183: Lessons In Healing Anxious Attachment Style W/ Paige Homan

Summary

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The Sabrina Zohar Show

Episode 183: What Anxious Attachment Really Looks Like From The Outside
Guest: Paige Homan
Date: January 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special episode features host Sabrina Zohar in a candid, heartfelt conversation with her best friend of seven years, Paige Homan. The pair dive deep into what anxious attachment looks like in real life—not from a therapist's office, but through the eyes of someone who witnessed Sabrina’s transformation first-hand. Listeners are given an honest look into past dating chaos, the struggles of anxious attachment, and the tangible work it takes to move toward relational security. With raw insights and plenty of laughs, this episode is a must for anyone grappling with anxiety in relationships or curious about what 'doing the work' looks like on a personal level.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Friendship and Shared History

[02:41–05:01]

• Sabrina introduces Paige as her “object permanence”—someone she always felt safe to be herself with.
• Both acknowledge their similar childhood traumas and how it shaped their attachment styles.
• Sabrina: “You taught me that that's an existence and that that's real.” (04:19)

2. Early Dating Struggles: The Outside Perspective

[05:01–09:00]

• Paige recalls watching Sabrina cycle through dates, heartbreaks, and relentless hope.
• Paige admired Sabrina's perseverance:

  “You always had this relentless like pursuit that was actually admirable…at least you’re trying, you didn’t give up.” (05:32)

• Both share their anxious attachment behaviors, especially texting and idealizing new partners.
• Sabrina self-describes her behavior:

  “I just couldn't sit still, when I was panicking, when I was overthinking everything, couldn't not text somebody.” (00:58)

3. Manifestations of Anxious Attachment

[06:32–09:54]

• The conversation deepens into specific anxious rituals: overtexting, craving affirmation, and spirals when responses are delayed.
• Both recall romanticizing partners quickly, the urgent need for validation, and the heartbreak that followed.

4. Growth and New Awareness

[12:12–14:07]

• Both friends began therapy around the same time, marking a shift toward self-awareness.
• Sabrina shares a memory:

  “I remember we were packing orders for software and I was having a panic attack…sending him these novels.” (12:54)

• Both note earlier lack of red flag awareness and the dangers of black-and-white dating advice (e.g., “If he wanted to, he would”).

5. Recognizing Patterns and Learning to Pause

[14:07–16:49]

• Sabrina describes slowing down and learning to tolerate pauses.
• Paige learns to pause before reacting, inspired by previous podcast guest David Guilliam’s phrase: “Pause. What a pleasure.” (14:49)
• Both recount the struggle of breakups and the emotional toll of letting go when anxiously attached.

6. The Role of Family, Upbringing, and Societal Pressure

[19:02–20:12]

• Discussion on inherited beliefs: working hard for love, striving to deserve acceptance.
• Societal pressures on millennials—expecting hard work to automatically lead to relationship and financial success.

7. Dating in the Modern World

[20:12–23:39]

• Paige:

  “It feels like you need to be introduced by friends…or else it feels hopeless.” (20:46)

• Both note the current dating landscape is not radically improved, even post-pandemic, with many still seeking commitment-averse partners and navigating disconnection.

8. Triggers, Healing, and Real Change

[24:20–30:23]

• Sabrina reveals how understanding her triggers and recognizing bodily cues (heat, urgency) signaled anxiety.
• Both agree: real healing happens in relationships, not just in isolation or theory.
• Sabrina on practicing new behavior:

  “It’s like, you read how to do a deadlift…but then you go do it, you take your back out and you’re like ‘But I read all about it!’” (27:09)

9. Game-Changing Lessons from Relationships

[27:47–31:06]

• Paige’s biggest lesson: Slow down and don’t react impulsively; defensiveness can sabotage connection.
• Sabrina’s insight: Safety in relationships doesn’t mean the absence of problems, but the freedom to explore conflict with a supportive partner.
• Both emphasize the continuing presence of anxiety but increased ability to self-soothe.

10. Owning Your Narrative & Taking Accountability

[36:33–39:52]

• Sabrina stresses: “The only difference between the two of us sitting here and anybody listening is the choices that have been made along the line.” (36:33)
• Both friends reflect on how incremental changes—therapy, health, boundaries—add up to big internal shifts.
• Paige commends Sabrina’s bravery in self-examination:

  “A lot of people will find the other person to blame, and that’s the easier route. But it takes a lot of strength to figure it out…” (45:45)

11. Looking Back With Gratitude, Not Regret

[38:32–41:08]

• Both express gratitude for their messy, tear-filled journeys, recognizing that falling on their faces taught them the most.
• Sabrina: “I don’t regret a single second of anything I’ve done up until this point…because I would never, ever be able to appreciate what the other side of that looks like.” (39:21)

12. Micro-Habits and Future Self

[41:18–42:50]

• Paige shares her ritual of envisioning her ideal day and integrating micro-habits toward that reality.
• Sabrina’s new practice: learning French each morning, using intentional routines to disrupt anxious thought cycles.

13. Accountability for All Attachment Styles

[46:48–48:20]

• The hosts challenge the narrative that anxiously attached partners must “do all the work.”
• Sabrina: “I’m not a fan of ‘blame the avoidant.’…No, both of you do. It’s everybody coming forward…” (47:53)
• Emphasis on bilateral responsibility for healing within relationships.

14. Enduring Connection & Final Reflections

[49:04–end]

• The friends sign off by celebrating the depth of their bond:

  “True connection, whether romantic or friendship, doesn’t die just because maybe you’re not talking every second of the day. When you have something real, time and distance won’t stop that.” (49:04)

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Notable Quotes

• “You were one of the only object permanences that I ever really had.”
  —Sabrina, (04:19)

• “I just thought maybe that's normal for Americans...personally, I thought at the time I was like, she's so brave.”
  —Paige, (05:17)

• “I had to learn to slow down...just because they didn’t answer you doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong.”
  —Sabrina, (14:07)

• “Pause. What a pleasure.”
  —Paige, referencing David Guilliam, (14:49)

• “You can stay single as long as you want… it’s easier, because you’re not triggered. But when you get into a relationship, you are going to be triggered in ways you never thought possible.”
  —Sabrina, (25:52)

• “The only difference between the two of us sitting here and anybody listening is the choices that have been made along the line.”
  —Sabrina, (36:33)

• “True connection...doesn’t die just because maybe you’re not talking every single second of the day, but when you have something real, time and distance won’t stop that.”
  —Sabrina, (49:04)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:41: Paige’s introduction and beginnings of friendship
• 05:32: Paige recalls Sabrina’s admirable persistence in dating
• 09:54: Realizing the physiological roots of anxiety; therapy beginnings
• 12:54: Sabrina’s panic attack and over-explaining via text
• 14:49: Introduction of the “Pause. What a pleasure” practice
• 19:02: How family and society shape attachment and work beliefs
• 25:52: “You can stay single as long as you want…but when you get into a relationship…”
• 27:09: Deadlift metaphor for reading vs. doing healing work
• 36:33: “The only difference...is the choices made along the line.”
• 45:45: Paige on the bravery of doing internal work
• 49:04: “True connection doesn’t die…when you have something real, time and distance won’t stop that.”

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is intimate, honest, warm, and peppered with humor. Both women model mutual support and vulnerability throughout, offering hope for anyone battling anxious attachment. The episode’s clear message: long-term change comes from consistent small choices, self-reflection, and community. Personal growth is ongoing and non-linear; true security comes not from eliminating anxiety, but from learning to self-regulate and be vulnerable in safe connections.

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For Listeners

If you’re struggling with anxious attachment, this episode offers validation and hope. The transformation is possible, but it starts with awareness, personal accountability, and—most importantly—deep connection, both with yourself and with those who support your growth.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hey, girl. Hello, my love. Oh, I'm so excited to have you here.

[A]

Welcome to the set. Welcome to the show. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much. It's amazing to see this in person. You have just done so amazing for yourself.

[A]

Thanks, man. It's wild. Especially like when I think even this photo here.

[B]

Cause I'm like, gosh, I know. Well, actually today on my Facebook, it came up photos of us. When I first moved here six years ago. Now we, you, me and Clem were going shopping for things for my new home in Brooklyn. Oh, God, I remember that. Yes.

[A]

Okay, well, before we go any further into memory lane, can you introduce yourself and tell the audience who has probably no idea who you are?

[B]

Oh, I'm sure they've got no clue. Little old Paige from Australia. So I am Paige. I work full time for free people. I'm a buyer. So I buy jewelry, hair accessories and sunglasses. And then I've got a little side hustle. We own a sauna business. Sauna fan shore. I've lived in America the last six years. You and I have known each other for seven years now.

[A]

And.

[B]

And yeah, moved from England and then like before that was Australia. And so now I actually live in Wisconsin. I was living in Philly before and yeah, trying to come out to California as often as possible.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Love it. Here we.

[A]

Oh, God. Let's go down memory lane. So I met you seven years ago with software. So WearSoftware.com with my clothing line software. And I remember just when we met, I was like, oh, we're gonna run off into the sunset.

[B]

Like, I know instant click.

[A]

He just feel that with somebody. And you have not only been an integral part of my journey because you have, you were. I don't know if I ever probably even told you, but like, you were one of the only object permanences that I ever really had. Like you were the only person where like truly you, my mom, Raquel, like there's a handful of my besties that like I could be 100% myself and never ever have to worry, feel judged. Like you taught me that that's an existence and that that's real.

[B]

Bless you, Sophie.

[A]

I had to have you on because I think a lot of people see me and I mean you had your own journey, right? Like you can share whatever parts of that you want. But like you and I came from lots of childhood shit.

[B]

Yes, we did. Uh huh.

[A]

Did the work and now we're on the other side of it. But I wanted to know, even just like starting off, what was it like at being my friend and seeing like what I was experiencing in the dating world. Like what was that like to watch?

[B]

Yeah, I remember so obviously we met and I was living in London, then I moved here and you were my like first, you know, you were my home here. And I remember we spent Thanksgiving together and we did all sorts of things together. And so I remember there would be lots of dates all the time and I just thought maybe that's normal for Americans maybe. I personally thought at the time I was like, she's so brave. Like going out for dates all the time I thought was really brave. But yeah, then I guess like there was like the heartbreak like if things didn't work out and it's like. But I've always thought you always had this like relentless like pursuit that was actually admirable. Like I always thought that it was actually very like romantic to want to continue to like even if there were douchebags and like which there were lots of them. But I always like, even though, yes, we could say we're hot messes, I do feel like there was just like a really. I don't know, I just thought that at least you're trying, you didn't give up. That's what I thought was really good.

[A]

What about. I was curious, like did you ever notice? Because like where did you fall on the spectrum? We have the anxious, the avoidant, the disorganized.

[B]

I am anxious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I wasn't sure because I am so anxious.

[A]

You don't like outwardly come off as that.

[B]

No, but I think then that goes back to the childhood trauma and I think there's a big fear of abandonment. So I think that that comes out. But I think that, yeah, I think in my relationships, I think in every facet of life, I Could be so confident. And then you. You know, if I'm with someone that I love, then it's like. Or at least if I think I love them. You know, if there's been people that I've dated or whatever, then it's like the anxious attachment comes out. Very anxious.

[A]

And how did that manifest for you? Because remember, with me, it was the texting.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We all know me.

[B]

I'm pretty texty. I'm pretty into the text. Do you know what? You actually gave me that book, too. The anxious. Like, the attachment. Yeah. Attached. Yeah. I read that off of you, actually. Mine is texting. Yeah, Lots of texting. And like, idol. Like. Like over romanticizing everybody, thinking I'm in love with them immediately. Which I think I found that in you as well. So I feel like we could relate to that together.

[A]

It was hard not to. Especially, like, first of all, I slept my way through Manhattan. So, like, I had a good. Like, I had a thought.

[B]

It was very, like Samantha Jones of you.

[A]

Very Samantha Jones, if you will. I. I enjoyed it. I think. Listen, hindsight's 20 20, right? Like, where I'm at now, I'm like, wow, being single was so much fun. And we were able to go out and you're doing. But when I was in it, I was sad, I was lonely. I was.

[B]

There were moments of heartbreak that I saw. Yes. Like, there were some deep heartbreaks that. Yeah, that's sad to watch your friend go through that. But, like, I didn't think I even had the foresight to think that, like, you know, there's anything wrong with it, but I. Or, like, I don't even think there was anything wrong with it, but I think just how do you pull someone out of it? I don't think. I think everybody's got to go through their journey. But, yeah, there were definitely lots of, like, you know, if somebody wasn't sure. I think with you, though, you. You were really clear on what you wanted right away. And so I think that was. I think that worked in your favor. But then I think people. I don't know, I just.

[A]

Against my favor. Yes.

[B]

I think then they got. They got scared to then actually be honest about anything because they're like, oh, like, I've this girl really knows what she wants. And now I'm intimidated. I think they got intimidated, which is slack.

[A]

I. And I definitely, like, there were. Let's be real. When I first met you, so that was the ending of the big relationship. The big one. When you and I met, I was a shell of A human. Remember I was like super thin, really frail.

[B]

Y.

[A]

Struggling.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Was like the understatement because I think I had met you and he was still living at the house with me.

[B]

Yeah. So like I do remember that.

[A]

That was that.

[B]

And I even felt like just the way that you ate was differently. Like different compared to like now you're so healthy. You always looked amazing, but now you're like just so into like what you're eating and taking care of your body and it just. Yeah, you're glowing now. So it's. There is such a shift from that aspect as well.

[A]

Thank you. The biggest thing that I. We had an episode a few episodes ago with a doctor about like the importance. Dr. Sarasota. I'll go listen to it. The importance of like that anxiety isn't always just childhood. Like. Yes. Is that a big part? No shit. But there are other physiological bodily experiences. Like oh my God, Remember I used to eat fruit Roll ups fruit by the foot gushers like I would eat like a six year old at least grocery store.

[B]

Yes, I do remember that wonder with.

[A]

All the Coca Cola I was drinking, why I couldn't. Yes. Why? I was anxious. This episode is sponsored by Acorns, y'. All. For a long time, I didn't invest because I thought you needed a lot of money or a financial background to even start. It felt so overwhelming. What changed for me was realizing that waiting was actually keeping me stuck. Hello life. Most of us only focus on where our money is today. But Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow. It's so easy to use. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money. Even if you only got spare change, baby. And Acorns grows with you. So it supports both big and small goals across different life stages. One feature I really like is the Acorns potential screen. So it shows the power of compounding over time and lets you adjust how much you're investing daily, weekly or monthly so your plan actually fits your life. Plus, Acorns is all in one. So you can invest, save and give your money a chance to grow in one trusted place. Babes, sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus. Investment. Join over 14 million customers who have saved and invested more than billion. Head to acorns.com zohar or download the Acorns app to get started. Non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customer accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include ACORNS fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any ACORNS portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. ACORNS Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Zohar I mean I think for me the only thing that I felt like I really had at the time was Clem. He was my North Star. He was the reason then when I started software, like starting software with me so hard because it really hit my mental health, my self esteem. But I remember when you came for Thanksgiving when I was dating that dude from the gym.

[B]

Yes, I remember.

[A]

I remember that that was the time I blatantly remember thinking in my head like I think prior to that I wasn't as self aware. Now when I met you I just started therapy so I was really starting.

[B]

To understand we were both on the precipice of like really understanding having any self awareness of anything going on in our lives. I think anything. Yeah.

[A]

Like any remote of like I think I'm doing this which is making me feel this like right didn't happen.

[B]

No. Certainly not for me either.

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna say like well, moving to. Moving to a new place when you don't know anyone will humble your ass real quick and all of a sudden.

[B]

Certainly does. It does.

[A]

But which we'll get to that because I want to hear your journey. But I remember with the other guy like that was the first time. I remember we were packing orders for software and I was like having a panic attack.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like breaking down and him these like paragraphs, these novels of like I'm trying to explain to him why I was feeling.

[B]

Explaining. Yeah.

[A]

All day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I remember him just like writing about like got it or and just thinking like what is one word of respons or the thumbs up. Which I'm like I would. I wanted to fart in his neck. But I remember like in that time it's like when I think back now, let's say hypothetically both of us were single and we were going through that. It's like now I know myself well enough to where I wouldn't even entertain it. I would have just. This is low effort. No thanks.

[B]

I feel like red flag wasn't even like in the vocabulary almost. It's like we weren't even identifying. I just feel like we were so junior.

[A]

We were so JV or. Well you know what I remember it was a Lot of. If he wanted to, he would. And if a guy likes, you know, if not, they'll be confused. It was a lot of that sweeping generalization, black and white. And so we're trying to fit ourselves into these boxes, but it's really hard to fit yourself into a box when you're like, I don't think I belong in this box. But I remember with that guy, just in that moment going, something doesn't feel right. Now, what did I do with it? We know fuck. All right. Like, didn't necessarily handle it very well.

[B]

No.

[A]

But it was the start of something. And I think it's like, that was the. At least for me, which I want to hear yours of. Like, you went from single to now, happily in a relationship and working through the anxious attachment and all that. But I think at least for me, I had to learn to slow down. I had to learn to pace myself. I had to learn to be like, hey, dude, you don't need to respond right this second. Or, just because they didn't answer you doesn't mean there's anything wrong. What was your journey like when you started to really realize, like, wait a minute, I need to change the way I'm doing this shit. This ain't working. What was the first thing that stood out for you?

[B]

I'm clingy, which you might not believe. So then I want them. If I felt like they're not responding in time, then, yeah, I'll do like, the over texting or get my feelings easily hurt. And, like, I have to tell them right away that my feelings are hurt. It's like, do you really need to tell somebody, like, constantly that your feelings are hurt? So then I realized, like, I think I might be part of the problem. So as it turns out, so then, yeah, I've been going to therapy and I've been working through, like, anxious attachment. And one of the things that has really. I'm still got my training wheels on, but pause. And David Guillem, who you had on the show as well, he always says, like, pause. What a pleasure. Like, say that to yourself every time you think you want to react to something. And I think that's the thing that's most important for me is, like. And to your point, slow down. Like, I don't need to address every minute disruption that I have with this person. And, like, I think that's where my anxious attachment really comes in, is like, the constant need for, like, affirmation or like, that they're obsessed with me.

[A]

That was why I was obsessed with the text?

[B]

Yes. Like, it's the texting. Yes. Validate. Yeah, right?

[A]

Like, I even remember. Oh, God, I remember the gym guy. It's funny because I can talk to you about the stories that flood back, because when I'm explaining to anyone that's listening, I'm like, you guys just don't get it. Now, the one thing I was. As I was saying, what did you notice? At least with me, what was my comment like? Did you notice a common theme of every person that I dated, My mom.

[B]

Felt like you were very. Like, this is the one. What?

[A]

Like, every single.

[B]

Very hopeful. Yeah. And like, but then I think also you were like, but I'm pretty relaxed about it. Like, I think it's going to be fine. And I think, like, you know, there's nothing for me to worry about. And then, like, maybe he would change the. If you guys were going to go on a date, maybe he just, like, had something else come up and that would really hurt your feelings. And honestly, I could relate. So I related to that because I felt like my anxious attachment was also showing up in that moment. So. So it's like it was the blind leading the blind a little bit.

[A]

I remember the gym because I remember I was with you. You were visiting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was the guy that I was super into and super excited. And I remember when he texted me and you sat next to me and you held me while I cried.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I was crying hysterically. And I remember. I remember even you taking my phone and you were like, this is a copy and paste job. I can see the way he wrote this. Like, don't remember that. And you were, like, internalized.

[B]

Some things were just so scripted. Like, some of the responses we'd get back were like, we as in you. But I felt like I was there with you would be, like, so scripted, as if, like, they just do this, like, every couple of days with whoever. It's just like, that is not what we want in our lives. Very inauthentic.

[A]

100 now, at least for me, like, you know, my family, it took me a minute to be able to, like, find my voice and be able to speak up. Now that I have, I can't fathom going back the other way.

[B]

I cannot imagine you, Like, I honestly cannot imagine. Like, just, yeah, you have found your voice, and I feel like you have this confidence that you did not have before.

[A]

I've been. It's been waning. It's been in and out. Just because, like, after the name change and the last year, like, everything has Changed. The world has changed.

[B]

The world has changed.

[A]

Especially post Covid, like the post Covid world, I don't recognize it. Positive, negative.

[B]

Everything's just where timelines are shifting and everything's on like fast forward mode. It feels like right now.

[A]

Yeah. And I, I know for me, like, oh, I'm curious what your pattern was. For me. I kept going for the unavailable. The guys that would either come on really strong and dote me and do all the texting and the calling and the, oh, my God, you're amazing. And then shift. Right. Like every Utah guy.

[B]

Yes. Oh, my God, yes, I do.

[A]

That was like catastrophic. But at the same time, I think, like, that's when that, that situation was the first time I remember, like, walking away, being like, I'm changing the way I'm doing things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now didn't necessarily mean it worked out in my favor.

[B]

But the acknowledgement of that is a step forward. I think, like, that even if we don't always like, action, it immediately recognizing, like, okay, I don't want this. Because there's a long pattern of accepting that and thinking it's normal.

[A]

Especially with my father and like, the way that love was shown to me, I thought, like, but even now, even sometimes in my career, I'll catch myself going, no, you have to work really hard. You don't just get that given to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And stopping myself mean, like, says who?

[B]

Exactly. We write the rules. We can literally create exactly what we want. And. But we get stuck in, like, the belief system that we were taught, obviously. Or that we learn as we grow up as well. Not necessarily just from our parents, but just society.

[A]

Say, women being small, Play small, be quiet.

[B]

Yeah. Or work hard. Like, to be successful, you need to slog it out. And that's not true either.

[A]

We got as millennials. We really did.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Don't get me wrong. But we did get into the short end of the stick. Should. End of the stick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you work really hard, you'll get what you want, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Growing up, it was like, work really hard, you'll get a husband, wife. Right. A partner. You'll get a house. You get the kids, get the dog. And you could have one, maybe a dual income if you need it. Now, dual income doesn't even take care of each individual.

[B]

No. We're all fighting for our lives and it's like everybody there's just. Yeah. It's crazy right now. It really is. Yeah.

[A]

I'm curious. What are you seeing, like, with your single friends, what are you seeing in Dating right now that is either the same or different, if there is any. Because I haven't noticed anything different from when we were dating.

[B]

No, I don't think so. I mean, I have only a few friends these days that are single and it's still the ship bags on the dating apps. And yeah, it's like very lack of commitment. There's. Yeah, I just don't feel like it feels that hopeful. It feels like you need to be introduced, like by friends. I know.

[A]

I.

[B]

Which maybe goes against you.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by One Skin. Can we talk about New Year's resolutions for just a second? January used to be about, like totally reinventing yourself, but now it's more like doing an honest audit of what's actually working and doubling down on that. At least for me. I am taking my skin health so seriously. You guys know, to me, I am not about anti aging. I'm about graceful aging. And that has meant that I am never stopping using my One Skin. I love their eye cream and the reason I love it is because at the core, it is their patented OS1 peptide. It's the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells, the root cause of wrinkles, creepiness, and the loss of elasticity, which is all key signs of aging. And these results have been validated in four different clinical studies. I love it. It's super lightweight. I pop it on and then I can put my makeup on over it. It sits like a dream and it really helps to hydrate my skin. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, One Skin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the cells that cause the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now. And as you age for a limited time, One Skin is making it even easier to stay consistent. With up to 30% off your first three subscription orders. When you use Code Sabrina at Oneskin Co. Sabrina, that's up to 30. Code Sabrina. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them the Sabrina Zohar show sent you. This episode is sponsored by Green Chef, y'. All. If you've ever felt annoyed by healthy meals that aren't actually healthy or tired of being told about the next wellness trend, baby, I got you. And that's why I love Green Chef. Green Chef delivers clean eating without compromise. So every box includes certified organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins and seafood, so you're not dealing with ultra processed fillers. Their meals are also science backed too, with options like Mediterranean high protein, high Fiber and plant based plans that are are clinically proven to support healthier habits. What I love most is the convenience. Green Chef handles the research, meal planning and grocery shopping so I can focus on eating well without the stress, especially on date night or during lunch. The meals are low prep, low mess and easy to fit into real life. They're also the most sustainable meal kit. Cutting food waste by 20% compared to grocery shopping and offsetting 100% of delivery emissions. It's amazing. Guys, this is the best part right now. Go to greenchef.com SabrinaGraza and use code SabrinaGraza G R A Z A to get 50% off Green Chef plus a free bottle of Graza olive oil set in your second and third boxes. Guys, that's the olive oil I use. I'm obsessed. This offer is only available for a limited time, so don't wait. That code is sabrinagrazagreenchef.com SabrinaGraza I think right now, meeting people in general, even whether that be friends, whether that be like even work. Right. Hiring people, that has been so difficult. You know what I'm saying? You oversee people. We have had talks in years ago when you had bad assistants or bad people, you're just like, I'm gonna go crazy. Like, this person added more work to my plate.

[B]

Yes, this is very true.

[A]

I feel like there's a lack of integrity overall with a lot of people not saying everybody.

[B]

I feel like, is it because of smartphones? Has it created this like feeling of like the grass is always greener because everything is accessible right at our fingertips?

[A]

Like feels like it. Right. I was talking about like the Amazon generation now where people get upset that I have ads on the show and I'm like, I'm sorry, how else do I keep the show from free for you?

[B]

Exactly. Also as children, every TV show. Every TV show. Yes.

[A]

And I pay for that. And I'm like, I pay for cable. I don't. But to me, I also learned recently that the more like for every minute you complain, it adds like two or three hours of cortisol to your day for every like minute to two minutes of complaining.

[B]

Good facts, right?

[A]

So the more I started to complain, the more even sometimes of like when I come from lack. So my really good friend, his name is Dr. Chris Lee. I'm so excited. I love him. Oh, wait, no. By the time this comes out, his came out the month before. So he always talks about your state, determines your story, determines your strategy.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I can't think of anything more applicable, especially when I think about my dating world because I was in a constant state of dysregulation and survival.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Constantly in, like, are they going to choose me? Do they like me? Like, I don't think. I think it probably took me into our fourth or fifth year of our friendship before I started to be like. Or like, these third or fourth. Do I like them? Right.

[B]

Yes. And I remember when you would start questioning that you're, like, less about them liking me, but do I actually like them when I go on a date? And that was pivotal. Pivotal, yes.

[A]

The conventionally handsome one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I changed the way I dated after that because I knew, at least for me, I was like, I can't keep doing this. Like, sure, if I. I can. I can keep doing it. Absolutely. But I think I'm feeling this, like, collective shift right now where there's people either intellectualizing healing, where it's like they could read every book and every podcast and listen to every single thing, and they can go, but they can't do.

[B]

It's so true. Because I think about all the healing that I've done until I was in this relationship. And then I realized, like, all those books, really, it's not until you're in it and you have to do it. Thank you.

[A]

So.

[B]

And you're forced and backed into a corner, then that's when the work begins.

[A]

One thing that was huge for me when it came to healing and understanding the difference between am I actually healing? Or my intellectualizing was understanding, you can stay single as long as you want. You can stay single forever. Is it easier? Sure. Because you're not triggered. But when you get into a relationship, you are going to be triggered in ways you never thought possible. It doesn't mean it's a bad thing. And we were sold this false bill of goods. That being triggered means they're not the right person for you. They're unhealthy. They're not right. Run away. But what it actually is is do you have someone that you're safe, that you can explore that with? And I didn't know that until I got into a relationship.

[B]

Correct. As did I learn that way as well. And it was quite startling, because I don't think I've ever been in a relationship where I've really, truly been vulnerable. And I think all the childhood trauma that you and I were discussing, I'd never really been with somebody who allowed me to even access that. And then, meanwhile, before Stephen and I, I had done all this healing, and I'd all read all these books And I'd done all the podcasts and I've done all the workshops, and then, yeah, they all went out the door for a while there.

[A]

So it's like the example I always give, that's like saying, like, you read how to do a debt deadlift.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. You read how to do the deadlift. You know everything about it. You know how your body needs to be, but then you go do it. You take your back out and you're.

[B]

Like, But I read all about it. Yes.

[A]

Because when it comes to, like, being in a healthy and secure relationship, there's this fallacy that healthy and secure relationships means there's no problems and there's no issues. What it means is that there's the presence of safety to explore anything that comes up with two willing participants that are showing up at the same time. In order to do that, I wanted to ask, ask, when it comes to doing this healing work and getting yourself into a relationship, what is the one thing that you have noticed that has been the biggest game changer for you, that maybe you didn't know before you were in a relationship that you found out once you were in it?

[B]

I think that I'm very reactive, and so I think, like, my thoughts are so quick, like, being that with the ADHD that I think I find myself reacting before I've even processed my thoughts. And so I think that was one of the biggest things that I needed to learn. That actually, once I started addressing that in my relationship, it actually made, like, my work life a little bit easier too, because I was finding myself reacting at work, but not even, like, being aware of that. So I would say one of the biggest things is to slow down and to just allow whatever the situation is, if it's an argument or something's happened, not to be on the defense right away. That's like my mechanism, like my go to, like, strategy is instant defensiveness. And I think having the benefit of the doubt as well for the person, because I think your insecurities can make you believe that they are to get you. And then you combine that with being defensive. It's like all of a sudden there's an explosion over nothing that you didn't even need to go there. So I think, yeah, slowing down, really, that's like the main thing that I work with in therapy is like, how do you slow down and just pause and. Yeah, I would say that's the biggest.

[A]

We hurt relationships. You heal in relationships, right?

[B]

It's like, yes.

[A]

And I think I didn't realize that for a Long time I thought that it was. No, no, I need to be healed in order to be correct.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Until I realized, like, there's no such thing. There's never an. Like, people write in all the time of, like, I've healed. I'm like, oh, have you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Have you just.

[B]

Just.

[A]

Yeah. Again, part of being healthy and secure doesn't mean that we don't have anxiety anymore. I still have anxiety in my relationship, but I'm not worried that my partner is going to leave me. I'm not worried that I'm going to be abandoned. I'm honestly, what I still gripe with, am I going to be too much? I'm still thinking, like, no, no, I haven't unleashed who I really am on you. Because if I really, like, no filter am really who I am, who would want to be next to me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's just.

[B]

Yeah, that's Bethany.

[A]

That's her name, by the way. I've got my protector part and she's a.

[B]

Yes, her name is Bethany.

[A]

And I call her that because I was like, I have no one in my life named that. So it was perfect. But, like, any time. Because what I've had to realize too, was like, Bethany came. Like, she is my fiercest employee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's never taken a day off. She's worked overtime.

[B]

She loves it.

[A]

She loves her job.

[B]

She's super passionate.

[A]

But what I realized was like. Like, she's outgrown the job. Right. Because the job that she had was keeping my little safe against my parents. Now that I'm not, I've had to really work. Like, that's been a huge part of me to be able to show up differently in my relationship versus the hot, anxious mess. The girl that, like, would cry to you, that would text me, like, I don't get it. Why don't they like me? What am I doing wrong? And, like, would sleep with anybody that walked because I thought maybe that's how I would connect. To go from that to the version that I am now. It took a lot of me having to. To realize that I get to tell Bethany to off because I get to be her. I get to be the protector of those littles. But I don't have to be a protector part. I can just protect them because now I have. I've got everything I need in order to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's helped me, at least in the relationship, because to your point, the amount of times he'll say so, like, Ryan will say something and I'm like, I want to fucking punch you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But then I have to stop and be like, hey, was it. Did he mean to hurt you when he said that? No, he has a migraine right now and doesn't, doesn't really know what's happening.

[B]

Yes. And I admire, because I really saw a lot of that in you, especially when you moved to California. You were like having the. You and I would talk through if, you know, there was a guy that you'd gone on a couple dates with, you really liked him, and then, you know, you had plans to go to an event and then he would change it or not be as interested or whatever. And it's like, I think you were able to have that, that outer dialogue, which I was not there at all. And so I always thought that was really admirable like that you were. Yeah. Self aware to even be like, wait a minute, like, am I, am I like being too harsh a critic on myself? Or you were also like, is he into me? Like, and truthfully, is he into me or am I just like kind of over romanticizing this? And I think that does come with a lot of therapy, which. Yeah, it's an amazing, it's amazing progress and it's something I am still. Yeah. Trying to catch myself to your point. Like, am I, am I just going off on him for no good reason because of my something. My insecurity. And so, yeah, being able to question it, I think is really important.

[A]

Challenge.

[B]

Yes. Challenge your thoughts.

[A]

What I start to notice is when there's urgency, that's anxiety. Like if it's the. I need to talk about it now, I'm going to go insane. I. When I have that immediate. And for me, what I noticed, I. Because body sensations were really, really important for me. Yes. Right. Remember, I remember when you started working out and you were texting like we would. You were my, we were accountability buddies.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Pilates.

[B]

You're my exercise guru.

[A]

And like even just that it helped me to understand what's happening and what's coming up for me. And what I noticed is like to me, I honestly it wasn't until my dad came to visit like a couple years ago where I saw the difference. Where I was like, holy. No wonder when I was growing up, I hated this awful. But you don't notice that until you're in it. But I remember like when, for me, when I get dysregulated, I get really warm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like wave of heat just floods my body and that's probably the cortisol and the adrenaline. And now what I've had to learn is, like, even if I get a negative comment, like, the Internet's ruthless, I will screenshot it and I will sit with it. And I will literally just sit with it. I screenshot it, so at least I know to come back to it. Then I'll write out like, like seven different responses and I will edit.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Until I then go, okay, how do I want this to come? Because the original will be go yourself. Piece of ready, Liz. Exactly. Versus the like, relaxed version. Because then I can stop and go, hey, realize, Sab, they didn't attack you. They don't like what you said. And so this is an opportunity where I can either validate their experience and then maybe change their perspective, or I could alienate them. And. And so I've had to learn that being able to take the pause. What did that do? It allowed me to make a choice and being able to access that.

[B]

Having a choice, right? Because I think that's important. Sometimes when you're anxious and reactive, you've got no choice. And actually there's always a choice. But when you speak about your anxiety feeling, like heat, I get this, like, almost as if a lightning bolt has struck through my body and I really feel it in my chest and it's like. Then it sits in my stomach and it's like this impulse to react and it's like.

[A]

Yeah, that's the. That's the cortisol, right?

[B]

Yes. The cortisol attack. Yes.

[A]

Telling your body you're not safe.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Fabletics. Guys, there's something really special about a new workout set. It just makes you feel unstoppable. The problem is, buying new gear all the time isn't realistic. And that's why joining Fabletics as a VIP was such a game changer for me. Because new VIPs unlocking serious savings on their first outfit. So that fresh set feeling is actually doable. So when I signed up as a new VIP with Fabletics, I got 80% off everything. I honestly thought it might be one of those, like, too good to be true deals. But it's real. If you saw the baby pink set I got. Words cannot describe how obsessed I am with this pullover and jogger. Oh, my God, it's so comfortable. And the color is my dream. Bubblegum pink. I am so obsessed. And what I love even more is that the pieces feel like high end activewear you'd easily pay a couple hundred dollars for. But as I a fraction of the price, and at that Point. The VIP membership basically pays for itself. Oh, guys, Fabletics already has great deals, but I've got an exclusive offer just for my listeners if you want to follow and get that pink set with me, baby. Get 80% off everything when you sign up as a VIP. So just head to fabletics.com Sabrina take the quick style quiz and be sure to select Sabrina to unlock your 80% off. Again, that's Fabletics.com Sabrina. I mean, I remember the days were like literal panic attacks. I couldn't function. Why aren't they calling me? Why aren't they texting me? I would wake up three times in the middle.

[B]

Yes. To check your phone. Check my phone.

[A]

Oh, my God. I remember grabbing my phone and wondering if they text me or dating people that were long distance and they lived in Florida. I live in California. So if I would wake up and I have the text, then my date could go on. Or not being able to function or eat or even sit with you sometimes I would. How many times I'd pull out my phone.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So to be able to go from that to this version. The only difference between the two of us sitting here and anybody listening is the choices that have been made along the line.

[B]

Yep. Yep. And the work that you put into it. Like, you were very dedicated to the therapy and it was something that we would talk about and I always felt that it was very noticeable, the changes that were occurring. And then to see you now, honestly, to have this conversation and look back in hindsight and like, like I do recall, like tears and feeling really emotionally overwhelmed and feeling like this panic of like, you know, you're not going to find the right person and then to come and see you in this environment, just the way that you're sitting and the calm and then Ryan and just everything that. What you've built. It's like, I wish I could have told you that five years ago.

[A]

I wouldn't have believed.

[B]

No, never. I know, right? We wouldn't have. Yeah, I would never.

[A]

And it's the same with you.

[B]

Yes, I know.

[A]

Told you you'd be happily with a man and doing your dream with the career. You would have looked at me. No, you know what? I lied. I think you would have believed me because I have to say that is the one thing I've always admired about you is that no matter what you have, my mama has always. That's why you're my mom's favorite.

[B]

Sorry, anybody's favorite.

[A]

All day. But like, you have a gift where you could take the worst situation and Somehow still have a smile. Somehow still find a way to where, like, I would sometimes be like this.

[B]

Like, I don't get happy.

[A]

It is happy and not in a toxic positivity. Just be happy and like, come on, don't be negative. You genuinely found a way to spin something and be like, all right, you know what? Like, how many times we would cry and you'd be like, let's go take a walk with Claire.

[B]

Yes. So we'd always go on a nice walk, try to get a matcha or something, try to romanticize it as much as possible. Like, shift gears to, like, you know, there's only so much that we can control. And of course you have to process your emotions. I think that's important too. But I think there was, like, you know, anxiety was really driving most of it. Good portion. Yes.

[A]

And that's why I struggled to let go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was really struggling to grieve the ending of things because I genuinely believed there was no one else coming. And now that I. I mean, every day, like, I don't obviously know how you and Steven interact like this, but Ryan and I have these types of conversations, like, if we are gonna get married and run off into the sunset, awesome, cool. But if not, I don't regret a single second of anything that I've done up until this point. Inclusive of the days when you used to see me cry, I don't regret any of those. Do I regret certain aspects of, like, I wish I spent more time with Clem100. I wish the amount of times I'd go out with a guy instead or, you know, would be like, oh, I'll, you know, I'll see you guys after. I'm gonna go on a date. It doesn't fall on deaf ears, and I know that. But outside of that, I'm really happy that I fell on my face because I would never, ever be able to appreciate what the other side of that looks like.

[B]

And you wouldn't be able to share your story as well, which I think is really important because you are. The proof is in the pudding. If you do the work and you acknowledge and take accountability, your whole life could change. True, your life has changed drastically compared to when I went visit you in New York. And I always thought you had a beautiful apartment in New York, but seeing this, like, you have made it and you're doing so well, trying and.

[A]

And to be fair, it's like, I still struggle with my mental health. Right. I.

[B]

If I'm going battle, right?

[A]

If I could tell the girl five Years ago, anything would be like, let me manage your expectations. You can change everything around you. You can get new friends, you can get the new apartment. You can get the new job. You can lose all the weight. But until you figure out the shit that's internal, nothing external is going to change for you. You're still gonna feel the sadness and the weight and the heaviness. Because for me, the only thing I'm working on right now is the changing the story and the narrative. Because we were talking about when you change the state, right? If I'm coming dysregulated, then the story is going to be lack, not enough. I don't have it. I need more. And then the strategy is going to be burnout and constantly go, go, go, versus if I'm regulated. And I'm saying I don't have the proof. It's going to be. You're right, I don't know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I always like to pose the question of, like, what if within six to eight months, I told you that everything was going to be amazing? You're going to be a total millionaire. You're gonna have the love of your life. You're never gonna have to worry again. How would you change the way you show up? And for me, when my mom asked me that, I was like, oh, I'd be. Be calmer and I'd be more relaxed.

[B]

I always say calm.

[A]

And then I had to understand, what does calm look like. I would allow myself to access choice.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I would allow myself to slow down, because what does calm mean? I can slow down.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it gets better. When you and I first met, I wasn't doing that. I wasn't eating. I was trying to keep homeboy still living with me. Remember? I was like, I was gripping at.

[B]

Straws, clutching to that. Things could be maybe different. Yes, maybe. Maybe I could change it. Maybe I could fix it. I think a really good point as well, going back to, like, how would I show up something that I really like doing, like, every, like, three months, I would say is, like, write down what my perfect day is in the reality that I want. And then how do I then integrate that? What are all the little things that I could be doing to integrate that into my current life? So, like, does the future page? She's got this incredible, thriving business. Okay, so what does she do first thing in the morning? Like, okay, successful people in my mind start the day with meditation because I want to be calm. So then it's like, okay, I gotta integrate that into my day now. And all of A sudden, all those little things start to add up. And then, you know, hopefully one day I'll be calm.

[A]

It's the micro. Yes, yes, yes. You're describing beautifully, is like, so your nervous system, instead of it being, I'm gonna lose £100 tomorrow, and it's like, well, that's never gonna stick. But instead, what you're saying is, you know what? So if this is the big goal that feels really overwhelming, that mountain to climb is really high. But instead, what I'm gonna do is figure out what shoes I need, what gear I need, how much food, because one step in front of the other is the only way forward. And so if we can make them smaller, I'm the same. Instead of it being I'm gonna wake up every single morning and do all of these things, I'm like, you know, I. What? I'm gonna do one thing for 10 days to do a thought interruption. I've taken up. I'm learning French.

[B]

Good on you especially.

[A]

I want us to be able to talk to her. And so now every single morning, when my cortisol is high, I wake up and I do 10 jump squats to, like, the free cortisol.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I do duolingo. And the reason I do that is because I need to cut the thought, the patterns, the interruptions. Now, what's the difference between me and someone who sits in bed and spiraling all morning because that person didn't text them. It's the state that will determine the story, that will then determine the strategy. And if we can actually understand that, if you can change your state, then your story, then your strategy, your life will change and you will actually get what it is that you want and deserve. Because you're claiming that.

[B]

Yep, a hundred percent.

[A]

Well, I wanted to take another couple of minutes just to kind of close us off and just see if there's anything else that you think would be helpful for anyone to hear. Because I think a lot of people see me now. You've seen both sides. They see me now. They see this version, they see the US version, and they see going, oh, you must have always been this way.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I wish they knew. I wish they could see the versions that have come along the way. It's.

[B]

Honestly, there are. And, you know, I took, you know, some time today to reflect on our friendship. And, yeah, from the girl in New York who was very anxious. Not that I really like, I was also anxious. So it was. Again, I really related to that. To then I knew that you knew you wanted to change the scenery from New York. You knew something had to change, so then you moved to California. Then you were really invested into your health. And I just started to see all these little patterns changing. I think you. You've always been really into exercise as long as I've known you. But then it was the exercise you became, like, very involved in, like, all different group classes. You were making lots of friends through that. I was coming to you with some of those. Then you were doing. Really eating. Like, I was always really inspired by the way you ate. I'd always come back, like, to Philadelphia and, like, go and buy, like, all the exact same breads and, like, all the exact same, like, all health foods. And then you were having those conversations from therapy that were just starting to really resonate. There was still heartbreak, because obviously it doesn't. It's not overnight, but then to see you now, like, everything just feels in alignment. There's just this, like, glow. There's this smile. There's like. Yeah. I've got goosebumps just literally thinking. It's amazing. Yeah. I'm really proud of you. You've done a lot of hard work, and you have been so raw in. Maybe harsh at times on yourself, but in an effort to really, like, figure it out, to figure yourself out. And I think that's very brave. And a lot of people will find the other person to blame, and that's the easier route, but it takes a lot of strength to actually be the person that wants to figure it out. And I think you've done that, so.

[A]

Thanks, man.

[B]

I'm stoked.

[A]

I'm grateful to have had you on the journey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. I mean, I. I'm excited to see what happens. Another five years. All right. We. In a totally different conversation. I'm sure.

[B]

I know.

[A]

But it's probably not even because, like, I. It's interesting. What I've noticed has changed. You and I have both grown. Like, I never realized that you were that anxious. Like, you didn't come off like that.

[B]

I think that surprises people. I think it. Except for my boyfriend, probably.

[A]

No, no, that check. Yeah.

[B]

It's like, tick, tick. But, yeah. And maybe my mom would know that I'm very anxious. But I think. Honestly, I think I was in denial about my anxiety. I don't think I realized I was so anxious. And it's like, okay, now I admit it, and now I can start working on processing it, figuring out the tools. And I think it's just a disservice to yourself to think that it's always the other person.

[A]

Well, the. My avoidant narrative which drives me insane. Yeah, the avoidance the worst. And it's like, hey, I used to be her, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I used to believe the, like all the bumper sticker and all the this and all the clickbait and the do this. Don't sleep with a guy for until 15th date.

[B]

The rules like that. Right.

[A]

And I on the first date. And here we are.

[B]

Right. Like that.

[A]

That was not what the issue was, was the schmos I was doing that with weren't intentional.

[B]

Yes, they were.

[A]

They were not. They weren't at a place where they could offer that to me. But I think like, once that was all stripped away and once you just really understand, like, wait a minute, what works for me, how do I want to show up? Once I started to come internal, then everything external started to change. But it really is like, you gotta eat. You gotta eat crow.

[B]

You have to up.

[A]

You're going to have so many times you call your friend being like. So I did that thing again. But it's about like, what are my choices moving forward? And then that's also why, like, I'm not a fan of blame the avoidant. Blame the avoidant. It's like as somebody with anxiety and the anxious attachment, I was so tired of people saying, why is it that the anxious person has to change and not the avoidant? No, both of you do.

[B]

I know I do. Remember, yeah, it was always about the anxious person changing. But it's everybody, both people, everyone has. They've got to work on.

[A]

It's everybody coming forward and the other removing themselves. Because now that I'm on the other side, when I will get even, like, whether it might be an email or whatever, and I get that overwhelming, like, you see the anxiety, I can understand as somebody who might be their nervous system going, oh, no, I can't handle this. It's overwhelming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not to shame anybody, but it's to put awareness because we have no problem shaming, avoidance. So let's actually hold accountability to the right people so that we can change our life. No one's saying you have to take it. You don't have to accept it. So anyways, I am so excited to thank you so much for sitting with us. Thank you for being here and thank you for just being by my side through it all. I'm excited to see where we go from here.

[B]

I'm proud of you. I love you. And yeah, you're doing amazing, sweetie.

[A]

You're doing amazing, sweetie. And this is just proof that, like, you can have terrible friends growing up. You can have all of that. And just because we don't. I haven't seen you in three years.

[B]

I just. That's weird. I cannot believe it's been three years.

[A]

Feels like a week. It really, genuinely does.

[B]

Seriously.

[A]

Because that's connection. Like, true connection, whether that be romantic or friendship. It doesn't die just because maybe you're not talking every single second of the day, but when you have something real, time and distance won't stop that.

[B]

That's right. I love it. Love you. Love you. Thank you.

[A]

And thank you guys so much. Thank you for sitting with us. Thank you for hearing us. Just shoot the for a little and go down every lane. And thank you guys again for being with us. Until next time, thank you.