← The Sabrina Zohar Show
The Sabrina Zohar Show
190: Money & Dating: The Conversations You're Avoiding That Will Make or Break Your Relationship W/ The Tiger Sisters
01:03:35
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Jean Luo
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
Or let the app automatically move small amounts of cash. When you can afford it in a
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Jean Luo
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
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Sabrina Zohar
Start the 60 second savings challenge at
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Jean Luo
RocketMoney.com cancel that's RocketMoney.com cancel RocketMoney.com cancel
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Sabrina Zohar
who pays for the first date? How do you know how to split finances? When do you talk about money? It's the uncomfortable conversations that most of us don't really want to have. But today, that's exactly what we're going to do because we're going to go head on in to answer all the questions that you guys asked about. When do you talk about finances and dating and relationships? Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. You guys, we have two special guests today, not just one. I have Gene and Cherie, the Tiger sisters. I'm so excited. All right, guys, we're not going to spend any time on these intros. We're going to get right on into it. As always, if you need anything, we have a new quiz that is what type of lover are you? Quiz. You can join that and get some free dating advice via email. Join one of the courses. Don't forget to rate and review the show. Share it with a friend, Please leave a comment, let us know that you guys were here. And thank you, as always, for being here, because without you guys, we would not be here. And I am so, so grateful for you. All right, babes, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? My girls.
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Jean Luo
Hi.
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Sabrina Zohar
Hello.
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Sheree Brook Lu
Hey.
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Sabrina Zohar
Hey.
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Jean Luo
Oh, my God, you're incredible. It's so fun to see you live. Thanks, man.
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Sabrina Zohar
I'm like, a bit of a talking head, but I'm so excited. Okay, girls, before I don't even want to do your intro because it's not going to do you justice, could you please welcome yourselves to the show and introduce yourselves to the audience, because they need to know who you both are.
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Sheree Brook Lu
Hi, everyone. I'm Sheree Brook Lu.
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Jean Luo
I'm Jean.
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Sheree Brook Lu
And we're the Tiger Sisters.
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Jean Luo
We should rehearse that one.
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Sabrina Zohar
Life story.
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Jean Luo
Tell me more.
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Sabrina Zohar
Like, how did you guys get started? Like, what prompted the Tiger Sisters? Where did the real root of, like, you guys finding your voice and wanting to share that with the world?
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Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah, we're actual sisters. Seven years apart. I'm the younger sister, she's the older sister. And we've always had this dream of working together at some point in our lives. Our backgrounds are in the corporate world, so I used to work in tech. Jean used to work in finance on Wall street and also tech as well. So, like, we've always had an of. Like, it would be so amazing if we can do something together. And so about almost two years ago, I graduated from Stanford's business school, and it was, like, an amazing time because Jean was also thinking about the next step of her career, and we're like, should we do a podcast together? And so I've been creating content for the last couple of years, and Jean's always been behind the scenes, so this is her first time really being in front of the camera for Tiger Sisters Podcast. And it's been, like, an amazing, like, year and a half. Pushing, grinding, putting out Tiger Sisters and helping people and putting that content out there.
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Jean Luo
Oh, I love.
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Sabrina Zohar
It was a personal experience as well. Like, a lot of it. Dating, relationships, love. Like, what. Where did that come from? Because I think that's our audience. They know that world.
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Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah.
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Jean Luo
I mean, I know for me, I was sort of like, behind the scenes, like Sheree said, and sort of like, watching her build her influencer career and create all her content over the last five or six years. And for me, it was actually a huge decision to leave corporate, right? Because I had been working in corporate for 15 years at a super successful career, very lucrative, and I was like, I was ready to do something new. But it was really over the years, seeing all the responses and the feedback that Sheree's gotten to her content of people writing into her all the time being like, hey, like, I just wanted to let you know that you changed my life. Like, because of your content. I decided to end my relationship or I decided to move into product manager. I'd never heard of it before. I got this new job. I'm moving across the country. I have a new life now thanks to you. And she gets those messages all, all the time. So it was like me seeing that over the course of like five, six years and being like, wow, what she is doing, what you are doing is so deeply important and the world needs more of it, right? Like, the world needs our voices, the world needs our perspective. And so I was like, this is worth dedicating my life to. And so that's when I. I quit quite corporate and we started Tiger Sisters.
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Sabrina Zohar
Was that scary?
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Jean Luo
It was so freaking scary. It was so, so scary. Especially because we. Before that, I had never been on camera before. And, like, I am naturally a super private person. So, like, even in the five, six years when Sheree was doing her own content, she had never referred to me as her sister.
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Sheree Brook Lu
Like, to protect her identity. I don't know. And so she was always like my friend when I was like, I'm visiting my friend.
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Sabrina Zohar
Meanwhile, you're like, wait, wasn't she with her sister? You're like, no, no, no. Why do you think tech guy? Like, he was called tech guy. First off, I'm gonna be honest, I had no idea what the fuck he did. I didn't understand. I was like, sure, yeah, whatever that is in text. I was like, he's some tech guy. I mean, I came corporate, but, like, having a traditional job, you go in, you clog in, you clog out, you do your thing, doing your own. Like, I started a clothing company that buffered for me to be able to do my own thing. But that is terrifying for your nervous system to be like, all right, I have consistency. I have a paycheck. I have a career now I'm going to shift a 180 and do something completely different. How did you support yourself through that?
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Jean Luo
Well, I think a big part of it is the fact that Both of us had worked in corporate up until then. So, like, I put in my time. I was super diligent for 15 years. I saved up enough money so that we have been. And Sheree as well, and we've been bootstrapping Tiger Sisters this whole time. We've never taken any investment. Like, we've definitely had people come and be like, hey, like, let us invest in you. Like, we want to be a part of it. And we're like, nope, we're doing this on our own. And then also for the first year, we were very intentional on being like, we are not going to take any sponsorship money. Like, we need to work on Tiger Sisters content. We need to get it dialed. We need to prove to ourselves that we have product market fit. And so, like, literally the exact day, one year after our first episode, we had our first sponsor come.
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Sabrina Zohar
Congratulations. It's so funny because, like, when you build the audience, when you have something that is real, when you introduce sponsors, people are excited because they're like, yes, my girls are getting paid. Like, that's how it should be. Versus the opposite. When we see you're like, oh, wow, they just sold out and they're doing something. So I actually have a lot of respect for that and I think that's really admirable and also shows why you guys have success because you stayed true to yourself. Now, here's an off the cusp question, because I want to ask two people that have been in the corporate world, would you, to anybody listening, ever suggest dating a coworker or a boss?
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Sheree Brook Lu
Oh, my God.
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Sabrina Zohar
Because Ryan always says he's like, don't involve hr. What are your thoughts on that?
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Sheree Brook Lu
Those are two different questions. Because actually dating a boss, like, in the HR handbook is, like, not okay. Because there's a lot of different things at play. Whereas, like, in the chain of command, anyone who is your senior, your boss, your vp, there's like a power dynamic there that can really impact, like, your mental health, psychological health, and also, like, workplace safety. So my advice, like, don't do that. Like, try not to date your boss. There's a lot more complexities involved at work. And, like, also in your head, I would say dating a co worker who's, like, not on your, like, specific team. I've seen success stories. However, I have dated someone at work before and it hasn't gone well.
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Sabrina Zohar
It rarely does.
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Sheree Brook Lu
It rarely does because, like, if things don't work out, it just gets awkward. And in my experience, I just have, like, anxiety. Like, am I showing up to work at the same time as this person. I have to see them in the lobby, we're riding the elevator up together, or I see them in the cafe. It's just, like, unnecessary for me for anxiety. And people say, like, don't where you eat.
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Sabrina Zohar
Oh, yeah, don't do it.
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Jean Luo
Right.
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Sheree Brook Lu
That's what they say.
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Sabrina Zohar
Yeah.
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Sheree Brook Lu
And so I would not recommend it, but it has worked out for some of my friends. So if you're, like, really sure about it and you're both, like, adults about it, it can work. Not me. In my early 20s, though.
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Sabrina Zohar
Yeah, I was gonna say. Do you agree?
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Jean Luo
Yeah, I would say proceed with caution. I think it can be so exciting. It can feel amazing. You can see them all the time. You feel like everything's, like, clicking until. Until it doesn't. Right. Until it's not.
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Sheree Brook Lu
It's great.
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Jean Luo
Until it's not. That's what I'll say.
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Sabrina Zohar
It sounds fun and sexy and mysterious, especially because you're like, did they, like, give me an eye on the way to the bathroom? Did they touch my arm? Until I get the messages of, like, I have to see this person now. I don't know what to do. I'm turning to stone when they come around. It's like. Usually what I hear a lot as well is the, like making meaning when there's not a lot of like, oh, well, they sat next to me at lunch. That means they like me, right? And it's like, no, no, no, no. They like you when they're obvious about it and they're very clear of like, hey, can I. Can I kiss you? Can I hold your hand? Like, then I would say, oh, oh. I think this person's interested in me prior to that happening. I think we conflate a lot, especially in the work environment, because, like, are they being nice? Are they being polite? To your point, do I have to work with them? Because I am not a fan personally of. Don't you what you eat? Precisely. But also being cognizant and aware that your career is your safety. Right. That's money, finances. Money is rooted in safety. If I'm going to mess with my safety now and then I have to go, oh, I'm to find another job. In this economy, it's not that easy. You can't just go online now and find something to replace. So thank you guys for appeasing me because I wanted to segue off of that because you guys know that world. You've been in that world.
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Jean Luo
It's a great question. I think a lot of times, though, people have to make their own mistakes. It's hard to when you're in it, it's hard to like not get your. Let yourself get sucked in.
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Sabrina Zohar
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Sheree Brook Lu
too close and you really don't want to mess with that because of what you said. And I will say there is something psychological happening when you're at the office. Especially if you have a very demanding job job and you spend so much time at the office, it's the pro. Sometimes it is the proximity. And like you have to ask yourself like hold up, if we weren't working together or weren't in the same space together all the freaking time, would I still be attracted to this person? Would I want to date them if I didn't have this like, pressure cooker of an environment and was spending that much time with them.
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Jean Luo
I like those questions for, like, especially really demanding jobs. It's a form of trauma bonding. Right. Like, the person you're there with all the time that you're solving problems together, you're trying to like, it's like you guys against the world, especially when you're on the same team, that can be something that you're sort of mistaking for like a romantic bond that's blooming.
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Sabrina Zohar
Especially when you're feeling not seen at home and you're like, oh, this person gets me. We're going through the same stress. We have commonalities. And it's like, maybe the commonalities that you just work at the same place.
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Jean Luo
Right.
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Sabrina Zohar
Like, maybe that's it. And I think, to your point, I have personally never been a fan. I always say if you're going to date somebody that you work with, either be okay if it doesn't work out and being conscious of that, or be okay getting a new job. Because if you're like, I don't give a shit, like, caution to the wind, I'll find another job. Do whatever you want. But if this means a lot to you, have you ever had. You said you've seen success with it?
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Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah, I mean, I've just seen people who. Or, like, heard stories at the past company I was at, and I've, like, seen them in person. But, like, they met, they were at the same company, now they have children together, they're happy. But then usually one person ends up leaving.
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Sabrina Zohar
Yes.
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Sheree Brook Lu
And, like, just like to make it work professionally, you know, they're both like, climbing a ladder. And, like, people go to different places.
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Jean Luo
Yeah. Or I feel like I've seen success where people have gotten together after one person leaves.
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Sabrina Zohar
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you met there and then it's like, to your point, if we had something outside of the office, great, then we can continue this relationship, which kind of even segues into the meat and potatoes that I. I always talk about this, and I think it's important, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts when I say it. I always advise everyone, like, date like you're the founder of a company now. You don't actually have to be the founder of a company to understand what I'm saying. But I look at it as if I'm dating, like, the founder of the company and I'm hiring for my CEO. Am I just going to give that to somebody after one good meeting?
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Jean Luo
Like, no.
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Sabrina Zohar
Would you. Would you handle The. To your castle. What you've spent your entire life building to someone you had one conversation with or one coffee or a quick dinner, maybe you hooked up. Like, it doesn't really matter any of the variables. It's not about the shame around that. I would be curious, when you hear that, like, date, like, the founder of your company, what comes to mind for both of you guys? Each one.
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Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah, I would say. I mean, like, exactly as you said. We have such a high bar when it comes to our business, our career, especially if that's something that, you know, you've dedicated your life to. Like, why don't we have the same high bar in our love lives? And so there's this phrase that I absolutely love. We learned it in business school, and you hear it all the time. It is hire slow, fire, fast. And I feel like that's, like, applied to, you know, your career. And when you're managing people and hiring people, like, we need to apply that concept to our life, because if we're hiring too quickly, it's so easy to, like, fall into the chemistry of things like, oh, wait, like, they have a really good personality. You're hired. I don't think so. It's also really hard, once someone's in your life to then, know, disentangle.
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Sabrina Zohar
Yeah.
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Jean Luo
I love that analogy, because I think it's very true in both corporate and, like, work life, as well as your love life. Because once you sort of, like, build a lot of systems with that person, then it's really hard to dismantle them. Right. Like, once you're used to them being, oh, this is the person I default see every Saturday. I see them every Sunday. Then I see them every Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday. Like, those are things that. It's very painful, you. And takes a lot of work to put yourself in a new state.
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Sabrina Zohar
Like, you said, slow. Slow is the word here as far as building a relationship. I mean, listen, am I guilty of that? Of course. Right? I've. I've moved really fast. You meet somebody and you're like, oh, everything's great. It's all gonna be fine. I'm. Do you guys watch 90 Day Fiance?
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Jean Luo
No.
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Sabrina Zohar
But I know.
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Sheree Brook Lu
But I know the concept.
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Sabrina Zohar
I know the concept. So it's just my trash. That's fine.
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Jean Luo
But I do watch a lot of reality tv.
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Sabrina Zohar
Okay. So, y'. All, you can relate to what I'm gonna say. There's always the couples that, like, I text this person every day, and we have the phone calls and the FaceTime, and then you see them in person and, like, they're rude or they shut them down and they're like, I'm so confused, and I don't get it. But you were so great on the phone. Why is this person here? It's like, because until I see you triggered, and not just triggered, that someone cuts you off on the road. I'm talking. It's funny. I saw a quote today that was actually really beautiful, and the guy said, I don't really care how you treat strangers. Of course that's important. You know what? I care about how you treat me in private, because that's gonna tell me the type that you are. Of course, out in public, you could be grandiose and charming and treat the waiters really respectfully. Some people don't, and that's very obvious. But what I look for is really to understand how are you when we're alone versus how are you when we're out with other people? Because that's going to show me that consistency. And going slow allows us to do that and allows our nervous system to get ready to, like, acclimate. But I'm curious, have you ever had any personal experience with rushing into something? Did it work or not for you? Or is going slow in the name of the game? Because I'm a big go slow girl.
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Sheree Brook Lu
Oh, well, I think my default experience is rushing into things. Honestly, I am just. It's kind of my personality. I'm, like, very type A. Like, I like to. I think I'm a planner. But then, like, when your feelings get ahead of yourself, it's just so hard to put the brakes on things. And actually, it's like, slowing down is something that I've been working on for the last, like, three years. Honestly, going to therapy, talking about things. Right. It's just like, how can we slow down to make sure that we feel good about the decisions that we're making before they're already made? And I'm not saying you have to be calculated or, like, you know, anything like that, but, like, just slowing down. And slowing down could mean just sleeping on a text for a night, you know, before you send something, or, you know, just, like, taking a beat. Like, it doesn't have to mean, like, you know, we're waiting, like, weeks and weeks between things, but, like, slowing down a little bit to feel more confident in yourself and in your decisions while dating, I think is so underrated.
- [17:59]
Jean Luo
Yeah. I think for me, similarly, I rush into things because I'm very romantic as a person. Like, I know myself. I'm very much like a Lover girl. And so one thing I've been trying to work on that I think is another, like, sort of founder hiring CEO analogy that works is that when you hire someone, you give them case studies, right? You don't just ask them, like, oh, how do you. How do you deal with a difficult situation? Like, how do you, you know, how do you work when there's a workplace conflict or something? You actually give them, like, problems for them to work through and be like, come back to me on how you would do, how you would do this. Like, this actual problem set. So that's something that I think can really also apply in dating, is to actually have, like you said, have these experiences with the person. And it's not that you're testing them, but you're observing, right? Like, you are seeing how does this person react in this situation that we're in together. That is maybe like a little bit difficult, right? Is maybe a little bit uncomfortable. Are they sort of taking things out on the other person or are they taking accountability and, like, acting in a way that you would feel proud of and then that you would act yourself?
- [19:07]
Sabrina Zohar
Quote, I love is that the people that you date are a reflection of how much you love yourself. Because if I'm going to be in a relationship with a liability or somebody that would be embarrassing, then I need to look at what am I willing to allow. What is the behavior that I think is acceptable? How am I showing up and how are they showing up? And, you know, to your point, you can't see that unless you slow down. Even something as simple as when my brother first moved to LA 10 years ago, he was at a coffee shop and he was running around and he was going, this guy went, well, man, slow down. What's the rush? And he was like. My initial reaction was like, what do you mean? And he's like, actually, you're right. Like, what is the rush? And I've. Even since moving here, I've started to adopt this. Like, I need to slow down in life because our nervous system needs that when you're anxious. Urgency. Urgency. That's anxiety. That's immobilized energy that's coming out in different ways, which then gets projected onto the people we get. And I don't know about you guys, but I know. I mean, I'm in a relationship now, but when I dated, I could feel that. You could feel when somebody is coming in at 100 and you're like, whoa, hey, dude, you don't know my normal name. You don't even know what I'M allergic to. But yet you want to be with me. It feels really overwhelming. Have you guys ever had that, too?
- [20:10]
Sheree Brook Lu
Love bombing?
- [20:11]
Sabrina Zohar
Yeah.
- [20:12]
Sheree Brook Lu
Oh, yeah. And I. And I've fallen for it many, many times.
- [20:16]
Sabrina Zohar
Right?
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Sheree Brook Lu
It's intoxicating. It is, yeah. It's really intoxicating. I feel like that's like kind of what people say, like falling head over heels, you know?
- [20:24]
Sabrina Zohar
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- [21:32]
Sheree Brook Lu
there's something really beautiful in slowing down because then you get to be more in the driver's seat, right? Rather than reacting and being, like, completely responsive to the love bombing, you can, like, slow down and, like, ask yourself, like, do I like what's going on here? You know, and it kind of puts you in a position where you can, I mean, like, take more agency in the relationship. So I feel like instead of, like, accepting the love bombing, which I've definitely done in the past and, like, welcomed it, I'm more like, kind of collecting data points, you know, like a little bit like a scientist where, like, you kind of zoom out and you're like, okay, this is how they reacted when I said this, or this is how they, you know, treat their family and friends. It's like, how do I feel about that? You know? And like asking yourself like is that acceptable and do I want that in my life?
- [22:23]
Sabrina Zohar
Before I get to my other questions, I want to ask you guys. Intimidated. Being intimidated by the person that you date. Because a strong women I think and it doesn't. Again anybody listening, we're talking in gender norms. Because you have three women sitting here, please feel free to put that into whatever pronoun that you feel is appropriate. But as. As a woman myself, I have actually had somebody. I remember I. Because I have a clothing line outside of this software where software.com and I remember I. It was like a matched with a guy we didn't even go out and he was wrote me saying by the way, I should let you incredibly intimidated by you and your success. And I remember just being like oh please don't say that. Like just. I mean if you are great, I wish you all the best. But don't that makes then me feel uncomfortable because I'm like what pedestal are you putting me on? Who do you think I am? But I wanted to get your thoughts on that. When you're dating somebody, whether it even be personal experience or you've seen it that you're intimidated by because of their success. Which happens quite often.
- [23:17]
Jean Luo
Yeah. So this is really interesting. I was dating someone recently who said that to me and I was surprised a little bit because this is someone who was super successful in his own right. So I was like that's kind of, that's kind of weird that he would say that to me. But it wasn't. It was kind of an ick. It was like I appreciated that he was being honest and I appreciated the. The sort of like discourse about it. But I was like I want to be with someone who I deeply respect and vice versa. Right. That's the difference. I think it's a matter of respect versus feeling intimidated by. Like if you're intimidated by me, then you're not really putting yourself on the same level as me. Right. Like I want someone who is a partner to me. You don't have to excel and be like amazing in the same ways that I. I am and I don't have to be amazing in the same ways that you are. But I want someone who we can recognize each other's success and amazing qualities and be able to sort of build together as opposed to coming at it from the perspective of like, oh, I'm intimidated by.
- [24:15]
Sabrina Zohar
By your attributes and maybe we can even. I think that's such a great point to be able to remove it and not fuse it to the person. Maybe they can say, hey, your success is intimid me because you're not you, but like, you're 22, right, and you're a millionaire. You can be like, wow, that is really wild. But see, I think I like the way you put it because then what I would say was, I respect that person. I respect their drive and their hustle. I think that's really beautiful. And I think, I mean, I don't know if you guys have ever had this, like, as me being a founder. You're a founder now too, right? You're not working for somebody else. I think that there's this misconception when you're dating that like, either it's all or nothing, right? If you're a founder, then it's like, oh, you have no time for a relationship and you have none of that. And I actually am a big proponent of. I do believe you can have it all. But I'm curious, how do you believe you can have it all? Like, what do those boundaries look like even in your own life? Doesn't have to be super personal, but to be able to balance between, yes, I'm running a company, building an empire, but I still have space for you. And if you want to be part of this, you're welcomed in. But I'm not going to change that dynamic or sacrifice the life that I'm building to make you more comfortable.
- [25:13]
Sheree Brook Lu
I think it's first understanding yourself and like, what your priorities are and knowing, you know, like, this is where work is, this is where I have time for like love and romance and dating. And this is the time I need for myself to recharge and, and take care of myself and go to the gym. So I think before even communicating with someone else, like better understanding yourself and what your own priorities are. And then I think the next step is making sure that you're, you know, with someone or like dating someone with the filter in mind that like, are we compatible? Like, do you understand my priorities? Do I understand what your. Do you even know what your priorities are? And you know, are they speaking with one another? And it's not that, like we have to have the same priorities. Like, maybe work is my number one and like, like recharging, going to the gym, self care is their number. But like, do we have the same priority for where our love is? You know, because if there's a really big disconnect, like, you know, love is my number one priority and then love is your number, like 10 priority, then we're not going to be spending, you know, the Same amount of headspace, the same same amount of physical time together. It's like completely mismatched. But if like love is both our number 10 priority or both our number three priority, there's more of a match there in terms of compatibility.
- [26:26]
Sabrina Zohar
I love that. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Yeah, I mean as somebody I work with my partner, so that has its own amalgamation of things. But when we started, I had to be a hundred percent transparent of like I love you, I love our relationship, but the career is my number one right now. Because without the career, neither one of us have a. We don't have a job, we don't get the home in this life that we built. That doesn't mean that the relationship doesn't also matter, but it means that at 6am when I get an email, yeah, I'm answering it at 10 o' clock at night when the file hasn't uploaded. No, you don't get to just go to bed. That means we're in the garage make that's where our studio is, making sure that everything is done. And I think for some people, like I know Ryan and I specifically when we first started and he's first started working with me, that was hard. You guys know when you come from a strategic, you know, your background to now, what do you mean? I have to use different parts of my brain all of a sudden. Like what are you creative? It's like what are you talking about? It takes something. And I think there's nothing right or wrong. Like I don't think that. I think everybody plays a part. If you don't work for someone, then how do we have business owners? But I think it's also that if you're going to be in a relationship with somebody who is self employed, there's just a different understanding of what that looks or like a high, high CEO or somebody that is traveling constantly. I think that there is an element of reality that we need to face that maybe that's not for everybody.
- [27:37]
Jean Luo
Yeah, I feel like you did a really good job of exemplifying the. There's no right answer. Right. There's no like one formula of how much everyone needs to prioritize love in their life. It's just you need to be on the same page about it. You just need to be aligned, that's all.
- [27:50]
Sabrina Zohar
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about some things to be in alignment with because I have some questions for you guys about. We've broken it up into like early dating relationship and then into the marriage to stage. But I wanted to talk about the hot takes and all the questions. These were questions that people wrote in. So my first. And like I said, whoever wants to answer, who pays for the first date? Oh man, the guy. So let me.
- [28:10]
Jean Luo
Heterosexual. In a heterosexual situation.
- [28:13]
Sabrina Zohar
Yes, I was going to say in heterosexual. And what's the appropriate way to handle it as the woman? What do you think?
- [28:18]
Jean Luo
I. I have a pretty hot take on this.
- [28:19]
Sabrina Zohar
Please, I would love to hear it.
- [28:21]
Jean Luo
Or at least I think it's hot. I think that I have. Am so far feminist that I have come full circle to being a little bit more traditional now. I don't know how it's happened. Is this like ouroboro situation. But I think the fact that we live in a patriarchy where a lot of expectations are put upon women to show up in life a certain way, to show up on a date in a certain way, it's. It's only like equivalent and fair and putting in the same amount of effort for a man to pay on a first date.
- [28:51]
Sabrina Zohar
I think first date is appropriate for the person I look at as. And if we're looking same sex relationships, then I would say the person at ass, you know, like. Because if it's two men, two women, two. They. I don't, I really don't care about the pronoun. But whoever it is, if they don't identify in the he, she way, I think whoever asked would be a good thing. Do you, what do you think about like the reach for the wallet on the date? Do we just not even try that?
- [29:12]
Jean Luo
I don't do it anymore.
- [29:13]
Sheree Brook Lu
I don't do that. I don't do that anymore.
- [29:16]
Sabrina Zohar
I used to, I think in my.
- [29:17]
Sheree Brook Lu
I think I used to as well. Oh.
- [29:18]
Sabrina Zohar
Oh, you got. Oh, thank you so much. Now I just sit there and it's
- [29:21]
Jean Luo
like, ironically, it was back when I was lying. Less fully financially independent. Now that I'm fully financially independent, I'm like, I don't need to make that gesture anymore. Like, of course I can pay for this meal. I could pay for this meal and a thousand other meals. But like, that's not the point of this. Right? The point of this, this interaction is that you asked me out on a date. You are trying to make a gesture of your, your interest, your commitment, your, you know, your potential future commitment. And that is part of this sort of song and dance that we're doing.
- [29:52]
Sabrina Zohar
Okay, so then once we're past the first date, talk to me. How do we. Because this was a question a ton of people asked if they're making more money or if I'm making significantly more, you know, Like, I remember I've. I've talked about this on the show. My. My. My folks know about the conventionally handsome guy. We'll just call him that. God, I wonder if one day he's gonna know. He. I called him that, so I'm sure he's gotta know. But he made. This was when I was broke, as a joke, Like, I was barely affording even, like, basic groceries. I couldn't even afford. Let it go alone, going on a date. And he took me to this restaurant, and I remember even saying, like, please don't take me there. It's like 500 do for the two of us to go to dinner. He insisted. He insisted. And I kept being like, I'm not comfortable with this because I knew I could not give back. And it was very clear, like, I don't have the resources to go to that restaurant. He, of course, took care of it. But after I bought. I took care of the valet. It was 10 bucks. And that was my way of being like, hey, you're. I wanted to make sure that you understand that I am trying to build a partnership. I don't have that, but I do have this to offer. And I'm curious what your thoughts are. Whether it doesn't matter who in the relationship makes the most money. How do you handle that dynamic?
- [30:53]
Sheree Brook Lu
Well, it's something that Jean and I have talked about on our podcast because we talk about, like, money, power, and love. And this, like, beautifully combines all three of them together. And I think it has to do with, like, what feels equitable in the sense of if the person who's making the most money, and this actually comes across in, like, when you're living together and you move in together, like, the person who's making, you know, 70% more of the income should be.
- [31:17]
Jean Luo
Or.
- [31:17]
Sheree Brook Lu
Or making more income should be paying that much in rent. I think when it comes to, like, going on dates, like, I really like the, like, showing the. The gesture. Like, if someone's taking care of the bill, like, okay, I'll get the dessert. We'll go out for, like, salt and straw after all. I'll go to the dessert. Or, like, if we're going out for a movie, like, you'll cover the tickets, I'll get the snacks. I feel like there is nice gestures to show that, like, I'm trying to contribute in a way that I can, man.
- [31:47]
Sabrina Zohar
That's why I don't like the princess treatment stuff. Don't get me wrong. I want to be treated well. But I see when I hear princess treatment, what I hear is one like, let's see, let's. Let's like unravel this for a second. Princess, what does that imply? My father did it and I got the crown because of who my father is. Right? Just. Even we think about a princess, she doesn't do anything to earn that crown. She is just there. I want to be treated like an equal. I don't want to be treated as if I'm in this castle and that everybody has to dote on me and do my own thing. And to me, I feel like this main character energy type thing. And I'm like, yeah, you're the main character in your movie. You ain't to me, right? Like, in my life, you're just somebody I met on a nap. To you, you're God's gift and you're the end all be all. I don't believe that. Like, you'll never find better than me. It's like, no, I probably will. I'll probably find someone that's better for me than that attitude. But I wanted to get your thoughts on that of like this. I deserve to be treated like a princess, and they should be taking care of everything, and I'm showing up and I shouldn't have to do anything. What type of relationship is that leading us to?
- [32:45]
Jean Luo
Yeah, I think from. From the way you describe it, I feel like the reason you don't like it is become. It comes from this place of this assumption that the woman, the princess in the situation isn't really bringing that much else to the table. Right? Like, you're kind of just showing up as you are, and you're like, well, just because I am in this heterosexual relationship, the woman, that means I should be treated in this way. And I have all these expectations. I think that doesn't work because it has to be both people are bringing things to the table, right? Like, it can be in a very heteronormative way where it's like, very traditional, where the man is the one that takes care of the bill, the woman is the one that takes care of, I guess, household activities. There's kind of this return to the. The trad wife movement we've seen that can work if both people, again, are aligned and both people are bought into that philosophy. But it doesn't work when I think, like, it's this misalignment of what people are bringing to the table.
- [33:37]
Sabrina Zohar
Table, yeah, that's an entitlement, right? Of, like, well, I'm here. My presence is your president. It's like, listen, Kanye, all right? Like, that's. You're here because we're both here to get to know each other. And I'm big on that. That's why I'm big on reciprocity. And it doesn't have to mean that reciprocity looks like, let's go on the norms. I make more money. I'm the one in the household that makes the most. I'm the talent. I'm the one that is. And my partner works for the company. That doesn't mean he's also not making money. But that's a harsh reality. That I'm the one that's in charge of the financial structure, but that we
- [34:05]
Sheree Brook Lu
talk all the time.
- [34:06]
Sabrina Zohar
We have wildly open conversations which we're gonna get to. But I think for me, I see it as, are we both in a partnership or are you my parent? And that's where I think the princess thing starts to teeter. And I want everybody to be treated with respect, with kindness, with love in the way that they deserve. But I also think that we have to create the environment that that does that. And it's not just because we exist. This episode is sponsored by Acorns. You guys know how I talk about avoidance patterns on the show all the time, right? Money was one of mine. I kept telling myself, I'll figure it out when I. And that kept me stuck. But you don't need to have it all figured out. You just need to start. And that's why I love Acorns so much. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going. Tomorrow. You sign up in minutes. Start automatically investing your spare money. Even spare change, baby. It starts with something and their potential screen shows you the power of compounding over time. It's all in one. It grows with you and it makes the whole thing feel doable. You can sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus. Investment Jo the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com zohar or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customer accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or present the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures acorns.com Zohar yeah, I
- [35:36]
Jean Luo
think this is kind of the opposite of what you were saying about, you know, someone saying, hey, I feel intimidated by you. Once again, it's because you're not on the same level, right? You're not, you're not recognizing each other's sort of benefits that you're bringing to the relationship.
- [35:49]
Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah, I feel like we see a lot of like, TikToks and Instagrams now that are like, we must demand princess treatment. And like, that's like an. It's, it's fine on like, TikTok. But then when you bring it to reality, I'm like, that's not how things work. Especially if you want to be in a very, like, in a very, like, respected relationship where you respect, admire and adore your partner and they respect, adore and admire you back. And so I feel like we need to move away from the princess treatment because in reality, like, I don't want to. I mean, of course we want to be treated nicely, but like, I think the princess treatment, it's kind of overdone and it's not realistic.
- [36:24]
Sabrina Zohar
To your point, it's a 30 second sound clip, right? It's the, it's the bumper stickers, it's the slogans. It's 140 characters or less. For me to describe it in very nuanced, complex human experience, like relationships. Because I don't. I'm not a princess in anything, including my own household. Right. Like, childhood didn't matter. I didn't get to experience that. That doesn't mean I don't want to. But I have a partner that treats me so beautifully. But what that means is, like, when I'm sick, he makes me soup. What that means is when I have a headache, he shuts the lights off for me. He cares about me in other ways that aren't just like, let me dote onto you. And I think that's really where we get. Because I understand. I think there's a lot of people listening that are very financially independent. And we're trying to find that balance. I think all of us are trying to find the balance of how do you exert and show I can take care of myself, but then how do you let somebody else also take care of you? And I'm curious, what have you found in that balance, even just in life of being able to say, I got this, but then stepping back and saying, actually, no, they let them take care of it. We're not going to go further into that. I'm just going to use that as a I'm not fan. But we'll go into it anyways. Go back to that. What do you, how do you, like, balance that?
- [37:27]
Sheree Brook Lu
Personally, I feel like the first thing is making sure that you feel empowered in your life. It's like you have to have your own finances in order and be financially.
- [37:35]
Jean Luo
I.
- [37:35]
Sheree Brook Lu
We think it's so important for women to be financially independent.
- [37:38]
Jean Luo
Big drum beat on Tiger sisters. We talk about this all the time.
- [37:41]
Sheree Brook Lu
I mean, we, we also come from a household where it's just like we were raised by our single mom who like, like, we, we saw firsthand how important it is to be financial independence independent, financially independent, so that you can rely on yourself and like, you don't have to stay in a bad situation. So, like, I think so you have.
- [37:56]
Jean Luo
Number one thing is to have agency in your own life. The number one way to do that, especially as a woman, is to have financial independence.
- [38:03]
Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah. And I think because of that, you feel so empowered that, like, I can do things on my own. Like Jean said, like, I can afford this date. Like, like, of course I can afford it. I, I take myself on dates. But it's then like stepping back and letting the other person show you, you their interest and, you know, just, I guess let them show how into you they are. But like, the first thing is like, making sure that you have your bag
- [38:27]
Sabrina Zohar
first at the agency point. That's a huge. It's being able to access choice. Because I came from the household of. My grandmother was not allowed to work. Right. She was in Egypt in 1955. There was no you. You didn't get an education. You did what you were told. And you. And she had my mom and she had kids. And all of my life when my grandma, up until she passed was, please get your education. Don't let anyone silence you. Make your own money. Even in my own household, my mom couldn't leave because my father controlled everything. She left her career to be the mother. And she says to this day, I don't regret any of it. She's like, but you saw what that did. Now I don't want to project that onto everybody else being like, everyone's going to do this. But man, I couldn't agree more that having your own. Because then what you're saying is, I choose to have you in my life and when that choice is done, I make other choices.
- [39:12]
Jean Luo
Yes. And I think that people forget that we as women, women, we weren't even allowed to have our own bank accounts until the 70s, right. Like, for the schools that we went to for undergrad. They didn't even accept women until the late 70s, some into the 80s, actually, which is, like, within our shared memory as a society.
- [39:32]
Sabrina Zohar
Right.
- [39:32]
Jean Luo
But it's something that we. We seem to have just, like, move, like, breezed past it so quickly. So I think a lot of times I. I feel this almost, like, weird I have to. To, like, live the fullest life I possibly can and be. And, like, take advantage of the fact that we, for the very first time in our lives, live in this society where we can be independent as women. We can live our own lives. We don't need a man to open a bank account. We don't need a man in order to survive and thrive. So I think it's this very sort of difficult balance to, like, live fully in that, but then also be like, well, but I can also let someone take care of. Care of me sometimes. Right. Like, it's not something. It's not this, like, battle cry that I have to, like, use my life as a. As a proof point that I can be an independent woman. So I think that's something that honestly, like, I'm still, like, working through how I. How I kind of, like, feel about that.
- [40:25]
Sabrina Zohar
And I hope that for any of the men that are listening, we have our dudes that they can even just see the other side of it of, like, what. What women do have to go through when we are the head of the household. Like, I've got a lot of women that listen. They're like, hey, man, I been single for. I'm in my 30s now, 40s, 50s. It doesn't matter. Like, I'm anywhere in the. The. The. The. The timeline. I've been taking care of myself. I've been the head of the household. I've been sleeping alone. I've been paying my bills. Like, you're not gonna. With my piece. And if I'm gonna let you in, that's because you're adding to your additive. You're not subtracting. And I think that's a big thing is to your point, we haven't. We don't need anybody. But wanting them is a different energy. And to me, that's the power. And I would say say this for the men that are successful and driven and making a lot of money, I understand what they're going through as well. I understand when you have. Wherever the sex is, right, it doesn't really matter. But I understand having a partner that either Sees you as a meal ticket or sees you as what you can do for them. And I think that's where boundaries are so important because I don't care what side of the coin that you're on in the relationship or where you are, but it's so important to have boundaries around. Hey, like one of my, one of my clients, for instance, he's very. Running a multi million dollar business, the founder of it, very successful, just bought his house and he's dating this girl. And there's a lot of assumptions, you know, the very like, oh, well, it's gonna cost me this much to do it. Can you do it? And he had to explain to her, he was like, listen, I need you to know this is not about the money. It's not. Don't worry, right? Like you said, I can pay for that. It's the principle. He was like, there's now becoming this assumption that I have to pay for all the trips and I have to take care of everything and I pay for all the food. And he was like, like, there isn't anything that you're even. I think she, like, did one thing once and he was like, in six months that we've been dating, you paid for one thing. And I think that's also not feeling taken in, like, for granted is because I'm very giving. It doesn't matter what side on the coin you're on. It's so important to set boundaries with people. Otherwise. Yeah. Next thing you know, you're taking care of everybody but yourself.
- [42:18]
Sheree Brook Lu
I think to that point too. I'm glad your, your friend said something. It's all about the communication. And I think having that sooner rather than later so that like, you know, if you don't talk about it until like, I don't know, three months in, then like, a lot of resentment can build from either side where you feel like you're taking on like this much responsibility and that person is not reciprocating in some way. I think it's all about communicating and being like, hey, like you said for that date, like, I'm not able to. To pay for that. And then it was completely his prerogative to like, want to still go on that on that date and take you out. And so I think it's. Think it's just a communication. I think that can also happen on like, vacations too. It's like, you want to stay at this, like, you know, 800 a night hotel that's like, not in my budget. Like, maybe I can help contribute to part of It. But like, you know, that entire, that night, like, it's a lot of money. And so I think just having those open and honest conversations, which can feel so awkward at first, I think talking about money and a lot of people's families is just like really taboo. So people don't have the script or even like, like the know how of, like how to start those conversations.
- [43:19]
Jean Luo
Yeah, I think it's a really important part of like the discovery phase of a relationship because you can have a man that's just like your client who's like, hey, you know what? I'm not comfortable being your like cash cow and just paying for everything. Or you can have a guy who's like, I would never let you pay for a single thing. Like, that is a blight upon my name. That's a blight upon my family. Like, I would be mortified. And you can have a woman who expects the man to pay for everything or you can have a woman. Some of my friends are like this. They're like, I would never let a couple guy. I have to split it because that is where I feel comfortable, right? Like, that is where I get my power from in my com. My comfort level. So it's just like people are kind of. It's a spectrum. And so like, unless you have these conversations which can be awkward, you're not going to really have like a successful relationship.
- [44:00]
Sabrina Zohar
Was. The funny thing is, yeah, he didn't want to. He was like, oh, I'm. I can start to see the resentment. And I was like, if you don't talk to, if you don't have a conversation with this person. I was like, first of all, that's not fair to her or you. That's not fair to any. Like, this poor girl has no idea. She thinks that you're just being a dick. She just thinks that you're being cheap and like you're not expressing to her the issue. So which brings me round right? When we're talking about now we're. Now we're past, right, the early stages of dating. Now we're dating somebody. When do you think it's appropriate to start talking about debt or how much money, right? Like, when do you start getting into the nitty gritties of like, I have money saved or I don't like. Because having a partner that's financially stable is incredibly important or at least fiscally responsible. Unlike a client of mine this morning that told me her girlfriend, she had to bail her out like 17 times and gave her for almost half a million dollars because over the course of five years, the person couldn't even balance their checkbook. And to me, as a, that's the extreme. But how do you even start to have these conversations and start to share that? I guess in your experience?
- [44:55]
Jean Luo
Yeah, I think it's as soon as you see the relationship going somewhere, as soon as you're like, oh wait, this could be something real, then you need to sort of do that accounting and be like, hey, where are you in your life? Where am I in my life? My life? And again, are we aligned and could see a, a relationship together that actually works based on where we both are and where we want to go? Right. Because it's not just like where you are today, it's what is your commitment to. And what do you see as a happy life? Right. Like if one person is like, I don't really care about money, I don't really care about experience, like fancy experiences, like, I just want to, to live like what is a really comfortable life for me, which is, doesn't really require that, that much, that many resources. That's a different story versus someone who is saying, hey, you know what, I'm starting out, I'm new in my career, but I have huge ambitions. I am so focused on being the best I can be and I, I plan to be super successful. Those are two different conversations as well. Those are two different people. And maybe depending on your personality, you can, can build a better future with one versus the other.
- [46:04]
Sabrina Zohar
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- [47:10]
Sheree Brook Lu
I think we need to be brave. I think we need to tackle these conversations and it doesn't have to be scary. And what I mean by that is that like, and I think in my experience, experience, like building myself up in my head, I'm like, oh, my God, we're gonna have to like, go straight into like, the bank accounts. I'm like, I have to show you my savings, you have to show me yours. Like, I think that's really scary. We don't have to do that. We can work at it like a little bit at a time and like, constantly communicate about like, what we see as a happy life together and like an example of that. And you can start off small and be like, you know, these are kind of like fun icebreakers. Before you, like go into, like, you know, you pull up your Chase bank account or your Marcus or whatever, and you're like, this is how much I've been selling savings. That's pretty scary. But before doing that, you can be like, you know, like, how did you grow up, like, talking about money with your family? Did you talk about money with your family? Like, was it awkward or was it something that you guys freely talked about? Like, I think those open ended questions start like the conversation so it doesn't have to be like this giant awkward thing in your head. Another question like, that's like, kind of fun. And be like, let's say we won the lottery tomorrow and we got like, you know, 50 grand. How would you spend that money? And so you're basically, like I said before, like, collecting data points on whether or not you're aligned with this person.
- [48:25]
Jean Luo
So, like, maybe they invest it, maybe
- [48:27]
Sheree Brook Lu
they go on a vacation, maybe they need to pay off their student loans. Like, I think you start understanding this person and how they think about finances and just understanding if it's compatible with how you think about finances.
- [48:38]
Jean Luo
I think that's another really good example of like a case study, right? You're saying, like, if this were to happen, happen, then what? Like, how would you, how would you live your life? How would I live my life? And are those two compatible? And I think the other thing I've been surprised by in my own experience, is that when you do delve into this relationship, sometimes the men surprise you, sometimes they really want to talk about it. And they get so much relief when you actually have the conversation. And I think if you bring it up, you might be surprised by how open they are like, I've had guys tell me, like, exactly how much money they have in their savings account. Exactly. I didn't even ask. But they're like, this is how much I have in my savings account. This is how much I have in equity. This is when my. The company I work for, when it IPOs. This is how much I'm going to have. This is my plan for passive investment. And this is the amount of money that I'm going to be able to live off of. I don't know if that works for you. Like, does that work for you? So I've been really pleasantly surprised before by how. How open and excited guys are to talk about this conversation. When it comes up, I get excited
- [49:43]
Sabrina Zohar
to talk about my credit score. I'm like, it's an 8 15, by the way.
- [49:46]
Sheree Brook Lu
Damn, that's good.
- [49:48]
Sabrina Zohar
Busted my ass, but that's it. I'm like, I've got no debt. I pay my credit cards off on time because my partner and I align on that because if he didn't, I would go insane. Or like, I remember years ago, my brother was dating a girl and he paid like 700 for nine inch nail tickets. Like, that's his thing, right? Cool. And he, like, went all out, took her to dinner and all that. This. And she was so pissy at the show. And she's like, ah, but like, I can't believe we didn't go on this trip. And he was like, wait a minute, I took you on this? M. He was like, I see this as an experience is worth my money. And he was like, that for what? For us to go or. He was like, you want to buy a designer handbag? He's like, cool, that's your prerogative. But he was like, I'm going to spend it on this. It's a love language. It's a love language to understand. I'm a foodie, right. So I'm going to try every amazing restaurant. Okay, cool. I don't care about designer stuff. You do, right? Is that an alignment? Because to your point, if it doesn't align, I'd rather know now or I'd rather know you have how much student debt that you haven't even touched. And you are still 45 years away and you're still living with 17 roommates. And like, you know, but you drive a Porsche. Like, that's a very LA thing, you know, you're like, you've got a really nice car, but you have four roommates. And they're like, I'm confused. And you work at a store. I'm like, I'm confused by where the money's coming.
- [50:58]
Jean Luo
Now.
- [50:58]
Sabrina Zohar
I really want to understand as well, when we're talking about moving into together, what do you do when somebody owns the house? Like, do you pay towards the mortgage?
- [51:06]
Sheree Brook Lu
How do you feel?
- [51:07]
Sabrina Zohar
Cuz that is a weird conversation. Especially if you are like older, like later in life. Right. If you're in their 30s and you own and things like that, like, how do you start to divvy that up? What does that look like in the finance world?
- [51:18]
Sheree Brook Lu
I think it's all a conversation and what you feel comfortable with and what that person feels comfortable with. I've talked to a couple of friends and it's more just like understanding like what you're. Their comfort level is like, do they want to be in a relationship where they don't contribute anything, or do they feel most empowered when they have something to contribute to the relationship? Because money can be, you know, a tool for control. If like I live in your house and I'm not paying like for anything or any rent or like, you know, for the groceries or anything, there can be a power dynamic that comes out of that where you feel like, like you're living in someone else's world and not really empowered in your own. So that can be like living in their home or just kind of like the conversation we're having about like, who contributes what and when.
- [52:05]
Sabrina Zohar
Yeah.
- [52:05]
Jean Luo
I think the other part of it is just to go into the situation with eyes wide open. Right. So that's why it's important to make these decisions. Once you're past that sort of honeymoon lust phase where you're like, I would do anything for you and you're just like not seeing straight. These are the sorts of decisions that have to be made in like the cold, bright daylight. Yeah.
- [52:26]
Sabrina Zohar
With no makeup. You're just like, this is the unsexy part.
- [52:29]
Jean Luo
Yeah, yeah. Because a lot of that stuff, like I was saying, once you have these systems in place, they can be really hard to unwind. Right. And the moving in together, especially if there's a imbalance in terms of financial contribution, is something that is very hard to disentangle. It's like kind of the. Of those steps that it's. It's hard to go backwards because, you know, I have a, you know, I know some people, I have some girlfriends who have made that step and now they're like, well, I. I don't know if I want to be with this person anymore, but I feel responsible for their living situation. Like if I, if we were to break up, like, where are they going to live? Like, they don't really have any other option. So that's something that, that's a tough.
- [53:15]
Sabrina Zohar
I see it as. When I started my clothing line, I remember I had a business partner at the time, don't anymore. And you know why? Because we had a great strategy. We did. I remember before we started, he was like, I know you don't want to have this. And he was like, but we need to have this conversation. And he was like, when everything's great, let's figure out how we're getting out. So that when it happened, when he called me and said, I'm done, I was like, no worries. Sent over the paperwork. It. We knew exactly what needed to happen because we had outlined if one person doesn't want to do it, if we can't get the money, like, what are all of the worst case scenarios? It's not that I was preemptively striking for that, but I was ready that way. I knew when he called me and said, said I don't want to do this anymore. He got married, had kids, he was just moving on with his life. I already knew what I needed to do. Locked and loaded. But you know what? I also think what you guys are saying that I think is so important to hit on drive is also really important to have a mutual understanding. And I'll give you an example. I had a friend in college, when I went to college for like five minutes and she was with this person and she had all the drive in the world, like she was working 17 jobs, like doing her thing. And the guy she was dating didn't have any. Like he would work one job every six months, make enough money. He was fine to like sit around and do nothing all day. He just. And then they were going to move in together and she started having panic attacks because she was like, I don't want to take care of somebody. And she edited, rightfully so. And she explained it to the person and he was like, oh yeah, I could totally see that. Yeah, you're right. Like, I don't, I don't really care. Like I'm really cool where I'm at in life. And she just couldn't hit now I'm so glad she did that. Ended up like completely moving on with somebody that was so much more her speed and could build what she wanted. And he did too. But I think we don't really talk enough about an mutual drive because as women, like we are who want the moon the stars and the sun and then some. You got to be okay with somebody that's okay with that, that wants that as well or will support you. Like we always say, Ryan is the frame and I'm the picture. Right. You need to have the balance of having somebody that can go out and do what they need and the support system to have that at home. Otherwise, good luck. Yeah.
- [55:08]
Jean Luo
I think that drive is one of those very key values that, like Sheree was saying, it's really important to first understand yourself. Right. Like, it's something that you need to not only understand yourself, but it's almost. You need to admit things to yourself sometimes. Right. Sometimes I feel like for a long time I was like, oh, yeah, like I want to be successful, blah, blah, blah. But I never really admitted to myself to be like, that is super important. To be. That is one of the things that is most important in my life. Achievement and drive and success and making an impact with my life in the world. And if I'm not with someone who can either recognize that or align with that, that's just not going to work. So, yeah, to your point, you get
- [55:52]
Sabrina Zohar
bored or you get bored, you're like, nah, I'm not challenged. This doesn't feel fun. I want somebody that, like, really, I want someone that's helping me up the pedestal, not trying to take me down, down. Which then kind of leads me into, okay, so we know all of the finances, like, have the hard conversations. How do you feel about a prenuptial agreement?
- [56:07]
Sheree Brook Lu
I feel like everyone needs a prenup. Because if you don't have a prenup, there's. There's one already written for you by the government anyways. That is their underlying. So you should just be proactive and have that conversation with your partner. Kind of like how you did with your business. It's like, that was basically a prenup that you guys had.
- [56:27]
Sabrina Zohar
How do you feel when you hear women say. Say it was specifically women, I would say more than men, of like, well, then you don't trust me and you don't love me and you don't care about me.
- [56:36]
Jean Luo
No, I think it's. It's a matter of valuing yourself enough. Right. To be like, I bring enough inherent value to this relationship, and I see myself on the same equal ground as you, even if I don't bring the same amount of financial resources, or maybe it's vice versa. We are still on the same, same equal ground. And that's why we need to have an agreement of each other's value coming in. And what would happen if this were to, you know, dissolve.
- [57:05]
Sheree Brook Lu
Yeah.
- [57:05]
Sabrina Zohar
And I also think then we start to add in if there's kids involved, either from a previous marriage or you want to have kids. I look at it this way, why? How can I simplify?
- [57:16]
Sheree Brook Lu
Right.
- [57:16]
Sabrina Zohar
Like, how can I simplify what I'm doing in life? And that means having really uncomfortable conversations or grinding. And I have been clear, if I'm getting like, both of us have families that, well, you're going to inherit something. Right. Even if it's a trailer down the street or if it's a million dollars, it doesn't matter. You're going to inherit something from your family. I've been very clear. Like, I'm 35, you're almost 40. Right. Like, we have that many years of working and building and growing that I'm okay to say what we build when we're together. Absolutely, we have that. But if we're here for just that, then that's going to be an issue. But the minute I said that to Ryan, he was like, I don't care. You put whatever you want in front of me, I'll sign it. He's like, I want you. I don't care about what you call come with that to me shows. And like, I think that's really beautiful. Of course you can negotiate if you're marrying a bajillionaire. And you see, I had a friend that had that his ex married a like the wealthiest man in the town, like, by a long shot. And she signed a very stupid deal that she owed him money when they divorced. Yeah. And she's now like 50k in debt and has to take care of the get and everything because all of his
- [58:13]
Jean Luo
money was in a trust which is untouchable.
- [58:15]
Sabrina Zohar
Exactly. You. I was saying, you know, and that's where. Where it's dangerous because you're left after not only you heartbroken, not only you now divorcing, now financially, you don't even know what you're going to do.
- [58:26]
Jean Luo
Yeah, I think a lot of people, I'll say, especially women, don't want to have this conversation because they conflate this conversation with being like, it's not romantic. Right. Like, oh, this is somehow. It says something about our relationship that we are planning for a time when we might not be together anymore. But I think it's. It's very much like the opposite.
- [58:48]
Sabrina Zohar
It's.
- [58:48]
Jean Luo
If you are so in love that you can have this difficult conversation that is not romantic at all on its face. And you can come to a conclusion, then you are ready to build your life together. Like, if that's not a conversation that you can have together, I don't know if you should enter into a legal binding contract via the US Government of being together for the rest of your life lives.
- [59:11]
Sabrina Zohar
Don't involve hr, don't involve the government. Right. Don't involve things that you don't want involved in your personal life until you're ready. That's why I'm not married. I'll be fully transparent because I, I've gotten shade from people like, oh, you've been with your partner for three years and you're not married. I'm like, listen, girl, I'm not in your timeline, first of all. But second of all, I want to make 150 million percent that when I sign on the dotted line, I'm making a choice that aligns with where I want to be. Because there's a lot of changes. The world is influx. We don't know what's going to happen been. But once you involve that, like, I've heard of people getting married after five, six months and it's like, o, I hope it works.
- [59:44]
Jean Luo
Yeah. I mean, once you're married, you fall under a separate category according to the government. Right. And there are certain rules that either apply laws that apply to you or don't apply to you, and those laws can change. So you are opting to something that's like, very serious and governed by like, legislature. So you want to make sure that you are fully understanding that and you have some, some hand in setting those terms.
- [60:06]
Sabrina Zohar
I couldn't agree more. All right, girls, before we wrap up, I want to see you guys talk about power, love, anything. What is something that you want to leave everybody with that you talk about on the show that feels passionate and drives you? I'd love to hear what you guys are normally sharing on there so we can give our audience a little bit.
- [60:20]
Sheree Brook Lu
So on Tiger Sisters, we say we talk about money, power, and love. I recently graduated from Stanford's business school and Jean went to Harvard's business school. And it's like in these classrooms, you, you're talking to, like, the most incredible business leaders that are professors or lecturers. And actually something that they say that's actually stuck with me has nothing to do with business at all. But what they say is that who you marry is the most important decision of your life because the person that you're partnered with will give you the highest highs, will bring you up, or will drag you down. Especially if, like, you are, you know, really focused on your career and you need a lot of support in the other parts of your life. Life. And so I know we talk about money, power and love, but like all these things combined, like who you choose to marry, you know, you're, you're having like, I don't know, thousands of meals with this person. And I think oftentimes, you know, there can be relationships that are just for fun. But when we make that really important decision in our lives, it's something that takes a lot of thought. It affects your finances, it affects, you know, your day to day living, it affects your habits. So I think we need to be very structured in how we think about it. And that doesn't sound romantic. And it can be romantic, but like we're saying, like there is room for those conversations about the business of your relationship.
- [61:35]
Jean Luo
Yeah. And I would just double underline that because I think a lot of times people are like, they look at our backgrounds where, you know, we say we're your Wall street and Silicon Valley big sisters. We have business school backgrounds, we have business school, we have tech backgrounds. And they're like, why are you talking about love? Like, why is it money, power and love? But this is the exact reason why these are all, all sort of on equal footing for tiger sisters. And we talk about all three topics because it's such a big part of determining your entire life.
- [62:02]
Sabrina Zohar
I could not agree more. I think the single handed, most important decision that you'll make is who you surround yourself with. Because my grandma Lucy used to say, show me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are. And if you're surrounded by somebody, I wouldn't be here today. If I had a different partner, maybe I'd be somewhere, right? We don't know. But having a supportive partner who understands my goals, who is willing to have the hard conversations, is willing to, to look across me while I'm crying and snotting and having a panic attack that can just caress my hair and say, we're going to get through this together. Sometimes that is all you need. Because as a child I didn't have that. I didn't have that reconfirmation experience. I didn't have trust in men. I didn't believe that somebody could be there for me. And so I think that's a really beautiful way to leave off the episode. And I hope that everybody that's listening can hear and understand. It doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum. It doesn't matter how much money you make or don't make. It matters who you are and what you're going to do with your life. Because as a girl that had nothing. Not a. Not a name, not a petty to my name. Besides, no joke, maybe $1,000 my bank account at all times. To be able to create what I've created and turn into this version doesn't mean that I had. Nobody gave it to me. I created it. But I needed to have the right people around me to create it. Otherwise I never would be here.
- [63:03]
Jean Luo
Yeah, look what you've done. Look at everything you've built. And that's the other takeaway that we have is financial independence, especially for women. I think that is the most important thing you can strive towards and build towards and have a goal to towards in your lifetime.
- [63:16]
Sabrina Zohar
Yeah. Because you can share with your partner if you want. Yep. Or you can leave your partner if you want. Exactly.
- [63:21]
Sheree Brook Lu
There you go.
- [63:21]
Jean Luo
Then you have agency. You run your life.
- [63:24]
Sabrina Zohar
I love that. Thank you guys so much. Please share with everybody. Where can they find you? Plug the show socials. I will be in the Lincoln show notes, but still.
- [63:31]
Sheree Brook Lu
So you can find me on Instagram at Cherie Brook B R O O K E And then you can find Tiger Sisters podcast at Tiger Sisters podcast on Instagram.
- [63:41]
Sabrina Zohar
Yes.
- [63:41]
Jean Luo
And I'm at. Jean Lou J E A N L U O Underscore.
- [63:45]
Sabrina Zohar
Perfect. Guys, thank you so much for spending another week with us. Thank you guys for being here. Don't forget, rate review the show, share it with a friend. Let us know what you think and if we missed any questions, add them on in and maybe I'll see if the girls can pop into the comments one or twice. I'll get. I'll get their responses and add them in for you guys if we forgot anything. But guys, thank you as always. Until next time, babe. Bye. 2 Good Co Coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers. Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.