SGA vs. Wemby, Back-to-Back MVPs, Knicks–Cavs & the Flawed Pistons w/ Brendan Haywood, Plus Hornets Coach Charles Lee

Summary

The Ryen Russillo Show (Barstool Sports)

Episode: SGA vs. Wemby, Back-to-Back MVPs, Knicks–Cavs & the Flawed Pistons w/ Brendan Haywood, Plus Hornets Coach Charles Lee

Date: May 18, 2026
Host: Ryen Russillo
Guests: Brendan Haywood, Charles Lee, plus Kyle and Ceruti for Life Advice

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Episode Overview

This episode is a classic Ryen Russillo mix of high-level NBA playoff analysis, historical storytelling, and insider dialogue. Ryen dives deep on the ongoing NBA playoffs, focusing specifically on breaking down the Cavaliers’ win over Detroit, the coming Knicks–Cavs slugfest, and a Western Conference Finals featuring SGA’s Thunder vs. Wembanyama’s Spurs. Former player and analyst Brendan Haywood joins for both tactical insight and championship stories, and, in the back half, Charlotte Hornets’ head coach Charles Lee provides an inside look at organizational rebuilding and player development. The podcast closes with its “Life Advice” segment, offering the usual blend of sincere and tongue-in-cheek guidance with Kyle and Ceruti.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pistons–Cavs Game 7: Diagnosing Detroit's Collapse

Timestamp: 03:11–13:00

• Ryen critiques Detroit’s offensive stagnation and defensive lapses that led to an anticlimactic Game 7 exit.
  • Cleveland’s bigs (Mobley and Jarrett Allen) combined for a dominant stat line (44 points, 9 boards, 7 assists) and set the tone early, aided by Mitchell’s facilitating.
  • “If you want Jared Allen to do all the dirty stuff, hey, a couple times, just spoon feed him a couple dunks … you’d be surprised how much that helps a big man’s confidence.” (Brendan Haywood, 25:24)
• Detroit’s defensive energy and scoring issues were glaring, especially with Jalen Duren and Asar Thompson vanishing offensively.
• Free throw disparity: Ryen acknowledges Detroit fans’ possible officiating complaints but ultimately blames the Pistons’ foul-prone, lackadaisical defense for their demise.

2. Flawed Pistons, Unlocked Cavaliers, and Next Steps

Timestamp: 13:00–18:00

• Ryen argues this Detroit team is “one of the most flawed number one overall seeds in conference I’ve ever seen.”
• Donovan Mitchell, despite playoff inconsistency, is praised for finally escaping “the second-round narrative.”
• Cleveland’s matchup with New York is outlined — regular season contests hint that the Knicks should be “thrilled” Detroit is gone, as Cleveland’s defense is less fearsome and the Cavs’ depth is intriguing.

3. MVP Voting and SGA–Wemby Discourse

Timestamp: 18:00–23:31

• Ryen’s MVP ballot: SGA gets his (voted #1), with Jokic, Wemby, Luka, and Cade rounding out the top five. He notes the difficulty in parsing value when Jokic’s late-season “looked off.”
• The Western Conference Finals get an exercise in “player draft” strategy: If you combined OKC and San Antonio’s rosters, who are the first 16 guys you’d want for this series?
  • Both Ryen and a front-office source have Wemby as the clear #1 pick for a best-of-seven today, even above the back-to-back MVP SGA, recognizing Wemby’s playoff impact.
• Regular season context: Spurs went 4–1 vs. Thunder, but many matchups were quirky with injury/inconsistent lineups.
  • “Wemby wants to stay low, even if his assignment is a floor spacing big... his smarts are just so impressive.” (Russillo, 20:45)

4. Brendan Haywood Interview: Playoff Bigs, Knicks–Cavs, SGA vs. Wemby, and 2011 Finals Stories

Timestamp: 23:31–56:53

a) On Cavs’ Bigs and Detroit’s Shortcomings

• Haywood: Key for Mobley/Allen is early engagement — when guards “let the bigs eat early,” their defensive impact grows.
  • “When you drive the lane, just find me early … it gives me a little bit of rhythm. And yeah, I know I'm not going for 28, but you give me a couple dunks here and there, and now ... I've got a different bop in my step.” (Haywood, 25:24)
• Haywood’s prescription for Detroit: Duren needs to develop more offensively, Detroit must get a true #2 scorer next to Cade, and young Pistons learned the hard postseason difference.
  • “They were guarding Asar Thompson like he had COVID.” (Haywood, 28:29)

b) Eastern Final: Knicks vs. Cavs

• Haywood: Pivotal matchup is Towns avoiding foul trouble, which is traditionally his playoff Achilles heel.
• For Cavs, keep Brunson moving defensively — wear him down like the Pacers did.
• Both Russillo and Haywood pick Knicks in 6.
  • “I have more faith in Jalen Brunson than I do anybody else in this series.” (Haywood, 34:01)

c) SGA or Wemby? Who Goes First

• Haywood takes SGA for THIS series, citing his proven offensive completeness:
  • “Now, you ask me this question in a year, it might be Wemby, but right now, today, give me the Canadian man.” (34:44)
• Haywood is bullish on OKC in 7 (“utmost faith” in the Thunder).

d) Gameplanning for Wemby

• Priorities: Don’t overreact to the jumper, stay physical, “close out short,” and challenge him to beat you with contested jumpers.
• If smaller defenders guard Wemby, get him in “second side action” where he isn't easily fronted; maximize lob opportunities by running him off picks instead of just posting up.

e) 2011 Mavs, Lakers, Heat: How to Attack Superstars

• Lakers: Targeted Gasol/Bynum in pick-and-roll, wore them out with screens. (45:23)
• LeBron/Miami: Forced LeBron out of the paint, made him see “elbows and boxes” — they’d help off anyone (including Wade) to load up the paint, betting on LeBron’s then-shaky outside and post game.
  • “If we keep this guy out of the lane, he's not going to shoot 55% from the field. Because at that point, LeBron, he didn't believe in his three-point shot nearly as much... if we shut down the elbows and boxes on his drives and make him throw the ball to the weak side, we have a way better chance at winning.” (Haywood, 47:53)
• The legendary 2011 Heat cough/fake sick moment: Mavs genuinely used it as disrespect fuel.

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5. Charles Lee (Hornets Head Coach): Building Culture & Player Development

Timestamp: 63:38–85:58

• Lee details the resilience and growth of the Hornets despite early injuries, crediting the front office and performance staff.
• “Culture” — less talk, more action:
  • “Talk is cheap … it is the actual actions that get it done. Are you watching the personnel tape? Are you really prepared?” (Lee, 65:54)
• Collaborative leadership: As head coach, Lee now co-defines priorities with the front office, working with Jeff Peterson (“You’re brought into meetings you wouldn’t have been privy to before” — 67:26).
• Draft and talent: Praises the rookie class, especially Con Knipple (“He just had this look of like, I’m not joking. And I was like, I like this guy.” — 71:01).
• Discusses coaching LaMelo Ball — how hard coaching and defensive expectations led to significant two-way improvement.
  • “If you’re not meeting the standards, then you have to earn to be on the court. And if you haven’t earned that opportunity, you won’t play.” (Lee, 75:30)
• On player development: Establishes tailored onboarding, role clarity, and incremental skill additions (“Player development is the backbone of our culture.” — 81:52).
• Learned playoff lessons from the play-in loss: the team is “proud but pissed.”

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6. Alliance Picks and Life Advice

Timestamp: 57:05–100:00+

• Quick NBA Finals and series odds:
  • Russillo: “OKC at –165 for the NBA championship is a lot of value.”
  • The crew debates Knicks, Cavs, Spurs, and lays out their picks: Cavs +7.5, Harden under 18.5 points, and Mitchell Robinson over 7.5 rebounds.
• Life Advice: Amusing and insightful Q&A on etiquette (arguing with an 80-year-old on the dance floor), relationship conundrums (dating an ex’s friend post-college), and the nuances of post-college transitions and breakups.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the value of feeding big men early (Haywood, 25:24):
  “If you want the dragon to protect the castle, you gotta feed them early… you’d be surprised how much that helps a big man’s confidence.”
• On Asar Thompson being left wide open (Haywood, 28:29):
  “They were guarding Asar Thompson like he had COVID.”
• On Mobley and Allen’s playoff versatility (Haywood, 32:18):
  “They have not one, they have two, two-way bigs … they can switch the pick-and-roll and move their feet with the guard.”
• On SGA vs. Wemby for this series (Haywood, 34:44):
  “Now you ask me this question in a year, it might be Wemby, but right now, today, give me the Canadian man.”
• On 2011 Finals strategy vs. LeBron (Haywood, 47:53):
  “If we shut down the elbows and boxes on his drives and make him throw the ball to the weak side, we have a way better chance at winning.”
• On culture building (Charles Lee, 65:54):
  “Talk is cheap…what are the actions you’re taking to do these things? That’s part of controlling the controllables.”
• On LaMelo Ball development (Charles Lee, 75:30):
  “If you’re not meeting the standards, you have to earn to be on the court. And if you haven’t earned that opportunity, you won’t play.”
• On postseason growth (Charles Lee, 85:44):
  “We’ve got to be proud of what we accomplished…but also be pissed about how we ended.”
• On NBA relationship logic (Russillo, 106:13):
  “If somebody wants to hang out with you, they will hang out with you…if they don’t, they won’t.”

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Important Timestamps

• 03:11: Ryen’s breakdown of Pistons–Cavs Game 7, diagnosis of Detroit’s fundamental flaws.
• 13:00: Reflection on Cleveland’s postseason upside and flaws of regular season seeding.
• 18:00: Ryen’s MVP vote strategy and SGA/Wemby future arc preview.
• 23:31: Brendan Haywood joins for deep playoff and career insight.
• 34:44: SGA or Wemby for this series — Haywood’s rationale.
• 45:23: Classic 2011 Mavs playoff stories, gameplanning Kobe, LeBron, and Bynum/Gasol.
• 63:38: Hornets Head Coach Charles Lee on building a real culture and collaborating with the front office.
• 75:30: Deeper dive into the evolution of LaMelo Ball’s game.
• 81:52: Lee on structuring player development at the NBA level.
• 85:44: Lee’s reflections on play-in adversity and driving future motivation.
• 57:05/100:00: Picks, alliance, and life advice, blending basketball with classic pod banter.

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Tone & Style

The episode flows casually but insightfully—a sharp, conversational style between basketball minds and former players/coaches. It’s self-aware and light-hearted, often witty, but never shies from earnest analysis or tough assessments. The dialogue resonates with attentive fans but includes enough context for newcomers.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode will deeply satisfy NBA aficionados, especially those fascinated by team-building, playoff tactics, and candid player/coach perspectives. Ryen’s mix of sharp solo analysis, authentic interviews with Brendan Haywood and Charles Lee, and the inviting banter in the “Alliance”/Life Advice segments make for a compelling listen and a valuable primer on the NBA’s current landscape and ongoing playoffs.

Transcript

[Ryan Ruocco]

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at the end of the last NBA game each day. See [e-mail] promos Bunch of things that I want to get to here. I don't have a ton of time on last night's win by Cleveland, moving on to the Eastern Conference finals. It just wasn't that great of a game. A couple things that I want to point out if the bigs are going to play like this for Cleveland and you can expect to just pencil them in for what was the combined line here, 44, 9 and 7, 15 to 24 from the floor for Mobley and Jared Allen. That's with 11 missed free throws. There was one point where I was looking at the game in the second quarter and Detroit's like stuck at 35. You're like, are they going to get 40 in the first half? They did, but you're like, all right, Cleveland got off to what, an 0 for 6 start from 3 and then Sam Merrill comes in for a good stretch. He was the Gaines leading scorer. The bigs are dominating Duran again. The free throw disparity was a thing, but there's some free throw stuff that I would look at here in Game five. I didn't like the way the game was called for Detroit. I thought if you were a Pistons fan, you probably had some legitimate beefs from that one. Even though Cleveland took 44 free throw attempts in Game 7, I don't think you have or should have any issue with the officiating whatsoever because I think Detroit, you know, if they're going to survive these games or if they were going to move on, they were going to have to have great defense and they didn't have great defense and they just had a ton of stupid fouls from this team. So bad on D31 personal fouls on the team. I mentioned the officiating thing already. It was just all these factors. Offensive rebounds too, for a stretch there. There was even a play later in the third quarter where they were lining up for free throws and Stu takes it out on Allen. He goes down, then Allen gets another offensive rebound. There just wasn't enough intensity from Detroit whatsoever. And I think sometimes you can just look around and going like, how the hell are we going to score? And then no one's scoring. That that's impacting your defense as well. So Cleveland clear. Clearly the better team, I think the better team moved on, the more talented team moved on. It's just the ups and downs of Donovan Mitchell because I just expect at least like 30 from him every single night, which I know isn't entirely fair. And then kind of this, I mean this is kind of the way it is for a lot of these guys in the league, even some really special players. It's just, oh, hey, this guy had a bad playoff game, this guy had a bad play game. But collectively, if you're going to get this much domination from your two bigs. And Duran, who I think I noticed twice last night where I was like, oh, okay, maybe he's, maybe he's going to show up because he was terrific in game six. There was some real intention from Duran where you're like, you know, sometimes you're just going to have to go, man. Like even if there's people in front, you're just going to have to go. And Duran finishes the playoffs with a 10, 10 and 8.5. So 10 points per game, eight and a half rebounds, 51% from the floor, slightly off his regular season, a 20 and 10 average, 65% from the floor. Averaged three free throw attempts per game in the playoffs, over six in the regular season. Guess what? He's still going to get paid a ton. So they'll go, hey, he was a young guy, his first real taste at this, even though he's in the playoffs for six games last year. But him disappearing like this is a big reason why Detroit is home. What else from this game? Look, I feel better about Cade. I know you can get into some of the box score stuff, you can get into the plus minus from last night. I think that's completely missing the point that this guy basically has to figure out how to get them into a good look every single time and he has to basically hit all of those mid range pull ups for them to even have a chance. If no one around him is Doing anything. So Dern's not doing anything offensively. Again, Harris goes over six. I thought there were two early drives from him where he went really soft. I'm like, all right, well, that's not a great sign. Jenkins hit his first couple threes, and then he disappears. I understand why they went to Jenkins instead of Duncan Robinson. And then you have the Asar factor, where as much fun as he is defensively, what drives me crazy about him, it's like, okay, fine, nobody's going to guard you because you can't shoot. And that's going to lead to all other problems that we've already discussed, because then Mobley can just float the entire time. But there are times where Asar would be opposite on the ball side, right? So he's on the other side of the ball, and the player assigned to him defensively has no idea where he even is. He's just like, whatever, I'm not going to defend him. Which is fine. But there were times where I think Asar could have cut off the ball and come to the ball. And the couple times that he did do it, I don't know that he was really ready on the catch. Other times he'd be ignored. And I understand, too, like, part of it is, well, you don't want to bring your defender over to the ball side if they're. In theory. I mean, it sounds ridiculous to say as far as providing spacing, but the problem is, is defensive players already paying attention to the ball anyway, so that traffic is already there. So I thought that there were multiple opportunities. It wasn't going to change the series, but some opportunities to be like, hey, if you're. If the guy defending you doesn't know where you are, like, find an open spot against the help and, you know, be ready to go as soon as you get the ball. And I don't think he was ready to go even in the limited times that he did it. But again, that wasn't. That wasn't going to fix the series. This Detroit team is an incredibly flawed team. Probably one of the most flawed, number one overall seeds in conference that I've ever seen. They still potentially, you know, if they'd had great defense and Allen and Mobley don't go off, you know, maybe they pull this thing out at home. Their home record in game Sevens have been perfect prior to last night. So he's not really quite sure what was going to happen with Cleveland either, because you get the hardened factor where he had two made field goals and two shot clock violations on both Shot clock violations he didn't want to shoot. So get ready for a Cass, fans. If you get hard in game seven again, you can see it immediately. It's like, oh, he doesn't want to shoot the ball tonight. Cool. It's going to be fun. So he has a dud and he moves on. The good thing for Mitchell, and this can all seem kind of silly the way we do this with players, but it's also true, like he is no longer a guy that you can say, hey, he's never got out of the second round. Even if you're like, well, they play Toronto, play Detroit, that never was really comfortable with any of their lineups, which is sort of weird for a 60 win team, which is why I kept bringing it up all the time. So yeah, now they're in the Eastern Conference finals. So Donovan Mitchell's awesome. Now. I think history would tell you I like Mitchell. Probably I'm more of like a pro Mitchell guy than I would be anti him. But it seems like I just, I guess, look, it's a little philosophical. It just feels a little silly at times to be like, okay, totally different guy now, like is he? But the truth is the same way if Embiid were to get to an Easter conference finals or NBA Finals, you just can't say it anymore. So that in itself is a win. Even if you could dig through the path going like, I don't know what to do with this team. Against New York they went 2 and 1. I think the Knicks should be thrilled the Pistons are gone because again, those regular season matchups felt like Detroit's length, athleticism or maybe a regular season. Duran was kind of an issue for New York and now they play a Cleveland team that defensively is middle of the pack. A Cleveland team that I do think is really deep and has some cool options. And if the Cavs get steady contribution from Mobley Allen, granted, like each guy's going to have an absolute dud of a game in there because it's just kind of the way this stuff works. And that's why your max players offensively are supposed to provide all the offense even when you don't have it. I think this is a win for New York just because of what I saw from the regular season. The two games that they played, they had one in October, one in December, so obviously no Harden. And then the February 24th game was with Harden. Cleveland won that one. The second game during the regular season between these two teams was fantastic. Big time fourth quarter comeback from the Knicks. There Hart and Mitchell each missed one game during the regular season matchups, but Cleveland won that last one by 15. I'm not 100% sure what it means, but I do think based on again, that regular season stuff there, New York is probably happy. Nixon 6 I have an MVP vote. As you know, the award was announced yesterday. I did vote for sga. I was conflicted. I have a hard time with it. You know, some years I'm like, ah, this is not that hard. Other years I think it's a little harder. I was not. Somebody was like, oh, it's SGA and I can't think about anybody else. I think I went sga, Jokic, Wemby, Luka, then Cade. Cade may have been fourth if he hadn't missed so much time. I think there's a Wemby pivot. Depending on how this Western Conference finals goes to, there can be some carryover where it might just be everybody starts voting for him next year, which seems a little unfair to him now. But then you could also get into a total minutes thing where you're like, all right, I don't have an issue with any of these two dudes. The biggest deciding factor for me was when Jokic came back. I just thought that there was some stuff at the end of some of those tight games. They weren't winning clutch games. He wasn't shooting it great. There was some turnover stuff and it was like a really, really th margin for me. I was like, it just feels like SGA is just a little steadier on the better team, which isn't always a deciding factor for me, record wise. I think some people use that to kind of bail out how they want to vote on this stuff. It's happened in the past where I've gone against the standings and not really cared, but this one I felt fine with sga. Now, the reason we're bringing this up because Saruti and I were talking last night and I wanted to run through a bit of an exercise here with your Western Comps Conference finals players. And that is if you were drafting, let's say 16 players right between the Thunder roster and the spurs roster just for this series, not contracts, not trade value, not moving forward, who would you take? And then how many spurs, how many guys from the Thunder would you go? And ultimately, like, would everyone take Wembanyama over the guy who just won his second mvp? And the answer is yes, it should be Wembanyama. As special as SGA is for this series or for any seven game series, and what Wembanyama has been doing here and what he provides you defensively and then go, I'll start there, and then I'll figure the rest of it out. He should be the number one pick. I asked the front office this too. So you can see how different my thoughts were from somebody from a front office. So I went. This was really hard. It was really hard because you get the Jalen Williams factor of like, well, what do I do? Do I give him benefit of the doubt? Do I just pencil him in here as the third overall pick, or do I ding him? Because we're just not quite sure. So I went Winyama 1, SGA 2. I went check 3. I went Castle 4. Then I'm going to give it to Jalen Williams at 5. He might be 3. If it was like a normal nice stretch from him. This is where it gets a little weird. I want Harper six. I would take him. Like, right now. You're like, you can have Dylan Harper or De' Aaron Fox. I would take Harper. I have Fox 7, Hartenstein 8, AJ Mitchell, 9. Bit of a thunder run here. Caruso 10, Wallace 11, Dort 12, FSEL 13, Keldon Johnson 14. 15. I'm gonna go with old Luke Cornett. And in that last spot, like Wiggins, who was actually in the rotation is not now last year, I think I'm gonna go McCain over Isaiah Joe, which also seems stupid because I think if the Thunder have everybody, I'm not even sure that he plays. So it should probably be Joe over McCain, but I'm just going to go with McCain, which, again, I don't love my rationale for that one. All right, so front office, he went wemby sga chet fox 4. Item 7, Castle. He has AJ Mitchell 6, Harper 7. Really ding jalen Williams here because of the injury in the Unknown 8. He did say, hey, look, if it's normal Jalen Williams, he's 3. Caruso 9, Hartenstein 10, Basel 11, Kelvin Johnson 12, 13, Wallace 14, Dort. So I had no. I had Door 12, Isaiah Joe 15. And then he went Harrison Marnes 16. So no Luke Cornett from our front office source, our anonymous source. What I did think was kind of funny was he was like, you know what's. Because he was like, 7am you're asking me this? He was like, just running through the exercise here for a few minutes just makes you realize how gross it is, how talented both of these teams are, which I think is accurate. I went back and watched the last game that mattered between San Antonio and OKC this morning. Just to remind you, the San Antonio spurs went 4 and 1 against OKC during the regular season. We already knew that. Wemby averaged 25 minutes a game, so numbers way down.18, 9 and 2 or his average against the Thunder shooting splits 52 and 63% from 3. However, that's misleading because he only took 1.63 point. So I don't know if they'll run that number up there and say, oh, he kills him from three without pointing out he's barely taking any shots against them. Three games were between December 13th and the 25th. So San Antonio won all three of those. Then January 13th, OKC won 119 98. Then they had the February 4th game where OKC's five starters were the other. Jalen Williams, Kenrich Williams, Joe Wiggins, Wallace must have been like, seriously, like, I have to play in this game. Brennan Carlson, Brooks Barnheiser, Chris Youngblood, your other three in that game. So not a ton. I didn't watch that one this morning. Looking back at the fourth one where it was the only one that OKC got. Chet starts in Wembanyama and within three minutes they have Jalen Williams on them. There was even a little Kenrich Williams on him. Some really good stuff from Castle passing to Wembanyama on some of these drives, which, you know, he's just blown up here during the playoffs. But some reminders like, oh yeah, he was still pretty good on the regular season, too. It looks like Jalen Williams is the preferred matchup. Hartenstein didn't play in this game. There's also a little Kenrich Williams on him. But the biggest thing that I noticed that I thought was, well, I maybe two things here as I finish up that women, Yama and you. You see this all the time with the spurs is that he wants to stay low, even if his assignment is somebody who provides some spacing, right? So when he's assigned to Chet, he may take Chet and follow him down the floor after a make and kind of see what Chet does. But when Chet stays up or he's setting a screen or they're trying to do something for Chet, if Wembanyama has time. And this is where the communication and his smarts are just so impressive. And this is also a young team where, look, if you do it enough for six months, you'd think you'd figure it out, right? So they have. Where Wembanyama wants to stay low no matter what, it's not going to happen every time. Like, sometimes he's going to be the closest. If Chet is getting into his offense and is looking for a shot. Although I still think Chet likes to, like, catch and then reset. It's not just a, hey, I'm going to go to work here. Maybe it's a turnaround against a smaller player. Probably not Wembanyama, but Wemby wants to stay low. And that led to wide open threes at times in the corner because he's talking to whoever is defending, like a Wiggins or a Wallace. Maybe it'd be an Isaiah Joe. I didn't necessarily even see that possession, but it's a guard is against one of these guys that runs to the corner and then if there's enough time, Wembanyama is going to go, you know what? Like you go up top to Chet. I want to stay low because I'm still really defending against any kind of SGA drive and I don't want to be 30ft away from the hoop getting turned around and then running behind SGA the entire time. And there were some nice open shots there for OKC depending on how quickly they got the ball to Wembanyama. Kind of like floating still. And it looked like it was like, we don't even want you running to close out against some of this stuff. Look, there are so many minutes from these regular season games that are probably irrelevant now. I was just trying to kind of find anything and one number during the third quarter stretch here because OKC put together a 141 run. Some of it was without Wembanyama. Then they brought him in. San Antonio went double big. They bailed on that. It was really good defense. It was forcing some turnovers. If I'm okc, I want to try to push it. I want to push it with a look, like that would be the plan. Doesn't mean we're going to run all night long. It doesn't mean that we're always looking for layups or that we're going to challenge anyone at the rim just because we want to pick up the pace here. It's just like push with a look, like off a miss. Let's push it. Let's see if there's something there. And if not, we can just bring it back out and put in the MVP hands of sga. And that's probably going to be a pretty good look at times too, because despite what OKC does so well, right, they force you into an absurd number of turnovers. Granted, the Lakers were missing some dudes, one in particular who's really good. But you get the point like LA is probably going to turn it over a lot anyway, but especially against this OKC defense. But San Antonio has done a great job in the five regular season games against OKC, averaging only 12.6 turnovers per game, which is a really nice number, especially when you're going up against this team. But that one stretch where OKC like really looked like okc, because there's a cup game in there where I'm like, man, this is weird how San Antonio's just clogged this team up that never looks this clogged up. I thought it was just a nice little sign of, hey, it may not be a perfect two on one, three on two, that kind of stuff, but let's just push it a little bit earlier so that we're not letting Wembanyama settle in to whatever he wants to do on the half court. 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Better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com using the code RYAN at checkout fastgrowingtrees.com code RYAN now is the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use Ryan to Save Today Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. I saw a great clip from Brennan Heywood from the NBA this past week. He's got a Instagram page, YouTube page, and it's called Tallest Tales and he was talking about prepping for the 2011 Miami Heat when he was with the Dallas Mavs. Won the whole thing. He joins us on the show now. He's called games for cbs, tnt, NBC Wizards coverage as well. So it's good to see you man. Thanks for joining the show today, man.

[Brendan Haywood]

Thanks for having Me, man. It's an honor to be here.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So I want to get to some of your stories because they're great. But I do want to start with what we saw in the second round from Detroit and Cleveland. And I think it's a big guy, you know, it's. It's one of those things where with Mobley and Allen, who I think most teams would be like, yeah, I want those guys. I know it can be up and down for the non stars, but do you feel like anything clicked for either Mobley or Allen or both of them that you feel like can carry over to the Eastern Conference finals?

[Brendan Haywood]

Yeah, I think the first thing that I saw was if you go back and look at Game 7, because that's what's freshest on my mind. Donovan Mitchell started that game off getting his bigs involved. I think that's key. Get. Let the big men eat early. If you want the dragon to protect the castle, you gotta feed them early on in the process. So let those bigs, get those lobs, those easy shots. Because Donovan Mitchell gets so many opportunities, he can pick and choose whenever he wants to be aggressive. But I loved how he came out in game seven. First play lob to Mobley. He had a couple really nice drop offs to big fella inside Jared Allen. And I think that's what really kicked the party off. D. Mitch had like five assists early on in that game, finished with eight. I think the way he saw the court and got those bigs involved, I think that was huge.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I'm with you. You know, I think this game has shifted and this has been going on for years. Obviously with the three point shooting and the spacing and some teams preferring still smaller lineups that it's. It's almost like you've got to go out and, and fight for touches. You know, it's a big guy. It's like, do I. Can I get any touches here? And Mitchell's passing, you know, somebody who hasn't had a ton of assist throughout the playoffs. What does that do for you as a big. To energize you kind of in all the other facets of the game that you have to stay competitive in when you know you're getting a couple early buckets.

[Brendan Haywood]

I just take it back to myself now. I wasn't as good as Evan Mobley or Jared Allen, but when I was starting, I was playing for the Washington Wizards. I played with a guy by the name of Gilbert Arenas, incredibly gifted guard. And I would always tell Gil, yo, man, when you drive down the lane, Just find me early. Find me early because it gives me a little bit of a rhythm. I feel like I'm part of the action. And, yeah, I know I'm not going for 28, but you give me a couple of dunks here and there, and now I got a different bop in my step. You know, if you want Jared Allen to do all the dirty stuff, hey, a couple times, just spoon feed him a couple of dunks a couple times. And maybe you can shoot a floater, turn it into a lob, and you'll be surprised how much that helps a big man's confidence. It just gets him going. It's just something about dunking at the other end. It also has an adverse effect on the other team's big man because you don't want your guy to get three or four easy ones. Selfishly, I would tell Gil, listen, if you don't, if you give me two to three easy ones early, I guarantee you'll get two to three easy ones late. Cause don't nobody want to let Brendan Haywood have 10 points in the first half. They feel like they're not doing their job. You know what I'm saying? This dude averaged eight for the game. We can't let him get off so like that. All those things add up. And that's why as a guard, when you come down that lane early in the game, if you can drop it off to your big and let him get busy, you should always do that.

[Ryan Ruocco]

When I think about this Knicks matchup for Cleveland, one of the things that I think made it a lot easier for Cleveland is once they put Mobley and A Sar Thompson, then that meant that Asar was going to be ignored and then Mobley could float. And then I think on top of that, it makes it that much harder for Duran. Like, we could look at Duran and say, hey, he's young. It's his second playoffs ever. He had a great regular season, but there was a lot to ask to have to fight with, like, two bigs a lot of the time. But then that's probably being nice because there's also way too many minutes where you're just not even noticing him whatsoever. So I don't think concern is the right way to ask it. But just kind of looking at Duran, does it. Does it make you feel like you have to take a second look at him after this great regular season? Or is it easy to excuse because of the factors that I've mentioned?

[Brendan Haywood]

So if I was Trajan Langdon when Jalen Durham walked into my office, I'D be like, listen, man, there's a difference between the regular season and the postseason. If you haven't paid attention, they took the lobs out of the game and your game went down into the tank. So there's going to be some things where you have to get a little bit better. You have to learn from this situation. And then I'm also going to explain to him why. Listen, we're going to go out and find a true number two option. We love what you do, but we need a true secondary score to go along with Cade Cunningham. That's why his turnovers are so high. So I'm sitting there, I'm telling him the real like, listen, we love you, you're part of the team. We're going to give you a big time contract. But here are the things we need from you. I need you to work on your game, add a couple of, a couple of more offensive moves so we can run more offense through you. And then in the off season, I don't care whether it's a Michael Porter Jr. A Michael Porter Jr. I don't care whether it's a Laurie Markkanen, Zach Levine, ideally maybe a Devin Booker, but probably can't get him, but some type of secondary scorer, we're going to have to bring him in to do what you couldn't do these playoffs because that was the biggest thing that I saw from the Pistons. They're two young guys. When you look at Thompson and Duran, they found out the difference between the regular season and the postseason. The game slows down, the refs let it get a lot more physical and teams are a lot more game plan discipline. Listen, they were guarding Sar Thompson like he had. Covid.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Is there. Well, look, we know it's different because the Knicks do not run out an Asar Thompson. There is no perimeter player that you're allowed to ignore with somebody who also was defensive player of the year. So it's not just, hey, let's make sure there's, there's no one extended here. Let's now let a defensive player of the year float and do whatever he wants. The OG health thing changes things for the Knicks here. But like, what is, what's the most like, important thing that you're going to be looking for? Trying to figure out how this series goes between New York and Cleveland.

[Brendan Haywood]

From the Knicks side, it's going to be can Karl Anthony Towns stay out of foul trouble because he is one of the better big men in this league, but he picks up the most nonsensical fouls I've ever seen in the playoffs. And that's been consistent from Minnesota all the way till now. He's playing against two incredible big men, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. He has to find a way to stay out on the court because he's too good to commit. The silly over the backs, just straight running people over. Even though you see him the, the reckless reach in and hacks Karl Anthony Towns has to stay away from silly fouls and make sure that he is. His presence is definitely felt in the series. I think that's what has to happen on the Knicks side of things. On the flip side, if you're Cleveland, you got to put Jalen Brunson in the action. You got to wear him down kind of similar to what the Pacers did to him last year. Put him in a lot of action, make him work because you know he's good enough to get his on the offensive end. But you can't let him be fresh. Make sure he's got a guard. James, he's got to guard Mitchell. If he tries to switch on to somebody else, don't let him hide. Make Jalen Brunson come out and play.

[Ryan Ruocco]

One of the things that I liked about the Knicks, you know, as it got better was like they had multiple players on Atlanta, whether it's Dyson, Alexander, Walker, you know, like they were always looking to target CJ but there were say 60% of whatever your three man back core combo was. You felt like they could at least stay in the fight with Brunson until it was a screen and then whatever would happen after that. It was very clear against Philadelphia they did not have the manpower because you're like, hey, do I want to go with vj? Do I want to go at Maxi? Do I want to bring Embiid up? Because he's not going to close out on any of this stuff. So I felt like it was a massive, like wake up call of, man, this is way more fun going up against Philly's roster for Brunson than it was going up against Atlanta's. Even though Brunson eventually is going to always get his numbers, you might want to attack Mitchell. You probably would love to get Harden going side to side, but if you're going to be Brunson going right into him, I'd give Harden this, like he's going to hold up physically. Like he's not going to give up ground if you kind of go like straight at him. But if you can get him chasing, then he might even just kind of give up on the whole thing where I think Mitchell's going to fight a little bit more. But what you don't have, which Brunson loves to live on, you don't really have the center that you're going to want to switch into. You know, it's got to be preferably Allen than it would be Mobley. But when it's Mobley out there by himself, I can't imagine the Knicks. Maybe it's just to start whatever the play is, hey, let's get the 1:5 switch and then we're doing something else. But it's not going to be Brunson attacking Mobley. I would think off the dribble with as much success as he does against other players.

[Brendan Haywood]

That's what makes his Cleveland roster so good. They have not one, they have two, two way bigs, Jared Allen and Mobley. They can give you rim protection. Mobley's been the defensive player of the year. They can switch to pick and roll and move their feet with the guard. So yeah, you don't always want to attack their bigs. But at the same time, you brought up Harden's defense. Yeah, he might slide, have that initial slide, but that's the guy I want right there. Yo, James, I want you, I want James in, I want James in the action. You know, like that's the guy that, if I'm the New York Knicks, let's find some mid post plays where we can go with James, where we can exploit that matchup. We know their bigs are a little bit different. Their big men can really get out and move their feet. But that's why I kept bringing up Karl Anthony Towns, because if they switch and Evan Mobley or Jared Allen or whoever goes out there and guards Jalen Brunson, Karl Anthony Towns cannot hang out on the perimeter when that switch happens. He has to run straight to 15ft or the low block, catch that ball and kill. That's what he has to do. That's why he's so important, because we know they're going to try to switch with their bigs. But if they switch their, if they switch a small on the Karl Anthony Towns, he's the guy. I know he's the number two option. But every, hey, listen, every, every Batman needs a Robin. And Robin's gonna have to come help save Gotham this time. And I think he can do it. He's set up perfect. He's had a lot of rest. He's gonna come into this series fresh. He has the perfect opportunity to shed this label that he can't really that he's soft or he can't get it done in the playoffs. This is the series where you announce to the world that I'm here right now, you help the Knicks get to the finals and you do it against two of the best big men in the league.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So it sounds like you're picking the Knicks.

[Brendan Haywood]

I am, I am, I am. I have. I think that both these rosters are very good. I just have more faith in Jalen Brunson than I do anybody else in this series. And I love everybody. I think it's going to be a great series. But if this game is close down the stretch, I'm just going to put my money on Jalen Brunson.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, I'm with you, Nixon. Six. Okay. Western Conference finals. If I not drafting for the future, but for these next two weeks, you know, it feels like it's going to go seven here. If you could have anyone from either of the two rosters, who would you start with? Between San Antonio and okc?

[Brendan Haywood]

Sure. Easily. Two time MVP over Wembley, Over Wemby. Yes.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Okay.

[Brendan Haywood]

Wemby is incredible. Shay is a two time mvp. But more importantly, a lot of times when I watch Wemby, he's still a young player trying to figure it out offensively, sometimes he's still trying to figure out, should I jab here? Should I? How should I get it off? How should I get my shot off? In this moment, Shay knows everything he wants to do. He knows exactly where he wants to be. And it's so hard to take it away. So like I'm. Hey, listen, now you asked me this question. In a year it might be Wemby, but right now, today, give me the Canadian man. Hey, it's been a good time for Canadians this weekend.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I look, I can't believe as a big guy, you didn't take Wemby. I'm shocked by this answer. I was like, I'll ask, but he's just going to be a big. You big guys are biased. You protect each other.

[Brendan Haywood]

Listen, Shay is honestly the perfect superstar. He defends, he scores, he's efficient, he can pass like he has done.

[Ryan Ruocco]

He's not a pain in the ass,

[Brendan Haywood]

not a great leader. His teammates love him. And then proof of concept, we've already seen him win. So it's just like, hey, listen, I love Wemby. Like I said, Shay's got. Now Wemby's got next. Unless Wemby wins in this series. But you ask me who I would take today, Let me get the two time mvp.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Are you picking okc?

[Brendan Haywood]

I got OKC in seven. I think it's going to be a hard fought series and I know that San Antonio has curb stomped OKC all season long, but I have the utmost faith that with J. Will coming back, the way A.J. mitchell has performed in these playoffs, that OKC is going to win this series.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I want to get to some of your playoff history on game planning, but you know when you watch Wemby, what would you be talking about with your stat? Like say you were on OKC right now and from what you've seen from him, I mean I know it's a little unfair because you retired. It's not like you played against him this year, but you also get to watch him a ton. There's no like solution to it. But what would your priorities be?

[Brendan Haywood]

My priorities would be first and foremost, don't overreact to his jump shots. And I know he can shoot, but I want the 74 guy on the perimeter as much as possible. So we're not having those situate. We close. We're closing out short. Not like a Sar Thompson short, but we don't want to let him drive to the basket and get into the paint because the more and more somebody 74 affects the paint, the easier it is for him and his teammates. So I will close out a little bit short to that to his jump shot. I would try to get a little bit physical when he posts up, try to bump him off the lane. But we know we're talking about one of the he's going to go down as one of the best big men ever. So there's not a lot of answers to the question of how you stop Wemby. But my thing is don't overreact to the jump shot. Let's get a little bit physical with them if possible to kind of similar to what Minnesota tried to do. Let's make sure we bump them off the lane. No easy catches and direct don'ts.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I was watching the OKC win this morning and I was trying to look at like the defensive assignments again too because like in the beginning of the year when people were like okay, step as wembanyama taking it was pretty traditional. Hey, let's go and play him with centers. Like we need to have size that contest some of this stuff. And then there was a real pivot to like is there someone stout that's like a small forward, even a guard, like is there a. The Lakers did it with Rui. You know, it's like let's get into his hip. It's going to be a lower center, center of gravity. And I think that might be why Jalen Williams got two weeks off. Because they're like, hey, don't rush it. Take two weeks off. We'll sweep Phoenix, we'll sweep la. Because you may be defending Wembanyama a majority of the time, we may start with chat. Hartenstein is probably going to get a couple of looks at it, but it might be Jalen Williams going up against him. And I'll ask you this as a big guy okc, Everybody complains about how physical they are off the ball, on the ball, the way they're called. I think it's kind of like, hey, they can't call every foul, so we'll just do it this way. I think if it's a smaller player on Wembanyama, it's going to be really. It's going to be a really annoying series. He's still going to be awesome. But what a perimeter player, whether it's Caruso or Dorr or even Jalen Williams is bigger than those guys. What they're going to be allowed to do physically against Wembanyama as opposed to another seven footer that matches him. You know, this. The. The discrepancy between what a big guy gets away with and what a small guy gets away with, it, it is an unsolvable thing that's always happened in NBA history. Yeah.

[Brendan Haywood]

Like it. So it. A lot of it comes down to how you attack the small. So a lot of times when you say, oh, there's a big or a small, you just think, okay, just run right here and post up. That's the easiest way to guard a guy because now all eyes are on him like he's Tupac. Like, nah, nah, we're not doing that. When I see that matchup, what I want to do is I'm going to tell Wemby, we're going to get you the ball, but we want to get you on the second side of the action. Set a pick first, roll down the lane. So they're going to have to come off. Whoever's on your body is going to have to come off. And if they don't come off, you saw some of those plays early on in the San Antonio elimination game when they didn't come off Wemby's body and Castle was just going down the lane.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Duncan.

[Brendan Haywood]

So we're going to use that aspect of it. First of all, we're going to have you set a screen. They're going to have to switch that guy that they want on you off of you. Then what I really want you to do is just roll to the rim, Turn around and be 74 in the middle of the lane. That is the easiest way to beat that strategy. Because, yeah, we confront you and do all these things. If you run to the block and we just put three guys around you, but if you set a screen first and then we get you the ball on the second side, there's so many other actions that they have to worry about. They have to worry about the screen and roll, they have to worry about the line pass. And then we have a direct line to throw it to you in the lane. It's easy peasy. I might need to get me an assistant coaching job.

[Ryan Ruocco]

No, but what you're talking about is kind of the Drew Holiday matchup where I'm going, like, you can't just, just get him on the block at some point and you're like, all right. And look, Drew, fronting wembanyama is not going to be effective. But when it fell apart, it was falling apart with simple two man action. You know, it was just like, look, can we have three shooters? Two on one side, one on the other side. And hopefully we're running it on the side with one shooter so there's not two other defenders that can come off and help off the three point line. But when it fell apart, there was like a stretch in one of the games where I'm like, okay, this is actually now a disaster here for Portland. Like, credit for two to Drew Holiday for even staying that competitive with it for as long as he did. But it wasn't like the old school Mikhail on the block thing that sometimes I wonder, like, is there never an opportunity to do some of that stuff there? Because once you're, once you're chasing after him, then the lob is back in play.

[Brendan Haywood]

Yeah, I mean, and also what your teammates do on the weak side is very key into that coverage. Because obviously if you're playing Wimby with a small, more than likely you're fronting, you're three quartering him. There's lob aspects. So when you make that swing, swing and you get a Vassell to knock down a couple of corner threes or if Keldon Johnson's hitting his shot, that's what really. That's when it becomes, oh, my. Okay, I don't know what we're going to do because this same exact strategy that we're talking about, okc used it against Joker last year. But why did it work? Well, Russell Westbrook couldn't shoot it. Like, they didn't have anybody. They didn't have enough shooters to stop that coverage. And the thing about San Antonio is they have enough guys that knock down shots. They can say, you know what? Let's take Casso from this area and replace him with this guy. And now if you want to put two, three people around Wemby and go and get physical with a small, when we make that quick swing, it's to somebody that's ready to catch and shoot and knock that shot in. And I always say this role players give stars the space to be stars in the playoffs. That's why Kobe always trusted Derek Fisher, because he Kobe, when I get in this lane and I create a problem, and Derek Fisher's man is at the nail, when I kick it to him, he knocks down two or three shots, his man ain't coming next time. Now I get to go in a Mamba mentality. That's why LeBron always wants to play with shooters. Those others, those other guys, when that heavy coverage comes down to trying to bog down the star, and those guys knock down three or four threes, boom. That totally changes the game plan. And that's how you go from a tight game to a quick, quick blowout.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Let's go back to 2011, this incredible run for your Mavs team where after the first round, which six, you ran through the Lakers in the second round at OKC in nine games. What I want to focus on, and you just brought up Kobe, is how you game plan with this terrific staff with Carlisle, how you game plan for Kobe, and then how that changed, knowing the tendencies of LeBron a couple rounds later in the NBA Finals.

[Brendan Haywood]

So first off, our assistant coaching staff, our whole coaching staff in 2011 was great. We talked about Rick Carlisle going to be a Hall of Fame coach. Terry Stotts had some incredible years coaching Portland, and Dwayne Casey did a great job in Toronto, and Detroit was actually the coach of the year. So we would have different game plans. Now, the game plan for Kobe, there's really no game plan for Kobe, but our biggest game plan for the Lakers was to attack their bigs. Kobe can go left, he goes right. You have different areas where you want to help. But our biggest thing was myself. Tyson Chandler set as many screens as possible because we wanted Powell and Andrew Bynum in all the action. And if you go back and look at that series, our second unit was killing them because we were setting these picks and rolls and their bigs. Were always far back in the lane. So JJ Barea is killing them. Pedri Stiakovic and Jason Terry coming in with that second unit. Like one time I remember just in Dallas, we flat out just the second unit ran them off the floor like everybody. From a plus minus standpoint, I think I might have been a plus 40 and I didn't even score. I was just running back and down the court just said, I'm just setting screens, baby. Plus minus can lie to you sometimes. I'm just setting a good screen. And guess what, they turning the corner. Andrew Bynum's low, Pau Gasol is low and is leading to Peja Stakovic by six, seven threes. Jason Terry, a bunch of threes. JJ Bare, a bunch of mid range jump shots. So our game plan against the Lakers, we want their bigs involved in every single action. Because the Lakers at that point they were, they used to run a lot of action through Powell and Andrew Bynum. We like, you know what, we want these guys tired, we want these guys fatigued. And we ain't running no plays for you and Tyson Chandler. So we need you guys to fatigue them as far as running the court hard. A million and one screening roles and all of a lot of our plays were about getting those bigs on the move.

[Ryan Ruocco]

When you talk about something like that, like you can, you can talk about it, you deserve all the credit for, for executing it that long because it's kind of like running the football and handing it off and going, all right, we only got one yard, we only got two yards. Like, shouldn't it make a little more sense to take some deep shots here, see if we can get a big play. It's like, no, we need to run the football because we need Bynum and Gasol to be miserable. As an aside, before we get to the finals, was there a team that you would go against where you felt like based on your role? Like, this team makes me feel miserable because of what they're making me. It's not just, hey, this guy's really good and it's really tough, but somebody you always felt like whether maybe it was a coach where it's like he kind of always knew how to make me not want to, not, not want to be in the game, but always feel uncomfortable.

[Brendan Haywood]

I'm not sure if there was a game plan, it would just be certain matchups, certain players, like, you know, like it would be certain guys like Portland. LaMarcus Aldridge got a lot of shots. And when he really started, you know, when I first Used to guard him. I used to just cut off his right hand. And then he developed that turnaround jump shot and a little pump fake. So sometimes when LaMarcus Aldridge and Portland really got cooking, it was like, this is a tough matchup. I know I want to guard my yard, but, hey, Coach, send help. I need a little bit of help. I need some help over here. So, like, it wasn't like I was scared of the matchup. It would just be certain matchups. I'd be like, all right, I know if this is a young. This is the key. Certain young players grow. I used to be able to guard lamarcus Aldrich easy because he would only go to his right hand. And that turnaround jumper, I usually just time it up. And then he started to develop in this game, and I was like, oh, that turnaround jumper. He's developed the pump fake off of it. He's developed a little bit more to the left now he becomes so much harder to guard that it's like, it's not quite as easy as it was before. So that matchup was something now where I'm like, hey, guys, I know I take pride in my defense. I'm going to need a little bit of help. I'm going to force him this way. I need somebody else to be here because. Because right now, he's getting the better of me.

[Ryan Ruocco]

See, I put you on the spot, and that was a great answer. Okay. Going in to 2011, you know, the heater in the finals, the first year through with this thing, we're looking at this Dallas team, because I remember it was like, man, what a great story. But, like, I don't know, you know, I didn't pick you. No, no offense. Sorry.

[Brendan Haywood]

Nobody. Nobody.

[Ryan Ruocco]

What was it about game planning for LeBron defensively that gave you this advantage?

[Brendan Haywood]

So I told this story the other day, and I'm going to tell it again. So in that playoffs, LeBron was shooting like 55 or like 57% from the floor in the whole playoff, which is incredible for a wing play. But Rick Carlisle drew that number up on the board. He said 55%. And then. And he circled and he said, but now this is what LeBron shoots from the field outside of 15ft, and that number was like, 20%. He's like, our game plan is elbows and boxes, and we got to make everything look cluttered for LeBron. And it was kind of like the spurs strategy, but we adjusted it. They wouldn't guard him. We would actually pick him up and pressure him because we didn't want him to see the floor. So we would tell guys like desean Stevenson, Jason Terry, J. Kidd, Shawn Marion. When you're guarding LeBron, we want you to pick him up early because we don't want him to get ahead of steam. But then when he gets into the half court, you're still up into him. But when somebody calls screen, we're going to go under that screen and you're going to have help on the other side. And the scouting report was, we don't care who you're helping off of. You don't leave until you see that LeBron is no longer going down the lane. We didn't care if it was Mike Miller. We knew he could shoot. So what? We didn't care if he was Dwyane Wade. We know he's a Hall of Famer. So what if we keep this guy out of the lane, he's not going to shoot 55% from the field. Because at that point, LeBron, he didn't believe in his three point shot nearly as much. And then more importantly, he didn't just walk to the post. He didn't walk and post up. And we also knew that also. So it was like, if we shut down the elbows and boxes on his drives then and make him throw the ball to the weak side, we have a way better chance of winning. Hey, I'm like, coach, Chris Bosh is in the corner. Brendan, I don't care. Get all the way over. When that man goes, looks at the paint, he needs to see four or five eyes, everybody looking at him. And when you watch, go back and watch some of those, those series, those old games, J. Kidd's old, but he's sprinting back to get into the paint on transition. Like, yo, we can't give this guy dunks, we can't give him layups. We know what he is when he gets in the paint. And once we took that paint away, it became a lot harder for him. And the second thing was LeBron didn't have a post game at that point. So Shawn Marion, which started off the game on LeBron, but somewhere during that series, D. Wade started cooking. Like, D. Wade had an incredible series. So we had to pull Shawn Marion off of LeBron and put him on Dwyane Wade. And at first we're kind of like, we're thinking that it's not going to work, but we didn't think that he would go to the block consistently and he never did. He might go to the block every once in a while, but he never made us Pay for guarding him with smaller players. That wasn't. The post game wasn't in his repertoire at that time, and we were able to exploit that. And I. But after saying all that, after that series, LeBron got better because he started posting up more. He became better at shooting the three. He became better in the mid range, posting up from 15ft on in everything that we took away, he took that to heart, and he got better every single year. That strategy won't. That strategy went out the window probably two to three years after we used it.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You said two things in there that I think are really interesting, because it could be used as an anti LeBron agenda and a pro LeBron agenda.

[Brendan Haywood]

Oh, Lord. Or not. Not the end. Not. And anytime you say anything, anything about Bron, it's like all the Jordan people come out there. I see. See, that's why he ain't the goat, right?

[Ryan Ruocco]

So I. I'm just. I'm doing it for them in case they missed it. But you said, hey, we had to take Marion off of him to put him on Wade, so that it's like the Jordan guys that go, oh, my God. But you also spent two minutes, three minutes prior to that saying, hey, our entire game plan was to make sure we stopped him and help off of everybody else, which be an argument in favor of the pro LeBron people out there. So I just think that's really interesting that you kind of gave us these two things that would sort of fight each other if you wanted to pick one. I can just already see the tweets now of saying, like Haywood said, we had to take Mariana off of LeBron and put him on weight. It's like, yeah, but there's.

[Brendan Haywood]

But it's true.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Like, what about all the other stuff he said?

[Brendan Haywood]

Two things can be true. LeBron James was the head of the Snake. He was the best player in the league at that point, and we couldn't win that series if we didn't stop him. The second thing is, Dwyane Wade was a better post player at that point, and Dwyane Wade was killing Jason Kidd, and we had to put more size on him. That's just the truth of it. It's not an anti LeBron take or a pro Jordan take. It's like, this is what happened. If you don't believe me, just watch. Go look at the 2011 series. D. Wade was a monster on that block. People forget about how cold D. Wade was getting to that lane, that floater. He was destroying us on that block.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Were you guys mad? At the fake coughing from LeBron and Wade.

[Brendan Haywood]

Yes. We were incensed. We were super mad because Dirk was really sick. He was our leader. And anybody knows Dirk's not the loud guy, so we were mad for him. It's like they're trying to disrespect our leader. The guys out here are playing through whatever illness he had. I think he had the flu, and they think it's playtime. So everybody in our locker room really, really took that serious. We were super dialed in. Like, you don't win a game just because somebody's laughing at you and you come out mad. But it really made us dial in, like, okay, we really locked in on this scout report. Now they think it's playtime. It was a different level of energy because we felt it was a different level of disrespect.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, he had 101 fever.

[Brendan Haywood]

Yeah. You know, trying to go out there and win A championship with 101 fever probably. Probably isn't something you should laugh at. And then you also have to take it back to the fact Dirk and D. Wade had smoked from the 2006 NBA Finals. Dirk really didn't like D. Wade anyway. He didn't like. If he's being honest, he'd be like, yo, you know what? I didn't fool with dude before that anyway. Because he didn't like the comments that D. Wade made after the 2006 finals. He didn't like those comments at all. He didn't say nothing. But he.

[Ryan Ruocco]

He wore it.

[Brendan Haywood]

He didn't like it at all.

[Ryan Ruocco]

There was a broadcast not that long ago where it was Candace and Dean Wade on. And Candace, after a call that was pretty light for a playoff game, Candace was like, imagine Wade if you had played with this whistle. And all I could think about was the 2006 NBA Finals. He did play with that whistle in 2006.

[Brendan Haywood]

Yeah.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Now it's. Now it's turning and making it sound like we're. We're knocking Wade. When I think of the utmost respect

[Brendan Haywood]

with Dwyane Wade, I would never.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah. Before we say goodbye, did Arenas charge you for that jersey?

[Brendan Haywood]

Did he charge me, or did I charge him?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Well, yeah, actually, that's a good point. Maybe that's some good brand awareness downstairs in your studio there. I just.

[Brendan Haywood]

Oh, you talking about the jersey in the back? Not. But you know, how he got the jersey, though?

[Ryan Ruocco]

I don't know.

[Brendan Haywood]

Okay. So when I first came into the league, I started out as number three. I sold my jersey to Juan Dixon because he wanted to wear number three. So I sold it for like $10,000, and then I became double zero. At that point, you couldn't have double zero and zero. So when Gilbert Arenas came to the team, he was like, listen, man, I'll buy the jersey from you now. My mom said, brendan, you sold your jersey last time. Don't sell your jersey number again. I said, mom, I got you. I'm not doing it. I owe it to my fans. Gil says, Brendan, I got 20,000 for you. Double what Juan Dixon paid for you. I said, man, I told my mom, I'm not selling the jersey. He said, I got 40,000 for you. I said, I don't know. He said, I got 50,000 now. I was gonna take the 50, but I was like, I still don't know. 100,000. New Jersey's yours. But then I had to call my mom. I was like, mom, I know you're gonna be upset, but I gave Gilbert, arranged the number. She said, I thought we talked about this. You're not gonna sell your jersey again, Brendan. You gotta have an identity in this league. I said, I know. She said, well, how much did you get? I said, 100,000. She said, I'd have sold it, too, baby. And that's how Gilbert Arenas and that's how Gilbert Arenas got the number zero because he had to pay me off.

[Ryan Ruocco]

And you got a jersey, too, Downstairs in a frame.

[Brendan Haywood]

Yeah, yeah. And you sent me the jersey right there. Yeah.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You know, that worked out. If you want to hear more of our guy, Brendan Haywood, check out Tallest Tales. He's got a YouTube page out. And we're going to have you on again, man. This was fantastic. Thank you.

[Brendan Haywood]

Hey, man, I appreciate you guys having you guys do great work as well. Big fan of what you've been doing throughout the course of your media career.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Thanks a lot, man. The alliance marches on. How did we do last week?

[Siri]

I think you were the only one that hit, actually. Kyle's in his feelings because you made fun of him for.

[Ryan Ruocco]

What was it?

[Siri]

Minus 180.

[Kyle]

Kyle called me.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Minus 180, Kyle.

[Kyle]

And really square in the chest, felt that one.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Minus 1,000. I was going to say it at some point,

[Siri]

and it didn't hit, so

[Ryan Ruocco]

hate to see that.

[Siri]

I think what you had. What? Ann Edwards, 25 or more points. He only had 20. I think I had Wemby, four plus blocks.

[Ryan Ruocco]

He only had three. So, you know, I would throw this out there because I actually bet it. I think OKC, minus 165 for the NBA championship is a lot of Value there. You can talk about it the other side and the guys that do this for a living and all that stuff. It's like, hey, I'd rather have the payout. I'd rather have, hey, give me the Knicks plus 550 or whatever. I think there's also a way you could play around with this a little bit. But that number has gone because I've been looking at it the entire time. I've seen it over minus 200, I've seen it minus 175, and now it's minus 165. And I know that's a lot of work to do there. I can't fathom anyone from the east in any of the potential matchups, winning an NBA title this year. But look, I think San Antonio is going to be an awesome series. I'm picking okc in 7. I wish I had the balls to pick San Antonio, but there's also part of me that's just like, let me get this at minus 165, and if I lose, I lose. All right, what do we got now?

[Kyle]

I grabbed them at plus a thousand when you were doing, like, the spurs stuff mid season, so I may be looking for a cash out. Like, I'm not gonna let myself do it. I'm like, well, I could let myself do it. So, yeah, I grabbed them at plus a thousand when you were, you know, going back and forth and your opens there. So we'll see if DK wants to give me a nice cash out or I'll just ride it out.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Good for you. I like that. Yeah, I like that out of you. All right, what do we got for the board tonight? Or this is one for tomorrow.

[Siri]

Yeah, we're doing Tuesday.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, that's right.

[Siri]

We're gonna do Cavs, Knicks, game one in the Garden. Three seed with the home court. Love to see that. Why don't you lead us off? Because you're hot, Ryan.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I'm picking York in the series and OG Being on track, full participation, two full contact scrimmages, I guess, over the weekend, so he should be good to go. And he's turned into, like, one of my favorite players in the league here. Having said all that, I just think plus seven and a half in game one is too much for two teams that I think they're close to. You know, I don't think the Knicks are, like, way better than them. The Knicks have all of this momentum, which I think is also some of the number here, too, because the Knicks are just going to get so many People betting on them the entire time. So even though I'm picking the Knicks to the series, I just think seven and a half is too many points to ignore. So I would take Cleveland plus the seven and a half for game one.

[Siri]

Can I ask you this? Because I'm looking at the series odds for both the east and west finals, and they're close. Before I say, who do you think has a better chance of winning the series? The spurs or the Cavs?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Oh, wow.

[Siri]

Because just for some perspective, they're almost dead even. OkC's minus 260. Knicks minus 265. Spurs plus 210. Cavs plus 215.

[Kyle]

Wow, you made this a real segment.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Dude, that was.

[Siri]

I honestly, by accident, because I was just like, oh, let me see what the series price. And I was like, damn, that's actually. And I don't know who I think I'd lean.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Spurs.

[Siri]

I think the Knicks win the series. Yeah.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I mean, that's the thing is, like, I just expect three disastrous hardened games. If it's six or seven games, we'll

[Siri]

get to that in a second.

[Ryan Ruocco]

But yeah. Yeah. So let's see. And I'm.

[Siri]

I'll piggyback off that. I'm taking hard and under at our bet. So under 18 and a half.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Oh, you are? It's under 18 and a half.

[Siri]

Under 18. I'll take under an 18 and a half.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, I like that too, buddy. So.

[Siri]

But did you answer the question? No.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Well, you gave me the answer.

[Siri]

No, I'm just asking you, who do you think has a better chance at winning?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Spurs or Cavs? Oh, I thought you were actually trying to get me to guess the line. And then you gave out the answer, so I was like, oh, I'll just keep it moving here. I think Cleveland has a better chance. I mean, we're talking about okc.

[Siri]

Okay, so we disagree. Kyle, break the tie.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I think ride's right.

[Siri]

Okay.

[Brendan Haywood]

Smart.

[Siri]

Smart answer. Smart.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Did you forget the question? Yes.

[Kyle]

There was a stink bug on my window and I just lost it.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I had a bug in my mic during Heywood. I was kind of like, do I blow on this? And then he's gonna be like, whoa. Yeah, that guy's pretty good. But I think he blew me a kiss at 17. Not gonna go out again. Nose is starting, but it's weird vibes. Something about the beach. That guy's not married, right? Yeah. Yeah. Figures. What's going on?

[Kyle]

All right.

[Ryan Ruocco]

By the way, I will take.

[Kyle]

Yeah. DraftKings will be happy with this. One definitely won't be our last one. All right, Mitchell Robinson, I'm taking him over seven and a half rebounds. That's minus 109. I think that's a non name calling bet right there. So.

[Siri]

Yeah.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Grit within range.

[Siri]

I honestly hate to do this, but this is.

[Ryan Ruocco]

This is.

[Siri]

So what do we have? Cavs plus seven and a half. Harden under 18 and a half.

[Kyle]

Are you going to tell me to take seven and then Mitchell Robinson? Nope.

[Siri]

And Mitchell Robinson over seven and a half. It's plus 750. That may be our highest payout of the season. And it's likely because Kyle's taking something close to even money.

[Kyle]

Okay, you know what?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Well, do we give me for the sake of survival here, do we allow Kyle to stay in his lane and we lower that rebound total here?

[Kyle]

Yeah, we'll take six and a half.

[Siri]

All right, let me take a look.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Or do we just come out to shoot ready to go.

[Kyle]

It's basically minus 180, which is funny.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So is it minus 180?

[Kyle]

Minus 179. So do it. That what you will.

[Siri]

Let me plug it in.

[Ryan Ruocco]

See what it says here. Hold on.

[Siri]

It's Rob. Yeah. Under.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Run it through your database.

[Siri]

See now this is hard. How do I do this?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Compelling.

[Siri]

I don't know. I can't do this.

[Ryan Ruocco]

No one can go anywhere. Attention is.

[Kyle]

So just make the pick then.

[Siri]

I think it is what it is. Yeah. So.

[Ryan Ruocco]

All right. If you want to fold it like a long. That will be.

[Siri]

That will be the.

[Ryan Ruocco]

It is down. Perfect.

[Brendan Haywood]

Yeah.

[Siri]

Plus 750. Boys. Let's do it.

[Ryan Ruocco]

All right. Kyle made me laugh. How hard because I. It was Kyle, just, you know, thanks for being a great audience. Kyle. If I don't say it enough for the latest odds sportsbook.draftkings.com Our guy just had a great year. He's in studio with us. He just signed an extension too. So. Charles Lee, the head coach of the Hornets. What's up?

[Charles Lee]

How you doing today, Ryan? Thanks for having me on.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Let's start. This season was so much fun. I had so much fun watching your team. You know, it was. It was a team we were talking about. Cause it was like, hey, have you. Have you checked out the Hornets since this start? So you know, look, rough start, some injuries there. But how did the overall season go based on your expectations?

[Charles Lee]

Great season, real successful. I think not only did our team get better, a lot of players individually got better. Had some like career years or we got to see some growth in some different areas. I thought that our front office did a phenomenal job of adding to the roster in a lot of different ways, accumulating more assets through trades. But I love the resilience of the group. I thought that, like you said early on, we had some injuries. I thought the team was really committed to working at a higher level. The standards in the whole building, I thought, just rose in the off season. And then for some guys to have injuries happen that they've already kind of experienced before, it would have been easy for a lot of people to just be like, oh, here we go again. We're the Hornets. We're going to have a bad year of injuries. I did.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You did? Yeah. Because I was like, I'm excited. And I was like, all right, whatever.

[Charles Lee]

And you're like most. And like, that's human nature. And credit to our guys, credit to our coaching staff, performance staff, everyone just continued to, like, lean into what we do even more and trust the process, trust the daily improvement mindset, trust in each other and try to help build each other up. And then I thought, all of a sudden, we hit the ground running once we got everybody back healthy.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Every team talks about culture in every single sport. And it gets to the point, I think when you're on the media side, you're like, oh, cool culture. Here's the cool buzzword. Yeah, yeah, you're gonna make shirts and you're gonna put some sayings up around the facility and all these different things. But I was watching your exit interview kind of stuff that you were doing at least, like, as the head coach. Not the. Not the private stuff, obviously, but just talking to the media going, hey, these guys said they wanted to get closer, that they wanted to train together, and it felt like a real thing. So how do you, in your second year, when. When you know what the goal is, but the actual execution of changing the belief that the team maybe doesn't have in themselves because of previous years. Like, what are real, tangible things that you were able to do with this group collectively to get them to start believing in themselves?

[Charles Lee]

A big part of it was to keep talking to them about action is what really gets the job done. Talk is cheap. And to your point, we all talk about culture. We all talk about, we're gonna do all these things. We talk about we wanna win, but what are the actual actions that you were taking to do those things? And that's part of controlling the controllables. Yeah, we can't determine what the outcomes are gonna be, but we definitely can control. Like, did we prepare? Did you guys Watch the film of the personnel tape that we sent out the night before. Is that a challenge?

[Ryan Ruocco]

At times.

[Charles Lee]

At times it is. You know, I think that we all give each other assignments to do, and you trust that people are doing it, but I think that the guy is actually, like, really locked in and committed. The next day you come in and you're like, hey, tell me about Ryan. And they're able to give you. Okay. He has this tendency, they like to run these sets. Now you're like, okay, now we're getting somewhere. And so I thought that our team just really was about showing this level of action and commitment to action, and they pushed each other, and I thought that it really just kind of helped us because, like you said, mantras are cool, buzzwords are cool, but you have to live it. You have to actually have the actions.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Being the head coach, how different is it now being, like a partner with the front office, where it's like, I'm sure every now and then when you're assistant coach at other stops, it's like, hey, thanks for your input. But how different was that for you, having something where you're really aligned with the group, trying to figure out what you want as opposed to just a guy on the staff?

[Charles Lee]

Yeah, it was definitely different, but it was a lot of fun from the standpoint of, like you said, now your words have some weight. You're brought into a couple other meetings that you probably wouldn't have been privy to before. But it's a lot of fun because I got to do it with a guy in Jeff Peterson that I respect as a person and as a boss almost. And I think that the way that we see how a team can be successful, how we can have sustained success within an organization is very similar. Does he have a different viewpoint maybe, of how you get there than I do? At times, yes. But it's great to be able to sit down and have a differing of opinions or have the same opinion and then be able to go execute it together and be so aligned. I think that our ownership group, it's the same way, like, I get to work with a front office and an ownership group that we can have healthy conversations, healthy debates, all knowing that we're working towards one ultimate goal, and that's to try to bring championships to Charlotte for an example.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Like, go back to last year's draft with a high pick. It's loaded at the top. I mean, I'm sure you're not going to sit here and tell me, like, actually, I wanted somebody else. Then we took the nipple. But when and when they're going like, hey, this is maybe the way we're leaning and this is what we think like a con Knipple can do with your team. Are you, are you trying to figure out, like, okay, here's what I'm seeing as somebody, you know, that grew up playing and is coached in a bunch of different spots, like, how collaborative is that kind of decision?

[Charles Lee]

It's extremely collaborative. And that's the best organizations that I've been a part of. They have that. And so, you know, when I was in Atlanta, coach Bud was able to have a good relationship with Wes Wilcox at that point. And then when we went to Milwaukee, it was John and Bud and then seeing Boston and Joe and Brad being able to work together, that's how you, I think, effectively put together championship teams. Like, you have to have that dialogue. And so, and they have. And Jeff and his group do a really good job of, you know, running the numbers and understanding the salary cap and what pieces fit together. And then I think from a coaching perspective, we can talk about the day to day and, you know, these personalities get along well together on the corridor. These type of attributes kind of help us defensively or offensively. And so as we went through that draft process, it was good to say, hey, this is where we see our team right now. This is what we saw day to day at practice, during games, what we struggled with, what we're good at, and then what player is best going to help not only our environment, but also the on court product. And I think we were able to figure, figure that out at a pretty high level with all four rookies being really impactful between Liam, Kahn, Ryan and Sion.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, that's the other part of this where it's like, hey, do I like their depth? All of a sudden, like when you turn it around, you're going, okay, they're actually a lot of fun to watch, but we'll see. And then I'm going, man, they're like asking a lot of Paul Krenner. They're asking a lot of CEON coming in here, like being a defensive guy where it's like, hey, you know, I know you had the ball in your hands a ton, but there's just other guys and you're going to have to accept this role pretty quickly. And I thought that stuff was incredibly impressive, but was there any moment where with Knipple where you went, okay, I knew he was going to be good, but this is ridiculous how quickly he's found a way to contribute yes.

[Charles Lee]

No, he was going to be good. When he had his draft workout, there was just this level of seriousness with him. I think I even walked over at one point to say something to him during a drill, and I kind of made a joke, and he looked at me like, this isn't funny. I'm here to work. I'm here to get drafted. Um, I kind of saw.

[Ryan Ruocco]

And he hadn't been drafted, and he

[Charles Lee]

hadn't been drafted yet. And he's like, yeah, coach, I kind of see what you're saying. But, like, he just had this look of like, I'm not. I'm not joking. And I was like, I like this guy. Like, you can coach him hard. You can kind of, like, say what you need to say, and he can get the message without getting too emotional, which I thought was pretty cool. He's just even keel. And I felt that during the season, all of a sudden, like, he just doesn't back down from anybody. He's not afraid of a moment. I think we saw it a little bit at Duke where he can be the guy that can play off a flag, and then all of a sudden, flag goes down, and he can be the guy and dominate the ball and play with the ball. And so Mello's on the court, Brandon's on the court. He can play with them, but then they get hurt. He can all of a sudden step up and be the guy. And so he's so effective in a lot of different ways. And he picks things up so quickly, how people are guarding him, or watching Donovan Mitchell all of a sudden do his little high pickup and get fouled. Now Khan's trying to do the high pickup, and he gets fou. And it's fun to watch him play the game and how he approaches every day.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I couldn't believe the way he saw the game at that age. And I think you just nailed it. Because my favorite part of him is like, all right, pick whatever other four you want. He'll figure out a way to fit in with the other four. It doesn't matter. Like, any combination of the other four guys, he'll find a way to impact it.

[Charles Lee]

It's a fact. And that's where. When you can find guys that want to, like you said, the whole rookie class and some of the players that obviously we already had on the roster and inherited, um, they. They all. They. When they say they want to win, you have to find other ways to impact the game and how to win. And, like, they're all figuring out what is my role to Try to help impact that day's game or. Or this situation.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah. I think maybe the only concern you would have with Khan is that he started becoming a media darling. Were you afraid he was going to be on first take, like during the season?

[Charles Lee]

No fears of that at all. I mean, I think that you got to talk to him a little bit.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I did.

[Charles Lee]

Media is not his thing. He is definitely a more reserved person, but you can get out some pretty good moments from him.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Was there part of the scattering report that if he wasn't playing enough that a parent might call, oh, never, Never

[Charles Lee]

that type of fear or worry.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Does that happen? That must happen. Like, you think if it happens in college and you're like, do you realize how young some of these guys are in the NBA when you're the head coach, it's like, this isn't Little League baseball, but can my kid get more shots? I mean, I'm not asking for a specific example.

[Charles Lee]

No, no, I don't need. And I don't have any. Like, luckily, you would never have had a parent. Luckily, in my time, I have not had a parent call. I will say post game, when you're walking through hallways or something, you run by people.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah.

[Charles Lee]

They give you looks like, oh, okay. Or you know, the snide comment of, yeah, coach, you did a good job. My kid could have done more or whatever. But like, nothing like dead on. Like, I need to come sit down in your office to try to lobby for my kid to play more.

[Ryan Ruocco]

All right, well, that's good. I think it's. Cause you have a good group there. All right. I'm not a guy that will pretend I haven't said other things about players because you're sitting next to me here. I've had a hard time with Lamelo. Okay. I've had a hard time. I understand he is insanely talented. And when you're that big with that kind of vision, with the high pick and roll that you're going to be running as like a default thing, when it's right, it can be beautiful with him. And then when he's surrounded with better players, like, I sort of get it. It. But there's also these moments where I'm like, I'm not sure what's going on. And it's really interesting because, like, I was watching you last year and I was like, I wonder. New coach coming in. He's kind of the man. He's the face of the franchise. But I don't love all the habits. There was a game against Brooklyn at Brooklyn Last year you were holding up.

[Charles Lee]

My mind's already going back there. So is this the game Trey Mann dunked?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, but it was a close game, but I thought the most interesting thing and it was really, it was only like a couple months into the regular season. I think it was like 14 games in or something. I started tracking like mellow and the substitutions. Like you took them out in the fourth and then I think you had eight or nine more substitutions and you never put them back into like a one point game. And I was like, oh, not on your behalf, but I was like, this, is this, is this hard coaching? Is this, hey, I'm, I'm the new guy and that you have to break some of these habits. Like I look, he's your guy and you're going to back your guy. But take me through, like, understanding that evolution of, of what it takes to coach him and then get this kind of season out of him where it felt like it was the most engaged because obviously the stakes were higher too, because I think for me, just sitting at home, there's so much I wouldn't understand about what it's like to coach someone who's that, who's that specific.

[Charles Lee]

Yeah, he's so special and good observation by you. And as you could tell, that's. That's my guy. Like, you all of a sudden said mellow and I had to adjust my seat. I kind of wanted to get closer to you, like what to say about my man.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Real fired up. So luckily your chest didn't pop out.

[Charles Lee]

But no, it's such a joy to get to coach him because he's always had this winning spirit to him or this winning mindset or wanting to impact winning and win at a higher level. And so he's always said that to me from day one that I've gotten here. And so the conversation has been, well, then I'm going to coach you that way. I'm going to coach you as hard as I have to to be able to get out the most out of you. Because you're one of our leaders, you're one of our best players. The guys are gonna follow what you do. And part of what I have to let you do is I gotta let you be you because being you is great. And like, he's a magician of what he can do, especially on the offensive end and how he can playmake and how much he kind of elevates everybody else's game just with like, what he's able to bring to a game. But I also need you to be engaged defensively. And I think that year one, he took on that challenge and the mindset for me and for him and our relationship was, how do we just get you to play both sides of the ball and, like, set a standard? Like, let's. There's an expectation, there's a standard of how hard I want you to play on both ends. And you know, in that particular game, whether it's Melo, whether it's any other player on our team, if you're not meeting the standards, then you have to earn to be on the court. And if you haven't earned that opportunity, you won't play. And it's one of those moments, though, where I think he took it in stride. There's been plenty of other players that have had very similar experiences at the end of the game if they're not producing at the level at which we all hold ourselves to where they don't play. And his response wasn't to be combative or be upset. It was, now I gotta be better the next game. And I think that we've just seen him take a whole nother step this year in like, number one is defensive engagement. All the deflections, all the. He had a couple occupy second contests is what we call it, where somebody's showing their hands, he comes by and blocks a shot and. And his individual defense. And he won. We do an internal tracking of defensive metrics. He won defensive player of the month for us this season as well. And then offensive.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Which month was that?

[Charles Lee]

It was.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Was it October? Was it?

[Charles Lee]

No, it was March. It was March.

[Ryan Ruocco]

It was March.

[Charles Lee]

It was March. And so like, along that when we were playing really, really well, you know, go February, March. And his activity was great, and the team was definitely a little bit up in arms. We had a tight race the last couple months of the season of who won defensive player of the month, and he pulled it out, but also offensively, I think his willingness at times to trust his teammates went to a whole nother level playing off the ball. His shot selection, I thought, really changed, and his shot distribution became different and he was able to get some more catch and shoot threes and stuff like that. So long winded answer. But there was just so much growth I saw from him from year one to year two, and a lot of it was. It was already in him again to want to be a winning player. And it was my job and our whole coaching staff's job to just continue to hold him to the standards that he wanted to be at.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Do you Think it was because of the summer league run you had with the Spurs 20 years ago, that they were like, hey, we. How many guys on the team know that you played summer league?

[Charles Lee]

Oh, they know. A couple of them know. Either they've looked by themselves, or I might have had a comment here or there where, you know, I've said something. One day, actually, I will. I remember this. The guys are warming up. They're doing their little dynamic warmup. And we were in San Antonio, and the banners are up there. And one of them was during the year I went to training camp with the team. And so I think I was standing next to Khan. Brandon Melo might have been right there. And I said, do you think I get credit for that banner right there? Since I went to training camp with the spurs and played summer league with them. And they just kind of started laughing and they were like, you definitely don't give any credit for that. No ring, no crown, no one's bringing you back for the celebration of that championship.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Do you remember who coached you?

[Charles Lee]

Yes. Summer league was coached by coach Mike Budenholzer, which is why pretty much that started our relationship.

[Ryan Ruocco]

And he's the first guy that hired you?

[Charles Lee]

Yes.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So you were that impressive as a basketball mind, as a summer league player, that then he hired you, what, like 12 years later?

[Charles Lee]

Yes. I think it was just my professionalism. It wasn't anything about my mind or anything. It was just he showed up on time, he played really hard, he hasn't gone. He was fun to be around. That's what it was.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Who's your favorite player? That might not be an obvious one of someone that you coached as an assistant. So you can't pick any Hornets and go back the last couple years. Maybe somebody that would surprise us as an answer.

[Charles Lee]

Ooh, surprise. I mean, the obvious ones are Chris and Man. Okay. Dante. Like, all these guys, like, everybody already knows one guy for me that I thought actually taught me a ton of stuff, and I got to work with a good mouth. Shelvin. Matt.

[Ryan Ruocco]

His, like, loved him in college.

[Charles Lee]

Great college player. But, like, his professionalism and how he

[Ryan Ruocco]

approached the game, maximizing possessions. I used to kind of love the way he played. Look at that.

[Charles Lee]

Yeah. And, like, he maximized everything that he could give to the game, too.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Cause I was kind of like, man, I hope this guy makes it. That's how much I liked him in college. That's such a great answer.

[Charles Lee]

And he had a heck of a journey, and he just. He knew how to build relationship from the guys at the Best players on the team to the guys that were at the end of the bench. He went from Washington to this place, and so he. He understood the journey and what it takes to actually be successful and how to stay in the league. And he was a smart basketball mind, so always enjoyed working with him.

[Ryan Ruocco]

That's great. There's something that I remember, like, another team talking to me about with Miami, and they go, look at Miami and this development at the NBA level. Like, look at all these guys that they kind of bring in. And you're like, who's this guy? And next thing you know, he's like, playing real rotation minutes. You were in Boston, where I think Boston kind of pivoted to emphasizing some of that stuff. And you start looking around being like, hey, this is a championship caliber roster when it's healthy, but also, like, look how good they're doing on the margins. How do you see development under your, like, responsibilities and also the staff's responsibility? Because I still feel like that's. That's a part that's missing for a lot of teams in the NBA. It's like, you get the player, you get him into camp. It's like, we'll see if he survives or not. And I think you guys have shown just in one year how quickly you're developing some of your guys that you're bringing in.

[Charles Lee]

Yeah, number one credit goes to, like, front office again, Jeff and his group. Identifying the right people to come into our environment, identifying the right talent that we think can still grow. And so, like, player development is, like, the backbone of our culture. I would say it's a big part of what we want to do as staff members. Like, we're focused on trying to help our staff continue to grow in a lot of different ways, too, but definitely the players. And so as soon as they come on board, we've put together a little bit of an onboarding process. We've given the players a pod where they feel like they're getting a holistic view and plan for how they can maximize their career that year. And I think that we just do a great job of sticking with it. And it's like the level of communication and again, alignment and collaboration has to go into it is huge. And I think that we've been able to put together some good plans to help guys like Moussa d' Abbade come into our system and simplify his game a little bit, while also trying to add some layers to it and putting him in the right positions. And so, you know, credit to them, credit to the coaching staff, I think for being able to look at players and say, okay, this is what he does really well, let's keep leaning into that. And like, this is the one part of the game I think just this year that we can add, and not trying to add 4, 5, 6 different things for some of our role players, it's, how do we make him a better connector? How can he impact us immediately and then, like, step by step, you know, trust the process. You'll add some layers to their game.

[Ryan Ruocco]

All right, final thought on this one. Because you turn things around and then the Orlando playing game happens, right? Okay.

[Charles Lee]

Why you gotta take me back there?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Well, but I. I think there's. Well, there'll be a bad part and then it'll be good. Okay, how about that?

[Charles Lee]

All right. All right.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I thought they were so mad and it just. You were the next team they were gonna play and let's start. I was like, oh, my God. Is there anything to the lesson? Because, you know, the Miami game was. Was just tough, right? Tough game. You pull it out. The lesson to like, hey, this group hasn't really experienced what that next level. And it wasn't like it was a first round series, so you got like six or seven of these games. But as disappointing as it is to know, like, hey, people are going to be coming for you now, you had this great second half, but just a little bit of some. Just some sort of. Of part where the team will come in next year going, like, hey, there is another level to this of intensity that maybe we got a few minutes of in those two games.

[Charles Lee]

We definitely learned that lesson, like the intensity, the physicality, the level of information that you have to go through for that type of game, because it almost does feel like a playoff game. And you got to be able to adjust really quickly because you don't have a seven game series to say, hey, let's keep this in our back pocket and throw it out there in game two. You got to be able to react quickly. And so I thought our group got a great experience from that. It's unfortunate that it had to be with that type of point differential, but I think that honestly, it was so

[Ryan Ruocco]

bad from the beginning that I was like, oh. And I felt like Orlando was still so mad about the Philly game. And then we see they go to seven with the one seed. So maybe you guys can collectively go, hey, it was still actually a really talented team that was so mad. We were just the next guys.

[Charles Lee]

I know, but the other part, like you just said, I think that we learned, especially at the end of the season, we played a bunch of playoff teams at the end of the day, like we were trying to compete for seating, but we were going up against the likes of Philly and Boston on the road and New York, obviously they didn't play their games, their players, the last game of the season. But when you have to do it back to back to back nights, it almost gave us like a playoff feel. And so it was a really good experience for us. And as I try to tell the group, we got to be proud of what we accomplished this year, but we also got to be pissed how we ended that season. To not get to where we ultimately know that we could have gotten to was a good learning lesson for us and it should be fueling us for the whole off season.

[Ryan Ruocco]

People rave about you. You know, I mean, it's one of the nicest things you can hear from other teams is like, hey, Charlotte's doing some really smart stuff and people were talking about you as an assistant and to see you have the success in your second year, it actually makes a lot of sense the way everybody's been talking about the Hornets and we can't wait to watch you play hoops again. So thanks, man.

[Charles Lee]

Well, thank you for having me. A It's a huge testament to the people around me. I can't do it all by myself.

[Big Cat]

Hey guys, it's Big Cat. When you're on a long road trip traveling between cities, anything can happen. Flat tires, endless traffic, stopping to see a 50 foot wooden alligator. But I suspect everything actually happens for a Reese's. Like, is Grit Week really a time to visit different training camps? Or is it just an excuse to check out different places to get a Reese's? And when we stop to fuel up? Or are we really stopping to to refuel on a recess? After countless miles thinking about chocolate and peanut butter, it all starts to make sense that everything happens for a recess.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You want details?

[Charles Lee]

Fine.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet. What's up?

[Brendan Haywood]

I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Let me tell you what's required. Today's life advice is brought to you by Microsoft 365 copilot. What if you can add an AI assistant to your work without leaving your workflow built into Microsoft Word, Excel, and Outlook? Copilot works where you work, helping you do more in the apps you already use in Word. Copilot helps turn scattered notes into a first draft. In Excel, it generates insights from your data. And in Outlook, it cuts through the noise to get you up to speed faster. The apps you know go further with Copilot. Learn more at Microsoft on the365copilot.com work. Okay, the gang's all here back at our home bases. Thank you to everybody for the Chicago shows. Great feedback on that one. So we had some people sneaking in the old life advice box in between tanking solution emails, which again, we do not accept tanking solution emails and life advice. But thank you for those that reached out about some of the front office stuff, something I always love to doing. So anyway, we'll probably do that again next year. Good to see everybody. How is everyone?

[Siri]

Good to be home.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You look tired. That was like an exhausted. We get a little magic gear from you today.

[Siri]

Oh, yeah, like this?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Understated.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Siri]

I don't know. Yeah, it's good stuff.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I don't know if you're going to do deadlifts or breastfeed.

[Siri]

Just an oversized tee.

[Kyle]

Oh, man.

[Siri]

Yeah, my guys hooked me up.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yep. Is that you? Like, just so heavyweight solidarity behind Jamal Mosley getting another shot.

[Siri]

You know, I put this shirt on today. I haven't worn it. It's really nice. It's like 90 degrees in the Northeast today, so the short sleeve shirts are out and tobacco country. I put it on and I was like, are Pistons fans gonna think this is like some sort of like, weird, hey, like, you guys are lost? You know, it's like the guy showed up to the funeral, you know, just to make sure my guy was dead. I have no beef with Pistons fans, but no, this is just like, I don't know. I just put the shirt on. I like the shirt. Shirt. It's hot today. Short sleeves.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Just like the shirt, man. It's a great answer. You know, you get these guys giving you the what for the business. Like, hey, what's with the shirt? Be like, hey, I just like the shirt. Is that all right?

[Siri]

It's kind of a sick shirt.

[Kyle]

Real quick.

[Siri]

Can you see this?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Oh, wow. What is that, a frog?

[Kyle]

Is that Oscar the Grouch out of the trash can?

[Siri]

First off, it's stuff the Magic Dragon.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Okay, sorry.

[Siri]

Let's get that right.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Sorry.

[Siri]

One of the best mascots. The best mascot in the NBA. And it's actually a play on Taylor Swift's 1989 album cover. So we'll.

[Ryan Ruocco]

We'll cross over.

[Kyle]

Deep cut, you would even say, maybe.

[Siri]

Listen, those who get It. Get it. I knew I'd have to explain it to you guys, but if I'm wearing this out, I don't think I'll have to explain it.

[Kyle]

I think I'm gonna have to do a lot of explaining. G Units reissuing the Reeboks reissuing the G Unit sneakers. So I think I might have to do some explaining soon once those. Once those hit the old crib. But they really did look awesome. If you can just remember back in the day.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So I'm excited for that.

[Siri]

That's some Gina gear.

[Kyle]

Ready to explain them?

[Siri]

Who did?

[Ryan Ruocco]

I had a dream I was playing ping Pong with 50 cent last night, so that's fucking cool.

[Kyle]

Did he win?

[Ryan Ruocco]

I think he beat me and he was really giving it to me and then I was winning the rematch and then I woke up, so I don't know what that means.

[Kyle]

Dude. I wouldn't be on. Go back to sleep tonight.

[Ryan Ruocco]

That'd be awesome. Finish up unfulfilled. Yeah, Maybe we'll play again tonight in bed early tonight. Man. There's a lot of messaging going on in that T shirt, Kyle. Like, I'm just sitting there like, I don't need any explanation whatsoever. When it's Speed Club, Tommy Bahama in the background. I don't know. Did you sign a deal and none of us know what's. What's going on with you right now?

[Kyle]

No, I just, you know, I don't really have any Knicks gear and I just wanted to have something behind me and, you know, I threw the Tommies up and I think they. I think they work. I think they work well.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I love it.

[Kyle]

Chilling me softly on my left and the. The Paradise Marlin Speed Club. So it just feels like the vibe in the 90s today.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So I got to give it up to Tommy Bahama because he is. He has stuck around in a way that I did not think it would happen.

[Kyle]

I agree.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You know, because some people were like, do I go on a diet? It's like, nope. And you can wear the same size shirt you want. It just will be different. It's sort of. You can just pick a size. It's not even. And it's just going to work. You're going to be fine. And then you're going to go on vacations and you're good. Good. You can gain 20, lose 20, doesn't matter. It's actually brilliant, now that I think about it. Huge thing, Tommy. Yeah. Unbelievable. All right, so congrats to Mr. Bahama. All right, we get a couple Emails here. This one is pretty straightforward. 26 year old male, 62170. No notable gym stats, but I did run a 50 mile ultra marathon in 11 hours.

[Siri]

Imagine running for like half a day.

[Ryan Ruocco]

No, not yet. But like, if you say no gym stats. But here's something for you.

[Siri]

Here's the most impressive thing anyone's ever

[Ryan Ruocco]

said on the podcast, right?

[Brendan Haywood]

That took me.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Not dated a lot, but Hillary Duff dumped her husband for me, you know. Well, no, I'm. I'm just trying to think of like

[Kyle]

the doing more cool things.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

[Siri]

She's back too now, huh?

[Ryan Ruocco]

She's been back in a big way. Don't even.

[Kyle]

I don't think she ever left.

[Siri]

It's definitely back.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yes.

[Siri]

We'll just leave it at that.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Good for her. Try to get her on the pod. Dudes are excited. NBA comp Dante DiVincenzo I live in a small mountain west town where the main nightlife scene is a swing dance. It's swing dancing at one of the two local bars, and for the listeners who may be unfamiliar, swing dancing is a partner dance where you spin your partner around the floor, different from line or square dancing. Last night I took my girlfriend out dancing and after one song, a woman probably in her 80s that I've never seen before, approached my girlfriend and me and said, can I tell you something? You're ruining the dance floor for everyone else. You bumped into me while dancing. I'm completely caught off guard by her tone and respond with a quote, sorry, we didn't mean to. Which she responds, I know you didn't mean to, but you're ruining it for everyone else. You need to learn to keep your elbows in. I don't know. Then she walked away. It's like a Lou Dort situation. Yeah, right, right. He's initiating all the contact. The dance floor is about the size of a pickleball court with around 12 couples dancing, so it was moderately crowded. It's normal for couples to occasionally bump into each other, and my girlfriend and I aren't reckless dancers. Wow, this is way over my head, all this stuff. The whole interaction didn't sit right with me, so I brought my girl back out to the dance set to the next song. Shortly after that song, as the old woman walked by our table, I asked, hey, how'd we do that time? Nice. Her tone completely shifted from earlier as she sweetly replied, oh, so much better. I'm so proud of you guys. All right. I wasn't content to leave it there. Uh oh. So I passive aggressively added on quote. Well, good, because I wouldn't want to ruin the dance floor for everyone. I don't want to ruin it for everyone else. We are just trying. We just are trying to have fun. The woman seeming to get it at that point, said quote, yeah, me too. And walked away. Hmm. You went back a second time, huh, man? The thing I'm left wondering is, am I an asshole for feeling the need to put an 80 something year old woman in her place? Should I have just left it alone and my girlfriend and I could have laughed at the initial interaction later on? Or did this woman, despite her age, need to be reminded that age doesn't give you a passion to be combative at a public space? Also, what was an 80 year old woman doing out at a bar? Hey, man, living life, dude.

[Kyle]

That's crazy, right? That's crazy.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Don't. You're 26, so I get why you're saying it right now, but when you're

[Kyle]

older, you're gonna be so happy.

[Ryan Ruocco]

You're gonna be like, she's awesome. All right, so back off.

[Kyle]

Taking notes. She's drinking. That's keeping you out at 80, it's like, all right, maybe it's time to try rum.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I don't know, but make sure Maude has only two Manhattans. That's a great old name.

[Charles Lee]

I think there's something.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Now I'm wondering, was I wrong for feeling the need to push back on an 80 year old woman? Should I have just let it go and laughed at the first interaction later with my girlfriend? Was she out of line enough that her age shouldn't excuse her for being reminded that a bar is a shared space, not her living room? Thanks. Big fan of the pod out here in the Mountain west.

[Kyle]

I think there's two schools of thought. If you're saying, listen, nobody's special, everyone sometimes need a taste of their own medicine, I couldn't really argue with you if you you on the merits of that. Me personally, I think old folks just get a pass and they say stuff like this. Like if you have a. Well, in certain situations, I think, and this is a mildly one, and you bump into a lady who's in her 80s, I mean, you don't know what's going on with bone density and stuff. She could be in real trouble.

[Ryan Ruocco]

So calcium's always been an issue.

[Kyle]

I know. So, you know, and that aside, like, just older people have like less of a filter. Like they'll just be like, why did you get all those tattoos?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Like, you know what I mean?

[Kyle]

They'll Be like, why would you do that to yourself? Like, oh yeah, that's an interesting hairstyle. Like they just, they just say stuff like that. So that's like par for the course. That's something I wouldn't even register as like, yeah, I need to correct. I need to write this wrong, but that's me. I do think they're two schools of thought and I, I certainly live and let live and shout out to the old folks. I respect my elders. I think it's important.

[Siri]

I actually don't like the give old people a pass thing because I think old people like think that they just get a pass for everything because they're old. Like, I'm not gonna go, I'm not.

[Kyle]

Oh, here.

[Siri]

Beating up old people, like, don't get me wrong. But they just.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Thanks.

[Siri]

They do think they can say whatever they want and I'll probably be that way some way too. So like, maybe you can call me hypocritical, it's fine. But like, I do think it's okay to like at least push back a little bit. Like, you don't get this. You don't get this isn't like Disney World all the time for you don't could do whatever you want. So sure. I don't know, were you a problem or was she just like, I guess I would have take some self inventory. Like were you kind of being a little aggressive to other people giving you the eye or she just like totally. It's just totally a one off and she's coming up here because you're like maybe encroaching on her space a little bit. But I don't. I think old people need to be put in check a little bit more because they have a lot of freedoms that they take.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Whoa.

[Kyle]

I understand what he's saying.

[Siri]

No, again, not beating up any old people in public, but you can talk back to an old person if it is correct.

[Kyle]

Here's the thing though, for this situation, if she was like, hey, you were talking too loud and you ruined my dinner, maybe there's something. But there was a physical bump and we went over the bones and the calcium stuff already. Even if that's a little bit of a joke, if there is a physical bump there, some people are allowed to be a little bit more rattled than others. And I think especially when they're older, there's just a couple points in her department there where it's like, listen, do I think she's overreacting?

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yes.

[Kyle]

But I think because this like it was a physical accident, you know, Sometimes a strong gust of wind will just blow an old woman over. It's a fact.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I've seen it.

[Kyle]

So, like, you know, if it's. If it's an elbow problem, you know, I think. I think she might. If she's just. Maybe she's just a little rattled, and I'd just. I'd give her a little grace there. But I understand what you're saying.

[Ryan Ruocco]

If it's just like.

[Kyle]

Like a problem in a grocery line and she's like, well, you should just let me go in front of you. Like, I understand that. If you're like, you know what? I got time today. But for something like this, I would have probably deferred. I actually liked his. How'd we do that time? And I would have left it there. That, like what Ryan says, like, oh, you really went back, man. But, you know, whatever.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I think if.

[Kyle]

If you're of that mind, I. I got. Don't really have anything to refute it.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I. The only issue I had is you went back the second time. Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle]

It was actually a great line by

[Ryan Ruocco]

him on round one. Yeah. And then she seemed to be really nice and said it, like, in a sweet voice, and I think that should have disarmed you enough because you're probably not wrong. And you're right. Like, there. There's certain times where if it's an old person in a spot and you just try to think of, like, your grandmother or depending on how old you are, like, your mother, and then you go, like, how upset would I be if somebody were like. Like giving my grandmother a mother a hard time? Because whatever kind of patience you need with somebody a little bit older, it's not like every single old person is completely impatient, because that's not fair either. But I do think, to Suri's point, there should be a little bit of grace when you're a lot younger, where you just go like, okay, let's see where this goes. And she was probably out of line. You probably did bump into her. She's probably going to go a little over the top because she doesn't expect to get elbowed. But at the same time, you're out there dancing at 80 years old, so lateral quickness, you know, like, you know, she could be fouling people left and right. So she says something because, you know, older people are just going to let it fly sometimes. But you're right. Like to. Shruti's other thing is that it doesn't just mean chaos. And this is the thing that I brought up at the gym is that something happens like once guys turn 70 and they just are like, hey, you know, you're in the locker and you just like. It's always like auto. Like say you're at the gym locker and you're opening up your locker and you were there first. Their locker could be the one right next to you. And they're gonna get some naked old man thigh on your. Because. And you just go, hey, is there any way, like, I'm not gonna live here? Let me get my stuff. It's gonna taste less than two minutes. Like give me a little, little space, man.

[Siri]

And your sponsor.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Shut up, virgin. Yeah, right. And it's just. No. And then when they take your equipment, like they look at you going like, eh, let's see. See if you say anything to me

[Siri]

or you're not gonna. We know. I know you're not gonna do anything. So I can say whatever I want.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah. Yeah. Right. So there's a bunch of people out there just ruining the day to day because they know they're kind of getting away with it. I don't know that she crossed over into that. And the fact that you even sent us email, like, like, I'm not going to give you a hard time about it. You probably could have just not gone back for second seconds on this one.

[Kyle]

Yeah. I think there's a difference between difficult and nasty. And this was more of a difficult elder and a nasty elder. I think I'd maybe be thinking about what can I do to get my point across. But if you're just being difficult. Yeah. Hey, two plus two equals five.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Good for you. All right. 2206 one. We got a lot of lonely hearts club guys right around. Everybody's out of college right now. You're freaking out about the summer. We'll see if it works out. Dudes are worried. We get so many of these emails right around graduation time or when your college year ends. 2261,195 lift three, four times a week max. Benched 315 a year and a half ago. Damn, dude, that's great. Have not maxed out since. No squats. I am a member of the Bum Knee Club Comp. Nick Collison, massive blue guy. He and I, I'm graduating this year at a Big 12 school in the Great Plains. While at the bars a couple weeks ago, I reconnected with my ex's best friend. We spent the night together. And a few more after that. All right. Already problematic. But look, you get those degrees in hands. Walk with that robe Anything's possible, right? We had a date scheduled for the week. She's no longer friendly with my ex, so I did not think that'd be an issue. After all, we only dated for two months over a year ago. I'm graduating this year, but I plan to get my master's, most likely at the same university or surrounding one. And she's currently in her master's program at the same university. The time I've spent with her, I've felt a real connection, something I've really struggled to find recently. I think I know what that feels like, and she seemed to be reciprocating the same feelings. I'm good at knowing when someone is interested and when they are not, and I never picked up any negative signals from her. Her tomorrow was supposed to be our first date, and out of nowhere I get a text saying she does not think she is ready to continue forward. This is after about a week of consistent texting to the point where she's apologizing if she did not respond for a couple hours. She stated she was not ready to continue because of her getting out of a previous relationship. Not long ago, she had mentioned something about this at one point, the first time we spent time together, but then changed her mind after I asked her out again in the morning. I followed up by asking if there would be a later time when she would want to try again or would it not be worth my time? She responded by saying yes and don't hesitate to come talk to me at the bars.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I'll still be out. Obviously not really working on me, but yeah, right.

[Ryan Ruocco]

It doesn't mean I'm staying home. Few questions. Do you guys think she's feeling the same way I feel and truly is just not ready for something serious yet? Or do you think this is an easy excuse to no longer see me? Is it possible she was only interested in me to get back at her best friend because they had a messy end of their friendship and the satisfaction of revenge has worn off? If I try to pursue this again and ask her out, how long would be a good time to wait before attempting again? I believe she broke up with her ex about a month and a half ago. Also, some added context. She's very attractive, probably a 9 or a 10. I'm a solid 8. But I played guitar for her. Well, now that we have the guitar part, what a closer.

[Kyle]

I think it's tough.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Well, she's definitely come back if you play guitar, man. Man, don't worry about it.

[Kyle]

Yeah, learn some new songs. I Think it's tough because a lot of time I don't know if it's always been this way. Maybe Ryan could speak to that, but I feel like a lot of times people will just say the easiest thing to get out of whatever this is heading towards. You know what I mean? Like, even if it would be like,

[Ryan Ruocco]

I'm really not interested in you, man,

[Kyle]

like, there's like, some other kinds of excuses, and it seems like a solid one.

[Ryan Ruocco]

It's just like, I'm not.

[Kyle]

I'm just not ready right now, and it's like, it's just not free. What I really mean is, I'm not doing this with you. So I don't know. This could be totally the truth, but I think it's a much easier way of getting out of things when you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings when it's actually probably doing a little more damage in the long term because you're thinking of what the get back is. So I'm not saying that's what it is, but I think it's tough to suss that out these days. I don't know if it was that way before or if people were a little more direct back in the day. What do you think about that?

[Ryan Ruocco]

I think all of it's the same, to be honest with you. I really do. I can go ahead.

[Siri]

There's just new methods of how you could potentially do it. I would say this is probably like 80, 20. Like, this is just an excuse because she doesn't really want to hang out with you anymore. I mean, for whatever reason. It could be any of the reasons that you laid out. I don't think it's a zero, though. I think, all right, we talked about the.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I don't think it's a zero at all. All.

[Siri]

Yeah, hang around the group. You know, maybe you do see her out. Then you. Then this gives you an excuse to text her again and just say, hey, like, you know, it's been some time. Like, you know, been thinking about. You want to grab drinks or something? Another time, Grab dinner? Like, I think I, you know, I wouldn't aggressively, you know, be the guy who's, like, texting her and being around, because clearly, like, that's not what she wants right now. But I think just, you know, play it kind of cool. Give it some time. It's not a hard. No, I think it's an uphill climb, and there might just be the thing where it's like, hey, actually, she's just doing this because she doesn't want to like, have any beef with any of that sort of friend group, even if she's not friends with your, your ex anymore. So hang her on the hoop, I think would be the, would be the, the solution. And, you know, you never know what happens.

[Kyle]

The other thing I was thinking is maybe like a formal date is some weird line in the sand for her where it's like, wow, that shit just got real. It'd be cool to run into you and go do something, but like a formal date, time and place, like, great call. It's almost like, hey, asking a dude that you want to be your friend to like, do the first thing, like, it's probably fine, but you could totally understand, like if he's like, whoa, dude. I mean, we're just. You're a cool dude. I'm not sure if I want to fucking set up a bowling thing a week from now or whatever. I think maybe that's just one step too far where she's like, this shit

[Ryan Ruocco]

got a little real. It's a chaotic time for youngsters, May. May is very chaotic. It's like, well, if I still date this person after college, does that mean I have to marry them? No. This person that I like, they're moving to Atlanta and I'm living in Chicago. Go, how do I make this work? You've been in the kind of this stable, fake, make believe world for a little while, and then now it's like you're going to pretend it's way more real than it really is. And it seems like our guy's a thinker, maybe an overthinker a little bit. You're throwing a bunch of different theories out there. Could it be because the revenge factor is worn off? Could it be. Look, there was some messy crossfire here. The origin story of this, right? But I always kind of fall back to the simplest rule that everybody seems to ignore all the time. It's like, if somebody wants to hang out with you, they will hang out with me with you. And if they don't want to hang out with you, guess what they do. They don't hang out with you. So I think the move here is to not overthink this, not tell her how much you like her, not worry about all these different dynamics. That all might be completely weird because it could just be as simple as her going like, hey, I don't know, if I lock up with this guy now and we're actually both staying in the same area, then that means that all of a sudden this guy's my boyfriend.

[Kyle]

Don't put a cap on my summer.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Yeah, yeah, right. Like I was going to go to. I was going to go to the Hampton single. Although I think I would pick a different area from this region. I don't know what it would be. Milwaukee.

[Siri]

It could work the other way too. Right. Though, like, the more time, the less weird she'll feel about it.

[Ryan Ruocco]

True. But I think to the point of you need to go in now with zero expectations and it sucks because you feel a connection with her that you haven't felt before. So you're going to be fighting that a little bit. You're going to be thinking about her. You're going to be trying to read all these different moves. I get that part of it. But what you need to do is kind of lower the expectations of what this can be and then you're less likely to fuck it up. You're going to see her out. It's not going to be the formal date thing, which I think was a really good point by Kyle, where it's like, okay, this now thing feels real. So if it turns into a casual hangout from time to time because clearly she liked you enough to hang out with you unless something happened or she just didn't feel like she had any chemistry with you. But I think if you're just kind of around and you're still friendly and there is a little history there, that there's a way that you'll still kind of get this. Maybe the casual thing isn't good enough for you right now, but you probably take that over absolutely nothing. So it sounds like she had a bit of a freak out on life. Like maybe she overthought what's the end game here at a time that, again, is very tough. It's very tough navigating these relationships when you're this age and you're in college and that dreaded May date rolls around and you're like, what is actually happening here? And I would tell you collectively, it's usually a massive waste of time. But you don't know any better because you're like 21, 22.

[Kyle]

Maybe try to catch her at a karaoke bar or karaoke night and just

[Ryan Ruocco]

ready to have that one.

[Kyle]

Belt it out. Just be like, she'll realize it was steak. You're the man, little uncle cracker. Follow me. Subliminal messaging. I don't know, something.

[Ryan Ruocco]

Whoa.

[Kyle]

Be ready.

[Ryan Ruocco]

I don't remember what MTV show it was, but there was some tryout thing like some version of American Idol, which I think was before even American idol and some kid. Kid who looked like he was allowed to go to flora bama once. It was the greatest weekend of his life. And he came out and they were like, who are you going to sing? It was like uncle Crocker. And I was like I want that clip so bad because he wasn't great and he's dressed exactly how you think he is. And the judges were like, whoa.

[Kyle]

I think he had it coming, man.

[Ryan Ruocco]

A fish hook in his hat that brim. Like the only reason, the only time he doesn't dip is when he was singing for the show.

[Kyle]

Put his bottle right behind the stage, right?

[Ryan Ruocco]

I'll just never hear uncle cracker and think of anything other than that kid. Oh, man, that'll do it for the show today. Thanks to kevin, thanks to tom, thanks to siri. Thanks to Kyle. The Ryan Rossillo show. Barstool sports. Sam.