Risso last year and you look at Essing, like, you probably do need to ding the S and gay numbers a little bit more than what is happening. I'm with you. Like, I'm not a massive fan. I get the appeal. I have them like in the top 20 range, but I don't see them as a, you know, is the upside best that people do.
- [72:02]
Ryan Rosillo
I get the appeal because of the youth and the size and I think the numbers. It felt like he shot it better. I don't know what the splits were. It felt like it was going in more. Shot selection is obviously a massive problem, but some of the shot decisions, getting into it and you're like, what the hell is this going to be? And I think it has way more to do. I'm being really negative here, but it had way more to do with me seeing him go ninth ahead of some of these players where if I were in the room with the staff going, hey, I get what we're all doing here. We're looking for upside. Speaking of this, all right, you're working for the Bulls, you're working for their front office. Derek Queen is on the board.
- [72:36]
Sam Vecenie
I'm looking for a new job.
- [72:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Ouch. Would you be arguing for against Derrick Queen?
- [72:43]
Sam Vecenie
Four.
- [72:44]
Ryan Rosillo
All right. I like it.
- [72:46]
Sam Vecenie
I think Derrick Queen's just kind of an ass kicker. I think he has like these real athletic traits that don't get measured by combine testing or whatever. He's super balanced, super coordinated. I don't really know that he's ever going to shoot it. Like, I'm actually a little bit worried about that with him, but he's just one of those dudes that grew up in Baltimore and grew up playing against dudes that are older than him and just understands how to play 5 on 5 basketball. I think it's such an elite level. I think he's just always going to be productive. And the bigger thing for the Bulls for me is the one thing I've heard about them is, look, they're all over the place. Nobody knows what they're going to do at the end of the day in terms of who they're going to pick. But the one consistent thing that I've gotten is they want somebody that fits their style of play that they played last year. Right.
- [73:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Just absolute pace towards the end. Yeah, right.
- [73:33]
Sam Vecenie
Super up tempo, high, high tempo, high pace. Josh giddy like spraying guys out for three point shoot like shots and everything like that. I think Queen really fits that Like, I think that his ability to grab and go on the break, like, you would have five guys basically on the court that could grab and go on the break and be able to create in that way, and it would be a good fit for what they're trying to build. We can talk about the efficacy of what they're trying to build, but I think that given what they're trying to build, if I was in the room, I would say, yes. Derek Queen makes a lot of sense to me there.
- [74:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Which team do you trust right now as a front office the most? You can't say Oklahoma City.
- [74:11]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, I mean, that's the answer. But, I mean, it's funny. Like, I think Memphis front office does a really good job. Like, I think that, like, oh, man. Yeah, Oklahoma City is the answer, Ryan. But, like, I think Houston does a good job. Honestly, like, I think they've done, like, a really good job the last couple years, man. Absolutely agree. I think Tim Connolly does a really good job in Minnesota. Like, Matt Lloyd's a really great evaluator there. Their general manager, you know, Connolly, I think, really understands, you know, windows and Understands what.
- [74:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Lloyd's great, but he's a little annoying. I'm just kidding. I've known him a long time, but he doesn't tell me anything good. So I just. I had to say that he's a great dude. He's a great dude.
- [74:56]
Sam Vecenie
He's a great dude.
- [74:56]
Ryan Rosillo
He's one of my favorites. But again, he doesn't tell me anything. Just in case a rod's listening.
- [75:02]
Sam Vecenie
Say, I think Boston does a really good job. Honestly, I'm fascinated to see what they do to get below the second apron now and, like, try and retool on the fly. I think that Brad Stevens and those guys there just are really creative and how they go about it. That's probably the group right now. My missing one, like, just kind of off the top of my head.
- [75:22]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, look, there's. There's probably. We could just start naming GMs we, like. But you know.
- [75:27]
Sam Vecenie
You know what, though? Indiana. Indiana's, like, a real answer here, I think. I mean, they've gotten, like, very few things wrong over the last couple of years, and to build the team the way that they have. Cashing in the Sabonis asset to go get your, like, superstar, and then cashing in draft picks to go get Siakam, who was, like, not really a distressed asset, but not a guy that teams were clearly willing to pay, like, a crazy amount for, given that they got him for the Price that they got him the way that even just this week they do the trade for number 23 to get their 2026 pick back. Yeah, I thought that was really smart.
- [76:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Nobody even paid attention to it because I then I saw it and I went, that's actually really smart. I mean, I guess you could argue the other way. Like, hey, they're going to be even better than the pick is further back, but people like next year's draft better than this draft, so.
- [76:17]
Sam Vecenie
Well, to me, it's more that now they have four picks to trade again. Before, they only had three first rounders to trade. Now they have four. Like, they can really go out and be in the trade marketplace if they want to as well. So they have more flexibility. I think they get all the moves, all the big moves. Right. And I think that they do a really good job on the margins. The draft picks have been so, so outside of Nemhard, obviously, but, you know, even targeting Aaron Neesmith for the Malcolm Brogdon deal, right. With Boston, like, that was a huge, huge win for them.
- [76:44]
Ryan Rosillo
I like the Mathurin pick, and Jairus Walker just doesn't even have the minutes to figure out if he's going to be as high as they took him. Okay, last things here. Best. What do you think? Give me the rumor. I, you know, I know you can't share anything. Give me the rumor you think makes sense. The draft night. Yeah, the draft night rumor. That makes sense. Or you could give us the worst rumor that you've heard, because those are always entertaining.
- [77:10]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah. Let me. So, like, Charlotte liking vj, I think makes the most sense. There's a real sense that Charlotte really likes Vijay Edgecombe and wants to, you know, potentially end draft night with him if they can. Right. We'll see if Philadelphia takes him. But, yeah, I think that that makes a ton of sense. He's like the. He's a super high character kid, super high effort kid. Would be perfect in between Lamelo and Brandon Miller would be able to play up tempo with Lamelo in transition, would be able to defend and take on really tough assignments away from Lamelo, which God knows what he needs. Right. Like, I think that that duo in that, like, trio really along the perimeter makes a lot of sense for them if they're trying to build this thing in the way that they're building it around Lamello right now. In theory, but we'll see. I think that's the one that I really love.
- [78:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Last thing, because I just want to say his name. He's not the Most talented. I'm not saying he's going to be the best player because we know he's probably going in the 20s. But is Nate Clifford the best all around basketball player today?
- [78:15]
Sam Vecenie
Cooper.
- [78:16]
Ryan Rosillo
All right, Cooper. Yeah. I mean, it was. That was. That was a tease for a radio show, but I tried.
- [78:23]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, like, look, I would say it's Cooper, but like, I like Nick. The thing with Nick that teams worry about is the shotgun to translate is he has to like speed it up a little bit and kind of, you know, figure it out. The frame. He's like kind of skinny as well. I have him like in the 20s, but I think Nick's really good. I don't disagree with you. The guy that. The thing I wanted to ask you, and maybe that was the answer, right, is who's the guy that's like outside of the top 20 that you found yourself really liking?
- [78:53]
Ryan Rosillo
You know, I probably like Liam more than others just because I feel like he played out of position and I just have a hard time believing that that's who he is as a shooter. I know ASA because he's coming from montverg. You know, there's the high profile with that, just bomb squad of dudes. Some teams really don't like him. And I understand because offensively, other than that left handed kind of hook, push shot, like, what is there? But I also think that he steps into games and just he's. He's big for a big guy. He plays big. I actually really appreciated what he did in that Gonzaga game. George is getting their asses handed to him before they're even breaking a sweat. And he fought the whole time. So if a team goes, hey, look, this guy's never going to be somebody we're doing anything for offensively. But if he can play with this kind of energy and if he's this kind of competitor, the competitive stuff is a really big deal for me personally, because it just shows me that when things are going to be really hard and by the way, like ace, they're going to be really hard for you because offensively, like, I know you want to take some threes in college, we're never going to let you take that shot. You're going to have to go in there, rebound and make rebounding difficult for the other team and maybe it gets a tip backs. And because he's so young and he was the big recruiting profile, I think some teams are disappointed off of that. But I still would be a little surprised to not see him go in the first round.
- [80:05]
Sam Vecenie
I think he'll go in the first. I mean, look like I've heard as high as, like, 12, honestly. So, like, you know, I think it's just very wide for him. I think he brought up the idea of him being polarizing. He is very polarizing, you know, and I'll.
- [80:18]
Ryan Rosillo
I'll say, too, like, I think Sorber has something. Yeah, yeah, I agree. He looks like a center who, you know, you can get on his ass a little bit of, like, you know, sometimes we want every one of these guys that's going to be challenging shots in the rim. We all want him to be like, peak Clint Capella, which he's certainly not going to be that. But there's some stuff that I noticed with him. I'm like, there's way more body control. Like, he had a slip screen in a role where he reverses it against Seton Hall. And I went, okay. Like, this is. This is something a lot of dudes like him at this size can't do. He saved a ball once where it was all instinctive, and he got his feet down like a receiver and then threw it and saved it. And I know the team wasn't very good, but I know everybody, you know, ideally wants these rim protection stretch fives that shoot all these threes. That's why Przingis is going to keep getting paid even after this contract. But I like Sorber probably more than. Than other teams, but I. I really enjoyed, like, I just liked watching him, even though there was limitations clearly to who he is offensively right now.
- [81:21]
Sam Vecenie
Yeah, no, I'm top 15. I'm a Sorber guy. I believe in it. Good touch around the rim, you know, really good in ball screens, can short roll, can roll all the way to the rim, can pass it at a high level, uses his frame well on defense. I believe in it. Yeah, Sam.
- [81:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Where can everybody see all of your tremendous work?
- [81:39]
Sam Vecenie
Go to the Athletic. The draft guide is up there. I'll have a mock draft early next week as well. I also did a thing today, as we're recording, where I went back and ranked all of my top 20 prospects. I've been doing this for a decade now, Ryan, which is insane to me on some level. So I went back and ranked the top 20 prospects I gave the highest grades to of the decade and basically called myself a jackass for, like, you know, having deandre Ayton, like, at number nine on this thing. Like, what the fuck was I doing? So that finals run, man, that was really. It was really fun. I had a great time with it right so go read that and then go to the Game Theory podcast over on YouTube, Spotify, you know, wherever you get podcasting platforms.
- [82:21]
Ryan Rosillo
Enjoy the next week, man. You deserve a break after it. And I always appreciate this time. It was a blast.
- [82:26]
Sam Vecenie
I am, I am excited to get a break. I will say that.
- [82:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Samcini.
- [82:34]
Sam Vecenie
This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card.
- [82:36]
Ryan Rosillo
If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel.
- [82:46]
Sam Vecenie
For my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about.
- [82:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your.
- [82:58]
Sam Vecenie
Summer travels, apply in the Wallet app.
- [83:00]
Ryan Rosillo
On your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank.
- [83:06]
Sam Vecenie
USA Salt Lake City Branch.
- [83:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Terms and more@applecard.com we'll continue our coverage here at draft week and fire it up. For a guy with a lot of Connecticut roots, I get some questions on UConn for him. He's a Rutgers head coach. Steve B. Thanks for doing this. How are you?
- [83:32]
Steve Pikiell
I'm terrific. It's good to be on. I appreciate you always good to the Connecticut guy.
- [83:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, no, it's cool man. I want to, I want to get to some of that stuff and remembering you being part of the turnaround in stores. But now as a coach, a big time program here and you have two lottery picks, what's this pre drive process been for you?
- [83:52]
Steve Pikiell
Like I will tell you first of all, when you have two lottery picks, they're in college way too short of a time now and it felt like they just arrived on campus. And you know, I remember the days that UConn, you know, Ray Allen stayed three years, you know, like, you know I would love these guys two more years. I would be a lot better coach. But you know, it's been exciting. It really has. It's since the day they committed but too short. I mean it just went so fast and I think they grew a lot, they learned a lot. But you know, seven months, like seven months is a quick, quick period of time. But they're on to bigger and better things and, and, and, and these two guys are young too. They're going to be like terrific. You know, the things that they can do as 18 year olds. I mean, Ace will not turn 19 until August. I mean, just the talent and the work and. And then Dylan Harp, who comes from a great basketball family and is a great kid and, you know, his basketball's best. Basketball's ahead of him, too. So where these guys can be in a few years when, you know, they get to, they get to those ages and their bodies catch up to them and everything could be special.
- [85:03]
Ryan Rosillo
I know this is probably kind of silly because, you know, you're coaching, you're trying to win Big Ten games, you're trying to qualify for all the stuff, you know, over the course of 30 games, but how often were there moments where you would see something from one of these two guys where you just want to look at your assistants going, I can't believe how talented these two kids are.
- [85:22]
Steve Pikiell
You know, it's just, it would be every day in practice, like, you would just see something that just, you know, Ace would, like, drive baseline and wrap his arms, you know, around the backboard and dunk the ball in like a split second. And you just say, well, you know, regular guys just don't do that. But he kind of made the regular, you know, the impossible look easy. And then Dylan just kind of a different, like, could get downhill and finish at the rim. Left hand. He's left handed, but with his right hand or left hand and avoid shot blockers. Just an unbelievable, you know, knack for that. But, you know, during the course of the season, they really didn't. Dylan was hurt, you know, for the month of January, high ankle sprain. Ace was hurt early on in the season. For the both of them together, they never really, you know, got to play a lot together when they were, you know, in a good place. One was either just coming off an injury or something like that. So it was kind of choppy in the short season, but they showed signs. And if you were at the Indiana game where, you know, Ace Bailey, like the most points ever scored by a freshman, and then they were guarding him with everybody. And I remember talking to Woody after the game and he's like, oh, my Lord, have mercy. What was that like? He couldn't stop him. No. No matter what. But some signs throughout the year, but they're great kids and they're good energy kids and they were good teammates. And, you know, they're going to be really good in the pros and they're going to be great teammates in the pros. And they went through obstacles. You know, I said that to him, you know, you're not going to probably be drafted by, you know, OKC or the teams at the top. You know, usually the draft picks go to the teams that are going to have to fight through some obstacles and these kids had to do that this year and I think it'll bode well for the future for them.
- [87:13]
Ryan Rosillo
My favorite part about Dylan is when you watch him, you go, okay, well, it makes sense growing up in a basketball family that he would have all of these tricks downs and just, you know, you think about what this game is. A lot of times it's like, we need a bucket. All right, we're running a high ball screen here and it's up to you to figure out the best look out of that. And it had to be, you know, I know the frustrations of the season, but it, but it had to be something nice to kind of default to. Like I'd like our chances, I like our chances at a good look here with Dylan in control.
- [87:41]
Steve Pikiell
You know, it's a great thing as a coach and especially late game, like he had a knack for getting shots off and being able to create and he can create for other people too, but in traffic he's as good a ball handler. Like he didn't lose the ball. And when I'm talking, they would run guys at him from every angle. You know, teams would play him differently and run different players at him, you know, but, but a guy who's comfortable at the end of games, comfortable with the ball in his hands and really he would just figure out screen coverage. It was actually easy to watch film with them. You know, they're blitzing you, they're hard hedging you, they're in drops and that's all he would need to know. Okay, this is available, that's available. And he was big enough now to a finish at the rim or make plays at the rim for his teammates, you know, so he's got a real knack for it, you know, great DNA. His dad was one of the all time greats. And I tell you, Ronald, his brother is with the Detroit Pistons now and is one of the elite scorers. And you're going to see him really take off. They like him a lot in that organization and he's a really, really good scorer. He shoots the ball at a high, high level. So just great, great genes in that family. They got to have a couple more. We need a couple more Harpers here at Rutgers.
- [88:57]
Ryan Rosillo
When I would watch the games and like, look, I know they played a you together a little bit. I know that ace was kind of more on Dylan to come to Rutgers, you know, so you almost had an ally there in the recruiting, which definitely helps. We're talking about these guys at this level. And a still scores, what, 17, 18 points a game. But it felt like at times it was still a harder adjustment for him to be off of the ball. And. And I don't know if that's something. Maybe, you know, maybe you agree, maybe you disagree, but when you're this good, when you're this high level of a recruit, I imagine there's moments where you're like, I'm just. This is a little uncomfortable for me to be waiting on somebody else.
- [89:38]
Steve Pikiell
Yeah, I mean, I really think, you know, the difference. You know, Dylan had the ball in his hands, Ace had to learn four positions. So Ace really. When Dylan was out, Ace was bringing the ball up too, you know, and that's what I think is going to make him, you know, terrific at the NBA level. He'll. He'll eventually be a point guard, and he can make plays. And I hear some of the criticisms about, you know, his play that he needed to make for us was score points, which he did at a high, high level, you know, and so he can make passes. He's an elite, you know, get in the lane and create his own shot or pass. He's got tremendous size and length, you know, but he had to just learn more. So his learning curve was. Was different. And when, you know, Dylan missed a month of the season, like, Ace had to learn a new position type of deal. And we only played teams once in our league, too, Ryan. And I think, you know, we have an imbalanced schedule. We have 18 teams in the Big Ten. You only play teams once. So the challenges for young players, you know, to watch film and, hey, this is how, you know, Wisconsin guarded you, and then the next game, the team guarded them completely different. And by the way, we're never playing Wisconsin again, where you could take advantage of the film and how they played you. So, you know, a lot of challenges for these two guys that they managed through and that they learned a lot. And, you know, I think they got a ton out of their year here. Obviously, you know, we. We didn't get to the NCAA tournament. There's 18 teams in our league. Only eight go and 10 are pretty good and have pretty good players. So, you know, it's not a product of them not doing what they needed to do. But, you know, the other part of it, it's a product of. It's the oldest college basketball has ever been. I mean, we played against 26 year olds. This year. These two kids were 18. I mean, they're seven years and six years. And, you know, so, you know, that's an adjustment just in itself. You're playing with guys seven years older, but that'll help them in the pros. That's going to help them a lot next year. So a lot of good things and a lot of positives, but they had to learn a lot. They really did, and everyone played them differently.
- [91:44]
Ryan Rosillo
I know you've probably had to hear it because of the hype of two guys like this coming in and then you have this kind of season. Is there anything that you look back on and you're like, okay, now it's not. Would you have done anything differently? I think it's just the general sense of people that didn't watch any of the games are like, hey, they had two lottery picks. Like, what happened with this team this year? What did you learn from this season?
- [92:09]
Steve Pikiell
I mean, you learn a lot from, you know, from every season. First, every team in our league has, you know, really good players. So that's four.
- [92:16]
Ryan Rosillo
We.
- [92:17]
Steve Pikiell
We at Rutgers got two, five stars. We've never had them, so it was a huge deal. I said, Oregon gets three, has five, five stars in their program. No one talks about it because they get them every year. You know, like, you know, just because you get, you know, two players doesn't mean everything's going to be great for you. The obstacles are always going to come in a great league, you know, like this. But the only thing I would have changed was, was Dylan didn't get hurt in January during the toughest part of our season. And, you know, we're probably two or three games away from, you know, getting in that large bid. So, you know, can't change, you know, injuries unfortunate, and he's as tough as there is, and I would love for them to have gelled more together because when one was on, the other wasn't. And, you know, when Ace was on a run as good as any player in the history of the Big Ten, you know, Dylan was out. And then Dylan came back, and then Ace, you know, was out for, you know, so never, never got them on the same, you know, page during the short, you know, season. But I learned a lot. We sold out every game. It was exciting. Every game was nationally televised. They were on the COVID of Sports Illustrated. They did well in school. The community loves them. You know, I get it. We didn't go to the NCAA tournament, and I'm as disappointed as any. But 10 other coaches in the Big Ten feel the same way about their teams. And you know, it's, it's, it's. College basketball's tough. You're not guaranteed anything no matter what, you know, what players you have. And, and to coach these guys, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have traded it for the world. And they're great kids too. That's the most important thing. And they got better and I think that's what they came here to do. And they're lottery picks. So they did a great job here at Rutgers and now they're going to get rewarded and have long NBA careers.
- [94:02]
Ryan Rosillo
I was reading about the recruitment of Ace this morning and I was reading how like he went to a game and then he's like, I'm in. It was like, oh, you know, and then you're, then he's told, he told the story that he had to call his mom to just make sure she was on board with it because he wasn't getting too caught up in the moment. And there were some really cool stories in there that I was going back and reading and she kind of like, oh yeah, that's right, I remember that. Or I've forgotten this. But now in this pre draft process, it was all sorts of headlines last night when Ace and his team had canceled the Philly workout. Who has the third pick? Can you give us any further insight onto the pre draft process here for one of your guys?
- [94:38]
Steve Pikiell
I'm not really involved with any of that stuff at this point in time. I just know that every team, I mean, we have the credentials and not who. I mean every team in the NBA saw Ruckers basketball play. I'm going to give you on the average 17 games and probably 17 practices. So like, you know, I sometimes kind of, you know, laugh a little bit when, you know, teams need to work. These guys, they've seen these guys, they were with them at the McDonald's All American Game for a week. They've seen them play 35 times, like practice. They know everything about these guys. So, you know, I think they're, you know, as talented and as good of players as there are. I don't understand all that now. They got to work out. You saw them 35 times. I wish I got to see guys play 35 times. I have a 30 second timeout. I got to make a good decision, you know, so, you know what's going on in the draft. I really don't know. I do know that whoever passes on these, these guys are going to be really good and I know every GM I've talked to loves both of them, so I don't know why now. I guess, you know, it's kind of a boring draft I guess I'm hearing too. So we got to create a little something which may be exciting for people.
- [95:56]
Ryan Rosillo
I want to go back, I want to go back to your early days. Do you think playing against Woj in middle school set you up for a life in competition?
- [96:05]
Steve Pikiell
He intimidated me. He was a shot blocker galore, especially at the rim. But I think that set me up for my days at UConn, you know what I mean? Like, he gave me that good push to get to Coach Calhoun and to get started motivated. That's how good you got to be. You got to be better than what coach? But he's one of the all time greats, I will tell you that.
- [96:27]
Ryan Rosillo
He, I, I don't know if he wanted me to ask that or not, but he, he did throw it out there. He was like, just make sure, you know that I played against him in middle school. So I was going to share that. I love the, the Yukon story for you because were you recruited by Dom Perno?
- [96:40]
Steve Pikiell
I was. I was recruited by Dom Perno and then at the end of that year, you know, he, he resigned and Coach Calhoun came in. So those were the old days too. And I committed to UConn. I was going to UConn no matter what. It wasn't like it is today and I was happy that I picked it and then I was blessed to. I just got off the phone with Coach Calhoun and I can only tell you, you know, I played for him in 90, 91 was my last year and then I got a chance to coach with him. But we talk all the time. I mean, it's just a blessing to, you know, have played for him and saw him build a program and was part of, you know, part of some good, good teams and, you know, love my days at the University of Connecticut and love Coach Calhoun and Howie Dickerman, who was a longtime coach there. I coached with him at Central Connecticut and you know, all my teammates and, you know, just, just wonderful memories and that where that program is now. It wasn't like that when we first got there, Jim Calhoun's first year, we weren't talking about national championships. We were just trying to get out of the basement of the Big east, which only had nine teams at that time. I think about our league, I tell Coach gallon, we have 18 teams. Coach, you had nine back. You had to pass out nine teams. Eighteen are in our league. Eighteen. Yeah. Crazy how times have changed.
- [97:59]
Ryan Rosillo
What was it like, though, for you to be a Connecticut kid? And, you know, you said, hey, I'm going there no matter what. But, you know, every time they win a title, which feels like every few years here. Yeah, I probably have done the segment too many times where it's like a reminder of me going to all those Civic center games and just watch, Watching them get their doors beat. Like, I would go only to root for the other teams and get to see all the NBA players, because UConn was just a complete afterthought. And Calhoun comes in and completely changes something in a way that's like this. This team is at the level, not historically of like, Kentucky or North Carolina, but, like, has them at their level for this long stretch. It continues on with coaches after him. I can't even fathom, at your age, you would even understand this ship that he's turning around. But. But what was it like to be. I mean, you were there at the.
- [98:49]
Steve Pikiell
Beginning, I will tell you. I mean, as remarkable a job like I will tell you, I mean, UConn's really sexy now. Like, when it comes time to basketball like it is, you know, kids talk about UConn and Ray Allen to the rip, the Hamiltons to the Karam Butlers to the Ben Gordons. You know, when I went there, people would ask. They would stop me in the airport and they would ask, was Yukon in Alaska? And they would see the husky dog and they would think, the Alaskan Husky and UConn's got to be in the Yukon. I got that question more than I got any other question. So that's how far away Yukon was from the national picture, that they thought more of the Yukon, Alaska, you know, location than they did, you know, now what they call the basketball capital of the world, you know, and the job that Coach Calhoun did, I mean, there were no facilities at the time. He actually coached his whole time. No practice facility. He never actually had a practice facility. Three time national championship, you know, Chip coach, Hall of Famer. And same thing with Gino Rem, who's done a fantastic job on the women's side. He was there my first year was his first year. So I saw him build his program empire on the women's court. But how far? They weren't talking about draft picks. They weren't talking about national championship. We were just trying to not play in the 8, 9 game because the big. The Big east tournament had the 8, 9 game was the night before. And my freshman year we played in the 8, 9 game, and by my junior year, we were winning the Big east championship. In senior year, we were playing in Sweet 16. So talk about changing a culture and changing a mindset. UConn always had great fan base and always had a passionate. But Coach Calhoun came in and, you know, just as good a job. And I've been coaching now for 35 years, and, you know, just amazing what he did. And he didn't have great facilities. The Civic center was nice at the time, but our facility, we had a field house which had a leaky roof. I mean, when you talk about obstacles, like, wow, did he fight through a bunch of them? And then he just kept winning and pros and, you know, and then they get sexy, but I laugh. We were never, you know, we were blue collar as could be. We were never a sexy pick for anybody. And he had to talk kids into going there and promised them nothing and, you know, told them they'd get better if they come here and we'd win. And he followed his vision, and it happened happen there, and it continues to happen.
- [101:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I'm sure there's all sorts of anecdotes, but when you're younger and you're impressionable and here's somebody that's still in your life all these years later, is there one thing that you think of as a player or when you were on the staff after you graduated that you started thinking about yourself as a coach? You were like, this is something that Calhoun believes in that I want to be able to carry on when I go on. Is there one influential thing that you think of the most about that relationship?
- [101:51]
Steve Pikiell
There are really two things, because coach saw in me a coach, and I love basketball, and I was always around it, but I had other plans. I had done internships in business, community and insurance companies and all that. So I was doing that during my career at UConn. And then coach said, you need to try coaching. And from that day forward, I loved it. And I've been coaching out for 35 years, and the next best thing to plan was, was coaching. And I went through every step in every phase. But what I'm amazed of most, now that I've been a head coach for the last 20 years, his ability. He's a true family guy. His wife is the best. He has two sons. To navigate this job and be an unbelievable family guy and to spend time with your sons and daughters, everyone takes different lessons from him and stories about basketball. Everything pulls me away from my family like this. I'm leaving Tomorrow to go recruiting. I'm gone Friday, I'm gone Saturday, I'm gone. Sunday. Monday we start. We have practice here, you know, Summer Access, and Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday. So every. I gotta speak at this thing on Thursday. We got to, you know, the draft is coming on Wednesday, so, like. And this is June, and the whole schedule takes you away from your kids. I have four kids. And Coach Calhoun always had, like, his family like that. His sons were at games. He would go to his baseball games, his lacrosse games. His son Jimmy played lacrosse. I was always most amazed at that. And so that's what I really. He did both. He was a Hall of Fame coach, but I think if he's a Hall of Fame, like husband and father, like, and how he did that, I'm still amazed. I say to him all the time, I mean, I don't know how you did it the way you did it, and at that level. So those are the lessons more than anything. And he's as tough a man as he's. He's battled cancer 100, you know, like, he. I mean, he'll fight anybody. He'll fight the referees, he'll fight the business office. So, I mean, like, if he feels like he needs something in a true fighter, you know, Boston fighter and just an awesome guy, and to this day, he calls and he, steve, you got that referee. Steve, you got, like, he's the best. He wants to fight my fights, too, with me, which I like. I probably got to bring him in and sit him behind a bench.
- [104:18]
Ryan Rosillo
I remember I went to the old fieldhouse for a game, and I think they were playing Eastern or something, and it was just like an early. Hey, let's get a sweat. But it was a real game. And I forget the story, like, word for word, but there was kind of an understanding, like, if we take this game, take it easy on us. And I think Jim was up 40, screaming at everybody, and then on the.
- [104:39]
Steve Pikiell
Eastern, screaming at me. You probably saw that, probably turned it over. But he coached until the end, and he didn't care about. Not. Not that he didn't care about the opponent. He was always worried about his team. He had a great saying. He told me this bunch of times, steve, you can only coach one team. Don't worry about the other team. Like, that's that guy's job. You know, don't. Don't coach two teams. Just coach your own team and do the best you can. And if we're up 40 or down 40, coach your own team.
- [105:08]
Ryan Rosillo
So do you think that with the attention that Rutgers got, do you think with this season, which, you know, it's hard to feel great about it after the years done, the record, all that kind of thing. But do you think, coach, there's an element of like, we're on the map now, we're in conversations with players at another level. Do you think that this season can be looked back on as something that helped you change the course of Rutgers basketball?
- [105:33]
Steve Pikiell
I mean, 100%. And you got it. Ryan too. This is the most, you know, difficult time in college sports, not just basketball. I mean when you add on that dollar figure with, you know, like it's not even, like it's nothing like it was five years ago. Like, you know, and to get two players like that, you know, with, with the restrictions that we have, we haven't been at the cutting edge of nil. So we, we got two kids to come here because they believed in us and they believed Rutgers, 15th ranked team, public university in the country. They believe they'd have a home for life, which they do. They're here working out. Dylan's downstairs as we speak. You know, Ace will be back in a few weeks. We got the 30th ranked recruiting class for next year. And if you don't think that every one of those kids asked about Ace and Dylan and you know, yeah, you can come here, you could be a first rounder, you could be a lottery pick. You know, you don't have to go to, you know, that sexy school. Like, you know, Ace and Ace and Dylan were confident in their own games and you know, like it wasn't about what school or what uniform they were. It was, I'm really good and I played against every 17, 18, 19 year olds in every event. I'm really good. Dylan Harper was MVP of the McDonald's game. He went to the Jordan brand game. He was mvp. All the best players. You know, Ace was, you know, one of the best players in the country in all those games. So, you know, they were very confident and they want to come to a good school, have a place for life and they did that. We sold out every game, ton of excitement. We didn't win as many games as we'd like. But I think every coach in the country except for the national championship team would probably say the same thing. And that's kind of college basketball. But what they've done and helped us do and we're going to have another good recruiting class and trust me on this, you know, having those two guys here for the next, you know, rest of Their careers, and they're going to have long NBA careers. They'll be saying Rutgers when. When they're introduced in the starting lineup. And that's. That's a great thing.
- [107:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, this is really cool, man, because of your background and the whole thing, Whether it's my pickup games at St. Paul's or when I was in Bristol or that actually, the St. Joe's pickup games were much nastier because Donny Marshall used to bring me, and then he brought Jerome Dyson once, which didn't go over well at all because we weren't members. But all your Yukon ties, they let us go play there. And those games are actually nastier than any of the other games I played in, because the age disparity. And there was also people that paid, and they knew that we were calling it kind of like being done favors. And then when Dyson showed up that day, these older guys are like, what the fuck's wrong with you guys?
- [108:13]
Steve Pikiell
They get mad when you load those All Star games. Donnie Marshall, I hosted him on his visit out of Seattle, out of Washington. And the funny part is now you fast forward it 25 years. Donnie's one of the great UConn players, and now he does TV and great at what he does. We signed a great player out of Seattle who knew his name, and Caden Power is going to be really good for me, a shooter. And, you know, it's funny how it all comes back full circle to good people, I bet. Good people at UConn, good people here, good people in Bristol, even though they call a lot of fouls in those games, you know, especially some of those older guys that we would play against. But, you know, the UConn family always continues to help me, even though I'm at Rutgers now. They follow and they do unbelievable things, but all started there in Connecticut.
- [109:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Last thing I know, you're working with Dick's Sporting Goods and the Game Changer app, which is focusing on youth sports. So tell us a little bit more about that.
- [109:10]
Steve Pikiell
It's an unbelievable app. First of all, you know, film. I say, what's the most undervalued tool in youth basketball is film prep. You know, people get on the court, they do workouts. You can now watch film from home with people that are experts in it. That's what we do at the college level. This app allows you to watch your kids games on the road, watch film later on, take stats from it. It's an unbelievable app. And film watching is the most undervalued and valuable tool that you could use. In your development. And I did it with my son. He's playing college basketball now and I highly recommend it. And everyone does workouts. Work your mind out when your legs are tired, your mind isn't tired, and you can continue to be a really good basketball player and you can clip up highlights and send them off to colleges and do all this other stuff. You know, technology nowadays, amazing. And this is a big part of that. So take a look at it.
- [110:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Absolutely. Hey, enjoy next week. It's a big moment for you. It's a big moment for Rutgers and we're only days away from the draft. Thanks, coach.
- [110:22]
Steve Pikiell
Thanks. I'd love to come back on after the draft. It'd be great. Thanks, Ryan.
- [110:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Done. Let's have you next season. Thanks, Steve. Awesome.
- [110:28]
Steve Pikiell
Thanks.
- [110:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Thanks for checking out a Friday pod here. And we'll be back Tuesday, Thursday next week. So game seven, Bill and I will be live and then Tuesday, you know, we'll probably be doing some draft, some off season stuff. Maybe we'll have a big trade by then. And then on Thursday we'll recap the first round of the NBA draft. Thanks for listening. The Ryan Rosilla Podcast Ringer Spotify they.
- [110:51]
Sam Vecenie
Were going to name me Michael Jordan. My dad was like, I don't think he can live up to it. So they named me Michael. Jared.
- [111:04]
Ryan Rosillo
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