Podcast Summary: The Sabrina Zohar Show

Episode 177: What's Actually Happening In An Avoidant's Brain When They Pull Away w/ Chris Lee

Release Date: December 12, 2025
Host: Sabrina Zohar
Guest: Chris Lee (Neuroscientist)

Overview

This episode dives deep into the neuroscience behind attachment styles, with a particular focus on avoidant attachment—what's happening in an avoidant person's brain when they pull away from intimacy and connection. Sabrina and her guest, Chris Lee, challenge popular misconceptions about avoidant behavior, discuss how triggers and regulation actually work at a neural level, and highlight the roles of both anxious and avoidant partners in relationship dynamics. Practical tools for self-awareness, co-regulation, and boundary setting anchor the episode, fostering empathy and agency for anyone navigating modern relationships.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chris Lee’s Background and Motivation

• Chris shares a powerful story of trauma and transformation, explaining how personal loss and upheaval led him to study neuroscience and emotional regulation.
  • "I went back to school for neuroscience, trying to get answers for what happened and what's going on inside my body... What the fuck are these emotions? What do you do with an emotion?" — Chris (01:26)

2. The State-Story-Strategy Model for Understanding Emotional Responses

• Chris introduces his core framework:
  • State: Your neurological state, ranging from dysregulated to regulated.
  • Story: The meaning and narrative your brain creates in response to your state.
  • Strategy: The actions you take based on your story.
  • This model offers a scientific, actionable path to break reactive patterns and heal dysfunctional strategies.
  • "The regulated state is determining the story and the narrative that you're telling yourself... So you can start to reverse engineer: Oh, I took this action because I was telling myself this story, and it was because of this state." — Chris (04:18)

3. Misconceptions About Regulation and Healing

• Regulating your nervous system does not mean you become emotionless or purely happy:
  • Instead, it expands your emotional "palette" and gives you access to more nuanced choices.
  • "Your bandwidth for emotional expression increases the more regulated you become, which means the availability of your emotional palette expands." — Chris (06:53)

4. What Actually Happens in the Brain When We're Triggered?

• Triggers are predictive, not reactive: your brain compares current situations to past threats and deploys old survival strategies.
• The amygdala, prefrontal cortex, and dopamine systems all play a role in how we respond to perceived threats or emotional ambiguity.
  • "Your nervous system isn't triggered. It's predictive... It asks: what does this look like? Did this look like a threat in the past?" — Chris (08:14)

5. Safety in Relationships and Triggers

• True relational safety isn’t the absence of triggers, but being able to have them and process them together.
  • "Do you have somebody that you are safe to feel mad with—not at? That's a huge shift." — Chris (10:19)
• Sabrina shares a personal example with her partner, illustrating how acknowledging triggers creates space for healing (12:42).

6. Why Avoidants Pull Away: The Science

• Pulling away isn’t always a conscious choice—it’s a regulatory reflex.
  • Classic avoidant backgrounds: lack of emotional validation in childhood, making intimacy feel threatening.
  • Avoidance as a strategy to maintain safety and manage emotional overwhelm.
  • "That pulling away strategy for them is a regulation strategy... The intimacy, the depth of vulnerability, it's conflict. And conflict is dangerous." — Chris (14:25)
• Anxious counterparts tend to interpret distance as a threat, driving protest and reconnection behaviors.

7. The Dopamine Trap and Co-dependency

• Uncertainty in relationships creates dopamine surges, reinforcing obsessive behaviors and codependency.
  • "Uncertainty and this has to do with the limerence... It shuts down the frontal cortex, increases oxytocin. We have this chemical cocktail telling us how amazing they are and how bad it's going to be." — Chris (16:57)
• External validation and fawn responses: losing yourself in the relationship.
  • "You become codependent on your identity being based upon how they validate you or don't validate you." — Chris (18:55)

8. Breaking out of Old Patterns

• New experiences in vulnerable states are required to outcompete old, reactive memories.
• Real healing involves incremental action, not just intentions or affirmations.
  • "There's no amount of intention, there's no amount of affirmations... You need to take intentional action." — Chris (18:57)
• The power of questions in conflict: asking questions re-engages the frontal cortex and diffuses old patterns.

9. Overthinking: The Neuroscience

• Overthinking is a response to anxiety, not a lack of "listening to your gut."
• Neural networks (default mode, ACC) toggle between focus and rumination.
  • "When you're overthinking, you are not the director of that story; you are purely an actor." — Chris (29:27)
• Bringing feeling, thought, and action back into alignment is key.

10. Communication, Boundaries, & Emotional Responsibility

• Effective communication means being specific, not ambiguous or threatening ("We need to talk" triggers alarm).
• Don't project your needs or accountability onto your partner; focus on your own experience and boundaries.
• "How you show up is for you. Because to that point, I was going to ask you, how do you gauge emotional availability? By having that type of conversation." — Sabrina (42:55)

11. Emotionally Unavailable: Not Just for Avoidants

• Both anxious and avoidant types can be emotionally unavailable—it’s about the inability to tune into authentic needs and emotions.
  • "You're equally as emotionally unavailable. You're not understanding what's coming up for you." — Sabrina (36:41)
• Emotional problems are not meant to be fixed for someone else but witnessed with empathy.
  • "What destroys a ton of relationships is the fact that they're dysregulated. But we try to fix emotional problems. Emotional problems are not meant to be fixed. They're meant to be witnessed." — Chris (48:28)

12. Q&A: Boundaries, Therapy, and Moving On

• Many listener questions revolve around "How can I get my avoidant partner to do X?" Chris points out the projection of responsibility and the importance of self-inquiry.
  • "People are projecting responsibility for how they want to participate in the relationship onto the other person... At some point, you have to ask if your needs are being met." — Chris (45:56)
• Avoidants often don’t thrive in couples therapy unless self-motivated.
• Healthy grieving and moving on involve reinvesting attention into yourself, acknowledging grief, and not seeking closure from the other.
  • "Grieving is really changing the dynamic of the relationship, and it's closing that loop on your terms. Closure is bullshit." — Chris (54:28)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Regulation:
  "Regulating your nervous system doesn’t mean emotions go away... What it means is that you can now access a place of choice." — Sabrina (06:15)
• On Safety:
  "You want a partner that you feel safe to be triggered with, and then you want somebody who can hold that space for you." — Chris (08:14)
• On Patterns:
  "Only circumstance is going to outcompete old circumstance. You need new experience to counteract that old experience." — Chris (18:57)
• On Codependency:
  "You become codependent on your identity being based upon how they validate you or don't validate you." — Chris (18:55)
• On Emotional Availability:
  "Emotionally unavailable is a terminology that is quite misused... You're equally as emotionally unavailable." — Sabrina (36:41)
• On Conflict:
  "Emotional problems are not meant to be fixed. They're meant to be witnessed." — Chris (48:28)
• On Healing:
  "It stops being traumatizing when you take more from it than it takes from you." — Chris (26:57)

Notable Timelines

• Chris’s Introduction & Journey: 01:14–04:18
• State-Story-Strategy Model: 04:18–06:15
• Trigger Mechanisms in the Brain: 08:14–12:42
• Pulling Away and Avoidant Attachment: 14:16–16:56
• Dopamine & Codependency in Relationships: 16:56–18:55
• Breaking Patterns and Healing: 18:57–21:02
• Overthinking & Neuroscience: 29:05–32:02
• Healthy Boundaries & Emotional Responsibility: 42:08–44:34
• Listener Q&A: 45:15–54:28
• Moving on After Breakup: 54:28–55:29

Key Takeaways

• Self-regulation is about choice, not emotional numbness.
• Avoidants aren't intentionally withdrawing to hurt others—it’s a learned regulation strategy, often rooted in early unvalidated emotions.
• Triggers reflect old patterns and stories—relational safety means being able to express and process these safely, not eliminating them.
• Overthinking is a neural defense, not an intuitive failure.
• Both anxious and avoidant partners have growth work to do; projecting blame or hunting for closure from another never produces healing.
• Healthy relationships require self-awareness, honest communication, empathetic witnessing, and firm but compassionate boundaries.

Closing

Chris and Sabrina leave listeners with a blend of neuroscience and real-talk: relationships are tough, healing is nonlinear, and everyone has agency in shifting their own patterns. Stay curious, practice self-compassion, and remember: "Allow your feelings and trust the patterns." (Chris, 55:27)

Guest Info:

• All things Chris Lee: @DrChrisLee (TikTok, Instagram)