Jon Gruden on Trevor Lawrence’s Revival, Drake Maye’s Ceiling & Who to Trust in the AFC, Plus CFB Playoff Cinderellas Had No Shot

Summary

The Ryen Russillo Show – Dec 22, 2025

Guest: Jon Gruden
Main Topics: Trevor Lawrence’s Revival, Drake Maye’s Ceiling, Who to Trust in the AFC, CFB Playoff Blowouts, NFL Playoff Picture
Special Segments: Life Advice (Holiday family dynamics, coupon obsessions, airplane seating dilemmas)

---

Episode Overview

Ryen Russillo welcomes Jon Gruden to break down the chaotic AFC playoff picture, Trevor Lawrence’s recent surge, the trajectory of Drake Maye, college football playoff mismatches, and team-building philosophy in the NFL. They discuss which teams can be trusted in the postseason and the evolution of offenses. The show wraps up with a lively “Life Advice” segment that dives into family holiday stress, obsessive couponing, and the etiquette of swapping seats on airplanes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unpredictable AFC (03:18–18:21)

• Russillo’s Frustration: Ryen admits he’s “given up” trying to handicap the AFC, citing unpredictable swings and lack of a truly trustworthy team.
• Jacksonville’s Resume: Russillo praises the Jags for sound, mistake-free football and a defense that’s become elite late in the season.
• Notable Stats: Denver’s defense fell from “top-three” status to 27th in EPA over the last five games; meanwhile, Jacksonville emerged as the No. 1 defense during that span.
• On the Patriots: New England is now a 2-seed—despite allowing 75% red zone touchdowns, they’ve benefited from the easiest schedule since 1999.

“I give up on the AFC. I have no confidence whatsoever.”
—Ryen Russillo (03:18)

• Pittsburgh’s Surprise: The Steelers’ offense has marginally improved, and big wins (like vs. Detroit) may signal they’re a legitimate threat.
• College Football Playoff Critique: A brief aside on how blowouts by P5 teams against Group of Five programs are exposing flaws in the expanded playoff format.

---

2. College Football Playoff Blowouts (09:53–16:58)

• Ryen’s Take: The difference in experience, depth, and scheduling between Power 4 and Group of 5 teams makes upsets unlikely and blowouts inevitable.
• NCAA Tournament Comparisons: Russillo criticizes efforts to equate CFB upsets with NCAA basketball, highlighting the difference in format and entertainment value.

“We've had plenty of Big Boy vs Big Boy playoff games be just as unentertaining as what you saw from Tulane and James Madison…”
—Ryen Russillo (14:31)

---

3. Jon Gruden on the State of the AFC (18:21–24:17)

• NFL Upside Down: Gruden marvels at teams like Jacksonville and New England flipping fortunes year to year.
• Gruden’s Picks: He likes New England, Jacksonville, Denver, and “dangerous” Houston—especially for their defense.

“The whole NFL to me, has gone upside down. You're seeing teams go from worst to first.”
—Jon Gruden (18:50)

• Jacksonville Praise: Gruden highlights the system, Trevor Lawrence’s developing confidence, and the arrival of Jacoby Myers as difference-makers. He names five eligible receivers and a “dangerous” defense as key strengths.

---

4. Trevor Lawrence’s Revival (20:18–22:48)

• Ryen’s Question: What’s clicking for Lawrence during his best NFL stretch?
• Gruden’s Insight: It’s Lawrence’s first time with real confidence and system-fit, help from Myers, and a creative scheme giving him multiple receiving options.

“Now they have a receiver [Myers] who can go into the middle…and the revival of this offense… They're dangerous, man. They've come out of nowhere.”
—Jon Gruden (20:18)

---

5. Building Around a Quarterback in Today’s NFL (22:48–25:53)

• Gruden’s Team-Building Philosophy:
  • Must-have: A mobile QB who is a run threat.
  • Next: Offensive linemen who can block.
  • Key: A go-to WR who can win 50/50 balls.
  • Bonus: A 3-way back (run, receive, block).

“We never took a quarterback in the first round all the years I was coaching…You have to adapt to who you have.”
—Jon Gruden (24:45)

---

6. Drake Maye’s Ceiling (25:53–28:04)

• Gruden’s Take: He wouldn’t trade Maye for anyone in the AFC, even over Josh Allen.
• Attributes: Maye’s athleticism, intelligence, and adaptation to a pro-style system.
• Mental Toughness: Overcomes mistakes, stays composed in big moments.

“I wouldn't want anybody over Drake Maye. ...If I had Drake Maye, I would be hard pressed to trade him to anybody.”
—Jon Gruden (25:59)

---

7. Offensive Systems, Game Planning, and NFC Contenders (28:04–42:04)

On Offensive Planning Based on Defense: Gruden emphasizes adjusting offensive aggression based on whether the defense is healthy/elite and the matchup.

Caleb Williams & Ben Johnson:

• Notable improvements in sack reduction, performance under pressure, and talent around Williams.
• Gruden credits Ben Johnson (Bears) for improving fundamentals and hiring Dennis Allen (defense ranks among league’s best in turnovers).

Seattle & Rams Analysis:

• Importance of run game balance, even for play-action heavy QBs like Darnold.
• Seattle’s play-action numbers are elite, but you can’t “just call play action every single time.”
• Rams/Seattle home-field advantage is “wide open” in the NFC.

“I think it's wide open. I think anything goes this year in the playoffs... when you have a quarterback that can run it and throw it, God help you.”
—Jon Gruden (38:26)

Favorite Systems:

• Gruden shouts out Detroit, Seattle, Sean McVay (Rams), Kyle Shanahan (49ers), and Ben Johnson’s creativity.

---

8. Absence of Star Quarterbacks in the Playoffs (42:04–43:18)

• Ryen & Gruden Lament: The postseason is missing Mahomes, Lamar, and Burrow—a significant “changing of the guard.”
• Jacksonville’s Moment: With traditional powers missing, the Jags might have their window.

---

9. Game-Planning Philosophy & Story Time (44:40–49:41)

• Tailoring the Gameplan: Play to your strengths but know when to adjust drastically for defense (i.e., Bill Walsh on not “saving any bad ideas”).
• Gruden’s Coaching Roots: Shares early stories from his 49ers stint, the impact of greats like Montana, Rice, and the environment that shaped his approach.

“It’s not the plays. It’s how we practice the plays. ...They were creative. They stimulated their players. That was the cutting edge of football. It’ll never be that way again.”
—Jon Gruden (47:54)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ryen on AFC Chaos:

  “I give up on the AFC. I have no confidence whatsoever.” (03:18)

• Jon Gruden on Drake Maye:

  “I wouldn't want anybody over Drake Maye. ...If I had Drake Maye, I would be hard pressed to trade him to anybody.” (25:59)

• On NFL Parity:

  “The whole NFL to me, has gone upside down. ...Jacksonville, what they've done is astonishing.” —Jon Gruden (18:50)

• Gruden on Supporting Cast for QBs:

  “If you can’t block, you can’t play.” (23:12)

• Ryen on College Football Playoff Blowouts:

  “We've had plenty of Big Boy vs Big Boy playoff games be just as unentertaining as what you saw from Tulane and James Madison…” (14:31)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• AFC Breakdown & Parity — 03:18–09:53
• CFB Playoff Blowouts & System Critique — 09:53–16:58
• Transition to Barstool & Gruden Interview Starts — 18:21
• Lawrence’s Surge & Jacksonville Offense — 20:18–22:48
• How to Build Around a QB — 22:48–25:53
• Drake Maye Conversation — 25:53–28:04
• Caleb Williams/Bears/Seattle NFC Picture — 28:04–42:04
• Absence of Big QBs in Playoffs — 42:04–43:18
• Bill Walsh, Game-Planning, and Gruden’s Coaching Roots — 44:40–49:41

---

Life Advice Highlights (50:33–End)

1. Holiday Family Crowd Control (54:14+)

• Listener frustrated about extended family (fiancé’s relatives) crowding a small, sentimental Christmas gathering.
• Consensus: You’re allowed to feel annoyed, but don’t blow up the family vibe; vent after the fact and don’t create unnecessary holiday drama.

2. Coupon Obsession/Return Policies (67:02+)

• Listener obsessed with maximizing discounts, using return windows, manipulating customer service to snag more rewards/hot dogs.
• Group says “set some boundaries” — it might be performance art now, but don’t become a nuisance to loved ones or the people serving you.

3. Airplane Seat Etiquette (76:24+)

• Listener refused a switch request from a mother wanting her teen son closer.
• Russillo & crew: Not an asshole for saying no, especially if it means downgrading your seat—line gets trickier the younger the kid is.

---

Tone and Language

• Russillo is candid, often self-effacing, and occasionally exasperated by the madness of the NFL season and holiday inconveniences.
• Gruden brings a coach’s eye—pragmatic, occasionally sentimental about the game’s golden eras, with vivid detail about football systems and personnel.
• The Life Advice segment has a humorous yet empathetic approach, full of relatable anecdotes, sarcastic asides, and practical wisdom.

---

Overall, this episode delivers a timely, lively, and football-savvy conversation between two gridiron minds—and ends with relatable, laugh-out-loud riffs on holiday and everyday life headaches.

Transcript

[Ryan Roso]

Hey barstool listeners. You can find every episode of the Ryan Roso show on Apple podcast, Spotify or YouTube Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. The Ryan Rilla show was presented by DraftKings. I'll talk to Jon Gruden today. We're going to get his thoughts on handicapping the afc, which I've basically decided I give up on. I I don't know what to make of this conference other than this Trevor Lawrence stretch for a month. Is it real? The defense probably is. We'll do that. Some Seattle, some Rams. So a ton of stuff with Gruden and I will also in the open which is not as in depth as some others. I'm going to touch on the reaction from Saturday's college football games after Miami's win at A and M. And we've got life advice with a bunch of holiday travel savings. It's all in there. 40 point quarters, triple doubles, buzzer beaters that shake up the standings. DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA is where you want to be. I have enjoyed watching the Utah Jazz lately. Now I know what you're saying to yourself. You're like really? Come on man, out of the gates. 4 and 8 I think. Although this pop up coming up in the middle of this isn't great. Yeah, 4 and 8, then 5 and 12. But if you look at it, 500 team the last 10. Yep, Filipowski's been a leading scorer for this team. Chiati George continues to do more with more meaning, more efficiency, more output with more volume. Marketing is back to the marketing that we saw a couple years ago. You're like man, this guy is balling. That's really actually two years ago, first year with Utah, his fourth with the franchise. Still only 28 years old and averaging 28 a game for a career high. So yeah, I like the Jazz. Massive underdogs. Massive underdogs at Denver, but not a massive trip for them. Three and eight in the row this year. Player Props Live bets Same game parlays Bet on the biggest moments of the holiday season and the stars that make them unforgettable. And remember, DraftKings has your back with early exit. If your player goes down in the first period, you you still get paid in cash. With DraftKings, you're covered through the entire first half. Why bet Player Props Anywhere else new customers can bet just $5 and if your bet wins, get $200 in bonus bets instantly. Holiday Hoops Limited Games Cash in download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use the code RYAN. That's RYAN. R, Y E N bet five bucks and get $200 in bonus bets. If your bet wins in partnership with DraftKings, the Crown is yours.

[Jon Gruden]

Gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler in New York. Call 877-8-Hopeny or text hopeny 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling.

[Ryan Roso]

Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play.

[Jon Gruden]

Responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas. Pass through of per wager tax may apply in Illinois 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Restrictions apply. Bet must win to receive bonus bets.

[Ryan Roso]

Which expire in seven days.

[Jon Gruden]

Minimum odds required for additional terms and responsible gaming resources.

[Ryan Roso]

Akng Co/Audio limited time offer two more weeks to go and the Monday night or tonight, which has seating implications. And I'll just tell you this on the afc, not that this is breaking news. I give up. I give up on the entire conference. I have no confidence whatsoever. I'm in a position here where I was talking about the Bills a few weeks ago, being like, it's all lining up for the Bills. That might be the wrong move. I mean, let's just run through this right now. All right, so Denver, who's won 11 straight, I thought they would lose to Green Bay last week and be like, all right, enough of this. Meanwhile, Green Bay just keeps losing. Denver wins 11 straight. I think it's 12 straight at home. Then they lose to Jacksonville, and it's not close. Like Jacksonville, who nobody seems to like. I think less people like Jacksonville than they did Denver. And now you're like, what am I supposed to do? So if you didn't like Denver that much, then how impressed are you with Jacksonville going to Denver and beating them? Well, you have to be impressed with something, okay? Something has to mean something. So I'm not being just across the board dismissive of all of it. But, you know, Jacksonville has a really nice resume at this point. Trevor Lawrence, you know, hasn't thrown a pick in a month. I think one of the most impressive things from him is he gets sacked five times by this Denver pass rush and not one of them turns into a pick. Very limited yards given up on the sacks. He doesn't have a fumble on any of this stuff. They went after Riley Moss, who I think is more camera time than any defensive back in the entire league, maybe because everybody's always throwing at him, and I feel like he's Always good for a couple of penalties just because nobody wants to throw to certain side of it. So if you go the last five games for Denver, let's go week 11 Sando had this note. This Denver defense that, you know, with all those guys in the front with the best corner, it actually hasn't been great lately. And that's why they were able to still somehow beat the packers with not a great defensive effort because Bo Nix was terrific in that game. Bo Nix was not great yesterday. So now you factor in the Denver. Well, this defense that I would say what the first 2/3 of the season up in a week 10 or like. Yeah, that's one of the three best. It's one of the five best. I think I even referenced it that way even though I knew the numbers were declining. Well, I don't know though. They were this bad. If you go week 11 on. So that's five games with the Denver buy in there. Their defense EPA is ranked 27th in the league. You know who's number one the team they lost to Jacksonville. So Jacksonville really good old line. I know they gave the sacks yesterday. Deep receivers Lawrence year five plus figuring it out even. I'm hesitant to even say that. He has had a really nice stretch here. But on top of everything else, this defense, I know the first month into the season where Jacksonville had a nice record and I was looking at the turnover margin. They were plus 2.3 turnovers per game. I'm like whatever. Like that's ridiculous. That's not even a real number. It's fake. That's not what it's going to be and it's not what they are now in the turnover stuff. But it's actually a sign that they've been a better football team and they're not just relying on this absurd turnover margin all season long. I think they're still fourth in plus minus in the NFL. Chicago's is off the charts which explains why Chicago going to be losing so many games then come back and win. We'll share that number for you here in a little bit. So that's what you have is you have Jacksonville who has a win against the Chargers 35 to 6 right after the Houston loss where the Houston loss, as sad as it was for him to lose in fashion that they did, it's not outrageous. And look, this is this whole. The rest like let's do the rest of the conference. New England's your two seed. Great comeback last night, down two scores. They've got to get two touchdowns in the fourth quarter at Baltimore. Mays 31 of 44, 380 yards, two touchdowns in the fourth quarter. Converts a huge fourth down. Lamar had to leave the game because he got kneed in the back. So what am I supposed to do with the Pats? There's basically just a collection of average stats on who they are defensively. The worst red zone touchdown percentage allowed in the NFL. Teams are scoring touchdowns 75% of the time they're in the red zone against New England. Good teams are in the 40s. They're at 75%, so that number's atrocious. Even though the third down, opposing yards for play, that stuff's all average. So, yeah, they're the two seed. It's the easiest schedule that we've seen in the NFL since 1999. It's a joke. So I'm supposed to like them. Pittsburgh's 9 and 6 in the 4 seed couple weeks ago, December 7th. I'm like I said it on the pot, I go 0% chance that Pittsburgh wins that division. They have to play Baltimore two more times. This Pittsburgh offense is garbage. The defense isn't even that good. They're going to have Lamar back. They're going to have everybody healthy. Baltimore is going to get him two more times, and then the Ravens will be in the playoffs and they'll win the division. Doesn't even matter what the rest of the seating stuff is. Well, Pittsburgh beats Detroit at their place. They've won five their last seven and beating Detroit. You know, I'm sorry, like, Detroit's going to have a very average record here. I think Detroit's a really nice win. I think they're a good team and hard to be even with their offensive limitations yesterday because of their offensive line issues on like their third center. Right. But I still think it's tough to go into the Detroit and beat them. If you look at Pittsburgh's offense, it's a little bit better. Their yards per play right up until December was like 24th. So look, Baltimore at Green Bay. If Baltimore loses that one, they're done. Pittsburgh wins the division. If Baltimore wins at Green Bay and keeps this thing alive on a Saturday for a Sunday, all Pittsburgh has to do is be Cleveland and they're going to be your 4 seed in the AFC. Sensing the theme, I don't even have a best win. Oh, I do. It's still Seattle. It's still Seattle's win against Los Angeles. Maybe you could go with Jacksonville at Denver considering it was the one seed and still is the one seed. Now Chicago's winning on Saturday. Here's a number for you.

[Kyle]

Do you know how easy this is for me?

[Ryan Roso]

Do you have any fucking idea how easy this is?

[Jon Gruden]

This is a fucking joke.

[Ryan Roso]

Ten times Chicago has trailed under the last two minutes. Ten times this year. They are six and four in those games. You know, the Chargers have put together a really nice good month here. And then you have the Bills. I'll just close it with this. I'm supposed to like the Bills throughout all this. They actually were in a game against Cleveland. Cleveland isn't good. Their defense is good. Sanders isn't good. Maybe he's a young quarterback. Although it's going to be really interesting if they draft a quarterback and then the Sanders army can say that he was never given a shot. And we missed out on seeing Randall Cunningham 2.0. But yeah, I give up. I give up on the afc. I have a couple thoughts on the college thing here before we go, because I don't have a full open on it. I just want to make sure that I get it in. So the Bama game against Oklahoma was terrific. Feels a little weird Monday, recapping Friday, Saturday morning was also a lot of fun. Kind of played out the way I thought that game would play out, where it was going to be a grind. Two really good defenses, quarterbacks I don't necessarily love. And I'm telling you, couple dudes considered to be part of the ball knowing community, talking up Marcel Reed as the Heisman guy and that was like, what are you doing? That was surprising to me. Then he has the disastrous throw because that's what he does. And next thing you know, Miami's moving on. So good for Miami. And a fun game, really fun. Alabama game against Oklahoma completely turned things around. And then we had the other two games, which is what everybody's pissed about right now. Ole Miss, Tulane was over immediately. And every time you watch Oregon, especially in the first half, you were like, oh, that guy's just going to run forever now too. Now granted, they actually got outscored in the second half big time by James Madison. So Lanning could do the post game thing and be super intense and pissed off about the whole thing. And so we're left with another year in this new Earth system, only a two year system of trying to figure out what it actually means. And this is one of the things that I hate about us as people, like the human nature part of it is that we have to see something look stupid before we think it's potentially stupid. And we did it last year with the seatings, because they changed that immediately. They're like, oh wait, this is kind of stupid. I just, it drives me absolutely crazy that if you're A and M and you're a seven seed, you're playing Miami and if you're a six seed, you're playing Tulane. You know, that's, that's a totally, totally different experience. And in this case, you had two teams with the five matchup, 5:12 matchup going with Oregon and James Madison. But if I were to zag a bit, even though I don't think two group of five teams should be in the playoff, right. I think it's a completely different experience. It's 12 games plus your conference championship game. Maybe you have one P4, maybe two P4 on the schedule. James Madison had won. It was the Washington State thing where there was some weird stuff going on last week where it was like, well, look, they beat James Madison at home and James Madison, you know, if, if you're looking at James Madison beating Washington State and look at Washington State, they were in a game late against Ole Miss and on and on and on. And you're like, yeah, but this is the difference. It's the difference between having to do it 12 times, line up and do it 12 times in a power four conference versus a non power four conference or group of five. In this case. I don't, I don't think it's close, but because these games are blowouts and it's like, we gotta do something else. Well, again, back to the zag position on this. We've had plenty of in the four team playoff system and even last year we've had plenty of Big Boy vs Big Boy playoff games. Be just as unentertaining as, as what you saw from Tulane and James Madison on Saturday. So if you're mad that the game wasn't good, be careful. Be careful because really what you're doing is you're following for like, this is different, right? The labeling part of this. Wait, this is a group of five team going up against one of the big boys. This game stunk. Well, it's only because of the system, maybe, but we've had plenty of times where two teams have played each other that are from the big boy conferences and it's not even close. I mean, it's happened all the time. Really what you should be mad about is that people try to compare this to the NCAA tournament. And I know Joe Clatt caught some heat. I guess the guy's in, pardon my take, took his man card. So I Don't even know what happens when the car is taken away from you, if you're allowed to go out, whatever. But the difference between the NCAA Tournament and the College Football Playoff is in the beginning, when there's upsets in the NCAA Tournament, you're not. You're not watching the whole game. All right? You're not sitting down unfettered for three, three and a half hours of any of those basketball games. So really, it's about you. You're pissed that for six hours on Saturday, you are not entertained by this really entertaining sport. And then to go like, well, basketball is egalitarian and they give everybody a chance. And I've always said, like, the basketball thing makes sense. I like that every single conference is going to have a chance because most of the time, like, you've got to play all these games. It's not really going to matter. And a lot of these games you're not even watching. They're not early on in the tournament. Like, they're all over each other. And you. It's up to you to find those games. And if you're not entertained by one, you'll just watch the other game or watch the game that you bet on or watch the game that you have, like, a mild rooting interest in, or watch the game with a guy who could be a lottery pick. That's really what you're saying this is. It just always gets back to how incredibly selfish we are. I don't like that it happened either, okay, but to compare it to the NCAA tournament and be like, well, if you like the NCAA tournament, you have to like what happened on Saturday. It's like, yeah, but there's no version of the college basketball tournament that would likely have. I mean, you could start saying, hey, the Elite Eight. And it's. And it's the marquee games. And we all joke about how much we love upsets until the upsets screw up your Elite 8 weekend. But I'd rather not see what we saw on Saturday time and time again. I'd rather never have more than one group of five team in there. But I.

[Steve]

It.

[Ryan Roso]

It's not an apples to apples thing with the men's basketball tournament ever. The Big Shack is out now, and it's a serious burger. We're talking two Angus beef patties, three buns, new secret sauce. It's stacked, balanced, and built the right way. And you get everything you expect from Shake Shack, fresh ingredients, that toasted potato bun and sauce that pulls the whole thing together. It's big. It's fresh. It's legit. One of their best burgers yet. I love it for Christmas. I'm not saying like, hey, first thing in the morning, burgers under the tree. Although there's worst ideas, I just love it. I love seeing kids be excited, having some cheeseburgers sitting there and then a younger dude going, I want the Big Shack. I'm going for it. And he comes out of the box and you're like, this guy is not messing around. I just think Shake Shack feels like a quick bite. Getting ready with the family for the rest of what this week entails and hoping everybody has a Merry Christmas. If you've been waiting to see what all the hype's about, today's the day. Go to Shake Shack and order the Big Shack. Sounds familiar. Made different Excited to do this. Been with Barstool a couple months and we were trying to figure out a good Monday to talk some NFL with the super bowl champ Jon Gruden, who's been at the company now for a while. It's good to see you. How are you?

[Jon Gruden]

It's good to see you. Merry Christmas. Welcome to Barstool, man.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, Merry Christmas to you, too. And thanks for making the transition easy for me and having some time for it so, you know, in the open. I basically am admitting that I'm just giving up on the afc. I don't know what to make of the conference. The teams that I don't like aren't going to be in the playoffs. What do you make of of the conference in general? Is there a team that you actually do really like as far as, like, getting through this conference?

[Jon Gruden]

Well, the whole NFL to me, has gone upside down. You're seeing teams go from worst to first. I mean, how about Jacksonville? What they've done is astonishing. We went up there, training camp, we're all excited to see Travis Hunter. He's not even playing. They took him number two overall. They gave up a one next year and they're going to win the AFC South. They just beat the hell out of Denver. They're dangerous and I never saw it coming. The Patriots were one of the worst teams in football last year and they look like Patriot vin. Vintage teams. I like New England, I like Jacksonville. I still like Denver and I have the Houston Texans. Ryan, as a real dangerous team because of this defense. They can hang around for a long time if they don't give up points.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, totally with you on that defense. And it's funny because when you looked at that Jacksonville blown game to Houston weeks ago, that was kind of like the reset of like ah, jags. Like how do you, how do you blow that game? And then it's kind of one of those things where it feels like the public is a little late to who Houston's becoming. But if we keep this specific to Trevor Lawrence in this game, I think one of my favorite things is he was sacked five times but didn't give up a ton of yards, didn't lead to a bad throw, it didn't lead to a fumble or any of this stuff. He put up the highest QBR against this Denver defense that we've seen all season long. I think for all of us he was somebody that was just up and down and up and down. And then you're five years in and you're like, when's it going to click for him? What do you think is actually clicking for him now? Because it feels like he's hitting the best stretch of his career this last month.

[Jon Gruden]

Well, I think it's the first time he's had confidence in the NFL, in the system. I think this system really suits him. I think the supporting cast is a lot better than it has been. And if you look at the arrival of Jacoby Myers, I know he's not a household name for people, but Jacoby Myers, his arrival is about the revival of this offense. They've averaged 33 points a game since he got there. Now they have a receiver who can go into the middle and run a lot of creative routes. He can recognize man zone, he can handle the audibles. And Parker Washington's come out of nowhere. Brian Thomas is a deep threat etn he can do it all coming out of the backfield. They're tight end. Strange, no one even knows who this guy is because no one talks about. But they have five eligible receivers that can get after your ass. And Lawrence is still a dual threat. He is big Ryan and he's very athletic and he's smart and he loves this offense. And by the way, their defense is playing as good as anybody in the last six weeks. They give him a lot of opportunities and they might have one of the best kickers in football. They're dangerous, man. They've come out of nowhere.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, the Brian Thomas thing is, is important there too because like last year, he lights it up and then you're kind of wondering where the numbers are. Then you look at that matchup yesterday, you're like, well, certain is going to be on him. He's not going to get a ton of targets. And then I swear, like every Denver Game I watch. I've never seen a player that's not a quarterback on the screen as much as Riley Moss. And I. I almost feel bad for him that it's just that whoever's going up against Denver, they're like, we're just not going to. So you're going to be on every single replay Riley Moss. And it seems like that's what Jacksonville is trying to do. Much like so many of Denver's opponents here, as this defense has hit probably a rough stretch by their standards for him.

[Jon Gruden]

Yeah, no doubt. But, you know, this is a matchup league. Pro football, I think, has always been a matchup league. If you have a guy that can take out our number one receiver, then we're going to go to our number two guy against your second corner. And if you can beat us in that matchup, we'll go to our third guy. And if you got that, we'll go to the tight end or the running back. But back to the initial point, they have five eligible receivers on every play and they can all beat you. And there's a real creative way that Liam Cohen is using these guys and it's been really fun to watch. And they can hand the ball off. If you start playing a lot of coverage, ETN will cut you up. He is really a good back.

[Ryan Roso]

If you were like in your dream scenario, John, getting to build out what you would want, or you could say, like, oh, two great tackles and a jameer Gibbs and that kind of stuff, but like, system. And I'm sure you think about it all the time, like, hey, I want a quarterback to be able to make these throws. These throws aren't as important. If you were to, like map out how you were building support around a quarterback in today's NFL, what would your priorities be?

[Jon Gruden]

Well, I think you need a quarterback today that can get out of the way and create some plays with his legs. A guy you can use in the running game as a guy that keeps it on the zone read or some design quarterback runs. You have that in Trevor Lawrence. I think it starts there, finding a quarterback that can do damage with his legs. Then after that, I have to have some offensive linemen. We can go to all these 7 on 7 elite 11 camps around the country. You can find the best receivers and quarterbacks, but if you can't block, you can't play. And I'll tell you, Anton Harrison at right tackle has done a hell of a job. They've used a couple guys at left tackle, but we have to have a couple guys that can pass protect, certainly. And then you got to have one, go to receiver, a bad ball receiver that can win the 50, 50 pass, a guy that can come out of the trash after the catch and make something happen when nothing is there. And it sure helps if you have a back that you can use three ways, run on the ball, catching the ball and picking up blitzes. I guess in a long story short, that's. That's where I would start.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was shooting there. Because when I think about your career, it may have just been circumstance, but if you think about Gannon and what you did with him and then went in with Brad and then Jeff at the end, and I know you had a little. You had a sampling of Chris Simms in there at 25 years old, but did you find yourself just having a much easier time with the seasoned guys, or is that just the circumstances of the way the rosters were built?

[Jon Gruden]

Yeah, no. We never took a quarterback in the first round all the years I was coaching. And sometimes you walk into a situation as a head coach and you inherit the circumstances. Sometimes. Sometimes there's a guy like Derek Carr that's a good player that we need to get playing great, and that's what we focused on doing. Some of it is circumstances. I was always jealous. Don't get me wrong.

[Ryan Roso]

That's what I was wondering.

[Jon Gruden]

Herbert, Pat Mahome. I used to go to the combine every year and see Tony Duny and Bill Belichick. They got Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. Tomlin had Ben Roethlisberger. It pissed me off. I wish I could have had one of those guys for 12 or 13 years. But, you know, not all of us can get those guys. So you have to adapt to who you have. And I learned in Green Bay from Mike Holmgren, you can make a guy successful if you get everybody on board and you build this guy's confidence and build a system that. To help this guy become productive. That's what Holmgren did with Brett Favre. And I learned a great lesson then. Whoever your quarterback is, get him to play as good as he can play and you got a chance.

[Ryan Roso]

So what do you think of Drake May right now? How many. How many guys in the AFC would you want over Drake May?

[Jon Gruden]

I wouldn't want anybody over Drake May. I'm being honest with you.

[Ryan Roso]

Even Josh Allen.

[Jon Gruden]

Well, you could slap me if I had to take anybody over Drake May. Josh Allen's. He's a freak of nature. But if I had Drake May, I would be Hard pressed to trade him to anybody. He's 23 years old. He's just getting started. This is really the first year he's been in a system like the system he's been in. He was an RPO guy at North Carolina. I didn't think they gave him a lot of chances to use his mind in the pre snap to check in and out of plays. What he's doing with Josh McDaniels is phenomenal. He's going to break some records at Tom Brady never even attained. And he's only in his first year in this system. And he's so athletic, people don't realize what he's able to do with his legs.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, last night, you know, it's just a weird feeling with this Patriots roster because there's a lot and especially with all the different guys they had going into the medical tent all night last night. And you're kind of watching Drake May expecting it to happen, which is probably like the greatest compliment I could have for a quarterback is that do I still think you have a chance considering the score and how much time is left. And like Drake Mays on a very short list, which seems ridiculous because it does feel like this is the first year and it's almost like last year was, I don't know, studying abroad or something because they weren't exactly prepared roster or coaching approach.

[Jon Gruden]

Well, he's something. I mean, he throws the interception on the opening drive, which really shows you something else. He's got the mental toughness. It's a big game. You're on the road, you're playing the Ravens. You lost last week. The negativity starts to pile up on some people, but he just turns around and acted like he was pissed off. I don't think he had an incomplete pass the rest of the night. I mean, you throw for 380 yards. Bring your team back in the fourth quarter. What else do you want to see this kid do now? If they can get Spain back and Milton Williams back to get this defense back to where it was in the middle part of the season, I don't think anybody wants to play the Patriots right now, especially up in Foxborough.

[Ryan Roso]

How much are you game planning, you know, because of your approach offensively. But when you're thinking about what your defense is and whether that's who's available, who the opponent is, matchup wise, would you, I assume, tailor some of the offensive like goals for that game, knowing like what your defense is or isn't week to week?

[Jon Gruden]

You talking about the defense that I'm coaching our defense.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Jon Gruden]

Defense we're playing. Yeah. I think certain weeks you walk out there and you see Josh Allen and I don't care who's healthy on our defense. You tell Josh McDaniels, we got to score a lot of points this week to win. So let's be real aggressive. Let's plan on going forward on fourth down in a couple key situations and let's consider up in the tempo. Let's try to make this defense wear down that we're playing. But obviously you're a lot more aggressive and you're trying to outscore some of these teams that have great quarterbacks and great offenses.

[Ryan Roso]

So the Caleb Williams experiment here with Ben Johnson, how have you watched this? Because I still can't believe Saturday. I mean, I can't believe how often the Bears are down late in these games. They pull it off. Also knowing how bad it went for the Bears at the packers not that long ago and the late throw, but seeing a quarterback and a coach who was a play caller grow together. What are some of the things that you noticed throughout the course of this season where, you know, clearly this is heading in the right direction, but I doubt even, you know, scratching the surface of what you would expect out of a quarterback in Ben Johnson's offense?

[Jon Gruden]

Well, Ben Johnson has proven that he's made a huge impact. I mean, the negative plays are disappearing the sacks. He's reduced his sack number tremendously. He's not holding the ball as long. And I'll say this too. They went out like we talked about earlier and they addressed the offensive line. They brought in some really good free agent lineman. They drafted another lineman in the second round. They have a very good supporting cast at wide receiver with Odunze, even though he's hurt. DJ Moore is a hell of a player. The Kid Burden's a good young player. And I love their two tight ends. So they have surround him with a really good system. They put him underneath the center. I think that they're leaning on the running game and that's a quarterback's best friend running the football. And that's something the Bears are doing as good as anybody. And it's set up some easier throws, I think play action passes, and they're a balanced offense. But I give Ben Johnson credit for improving Caleb's fundamentals, improving his decision making and eliminating negative plays. And his defense has been tremendous. That might be the best thing Ben Johnson has done, is hire Dennis Allen. Because when you get 30 turnovers, you're going to be in the money.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, it is funny. And we talk about the quarterbacks all the time. It's like, hey, Bo Nix, is he really good? It's like, well, Denver's defense is terrific. Other than this last, you know, five game stretch that we're talking about Jags and you're like, you do realize the Jags are over. That same stretch is like the best defense. Whether it's Stroud and feeling like Caleb is surrounded with things where, you know, it must be tough. It must be tough when you're dealing with somebody as talented as Caleb is. Maybe he had a fall on his face that first year, which would be expected. So I'm not even looking at it like it was some complete disaster. The off season stuff is just wild too. When you think about that deep dive where there's like 20 sources saying, this guy sucks. Like, imagine being that guy going like, I'm getting ready for the start of the season. So maybe all this stuff helped and, and was part of it. But there's, there's clearly support around Caleb also, like, it's probably easier for Caleb to kind of change some of his habits, realizing how much better all the other parts of the game are for him.

[Jon Gruden]

And I think we got to remember this is the number one pick in the draft. We're not talking about an average Joe. He's a great talent, he's elusive, he's strong. This guy's tough to tackle in any situation and he has a lot of guts. And I just think the Bears are proving they can get it done in cold weather. You know, Detroit, Ben Johnson and golf, they got to play in a dome. It was a beautiful, perfect condition to throw the ball every week. He did that 46 yard bullet to DJ Moore in overtime. It was zero degrees wind chill. That was impressive as hell, man.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, that's that. Those are the kind of throws from him that I expected to see just because I had seen him in college. And I was like, that's something that I can work with. But the rest of it has to be kind of in line. And you're right on it with the sack numbers. They're not even close. It's like two completely different people. And I think we both agree that, like one of the default things for a young, athletic quarterback is if I could just keep the play alive, then I'll find a way. And in the NFL, it's like, more often than not you're just going to be taking sacks, negative plays, or behind the sticks, and then we're just not going to Move the football. So he's, he's gotten a ton of that stuff out of his game. Basketball season is here, which means the excitement of being in the stands before tip is here too. The Game Time app gives the advantage back to fans. It's the hack for unlocking amazing tickets and experiences in a few taps. It's incredibly easy to use and the Game Time guarantee means you can Trust you'll get 100% authentic tickets on time and at the best price. Plus fees are always included. So what you see is what you pay. Looking through the app, I see Rockets Clippers tickets are starting at $58 and for me that's a convenient game. I always look at the Clipper schedule and I'm like, what do you got for me? Rockets doing a little Christmas two step in the City of Angels because then the Rockets will be at la. That's on Christmas night. So yeah. What are you doing, Rockets fans? I'm spending the holidays in Los Angeles as the Rockets try to turn things around after that blown game. The Denver loss makes sense. In overtime, that blown game to New Orleans. Then they win the rematch at Denver, but then to lose to Sacramento in overtime. So a little overtime fest for the Rockets here a little bit. See if maybe we can't cut down on that time here in Los Angeles. Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account and use the code RESILLO for $20 off your first purchase terms. Apply again, create an account and redeem code Russello R U S S I l l o for 20 dol Download the Gametime app today I want to talk about Seattle a little bit because that might be the game of the year. Especially when you consider the comeback, the weird replay, then the fact that the number one seed is all on the line here. When I look at what Seattle's doing, you know, run success rates, that kind of stuff, like it's not great. We know, we know kind of who they are. But when you aren't necessarily a great running team but your quarterback is like off the charts play action, how do you, how do you make that work? Because clearly they're making it work. Even if the play action numbers for Darnold are so much better than just the normal drop back stuff, I think.

[Jon Gruden]

You got to remember sometimes a good run is three yards. A good run, a real good run is four yards. And the difference between Seattle being 28th in the league in yards per carry and 15th is really one long run. That's the one thing Charbonneau doesn't do, he doesn't make the long runs. Kenneth Walker made one the other night. But a couple long runs will put this running game right back into circulation. The one thing Seattle hasn't done well is eliminate the negative yardage runs. They've got a lot of yards that have lost a lot of running plays that have lost yardage, and that's kind of surprising. But the running game, if you stay with it, you can stay in normal down and distances. And you know, this third and three, third and four is a lot better than third and 13. So Seattle, when you look at them, they're not behind in the chains a great deal. And Sam Darnold has, Mike, maybe the best receiver in the league. I mean, they use this guy creatively too. Man, he's in the backfield, he's in the slot, he's in motion. They do a great job with their play action attack strategically using this receiver and just enough running game to keep it honest and keep things balanced.

[Ryan Roso]

So you have to, even though it's your default and you're like, hey, we know our guys, like 12 and a half yards, I think, I think that's 12.4 on yards per attempt on play action. You have, you have to know like, you, all the coaches, you have to know, like, hey, we can't, we can't just default to this stuff all the time because then they're going to start ignoring the whole thing. Because I think that's happened in the past with golf sometimes too, where it's like, yeah, I know what the play action numbers are, but, you know, we can't just, we can't just call play action every single time. So I imagine that's something you guys are kind of mapping out a little bit, right?

[Jon Gruden]

And I think I've been to Seattle several times to play. Not one time has it been perfect conditions. I think you got to run the ball in Seattle to have an opportunity to control the game in the weather. Marshawn did it, Sean Alexander did it, Ricky Waters did it. And the Seahawks are trying not necessarily to replicate the success of those guys, but they are committed to it. They're running the ball 50% of the time, and it helps. Gray Zable at left guard. He's a rookie Cross at left tackle. This guy can pull. He can execute a lot of blocks. They have a young center in there. Bradford at right guard has had ups and downs. Lucas at right tackle. You don't want to be dropping back the pass, trying to throw for 350 a game. I think when you play the Rams, let's shorten down the ranks. Let's slam the ball at these guys, and let's fake it to these guys that throw it over their head. I love what they're doing. And they're getting time of possession, which keeps this defense humming, man. And when they're on the grass, they are really the straw that stirring this drink.

[Ryan Roso]

And I just think about, like, the one seed where the Rams playing up the street here, perfect conditions versus having to play out at Philadelphia last year. You know, when they're in that game against, you know, the ultimate champs there, and you're like, man, the Rams still have a chance at this thing here at the end. How different do you feel about who gets out of the NFC based on home field? I mean, does that change everything?

[Jon Gruden]

I think it's wide open. I think anything goes this year in the playoffs. Philadelphia after beating the Raiders. I know it was the Raiders, but they look like they got their swag back. I think when Lane Johnson comes back, I think the Eagle offense will look different. I really do. Saquon will look different. Hurts is thrown for 24 touchdowns. That's the career high for him. A lot of people think their passing game is. Is bad. Arguably, it's better than it has been. They still have a lot of guys that can hurt you. And defensively, Fangio is going to limit you, no matter who you are, to 20, 23 points or less. And it's a credit to the Bears, as you know, for what they did, running it down their throats. But other than that game, they're still, I think, the top team to beat in the nfc.

[Ryan Roso]

So you're still on the Eagle side of this thing.

[Jon Gruden]

Hard to believe I'm saying that, but yes, I am. I just think world champions know what it's like. I think they have the ability to raise their level of play in the big games, but obviously they're going to have to go on the road and prove they can do it in LA or in Seattle or potentially even in Chicago.

[Ryan Roso]

They did run the. They did run the ball really well yesterday, which is kind of nice, you know, I mean, I know we're not talking about a great opponent here, but I mean, just anything, anything that looks like some sort of semblance of balance, which opens things up for Hurt so much more. Um, and we've talked about the old line stuff that you're referencing there. The year after you win. I mean. I mean, this is a little different because it was back to Back appearances, you know so well. Two appearances in three years. You wonder, like, can you tell. Can you tell the personality of your team pretty early on being like, hey, we have the right group of guys. I don't know about like. Or these guys are just not about the right things this year. I mean, what's that like when you're a coach?

[Jon Gruden]

Well, it's. It's a journey. You got peaks and valleys during the season. You got to respond to injuries, you got to respond to bad calls. Bad weather. The schedule is the shit sometimes. I mean, you're playing in London, you're playing on Thursday, you're playing across the country, you're playing on Saturday. So there's a lot of distractions. There's a lot of things you can't predict that you got to adapt to. You got to have a mentally tough group of guys. And sometimes when I watch Philadelphia, I wonder if these guys really like each other, because there's not a lot of engagement on the sidelines. But this team knows how to win. And when you have a quarterback that can run it and throw it, God help you. I just think they're a hell of a football team. But you're always redefining your character of your team. But winning. Winning is the best way to advance everything.

[Ryan Roso]

What is your favorite offensive system that you see right now on Sundays?

[Jon Gruden]

Man, that's a good question. I like Detroit. I know a lot of the coaches there. A lot of those guys work with me in the past. I love the way they train. Jared Goff, he's a pocket passer. I think winning in the pocket, those are the offenses that I love to watch some of the scrambling play, making wild things. You can't count on that unless you have one of those guys like Josh Allen, Mahomes or Lamar. But I do like watching the Detroit Lions play. I'm. I'm really excited with Seattle. I like some of the action that they have in their offense. Obviously, Sean McVay and I work together. Kyle, Shannon, Hannah and I work together. So those are the teams I spend the most time looking at. And I like Ben Johnson stuff, obviously.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

Is it. Does it bum you out that Mahomes is. I mean, look, we don't want him to be hurt, right on top of everything else. But a playoff season without Mahomes. Have you prepared yourself? Because I'm not prepared.

[Jon Gruden]

Yeah, I. I am shocked. I mean, you think about Pat Mahomes and Lamar Jackson not being in the playoffs. Joe Burrow's not going to be in there. But Mahomes just doesn't seem like football without him in there. No.

[Ryan Roso]

And that's where I'm at with this Josh Allen thing, where I keep thinking, like, all right, Burrow's not going to be there. Mahomes is going to be there. I mean, the chances of Baltimore getting in and winning the division are pretty slim. I mean, it's not impossible, but it doesn't look great considering some of the matchups. They'll have to close this whole thing. And I'm like, all right, well, all those guys are gone for Josh Allen. But I can't. I can't get past that Bill's defense. Like, I may be. I may be going from being incredibly dismissive of Jacksonville to maybe when this whole thing gets started, I just. I don't know. I can't believe it. I can't believe I'm so close to maybe picking Jacksonville and having. Having some respect for this franchise that, you know, they've been keeping track of everybody disrespecting him. And I'm like, go ahead, keep track of all of it. But that might be kind of this full circle moment here as we have two final weeks of the season.

[Jon Gruden]

Yeah, it's hard to bet against Josh Allen. It's hard. And as you say, if there ever was a year for Buffalo to do it to get to the super bowl, this is the year without Mahomes and Lamar and without Joe Burrow. But as you said, there's always another fighter. There's always another guy that's taking off his cape and getting in the ring. And some of these guys have been paying their dues. They've been working their asses off, man. And Trevor Lawrence is the number one overall pick. And every once in a while, if you're not careful, you get your block knocked off by the unexpected. And I think there's some young quarterbacks that are on the rise, and I think that's what makes this game this season really exciting.

[Ryan Roso]

If you have something going into a playoff matchup, like, we even saw this a little bit with Oklahoma and Alabama, if you're, if you're up for it. But you see how bad Alabama's rushing attack is going up against this awesome Oklahoma defense against the run. And granted, they got a little bit more work done than anybody would have expected with that matchup. Alabama comes back, you know, great win for them. But when you see something where you're like, we probably won't be able to do this, do you still want to see if it. If you can't Just to be able to show it early, just to be able to not be one dimensional when you're coming out on the field so soon. Even if it makes no sense that you have an advantage on that part of the ball.

[Jon Gruden]

No, you know, you're not going to. Bill Walsh said a long time ago, let's not save any bad ideas. You know, if we're playing the Pittsburgh Steelers back in the day, we would throw the ball 45 to 55 times. We would know that going in. We would tell our players, make sure you take your salt tablets and Gatorade, because we are going to run you guys, man, we ain't running it. We're going to throw the ball 50 times in this game. And I think that's how you have to be sometimes. You know, you got to play to your strengths, but you also got to appreciate and understand the strengths of their defense. Now, there are some predictable situations where we are going to have to run the ball, maybe to run the clock, situations like that. But to your point, that's. That's part of individual game planning. Every week is different.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. God, I love that. What else do you got? Any other great story time stuff going back to, like, your first impressions? Do you think, like the people that were the most impressed, like, made the most impression on your philosophy is becoming a head coach, being like, you know what? I want more of what that guy's telling me?

[Jon Gruden]

Well, you know, I was fortunate as a young guy and I encourage all the young coaches out there to try to find the position that you want to coach and try to surround yourself with the best people possible to train you. I got to go to Tennessee, work with Walt Harris, and I got a job with the 49ers as a young guy. I was the first quality control guy. I didn't even know what quality control was. I was one of the very. I think I was the very first guy to start drawing the plays in the computer. Everything had been hand drawn for years and years.

[Ryan Roso]

How old were you?

[Jon Gruden]

I was 20, 28, 29 years old. I'm working for the 49ers. We go out there. Eddie DeBardlo was the owner, the best of all owners. There was no salary cap then, so we had Joe Montana in his prime. How about the backup quarterback was Steve Young. Hall of Famer Steve Bono was the third strength quarterback. And we played a 34 defense and in a 3, 4 defense, you gotta have a nose tackle, a guy that can kick the center's ass. So we had Michael Carter, we got Jim Burke from the New York Giants and Fred Smurlis. We had the Buffalo Bills best. We had three of the best nose tackles in the freaking world, and only one of them can play at a time. But being in that environment, watching these coaches coach and watching these players practice, you got to understand Ronnie Lott wasn't just a great player. The way he practiced was insane. And Jerry Rice practiced harder than Ronnie. And Roger Craig might have practiced just as hard as the others. The work ethic, the way the 49ers did things, it just had such a huge impact on me. The way they installed plays, the way they. It's not the plays. It's how we practice the plays. They were creative. They stimulated their players. They mix things up. They traveled with class. That was the cutting edge of football. It'll never be that way again. I'm just glad I got to see it.

[Ryan Roso]

How did you get the job so young, John?

[Jon Gruden]

Well, my dad coached with John McVeigh, who was the general manager of the 49ers, and my dad coached at Notre Dame. My dad recommended Joe Montana to John McVay. So I think Coach McVeigh returned a favor to me because my dad drafted Steve Young with the Buccaneers when he was the personnel director. And guess who my dad traded Steve young to? The 49ers. So the 49ers had some pretty good quarterbacks. So I think Coach McVeigh did me a favor, I guess, in return.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, well, I guess. I guess for Joe Montana, it's worth it. I think that. I think that's a good price.

[Jon Gruden]

You know what? It was just unbelievable watching them. And I just want to tell you this. The terminology of the 49er system was very verbal. A lot of words, shifts, motions, different protections, very lengthy stuff. And we were famous for having game plans where you could play a doubleheader with. We had 125, 140 passes, 30 different running plays, 15 or 20 audibles, and there was no quarterback to coach. Walkie talkie, I couldn't say, hey, Ryan, Ryan, let's run trips. Right, 76, Dusty X out. I had to signal the play, and Montana had to memorize all the formations. So Joe would sit there on Wednesday in the room, and he would watch Holmgren and Bob McKittrick install all these plays. And then he would go out in the walkthrough 45 minutes after the meeting, and he didn't want anybody to tell him anything, just give me the play. He would memorize every formation. He had the quickest mind of anybody. I've ever seen. He was awesome, man.

[Ryan Roso]

I love Joe Montana stories. I can listen to him all day. Well, let's do it again. Let's have some Joe Montana stories. Next time we catch up. Enjoy the close of the regular season. We'll see you in the playoffs. All right, John. Thanks, man.

[Jon Gruden]

Happy Christmas to you too. Nice meeting you again. See ya.

[Ryan Roso]

Cracker Barrel is home to all the more country anytime. That means buttermilk pancakes whenever you want.

[Kyle]

Want them.

[Steve]

Homemade classics like chicken and dumplings and a country store full of fun finds.

[Ryan Roso]

Swing by and visit Cracker Barrel today.

[Kyle]

You want details?

[Steve]

Fine. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet.

[Ryan Roso]

What's up?

[Kyle]

I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork.

[Steve]

I have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required.

[Ryan Roso]

Life Advice, lifeadvicermail.com We've got Kyle, we've got Steve. We've got a lot of Christmas themed ones here. Maybe we just try to get them in for the holidays. How's everybody doing, by the way?

[Kyle]

Speaking of Christmas theme, look at you today.

[Ryan Roso]

What are you talking about?

[Steve]

Dirty Santa Claus.

[Kyle]

What do you mean? You got a green.

[Steve]

What?

[Kyle]

Looks like some sort of Santa looking coat. You got a red shirt under there. You're rocking green and red. I mean, I know you're not like a super festive guy, but seem like.

[Steve]

You got a lot more beard than I was expecting you to have too. I just don't know. I don't know. Maybe your pace is faster than mine, but I just feel like I just.

[Ryan Roso]

Saw you and I wasn't expecting this. I know. We did just see each other. It wasn't that long ago, so. I don't know.

[Kyle]

It's like the Santa Claus when he just shaves it and comes right back. Yeah, in the Christmas season, you know.

[Steve]

Hell yeah. Great callback.

[Ryan Roso]

Now I feel like. Well, I can't shave it off now because this Tuesday. Yeah, noted. Noted.

[Kyle]

To know if you were like moonlighting as like Santa on the side or.

[Ryan Roso]

Something, I think I'd be on some sort of watch list, wouldn't you?

[Kyle]

Is that Rosilla?

[Ryan Roso]

Hey, guys.

[Kyle]

He's at the mall.

[Ryan Roso]

What's your name? Steven.

[Kyle]

Oh, you want an iPad?

[Ryan Roso]

This guy looks like he's probably going to nail a parlay. He'll probably get you an iPad. Do you think Gabe Vincent has anything left? Not at all.

[Kyle]

Nope.

[Ryan Roso]

Not at all, buddy. See what kind of steamy Lakers fan response we can get to that observation. God, are they fucking annoying. Just every. No, no, you're right. Jackson Hayes is awesome.

[Kyle]

Your boy Jackson Hayes.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. So I probably wouldn't do Santa in person. At least around Torrance or something.

[Steve]

You could be like, lifeguard Santa. Do they do that in the beach communities?

[Ryan Roso]

Like Lifeguard Santa, Lifeguard Santa. Probably.

[Steve]

There's big, like, fire. Fire Company Santa around here. They just ride around the trucks and there's Santa throwing stuff at candy canes and stuff at the kids. To the kids. Not at the kids, but yeah, it's a big east coast thing. I don't know. Is there anything out there at Beach Community Santa that's like a little bit its own flavor?

[Ryan Roso]

I probably should try to figure out more than three days before Christmas if there's something I could do for the community. I did a toys thing. I did a donation thing, so I feel good about that part. But, like, real man hours, boots on the ground, man hours. Maybe I just dress up. Maybe just BYOs. Just dress up as Santa tomorrow at the farmer's market when I go to get fruit. Just start asking kids what's on their mind. And then what happens? Yeah. What if you don't have a permit?

[Steve]

Yeah. I dropped a tenor at the Salvation army out front of. Right out in front of Acme. So I feel good about that whole 10 bucks.

[Kyle]

It's hard to say no to that. I mean, the guy's out there with the bell, right? And you're just like, he knows. He knows you have something on him.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I don't know. Sometimes I see these guys, I'm like, you know, I've had to do community service before. Is there a chance that this is why you're here?

[Ryan Roso]

I don't know.

[Kyle]

I mean, because I'm saying it's not legit.

[Steve]

I had to do community service for the Salvation army, and I had to clean, like, I don't know, 80 pairs of roller skates in the summer one time because I had. I had to do a bunch of community service. And that was Salvation Army. So I was thinking it's like, maybe some of these guys aren't just, like, out here because they're given time. They might be, like, knocking some points off their license or something here. I don't know.

[Kyle]

Ebenezer Scrooge over here.

[Steve]

Like, I'm just saying, some of the.

[Kyle]

Guys not doing it for the love of the game.

[Steve]

The guy in front of Acme didn't look like he was doing it for the love of the game. That's all. I'll say.

[Kyle]

All right.

[Ryan Roso]

I'll never look at his Santa. Same again.

[Steve]

Just the Salvation army ones.

[Kyle]

Just those guys.

[Ryan Roso]

We get an unsanctioned Sam here. All right. Christmas ruined. That was the headline. Ryan, 32. 510, 135. Gym stats, rarely bench. Last time. 155. Five times player comp. 510. Redheaded, slightly. Slightly underfed. Kyle Korver.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Ryan Roso]

5, 10, 135. I live in Hawaii. I work a lot, watch a lot of sports, mostly keep to myself. I don't get too high or too low. I don't look forward to much. Jesus. Not to be depressing. Too late.

[Kyle]

All right.

[Ryan Roso]

But holidays, birthdays, special occasions, none of it really does anything for me except Christmas. Okay. Christmas is the one day of the year where I consistently walk away thinking, yeah, that was actually special. I don't over romanticize things, but it's the one time I genuinely slow down. I haven't been home in almost a year. Took time off of work to come back and was legitimately excited because I really miss being a part of our family dynamic. Yeah, you know, you're starting to get to that age where you're like, you know, this is actually. These people are all right in my book. It's always been very intimate. Mom, dad, brother, sister, aunt, grandparents, small group, family rhythm, familiar rhythm. Family rhythm probably works too. Same couch, same house, same vibe. That's the whole appeal. My parents house is very small. One bathroom tight. That's small. Christmas has always been just the core group. Obviously mine or my siblings, significant others would attend as they come in and out of our lives with nothing more. Then a few days ago, my mom told me my brother asked if his brother asked if his fiance's parents could come, which my mom ended up reluctantly agreeing to. I wasn't thrilled after hearing this, but I know that no one else was either. So I talked myself into it. Fine, I'll sit on the couch, watch basketball, deal with the crowd and still try to have fun. Then today I found out that her brother is coming too. That blew the top off of things. So now we're at 12 people. There are only seven comfortable seats in the house. It's in the Midwest, so I'll be stuck inside. It's becoming less Christmas and more airport gate delay. Sitting on the floor while people I don't even know have a good spot in the couch at a good angle. The tv. This guy's so pissed off. Here's the real issue though. The family dynamic. I'm outspoken I don't fake enthusiasm. Well. If something bothers me, it shows. I usually express it. My brother, on the other hand, is extremely sensitive. Because of that, no one ever pushes back on him. My mom agreed to all of this largely to avoid hurting his feelings. I challenged her by saying, if I tried to bring this many extra people into that house, everyone would have immediately said, you're fucking insane. But because it's him, everyone tiptoes. Meanwhile, the one holiday I care about and my first time being able to be with a family in a year gets quietly turned into a stress test. I've basically told my family that since no one else is willing to say anything, I will not to start a war because I won't be able to sit there all day and act like it's all good if it isn't. Well, that's going to go great. Don't be a bitch. Come on. Yeah, they're all telling me to chill and not ruin Christmas, but I feel like it is. It's already ruined. Am I being unreasonable for being pissed? Valid if I say something, or is this just one of those situations where you accept you'll be the villain regardless? Do I shut up and just be a grown up? P.S. i'm only there for like a week, which I will spend time with them all individually, but really the only opportunity to have everyone together anyway. I love the show. All right.

[Steve]

Welcome to having brothers and sisters, by the way, and not being the favorite one or the kid gloves one. Like, surprise. You're just figuring this out now, but that's just how it is.

[Ryan Roso]

Hot.

[Steve]

Different rules for different people. I thought you would have known that even though everybody loves everyone equally, let's just. Let's just say there's different rules. I wouldn't say anything. You could do stuff, right? You could do stuff. You said one bath. There might be something there that might.

[Ryan Roso]

Flipping. Flipping their plates.

[Steve]

No, no.

[Ryan Roso]

Walking away.

[Steve]

I mean. I mean, just don't hold back. Be your. Be your normal self. And like, you're saying, obviously don't say, you know, you guys weren't even supposed to be here, but you know, do.

[Ryan Roso]

It's like, say.

[Steve]

Say you're.

[Ryan Roso]

I wasn't bad for Christmas that I'm not even officially recognizing with all these people. Right, Right.

[Steve]

Just be yourself and, you know, there's one bathroom. Maybe there's something going on there. You know, don't light a match, see what happen. Like, I. I guess I'm just saying, like, there might be something where you're like, all right, we tried this thing, it felt a little crowded. And, you know, maybe they won't come here next year. Like, it's also the last thing I'll say, and I'll be done. You don't only have to go home on Christmas. I mean, you've seen what I did for five, six years. I mean, vacation in Poughkeepsie exclusively. So, you know, there must be. There's probably a happy medium between only coming home for a week on Christmas and spending your summer vacation in your hometown. So maybe you won't feel so, like, bent out of shape if Christmas isn't perfect every year. So thanks for listening, though.

[Kyle]

Yeah, it obviously sucks, but, like, what if they don't have anywhere else to go, man? Like, what if. I don't know, you know, I guess you could say, hey, the three of them can hang out by themselves. But, like, this is kind of what. This is, the point of the time of year. It's not for you to be an asshole. It's for, like, you to be welcoming. And Kyle, I think Kyle hit it, right? Like, you know, there's the sibling dynamic. Like, you know, you just kind of have to shut up and take it sometimes. And you don't. You certainly don't do it in front of other people. You certainly don't do it. You know, call people out during the holidays. I think you're going to get there. People are going to realize how tight it is, how much it sucks. And everyone's going to kind of get the vibe, maybe it doesn't happen again next year. But, like, you to just, like, be like, hey, I have to say something about this. Like, I don't think you have to say anything about it. I think you just. I think everyone's going to know. It might not be awesome. And then next year, if it happens again, then, like, nobody learned their lesson. But it feels like it's one of those things where people might learn their lessons this year about how terrible this was. So I don't know. I'm not the big, like, ruin the Christmas guy just to say what needs to be said, because I don't think it really necessarily needs to be said. People get the. I think they'll get the hint. And then, you know, hopefully you just don't, you know, hope we don't get any fights with you, because the whole point of this time of year is not to fight your family. And then to Kyle's point, yeah, maybe you should come during the summer, because the holidays, like, everyone gets together. It's just like, this breeding Ground for people being mad at each other because they're not normally in these confined spaces together. But you chose to come here, man. Like, you don't live around here. This is your. You chose this life to come here once a year, however often you come, you said you haven't been there in a year. Like, this is also kind of on you. You could live there and not have to deal with this and just go home. But that's not how you chose to live your life. So I don't know. I think. I think you got to kind of just take it and, you know, eat this one and not really say much.

[Steve]

Yeah, dude. And wear that brother badge differently. Like, you're the one who nobody really needs to use the kid gloves on. Like, whatever probably made you stronger. You know, I always say, like, my sister used to be able to, like, say she had a headache and not go to school. I remember one time I flushed my puke in the toilet. My dad didn't believe me, and he was like, you're going to school. I was like, I forgot to save the evidence because he didn't thought I was faking it. So it's just like, you're. There's different rules for you. Wear it as a badge of honor and just, you know, harder. Tough for everything. Shout out to Tom Brady.

[Kyle]

It's the old, if you don't feel good, just go to the nurse. Like, I currently don't feel well. I'm throwing up right now. Don't even go to the nurse.

[Steve]

Shouldn't have flushed it, bro. Now I can't prove it.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, this guy's really worked up. I mean, that was a long, intense email about things. And I think he wrote that email expecting that we were all going to say, yeah, live your truth. Have your voice be out there. And I don't feel that way at all, man. Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from, but I had a situation one Christmas where it was like three different versions of Christmas. I hadn't been home in a while, so I was home. And then there's this fucking guy around. And he. He was able to come to all three versions. And I was like, are you serious with this? I didn't say it to his face. Sister's boyfriend.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

And I didn't like him.

[Kyle]

Yeah, you don't say.

[Ryan Roso]

I was like, so you're coming. You're coming to all three levels of this thing. I was like, we can't get a break from this guy in one of them.

[Kyle]

Did you express that at the Family function.

[Ryan Roso]

I didn't say in front of people, but I said it to a person.

[Kyle]

I think you have to be an adult and just be mad to yourself. Like, just be mad and just suppress it. That's like, that's what, that's what you do in these cases. I don't think.

[Ryan Roso]

Well, it sucked, but he didn't have anywhere to go. But I personally thought it was something that was really selfish by a sibling to be like, I'm just. This guy's come into everything and he wasn't really in the picture at all. And next thing you know, he's at Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and then Christmas dinner.

[Kyle]

Best secret Santa gift. You're like, what, this?

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. No, I just get hooked up too, because everybody was sort of scrambling, trying to figure out like, oh, I didn't know. And then after. After edition three of it, I went to one of my other sisters and I was like, what the going on here, by the way? I was like, we can't get a break from this guy. She was like, well, you know, this whole thing. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, how old were you.

[Kyle]

And how old was she?

[Ryan Roso]

40. And then 30 maybe. Oh, what do you mean?

[Kyle]

I thought I was gonna be younger.

[Steve]

I thought you were gonna be like. Yeah, I was visiting. I was back from college.

[Ryan Roso]

No, no, no, it wasn't that long ago. I mean, it was 10 years ago.

[Steve]

Yeah. Oh, wow.

[Ryan Roso]

Okay.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Ryan Roso]

You guys think I was wrong?

[Steve]

No, I just the, the way that you were just like, it just seemed like you were telling me your 25 year old feelings, not your 40 year old feelings. I would agree, but there's nothing. Feelings or feelings, man. Can I just say one thing?

[Ryan Roso]

Some of those early twenties Christmases were just. Just rough.

[Steve]

You were the guy who's doing the.

[Ryan Roso]

No, the guy that we're talking about. My parents are split up. Yeah. And like, you. You leave for college and then you come back and you're like, what the happened here? It's been three and a half months. Like, what's going on here? Next thing you know, you're living in a. You're sleeping in a spare room, you.

[Steve]

Know, hightailing it between houses.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. Like I'm living with a bunch of framers because there's an empty bed there and because your house is sold. You're like, what the fuck's going on? All right, that sucks. Yeah. So those are. Those are really rough. I don't. I don't look back on those days. It's like A ton of envy. Like, man, I missed those. So look, how about that be the lesson? You didn't have it that bad, bro. So can I ask you this?

[Kyle]

Was your. Was the third you. So you're 40? He was, like, in his 30s. Was he, like, pumped to be there? Did he realize kind of how uncomfortable the situation was, too?

[Steve]

Because sometimes kind of a nothing guess.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, I think he should have taken a hand. Yeah. I don't think he should have gone.

[Kyle]

To all SAT one out.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Okay.

[Ryan Roso]

Because it was like, oh, all right, we're doing this. And then it was the next day, and I was like, all right. And then I was like, okay, but now we got to go back here and do dinner here. And I was like, great. And then I was like, he's here again. I was like, nobody even knows this guy.

[Kyle]

So what's his name?

[Steve]

Yeah, there's a T shirt in there somewhere.

[Ryan Roso]

He didn't last long either. He didn't. Nobody even knows this guy. You know, like, I don't think I would ever play.

[Kyle]

Yeah, they got married. Yeah. A couple of kids.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Steve]

No, Ryan's like, no, I called it.

[Ryan Roso]

No, he's actually. He's living here with me now. We get along great now. That first Christmas, that was rough. Yeah. So, look, man, I would tell you this. You're not wrong to feel the way you feel here, but if you drop this just atomic bomb of emotions on everybody, especially day of. Or day before, like, you want to get weird. Get. Get mad after. Yeah. You know, like, you're gonna have to hold this one in, I think.

[Kyle]

Yep.

[Steve]

Yeah. Maybe take your dad's temperature on it after and then decide whether or not you want to actually say something to your brother once all the fun stuff is over. But, yeah, certainly there's gotta be an embargo on pretty much all these emotions.

[Ryan Roso]

Can you buy some, like, collapsible chairs, some folding chairs from, like, a Walmart or something? Bring in 5 extra.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Maybe like, Matt, be like, oh, we gotta use the cheap chairs. We usually have enough. But, God, this one. This isn't good. We. We never use these chairs. Cause we only really have enough for us. Small house, obviously one bathroom.

[Kyle]

What if the people are, like, really nice, too? They come over and they bring all these great food.

[Steve]

That's what I was.

[Kyle]

You know, like, I. I'm with you. Like, I'd be annoyed, too, but I. You just can't. You can't. You can't be an asshole. You can't do that. I think people are going to Know the deal the day after, you can maybe. You can maybe just say, hey, I knew it. I knew it. This is bs. I mean, as somebody who, like, I have. I. We have the in laws over with my parents and a bunch of extended family. Just because it's, like, easier, especially now with two kids, like, I kind of love it. I know this is a different scenario, but, like, I don't know.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, look, it seems like. It seems like we're over capacity. Just Christmas. And that's the issue. That's the core issue. So y' all know that we're big fans of Cracker Barrel. And this holiday season, I will be sat at their table with a big plate of country fried turkey. And Brandon, I'll be right there with you. And I'll check it off my Christmas list in the country store while I'm at it. It'll make a nice holiday tradition. Oh, that's so cute of you. Enjoy all the more holiday traditions. Only at Cracker Barrel. All right. Life advice. Addicted to saving. I'm 36, married. Player comp would be an older jimmer for debt. 4 daughters, 5 11, 193.7 pounds. Down from a very stable 210 for the last decade, thanks to one simple move. Fasting every Monday like it's a religious observance.

[Steve]

Did he say four daughters? Kind of sped through that, yeah. Okay, cool.

[Ryan Roso]

$4, 5 11, 193.7 pounds. We haven't got a lot of point.

[Steve]

But these guys dialed in.

[Ryan Roso]

Dialed in. Physically, I'm doing fine. Morally. That's where the nickname comes in. Amongst my friends, I'm known as Mr. Two for One. Two for One for Sure. What? Two for One. Not because I'm generous, because I have mild to moderate obsession with getting discounts, freebies, retroactive, wins. It's not about need. It's not even about money. It's about execution. The chase. The feeling that somewhere a system exist and I beat it. I have to add, just for you guys, I'm a highly compensated sales rep for a Fortune 500 company. I don't need to do this. But it's part of what makes me good at my job. I have to get max value. For example, every Christmas or birthday gift my wife buys me, I immediately price match online, like I'm auditing a Fortune 500 expense report. If it's cheaper somewhere else, I call the original store and politely but firmly explain that I'm happy to return it and repurchase. Unless they want to make this easy. I return shoes about A day before the max return window after heavy usage. Gym, basketball, real minutes. I bought the same shoe two years later and returned the old ones in the new box. My wife hates this.

[Kyle]

I hate this.

[Ryan Roso]

Dude.

[Steve]

What do you do at restaurants? What the hell do you find just the amount of steak to eat before you can send it back? What do you do?

[Ryan Roso]

Well, it's crazy you said that, because I see some stuff coming up here down the pipe. She believes it's thievery. I believe it's a loophole with customer service hours at sporting events. I take a massive bite of a hot dog, head back and say, this is ice cold. Any chance I can get a fresh one? Same with beer. Drink half, mention it's stale, request a replacement. Again, it's not the savings, it's the win. The dopamine hit of successful complaint. So here's the question. Am I wrong? Not legally. I'm usually within rules. But spiritually, rationally. Oh, relationally. My wife sees a massive criminal mastermind in gym shorts. My friends see performance art. I see a man refusing to leave value on the table. Is this a harmless quirk that just needs boundaries? Or am I slowly becoming the guy everyone dreads standing behind at the return counter? I genuinely don't know. I know that full price feels like losing, and losing feels personal. I love you guys. Well, thanks.

[Steve]

That'll change.

[Ryan Roso]

I don't know what I'm going to say. I think that might tweak what I'm going to say a little bit.

[Kyle]

I.

[Steve]

But I think I might be irrational, too, because when I'm. I mean, I lose patience when I'm standing behind someone at the return counter real fast. And I think it's irrational for me. Like, I mean, you got, like, two good minutes, and if we're still, like, trying to figure it out, I mean, I'm just. I start getting antsy and. But so.

[Kyle]

Noises.

[Steve]

Yeah, yeah, See if. See if there's someone behind me that wants to, like, lock eyes and be like, this fucking guy. Yeah, you see this fucking guy? Are you serious? Tic tacs. What's the problem?

[Ryan Roso]

Just.

[Steve]

Just take the Tic Tacs you got or whatever it is.

[Ryan Roso]

Like, but these Tic Tacs are cold.

[Steve]

That might just be. It might just be me. This one has a crack in it. I don't know. But I feel like your wife's probably the one who suffers. I mean, does she bring you on date nights? Like, do you guys. How do you guys. Like, if you have a dinner, is someone. If it's your turn to pay. Is there something going on here? Like, but I was going to say boundaries is probably the word, right? Because you got to figure out when it's okay to turn this shit on and not if you got four kids. Maybe you're just. Maybe it started as like a way to ensure a good future, and now it's like, it's a bit of a spiral, I think.

[Kyle]

Yeah. Like, I can appreciate it. I'll say the nice thing first. I can appreciate it. It's like, Sam Presti, trust the process. Like, this is, and it's not about them. Like, you just, you have to keep doing the same thing no matter the scenario. Like, keep executing the same plan. And you're doing that. And I, I do respect that to some degree.

[Ryan Roso]

So not hinky. Presti.

[Kyle]

I'm sorry. Presti. Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

Key.

[Kyle]

Well, what did I say?

[Steve]

Said Presti.

[Kyle]

I mean, I mean, Sam Hankey. My bad.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Yeah, my bad.

[Ryan Roso]

I was gonna say we now trust the process.

[Kyle]

Right? And he's, and he's got a process and he does it and it's just like that Some people are like that. Like, they just, they need, like, the organization in their lives. They do things a specific way and the outcomes are what they are. I do respect that. But, like, think about, like, how, how do you, like, your wife? Like, if you're out with people and your wife has to see you do this in front of other people, think you know how embarrassing that is for her. Like, what is this guy doing? He's like, trying to get a half a hot dog at a, at a game. Like, just eat the hot dog, dude. Like, so I, I, I respect the idea behind this, but the execution, like, you just can't be that guy 24 7. You can't, because it's, it's just not a way to live your life. And other people are going to get so frustrated with you that you're not going to have any. I don't know how you'd be able to maintain, like, a meaningful relationship. Like, if any of my buddies did this, it'd be like, funny at the first couple of times. And then I'd be like, dude, grow up. Like, this is how life is. Like, you get screwed over. I, I get it. Like, hey, Walmart, all these big companies and you, you want to stick it to the man by, like, you know, return stuff on, you know, before it's done. I, I, I get that. But, like, you're only kind of like effing with your own mind here. Like, you, you're Going so out of your way to do all these little things. Like, are you. Are you really. I guess he's enjoying it, though. He said the dopamine being hit, so maybe it's drugs for some people. And this is his drug.

[Steve]

He's just not gambling. He's doing this instead.

[Ryan Roso]

I guess that's cool.

[Kyle]

I'd rather he gambled.

[Steve]

So he'll never.

[Ryan Roso]

Right.

[Steve]

Yeah, me too. Like, you'll never have a relationship. I mean, four kids. He's probably not looking for, like the bar from Cheers or something. But you'll never have, like, a relationship with, like, a restaurant, right? That you and your wife have a place and you guys go. Because you're constantly, like, maybe fighting or not fighting this urge to, like, send back this hamburger. And, you know, I wanted to try this instead. Like, you'll never be able to have that sort of, like, relationship because you just keep fucking with people.

[Kyle]

How bad does food have to be for you to return? Like, I would have to have, like a plate full of salt to return food.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

I would just eat it and suck it up.

[Steve]

There was a salt issue once and I think. Yeah, I think I just ate something raw one time too. So I don't even think I sent that back.

[Ryan Roso]

I'll eat something, but if it. If it's done and I won't want it off the bill, just be like, how was it? I'd be like, it wasn't very good.

[Steve]

They're never expecting that.

[Ryan Roso]

They'll be like, oh, well, we could. I'm like, no, no, no, please leave it on the bill. I'm going to tip you well. And, you know, services, in case you.

[Steve]

Actually wanted an answer.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, yeah. I just. I've stopped telling people it was really good when it wasn't. Yeah. But I'm not doing it because I want a discount. I'm not doing it because I want it to be free. And I still tip. Whatever I'm going to tip. Like, I, you know, usually would tip pretty well. You know, I mean, you gotta really up for me to not tip you 20%. Although you go to Denver and grab a cup of tea, they want 45%.

[Steve]

Is there a story? What do you mean?

[Ryan Roso]

Look, I think I'm worried about where this is going. To Seruti's Point. You can justify any of this stuff if you really want to. You're like, oh, it's a big corporation. You say you're at a Nuggets game and you're a ball arena and you're thinking about Corp, the man and you're just like, I got a free hot dog. I got a free half a beer out of these guys. Nobody's rooting for the food purveyor. Right? I just would worry about how often is it getting worse. Because if it's getting worse, I don't know, I wouldn't want to spend this much time doing this stuff. That would be the thing. Especially knowing that your wife is probably like, are you seriously going to keep doing this?

[Steve]

I think his boys are the ones that are really keeping this alive. It sounds like he's saying they think it's performance art. And I feel like he's getting enough positive or just not negative reinforcement.

[Kyle]

That is, they don't have to live with you.

[Steve]

You know, my wife on a date, she doesn't like this and she doesn't like that about me too. You know, I forget to put my clothes in the hamper. Ah, what's the deal? It's just me. My boys like that.

[Ryan Roso]

But, like, you know, even if the friends are kind of into it because they're entertained by it and they think it's funny, if I were to meet your friends, you'd be like, oh, you gotta see what Steve, Starry Steve. You got to see what Steve does. And be like, what does Steve do? And he'd be like, he eats half a hot dog and then he goes back and returns it because he says it's cold. And then he gets a full hot dog. So he actually pays one. He pays for one hot dog, but he gets to eat a hot dog in half. And I would be like, end.

[Steve]

He can't not do it. That's the funny part, is that he can't help himself.

[Ryan Roso]

He loves doing it. You should see his sneakers.

[Steve]

Never more than 90 or 89 days old.

[Ryan Roso]

All right, this is. I think we did this one other time. Where's the line accommodating a mother's request to switch seats with her kids? Love the pod. Been listening since the dual threat days. Thank you. Six foot three, 180, player comp. See, if you're six foot three and you're checking in here, I'm guessing you probably are, like, locked in. What kind of seat I want?

[Kyle]

Definitely, yeah.

[Steve]

I want the seat I got.

[Ryan Roso]

Player comp. Christian Brown, lethal in transition. Great off ball cutter. Can knock down an open three, but if in the lead scoring option, the team definitely has a ceiling. Well said. I recently declined a mother's request to switch seats with one of her kids on a plane. Need a ruling from the group and If I'm the asshole for saying no, I booked a window seat and boarded in the later group. As it came up to my row, mother, seated in the aisle with her young daughter, 3 to 4 years old, in the middle, asked me if I would switch seats with her adolescent son, 12, 14 years old, in the other aisle seat across the way. The crest was made with moderate to loud volume, And I felt quite a few eyes on me in the surrounding seats as I answered. I politely said no, and while I did not feel bad about it, it raised a question. How young would her son need to be for me to be obligated to say yes? I have long legs and strongly prefer the window. Her son was also in the aisle right next to her, which makes the request even weaker in my mind. I think I could reasonably say no unless he was 5 or younger.

[Steve]

Did you peek over and see if he had anything going on, though? Oh, sounds like he didn't.

[Ryan Roso]

I have long legs. We already covered this. He said a PS about another email, but we're just going to leave it alone. I think I could reasonably say no unless he was five or younger. Even then, I think I have a case. Five or younger and you think you have a case? Come on. Shoot. What if the kid's crying because he's, like, freaking out and he's four because he can't see his mom? What do you guys got on this one?

[Steve]

I think it's a lot like our emails. Our emails that we get when we said we did something and they say I would do this. I almost, when I like, I see a lot of videos on planes too, about this stuff, and I don't know what's even real or not on planes. Planes used to be one thing where you're like, oh, that's in a plane. That's definitely not fake. And then you learn there's like these places in Santa Monica you can go. Santa Monica you can go to, like, fake that you're on a plane. Like, private jets, whatever. Like, half of these things are skits. But whenever I see one of those things where it's like somebody's like, not giving up their seat and, like, the mom starts to freak out, I think, like, man, I wish. I wish there'd be a lady like that come up to me when I got all my stuff out of my pockets in the net of my seat, and they're like, can you actually, we'd rather have this. But I don't. I think I might fold. I really don't know. I like, in my Head. I'd like to be like, I'll stand. Stand my ground, but I might fold. I really don't know.

[Kyle]

So it's a window for an aisle.

[Ryan Roso]

Yep.

[Steve]

Already don't want that.

[Kyle]

Well, it's not a window for a middle.

[Steve]

Well, I'll never accept that, actually. No matter, like a veteran baby or something. Two year old kids have to be.

[Ryan Roso]

Like a veteran baby. Baby. That baby.

[Kyle]

Yes.

[Steve]

Like, you have to have. You have to have something extra there.

[Kyle]

It's just a baby in full fatigues.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. Like Desert Storm hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Three.

[Kyle]

I. I would. If I was the parent in this situation, I would not ask.

[Ryan Roso]

Your kid would already be in my window seat because that's the dick move of dick moves. That's when you're getting a. No, that's. It's like, oh, you thought you were going to haze me into a decision I didn't want to make because your kid is. No kid has ever been able to change seats after the fact that, like, you came into the.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Is. I have plugged in on my most recent trip to Tampa. I was flying with two of my buddies and I had the window and my buddy had the aisle and we were like, hoping, hey, like, nobody will take the middle. And somebody did, so that's fine. But we, we got on the plane kind of, kind of late, and there was an old woman sitting in my buddy's aisle seat. And he was like, I think, you know, I think you're. I sat down. I didn't say it works. I'm like, I'm not getting involved.

[Steve]

Hell yeah, dude.

[Kyle]

And so he goes, I think, I think you're in my seat. And this woman is probably 60 or 70. She's like, no, no, no, this is my seat. Like, I picked the aisle. And he shows her. He's like, nope, I'm whatever, 28F. You know, here's my thing. She's like, well, I wouldn't have picked a middle seat. She just said, straight up said that. Like, I wouldn't have picked a middle seat. It's like, but you. But you did, though.

[Steve]

So her seat is in fact the middle.

[Kyle]

It is the middle. And she's like, well, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have picked that. And it's like, it doesn't really matter though. Like, that's your. This is my seat and your seat. And my buddy just got. He got alpha. Like, he didn't have a response.

[Steve]

Sat in the middle.

[Kyle]

He sat in the middle.

[Ryan Roso]

Holy. Yeah.

[Kyle]

Honestly, like, the people that have no shame. Like that. Like, it's. I would say it's 90 too high. Like, most people are just going to give in. I would give in. Like, maybe I'm a, you know, maybe I'm a wuss. I don't know.

[Steve]

She's won enough battle. She knew she could size him up.

[Ryan Roso]

It was just like, no, no.

[Kyle]

Straight up saying, like, I wouldn't have picked the seats. Like, what am I supposed to say to that? Like, all right. Like, I guess I.

[Ryan Roso]

So I wouldn't have picked the seat. Is such insane response, because what do you do? Did she. Did she take a wheelchair to the plane, too?

[Kyle]

No, she was.

[Ryan Roso]

She would have been on the floor.

[Kyle]

She was fine. Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

Yep. And so he's out of control for certain airlines. Like, 20 people that can't walk.

[Kyle]

And.

[Steve]

Then they get up with everyone.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, now you feeling better? Comes and goes, does it? Jesus. Yeah, I think because she stepped up to our guy here. Like, clearly, based on everything this guy is saying, he's just like, I wasn't going to do anything for anybody. And to me, there would be, like, a line. I mean, if it's window, window, you're. What's the difference? A demon. If it's the same thing and it's not the exit row and the extra leg room and all that kind of stuff, and you're just like, no, I want to be in 12. Like, that's. That's somebody you hope you never encounter. That's not what our guy is saying here. This guy's saying, I'm in the window. She's in the aisle right across from her son, and he's in 12 to 14 range. Like.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

And how long is the flight? You know, if it were less than two hours, I might go, Ah, no problem. Because I became a window guy after years and years of being an aisle guy, and window is. I don't even want to tell people. It's so much better.

[Steve]

It's like a whole new world over there, dude.

[Kyle]

So much.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. And then when people say, like, oh, well, I want to have to tell people to get up, it's like, if you got to do it once, everybody's got to get up. All right. Because I would get up for you the other way around. I understand. Like, you know, because we're on the relationship in our little row here, and we're all going to try to be cool and respectful, the whole thing, but just because I prefer a window doesn't mean I'm going to sit here for seven hours. Good Point to.

[Kyle]

To answer our guy's question. I don't think he's an. But I think most people would think he's in the wrong here.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

Not me.

[Ryan Roso]

That kid's 14. Aisle. He's right there.

[Kyle]

That kid's probably like, say, no, I want to be by myself. Leave me alone.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

And he said. She didn't say. Well, you know, he has this. So there wasn't, like, an underlying thing that maybe you should have considered, which is good.

[Ryan Roso]

He has, what, no independence? You think it might be time you start learning something, like a sort of syndrome?

[Steve]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

[Kyle]

I see what you're saying.

[Ryan Roso]

When are you going to cut the leash here, ma'?

[Steve]

Am?

[Ryan Roso]

Look at the fucking kid. He's got a mustache. He's going to be all right. Then you high five the kid. Hit him. Zins.

[Kyle]

Hell yeah, dude.

[Steve]

Zins on planes.

[Ryan Roso]

What a. What a game changer. Here you go, buddy. Yeah, I. I get where you're coming from on this, but I. I think. Yeah, I think it'd be just. You know what would be smart is for us to just come up with, like, the ten commandments of when you can or can't switch with a kit.

[Steve]

I like it, baby. For a couple.

[Kyle]

Yeah. Yeah. What about, like, an elderly couple that gets separated?

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I look at the guy and see if he really. If he's giving me, like, no, I can see if he's like, if I could do him a favor or if he actually does want to be next.

[Ryan Roso]

They may be the dirtiest people in the business, though, right? You know, you ever sitting in first class? And then they're like, oh, you know, we got separated, actually. Oh, really? What happens on your phone when you book it? You get to pick where your seats are, right? Because that's what happens on mine. I pick where the seats are. Supposed to give up a first class seat sit, coach, because you guys are into each other. The first class.

[Kyle]

Someone ever asked.

[Steve]

You never heard this?

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, Yeah, a couple times.

[Steve]

A couple times.

[Kyle]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's. That's.

[Steve]

Oh, what is that? Because one. One person has, like, the points that got upgraded and they're like.

[Ryan Roso]

It's like, well, then don't take the upgrade.

[Kyle]

You know, there's basically no, do you.

[Steve]

Want a 1000% less happy time so I could sit next to my wife? That's crazy.

[Kyle]

Yeah. I don't think there's a scenario first class where I would change. I haven't sat in first class a ton, but, like, that's.

[Ryan Roso]

What about, like, three tours in Fallujah?

[Kyle]

Nah, dude.

[Steve]

Eye patch.

[Kyle]

Sorry?

[Steve]

Eyepatch.

[Ryan Roso]

Eye patch. I was thinking about the eyepatch thing the other day.

[Steve]

In what capacity?

[Ryan Roso]

Well, if you have an eye patch, somebody else with an eye patch, you must. You have to. Don't they stop and be like, let's run through it.

[Steve]

I gotta say. Yeah, I think so.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Like, if you have an old Firebird, you see another one or something, you're like, holy. You gotta pull over at Duncan or something. Right.

[Ryan Roso]

I think Eyepatch is a whole nother level.

[Steve]

Well, yeah, I'm just saying. Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

You see each other, like, across the grocery store, and you're like, just put your down. All right. Go first.

[Steve]

Buy a coffee.

[Ryan Roso]

All right. I think that'll do it for the show today. Yeah, I think so.

[Steve]

We'll come back, we'll circle back on the Ten Commandments. I'd like to put a couple.

[Ryan Roso]

Yeah, yeah. Eye patch may. That may be the one. That may be the clincher. Like, hey, do you mind just popping that up a little bit?

[Kyle]

Follow.

[Steve]

Follow.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Roso]

Well, I haven't been playing much basketball.

[Steve]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Roso]

All right, that'll do it for us. Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Steve. We'll be back. Are we releasing the pod tomorrow or Wednesday?

[Kyle]

Okay. Yeah, we're going to tape it tomorrow, release it Wednesday.

[Ryan Roso]

Fred Warner will be with us for Wednesday's episode, so make sure you check that one out and the YouTube stuff as well. Please subscribe. Ryan Marcillo show, part of the Barstool Network. Chew.