Vibe code vs no-code: Softr’s vision for the future of app building

Summary

Podcast Summary: The SaaS Revolution Show

Episode: Vibe code vs no-code: Softr’s vision for the future of app building
Host: Alex Theuma
Guest: Mariam Hakobyan, CEO of Softr
Date: October 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alex Theuma sits down with Mariam Hakobyan, CEO of Softr, live at SaaStock Europe 2025 in Dublin. The conversation explores the current landscape and future potential of no-code platforms, focusing on Softr's unique approach to business app building, the integration of AI, their growth strategies, and candid reflections on competition, distribution, and where the market is headed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mission and Philosophy of Softr

• Softr is a no-code platform for businesses to build apps such as internal tools, customer portals, and more, aimed at non-technical builders.
• Mariam emphasizes that their focus is on making business app creation accessible and production-ready for roles like operations, sales, and marketing, not just for hobbyists or technical users.
  • “We have now crossed 1 million builders on Softr that are building business apps. And these are the builders that are totally non technical. They don't know how to code and they are really solving problems for their business.” [03:21]

2. The Synergy of No-Code and AI

• The integration of generative AI is accelerating Softr's mission, making app-building even smarter and more personalized.
• Mariam argues that while AI isn't changing the way we code per se, its combination with no-code platforms is transformative:
  • “AI isn't changing how we build software, it's not teaching us how to code. But the next wave really is the combination of AI and no code...they'll make building software right and fast at the same time.” [02:36]
• No-code provides crucial guardrails and constraints, ensuring reliability and accessibility, while AI brings flexibility, intelligence, and faster solutions to specific, complex problems.

3. Differentiation from "Vibe Coding" Platforms

• The episode touches on the rise—and limitations—of "vibe coding" tools (quick, easy app builders).
• Mariam critiques these platforms for being great for prototyping but ultimately messy for maintenance and scaling, especially for non-technical users.
  • “Wipe coded apps right now are really becoming a mess after a certain point and it's really difficult to continue building, maintaining for non technical users. Our users are really non technical builders...” [04:41]
• Softr’s edge lies in catering directly to business-critical, operational use cases, abstracting complexity while letting users retain meaningful control.

4. Go-To-Market (GTM) & Growth Strategy

• Nearly all of Softr's growth is organic, driven by:
  • Word of mouth and referrals
  • SEO, especially content targeting specific problems or industries
  • A library of customizable templates addressing niche business needs
  • “We have grown mostly organically through word of mouth, community and SEO and also really without sales team.” [03:21]

5. Founder Perspective, Thought Leadership & Brand Building

• Mariam admits she has focused inward on product and design to date but recognizes thought leadership as today’s most authentic marketing path.
  • “I would love to do more. I haven't really spent much time on that...I do believe we do have so many learnings that could be useful for many other founders.” [07:13]

6. Tools & Day-to-Day AI Usage

• ChatGPT is a key tool in Mariam’s daily workflow. Softr also leverages its own in-house AI tools and is rolling out workflow automation features for bookings, calendar management, and more.
  • “We actually just ourselves now are launching our own workflow tool. We have our own database with AI agents...” [08:03]

7. The Future of No-Code, AI, and App Building

• Mariam envisions the evolution from “full stack application building” to “AI powered application building,” with AI copilots guiding users more efficiently to results.
  • “Our product is evolving and has become an AI powered no code platform...we’re definitely looking at all the ways how we can incorporate [AI] into the platform to be the best platform for building apps, the easiest and the fastest way.” [08:55]
• The importance of constraints (from no-code) and intelligence (from AI) remains central.

8. Market Challenges: Distribution, Competition, and the AI Bubble

• The biggest concern for Softr is distribution in an increasingly crowded market, not technology alone:
  • “Today, the distribution has become harder than ever. Absolutely. Every day there is a new AI company coming out...distribution is where you really can win.” [10:09]
• Mariam is aware of a potential “AI bubble” but asserts that companies solving real, fundamental problems and effectively harnessing AI will survive:
  • “Companies that really work on fundamental problems and solve the hard problems, and then really are able to power all of that with the AI intelligence, personalization. They are the ones that will win in the future. And that's what we are building at Softr.” [11:06]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On AI + No-code:
  “AI isn't changing how we build software, it's not teaching us how to code. But the next wave really is the combination of AI and no code...they'll make building software right and fast at the same time.”
  — Mariam Hakobyan [02:36]

• On customer acquisition:
  “We have grown mostly organically through word of mouth, community and SEO and also really without sales team.”
  — Mariam Hakobyan [03:21]

• On the limitations of current low-code tools:
  “Wipe coded apps right now are really becoming a mess after a certain point and it's really difficult to continue building, maintaining for non technical users. Our users are really non technical builders...”
  — Mariam Hakobyan [04:41]

• On what keeps her up at night:
  “Today, the distribution has become harder than ever...distribution is where you really can win.”
  — Mariam Hakobyan [10:09]

• On the AI hype era:
  “Companies that really work on fundamental problems and solve the hard problems, and then really are able to power all of that with the AI intelligence, personalization. They are the ones that will win in the future. And that’s what we are building at Softr.”
  — Mariam Hakobyan [11:06]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------|:-------------:| | Softr’s mission & product | 01:28–02:25 | | AI + No-code synergy | 02:36–03:07 | | Go-to-market & growth | 03:21–04:08 | | Vibe code vs No-code debate | 04:41–06:15 | | Acquisition channels | 06:15–07:07 | | Founder brand/marketing | 07:13–07:56 | | AI tools for productivity | 08:03–08:30 | | The future of app building | 08:55–10:04 | | Distribution & competition | 10:09–10:59 | | Reflections on the AI bubble | 11:06–11:47 |

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Conclusion

This episode offers a candid, practical look at building and scaling a SaaS company in the competitive, AI-accelerated no-code space. Mariam Hakobyan shares actionable insights on product philosophy, genuine differentiation, and the tough realities of distribution and staying ahead in a hype-driven market. Her conviction that real, fundamental problems matter—more than any fleeting trend in AI—serves as both a guide and a challenge for founders everywhere.

Transcript

[A]

The companies that really work on fundamental problems and solve the problems, the hard problems, and then really are able to power all of that with the AI, intelligence, personalization. They are the ones that will win in the future. And that's what we are building at software.

[B]

Welcome to the SaaS Revolution Show, a podcast by SaaSdoc. Here we interview SaaS founders from around the world who've been there and done that. They share the ins and outs of how they built their businesses, their operations, their path to securing investment and more. Our mission with the podcast is to help you, the founder, learn how to scale your SaaS, maintain your wellbeing and navigate the complexities of this ever changing industry. I'm your host, Alex Diemer and together we'll explore the good, the bad and the ugly in the journey to SaaS success. All right, welcome to the SaaS Revolution Show. I'm Alex Diemer. We're [e-mail] 2025, joined by Mariam Hakovian, who's the CEO of softer. How are you doing, Mariam? Welcome to Dublin.

[A]

Hey Alex, great to be here. Thanks so much for being with first.

[B]

Time in Dublin, first time at sastock. Initial impressions, I know you haven't had too much time to see Dublin, but. Yeah, initial impressions of being here.

[A]

Yeah, not much impressions of Dublin yet, but really great conference so far. Have been seeing really interesting companies, interesting talks and I hope the day is going to be really full of energy and full of interesting talks.

[B]

Can you tell us a little bit more about software, what you do, what you're building?

[A]

Yeah. So Softer is a no code platform especially targeted for businesses to build business apps, especially internal tooling and portals. So it lets users and customers create internal tools from inventory management, customer portals, intranet, employee portals, to some external facing apps as well.

[B]

And how are things going in business? Good. Riding the AI wave?

[A]

Absolutely. I think it's just the next level of the next stage of extraction and is accelerating our mission even further.

[B]

And you spoke earlier today on the founder track. For those obviously that not here that are watching the podcast, what do you speak about? What are some of the. A couple of the key takeaways.

[A]

Yeah. I gave a sneak peek behind software's product philosophy and how we build product with opinionated UX and design coupled with generative AI especially.

[B]

And in terms of those like giving that sneak peek, what would the audience have learned from that? What would they take away from that?

[A]

Yeah, so the short takeaway is that AI isn't changing how we build software, it's not teaching us how to call. But the next wave really is the combination of AI and no code. So no code has figured out what are the right guardrails and systems to put in place. And AI is really the magic behind making it more smarter and more powerful and really more personalized to couple together. They'll make the right building software right and fast at the same time.

[B]

What are you seeing? What's working for you to grow the business from a GTM perspective? Like how are you getting out there? How are you acquiring customers? How are you growing the business?

[A]

Yeah. Since the launch of four years ago, we have now crossed 1 million builders on software that are building business apps. And these are the builders that are totally non technical. They don't know how to code and they are really solving problems for their business. And we have grown mostly organically through word of mouth, community and SEO and also really without sales team. So it is through solving really hard problems and the problems that customers today are facing. AI is here, is definitely accelerating, making it simpler to build apps. But the problem that we are solving fundamentally still hasn't changed and customers have been already solving it with no code.

[B]

Platforms we're seeing a lot of like let's say the vibe coding platforms, lovable, you know, extremely fast sort of growth. Some of that growth is slowing somewhat at the moment and there is perhaps a concern around, you know, customer churn. Like it's so easy to go on, you know, start to create your own app. But how sticky are these customers? Right? And from your perspective, from your use case, like what are you seeing? Like how do you, how do you see it? How do you protect against this?

[A]

Yeah. So web coding tools and AI in general has made it really accessible and simple to build simple use cases like prototypes and websites and really basic apps. But what software is really focusing on is business applications. So we're talking specifically around customers and businesses needing to build entire operational tooling or customer facing portals for their business. So that so far is, that's our core strength and that is what no code platforms have figured out. So softr and many other node platforms abstract away the complexities that lie behind the code, behind the code, behind the building of software and then really give users the power to, to create control what they really need to control so that what they really what is really specific to their business. And that's the reason it makes it extremely simple to build production ready apps. The main difference between wipe coded apps and no code apps are wipe coded apps right now are really becoming a mess after A certain point and it's really difficult to continue building, maintaining for non technical user. Our users are really non technical builders. Someone like business owners, operations managers, sales and marketing. They literally build entire operational tooling with software. And because we abstract away a lot of the complexities behind the scenes for them and give them the controls that's really relevant for them for their business use cases. So with that simplicity comes ease of use and then apparently obviously a lot more users are able to build things.

[B]

How are you attracting customers? What acquisition channels? Where are the customers coming from?

[A]

So we have grown mostly organically through word of mouth referrals, people referring each other as well as SEO. So people typically would search about certain problem they have. They want to solve a specific niche problem, you know, building something, some kind of client portal within the real estate industry. Then they would usually find us through different content pieces, through different referrals, and then find us through templates. So we have hundreds of templates that solve specific needs. They are still constructed with the same building blocks that software offers, but they solve different needs and they're more personalized. So people find those templates, use those templates, reverse engineer and understand how the platform works and then they're able to put it together for them or customize it to their needs.

[B]

Do you do much founder led marketing like building your own brand, thought leadership on LinkedIn and things like this?

[A]

I would have the love to do more. I haven't really spent much time on that. I have been very specifically deep around product and building and the design side. Definitely think, I think that's the next kind of stage of marketing. I think today that's really proven way to market your product just because it's one of the most authentic ways to share about your learnings. And I do believe we do have so many learnings that could be useful for many other founders around plg. Building around product, that's really complex. But at the same time how we abstracted away all of those complexities and how we enable easy building for non technical users.

[B]

What about AI tools that you personally use to help you be a better CEO day to day or just to help you be more productive?

[A]

Absolutely. So my day to day tool is definitely chatgpt. We actually just ourselves now are launching our own workflow tool. We have our own database with AI agents, so definitely leveraging those a lot for internal tooling and with workflows. Now I'm just waiting for that to use our own agent builder to be able to automate some more processes around, you know, Day to day bookings and calendar management, all of that.

[B]

Things are moving so fast in this AI era that we're in at the moment. So what is like relevant today may not be relevant necessarily in the next couple of months, but how, how do you look to the future, you know, around that and prepare? Because as the job as a CEO is that you can't just think about today, you know, you have to try and think 612 months out, you know, sometimes a bit longer. So what do you do in this respect?

[A]

So I think no code really came too close to mass adoption, but it was lacking intelligence. And I think now with the age of AI, AI really is the engine that makes it smarter and really more powerful, powerful to do more personal building and more intelligent building within the platforms. And that's kind of core part of our product. So our product is evolving and has become an AI powered no code platform. The no code piece is still really, really important. It has to be there for the constraints, for the guardrails that it has to put in place. But what basically we're evolving into the platform is evolving from full stack application building to AI powered application building, where the end goal still is for the customer to get the customer to the final result the fastest and easiest way. Whether that's by helping with AI copilot, help them through the build or them configuring certain things because it's actually much better and secure and faster. That's kind of the result. But we are definitely looking at all of the ways how we can incorporate into the platform to be the best platform for building apps, the easiest and.

[B]

The fastest way, what, if anything, keeps you up at night.

[A]

So I think today the distribution has become harder than ever. Absolutely. Every day there is a new AI company coming out for building apps or for building everything else. I think slowly people are realizing that vibe coding is great to start, but it's not a means to an end. And lots of people with frustration are basically giving up. And I think we have to like, distribution is where you really can win. I think in today's age, being fast, executing fast is also something we're proud of, that we have been doing really well. But I think the distribution in today's age and just making sure we're well positioned in the market to be at the forefront of the innovation with the AI powered platform is, is really the hardest.

[B]

Any concerns about like AI bubble sort of bursting and like, you know, being prepared for that?

[A]

Yeah, I think it is real and it's, it's here to stay however, it not in its current form. It's definitely the early days and we're, we are definitely going to see many companies, you know, figuring out that it was many companies are literally layers on top of existing other providers. So there's definitely going to be a shift, companies getting acquired, you know, closing down, etc. But I think the companies that really work on fundamental problems and solve the problems, the hard problems, and then really are able to power all of that with the AI intelligence, personalization. They are the ones that will win in the, in the future. And that's, that's what we are building at softer.

[B]

Awesome. All right, well, thanks for being a guest on the SaaS Revolution show today, being in Dublin for SASDOC host. Hopefully it's not the last time and we'll see you again. Thank you so much.

[A]

Thanks for the invite. Alex. Great to be here.

[B]

Thanks for listening to the SAS Revolution Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and follow the show. It helps more SaaS and AI founders to discover the podcast and keeps us bringing you the leaders who are shaping the future of the industry. For more insights and to join the SASTOC community, head to sastoc.com bomb.