← The Sabrina Zohar Show
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- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
Focus features in Blumhouse Obsession When I
- [00:04]
Sabrina Zohar
have a crush on a guy no
- [00:05]
Commercial Narrator
one knows, be careful.
- [00:07]
Amir Levine
I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.
- [00:10]
Commercial Narrator
Who you wish for? Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten tomatoes.
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Sabrina Zohar
I love you so so so so much.
- [00:19]
Commercial Narrator
It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.
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Amir Levine
What kind of spills you put on her?
- [00:23]
Commercial Narrator
You have been warned. Obsession rated R under 17 animated without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in do play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows.com studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc are
- [01:01]
Sabrina Zohar
avoidance bad people or do they just shut down and are misunderstood? Are you doomed to be your attachment style for life? Like can you actually heal through the anxious attachment or are you just. That's it. You're always gonna feel like this. Well, today we have the author of Attached, Amir Levine in the studio to talk about all those questions and more. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back my babes. We've got such a special episode. Amir Levine is such an incredible human and he is the author of Attached and his new book called Secure. And Amir Levine's book attached started this massive conversation about attachment styles. Anxious, avoidant, disorganized. Are they an asshole? Do they just not like me? All of those questions answered today. And guys, I'm so excited. As always, thank you so much for being here. Please don't forget to rate and review the show. Snag Amir's book Secure. It's fucking amazing. There are so many tools in there that are gonna help you towards your earn secure. And if you guys need anything, I'm always here. You could work one on one, ask a question, work with me in some capacity or just be ad free. If you guys don't want to deal with the ads or please support our show sponsors who help keep this as a free resource and don't forget to rate and review and leave a comment. Let me know what you think. Let me know any questions that we didn't answer anything you're confused about. I am here to help support you guys and I want to make sure that you feel equally as supported in this community. All right, babies, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Amir fucking living. Do you understand how excited and honored I am to have you in the studio? Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show.
- [02:31]
Amir Levine
Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm such a fan of your work. I see you on social media all the time, and I just. I love your content. I just really love it.
- [02:41]
Sabrina Zohar
Oh, I'm so excited. I'm excited because when we first found out you're gonna be on the show, I'm like, I hope he's okay if I ask, like, hard questions.
- [02:48]
Amir Levine
Oh, yeah, just hit me with whatever you have. I'll. I'll. I'll do my best.
- [02:52]
Sabrina Zohar
I'm excited. Okay, before we get started, can you please tell us a little bit more about you? Because I think when I say the book that you wrote, everyone and their mother literally is going to know the book attached. Like, you changed. You didn't just change culture, you became like a cultural phenomena. And how you brought forward, I think a really important conversation. But then, like all good things, it gets hijacked and then it gets taken. But before we even get to all of that, could you tell us a little bit more of you and your background?
- [03:18]
Amir Levine
Thank you. You're making me blush. I actually, I really. I'm a psychiatrist, and I'm both an adult and a child psychiatrist. I spent many, many years in school, and then when I was done with my training, I found myself doing all of a sudden, basic neuroscience research. I became like this molecular neuroscience geek. And in a way, I'm really glad that it happened because I was able to merge all these different things a little bit in attached because back then I was just learning to do the science but a lot more insecure to take all the lessons that I know about the brain and then kind of marry them together with attachment science to. To help people become more secure.
- [04:00]
Sabrina Zohar
Oh, I love this. That book is going to be game changing because, I mean, I have my list of everything I want to ask you, but I wanted to even start with, what have you found? That's been the most helpful because my partner is more avoidant leaning and I'm more of the anxious girly. But I think for me, I remember when I first read your book, I'll never forget, I was just holding it and I remember putting it down and looking up going, oh, my God, he's avoidant. And that was my ex being like, oh, my God. And I'm anxious because it allowed me to go, oh, there's not something wrong with me. This makes sense, right? There's a reason I act like this now. I tried to use it as responsibly as I could, but I would be honest, right? I would go on the Internet and you see like my avoidant, right? I'm always like my avoidant. They're not fucking, they're not furby, right? Like they don't own this person, but my avoidant this and the avoidant this and the avoidant that. But what have you really seen? I think the misconceptions. I really want to start there that
- [04:52]
Amir Levine
you've started to see so important, first of all, this idea that the attachment style that you have as a child is the attachment style that you're going to have as an adult. That's probably one of the biggest misconceptions because the research repeatedly shows that that's not the case. Your upbringing explains a small, very small amount of your adult attachment style. So less than 10%.
- [05:16]
Sabrina Zohar
Oh, shit.
- [05:17]
Amir Levine
Yeah. And actually there's one study, I just was just looking this morning before coming here, there's one study that actually shows that friendships has a greater correlation to your adult attachment style than your parents. But still all of these effects are modest. And at the end of the day, we're really the summation of all of our different social experiences, I think, and some of our own personal, where we come from, our genetics, all that gets funneled in. But the good news, we can constantly evolve and change our attachment styles. And in attachment style, what it is, it's basically a working model. It's a set of beliefs and ideas about the world. And if we bombard the brain with evidence to the contrary, it can change. And that's really the basic premise of this, of secure. And this whole secure primary therapy, this whole new approach that I've been working on for all these years is how to change the brain. How to present it with different information so you can see, huh? Okay, maybe I got it all wrong. I can change now.
- [06:23]
Sabrina Zohar
How do you feel when you. I mean, you're on the same side of the Internet when you go on and you see this inundation of, like, how to fix your anxious attachment, how to get the avoidant to do what you want? Like, how do you feel on the receiving end, like, watching all of this? Like, what are you thinking?
- [06:38]
Amir Levine
I think that I totally hear the plea and I think that people really struggle a lot in relationships, not just romantic relationships with our friendships and at work and it's painful. It's really painful. So people are searching for answers, and a lot of the information out there is a little bit misguided, a little bit.
- [07:03]
Sabrina Zohar
A little bit.
- [07:03]
Amir Levine
Maybe a lot misguided, but it's just like. It's just misguided, you know, and it just. And then it sort of. It sends you down the wrong path. And so this whole idea in writing, Secure, is to really help set people on a better path and a more effective path.
- [07:19]
Sabrina Zohar
What is one thing people have wrong or don't really understand about avoidance?
- [07:22]
Amir Levine
The problem with people that are avoidant is that they don't really understand that the rest of the world doesn't really see or experience relationships the way they do. For example, they take care of their own problems, and they do it really well. So if you come to them, oh, my God, I have a problem. Please help me. They're like, perplexed. They're just like, what do you want from me? Like, heal thyself. Like, I can help you. You help yourself. And they don't understand that that in and of itself creates a huge attachment backlash. Because for the rest of the population, maybe, avoidants are about 25% of the population. They're the minority. The rest of us will be very upset if we come to help with someone, and they'll tell us, you know what? You go help yourself. In fact, we'll forget about the problem. That. And now you become the problem. And one of the tools that I teach insecure is for avoidance to really avoid some of these very. There are three main common pitfalls that they fall into and kind of like how to circumvent them towards greater security. So the three main pitfalls are, I take care of my own problems, so should you. The second one is not respecting the attachment homeostasis, which is like a big word for baseline. The attachment baseline. And I'll explain. And then the third one is not being aware of what I've come to call the closeness overdose.
- [08:48]
Sabrina Zohar
What's the close. See, now you're just. You give me so much. What's the closeness overdose? Because this is fascinating to me.
- [08:53]
Amir Levine
So the closeness overdose is when. If you're avoidant. And again, there's so much that they don't know about themselves. And that's the biggest problem, I think, and I often find in my practice that when you teach them, they're like, huh, okay, I can do that. I can do this. They're workable at least. And there's a reason why I think they're workable. And we can go into that because we actually all have secure kernels within us, and it's a way you can summon those secure kernels from them. So back to the closeness overdose. The closeness overdose is they think that they're not interested in someone, or they start going up with someone, and all of a sudden they feel that they're not interested, and they feel that it's only because they haven't made the right person yet. It's not the one. They're not the one. Because it feels that way to them. They all of a sudden feel that, oh, I don't know if I like this person so much. I don't like the way they eat. I don't like the way they breathe. I don't know. It's just like all these deactivating strategies kick in. They can't control it. And oftentimes these deactivating strategies kick in because they're so eager to find their one. So when they find someone that they like, they go all in, and they create a lot of closeness really fast, really too much for their own good. And that's when their own biology says, wait a second, this is not comfortable for me. So then it starts to sort of like, wait a second. And they have these deactivating strategies kick in without being aware of it, and then they can't really do much about it. What I really teach people in my private practice is to learn to respect their avoidant needs and ease into closeness. And there are really little tricks that you can do that can really help avoidance, both be secure and actually get the distance that they want.
- [10:44]
Sabrina Zohar
Okay, so then how can you be in a relationship with someone more avoidant while still honoring your own needs?
- [10:49]
Amir Levine
The thing about attachment, it's a simple neurocircuitry. It's not a very complicated system. It's really about how we feel safe in the world. So, for example, when I came in here today, because a lot of pets have attachment, too, and it's so easy to see how pets react to attachment. So you dog, Kobe Koby was first in the door. I had to greet him. I had to pet him. I had to really give him a little bit of attention. And he just loved it. And now he's not here anymore. He's not clawing at the door, asking to come in for me to actually give him more attention. But probably if I'd ignored him, he would be like, no, I need my dose of attention. Oh, yeah, that's attachment at play. Same thing with all of us and especially with Avoidance, Avoidance. Have to learn that if you give the other person a little bit of attention the way I did with Kobe, not a person, but still attaches, that actually eases everything and they'll leave you alone. Like good relationships are not meant for people to constantly want attention from you or want your response once you give them. If you learn how to do it strategically, you get all the space that you need, they're not going to think about you. They're going to be out there exploring the world. Because attachment is inextricably linked to our exploratory drive.
- [12:09]
Sabrina Zohar
That's very interesting. It's interesting because like I mentioned earlier, I've got things anxious bug and Ryan's got the more avoidant. And you know, I also wanted to talk too because I think that you were saying like, or I was reading in the book that the recent study is that like, it's not like especially avoidant. Doesn't necessarily have to have been like your caregivers. They're obviously like. There also could be a biological response. Probably same with anxiety too. But people ask us all the time, like, how did you and Ryan make a relationship work? How do you have an anxious and avoidant relationship? And the main thing that I think a lot of people want to circumvent when we're talking about this is that both people need to be doing the work. Because if it's one person that's growth minded that wants to have the convers, that's willing to sit in the discomfort and the other person's leaving all the time or screaming, right, either way, you're not gonna actually get any fucking wear. You're not gonna make any progress, right? But when we have one person where sometimes they'll say, hey, I'm flooded. I need five minutes and I have to then go, okay, Sab, this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. He's flooded. You didn't do anything. You're allowed to also take five minutes. Where I had to learn that space isn't the enemy because I was always taught that when someone walks out on you or leaves you, that means you did wrong. You are a bad girl and you should be punished for that. And it wasn't until now having a corre experience because I had been with my fair share of if I'd like to diagnose avoidant, right, which is another thing that drives me fucking insane is people diagnosing their avoidant. My avoidant. It's like, how do you know that about this person? You had one Fucking date. Or you text them for three weeks and now all of a sudden it's like, here's the other side of the coin. They might not be avoidant. Maybe they're just not into you, or maybe they're just not as expressive. Or maybe they're just somebody that's a little bit more closed off. Doesn't mean we have to identify their attachment style. But what it really was for me, and I'm curious to see if, like, you've seen this as, you know, as we're talking about moving into a more secure space, that I had to let go of this narrative that I was never going to, right, that like earned secure is something that we can all move towards.
- [13:59]
Amir Levine
Oh, yeah.
- [14:00]
Sabrina Zohar
And I'm curious for you, as you've been doing this work, right, as we've seen, we go from attached, right, having all this, which I know you had said, like 50% of the population was secure. Are we still thinking that or are we thinking it's a little less?
- [14:11]
Amir Levine
There are conflicting reports.
- [14:13]
Sabrina Zohar
Fair.
- [14:13]
Amir Levine
Let's just say it that way. I mean, and that's another one of the myths, is that we can have different attachment style with different people and attachment styles can change. So all these different things really make a much more nuanced, much more workable, actually system than people give it credit for. And that's part of what I really go into in secure. I go into really teaching the very basic tools of what you can do in order to get out of that insecure space for both anxious and avoidant and fearful avoidance. I have to tell you the truth, nowadays I even talk to my sister. We're very close and we've talked and we've even commented to each other about how we hardly even talk about, oh, he's anxious, they're avoidant. We really talk more about. That was like the starting point. Now we talk more about the tools. Oh, are they carp? And I'll explain in a minute. What are the CNIs like? There's all these different tools that I've created in secure priming therapy to really take it as a step beyond the attachment styles and. Okay, what can we do now to put us in secure mode? Because if that's. I really like to call it secure mode because the benefits of living in secure mode are far beyond just our romantic relationships or even our friendships, or they're also psychologically and physiologically for us specifically. So there's research that shows that learning to live more securely and being like secure helps people longevity. People live longer, even if you have a challenging health crisis, you deal with it better and you have less symptoms. We didn't even know that all that research didn't exist when I wrote Attached,
- [15:58]
Sabrina Zohar
which I do want to understand about Carpenter and the Simis, because what is the new research like? Tell me a little bit more about from 15 years plus ago, from where you were to where we are now. What are you seeing matter more? Because I think a lot of people hold on to. Well, I have anxious attachment and it's almost like this. Get a jail free card of like, well, I'm allowed to treat people like I'm allowed to go insane or fucking text a hundred times because I have anxious attachment. And it's like, what else is part of the conversation here that we need to be having?
- [16:24]
Amir Levine
So I think what's really important to understand is that it's. Again, we'll go back to the idea that it's a safety system and it's a very simple system. It's like a radar. So is there like a switch to turn the radar off, to turn the alarm system off? So it doesn't go all the time? Who wants to live in a house where the alarm system goes off all the time? It's just like, it's impossible to live like that. So the idea is really coming up with something very useful that people can use to really understand what secure is in the simplest way possible. And I came up with these, I call them the five pillars of a secure life. And it consists of learning that you want to be that way and you want others to be that way in your life. They both have to do the work, you're right. And not just a partner, your environment in general. So you want you and other people to be consistent, available and responsive because it's really. And it's a very simple system. That's what we monitor for all the time. And it's not enough that you'll think, oh, I'm so great, I'm consistent, available and responsive. You need to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. So together that's Karp. Consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. And it's like a two factor authentication. You need to be consistent, available and responsive, and the other person needs to be reliable and experience you as reliable and predictable. So that's the first thing. So it makes a lot of conversations so much simpler when you have that carp sort of tool. And I can give you an example, please. I just finished doing like a master class and the editor was doing like a text box about some of the class. And he said something, oh, when someone is in carp, you have to tell them about how they've hurt your feelings and how this and that. And I said, no, no, no, no. You have to really understand it's not so much about hurting someone's feelings. It's much more about hurting the brain. When we don't. Where people are not consistent, available and responsible to us, that hurts the brain. There's all this research that looks at something that's called like exclusion. And when people are ignoring you or excluding you, and the research is beyond, it just like shows how harmful it is for our brains and how much our brain hates that sort of. That all of a sudden lack of connectivity. So it's not about, oh, you made me feel bad, which it does, of course it does. But then the other thing that people do is they relate it back to their childhood also. And because I grew up, this is what happened to me when I was younger and now I'm so more sensitive to it. But the research doesn't show that. The research shows that exclusion and that all of a sudden when people aren't carp with us, it will hurt us no matter what kind of childhood we had. And so when you tell people, you know, I really think that carp is important and I'm going to try to be this way. And I think other people, I'm looking for other people in my life that are this way. It's a game changer.
- [19:43]
Sabrina Zohar
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- [21:09]
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- [22:06]
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- [22:25]
Sabrina Zohar
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- [22:35]
Sabrina Zohar
What I'm really hearing as well is like, because anytime I'm like, what are green flags, right? What are green flags that we want to look at? Most of our audience is dating, but not all of them. Some of us are in relationships. Some people might be married. Consistency, reciprocity, like patience. All of these things. Especially consistency, right? For me, I had a very inconsistent household. You didn't know? My brother was taken when I was a kid to a drug program. My dad was in and out with his mistress and it was oi was it hectic? And so for me that was such a reconfirmation experience, right to my nervous system to have someone that like, oh, when we get into a fight, you don't leave. When we get into an argument, you sit with me. Right. That is something that is so beautiful. And I think a lot of us want to over conflict conflate as if like, oh, wow, no, you're making it sound easy. And it's like, I think you're actually more complicating it than it needs to be. Because if you're sitting there having a conversation with someone and you don't feel that they're consistent or that they're respectful or that they're going to show up for you, or then how do you trust this person? Right. How can you build trust? And we don't need to blame our attachment style. Maybe it's just that's a human, on a human level, I think that would make anybody feel insecure.
- [23:35]
Amir Levine
Yeah, we all have a radar like in our head that constantly surveys for the availability of the people in our lives. Everybody does. And if I were to tell you that like your loved ones, I don't know, someone in your family, I don't know, like a terrible earthquake happened there or something like that, you would have a really hard time continuing this conversation. You'd have to stop and make sure that they're okay and then you can continue on. So we have this idea where our loved ones are and that they're available, that there's like this attachment tug that goes on and when it gets disrupted, that's when our brain goes. That's basically the switch that turns on the alarm system. And some people, the alarm system blares more loudly and other people less. And that's the thing for secure people. It's harder to turn on the alarm system and they can turn it off more easily. But we can also tweak our environment so the alarm system isn't turned on so much. And carp is basically a very simple tool that people can use. They need to learn to be consistent, available and responsive, reliable and predictable. And then they can teach others to be that way with them. And the beauty is when avoidant learn to be carp with you. And it's really not in the best in big moments. I'm talking about a lot of people when they look for change, they think they need to go and talk about their childhood experiences or really difficult things that have happened to them. And they rarely think about what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life. If you understand the brain from a neuroscience perspective, especially from, I'm Going to throw in another word. I do epigenetic research, which is how basically we change our brain, really, the structure of our brain. And our brain changes all the time. So if we understand the brain from that perspective, we know that each and every small interaction, like that micro interaction, is an opportunity for change. And if we seize on those moments and accumulate more and more carp cnes where people are consistent, available, and responsive to us, and we are to others, then we positively can really change on a very, very fundamental level in our brain. We can really change the structure of our brain.
- [26:01]
Sabrina Zohar
It's the conversation, I think, that's important, right?
- [26:03]
Amir Levine
And so finding a solution that to
- [26:05]
Sabrina Zohar
me, it's the dance of feeling heard, feeling like, wow, you actually care about me. And it's not, you know, as I've had my fair share where you're like, hey, you know, I remember this one guy I dated, and this is where I would say, I changed the way I dated after this guy. He was the most everything on paper, right? He was super successful and handsome and charming, and, oh, my God, I could signed, sealed, deliver. I remember calling my mom, being like. And he lived out of town, and so he was coming back and forth and he was supposed to stay with me. And I hadn't spoken to him in like five days. And I remember telling him, like, hey, I don't feel connected with you. You know, can we talk about something? And it would be one thing if he was like, hey, totally get it, right? Like, then I instead, I got a voice note, baby girl, relax, okay? Like, go live your life. I'm living my life. Like, I'm out with my friends right now. You're making this something it's just not. And it was this whole three minutes of him excusing how all of that, you are making this something it's not. You're being that. And that's in that moment where I was like, oh, you're just unavailable, right? Like, this is it. You're just. You're not available to attune in the ways that I need.
- [27:08]
Amir Levine
But some of the research that I talk about insecure is how actually people with anxious attachment style, they have this sixth sense of noticing a lot of different things in the world, not just danger, but a lot of social cues and other cues that other people can't see. And that's a huge advantage, and it helps people. Let's say if you're day trading on Wall street, you see trends before everybody else does. And if you have the gumption and you'll bet on it people that I have in my practice made a ton lot of money because of that anxious attachment style. Because you have this amazing ability, but it comes with a price. So it's not about healing, it it's about learning to live with that ability to see things that other people can't see.
- [28:00]
Sabrina Zohar
Yeah, that's how I feel about being ADHD brained for a long time. It's very like, shame on that. Oh, you're too fast and you do this and you need to slow down. And so for a long time I had this Achilles heel, this just chip on my should shoulder of like, you're fucked up, there's something wrong with you. You get so anxious until I learn to live with it and learn to love it and say, wait a minute, how can I use this to my advantage? I'm like, okay, yeah, you're right. I might be really fast, which means I get work done a lot quicker, which means I can literally have a conversation with you. But I can also see everything that's going on so that by the time I'm done, I'm already checked in. I don't want anyone to feel like anything is wrong with them for having an attachment style. Whether that be anxious, avoidant, disorganized, doesn't matter. Right? It doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum. And I think we've villainize the avoidant is like they don't care and they're just assholes, which I don't believe that. I think that they have their own anxiety. Like my sister's avoidant, she'll start to cry and I can see it and I'm like, oh, she shut down. That's it. She can't because it's too scary for her. It's too dangerous. What's on the other side of that? And then same with the anxious person, right? Like, it's beautiful that we have these. But then that could go. The pendulum can swing, right when we're freaking out and having panic attacks because someone didn't call us and we didn't get what we want and we're like, that's it, we're burning the house down. And then all of a sudden you get the call and you're fine and everything's okay. But I think if we can look at instead of how do I get rid of it and how do I fix it? How do I learn to love it and live with it? To me, that would be earned secure. And I'm curious, how do you work towards becoming more earned secure?
- [29:21]
Amir Levine
So there's a few things that you mentioned that I really, really relate to. The one thing about adhd, I think what I talk about, and that's the third part of the book, is more about how you can secure your mind. I describe this idea about how we all biologically so diverse. And because we're so diverse, we all have our, what I've come to call these inner sparks of talent. But the problem is oftentimes that people with insecure attachment style and oftentimes anxious, but not only some of the time their most amazing inner sparks of talents, they see them as impediments. And I even have a whole sort of workshop in the book about how you can write down your inner spark of talent and realize or potentially what you think your impediments are. And then see, take a closer look at it more from a secure stance and see how it could actually be an inner spark of talent. And maybe you're not giving it the right environment to really flourish. And sometimes that's all it takes. When we are securely attached to others, sometimes one word, even a hug, can make us feel so much better, so much, very, very quickly because we're a social species. And that's one of the things that you find in the strange situation test, is how effective that bond is in regulating the child's emotion. There's no Xanax or Klonopy in the world that can even get close to
- [30:51]
Sabrina Zohar
that even to have a request, right? Hey, I'd like this. What makes the breaks for me is the acknowledgement of like, hey, thanks for letting me though. It's what you need, right? Maybe it's, I want to see you more often. Maybe it's, I want more depth, right? Like, Ryan and I went through that where he's just. He's not the most expressive person. Like, he's that very classic aspect of the avoid, where, like, he'll answer. He always says it, I'll answer questions, but I'm not really gonna ask as many at first or he'll be there. To him, it was just like, I'm just happy to be with you. And then me, I'm like, I talk and I connect and like, fuck my brain. Like, let's go. I really want to. And so at first I was like, ugh, I'm bored with him and he's not. It's. But then I had to realize, like, well, wait a minute. Part of being secure is also knowing that one person isn't going to satisfy every need. Exactly that I'm going to have Friends that will.
- [31:32]
Amir Levine
Because people who are having anxious remember they have both the need and ability for a lot of closeness. And so. And once you know that this other person is here to stay and you know it like you can, because the way it sounds like that you're able to negotiate things, then it gave you that idea. This person is carp. Even though he can't text me right away, but he's here to stay. So it creates this level of. It creates a secure blanket that gives you more leeway to accept than what they need as their animal needs are. We all have our different animal needs, but it has to be. You have to find a way. But what I'm trying to say in secure is that it's not that hard. It's easier than people think because it's not a very simple smart system, the attachment system. It's kind of stupid. It's like a radar. It's like on and off. And so you find a way to pacify it. And then you get all like. It's like you're the little kid. You don't care about the mom sitting in the background. You're there playing all day long. Every once in a while you look. So if you create that thing that you can look and you know that they're there. Like you have that inner understanding that they're there. You're not going to think about them. You go that. That's what really good relationships are about. They're not in the center, the forefront of your mind. They recede into the background. So you can create and you can live your life. You can raise children. There's all. It's a working unit.
- [32:58]
Sabrina Zohar
My mom always says they're in addition to your life, not instead of. That's kind of what you're saying. This is additive. This is a part of your life. It's not your life. And that's where we get into codependency. It's like, if I have it, I'll get the girls. They didn't text me, but they're on social media. And then the hyper vigilance kicks in where they're like, it's been three hours and four minutes since they responded. And it's like, that's where. Then I look and say, but then this isn't about them anymore. Because if it was about them, then we'd be able to say, oh, wait a minute, they're flying today. I know that they're not going to answer me back because they're on a flight or they're in a work meeting or they didn't expect that I was going to text them. So not burning the house down, right? You were talking about the fire alarm. I was talking about smoke alarm. Then imagine if every single time the smoke alarm goes off and eventually you're like, there's no fucking fire. Like that's to me. What helped me with but through the anxious attachment was learning to understand the difference between I'm setting off the smoke alarm because I am feeling out of control and I'm trying to gain it versus hey, I think there's smoke. So there might be fire. And I'd like to get curious about that. Cause I learned to trust myself and I am curious. For anyone listening today, if somebody is saying I don't know where to begin, where do we begin? Outside of obviously buying the book and reading it. But where do you begin? What is a tool that we can give. I have a tool of the week. Where is somebody that could begin today on even whatever their attachment style is to be able to make one step closer towards being secure?
- [34:15]
Amir Levine
I think the way to begin is to really educate yourself about what the attachments neurocircuitry is all about. That it's a simple radar system or alarm system and you learn using those carp and the CMEs how to keep it at bay. And with some people it's easier to keep it at bay and with others it requires a little bit more fine tuning. But it really, once you learn how to fine tune it, it's really not a lot of work. And if it continues to be a lot of work. So that's where I talk about in the book. I talk about the carp intervention. And then what do you do when the carp intervention doesn't work? And it can be in dating and it can be with friends and it can be in sort of many different social situations. So I think it's really important to understand that people who have an anxious attachment style, because of that extra layer of sensitivity or ability to see things that other people can't see, they can get triggered more easily. So the idea is to try to create the most secure environment for themselves. And they can do that by really trying to curate their social surrounding. Here's where the attention really needs to shift because sometimes most of the time we have other secure people in our lives that we hardly pay any attention to because they're boring. They're a carp. They always show up for us. They're there when we text them, they text us back. They're always there for us. So our attention goes into the drama. And I say, no, no, no. What you can do now is instead of, like, question, question, are you okay? Text this secure person who's always. So it's a simple shift in your attention, and now you are. And then you open the door to more secure influences in your life. And that's a huge game changer. It sounds like such a little thing to do, but now you're shifting the focus in your life towards more secure people.
- [36:15]
Sabrina Zohar
Oh, yeah. I remember when I first. Ryan and I had our first date. We slept together on the first date. That's when you said it. I was like, heh, heh. So did I. And I remember sitting there being like, man, you're never gonna hear from this guy again. And I was like, ah, you know what? Maybe you will, right? Like, maybe that's not. That's why I started my career. I was like, the dating advice I was hearing, it wasn't a one size fits all. Like, no, I don't want to wait three months. I don't want to like Tara. I want to know if we're compatible sexually. A lot earlier, and when we left, I remember I looked him in the eyes, and this is, I guess, my version of seeing if he was. If I could have carp. And I said, I had a really great time, but I want to just be 100% clear with you. I don't do casual, and I don't do the hookup thing. I'm not your friend with benefits. If you want to see me again and you call me, that's because we're actually building something and you're getting to know me. If not, please don't waste my fucking time. I had a great time tonight.
- [36:54]
Amir Levine
That's a carp intervention.
- [36:55]
Sabrina Zohar
And he just looked, and he was like, that was really sexy. And people ask him, now, why did you go out with her? And he was like, she wasn't afraid of losing herself. She was afraid. She didn't care about losing me. She cared about was she gonna lose her. And I made sure that throughout the relationship, I never. Cause people ask, how did you change him? It's like, I didn't change him. I showed up in the way that I wanted someone to show up for me, and I made the choice and determination. If you'd like to join, I'm fucking here. Let's do it. And if not, that's okay. There will be people. Because it's true, like you said, building that secure environment means having yoga classes that were predictable for me, that I knew I could go to because I Loved the teacher.
- [37:29]
Amir Levine
Yeah, exactly. And then exercise is super important.
- [37:32]
Sabrina Zohar
It's everything like just. But knowing, right, you have your one friend, no matter what, you know that they'll answer you. My dog, right before he passed away, like Clem was my object, permanence. He was everything. He was safety to me. Cause I never experienced that. But it's so important to even just have one glimmer of your day because that helps us. Because we didn't get to talk. It's my last question for you, Limerence. I wanna know a little bit more because I think that we get into, we see especially with the anxious folk, right. This obsession, this hyper fiction fixation of like I just need to get them even when this person is very clearly not somebody for them. From the data, from what you're seeing, where does that come from? What is that?
- [38:09]
Amir Levine
It can be so painful and so hard and so heartbreaking. And I've learned over time to really respect that. I think what happens is people. I think what people really need to do is earlier on, do what you did. Like that carp intervention right up front and center. I think you should do it on your dating profile. I mean, for me what's important is people that are consistent, available and responsive. I am that way. I expect that from you too. I really should sort of shout it from the rooftop. Because of Limerence? Exactly because of that. Because once if you go into it and many people with anxious attachment, oh, I don't want to rock the boat too much. Oh, like, like I don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize the relationship. No, you do want to do that. You want to rock the boat. You want to see if this person is right for you. Because let's say you would have scared him away. Good, good. Run, go. Like run away. Because this is who I am. So you kind of like told him from the very get go, each person should have, I call it in the book, your secure spiel. You should create a little sort of secure. You gave him a secure spiel?
- [39:14]
Sabrina Zohar
I gave him a spiel, yes.
- [39:15]
Amir Levine
And this is who I am. That's what to expect. This is me showing up. So once you, if you don't do that and you don't want to rock the boat. So you are coming in on their terms. And if those terms are not really the right terms for you, and then you find it out three months in or a month in, or like when you're already, when you're already really so much more emotionally involved, then you're in trouble, then it can take a long, long time for you to let it go. And it needs a lot of patience. I think the pain is unavoidable. But what you can do is you can. It's a huge surge of energy. And you can take that energy and you can try to channel it to something that will pay off in the next round because you showed up and you can form relationships and for some reason here, it didn't work, but you can still show up. And that's the beauty of attachment, is that when a window closes, the door opens.
- [40:16]
Sabrina Zohar
I had to let, for me, my whole career started from hitting rock bottom. So I understand it's a huge energy
- [40:23]
Amir Levine
because it gives you, like, you know what? I'm going to take this and I'm going to make. I'm going to take this really horrible lemon. Yeah.
- [40:30]
Sabrina Zohar
And it makes sense.
- [40:30]
Amir Levine
And I'm going to try to buy. Yes. I'm not giving up.
- [40:33]
Sabrina Zohar
No. And you know what I had to let go of, too, was like, fuck the avoidance and don't do that. I had to really let go of that and say, it doesn't matter the attachment style. It matters what they're doing with it. Because I would never. I would never be with Ryan if I listened to the clickbait on TikTok being like, fuck, the avoidant. Avoidants are narcissists.
- [40:47]
Amir Levine
And they're all. That's really a very big problem. There's a lot of insecure priming that happens online. And what I'm saying is we all have that potential to be more secure. So I really. We try to channel it and bring it up out of people. And basically, even what you did with Ryan was kind of like trying to see, can I reach into that sort of secure kernel within you and pull it out and can you sort of meet me there?
- [41:14]
Sabrina Zohar
Oh, Amir, I could sit here and talk to you all day about this, but we've been yapping. Okay, where can people find you in the book? Tell us everything. We'll have it linked in the show notes.
- [41:22]
Amir Levine
But sure, I mean, you can go to amirlevignmd.com there you can actually take an attachment quiz with many different people in your life, including your pet, and then learn more about secure primary therapy and all that on my website.
- [41:39]
Sabrina Zohar
And don't forget to get the book secure, because attach changed the world. So let's let secure helpfully course correct on just what people have taken, because it's not what you wrote, it's what people took.
- [41:48]
Amir Levine
No, I quote, it's definitely not what I wrote.
- [41:49]
Sabrina Zohar
It's not what you wrote because I read your book like seven times. I know what's in there. That's why when I hear sometimes the other side, I'm like, where did you get that from? Like, that was some 22 year old that doesn't understand attachment styles and dated some asshole that often.
- [42:01]
Amir Levine
People talk out of their own pain.
- [42:03]
Sabrina Zohar
Of course. That's what I'm saying. Like you're just hurting. I get that. But we are spreading that misinformation which is so detrimental. So let's get to secure.
- [42:11]
Amir Levine
That's why your work is so important.
- [42:12]
Sabrina Zohar
Likewise, Amir, thank you so much for being here.
- [42:15]
Amir Levine
I really loved it. Thank you.
- [42:26]
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