155: Why Won’t They Let You In? REAL Avoidant Attachment Truths | In the Trenches

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Sabrina Zohar Show

Episode 155: Why Won’t They Let You In? REAL Avoidant Attachment Truths | In the Trenches
Date: August 12, 2025
Host: Sabrina Zohar
Guest: Tom Stroud (Love is Blind UK, “Why Do Men” podcast, men’s group leader)

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Main Theme

This episode dives deep into the realities of avoidant attachment, dating dynamics, and communication struggles in modern relationships—especially the intersection of avoidance, dating myths, and how both men and women contribute to misunderstanding and frustration. Joined by Tom Stroud, Sabrina hosts a candid, compassionate Q&A with real listener questions, blending practical advice, vulnerability, and myth-busting insights for anyone seeking healthier relationships.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Tom Stroud’s Journey and Attachment Style (02:30)

• Background: Tom discusses his 25+ years of dating, realization of his own avoidant attachment style, and how childhood abandonment played a role.
• Unique Perspective: As someone who became self-aware later in life (with help from a long-term partner), Tom shares how his avoidance showed up in relationships—particularly holding back, shutting down around intimacy or conflict, and ultimately breaking off relationships to escape discomfort.
• Cultural Reflection: Tom highlights how his “Love is Blind UK” experience forced deep introspection on gender roles and masculine identities, driving him to host a podcast and men’s group focused on these issues.

Notable Quote:

“My avoidance came from a lot of abandonment as a kid...I just couldn’t deal with this pressure that I created for myself in my head.” — Tom [06:10]

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2. Shifting Gender Dynamics & Dating Expectations (04:15)

• Polarization: Both hosts observe increasing confusion and polarization between genders—particularly in heterosexual dating. Men feel unsure about their roles (“Am I meant to approach?”) and retreat, while women express exhaustion searching for emotionally available men.
• Communication Breakdown: Both underline that miscommunication and misunderstanding persist, regardless of country or culture.

Notable Quote:

“Men are kind of retreating into this hole...Am I meant to be the provider and approach first? For a lot of guys, they’re like, I’m just giving up.” — Tom [04:15]

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3. The Roots and Misunderstanding of Avoidant Attachment (08:30)

• Villainization: Sabrina and Tom push back against the widespread tendency to cast avoidant partners as villains, emphasizing that avoidance is rarely conscious or malicious.
• Self-Responsibility: Both discuss the necessity of seeing your own role in relationship patterns, regardless of attachment style. Sabrina vulnerably shares her own anxious-attached behaviors that may have driven some partners away.
• Narcissism vs. Avoidance: Tom notes the dangers of conflating avoidance with narcissism, describing avoidance as a survival strategy, not pathological selfishness.

Notable Quotes:

“I fucking hate [‘If he wanted to, he would’]. Because it puts like a rule...as if every man is the same and they’re not.” — Tom [08:54]
“Don’t the avoidance know what they’re doing? Absolutely not.” — Tom [11:43]

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4. The Power and Limits of Communication (13:09)

• Radical Candor: Both recommend honest, direct communication—voicing your needs even at the risk of discomfort. An avoidant admitting, “I need a couple of days out of this,” is healthier in the long run.
• Everyday Examples: Sabrina shares a real-life argument with her partner Ryan, reflecting on the importance of addressing issues calmly, openly, and moving forward without letting resentment fester.

Memorable Moment:
Sabrina reenacts a conflict with Ryan about kitchen chores and how they resolved it with humor and honesty rather than resentment.

“It’s not that you’re not allowed to tell me...That’s never the problem. ...but speak to me like an adult and I will accept it like an adult.” — Sabrina [15:10]

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5. Debunking Dating Myths: Texting, Consistency, and “If He Wanted to, He Would” (16:19)

• Texting Misinterpretations: Both are frustrated by the myth that a lack of daily texting equals disinterest. Tom celebrates clear boundary-setting, and Sabrina notes the brain’s craving for intermittent reinforcement.
• Fantasy vs. Reality in Modern Dating: Listener Q&A explores the difference between projecting fantasies onto partners and accepting what people are actually showing up with.

Notable Quote:

“There is nobody busier than someone who’s not interested.” — Sabrina [21:40]

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6. Listener Q&A – In the Trenches (18:09, 30:12, etc.)

First Question: The Non-Committal Long-Distance Guy (18:09)

• Scenario: Listener is “stuck” with a guy who makes little effort, keeps canceling, but she’s holding out hope for “potential.”
• Advice: Both hosts gently point out—reality is clear: he’s not prioritizing you. Don’t mistake fantasy for fact. Write down what’s actually happening.
• Validation: Sabrina names the pattern of projecting childhood hopes onto romantic partners.

Notable Quotes:

“The answer is in the question.” — Tom [19:33]
“There is nobody busier than someone that’s not interested.” — Sabrina [21:40]

Second Question: Is Healthy Boring? Chemistry and ‘Settling’ Dilemmas (32:07)

• Scenario: Listener Kristin is dating a kind, emotionally available man (after a string of toxic relationships), but feels unsure about chemistry and less anxious.
• Advice: Tom and Sabrina differentiate between “not activated” (calm, healthy) vs. genuine boredom and lack of attraction. You shouldn’t have to settle for just “consistent but blah.”
• Takeaway: It’s not becoming “avoidant”—it may be moving toward security. But if there’s no desire, it might simply not be right.

Notable Quotes:

“Healthy equals boring … does not mean you are not attracted.” — Sabrina [34:16]
“You’re not going to have that with everybody. And that’s okay to admit.” — Tom [34:49]

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7. Dating App Profile Audits – Dos and Don’ts (39:14)

• Sabrina and Tom critique listener and Tom’s own dating app profiles, offering practical advice:
  • Don’t make your first photo a group shot or overly generic (e.g., just nature backgrounds).
  • Avoid too many selfies; include clear, varied, flattering photos.
  • Use prompts to show personality or humor, but also reveal something real about yourself.
  • Don’t over-index on quirks—let people know who you are, not just what you do.

Quote:

“You are so much more handsome than [your lead photo]. Lead with a more flattering photo!” — Sabrina [46:46]

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8. Rapid Fire Live Q&A (47:03+)

Can men sense when a woman’s “running out of time” for kids?

• Tom: “100%, yes.” Age and desire for children are clear—sometimes leading men to date younger.
• Sabrina adds: “Proximity and timing matter. Don’t hide—don’t waste anyone’s time.” [47:20]

How to tell if a shy guy is interested?

• Tom: Communication! Ask directly, kindly.
• Sabrina: “Are you shy, or am I misreading this?” Transparency can clarify intent. [49:15]

“Looking for long-term or fun, casual” on dating apps—is that bad?

• Both: Not everyone needs to be “forever;” fleeting connections can be meaningful if honest.
• Tom: “Let’s normalize that stuff.” [50:36]

Meeting in real life—how?

• Tom: Attend intentional, single-friendly events in your city (run clubs, book clubs, etc.), not just bars or apps.
• Sabrina: “Interject yourself into communities you enjoy. Be open-minded.” [53:19]

What does emotional intelligence mean to you?

• Tom: It’s self-awareness—knowing your patterns, triggers, and striving to change unhelpful behaviors.
• Sabrina: Adds “the ability to articulate experience in the moment, to self-regulate, and hold space for others’ emotions.” [54:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My avoidance came from a lot of abandonment as a kid.” — Tom [06:10]
• “I fucking hate ‘If he wanted to, he would.’ ... It puts like a rule...as if every man is the same and they’re not.” — Tom [08:54]
• “Don’t the avoidance know what they’re doing? Absolutely not.” — Tom [11:43]
• “There is nobody busier than someone that’s not interested.” — Sabrina [21:40]
• “If you can get to that point—not internalizing others’ behavior—you are smashing it.” — Tom [26:21]
• “Healthy equals boring … does not mean you are not attracted.” — Sabrina [34:16]
• “Let’s normalize that stuff.” (on honesty about casual and long-term intentions) — Tom [50:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:30] Tom’s dating/attachment journey
• [04:15] Current gender polarization and dating confusion
• [08:54] Dismantling “If he wanted to, he would”
• [11:43] Are avoidants aware of their actions?
• [13:09] Radical candor and communication
• [15:10] Real-life argument and healthy repair
• [16:19] Texting, dating myths, boundaries
• [18:09] First listener Q&A: non-committal long-distance partner
• [32:07] Second listener Q&A: emotionally available but “boring” partner
• [39:14] Dating app profile audits
• [47:03] Audience rapid fire
• [54:22] Emotional intelligence

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Tone & Style

• Candid, compassionate, funny, and direct—Sabrina cuts through dating BS while holding space for self-examination and growth.
• Tom provides a refreshingly honest male perspective, owning past mistakes and centering awareness and change rather than blame.
• Both hosts stress self-responsibility, honest communication, and curiosity as keys to relating—whether you're anxious, avoidant, or somewhere in between.

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Takeaways

• Avoidant attachment is often unconscious, rooted in early life, and not inherently selfish or malicious.
• Clear, direct communication—even when uncomfortable—is vital for breaking negative cycles.
• Don’t settle for fantasy or project narratives onto partners. Identify reality by asking: “What do I actually know to be true?”
• You’re allowed to want both safety and spark in relationships—don’t mistake calm for boredom, but don’t force chemistry.
• Be intentional (and real!) in your dating profiles, and seek out community and shared values both online and offline.

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Where to Find Tom Stroud

• Podcast: “Why Do Men”
• Instagram: @stroudtom
• Hosts men’s group “Shoulder to Shoulder”

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For more:

• Submit questions to the podcast ([e-mail])
• Instagram: @thesabrinazoharshow
• TikTok: @sabrina.zohar

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This summary covers all major segments and key insights from episode 155, providing an accessible, entertaining, and comprehensive recap for both new and returning listeners.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babes. We're in the trenches this week. Let's go. We're answering your questions and guess what? I have Tom Stroud from Love is Blind uk. Don't worry, we don't talk a ton about the show. We talk about you guys. You wrote in, you sent screenshots. If you guys want to in the trenches at Sabrina Zahar.com, but we are here to help. We are going to answer them all and I'm so fucking excited and just crazy grateful for you guys. Thank you to everybody for rating, reviewing, leaving a comment anywhere you listen, Spotify, YouTube, I don't give a. Just leave me a heart. Let me know what you think and if you need anything, I'm here. And guys, big news, big announcement. Now is the time. So at the end of this month and if you're listening beyond this, sorry about you, we'll have new things coming, but at the end of this month, we have the self love, the breakup and the nervous system course are going to be gone for good. Now, what that means is if you get it now on sale, you'll have lifetime access. So it's not like it's ever going to be taken away, but you won't be able to purchase it beyond the end of the month because new things are coming. I have so many things in the works for you guys. A lot of things that are passion projects of mine that I really wanted to launch. And so now is the time. So join the courses if you want them and if not, welcome to the family. Sit down, have a cup of coffee and let's fucking get into it. Without further ado. Hey, Tom.

[B]

Hey, Sabrina.

[A]

I'm so excited to have you.

[B]

Thank you. I'm psyched to be here.

[A]

Welcome from a very long side of the pond. This was a trip over just for me.

[B]

Absolutely. Just for you. Yeah. So we're going to do a week of filming and then I'm going to go home.

[A]

It's perfect. It's all we wanted to do. I'm so excited to have you. We are. Guys, today, as Always. It's in the trenches. And we're going to answer your questions and we're going to go into it and we're going to help you. And the reason I wanted Tom to be here, obviously, because I love you and I wanted you here, but because I think you have a lot of great insight to offer, and I think getting a male perspective that's in a different place in a different country, that we can also see that it's the same shit everywhere, is going to be really helpful. But before we get into that, I want to know, could you share a little bit about you? And I think your journey is really interesting and fun because I think you had something that the average person doesn't necessarily have and the type of mirror that you had. But I'd love to hear from you. How'd you get here?

[B]

Sure. All right, well, look, I mean, I've been dating on and off 25 years, right. I'm 40 this year, and I have an avoidant attachment style. Like, that's something which I came to realize a bit later on in my dating journey, and it was something that had to kind of deal with it. What we'll talk about today is avoidance, right? But then I was lucky enough to get casted for a show called Love is Blind, which I'm sure you guys all know. Love is Blind UK had an amazing time on it. My storyline was pretty polarizing. You know, it was all about, yeah, like, gender roles and this provider mentality versus modern masculinity and all these kinds of big talking points. And, yeah, from that, I ended up sort of interrogating a lot further, creating a podcast as well, because we love podcasting, which is all about male behavior and dating and relationships, which pulls that stuff apart a lot. And, yeah, and I also host a men's group. I have a men's group back home where we sort of talk about this stuff.

[A]

So what have you been seeing? Because I think it's really interesting that you even your storyline, right. Having to be that polarizing. And, like, I do think you got a bad edit, but that's like, for another day in another conversation. But I think your story was also really exemplifying a reality that I think a lot of people do need to face. Is that, like, it's okay for people to do things differently? It doesn't mean anybody is right or wrong or good or bad. It just means that maybe you're not compatible, that maybe the two things that you want, right, don't really go. But I was curious and Welcomed to my brain. I'm like, I had, like, 17 questions, and I'm like, which one do I want to go with first? But I was curious, what are you seeing now in dating after your experiences right now? Being more aware, really seeing things differently. What are you seeing in the dating world right now? Being in it. And what. I'm curious, too. Like, your avoidance, how it manifested and, like, in ways. Because I think a lot of people that are listening maybe misunderstand. Right. And I. I was warned. I didn't really understand what avoidance was or, like, the lack of understanding. So let's start there. What's dating like?

[B]

Dating, certainly. I mean, I host dating events across my city. Back home, I have a podcast. I do dating Q and A's on my Instagram every single Sunday, predominantly for women. What I'm seeing more and more and more is that, like, genders in heterosexual dating are more polarized than they ever have been. Men and women just don't understand themselves. And this is very, very general, but men are kind of retreating into this hole right? Where they're like, I'm not understood by women. I don't know what women want anymore. Am I meant to be the provider and approach first? Or certainly some of the guys that are a bit more, you know, in tune with things like boundaries are now like, am I even allowed to approach anymore? And so I think for a lot of guys, they're like, I'm just giving up. I don't know what I'm meant to bring to the table. And then the flip side is, for the women that I, you know, speak to on the pods, the women that I meet at these day and events, they're like, I just want a guy that's gonna step up, you know, Like, I want a confident guy. I'm not looking for too much. I don't want six foot, blue eyes, guy in finance or whatever it is. Like, I just want a guy that's emotionally available. And so this is it. There's a real challenge here. And a big part of my mission is about better communication, better understanding between the genders.

[A]

I couldn't agree more. And I think if speaking in the heterosexual norms in that way, and then we have the LGBTQ community and they have the. Everybody has their own challenges. Like, I don't think there's anybody that has it easy. I can say that. But I've noticed as well. Like, I mean, obviously, I'm not in the dating world directly, but, like, I'm in it in a different way. I'm just Not. I was in it for long enough to not need to be back into it at this time. But I think what I've really seen is just like, to your point, I don't think anybody knows how to be who to be. And we're scared because, like, I'll be honest, I was scared to be myself, because if I'm myself and that doesn't work, I literally don't know what else to. To do. And I'm curious, like, when you were in your heyday of your avoidance and you noticed, right? Like, okay, wow. Before you noticed it, 1. How was it showing up? Like, what was your modality of handling it? Because I think everybody really is different. And then my next question would be, were you cognizant and aware of the impact that you were having on people?

[B]

Right. So I love this because my awareness of it came from a quite unusual place, and it was. I was in a relationship with someone for six years, right? We lived together. She was amazing. She was literally the perfect person for me. Right? She was, like, calm, very empathic. Her ability to listen and understand me was incredible. And she spotted my sort of challenges, my issues before I did. Right. And I mean, I won't go over it in a huge amount of detail, but my avoidance came from a lot of abandonment as a kid. And I didn't understand the relationship between not having a father and all the kind of male role models that I had in my life, leaving, disappearing, and how that translated into how I could have a romantic relationship with someone. It was her that spotted it because we were perfect on paper, but I just wasn't able to give everything to her. I always left a part of myself back. And so when we'd have arguments about, more often than not, my repetitive behavior, so things like not wanting to talk about difficult moments, particularly around our sex life, my reaction was just, I'm just gonna step away from this. It's freaking me out. I don't. It's too much of shining too much of a light on me. And that was the thing that ended up breaking us up. It was me that broke up with her, but it wasn't for any big reason. I just couldn't deal with this pressure that I created for myself in my head. And I remember her saying, when we broke up, I hate your dad. I hate him. Because she could see where that had come from. And I was like, what the hell does that mean? And now, you know, fast forward six, seven years, I can understand it. So, yeah, I mean, it was a crazy journey. And from that moment I then rather than doing the work straight away. And a lot of guys will identify with this, I was like, right, I'm single. This is awesome. I have my freedom, you know. And so I went out and for a couple of years was like going out shagged all of London like hearts. There was no stone left unturned.

[A]

I get that.

[B]

And then about fast forward two, three years and I was like having these two three month relationships with women and then being like, they're not right and I just can't be the right person. This is something every guy listens to this will identify with. I'm not meeting the right person. Why can't I find them? And then I was like, holy shit, it's not them, it's me. I'm the problem here. And then I just ended up doing a shed load of therapy and a shed load of my own reading. And that sort of brought me to, yeah, the show really.

[A]

I appreciate Juan, the honesty, so thank you for that. But I think the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is because we see the other side of the coin. We see the villainizing of the avoidant. And everybody that listens knows I am into villainizing any of the attachment styles because I wouldn't want someone to do that to me personally. And I think though, okay, how do you feel about knowing where you were and being in that space when you hear the term? If he wanted to, he would.

[B]

I hate it.

[A]

I fucking hate it.

[B]

I despise it. Because it puts like a rule or like, you know, it's this idea that every single man is the same and they're not. And when you look at avoidance, is it 40% I think of men identify as having an avoidant attachment start. It's exactly. It's as reductive as saying, I only want a guy who's six, five plus. You know, you're wiping out a huge percentage of men based off something which more often than not isn't their fault. Their fault in it lies in the action, in how they behave. And then probably not interrogating it enough themselves, but for a lot of these guys, I mean, we spoke about it just before we started shooting. They didn't, don't even know like where it comes from. They haven't done that work. And so big part of my mission is helping guys understand this stuff better and not villainizing it.

[A]

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[B]

Absolutely not. And honestly this, I feel like this term avoidance has become very popularized. Thanks. People like me but and it's good to have that level of awareness Right. But people get it very confused with. I hear avoidance and narcissism get confused a lot. And it's like, just because a guy needs to take a bit of time for himself and maybe be selfish, like we all are, that is not narcissistic behavior.

[A]

No. And I need the other side of the story too, because my next question is, okay, and how was I showing up? Because I've had men be like, I need space. I need space for me. And it's like, yeah, because I was calling him a ton. I was texting him a ton. My anxiety was through the fucking roof. I wasn't self soothing. And again, it's not. Not that I was wrong and he was right, but it's also about going. I played a part. I wasn't. Woe is me victim. Oh God, they all keep doing this to me. I had to take ownership of how I was showing up. That's very different than if I were dating a guy. Like, I dated a guy before I met Ryan. And when I. I would ask him just even something basic of just like a. A simple like, hey, do you want to talk about that? Shut down. And you're like, okay, I was able to remove myself going, I didn't do anything here. Like, if you're going to shut down simply because I ask, like an emotion or a feeling, then I'm not going to. That versus things were going really well and I wouldn't stop and I was being like, beating this person down, then, yeah, maybe that guy might need a day. No one's right or wrong, but it's about, like, what are both people doing to stay present in this relationship and not disconnect consistently out of safety.

[B]

Yeah, exactly that. And what I'd add to that would be like, again, it's all this stuff, like, we speak in so much cliches when it comes to dating, but like, communication is so important. And I don't mean talking to each other like you're meant to talk to each other when you date each other. Right. But what I mean about that is, I mean, I use this expression all the time, like, like radical candor, being totally honest with that person, even if you're worried that you're gonna hurt their feelings. So if you're an avoidant and you are saying to a partner who, you know adores you, wants to spend every waking minute with you, which I've never had, but I'm sure it's lovely, you have to say to that person, I need X, Y and Z. I need a couple of days out of this. All right? Or I need some space when I get back from work tonight. You know that's gonna hurt their feelings, but you say it anyway because it's for the longer term. It's for the benefit of both of you and the health of your relationship and. And equally for an anxiously attached person, you know, it's about saying, like, I know you're going out tonight. I want to be absolutely clear that that's gonna make me feel quite alone, and that's because of maybe the people that you're going out with. And I know it's irrational, but I just need to tell you how I feel. Because ultimately, if you don't say, it's just gonna build resentment and then it's gonna explode. Like, it's really that simple.

[A]

People sometimes will hear me ask Ryan or say things to Ryan. They're like, you say that to him? It's like, yeah, and he loves that shit. He loves the honesty. Cause because both of us, first of all, why am I gonna hide things from my partner? Baby, you'll cry now or you'll cry later, right? Like, you get to choose. And when you self abandon, the crying is a lot more painful than it is if you just acknowledge. I don't think this person can handle. Now, there's a difference between, like, you don't be an asshole. I'm not gonna go up and be like, by the way, you look stupid today. Ttyl no, but if something really bothers me, like, the other day, it was something in the moment, and I was. His friends were over, and they were both sitting there, and it's like, you know when you're in public, you're trying to have decorum. And I. Ryan's like, very use very task. Like, if he' a task, get it done. He doesn't really understand what. He doesn't see the outside world. And we're working on that. And I was. I had something sticky on my hands, and he was washing the dishes, so I came up to, like, kind of throw my hands under, and he had, like, a bit of a temper tantrum. Like, he, like, stomped. And he was like, I'm washing this. And I just looked at him. I was like, okay. And. And he was like, oh, there's soap now. And, like, in front of his friends. And I was just like, okay, we'll talk about this after. And I didn't say anything. And then later, I just. I kind of looked at him and I said, hey, can I share something with you? And he was like, yeah, what's up. He was trying to be all cute. And I said, I don't want to ruin this moment because it is nice to. To reconnect with you. I said, to be honest, it's not that you're not allowed to tell me that you want me to wait a minute. I was like, that's never the problem. I respect the fact that you're in the middle of the dishes. I said, but it's the way you said it. I was like, you acted like a petulant child. You stomped your foot. You literally gave me an attitude. And I was like. And I said, that's okay that you want that. I said, but speak to me like an adult and I will accept it like an adult. And he just looked. And he was like, that's a very fair play. He was like, you're right. I. I didn't speak to you in the way that you deserve. Then we were able to high five. Move on. Kiss. Move on with the day. There was no resentment, There was no anger. If I kept that in.

[B]

Exactly. That's it. Right.

[A]

We all know what that would have looked like.

[B]

But. And also, right. This is a thing about tone. You can say things in different ways and they mean the same thing, but come across very differently. And so if he is now, and Ryan's a great guy, but if he then just works off that moment is like, right. I don't need to speak to Sabrina in that way anymore. I can speak to her in a different way, still get my point across. But completely change the dynamic of our relationship, like, that's just easy.

[A]

It's learning 100%. And that's why even like the whole Everybody does something different. Yes. That's why texting is different. Also, texting has no tone. We have got to. What are your thoughts on the texting and dating shit? Because, you know, I will die on this hill of texting and dating is, like, kind of ruining romance in that regard. But, like, what do you think of if a guy doesn't text you every day? It's cause he doesn't like you.

[B]

Oh. Again, I mean, it's very, very dependent on the person and the dynamic of your relationship. And also I guess, like, the precedent which has been set. Like, I think there is some logic in saying if a guy comes on super, super strong. Right. Or if it works the other way around, then, and you've got constant texting and then it sort of starts to dry up a little bit, that that might be an indication that maybe the interest is waning. But Equally. I love it when I'm dating someone and they're like, set some boundaries. Hey, I'm really busy. I can't text you every single hour. I might just drop you a text at the end of the day. I'm like, that is awesome. Because I love independence in a partner, and I think that's really attractive when they're able to set those boundaries early on.

[A]

There's a difference between a change in behavior, Right. If you've set the precedence and what happens. It's a dopamine, right? Then your body is craving more. And then when you don't get it, intermittent reinforcement starts to set in. And then it's like, well, now we're like, off the rails. But I think, you know, I remember when I first met Ryan, he set the boundary. He's like, I don't text every day. That's not an interest of mine. He's like, I have no problem. Like, I'll text. I'll call you. I'll FaceTime you. But I see this every day of. Well, he didn't text me or I'll get the. Like, the dates are amazing. Everything's fantastic. But he's dry in between texts, and.

[B]

I'm like, go off the date. Like, that's real. It's like, that's the person.

[A]

That's the person. The texting is the version of who you're making them. Because I've had some friends that are shitty texters, and in person I'm like, you're fucking awesome. But I gave them a tone, or I created that, or half the time they're doing Siri and they're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about. But I'm glad we could debunk a few of these fucking. I think, frankly speaking, myths that are keeping people single for longer than they need to be.

[B]

Totally agree.

[A]

Shall we answer some questions?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

All right, so. Hi, Sabrina. First off, I want to say how much I appreciate. By the way, I don't read these prior. So this is our first. If I fuck up, sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I swear this is right. I appreciate it.

[B]

Your hair look lovely in the last.

[A]

Episode that hasn't even come out yet. I used to be avoidant in my last relationship, and you've helped me get through that. I've been a lot better. Okay, now to my question. It's been a long time since I've liked someone, so I was super excited when I matched with someone and we hit it off. There are issues, though. He lives an hour and 45 minutes away, which isn't a big deal for me, but it is for him. It's too long for distance for him to come see me during the week and his weekends are always busy. We've been talking for two months, but he won't carve out any time for us to spend time together. Or if he mentions picking a date, he never falls through. He also never seems to know what his plans are until the day of. We met once, but it was my idea. I had a great time and thought meaning again would be give him a kick in the ass. But it didn't. He keeps saying that we'll hang out, but I don't want. I believe him. I really feel anxious and needy. Constantly craving reassurance. I know I should break it off, but I'm stuck thinking what if he gets better with what are your thoughts? How do I get the strength to let go of someone I'm attracted to? Thank you, Elena. Go on. What do you think?

[B]

Like, why. Why are you creating this fantasy where you can try and like save or change someone? I don't understand that. The distance. It works for some people, but only if you are prepared to commit a significant amount of your free time to seeing that person. This person is not right. So every single signal is telling you that it's probably not. There's not a huge amount of intent from him. I think the person that sent this question knows the answer to it.

[A]

The answer isn't the question.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I was going to say, say the reality versus the fantasy is what I'm looking at here. The reality that he's showing is he's not showing up. He won't pick a date. It was your idea. He's not coming through. He's not following through. You don't trust him. It's like, okay, so that's all the stuff then what I see is the fantasy and the projection of. Oh, no, no, but. Right. And I get that I've been that like, oh, but if he just sees me, then he's gonna really like me. And really where I see that is like that to me is the disconnection between the parts. Right? Between being like a 15 year old girl, being like, oh, maybe my dad will realize that like I am a better kid if I act well, do this or. But maybe if I just do this, then they're going to like me without looking at the reality. Because at least for me, and I know for a lot of people that disassociation, like where that limerent kind of Fantasizing versus being in the present moment is because being in the present moment, especially as a kid, is really difficult to accept that those are your parents. It's easier to fantasize about the life that you could have and where you could go, because that saves you from where you're at. And then you don't have to deal with this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The problem is, the reality is not even just the problem. The reality is for this guy to change this behavior, what's involved.

[B]

I mean, it's not gonna happen. Not on that person's behalf. Like, it's not. You have to change for yourself. And so that's it, really.

[A]

And it said with a lot of love, too. Like, both of us, neither one of us want anybody to waste their fucking time and to be in something that seems futile. And if we're really anxious and needy, constantly craving reassurance. Yeah. Cause this guy's not offering you any fucking safety.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

This guy's offering you nothing besides keeping narratives in your head. And you're creating a version of him. You met this person once.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Right to your fantasy versus reality point. Sometimes it's easier, and I say this again with love, to buy into a fantasy than it is to actually have the cold, hard reality. And of course, the cold, hard reality is like, you're probably gonna need to meet someone that's gonna meet your needs. That it's that simple.

[A]

And I would say, too, like, I would take a, like, old school piece of paper and a fucking pen and I would sit down and literally write, what do I know to be true about this person? Not what do I like about them, Because I like the fantasy. What do I know to be true about this person? Maybe make that a line. And then it's like. Cause could sit there and be like, oh, my God, they're so nice. What makes them so nice? What do I know to be true and factual?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what makes them not nice? Bailing on me. You know what makes them not nice? The fact that it's always my idea that they won't carve any time. Here's a funny thing. There is nobody busier than someone that's not interested. Because you know what's funny? Homeboy has no problem. His weekends are always so busy, but he's not prioritizing you to fit you into a schedule.

[B]

Honestly, there are CEOs going on dates to Coldplay concerts with hot women. You know, if they can make time. He can make time.

[A]

He can make time. That's the. Okay, so this is where if he wanted to, he would. This is where I understand the saying of the simplicity of it. Of like, he is obviously like, is not interested. I don't know that want necessarily is why it might not. We don't know what's going on with this guy. We don't know if maybe like a lot of the times too, it is really sad. But like, I've spoken to the men that do this and like one, they're like wildly unaware that the other person might even be thinking this much about them because they're like, I have met this person once, but on top of of it, they, a lot of the times are like, dealing with their own shit. Of like, I have an ex that I'm dealing with or something. And I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not like condoning it and being like, oh yeah, give him a free pass. But what I'm saying is we don't know the situation, we don't know the why. So let's not try to pretend and try to figure it out. Because this person's not giving you anything to help you figure it out.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Trova Trip. All right, let me ask you this. When's the last time you felt genuinely connected, whether it be to other people or honestly, even just to yourself? I know I struggle with that sometimes. I. I feel like I'm in my own world, in my own bubble and. And sometimes feels a little blah, especially like the same patterns, the same routines. You're not alone if that's how you're feeling. And no, you don't need to burn it all down, even though sometimes we want to. Sometimes you just need a change of scenery, different people, and a reset for your brain and honestly, your heart. So that's where Trova Trip comes in. And I am obsessed with them. So they plan group travel experiences made for solo travelers who are doing the self work but also crave real, meaningful connection. Y' all are asking me every day how you can meet people. Huab, here you go. So think about it like reading retreats in Greece, foodie trips in Japan. Adventures led by creators and coaches who help you explore more than just the destination. Sign me up, please. And what I love. Trova takes care of all the hard parts. So you can just book your flights, show up and soak it all in with a group of like minded people. And the best part, over 80% of travelers go solo, find their community and come back with friendships and memories that last way beyond the trip. And you never Know, could be a romantic one, too. So if you've been craving connection, clarity, or just a break that actually feels like a break, this might be it. So head to trovatrip.com trip that's T R O V A T R I P.com trip and use code Sabrina for $100 off your first trip. Again, that is trovatrip.com trip T R O V A T R D I P.com trip and use Code Sabrina for $100 off your 1st trip. No pressure, but maybe this is the reset you just didn't know you needed.

[B]

I would also say, again with love. If it's only been one day, that person doesn't really need to justify it. Like, it's only one day, Right? And so. But again, it's that fantasy thing, and people get really caught up in that. I think sometimes when you just get that flood of dopamine, when you meet someone amazing, you create a story before the stories even started being told. You know?

[A]

And I have the webs I've weaved, right. I've thought of vacations, I've thought of future kids. Like, things that are just obscene because, like, you're just going off in this fantasy. And it's so fun because when I read all the books and I get to create this world of the life I'm gonna live, because it's not about them. It's what it gives me.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's what it takes me from.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it almost dehumanizes the person on the other side of the relationship because you're not expecting human behavior, flawed behavior, expecting perfect behavior.

[A]

And I will say, at the end of the day, this is where I would say, what are your choices? What are your choices? Because your choices are. Yeah, you can keep engaging with this person. You can also walk away. You can also say, hey, well, I think you're really lovely. I'm looking for more intentionality. And I think this is a big. I was having a conversation with my friend the other day. Day just about. We don't need to villainize just because it doesn't work. Right. It can be, hey, this person's not giving me the energy that I need. That's okay. I have so many guys. People ask me all the time. You didn't block him. I got a ghoster reach out. A guy that I. We got on a couple of dates, we hooked up. It was like one of those things. And we were chatting, chatting, chatting, texting, texting, texting. And I had found out some stuff. He had a Substance abuse problem. And I had had a sneaking suspicion. So when he did ghost, I kind of wasn't really shocked because when I found it after and I was like, you know, I moved on with my life, life, it was like almost three years later. And he messaged me this whole apology thing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And people were asking like, you didn't block him? And I was like, why would I block. I didn't have any. I wasn't angry with him. I understood he has this shit. Because that's when I knew I was growing. When I didn't have to internalize their behavior and make it mean anything about me. I was just able to go, well, that doesn't work for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, no, thank you.

[B]

Oh, but that's. Honestly, if you can get to that point, then you are smashing it.

[A]

Your days doing well.

[B]

Yeah, honestly, I. It's hard, right? It is.

[A]

Took me years.

[B]

Can I tell you a little story about my audience, which I realized literally over the last couple of days. So in la there is somebody. I'm not gonna call it by a name, but somebody who I met a couple of years ago when I was in Lisbon. Awesome girl. And for whatever reason, over the next couple of years, it's not worked out. She's been seeing people, I've been seeing people. She broke up with her partner fairly recently and we were both buzzing because I was going to come to la, right? And I'm an avoidant. So I want, I want you to remember that. People listening, watching. We made some plans, right? Which was the minute I was gonna get off the plane, I was gonna drive to where I'm staying and then we're gonna grab a drink immediately. Cause we're so excited about seeing each other. So anyway, get to lax, pick up the hire car, get to my house, message her. No response. And I'm like, what's going on? Two hours later, get a response. Sorry, I fell asleep. I had a really heavy night last night. I'm like, that's cool, you know, I think maybe some communication would have been nice. She says, what are your plans tonight? I say, I'm really jet lagged. My dream night would be maybe you and I just get an early drink and then get an early night. She's like, that's cool. I'm seeing some friends later, so it works. Per, don't hear from her again for another couple of hours. Get a message from her at half eight. She's like, I'm so sorry. It took me ages to get ready. Kind of shitty excuse anyway. Come on, the reason I'm telling this story, there's a second part to it, is because as an avoidant man, my inclination is not to call her out. It's to be like, I don't care. Like, yeah, fine, you do what you want. I've got a really busy schedule as well. Did not have a busy schedule. Sat out of the apartment by myself, crying. Anyway. But she's like, as we spoke about, I've got the whole of Sunday free. We'd spoken about going for a hike up Runyon Canyon.

[A]

Ye.

[B]

I was like, awesome. Let's just call it a night and then we can spend the day together tomorrow. Wake up the next morning, fresh as a daisy. She messaged me at 10. She's like, hey, just a heads up. I'm going to a drag brunch today at 1.

[A]

Fine.

[B]

But I can meet you straight afterwards. And I was like, that's cool, let me know. But also in my head, I'm like, we made plans to spend the whole day together today. If you've now got a drag brunch, whatever. Avoid a man. Didn't call her out about it. Goes to the drag brunch. Don't hear from Metalwork 5. I spend the day by myself. Drove down to Malibu, Had a lovely, lovely day at 5. I get back and I'm like, text her, what is your ETA and what's the plan tonight? Because she's kind of been around. Don't hear from her till 8pm and I literally. That was the point where I was like, I just need to step up to this. So I left her voice note and I was like, hey, you've been super disrespectful my time. You haven't communicated properly. I'm only here for a week and you've made me basically change our plan for a whole day. It's really unfair. And she hadn't seen my point of view on it. But what I'd say to anyone out there is like, that kind of conflict. It's difficult to say, but it's a good thing.

[A]

It's necessary. Because I was getting annoyed for you as I was listening. This being like, okay, there's the human, right? There's the human of, hey, I'm so sorry. I totally. Or, oh, my God, I double booked. I'm so sorry. Can we change the time? Like, there are human moments of. I've had that. Of like, hey, you know, I had to Cancel A date 30 minutes before because I had a work thing and the guy got mad at me and you're like, all right, cool. No, thank you. We're allowed to have people be human.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But I think like you said, it's kind of same of this of like, how long are you gonna let someone waste your time for?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Because you could have kept going. And people pleasing and playing. Okay, yeah, yeah, you do you. But you're saying, well, then your life matters more than mine. And I think we're equal in what matters and who's important here.

[B]

Exactly that. I was like, why is your time more important than my time? You know, and. And that was it. And she could actually. Once I'd laid it out to her, she was very much like, I'm so sorry. I actually see your perspective now. And you know, she ended up coming over last night, didn't stay over just to hang out. And it was cool. And we've set up a date for this week and it was good. And even my avoidance, like, prior to if it was a few years ago, my response would have been like, I'm not fucking sitting again.

[A]

Yeah, no chance she does it again. Then that's that. It's like I think then you know, to close the chapter. But it's like, I think people are allowed to be people. And it's about the communication. Ryan's done some stuff before. Like he up Valentine's Day, right? And like I was I going to hang him to the cross? It's like, no, we had the communication about it and we moved on with our fucking day.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

All right, let's get to another question and then I want to do a profile.

[B]

Sorry about that Ramble.

[A]

No, I love the ramble.

[B]

Let's see that, guys.

[A]

I love the ramble. Yeah, give me a follow up if you're like, and right, we're not.

[B]

We're not getting married.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So you and Love is Blind season two. All right, so I've been a huge fan of your work, listened to nearly all your episodes. I completed your foundation course, which was beyond incredible. I love the foundation course. Thank you for creating such a valuable resource, guys. Go join. Now. Beyond that, I've read almost every book of your guests. Can't wait to hear when it's finished. Oh, you're the fucking best.

[B]

Is this person called Sabrina?

[A]

Is it me? Spend time with the discomfort and immersed myself journaling and self reflecting. I'm fucking proud. Okay, here's where I'm at now. I am dating a kind and emotionally available guy, Justin. Since this summer. He checks about 80% of the important boxes and meets my non Negotiables. He respects my boundaries, gives me space to heal, is patient, let's be me communicates much better than any man I've dated in the past and is open to growing in that area. Ah, sign me up. It's a big contrast to the toxic relationship I recently left, which taught me many overdue lessons. My struggle is this. I've always been drawn to emotionally unavailable partners and now I'm unsure how to navigate a relationship with someone emotionally available. I get it. I'm also not physically attracted to Justin, and despite giving it time, the chemistry hasn't sparked. And I'm not referring to the bad spark that I've learned. That is the avoidance, avoidant, that is more avoidant anxious struggle. I recall an episode where one of your guests shared how she wasn't initially attracted to her partner, but as the relationship deepened, so did her feelings. I'm wondering if that could be the case for me, if I'm forcing something that isn't here. I'm also in a weird spot because I typically had many of all of my anxious attachment behaviors in all my past relationships, and now I feel like I'm leaning towards more towards avoidant attachment, not having attachment personality disorder, so to speak. It's a very new thing for me. I'm usually the one wanting to rush things, and now I feel okay maintaining my life while incorporating a healthy pace relationship. No, that's called growth. My question is this. How do I tell if the issue is my own discomfort in receiving emotional availability, if I need more time alone, or if Justin simply isn't my person? I feel like I'm missing something by potentially walking away from somebody who is really great. I'd love your insight on this for any possibly on the. In the crunches. Warmly, Kristen.

[B]

Wow, I love this. Kristen has done the work.

[A]

Yeah, she has.

[B]

She clearly. They clearly understand their own brain. But when you were reading out, my natural inclination is to say like, well, think about some of those childhood experiences, like those triggers, like, what were the, the male role models that you had? Like, you know, were they people that made you feel naturally anxious? And has that then given you a mentality where that's how men are meant to act and if they don't act like that, that makes you feel uncomfortable, you know, because that's normally where a lot of that stuff comes from. But you can't take a broad brush approach to this stuff. Like, there are a bunch of different reasons.

[A]

Honestly, when I'm here and here, I'll be honest, like as I'm Reading this, I think there's a difference between healthy equals boring. Meaning you are not activated. Meaning you are not up and down. My mama used to ask me with Ryan. She was like, if he would ignore you for a day, would you be more into him? And I was like, shut up. Versus I'm bored with this person. Right. Like, I have had that. That was. I remember because, like, when I first met Ryan, he was a little boring at first. Like, you could see he's just, like, more closed off. But I kept seeing glimmers where I'm like, oh, he's really funny. Or like, he has a super goofy side. And I was like, where the fuck is that? Chained and hidden and locked in the depths of this person. And so for me, it was, I need to get to know him better. But the sex was fun. Like, we were having fun. We were laughing. Like, it wasn't like I was leaving. Being like, oh, I can't wait to get. Get home. That was always my inclination. If I'm on the date with you and I keep looking at my clock or I'm thinking, I'd rather be home with the dog, or I could have my toy and take care of myself. Then there's. I'm not into this. And what I'm hearing here is like, I. And I'm really proud of her for stopping and saying, I want to make sure I'm understanding this and, like, being real with myself and not jumping until he's not for me. But I would say a couple of things. One, you're not actually turning avoidant. That's not how. There's a common misconception that the pendulum will swing and you go from super anxious, and now all of a sudden, you're super avoidant. Oftentimes what we see is that means, like, you're. Now when we look at the nervous system ladder, if you're going from safety into sympathetic, and then you're going into dorsal, you're shutting down, which means we need to move you back up to the ladder to get to that safety. There's a difference between that versus, like, she said, I'm okay. I like having my own life. I'm feeling like I'm a healthy, paced relationship. I don't know that you're going avoidant. I think you're maybe waking up.

[B]

That's how I would interpret a security.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, that's more secure.

[B]

Yeah, but maybe they're so used to feeling that anxiety. And what comes with that anxiety is, like, the fireworks, the unpredictability and that becomes normal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe this is just a secure attachment to someone that. Yeah.

[A]

Frankly, I think she's forcing it. I do. I see after hearing this. And, like, I get it. I know you're trying, and I, like, my heart goes out to, like, give it old college try. But for me, when the intimacy component, when I'm not even, like, wanting to remotely fuck you.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

We're friends at that point. That's what differentiates me from wanting to be in a relationship with you versus being a friendship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are we physical?

[B]

Honestly, I've been in this situation before. Went by, I'm like, right. I've done the work now. Like, I deserve to have this very, very sort of like, placid secur relationship. And sometimes you can get confused and caught up on that. And I've dated people who, like, on paper, have been perfect. A super respectful, funny kind. Just don't have the thing with them. And that's okay. Like, not everyone is gonna. You're not gonna have that with everybody. And that's okay to admit.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Function Health. I love Function Health. And we know why I love it because they can test over 160 biomarkers, whether that be heart and hormones, to toxins, inflammation, and stress. And y' all know I'm on my mold detox, and I am. I don't know what I do with that function. I get tested. I got my initial test. It came with all of these biomarkers. And then it showed us some places that I needed some help. And then in three to six months or whatever, you know, you could do six months, you retest, and they test another 60 biomarkers so you can start to see your progress. You can see where you're at. And it's so important because, like, even. Let's think about it. Is fasting messing with your hormones? Well, we hear about this all the time. You should fast. You should fast. You should fast. But here's the thing. Women's bodies are biologically wired for reproduction protection, and their endocrine systems are closely connected to energy availability. So if you're fasting, that can naturally increase cortisol levels. Isn't this incredible? And without function, how would we be able to test all of this? And I think it's so incredible that we now have the power at our fingertips. So here's the thing. If you're thinking about fasting, if you're thinking about any of that, consider testing your levels to help you make sure your hormones are in check and your metabolism is strong before you create your plan. Especially for me, with anxiety, without function, I wouldn't have gotten the answers I needed. And I couldn't be more grateful because their blood tests, everything is so comprehensive. Comprehensive. It's truly the best I've ever experienced. So if you guys want, you can learn more and join using my link babies. It's functionhealth.com Sabrina again. Functionhealth.com Sabrina I met a lot of people that were great. We just, it was like, you're cool, you're great, healthy. Doesn't mean you just need to settle. Doesn't mean you just take them because you're like, oh, he's consistent. It's like, no, no, you're allowed to say, oh, he's consistent. He's great. Okay, so this is what I want in a partner. But I also want somebody that makes me laugh a lot, that we could talk for hours or that doesn't talk right. For Ryan, that's probably what he wants and he got me. But you know what I'm saying, what I'm hearing is another one of those like answers in the question in the sense of I think if we're being honest with ourselves. I also look at the narrative in the story. It'd be one thing if she was like, I just don't believe anybody else is for me and I've never met the one. And maybe he's. Then I'd say this sounds like anxiety, but she sounds pretty clear. She sounds pretty level headed of like, am I just looking for something that doesn't exist? And it's like, you're right. I don't want you to have a spark. I want you to have an ease where it flows and you feel really like even the hard conversations don't feel as hard. That's how it feels with Ryan, where the hard conversations aren't the end of the world and I feel comfortable, but I also want to fuck this person.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. This whole settling thing is something I hear a lot of at the dating events that I go to from women.

[A]

In particular that they don't want to settle.

[B]

Yeah, well, they're like, there are so little, so few good men out there. I'm tempted to compromise on what I'm looking, looking for. And I don't know what to say to them. Honestly, I'd love your perspective on it because my response is like, they are out there. Like, you will know this better than I will. Like figure out where your non negotiables are and figure out whether any of those or the things that you thought were your non negotiables are actually negotiable. Six foot plus. Would you date a guy's 5, 11? If everything else was great? Yes, probably. Then it's not a non negotiable.

[A]

Is that where we want to look at with settling? Is it morals, ethos, ethics? Right. Like I am not. If I morally believe in something and this person believes in murder. Okay, well, then we're probably not going to align because. Because I'm settling to be with somebody that clearly doesn't fit versus I thought, you know, and I get it. I thought I was like, I grew up in a household of like, men take care of everything. Men are the like, that was my dad. Right. He was the provider and it was, men take care of you, and you don't need to take care of your. Like, you need to make your own money, but let somebody take care of you. And then now I have a partner that works for my company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, oh, wait, that goes completely against the. I'm not settling because it's like, sure, you know what? I could. I could go out and say, I only want the millionaire guy. And it's like, okay, you're gonna have to give up other things about what you like about and what you want to get that. Yeah, that's okay. Maybe he's a little older, maybe he's a little this. Whatever it is. But you're going to have. There's a price to pay. It's a pie chart. Versus, am I settling? Because, well, he's nice. And you're like, yeah, but you don't hike your conversations. You're bored when this person's in the room, you can't wait to leave. And it's like, don't settle just because they're there.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's the difference for me. All right, we'll do a profile, and then I'll end with a quick, rapid fire. Okay, so here is Joe's profile. And so you guys will be watching. You'll be seeing. We see. So we're gonna go through each one, and then before we discuss it, I want you to give me one beat. So I'm gonna show you this first, because the first time either of us are seeing this. So we have the first photo. Guess how many takes this took?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then we have that photo. Then we have my greatest strength. I'm not afraid to apologize or admit to making a mistake. We have that. A unusual skill. I hug books and fold my socks. And then we have this Then we have. Guess where this photo was taken. We have another. How to pronounce my name. It's Joe. J, O. Not J, O. E. Not J, O. L, E, L. It's two letters. J, O, U. You could do it. Okay. Name three things you remember about this profile.

[B]

The spelling thing was weird because that's not how you pronounce it. That's how you spell it. Those spellings all say Joe, so I got a bit caught up in that.

[A]

Okay. What else do you remember? What do you remember about her profile or her.

[B]

The good stuff. Like the memorable stuff.

[A]

No, no. Anything. Three things. What do you remember about Jo? Besides how to spell it? J, O. I just did it. Besides that her name is not Jo. I apologize.

[B]

I remember that her first photo was her looking a bit outdoorsy and trekking.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which was kind of cool. Wouldn't have it as well. First photo.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because that's your entry point into that profile.

[A]

Yep. What else did you remember?

[B]

That was it.

[A]

So. Okay. Thank you. And that's my point of a profile is you have seconds to make a memorable moment and you don't remember anything besides the misspelling of her name and the fact that the first photo wasn't great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The first photo being your back and your nature. I've seen nature. I've seen nature plenty of times. I don't need to see you in nature.

[B]

Well, so that's an interest. Right. And sadly, the role of photographs in a dating app is to make you look attractive to the other person. Put it in your interest.

[A]

Put it in your interest. The second one, same thing is like, we have a lot of selfies. Or they see me. Like a lot of just like kind of headshots.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Selfie. Selfie and then non selfie. So we have. Out of all of them, we have, I think like three to six are selfies. Too many selfies.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Too many selfies. You're beautiful. I can't really tell. Like, I can see bits and bobs, but I have no. Like, I love a full body. I appreciate the full body. We have one, but again, it's a selfie that's closed and then that's it. So I would say the photos, none of them are like the most ideal photos that I've ever seen. You're too beautiful for me to not be able to see.

[B]

I agree. Agree with that. I think my thing about photos on dating apps, a lot of the time people are like, oh, if you have really nice, almost professional looking photos, it looks like you made Too much effort, and it's not authentic enough. I think get the best quality photos you can get, because ultimately, that is your front page. That's your. It's like a sales tactic, right? Sadly. And you know, I would never get cringed out of someone. Have beautiful photos.

[A]

No. And I will be honest. There is nothing in here that is me getting to know you. Okay. So you say that you hug books and fold sides socks. It's like. Okay. I don't know if that's an unusual skill. Yeah, I don't think what's on you. It's not a skill. That's just a preference. You hug books and you fold your.

[B]

Socks, which is wonderful.

[A]

That's fine. I ball them up, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How am I getting to know you? What about that makes me go, I need to date Jo? See, I got. I did it. And then saying my greatest strength. I'm not afraid to apologize or admitted making a mistake. It's like. So you take ownership.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, great. So I'm. That's good. I'm glad you take ownership. What about you?

[B]

You. This is it, right?

[A]

Can we see your profile?

[B]

I. Yeah, I'm happy to.

[A]

Let's see it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Let's see. Let's see. Example. Let's go. This is my first time seeing it. Okay.

[B]

I've never done this before. And I'm.

[A]

I'm excited. I'm excited because I think auditing profile. So Ryan and I do this, like, as a service. Like, people can send theirs in and purchase it. So we give it private. But we have had so many people that are like, holy. I did not expect you guys to lay in on me like that. And like, a. They're like, thank you for all of the feedback. Cause it's like, we want. I've had one guy write back, and he was like, I haven't gotten any matches, though. And we're like, yeah, but that's the point is, like, you weren't getting quality matches, so we're weeding people out so you don't waste your time. I can't control the people that are gonna come, but I can control how you show up.

[B]

Right? Exactly. Honestly. Go hard.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Go real hard.

[A]

All right.

[B]

There's some really cringe stuff on there.

[A]

But, hey, this episode is sponsored by Herobred. Oh, God, I love bread so much. I love Herobred so much. But for me, I had to be really cognizant and aware because blood sugar stuff that I'm going through, especially with the mold detox and everything. And so I had to find. Not wanted to. I had to find a better for you. Burger, hot dog, bun, bread, bagels, all of those things. And I am so obsessed because I'm grateful I found herobred. Each serving contains zero grams of net carbs. You heard that correct. Zero grams of sugar, 11 grams of protein and 22 gram of fiber. And what I love so much is one. They taste. Oh my God. So good. They're soft, they're fluffy, they're easy for lunch, easy on the go. Especially if you have kids. And they're picky eaters. Oh my God. I can't speak highly enough, but they are heavy on the right things, right? Focusing on protein and fiber instead of the other aspects is so important. And what makes Hero Bread such a standout? I don't go a day or a week without it. I can't. I have it on auto order because I'm obsessed. So guys, Herobred is offering 10% off your first order. Go to Hero and use code Sabrina at checkout. Again, the code is Sabrina. H E R. Okay, so we've got first photo. Okay. My biggest date fail. Getting catfished by a 50 year old Ecuadorian man called Aldo.

[B]

Yeah, that's Lois. Right? Happy, lucky guy.

[A]

Okay, then we have your second photo. We've got Sunny's photo. Which you're gonna have to send these to me so we can have them pop up. The key to my heart is dad jokes. Ask me about what I think about windmills. Big fan.

[B]

Big fan. Do you get it?

[A]

Of course I do. Big fan, bad dad joke. Okay, then the next one. Let's debate this topic. Is love truly blind?

[B]

Okay, just ring it out.

[A]

That as much as I can say, my only feedback. I actually really like your prompts because it gives me a lot to talk about.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Is love really blind? Because then people have no idea. You're like, okay, this is going to be a fun conversation. And then I love the dad jokes. This is like that. I can be like, okay. Because I have one. I will say though this. I actually don't know anything about you though.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I don't know any Mr. Avoided. I don't know anything about you. I don't know anything about you. I only know that you got catfished. I know that you like dad jokes. I know that love is blind. Right? But I don't actually know anything about who. Who Tom is. Your first photo can be so much better because here's the thing. I look going, which one is he? And then I don't want to have to scroll down to find out you're the ugly one.

[B]

Yeah, that's. I'm saying truth hurts.

[A]

All right. I'm saying what everybody wants.

[B]

The solar plexus.

[A]

I know. I would say the suit photo. Actually, you're more attractive in person than that photo. I would say lead with either you and Ben. Love Ben. I would lead with either the beach photo. That's a really flattering one. Or the. That photo.

[B]

The one of you leaned up against, like, some.

[A]

That one I would lead with because I can see full body. I can see that you're fit. Like, I can see what we're dealing with and add more about you.

[B]

So this about me thing is interesting, right? Because there are two schools of thought to this. And I'm like, right, this is going to show that I have a bit of personality, that I'm a funny guy. And also to Jo's profile, there are things you can jump off quite easily. Yeah, right.

[A]

There are conversation fodder.

[B]

Yeah. Like, what's your favorite dad joke? Or I also got catfished by an Ecuadorian man called out, you know, who.

[A]

Knows where you going to go with his thing? Because that's the problem is, like, so they go, what's your favorite dad joke? I can give you mine. What do you call a pile of cats?

[B]

Don't know.

[A]

A mountain.

[B]

Mountain. Oh, my God. That's so funny. Also, I love hiking.

[A]

Well, but you see, that's the thing. The onus is then back on to you to keep the conversation going. That's why we always are like, when we're talking about prompts is you want it to be able to feel where it could be back and forth where you're not like an ADHD kid being like, what do you call a pilot? Cats Mountain. You like hiking. And you're like, wait, what? Where did. How did you. Are you Me?

[B]

That is such a Sabrina's response. Not hiking. Mountains are awesome. Mountain Dew. Have you tried it? It's amazing.

[A]

It's all of it. I can just go off. That would be my only feedback because I feel like you could clean house if people saw you. It's just, I think lead with a more flattering photo. You are so much more handsome than that.

[B]

I'm going to change it because I'm going to get that.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No, we're going to.

[B]

After this episode.

[A]

Oh, no. Me and Ryan over dinner, we're going.

[B]

To talk about this. Okay.

[A]

All right. Rapid fire. You ready? Let's end the episode with this. This. Okay, can guys pick? And these are Audience questions. So you guys know I didn't make this up. You guys wrote these in. Follow the Sabrina Zohar show on Instagram if you guys want to write in more, because I do question boxes for our guests. So can guys pick up on the worry if the woman is running out of time? Because we want to have children?

[B]

100%, yes. And that's why you see a lot of guys, particularly guys my age, dating younger. Like, sorry. Brutal. But it's true.

[A]

Yeah. I was going to say, ah. It's like anxiety. I used to think I was hiding it. I wasn't fucking been hiding it. I think I'm hiding it now, and I'm not. Come on, let's get real. And it's not in a negative or a positive way. It's funny. My brother, he'll turn 43 this year. He's getting old anyways. And I remember asking him once, I was like, you know, what is your age group on dating apps? And he was like, I go up to 34. And I was like, why not beyond? And he was like, because I don't want to waste anyone's time. He's like, I don't want kids right now. And I'm very clear. And he's like. And almost every single woman, unless it's explicitly stated on her profile, says, I want children. And he's like. And I have more respect for that than anything. I don't. You don't want to waste it. And so I would say, be very real. If you want kids, don't hide it. Because then my business partner, he. One day, I swear on my Life, he turned 40, and he called me one day and my old business partner, and it was his 40th birthday, and he called me the next day, and he was like, I'm ready to have kids. And he went out with a woman. They. Both of them were like, I'm ready. I'm ready. They both liked each other, got married within eight months. Now they have three kids.

[B]

Good on them.

[A]

And it was because they were both like Taxi Cab. Right. The yellow theory that when someone. That when your proximity and timing matter. I've had incredible connections in the past. I wasn't in the right place.

[B]

Yeah. I got asked this last week on my Instagram, and I was. I buy into it so much.

[A]

I do.

[B]

You know, because it works both ways. Right. I've been with amazing people that if I was with an. Not that I think you should have regrets. If I was with that person now, it would be a forever. Kids, family, Thing? Yeah.

[A]

It just wasn't the right timing. That doesn't mean I have to go back and try to change it. That means I can accept it and move on. Okay, how to tell if a shy guy is interested or just being.

[B]

I mean, just communication. Like, if you think he's a shy guy, just ask him. You can ask someone in a certain way about intent, Right? Like I always say, should there be a male, female dynamic? Is it up to him to wait until he expresses his interest? Why not say, hey, we've been hanging out a bit? You know, I do have some romantic feelings towards you. I just wondered if they're reciprocated or not.

[A]

Yeah. Or if, like, I'm struggling to read this. Are you shy or are you just being. Am I misreading this? That this is more romantic than it is? Whatever it is, I respect it. I had that. I had a guy I was friends with, and he was a kind of a shy guy, like, of the group. And I couldn't read it. We hung out, like, three or four times. And, like, there was a sexual chemistry, but I didn't know if there was. And I was single at the time. And one day, I remember we were supposed to meet up and I called him and I was just like, hey. I said, this is gonna determine this. Cause he was like, nomika, you wanna take me to the hospital? It was like a whole thing. I think I needed to go somewhere and I needed, like, an emergency. And I was like. Cause I had my neighbor that was gonna take me. And I said, this is gonna determine. I was like, are we romantic or are we just friends? And he was like, I see you as more friend. I said, great, then don't worry. I'll see you tomorrow. I'll have my roommate. I said, I'll have my neighbor take me. I don't need you to take me. I was like, you don't need to leave where you're at. I was like, if we were dating, yes. I think I'd le. And then from there, we were like, then it was out in the open and we could move on with our lives.

[B]

Well, exactly. But can I just say, people get so caught up in that, and they're like, right. I don't want to ruin our friendship by admitting that I have romantic feelings. You do it the right way and the right tone and say the right thing can have no impact either way.

[A]

And there's also a reality of, like, it's also okay if you're like, I can't be friends with Them If I have romantic feelings for the time being doesn't mean forever. You could be for a couple of like, hey, whoa, I realize I'm having feelings. Like, I need to remove myself and I'll be back.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That doesn't mean it has to be. But like, allow both of you to have the space.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All right. What do you think of a profile that says searching for long term relationships and fun casual dates.

[B]

So this is something that guys get vilified all the time. Whereas looking for long term, short term also. Okay. Or like, where does that affect. And I hear women all the time saying, why does he want something casual? Like, shouldn't he be committed to long term? It is possible to have a fleeting, amazing experience with someone and it not be a forever thing. That's okay. Let's just normalize that stuff.

[A]

I got yelled at for making a video about that.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Of not everyone. Some people are in your life for a good time, not for a long time. And saying, like, I've been in a time where I was. Wasn't in a place that it was at the mental capacity and people were like, you were using people. Like, do you think I was aware of it at the time? I had no idea. But we had a good time and both of us parted ways and it didn't need to be more.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Sometimes it really is just like, this was really fun. You're not my person, but thank you for this. Great.

[B]

Exactly. You can be looking for your forever person and still have fun. Like, they're not mutually exclusive.

[A]

Because here's a spoiler alert. There are a lot of profiles for women that say they want, want casual. As if, like, only men want casual. And I'm like, there are a lot of women that want casual too. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think everybody can have their fun and their life. Just be honest about it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that. Yeah.

[B]

Can I just say one thing? Like, my whole thing is about, like, right. Let's improve the relationship between men and women. Men need to stop vilifying women that are looking for something casual as if it's dirty or shameful. Because it's not. If we were all more honest about our intention, it would make the whole dating scene so, so much easier.

[A]

And same thing I say with the women to the men in this regard for talking heterosexual norms. Again, you know, include whatever the male to male in the gay community, female to female, they to they. But I think something as well is like, women villainize and vilify guys of like, he's 43, still figuring it out. And it's like you don't know his story. Maybe he just got divorced and has three kids and is trying to figure out what the he wants in his life. Maybe this guy's parent just passed away and he was realizing that. Here's the beauty of it. You could just keep scrolling. Yeah, you don't have to figure that. You can just say, no, thank you. I only want to match with people. That's the beautiful thing about boundaries.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

All right, how do you meet people in real life? Any tips?

[B]

Oh, good one. I mean, like I said, I host dating events across my city and these things, dating apps are dying. Like, you see, honestly, all of the numbers, like the stock prices of Match Group, et cetera, et cetera, they're all plummeting. And that's because people are fed up with online. They want to meet. And it's a city based thing. But in every single major city now, there are incredible events that you can go to where everyone there first is single, secondly has intent. Right? So like that would always be my starting point. But what I always say to people as well is like, if you're looking for shared values or shared interests, then the place to find a partner might be within one of those interests in that circle. So I don't want to use run clubs as the example because it's a bit of stereotype. But it could be anything, right? Like paint and sip, book club, whatever it is, you already have that advantage and that shared interest.

[A]

That's how I feel. Like, put yourself into the community. Like, I don't drink alcohol. It's just not my thing. So why am I going to a bar, right? Like, what am I going to do there? It's like, I'm not going to go to like a fucking motorcycle meet up if I don't ever ride a bike. Like, it doesn't make sense. But like, the funny thing is I was, when I moved to Venice, I was all about it. I was in height club. I was in every fudgeing club you could imagine. I was in a vent braid all the time. Like anybody I could. I'm like, because you have to make new friends and get out there. I still met my fucking partner on an app. I still met dudes where all of a sudden like a week later be like, oh, I found them on Hinge. Even though I met them in person, I think for me I understand. Like I'm with people being like, I want to get off the apps. Great. Go out and have it experiences But I also think the apps, like, they are a yes and right. Like they're not the only way to date. You can have it where you go on at night, once a night just to be like, oh, oh, this guy's cute. And yeah, he's not a runner, but he's a lifter. And I have never been to a gym, so I would never have met this person. I would say interject yourself into the community and things and people that you like to do and also just be open minded of where you're going to meet this person. It could be through a friend. It could be that you go to the group meet and that your friend's brother is single. You never know.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

All right, last question. What is. Does emotional intelligence look like to you?

[B]

Oh, I love that question. I do know I've never been asked that before. Let me have a bit of a think about it. So for me it's about. It's a very broad topic, but it's about understanding your own behaviors and where they come from. So, like, for me, I had certain really damaging behaviors in my dating life. You know, when you think about avoidance, a lot of stuff I talk about my podcast around things like ghosting, abandonment, fearing, rejection, all that kind of stuff. And they were either things which I would hurt other people with in terms of behavior or things which I'd hurt myself. Emotional intelligence for me is understanding where they come from and then having the ability to long term try and change them.

[A]

Yeah, I. Emotional intelligence personally is like the ability to be able to articulate what they're experiencing in the moment. The ability to emotionally regulate and come back to the present moment, the ability to communicate even through difficult times. And emotions like that to me is emotional intelligence. The ability to be able to articulate where they're feeling, what they're feeling, to hold space, space for my emotions as well. Like, I think it's such a multi layered conversation, but something that, yeah, boy.

[B]

This is the other thing. I would describe myself as quite an emotionally intentional person, but my. It's selective. So there are certain emotions which. Anger, for example, which I'm not very good with because of a lot of stuff that happened in my childhood. And embracing some of those more negative emotions and being more comfortable in them is another form of intelligence for me.

[A]

Agreed. I think that's the part of also the compassion and the curiosity and. God, you and I could talk for another fucking hour. Tom, thank you for joining us. All right, let everybody know which podcast, what I was on. Where can they find you? All the fun stuff and can they still slide into your DMs?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm hideously single now, which is nice. It's really good. I'm embracing it. But so Sabrina was on episode why do Men Love Born. Which was all around Love Moment. My podcast called why do Men. It's all about male behavior and dating relationship. It is flying at the moment, which is really, really good and I'm really excited about it. I also has Meng's group for those guys listening called shoulder to Shoulder. Find me on Instagram stroudtom.

[A]

It's easy one to look for and we'll link everything. And guys, again, just an FYI, if you did message Tom and you tried to slide in his DMs, please know it's not personal. It's just that there's a lot of inundation and even for me, like I miss so many messages. It's not personal. Sometimes it's just not. You might not get a response back and that's okay, baby. Shoot your shot.

[B]

I just, I do try and read every single DM and you know, but it's just difficult to respond to everyone.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. Tom, thanks for being here.

[B]

Oh my God, you're so welcome. Thank you.

[A]

Till next time, guys. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is hot out there this summer, right? But don't sweat it. We got tons of ways to save on your family's favorite personal care items.

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