← The Sabrina Zohar Show
The Sabrina Zohar Show
152: What Is Disorganized Attachment and How It Shows Up in Dating and Relationships
00:37:11
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- [00:01]
Oregon Home Care Jobs Announcer
You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.
- [00:31]
Sabrina Zohar
Hello. Hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, my babies. Part three of the attachment theories. So we are going to talk today about the disorganized. Some people say the fearful avoidant. Some people call it disorganized. Whatever the you want to call it. We're going to talk about that today. The push, pull dynamic. Come on strong, leave quickly. The hot, the cold. I got you babies. I am here for you and I'm so excited. As always, guys, if you need anything, everything on the link in show notes, you want to join a course, you want to work one on one, whatever you guys need is all there. And guys, please don't forget rate review the show. Please use kindness with the language if you're going to leave any comments. I read everything. We just asked to build a healthy and secure like community and not be spewing hate. So that's my only request. But guys, I'm just so grateful for you. Thank you to everyone who's rated. Thank you for sharing the show and thank you for being here with us. It means the world. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Welcome back friends. I'm excited. I love this series. I mean as we know, you had the avoidant. Yeah, the anxious. Now we're going to talk disorganized and then next week will be into the secure partnership and we are going to round this out. And guys, feel free to comment in the comments if you want a different series. If you want me to go more into something, if you had something that you're like g my questions just weren't answered. I would love more. We are here to help and let's just do some quick housekeeping. If you haven't already, please turn auto downloads on. They are us really hard right now and things are changing with all the algorithms and the platforms and so please, please, please. That's all I ask. Subscribe, follow along, leave a comment, engage in some capacity is literally all I ask. You don't have to pay for, you don't want ad free. You don't have for it. But if you do great, it's an option. You want to join a court, whatever it is, you have the options. But please, please, please. That's all I ask of you, if you haven't already. Okay, so let's get into it. And I have dated my fair share of disorganized, fearful, whatever, attachment. And it is a loop de loo. So we are going to talk about it all. But if you've ever thought I want love more than anything, but the second someone gets close to you, oh God, I want to run, then this episode is going to be for you. Or if you've dated somebody who texts you I love you at 2am then doesn't respond for three to five business days, then shows up at your door with flowers, but then that, then you need to hear this because that is a classic sign of disorganized. And if you've ever looked at your dating history and thought, why do I keep choosing people who can't love me the way I want to be loved? Which is like very real and very serious. We're about to get you some answers. And I think the reality is what I'm seeing in your questions isn't just anxious attachment. And like, I think a lot of us want to think that. And it's not just avoidant attachment. There is a lot of disorganized that's happening. And it's, truth be told, the most misunderstood of the attachment styles, the most painful and the most hopeful pattern we're going to talk about. I have quite a few friends that are disorganized and it's like its own kind of hell. But the reason I say hopeful is because once you understand fully what's actually happening in your nervous system and within your body, then everything actually does start to make sense. And when things start to make sense, you can finally start to heal them. And then you start to feel safe. And. And it's the same as, like when I talk about people and say we do this out of safety, we do this to find safety. And people will be like, that's. That's a crock of. And it's like, no, no, no, no, you're right. It's not an excuse. None of this is an excuse for bad behavior. And as an excuse to be like, oh yeah, just act however you want, but it is an explanation, right? You guys asking all the time, why? Why do they do this? Why do they do this? And the reason I always kind of clap back and go, does the why matter? Is because you guys are asking that to avoid dealing with the uncomfortable Pain and what's coming up for you. And that's okay, right? You're human. We all do it. But that's really the reason why. The why doesn't actually matter because when I do give you the why of like, what's actually happening, then I get met with a like. But then why do they do this? And it's more so. Okay, let me paint you a picture. Imagine you're a child, and the person who's supposed to keep you safe, your caregiver, that person, your parent, is also the person that hurts you. Or maybe they don't hurt you directly, but they're incredibly unpredictable. One minute they're super loving, the next, they're raging. You then present one day, then completely checked out the next. That right there is how your brain is going to try to figure this out. And it's. They're going to be trying to figure out, is this person safe or are they dangerous? Should I run from them or run to them? And the answer is kind of both at the same time, which is where we get this amalgamation. And this is happening how? Disorganized attachment forms. Disorganized attachment forms. When your nervous system gets wired with this impossible equation of I need love to survive, but love also feels really dangerous. And that's where we go and we vacillate between the two. And you guys know, of course, I'm gonna hit you with the neuroscience and the psychology of it. And again, this isn't just because some people are just mean or some people are. Or some people are wasting your time. I think when we actually understand, like, the neuroscience and the psychology behind it, it's not that it makes you feel any better, but it actually then allows you to release this story and the narrative that you created, that it must be something that has to be wrong with you when you're like, oh, oh, got it. It's because of this. So the neuroscience behind this is that your amygdala, you guys have heard me talk about that your amygdala is kind of in the back of your brain, and that is your brain's alarm system. And it's super hyperactive. So that part of your brain is constantly scanning for threats, even when you're in a safe environment. Which is why I say, like, you could be doing all of this amazing work, and then you get into somebody secure in a healthy partnership, it's still going to trigger you. That doesn't mean that you're not at all ever going to feel a trigger. And I'm so excited we have Dr. Chris coming on, and he's a neuroscientist and I watching his stuff and we were talking and he was explaining that, you know, I probably have said this on the last episode. I'm just. I find this so interesting that for your brain, it goes to the amygdala 10 to 12 times faster than it does to your prefrontal cortex or to any of the logical places, because it's just a quicker synapse. It can get there because we have to remember what is your brain's primary function. And no, this is not pop psychology and neuroscience. This is actual facts. Google this right now if you want. For the people that like to comment and say that that's not real. Your brain stops developing by 20. That's when it stops developing. By the science of it doesn't mean you cannot rewire moving forward. But you're not developing your brain beyond 28. It is developed to the most it's going to be. And the thing with your brain and the way that it develops is that once you're fully cooked, you now have to just rewire or teach yourself new ways. It doesn't mean you can't. That's neuroplasticity. But your brain, the hunk of all the stuff that's happening in your head, that part of your body, right? The part of your brain that's not responsible for keeping anything besides keeping you safe. That's why we say your brain is not designed to help you grow, designed to keep you safe. Your brain isn't like, oh, she has credit cards now. Oh, yeah, she's good. She can handle this. No, your brain's like, hey, this doesn't feel safe. Threat go right to the amygdala. And that's why it can go 10 to 12 times faster. That's why overthinking and ruminating and spiraling happen quicker than maybe us going into the prefrontal cortex. So let's say you're. Now you're in the amygdala, meanwhile, your prefrontal cortex. And that's the part of your brain that's supposed to help you think clearly and regulate your emotion goes offline when you're triggered. As we've talked about, how we'll go into that fear center. But here's what's really happening. Your nervous system, at some point, learn to associate intimacy with danger. So the closer someone gets, the more your body starts to scream like, holy, this is a threat. Even though your heart might be screaming like, please don't leave me because it's really tough when your body and your brain are not connecting the same. And you learn that out of survival. But this is not your fault. This is not a character flaw. This is called an adaptation. This is how we actually survive. We're wired to survive. Which is why I say, like, I think back on some of the guys I dated that were super disorganized. I don't think they're bad people. And that's why I'm like, we don't need to villainize people to make them the worst people knowledge and say they have their own. And this didn't work for me. Your nervous system did exactly what it was supposed to do. And what was that? It kept you alive. It kept you alive in an environment where love was dangerous, where it was unpredictable. The problem is it's still running that show and it's still running that same programming even though you're no longer in danger anymore. Which is why we do the parts work and we get curious. And here's what makes it even more confusing. Unlike anxious attachment, or somebody with anxious attachment fears abandonment, or the avoidant attachment where you fear kind of being engulfed with that disorganized attachment, you fear both. So you're caught in this kind of like impossible loop of come here, go away, but please don't actually leave me, but oh my God, no, I can't handle this. And so the reason I kind of bring this up as well is because I hear this all the time. We're going to get to this in the myths part of it of like I'm. I sometimes am anxious and sometimes I'm avoid it. That's not what this is. That is not what this is. I have a really good friend and she is like that pretty classic disorganized. And I see it like she's the push, pull. One minute she's like super into the guy, and then the next she's like, I don't know. I don't know if I could do this. Maybe I should just opt out. Out. And that's okay. She's still dating him, right? She's still doing the work. And it reminds me of the guy I've told you guys about, the Utah guy that like one minute, literally the minute I got there, he was super cute and affectionate, and then 20 minutes later was acting different. When we were in front of people, he would. In front of the people, he wouldn't even touch me. He would act cold the second I turned the corner, literally turn the corner to be away from the Dinner table where like you go pick up the food. All of a sudden he's grabbing me, he's making out with me, he's touching my butt. It was so hot and cold. Because he wanted the love. He would come closer to me. And then the second he'd realize like, oh, she's reciprocating. No, I can't do this. This isn't safe. I' get hurt. And it's like, okay, right? And that's okay. That was his journey. That didn't work for me. That didn't mean I needed to keep dating this person. That just meant that at that time, that's where he was at. That's okay, right? I want to say he's now dating somebody that's like 15 years younger than him. And it's like, good luck, Godspeed. But it's okay to acknowledge like we've had that where at night, you know, one night you're like, oh my God, I feel so connected to this person. They're amazing. And then you wake up and you're like, are you okay? Like, what happened to this? Which is why I used to say my non negotiable was the person I go to bed to is also the person I want to wake up to because I personally with my dad and like, I remember when Thais Gibson we have another episode if you guys want with Tyeese on disorganized attachment from last year. And we were talking and she looks at me, she goes, are you sure you're not more disorganized and anxious? And I was like, nah, I don't get scared. I was like, I don't push love away. I don't find that. I was like, I am anxious until I get it. I was like. And then at that point it's more about realizing like, oh, we're not compatible more than it is being like, I'm engulfed and I need to go. I was like, I don't feel that. But I was like. But with my father being as abusive as he was, I could see how you could misconstrue that. We see that especially in prevalent in homes of like, if you're a parent, was a alcoholic or had substance abuse, oftentimes will see that you want the love. Remember, the person you're going to for love is the person that you think is safety. And then they hurt you and you're like, I'm confused.
- [10:32]
Oregon Home Care Jobs Announcer
You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.
- [11:01]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway Cough and cold season is coming, so make sure you're prepared and stock up on your family's favorite personal wellness products. Now through October 7th. Shop in store and online for savings on products like Mucinex Kickstart Combo, Zyrtec Allergy Relief Tablets or Liquid Gels, Halls Cough Drops and Mucinex fast day and night so you and your family are armed and ready for the season ahead. Offerings October 7th restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [11:31]
Sabrina Zohar
So let's get real about what this actually looks like. When you're trying to date and build relationships, it's going to be a little bit different than maybe the person that you're just a friendship with. So the first thing we have is that push, pull dynamic, which is what I was just talking about. You meet somebody amazing. The chemistry is intense, maybe sometimes even too intense. You dive in headfirst. You're texting constantly. You're sharing your fears. You're planning your future together. You're doing all this after three dates, and which is also why I say go slow. Then something shifts. Maybe they do something small, right? Like they take a little longer to text back. They mention an ex. They seem tired after work and suddenly your entire system flips. Now they feel dangerous. Now you need the distance. Do you see what I mean? Right? So the difference between when you're dating somebody and you have that anxious attachment, you're like, I'll do anything to get closeness. I'll do anything to get closer. Please, please come back to me. Don't leave me. Or the avoidant when they're like, nope, overwhelming. Gotta go. Do you notice? Look at the difference between that Disorganized. They really want it. They start to get the anxiety. And then when they start to realize that there's even something, all of a sudden they're like, oh my God, no, I can't do this. Oh my God, no. So then you start the push. You pick fights. Maybe you'll become super critical. Maybe you'll draw emotionally. Some of these people might even cheat. Or they'll quote, unquote, sabotage the relationship. They try to protect it in some dramatic way. And it's not because they don't love you or because they don't care or whatever. But it's because loving them feels like it might kill you. You. It literally feels like you're going to die. Like, in their body, they feel like if they try to care for you or love you, well, then they're. That's it. And because as a kid, that was a very real reality to this person. And again, right now we're going through the why. You guys ask all the time, why do they do this? I'm explaining it, so don't come at me and start getting snappy with me. I'm not saying everybody will, but whoever wants to. Of like, well, but no, I'm explaining this so you understand the why. Then we'll get into the rest. I just have to preface, because I already know know. So then we have something called the chemistry confusion. So here's something that, like, nobody really talks about. If you have disorganized attachment, stable love is probably going to feel boring. But drama might feel like passion, chaos might feel like chemistry. And that's why, right? We want that. Because your nervous system is used to chaos. Calm will feel foreign. It feels suspicious, sometimes even threatening, because your brain literally thinks, no, this is too good to be true. When is the other shoe going to drop? Which side note that saying, when is the other shoe going to drop? I actually found out where it came from back in the day in New York, Specifically in New York, like, when, you know, we're talking like 1800s, when they lived in those high rises where there's like a million people that lived in one. They would wait for. Literally, you would hear the other shoe drop in an apartment upstairs, and that's when you knew people were asleep or something. So people would wait for the other shoe to drop in these apartment complexes. Random side note that I've learned. And I was like, oh, that's where it is. So they'd wait for the other shoe to drop, and I think that's when they could go to bed anyways. So you might also find yourself attracted to people who are unavailable, unpredictable, or honestly, who mirror your own internal chaos. And not because you're broken. Nobody's broken. There's nothing to fix. It's not because you have bad taste. It's because familiar feels safer than the unknown. Remember, your brain is trying to keep you safe, so it's going to keep you safe in the ways that it knows. Then we go through something called the testing phase, where you'll test people constantly. You'll push them away to see if they'll fight for you. You'll create drama to see if they'll stay, you'll share your trauma early on to see if they're going to run. And I see this all the time. And then when they do run, because let's be honest, most people are going to in that early time, you'll use that as evidence to say be like, see, See, see, love isn't safe. See, I knew they'd leave. I knew I couldn't trust them. It's a self fulfilling prophecy and I see it all the time, especially with that trauma dumping early on. Or like even today I was in live and someone said, the girl I'm dating constantly pushes me away to test and see if I'm going to come back. Is that healthy? And I was like, that's not the word I would use. I would not say that's healthy. If somebody is constantly pushing you away to see if you're going to come back. If you they're testing you, that's a wild insecurity that they need to work through. And by mean wild, I mean like a big one. It's not like it's anything crazy. And then there's something called the emotional whiplash. Like one day you're anxiously attack attached, you're calling, you're texting, you're needing that constant reassurance. And then the next day you're avoidant. You're kind of pulling away, you're going silent, you're feeling suffocated by their attention. This is what I mean when some people say sometimes I'm anxious and sometimes I'm avoidant. No, this manifests with the same person you're dating. Where that's what I mean by the push pull dynamic. Your partner literally feels like they're dating two different people. And honestly it's because they kind of are. And that was when I was dating that guy. I literally felt like I was like, am I taking crazy pills? I was like, can I not read people? And there's a part of you that like desperately wants the love and then a part of you that's terrified by it. And that's where that amalgamation kind of happens. And then we have something called the self fulfilling prophecy, which we all know what that means, right? You say you want something, healthy love, but then you unconsciously choose people who don't give it to you. Why? Because let's be honest, healthy love would require a lot. It would require vulnerability in a way that your nervous system probably just isn't ready for it. It would require you to show up differently. So what ends up happening, you end up with the emotionally unavailable person that's going to mirror what you're going through. The commitment phobe, the person who's just, no, I'm not ready for a relationship, babe. And then they blame you. And. And when it doesn't work out because you're like, see, I knew it. And there's something wrong. And it's like, no, no, y', all, if any of this is heading home, take a fucking breath. You're not alone. You're not alone in this. And I want you to really, really know that. There. Like again, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It just means that maybe somewhere along the line, someone taught you that love wasn't safe to receive and that love had to be earned. And love was scary. And that's okay. So if you're dating somebody with disorganized attachment, have some compassion and grace for what they're going through as well. Well, so I want to clear up some fucking major misconceptions about disorganized attachment, because let's be real, the Internet has gotten a lot of this wrong, just like it did with avoidant and anxious. So the first myth is disorganized is just anxious and avoidant. No, it's not just a blend or a combination. It's a completely different adaptation rooted in trauma. That's my point. Anxious people fear abandonment. Avoidant people fear engulfment and losing their independence. Disorganized people fear both intimacy and isolation, often simultaneously. Which is why I'm saying it's not just like, with one person, I'm this, and with the other I'm that. It's like, no, your nervous system, if you're constantly in the anxious. And I hear this every day, I'm really anxious. I'm really anxious. I'm. I dated so many people that now I turn to void, and it's like, no, Your nervous system just shut down. Unless when you meet somebody, you want them, and then when they give you love, you're running away and you're. That's what I mean by the push pull dynamic. Not just with some people, I'm like this. With some people, I'm like that. That's not disorganized. So the second myth. If you're inconsistent in relationships, you must be disorganized. I mean, the truth is, like, everyone can be inconsistent. Having a bad day or having some mixed feelings doesn't automatically make you disorganized. But disorganized attachment often is characterized by trauma induced emotional dysregulation. That creates specific patterns of fear around intimacy. So it's not just like a random thing that comes up. It's specifically around those patterns. The third myth, People with disorganized attachment are toxic or manipulative. This one actually kind of gets my goat. This one does, because people with disorganized attachment, they're not trying to consciously hurt anybody. They're trying to survive the overwhelming feelings that intimacy brings up for them. And the same with any of the attachment cells. Their behavior might be harmful, but the intention is not malicious. And it actually was surprising to me when I made that reel that said the difference between avoidant and narcissist, the amount of people that were like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They both hurt me. And it's like, of course it matters. Intent absolutely matters. Because if your intention is to hurt me, you're probably not somebody I'm ever going to talk to again. But if this was a surviv mechanism, and then you come off and you're like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Of course intention matters. Here's another myth, and I saw it because somebody had asked a question that you have to, like, graduate through other attachment styles in order to become secure. That is absolutely not how this goes. Someone literally asked. She said, well, can I go from disorganized to secure without having to go through anxious and avoidant? And I was like, you don't like graduate? Healing isn't linear. And attachment styles, they're not a ladder. You don't have to become anxious, then avoidant, then secure. Like, that's just not how that works. You can build secure behaviors from wherever you are starting. This is about how am I lear to show up differently. It's not about I have to go through all of them. And the last thing that disorganized can't be healed. Yes, it can. This is the most dangerous myth because, yes, it takes works, yes, it takes time. But your nervous system is neuroplastic, just like your brain. It can learn new patterns of safety and connection. It's just dependent on the tools that you're using. It's the same as when I said when I found out I was adhd. It didn't mean anything. Besides, I just need different tools. That's all. I just got to learn different ways of doing things. But that's it. And then one other myth, that childhood trauma automatically creates disorganized attacks. Attachment, I would say it's not 100. While most disorganized attachment, most attachment styles usually do stem from those early experience. It's also about how your nervous system was adapting to those experiences. Right? So some people experience trauma and then they develop different coping strategies. Like for us, me, my sister and brother all had very similar traumas. We all have different coping mechanisms. So one of us leans more avoidant, one of us leans more disorganized, and one of us leans more anxious. So please know that, like, there's no one blueprint for everybody.
- [20:13]
Oregon Home Care Jobs Announcer
You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit OregonHomeCareJobs.com to learn more and apply. That's Oregon Home Care Jobs.com.
- [20:41]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway Cough and cold season is coming, so make sure you're prepared and stock up on your family's favorite personal wellness products. Now through October 7th. Shop in store and online for savings on products like Mucinex Kickstart Combo, Zyrtec Allergy Relief Tablets or Liquid Gels, Halls Cough Drops and Mucinex Fast day and night, so you and your family are armed and ready for the season ahead. Offer ends October 7th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Mary Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [21:11]
Sabrina Zohar
So I want us to even talk about now. Not just if you're dating somebody, this has this. But if you're listening to this or if you send this, if your friend sent this to you, your mom, your dad, your sibling, I don't care. And they're like, hey, I think this might be you. And you're listening to this being like, oh my God, this is me. First, I want you to take a deep breath. Second, I want you to know that awareness really is the first step towards freedom. You cannot actually work through unless you know that what you're working through through. So here's some steps. The first one I need you to learn. Your nervous system. You cannot heal what you can't feel. So I need you to start paying attention to what's happening in your body when you get triggered. Which is usually why when I work with clients, my first question is, I'm like, where do you feel this in your body? Did your chest get tight? Do you feel like you're floating outside of your body? Do you feel like you have a swarm of bees? Do you feel like there's a tension? Does your mind go blank? Do you feel rage or panic? Do your shoulders Start to tense up. How does this manifest in your body? Because these are all information. This is your nervous system is trying to tell you, hey, hey, something's going on. And so I really love to even just stop with it and be like, well, okay, it's in my chest, okay? And this is why, you know, Masha and I have the nervous system course. This is why I've created all the courses I have is because they all guide you through these different steps and processes. Every course that we have hits on the nervous system, hits on core beliefs, and hits on steps to, whether it be meditations or different practices and tools to be able to regulate yourself and come back home to yourself. So the second step. And again, this I talk about in the foundation course all the time. The sacred podcast pause. The sacred pause is going to change your life. Because when you feel the urge to push, to pull the test, to sabotage whatever it is, pause. Even if it's 30 seconds, I want you to ask, is this my wounded part reacting, or is this actually about what's happening right now? Because then we can start to look at, okay, I don't have to act on every single fucking feeling. I can feel the feeling and I get to choose my response. That's why we love regulating your nervous system. So you come back to choice. There are times where I'm like, I can choose violence. I can go pop off on Ryan. I'm like, or I could also look and say, ah, it's not big deal. Pick your battles. And then the third step, I need you to build your window of tolerance, right? This is your emotional sweet spot where you can feel things without being super overwhelmed by them. So we need to start small, right? We don't want to have the peaks and valleys. So starting small might be practicing staying present during a minor discomfort, right? Using grounding techniques. I love 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. The sensory method. Five things I can see, four things I can touch, three things I can hear, two things I can smell, one thing I can taste, or whatever. You know what I mean? Use your senses. You can learn to self soothe without numbing or escaping, which is why again we have the courses that are available or the free guide and link in bio if you want. That is self soothing techniques. Whether again be ice cubes, whether you grab sour candy, whether you do some jumping jacks or you go for a walk, whether you do the shakes, I don't care, whatever it is, what you're doing is you're think about two like children, right? When a child, what happens when A child gets scared, they start to shake. That's their nervous system trying to shake off that energy that they don't know what to do with it. That's actually their body learning beautifully how to self soothe. And then the fourth step, which is again you'll start to notice how do you notice how all of these steps are kind of the same depending on all for the all attachment styles because the work doesn't really change. It's the core beliefs and the wounds that we're working through. And so now you need to reparent your nervous system. What would a secure, loving caregiver say to you right now? Start giving yourself that voice. Would a secure and loving caregiver come and be like, oh wow, you're so stupid for feeling this way. Maybe you can try. Like it makes total sense that you're scared. Like this is so new for me and I don't know what I'm doing. Beautiful, I love that. Or hey, I validate that this is a really real fear. I'm really scared right now and I, that's okay, I'm allowed to be scared. For a lot of us, validating our own emotions and feelings, which is what we teach in the self love course, is really, really scary. If no one ever taught you how to do that because growing up you learned. Oh. Because as children egocentric age, we automatically assume that everything is our fault. That's how we learn the lay of the land. That's why kids, they don't have the, the neural capacity to be like, oh no, it's just my dad's super inconsistent and narcissist. That's why they're doing this. We just look at it as like, oh, it's my fault, I did something wrong. Because what, how else are we supposed to. And then the fifth step, I want you to practice safe connection. Start with some low stakes and some low stake relationships. Friends, family members, therapists. Right? Practice being seen and staying present. So practice asking for what you need. Practice settling boundaries. Like, I remember the biggest thing for me was learning to say thank you when someone gave me a compliment. So instead of being like, thanks, oh I got it on sale, or thanks, no, I didn't get any sleep last night. Just thank you. I remember when I first met Scott, he said something and I said thank you and he looked at me and he goes, you know how hard it is for people to receive a compliment. That was really beautifully done. And I was like, oh, I know internally I'm freaking out. Start low, start with a friend that when they say something and you're like, thanks and just leave it there. Allow yourself to be uncomfortable and be like, whoa, this is really weird. Receiving compliments feels really strange. It's okay. And the last, I want you to embrace the boring love, cuz healthy love, y' all is probably going to feel boring at first. If you want to listen to the Valentine's day episode from 2025, by the time this comes out, go listen about like healthy equals boring. Cuz there's no drama, there's no chaos, there's no emotional roller coaster. And it's not because it's wrong, it's because your nervous system is learning what safety actually feels like. And safety doesn't feel like this. And then of course, lastly, like if you need professional support, please do it right. Like please go to therapy, work with a coach. It doesn't have to be me. You work with anybody, I don't give a. Just get help for yourself. Do something right that's like, what? Maybe it's trauma, informed therapy, maybe it's emdr. Maybe it's somatic practices, maybe it's ifs and parts work. Maybe it's whatever it is, right? Support groups, whatever you guys need, you don't have to do this alone. And it is important to be able to stop and say, hey, I think I need help. I think I need somebody to like help me guide and guys, like if you're dating somebody with disorganized attachment, like please have some compassion and grace. I know I'm not saying it's the same with any of the attachment styles. If you're saying like I recognize this in my pack, in my partner, like I see that I'm dating this person, like again, you're not imagining things and I get it. Like it's not. Please know it is not your job to fix people. It is not your job to fix anybody. But what you might maybe be experiencing with depending on the person you're dating is like emotional whiplash from their hot and cold behavior. That's really real. Really real. You might be feeling like you're walking on eggshells. You're confused about, like, wait, do they actually want to be with me? Or what's going on? You're exhausted from this because you're constant push, pull. I get it. And that's why for me, when I was dating the kids guy, I couldn't continue. I personally couldn't. But we have to remember, like they're not trying to hurt you. The closer they feel to you, the more dangerous you become. To their nervous system. It is not personal, it's trauma. And though I'm not excusing the behavior, but what I am saying is understand it that you don't have to take it personally. And how do you navigate it? Set clear boundaries early on. Emotional chaos is not romantic. Inconsistency is not passion. Know what behaviors are deal breakers for you and communicate them clearly. Like I said, you don't have to accept their behavior. You don't have to. You don't. But what I would say is don't take that shit personally. Don't take the push personal. Often the more they like you, the more their system panics, the more they're gonna withdraw. Because it's not about you. It's their capacity for intimacy. And I get that. And the last you know, you can model emotional safety. That's one thing too. You can be consistent with your communication. You don't need to match the chaos with chaos. You can stay regulated even when you're feeling dysregulated or when they're dysregulated rather. But you can focus on regulating when they're dysregulated. But like, don't confuse empathy with over function. You can understand their pain without taking responsibility for healing it. And that's a big thing. You can have compassion without acting harmful and accepting harmful behavior. And then you really got to start to ask the hard questions, which is one thing that a lot of people don't want to do. Are they actually self aware of their patterns? Are they actively working on healing? Are you seeing actual change? Or is it just the same thing? Or is it just promises or just. Just empty words? Because you got to know your limits. You can't love somebody into being secure. You can't be consistent enough to heal their inconsistency. You can't do the work for of you. You can't be the exception to their pattern unless they're doing the work to change the goddamn pattern. And I know, I know it sucks, but we also have to then like, consider our own attachment style. Why am I drawn to this dynamic? What about this feels familiar? What are you getting from this chaos? Sometimes we're attracted to that disorganized attachment because, let's be honest, it feels familiar or because it lets us avoid our own intimacy fears. Like when I was dating the guy, yeah, it helped me avoid having to sit with it and be like, hey, you got to make a fucking change. Because I could push it off to him.
- [28:58]
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- [29:27]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [30:51]
Sabrina Zohar
All right, so let's get into like kind of dive into some audience questions because you guys had some really thoughtful, beautiful ones and I want to make sure that we get them. So someone had asked, can you go from disorganized to secure without taking the steps through the other attachments? And that's what we had talked about earlier. That of course, healing isn't literal. It's not a video game. You're on Mario Kart going to the next level. You start building secure behaviors anytime, regardless of where you're starting from. Because security isn't about developing emotional regulation. That's just like not the only thing. It's about developing the emotional regulation with the clear communication with the ability to be intimate without losing yourself. And we're going to talk about secure next week. And how do they work towards secure. How to disorganize people heal, kind of. Especially after a breakup. Breakups can actually be an opportunity for growth if you use them right instead of jumping into the next relationship. We got to take the time to understand what happened, what pattern showed up, where along the line did your nervous system. System get triggered. Use the breakup as information. It's not evidence that you're unlovable or there's something wrong with you. But how can I grow, evolve and heal from this? And then somebody has to like, which is interesting. Like, does the. Does the trauma have to be parent related or can be elsewhere? I think more often than not it stems from earlier caregivers and relationships. But you know, it could be any significant relational trauma that also creates these patterns, whether that be adult behavior or betrayal, whether that be abusive relationships, gaslighting. These can also trigger that disorganized. But we want to get curious about where did I learn that this from? And someone asked, why do I keep dating them? I never see it until six months in, which is really real. But let's be honest, it's because in the beginning, the disorganized attachment can look like passion. It looks like intensity and this deep connection and the chaos feels kind of like chemistry. Your own nervous system might be looking at that and being like, ooh, familiar. Right. Especially if that's something that you've been dealing with a lot. Even if they're not healthy. And so how do you spot it early on, like, I get it, you can't go through that discard again. What I want you to look for is emotional inconsistency. I want you to look for trauma dumping. Early on, I want you to look for that hot and cold communication. I want you to look for them. Are they testing behaviors, they difficulty regulating emotions. And kind of how did their past relationships end? Did they end dramatically? Because baby, trust your gut. If something feels off. And is this the same as the anxious and avoidant? No, they're different. Anxious Avoidant typically refers to someone who kind of leans anxious but has some avoidant tendencies. Right. Like maybe when they get overwhelmed, they might shut down. Like for me, that's actually really me. I am that classic anxious. But sometimes when I get too overwhelmed, I'll just shut down. I just go inwards and I can't handle it. Whereas disorganized attacks attachment that is rooted in trauma that involves a fundamental fear of both intimacy and abandonment. And for a lot of us, like, for a lot of anxious folk, we're not scared of intimacy. Right? Like, that's also kind of the reality. And I think, you know, someone has. How much does this have to do with your partner? Your partner's behavior can absolutely trigger your patterns of disorganized attachment, but it's not because of your partner. It's about your internal nervous system's system's response. Right? You can have these patterns with anybody, regardless of how they treat you, though, obviously, if you're with somebody who is secure and consistent, that's going to help. Right? But at the end of the day, you could have this with anybody. You could have this with anybody. And is this a reason to ghost after dating for a while and then all of a sudden they're gone? It's like, this could be a reason 100%. Ghosting can be something that disorganized attachment do as a response because they get really overwhelmed when intimacy feels too threatening. Disappearing to them feels like the only way for them to feel safe again. It's not. Okay. It's not. But I understand from a nervous system perspective why they're doing it, But I'm not going to condone the behavior. And do they feel shame? Like, do they keep stuck in it? It's like, oh, they have a fuck ton of shame. The shame often is what keeps them stuck because they feel broken or they feel like they're too much. It's the same with the avoidant. Part of healing is learning that their response makes sense. It makes sense. Given their emotional history, it makes sense, but that doesn't mean that it's okay, Right? That's the reality. Just because it makes sense doesn't mean that I condone the behavior. And I want to make sure that I'm being very clear about that. And here's really what I want you to understand as far as a path forward. Disorganized attachment is not a fucking life sentence. It's the same with any of these attachment. It's not a fucking character flaw. It is not evidence that you're broken or you are on unlovable. It's not. None of these attachment styles are. Do you want to know what attachment styles are? They're information about how your nervous system learned to survive. That's it. And what you once used to be adaptive can now be updated because it's maladaptive. And if you have disorganized attachment and you're like, this is me. Your journey to security might look different than someone with anxious or avoidant. It might not be the exact same. You're not just learning to trust others. That's not the only thing that you're doing. You're learning to trust your own nervous system as well. And that's a beautiful place to be. So start with some self compassion. Compassion. Start with something. The part of you that pushes love away is the same part that one kept. You feel safe. So thank it for protecting you. And then maybe we can gently let it know, like that's part of the parts work. You're safe now. And again, if you're dating somebody who has disorganized attachment, you can't fix them. You can't. But you can be a secure presence in their life. You can be the consistent patient and have clear boundaries. Those are healing. But you can't do it for them. And I want you to remember when one thing, you're not responsible for their healing journey. You can support it, but you can't do it for them. That is not your job. Which is why I broke up with people where I was just like, this ain't working. Because healing is going to happen in any relationship. We hurt in relationships, we're going to heal in relationships. That's just how life goes. Whether it's a romantic partner, whether it's friends, whether it's family, a therapist, I don't care. Safe connection is a beautiful medicine to attachment wounds. And it's time for us to start doing that. And the hardest truth here is that security, it's going to feel probably really boring at first because there is no drama, there's no chaos. But boring isn't the opposite of love. It's the foundation of a sustainable and healthy relationship. Because remember, real intimacy, it's not about losing yourself to love somebody. It's about being fully present with yourself and someone else so that you can let them love you fully and you can love them fully while being yourselves fully. So no, your attachment style is not your identity. It is just information for you. And if you guys need more help, great, we got you. Join one of the courses. Come on. If you want to work with me, and if not, that's cool too, that's fine. Start with one conversation at a time, one relationship at a time. One moment of staying present instead of running away at a time. That is how you're going to change your life. Rome wasn't built in a day and you're not trying to boil the ocean all at once. And so guys, if this episode hit hard, please be gentle with yourself today because sometimes the awareness hurts before it heals. And I don't want you to think that there's anything wrong with you. It's not. And again, if you're in a relationship with somebody who has this attachment style, I want you to remember, remember this, that love isn't enough. It's not. But love combined with awareness, love combined with boundaries, love combined with commitment to growth, that can move mountains. But love is just not enough. So, guys, as always, next week we're going to dive into secure attachment. What it actually looks like, how to embody it, how to create it. And no matter whether you're starting from, I don't care where you're at, we got you. And until then, I want you to remember this. You're not too much, you're not too little. You are learning. And that's beautiful enough. So, guys, again, if you need anything, please don't forget rate, review the show, leave a comment anywhere you're listening to it, share it with your friend. It just means the world. I'm so grateful for you guys. If you need anything, we have the courses. You can work one on one. Whatever you guys need, I am here for you and I will see you next week. Until next time, babies.
- [37:58]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [38:29]
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