203: Why You Keep Choosing The Same Person Over And Over W/ Thais Gibson

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Sabrina Zohar Show
Episode 203: Why You Keep Choosing The Same Person Over And Over W/ Thais Gibson
Date: May 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid, deep-dive conversation, host Sabrina Zohar welcomes back Thais Gibson (author, founder of The Personal Development School, and attachment theory expert) to unpack the ways our subconscious patterns, childhood wounds, and attachment styles lead us to repeat relationship choices and emotional cycles. Together, they offer practical, scientifically-backed strategies for unwinding these patterns—emphasizing self-responsibility, healing, and agency in relationships. The episode is practical, raw, and peppered with memorable moments and hands-on tools.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Thais Gibson’s Personal Journey & The Roots of Healing ([02:51]–[09:21])

• Origin Story: Thais describes a childhood marked by chaos, trauma, and addiction. She realized through her own struggle that simply willing herself to change wasn't enough—her subconscious programming was running the show.
• Breakthrough Insight: "Your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious mind." That led her down a path of deep self-study in psychology, neuroscience, and the subconscious.
• Healing Process: Thais shares how rewiring her core beliefs and inner dialogue—not just treating symptoms—freed her from dependency on substances and allowed for true healing.

Quote:

“The problem isn’t the problem. The painkillers aren’t jumping down my throat when I’m sleeping. It’s that I had all these reasons internally that I was trying to run from pain.” — Thais Gibson, [06:23]

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2. Healing in Relationships: The Mirror Effect ([12:29]–[14:48])

• Polishing by Friction: Relationships don't just serve connection; they're mirrors reflecting our wounds and opportunities for growth.
• Key Idea: “If I am irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished?” – Rumi ([12:29]). Frustrations and triggers signal where we need healing, both in and out of relationships.
• Misconception Debunked: While relationships can offer healing, “No one is doing that work for you. That is an internal job.” — Sabrina Zohar, [11:23]

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3. Attachment Styles & Core Wounds: The Five Pillars Framework ([14:48]–[20:56])

• Attachment Styles: Clear distinctions between Anxious, Dismissive-Avoidant, and Fearful-Avoidant (Disorganized) styles and their unique core wounds (abandonment, betrayal, defectiveness, shame, etc.)
• Subconscious Rewiring Steps: ([16:53]–[20:56])
  • Name the wound and its opposite.
  • Speak to the subconscious through repetition, emotions, and imagery (not just language).
  • Use personal memories to reinforce new beliefs.
  • Record and listen for 21 days during “suggestible” brain states (morning/evening).
• Why Willpower Isn’t Enough: "Unless you're engaging the subconscious mind, we don't really heal so quickly." — Thais Gibson, [17:14]

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4. Overview: The Six Pillars of Healing

I. Identify & Rewire Core Wounds ([16:53]–[20:56])

• See above for process.

II. Meet Your Own Unmet Needs ([20:56]–[23:45])

• Exercise: List unmet childhood needs from parents. Actively give to yourself what you missed (emotional presence, validation, etc.) for 21 days, making it your new normal.
• Emphasis on Agency: Healing is about becoming your own parent; reparent yourself to fill those childhood voids.

Quote:

“Healing happens when we become our own parents, when we reparent these things in relationship to self.”
— Thais Gibson, [21:08]

III. Nervous System Regulation ([31:16]–[35:14])

• Don’t Skip Steps: You can't just regulate away root wounds with breathwork or somatic hacks.
• True Regulation: It’s a secondary step after addressing underlying wounds/needs.
• Tool: Somatic processing (notice physical sensations and emotions, not stories) re-centers the brain from "feral cat" survival mode back to calm. ([36:18]–[39:05])

Quote:

“If you’re triggered, rather than going into the story, practice just noticing the sensations in your body.”
— Thais Gibson, [36:18]

IV. Conscious Communication ([39:32]–[48:17])

• Positive Framing: State needs constructively (“I’d love more quality time” vs. “You never spend time with me.”)
• Be Specific: Paint a clear picture of what support or love looks like to you.
• Accountability: Communicate needs, don’t expect mind-reading. Reiterate needs with patience.
• Feedback: When someone tries but doesn’t get it perfect, validate first—then gently tweak.

Quote:

“If you don't positively frame, nobody hears what you're saying...Every criticism, there's actually a need.”
— Thais Gibson, [39:37]

V. Boundaries ([49:01]–[52:54])

• Subconscious Work: You must rewire stories about boundaries (e.g., boundaries = unsafe) for it to feel natural—21 days of conscious, incremental practice.
• Exposure Therapy: Start with “easy” boundaries, then move up.
• Progress over Perfection: Boundaries aren’t about rigid lines—they’re evolving, gentle self-protection.

Quote:

“If you want to do boundaries, it has to be at the subconscious level. It can’t just be like this intellectualized thing.”
— Thais Gibson, [49:11]

VI. (Bonus) Rewiring Behavior Patterns ([54:30]–[57:54])

• Behavior Change: Understand every “bad habit” meets a hidden need and has positive/negative emotional associations in your subconscious.
• Change Process: Identify the need behind the behavior, find healthier ways to meet it, list costs of the old behavior and benefits of the new, then use repetition and recording for 21 days.
• Ownership: Gives you conscious choices, rather than living out your parents’ (or past’s) script.

Quote:

“When you do this work, you get to consciously choose your subconscious patterns. When you don’t, who’s choosing your patterns? Mom or Dad, probably.” — Thais Gibson, [60:37]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When we villainize everyone else in our lives, we're the victim. But when I can take radical accountability ... I'm no longer a victim, and I'm actually leading my life."
  — Sabrina Zohar, [25:53]
• “If I am irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished?”
  — Rumi via Thais Gibson, [12:32]
• “It’s always so much more work not to do the work.”
  — Thais Gibson, [60:12]
• “Healing is capacity—the difference is not the wound, it's our ability to respond with new choices.”
  — Paraphrased from both, multiple points

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:51]–[09:21] – Thais Gibson’s background; subconscious vs. conscious mind; journey into psychology/healing
• [12:29]–[14:48] – Healing and hurting in relationships; “All the things that rub you the wrong way are there to polish you.”
• [16:53]–[20:56] – Attachment styles, core wound identification, 3-step subconscious rewiring technique
• [20:56]–[23:45] – Meeting unmet childhood needs, reparenting exercises
• [31:16]–[35:14] – Nervous system regulation (what works, what doesn’t, order of operations)
• [36:18]–[39:05] – Somatic processing: neuroscience-based technique for emotional regulation
• [39:32]–[48:17] – Communication: positive framing, specificity, and feedback loops
• [49:01]–[52:54] – Boundaries: subconscious work, breaking the “boundary cycle”
• [54:30]–[57:54] – Rewiring behaviors; hidden needs, cognitive dissonance, habits
• [59:44]–[61:11] – Rapid tool for starting now: pick one unmet need and give it to yourself for 21 days

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Practical Takeaways

Starter Tool (Micro-Moment):

“Pick one need you desperately seek from others and practice meeting it yourself every day for 21 days.”
— Thais Gibson ([59:44])

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a no-nonsense, neuroscience-informed crash course on why we repeat old patterns and how to break free. Sabrina and Thais remind listeners that self-awareness is only the beginning: true change comes from subconscious rewiring, daily action, and radical accountability—not blaming partners, waiting to be rescued, or using “quick fix” Instagram hacks. The work is sometimes uncomfortable, but the payoff is greater peace, authentic choice, and meaningful connection—with others and with self.

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Find Thais Gibson

• Personal Development School Website, free attachment quiz
• YouTube: @ThaisGibsonPersonalDevelopmentSchool
• Instagram: @thepersonaldevelopmentschool

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“Just because you were dealt that hand of cards does not mean that has to be your entire future.”
— Thais Gibson ([61:11])

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For anyone feeling stuck or overwhelmed, start with one need, and show up for yourself for the next 21 days. Healing is a daily, conscious choice—one you get to make anew, every day.

Transcript

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[B]

Watch only on Prime. Have you ever heard the term we hurt in relationships, but we also heal in relationships? Something that you might have no idea about is sure right? Relationships can cause you to not trust. Relationships can make you feel like you're losing everything if you lose that person. But they can also help you find yourself and heal in a completely different way. And today, not only are we going to share with you how you hurt and heal in relationships, but the stages of which you do that. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. You guys, we have a very special guest today. We have somebody who has been on the show before and she is now in studio with us in person. And you guys get to see Thais Gibson again. I fucking love her. But today we're really going to help you understand that there are stages of relationships and healing in those relationships because we all have those attachment wounds. We all have something that we're battling and fighting through. And today we're going to give you a little bit more clarity, some tools to help you. And guys, as always, we're going to please don't forget to rate and review the show. We have a lot of new friends here. A little bit about me. I curse a lot. I say fuck every other word. I speak really fast. But baby, that's why it's marked explicit. So if you don't like it, that's okay. We don't take it personally. But if you do, welcome to the family. All we ask is if you leave a comment or review, please speak with kindness. We're building a community here of love and safety and that includes how we speak to each other. But we're open and receptive to how you feel if you guys need anything, everything's at the link in show notes. You can join a course, work one on one, or just be here. That's really what matters. All right, babes, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Ms. Thais. Mrs. Mrs. Thais. Ah, fuck it. You're married.

[A]

What's it. Whatever it is, yeah.

[B]

Welcome to the show.

[A]

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here with you, honestly. Excited to hang out and just chat.

[B]

That's the thing. I even said. I was like, we're not. We have no notes, we have no outline. I'm like, I want us to just have a really real and authentic conversation today. But before we do, could you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got started with all this?

[A]

Yeah, so I got into this, probably how a lot of people get into this work, which is I just went through a lot of my own personal struggles and was really seeking a way out. So I was telling you this not too long ago, but I. I went through a lot of childhood chaos and trauma and big stuff and then just internalized everything and. And by the time I. I turned 15, I had knee surgery. I got addicted to painkillers, and I was, like, really, really struggling. And I just. I remember there's sort of some interesting things when I look back on my journey. I remember being in an AA meeting one day and trying all these things out. I go to, like, AA meetings or NA meetings or inpatient rehab in between university semesters, in the summer, outpatient rehab, all kinds of stuff, and nothing really was working for me. And I also wasn't really committed at the time to, like, working the steps very well. I was a kid. But I think one of the reasons that I struggled is that I went into a meeting one day and somebody was in there, and she was like, I've been sober 100 days, and today was the hardest day. And I remember that for me, I was 18 at the time, and I remember going like, oh, my God. Like, am I gonna just suffer my entire life? Like, is it gonna be this hard? My entire life, it's always gonna be this crazy battle. And I wasn't really willing to accept that. And I think I was just, like, always searching for something else. So I was in school for psychology, and probably on the outside, like, maybe my life looked like it was doing okay. Got a full ride, soccer, scholarship, all these things. But, like, on the inside, I was, like, falling apart, like, just getting in trouble and this thing and that, like, just so much stuff was going on and behind the scenes. And I was in a class and somebody said to me, oh, your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious mind. And I don't know if you've ever seen anybody that you've been close to an active addiction or anything like that. But it's like you tell yourself all the things you're like, I'm going to get sober, I'm going to get clean, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And you tell yourself, and then you just never follow through. And you just feel like you're helpless and weak and not capable. And so that's what I believed about myself. And hearing somebody say that, I was like, oh, so my conscious mind wants sobriety. And my subconscious mind has a different set of priorities going on, so how do I figure out what that is and what's going on down there? And I just became obsessed with learning about the subconscious mind first, like how we get wired and how we get conditioned and where we take our conditioning from and how you can rewire it and change it. And that to me, was what ended up changing my life. So then I got into a way better place, got sober. Definitely am not somebody who like people. And I want to be mindful about how I say this because everybody's journey is different. But like, I don't think about painkillers. I don't think like, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, you're going to be sober forever and, and you're going to struggle forever. And like, I had my appendix out maybe five years ago and was prescribed painkillers. They sat in my house somewhere for like a few months. Eventually we moved. I'm like, oh, these are here. Threw them out. Like just. And it doesn't have to be like that, but that's because I did a lot of the deep inner work so that I wasn't in relationship to substances that way.

[B]

Yeah, Interesting how many people share that story.

[A]

Interesting, right?

[B]

Of like, that they had something that took them that was like, my brother had a drug problem when I was a kid, so like he was sent to a wilderness program. And it's not really something I wrote about the book, but I never really talked about it publicly. How it impacted the family of like having to go to NA and being around the program and the 12 steps and doing all of that and then really looking and saying that was a byproduct. It was a sub product of the deeper real root issues, like that that wasn't the issue. The issue was the toxicity, the chaos. That. That was his coping mechanism. And so I find that really fascinating, and I'm curious. So now you said that doesn't really impact you anymore.

[A]

Yeah, to be perfectly honest, like, you know, I've heard people talk about stuff over the years, and for a while, I would go to meetings and things like that, but I just don't even think about it. Like, I. It's not something where I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm just joaning jonesing for today. It's not even something that's, like, in my awareness. And it. It really. You kind of just said this in passing. But one thing I really realized over time is that, like, the problem isn't the problem. Like, the painkillers aren't, like, jumping down my throat when I'm sleeping. Like, it's. It's that. It's the fact that, like, I had all of these reasons internally that I was trying to run from pain. And one of the examples that showed up for me first is I remember at the time when I was trying to get sober, I was trying to learn about the subconscious mind. And then I had this, like, sort of spiritual mentor come into my life at the same time, and he was trying to tell me I was so young then, and this is way before meditation and stuff like that was, like, more mainstream. And he was like, oh, you have to meditate. You have to meditate. I remember sitting down one day and being like, oh, I'm going to meditate. And I sat down, and I was in this. This apartment. I was living in Miami at the time, and. And I sat down and. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna meditate. What I'm supposed to do, I'm supposed to just, like, watch my thoughts and just witness them. And I started to try to witness. Some of the first things that I noticed that I said is I was like, this is stupid. You're stupid. You're gonna fail at this. Like, you fail at everything. And I. And I just started, like, going off on myself, and I was like, oh, my goodness. No wonder I numb. Like, no wonder this is what's going on. And I realized a lot of how I saw people talk to each other growing up and how I was spoken to at times is like, what I internalize as my own internal dialogue. So no wonder those are my programs. That's what was running at a subconscious level. And I was like, I need to change that first. Like, whatever that is, because if somebody was following me around all day, talking to me like that, I would want to numb them out too. Like, no wonder. And so I started doing a lot of work on, like, my internal dialogue, my thoughts, my core beliefs, my nervous system, learning how to, like, be calm and present, and through a lot of, like, mindfulness and meditation and. And. And learning who I was. I think I grew up in so much chaos and trauma that there wasn't time to be like, oh, who am I? What do I need? It was like, how do I figure this out? Like, how do I kind of survive on a daily basis? So I started doing a lot of work on, like, how do you rewire your core wounds? Or your. Your internal dialogue? Then how do you learn your needs? And how do you design your life according to, like, things that are true for you and who you are? And how do you regulate your nervous system? And I just started there, and it was so healing that I started giving these workshops for free to people. I'd be like, oh, my gosh. I couldn't believe it. Like, I was like, I have peace. Like, I had never felt peace. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And from that, I started seeing clients kind of by accident. People come after the workshops. Oh, will you take us as clients? And I was like, I'm like 21 or 22 at the time. I was like, I'm really young. I'm still in school. Do you care? People are like, no, we love the workshop. And so I started seeing clients. But then after being really sober and, like, really in a good, healed space for. For a few years on my own, I met now 11 years ago, my. My husband. And it was the first time I dated. I didn't date anybody for like, three and a half years. Like, I got sober and he. We.

[B]

We.

[A]

As things got more serious and we started living together, I was like, oh, like, I still have stuff to figure out. Like, I got really peaceful on my own. I was really good on my own, but I didn't really know how to do relationships healthily yet. And that's when I revisited attachment theory. I learned about it in first year university. And it's such a high level where it's like, oh, here's your attachment style, here's your temperament. Here's some of your patterns. But it was like, no, no. What are the triggers? What are the needs? Like, what are. How do you regulate your nervous system? So then I started being like, oh, I'm gonna work with people to rewire their core wounds, which each attachment Stuff I knew somebody's attachment style. I knew what their core wounds were gonna be, what their needs were gonna be, how their nervous system was gonna be functioning. We could rewire those things. But then more importantly, what I learned to do is like, how do you communicate? Like, how do you actually talk in a healthy way? I had only seen people talk through fighting or like have conversations like that, or how do you learn how to have healthy boundaries or. Or be vulnerable in relationships. All stuff I didn't really know how to do. And so I was like, oh, I have to revisit that. And that's kind of what took a lot of the work I do. Full circle.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by Green Chef. I love Green Chef. I do not have the time to think about groceries and food especially. I was going through my mold detox and had to go gluten free. And I panic. Cause your girl loved her gluten. And that's why I loved Green Chef so much. Oh, my God. They had this one miso tahini spinach salad with pecans. That's on this week's menu. Baby. This was a game changer for me because I didn't have to think about it, right? I could pick what mattered to me, whether that was Mediterranean, high protein, gluten free. I got high quality products, meals that come pre portioned and ready in minutes. And that is the best part. And the best part beyond this, if you want guidance beyond the plate, they include free, unlimited one on one nutrition coaching that helps you stay on track. It is amazing. It helps me keep my goals that way. I know I'm eating well, feeling good, and have the energy for the day that I need without having to think about all the other variables. So baby. And head to greenchef.com 50sABRINA and use code 50sABRINA to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months again. That's code [e-mail]50sABRINA. Oh, I'm so excited to have this conversation. Cause I'm excited to learn about all that. The. The painful truth I learned along my healing journey was that you do hurt in relationships and heal in relationships. But the biggest caveat about that is that we can't expect another partner to do that healing for. And I see that content online of like, the right person's going to heal you, a secure partner is going to heal you. And all that person's going to do is create a safe space for you to be able to understand and get curious and look at that. But no One is doing that work for you. That is an internal job. And in the more that we outsource that to everybody else, we can't be so shocked when we try to numb, when we try to escape, and when we try to rely on somebody else to do it for us when that's the job that's meant for us. When you hear that, like, we hurt relationships, we heal in relationships, can you give us like the zoomed out version? Because there's so much I want to talk to you about my ADHD brain, trying to fit it all into one question, but I'd like to start there because I know that there are stages and there's steps in the relationship and there's all these different aspects, but can we talk about a highbrow of how that really works for people that maybe don't understand what the fuck I'm talking about?

[A]

Yeah, a hundred percent. It reminds me of this quote and, and it's a roomy quote. And he says, um, if I'm irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished?

[B]

Oh, I love that.

[A]

And it's like saying, you know, for anybody who doesn't know or didn't catch it as quickly as you, because sometimes I tell people that and they're like, what? But what it means is like, all of your relationships are not just about love and connection, they're about growth. And relationships are going to show you what's still wounded. Like, they're going to be a mirror into yourself. And everything that irritates you or rubs you the wrong way is there to polish you, is there to like, help you see and like heal and grow through that experience. And most of our hurt comes from relationships, but so does most of our healing. That's an opportunity to look into yourself. If there's something hurting you or bothering you or upsetting you, that's an opportunity for you to take radical responsibility for what's going on in your internal world and then be able to move through that and see what needs to be done. So I really agree with that. And I also think in, in relationships, to your point, so often people are like, oh, you should. You heal it for me, you should do it for me. All of the things that we struggle to resource most within ourselves, we put pressure on people around us to source for us. So if somebody who's like, let's say anxious in relationships and they're, they have a hard time self soothing, what do they do? They're like, oh, my partner should always be here to soothe me. They should do it for me, and it's like, well, that's not the answer. Because that just puts stress on the other person. And over time, that puts stress on the relationship. And then when the person's not there, you haven't learned anything. You haven't learned how to, like, move through that without them. So I really believe that relationships and A, become this mirror into yourself. And B, you can have somebody who's secure, who can hold space for you or be a container for you to go through what you're going through. But at the end of the day, like, each person has to do the work. And I don't think there's any way around that.

[B]

I love that. What's the quote?

[A]

So Rumi has a great quote, and he says, if I am irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished? And what that means is everything that upsets you, makes you feel triggered in a relationship, all those things that rub you the wrong way, they're an opportunity for polishing, they're an opportunity for healing, because they're showing you what hasn't healed within yourself yet.

[B]

So I wanna know, because I think you and I are on the same side of the Internet that we see a lot of this so much in misinformation between attachment styles and healing and doing the work. Have you noticed a clear difference between the rubric that it takes for every attachment style to really get to that place? And what have you seen? Because this I know we could rant on for a long time.

[A]

So I go through five pillars every single time. And it's so interesting. Cause it's. It's actually the work I did first before ever going into attachment cells. It was like, okay, what are your core wounds? And so traditional attachment theory is like, oh, here's sort of some of the frameworks. But like, the actual wounds we found is that anxious attachment cells, their biggest triggers are the fear of being abandoned, alone, excluded, rejected, disliked, not good enough, unloved, unsafe. And I know that sounds a lot, but you can actually rewire two wounds at a time. And I can go through an exercise if you want, for how to do that, but it's super simple dismissive avoidance. They have totally different wounds. So their big wounds are the fear of being trapped, helpless, powerless, defective, or shameful if somebody's critical to them, unsafe in a conflict, this fear of not belonging, which is a really big thing for them. And then this fear of being weak if they're vulnerable. And so these are all things. And. And like the idea that I give as. As your Actual core wounds. The analogy is, like, if you go into the woods and you see a bear and the bear chases you and you run away and thank God you're safe, but then you have to go back into the woods the next day. Your mind is just, like, projecting the bear everywhere. Like, you hear the trees move and you're bracing for the bear. And it's because our subconscious mind, when it gets imprinted by negative experiences, we store them very strongly and we hold on to negative things a lot more than positive things. You don't remember, like being chased by the bear and thinking, like, oh, the pretty flowers. Look at the beautiful flowers as I'm running. Like, you're like, the bear and its teeth. Like, that's what you remember. And so our subconscious holds onto negative things more than positive, and then it reprojects them back out. So that's great if you have to be chased by a bear and survive, but it's not great when you felt abandoned as a child, and now every time you're not getting a text message back, you're, like, projecting that abandonment. Fearful avoidance. They have the anxious and avoidant core wounds. They share in both of them. Often fearful avoidance. Originally think they're anxiously attached, but fearful avoidance. What's really unique to them is you have a really anxious side, but you push people away all the time because you're scared. You feel threatened by love and connection, and so they deactivate and pull back all the time too. And they have this huge core wound around also being betrayed. That was a big thing we found in our research is like, betrayal, unworthiness, I am bad. And then abandoned, disliked, excluded, Rejected. Those are sensitive points too. And the fear of being trapped or helpless, the first pillar is always like, know your wounds, rewire them. And I'm happy to, like, share a

[B]

tool if you want.

[A]

So. So a really easy tool is that we have to understand none of those core wounds are conscious. Nobody is like, let me tell myself I'm not good enough all day and see how I feel. They are subconscious wounds. So we have to deal with those things at a subconscious level. Your subconscious mind is responsible for 95 of all of your beliefs, thoughts, emotions, actions. Your conscious mind is 3 to 5%. Well, fuck, yeah.

[B]

That explains a lot.

[A]

Yeah. That's why everybody will be like, oh, I have to. I'm gonna quit eating chocolate for my New Year's resolution. Then, like, you eat chocolate three days later. Or you're like, oh, I'm gonna stop raising my voice in a relationship. But you Can't. Like, it's because unless you're actually rewiring those things that are causing you to do that, you're gonna keep repeating the same patterns that's near and dear to my heart. Because that's why I was like, oh, I'm gonna get sober, I'm gonna get sober. And then nothing would happen. And so, so what happens is unless you're engaging the subconscious mind, we don't like, really heal so quickly. And we have a lot of like, trying to get around it and figure it out and like go this way, that way. So there's three steps. First step is, what is your core wound? And it's opposite. So now that you heard the main core wounds, you can find yours and it's opposite. Second step is you have to speak to your subconscious mind. The conscious mind speaks in language. Okay, so like actual like language, like we're talking right now, the subconscious does not. It speaks in emotions and images. And so if you try to do something like just affirm your way out of a wound, it's useless. And so what we want to be able to do is we want to use our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind. So that looks like leveraging emotions and imagery. And if you look at like the container of emotions and imagery, you can actually see this. If I'm like, oh, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant. Like you hear it, but you think of a pink elephant. That's your conscious versus subconscious mind. Your conscious hears the language, but you register it after your subconscious flashed an image. So we have to speak to our subconscious, cuz that's where the wounds exist. Nobody's consciously choosing to wake up and be like, oh, I'm. I. I'm gonna tell myself all day I don't belong, or that I'm weak or whatever it is. So step one, find your wound and its opposite. Step two, we want to come up with lots of repetition of emotions and imagery, because repetition, fires and wires and emotions and imagery reach the subconscious mind. So now we're creating neural networks at the subconscious level of mind. So what we do here is we go, okay, let's say the wound is, I'm not good enough. I am good enough. We need 10 memories of times we actually felt good enough. Because every memory that we have is a series of emotions and images. If I say, tell me your favorite childhood memory, and you were like, oh, I'm playing at the beach with my friends, you see the images of the waves and the sand, and as you tell the Story or the memory you would laugh or smile. We've all seen people do that. Or if it's a sad memory, sometimes people tell a story and they cry. Right? So, so now we're actually using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind. And then from there, now we've got repetition and emotion. The third step we have to take is we record ourselves saying it out loud. And then we have to listen back for 21 days. It takes 21 days at least to build strong enough neural networks that are going to stick. And we do it in a suggestible state, which means when your subconscious mind is really open to absorbing information, which is the first hour that we wake up, the last hour before we go to bed after a meditation, breath work, any of those things because our brain is producing more alpha and theta brain waves. So now you have three steps. It's really easy. This is our first pillar of healing. It's like, what are your core wounds? Find the opposite 10 pieces of memory to support the new idea. I'm good enough cause I was a good friend two days ago. I'm good enough because. And get really specific. Cause each memory will elicit those emotions and images. And then we record ourselves saying it, listen back, feel about it, visualize about it, and it actually rewires your core wounds.

[B]

I mean, I love that. That's why I'm so not a fan of the toxic positivity and everything's amazing and good vibes only. It's like if your subconscious doesn't genuinely believe that it's safe, that there are good things happening, that all is right in the world, it's not going to project that out. What's going to happen is you have an incongruence, you want to be positive and all that. That's why for sake I hate if he wanted to, he would. Because it doesn't take into account the subconscious, the deeper ro layers. And I feel like that's what's missing, right. When we chalk everybody up to a bumper sticker, we lose out on the minutia and the nuance and the actual neuroscience of how our brains work. Because I didn't really know any of that. Okay, so we have that first step, right? We understand that now take it away. What step? What's the next step? Where are we going? Because I'm on this ride with you.

[A]

Okay. Second step is we have to look at. And it's a beautiful exercise to do. It's a little heart wrenching, but it's good. Depending on what your childhood was like, so I get people to write down mom and dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On a piece of paper. Draw a nice line right through the middle. And then I want people to sit down and be like, okay, what are the greatest unmet needs I had from each person in childhood? And there's this beautiful quote by Gabor Matthew, and he summarizes this really well. He says, trauma are the things that that happened that shouldn't have happened. That's the obvious. The abuse, all that kind of stuff. That's what imprints core wounds. But trauma are also the things that didn't happen that needed to happen. So you didn't get a parent who was present, or you had a parent who wasn't safe and didn't protect you, or you had a parent who you didn't feel seen or connected to. So what we do is we find out what those things were. Wherever we have deeply unmet needs from childhood, there's grief. So we actually carry this sense of grief from those things forward into our lives. And then those are the very things that we're like, oh, my partner, you're gonna do this for me. You're gonna fix this wound. And that's not how it's ever gonna work. So what I get people to do is write, okay, here are the deepest unmet needs from dad. You're the deepest unmet needs from Mom. And I really believe. This is, like, so cliche, but it's so true. Healing happens when we become our own parents, when we re parent these things in relationship to self. So what I get people to do so that we actually build neural network so it becomes our new set point is those times where we're, like, so anxious or needy and we want somebody else to do it for us. Those are things we have to give to ourselves the most. So I get people to be like, okay, what are the deepest unmet needs from dad? We have to start meeting him in relationship to self for 21 days. When you start driving a car, you get in a car and you're like, what the heck is going on? Like, steer the wheel, look in the rear mirror. Like, do all these things turn on my signal. And it feels very mechanical and it feels weird, and, like, this is what this will feel like to people. But then you do it and you get used to it, and then it becomes your new baseline. And then you get in your car, you don't even think about it. You listen to a podcast, you listen to music, you talk on the phone. And this is what we're trying to do, is we're not trying to keep prolonging these periods of grief where you felt so unseen as a child and now you don't know how to see yourself or be in your own body or connect to your own emotions. You're trying to meet these needs on a daily basis for 21 days. It gets patterned in. You're firing and wiring it, and now it's something you naturally do. So, for example, if somebody felt really emotionally disconnected from in childhood, good, you're going to learn to emotionally connect to yourself. Maybe that's through a mindfulness practice where you notice what's going on in your body. Maybe that's from setting an alarm on your phone every three hours to be like, what am I feeling? What do I need? Like, trying to check in with yourself. Maybe it's journaling in the morning and evening, things that are connecting you to you. But as you do it across 21 day cycles, it has to be every day. And we have to really be present and invested. And what ends up taking place is we are filling this void of grief from things we didn't get access to in childhood. And then you'll see people at day like 15 or 20, they're like, oh, I noticed what I was feeling today. Oh, I realized this today. And they're emotionally connected to themselves because they've actually wired it in. And that's where we start to really heal. On that second pillar, for me, what

[B]

changed the game with that is like doing yoga, right? And it's so, it's, it's basic and I know people listening might be like,

[A]

I don't want to do that.

[B]

And it's like, no, I sat my ass down, I meditated every single day for 10 minutes just to understand what are. Like you said, what are my thoughts? What am I thinking? What's coming up for me, because I saw somebody on thread said, I'm self aware, I don't need therapy. And I was like, the you don't. If you think self awareness is all it takes for you to heal, you are gravely mistaken. You can be as self aware as anybody else, but that doesn't mean you're implementing that, doesn't mean you're actually making the changes. And that doesn't mean that you're making the choices that align with the person that you want to become. The only difference between me, you, and anybody listening are the choices that we make every single day. Outside of the obvious of like, where you're from and who you are and the fundamentals of you as a person. Systemically but outside of that, it's the choices that we make. And I find that a lot of people are so resistant to just trying something. I've been to, for me, Wim Hof every single morning for 10 minutes. Me and Ryan have been doing that. Now we're doing this like 21 day, nervous system reset. But nonetheless, we have a routine because we don't sleep in the same bed. And so for me, I can't. That's a me thing. And so he comes in the morning, he lets Kobe into the room, he lays next to me, we talk for about 10 minutes, we kind of get it all out. We do Wim Hof and then we get the day started. And I've. I've seen it's uncomfortable and I don't like it, but I've seen that it expands my capacity so that throughout the day I'm like, I got this dude. Like, I've even noticed I'm so in touch with my body. Today I got bitchy. I started getting. I was like, I'm tired. I felt like a 6 year old. I looked at my blood sugar was crashing when you really. And this is coming from the girl that used to be so unaware, I didn't even know what was happening in my body. I didn't know what I was doing. And my point being is that it's not just about the repetition, but it's the intentionality behind it. That's what I'm hearing you say is like, how are you feeling? What are you feeling? And even for anybody listening, if it feels, even if you're like, I don't know, what are the unmet needs? Something that even helped me was to go, okay, who did I go to when I was sad, right? Like, who. When I came home from school and I got bullied, where did I go? I went alone in my room. Okay, Sabrina, why'd you go alone in your room? Couldn't handle it, Daca.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

That's your unmet need, right? Like, they couldn't handle it. They didn't have the bandwidth, they didn't have the capacity. That doesn't make anybody right or wrong. But what it also does. And here's the beautiful thing. The more that we understand the wounds, the, the traumas, the triggers, the more we understand other people and we take it less personally because something I actually said today on a show that I was like, when we villainize everybody in our lives, right, it's the avoidant and the avoidant, and they're the terrible ones, you know what happens when we make everyone else the villain, we're the victim. And when I'm the victim of my story, everything's happen me, woe is me. But when I can take radical accountability and say, that's their journey, they are flooded, they're going through their thing, I don't have to excuse the behavior. I can say, what are my choices? And I'm no longer a victim and I'm actually leading my life and I'm driving the car in the direction I want to go.

[A]

That's so beautifully said.

[B]

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[A]

Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress.

[B]

Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch.

[A]

Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture

[B]

when you tear open that envelope.

[A]

It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. The other thing that's a really good way, if people are like, I don't know what my unmet needs are is to look at like in your relationships. What are you always trying to get like, what are you always going to people for? Where do you feel like, desperate if you don't get it? And maybe it's like that anxiety you need to have that like validation or approval or support. But people who always struggle with looking for external approval really struggle to approve of themselves internally. They don't actually show up and be like, okay, here are my wins. Here's the things I'm proud of, here's the things I'm doing well. They never pause and they're putting themselves down. So usually the things you're always trying to source externally, especially in your closest relationships are the things you have to learn to practice giving to yourself. And what that does in turn is it allows people to stop. And I, I think there's this like, we get this conditioning from like romantic movies or like Disney movies or whatever it is. And it's as if, like, oh, somebody's just gonna come along and be your hero and save everything for you. And it's like, that's not how it works. And that's actually, that's not how healthy relationships work either. Healthy relationships happen when we end up becoming again like our own parent or our own hero. We start meeting our needs halfway. What's really interesting is the subconscious mind can't properly receive from other people things that are not part of its comfort zone. So for example, if you look at somebody who's like anxiously attached to. They go into relationships and they're like, I need validation, I need approval. They get it and it feels really good initially. And then they start, their subconscious starts rejecting it. Cause it's not a part of its comfort zone. And the subconscious equates comfort to familiarity and safety and thus survival. So we're always trying to get back there. So what ends up happening is they'll be like, wait, do they really mean it? Like, oh, are they, are they just being nice? Or they do to everybody and they start doubting the approval that they're getting. And it's almost as if, like, there's a hole in your bucket. Like somebody pours in the approval, it feels great, but then it leaks out. So truly, us being able to resource our own needs is so important. And we can't have functional relationships without it. We put too much pressure on the other person to do it for us. And that fosters resentment, long term and codependency.

[B]

Oh, I see it all the time on the Internet, right? I saw something the other day, I started to Ryan and he was like, you gotta be kidding. It was a guy that Tweeted on threads and tweeted, and here I am. He said it on threads. And it was like, if they go, if they even text you back in 5 hours, but in 30 minutes later they post a story, then 4 hours minus 30 minutes equals blocked. And I was like, whoa. I said, first of all, that is the worst advice I've heard. And I said, that is really rigid black and white. Very myopically viewed. Because what we're saying is my lived experience is the only one that's important and yours doesn't matter and nobody else's does. But what I say goes. And I see we. We see that often with the attachment style conversation. And I appreciate that you're not. So, like, let's only talk about that because I hear it all the time of like, oh, well, some people I'm anxious, some people I'm avoidant. It's like, that's, that's not. You're not disorganized in that, right? Like, that's not what that means. Back on. Because you know what? I'm gonna fucking rabbit hole this. But let's get back because I want to know step three. I want to go through this, the stages, because I think this is the meat and potatoes. Because every day people ask me, what do I do? Where do I start? And this is where you start.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. 100%. The third thing is that we have to learn to regulate our nervous system. So this sounds like such a. An interesting. People do a lot of this stuff in the world right now, and it drives me a little bit nuts. I'll be honest. People come to me and be like, I've done a Somatic Experiencing certification, which I've done, and it's a beautiful certification. And I'm a big believer in polyvagal theory. And they'll be like, I. I know how to regulate. But then they didn't do the first two pillars, so they have all these core wounds, they have all these unmet needs, and then they get triggered all throughout the day, and then they regulate and then they do the somatic work, and then they get triggered three hours later. And then they regulate. Or then they'll do things like, oh my gosh, I'm triggered. Like, I need space so I can go regulate. And it's like, okay, like, we don't want to be in a position. And this was a really important part of my own healing from addiction. First was like, you can't be in a position where you, you use all these band aids. Like, Somatic experiencing is really Powerful, really important. Nervous system regulation is really important. It's definitely trending on the Internet right now. But that actually has to be secondary because if you actually look at the mechanics of what's happening, by the time your nervous system is dysregulated, you either had unmet needs first, which caused you to feel negatively emotion, like negative emotions. And then those negative emotions signal to your body. If you've elevated cortisol or norepinephrine or adrenaline, that signals to your body to move from parasympathetic to sympathetic nervous system. And then we do the somatic experiencing to put pull ourselves back into parasympathetic that like rest and digest nervous system mode. But it's like, then you're just gonna go through that all day. Or even worse, if you have a belief that's triggered, I give people this acronym, btea. If I have a belief, let's say I have a core belief in childhood where I'm like, I'm not good enough. And I didn't work through that. Then if I were to go into like a big networking event full of people, I might be like, oh, I'm not interesting enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not cool enough, I'm not funny enough, whatever it is. So beliefs create all these patterns of thought, almost like tree branches springing off of a tree trunk. Then how do we feel when we're thinking those things? Well, then we have all these like stressful emotions. Those emotions then again signal to our sympathetic nervous system, like, hey, come online. Because when you're feeling stressed, you all this cortisol and then your body goes into the self protection mode. And then people are like, good, regulate myself nervous is a regulation. And it's like, okay, that's good. But like, do you want to go through your life band aiding all the time? And for me, that was drugs. It was like, oh, I feel dysregulated. Pop a pill. And. And it's like, okay, that's not functional. That's not. That's not dealing with root cause enough.

[B]

No.

[A]

So our third pillar is nervous system regulation. But that's why it's number three, is that we got to do the deep underlying inner work first. But then we have to teach our body that we're safe.

[B]

It's like, you know, you see those videos of like pull on your ear for 30 seconds and you regulate. And it's like, like, here's also another

[A]

thing that I learned. I really don't like that.

[B]

I don't like that stuff.

[A]

Right clicky.

[B]

It's the same clickbait, right? It's the same. If you wanted to, he would of of pop psychology. But what I learned was as my, with my functional medicine doctor and everything, she was like, okay, we need to down regulate. Like I'm. Wait, I was. I found out with my Dutch test, I woke up with tons of cortisol free cortisol in the morning. And so then she was like, okay, we're gonna PEMF and we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this. Then what happened? The pendulum swung. I was down regulating too much that then all of a sudden I was becoming like, super. All of a sudden I was like, wait, why am I not feeling well? And she' now we want the other extreme. We can't have you downregulate that much because now your body is like, wait, wait, wait, why are we so calm? Like, this doesn't make any sense. And so I think what I see it as with, to your point, regulating my, like, it's such. It makes so much sense because for me, my journey was understand the thoughts and the patterns and the core beliefs. Then that went into, okay, now can I, like, how can I challenge those? What can I do about that? How can I start to understand them? Then I learned how to regulate my nervous system. That came in six years into my healing journey because I was introduced to someone and she, you know, opened up. But now I even learn. I'm like, okay, here's the other thing. And I'm sure you'll understand what I'm about to say. Regulating your nervous system doesn't make it all go away. All that means is that your body's like, okay, we can access choice now. Like, we're here. Head is where our feet are. Let's get into it. Because that's what drives me insane is this misconception that regulating means like, I'm fine now. Yeah, if only you and I would be millionaires if that was the case. Okay, so we regulate now where do we go?

[A]

So and, and I'll give people like a little tool here because I think we get a lot of like, okay, you could do the obvious. You could do meditation and mindfulness practices and breath work and all these things. And that's great. And it does teach your body you're safe. And that is an important part of healing. And it's something to do repeatedly over time because it teaches your body what it's like to be in parasympathetic and to attune to oneself a really good exercise that I find that actually is very helpful in this pillar is. It's called somatic processing. So there was a study I read years ago, and they're basically teaching this without having a frame framework around it. And they took these participants and they put them into FMRI scanners, and they scanned their brains, and they. They told them, hey, tell us, like, you're really triggering events. Like, the really, like, unprocessed stuff. Like, people would be like, oh, my husband cheated on me 13 years ago, and da, da, da. Or people would be like, oh, my gosh, I caught my parent doing this thing. You know, all these, like, really triggering events. And they had them. As they were recalling these triggering events, they scanned their brains, and they found that all this brain activity drained essentially, out of the prefrontal cortex and neocortex regions and into the reptilian brain, which is like, you know, when you're triggered, you're like the reptilian version of yourself. You're like the animal version of yourself.

[B]

Feral cat.

[A]

Exactly. So they go through this, and they're like, okay, now that you're really triggered, they're like, stop telling us the story. And instead, I just want to hear from you what emotions you're feeling, what it feels like in your body. Tell me the sensations. And so people say, okay, I feel angry, and it feels like there's heat in my chest and down my arms. And then they would tell them, okay, and, like, stay in that and get them to observe the sensations for, like, 30 to 90 seconds. And in doing that, brain activity will come back up to the prefrontal cortex. So it's funny because in, like, Buddhist communities, they're like, oh, be in witnessing consciousness. Like, and it's like, where like, neuroscience and spirituality just overlap. They're telling you the same things, which, to me is like, when you found truth. And so that's a really great practice. It's like, if you're triggered, rather than going into the story, practice just noticing the sensations in your body. Getting grounded. That can be a really helpful thing. And it teaches you to move out of sympathetic and back to parasympathetic more quickly. Or at least is a good assisting support in doing that. Yeah.

[B]

Because when, if you're dysregulated, the last thing I'm gonna do is be like, close your eyes and try to be Zen. You're like, please, if there's a tiger running after me, I'm not gonna be

[A]

like, let me just tap in.

[B]

I think the somatic stuff, I do that with my, like, any clients I have, I usually try to get them to stop. And I'm like, no, no, no. Describe the sensation. And you can see they want to

[A]

get out of it.

[B]

And they're like, I'm feeling. I'm really annoyed that he didn't answer. I'm like, that's not you. I asked you the sensation. And I've had plenty of people like, I can't. I don't know. I don't know. And I'm like, move out. I don't know. Out of the way, to the side. Basic, primary emotion. Is there a color? Is there a shape? Is there a texture? To this day, I will say a hundred out of a hundred, a hundred percent of the time. And you'll know exactly that. When I have people focus on, like, what is it? By the time the 90 to a minute, right? Joel Taylor. By the time the 90 seconds is done, they're like, oh, it's not as bad. Oh, it doesn't feel as intense. I'm like, because you. You are not going to feel better unless you feel.

[A]

Feel.

[B]

And that's really scary because for me, as a kid, feeling meant I wasn't safe. It meant that I had to actually acknowledge that my father didn't have the capacity to be the dad I needed. He was incredibly abusive. Whether it be verbally, physically, right? Like, my brother's drug problem wasn't just like, aha. What? That's so crazy. It was symptomatic of the origin story of, like, he was the. He was the. Oh, child, right?

[A]

Like the.

[B]

The zero. The patient zero that everybody thought, look, look, that's a thing. But it was the red herring, right? It was taking you away from everything else. And so if we didn't understand that, we're not going to be able to be able to do anything else that was too threatening to me now. Now holding space for my emotions. It is scary. But that's the point. That's the point of it is as humans, we have to be robust. And if we're only going to say, I only want the good, Right? How many times you've heard that of, like, I only. Well, like, why is my relationship. I had one person actually write in and said her partner broke up with her because he said, we fought. And she was trying to explain to him, like, that's okay, like, we're allowed to disagree. And he was like, no, no, absolutely not. That means it's not a good relationship. It's like, like, I. I understand what you mean. Excessive fighting. No, Repair is a problem, but it's meant to happen so that we can see the deeper parts.

[A]

And truly, like, there's a lot of avoidant people who believe that, which is sad, that they think, okay, like, fighting just means it's not working. And it's like, no, no, no. Conflict itself is not good or bad. It's how we handle conflict that becomes healthy or unhealthy. And it's like those dynamics or times where somebody is like, no, no conflict. We can't do it. That's a problem. It's like, no, no. You just haven't learned how to navigate conflict yet.

[B]

Which. The other side of the coin, right? The anxious think that, like, oh, that's normal, right? Like, oh, we're hot and cold. We're up and down. We're. And you're like, no, no, no, no. We don't want that as a baseline.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So fourth pillar. Fourth pillar.

[B]

Let's go. We're gonna get through this.

[A]

Yeah. Fourth pillar is at this point, it's communicating. And this was, like, what I learned. It was so interesting. When I met my husband, I'd already been working with people for a couple years, and I. I thought, oh, I'm so healed. I'm so good. I got this. Oh, my gosh. Because relative to where I was, I had come a long way, but I was really in a bad spot to start off with, sort of like, okay, came a long way, thought I was good, and realized, like, oh, my gosh, I have no idea how to communicate in a relationship. Like, I have no idea. I. And. And I remember, you know, dating and having things come up and just being like, oh, sweep them under the rug. And then I would just pull away. Right? And when I was fearful, avoidant before that, I would get, like, really mad in past relationships or really frustrated or it was a lot more chaotic. But at this point in time, I did a lot of the other work, so just kind of like, pull away, pull away. And I was like, wait, this isn't like, yeah, I'm expecting him to figure these things out, know these things about me, and, like, I haven't even communicated or expressed them. And I started really working with myself on communication, then eventually learning all these tools and frameworks and working with other people on it in my practice at the time. And it was so interesting because people would come in, and as I started to work on, like, unpacking their communication, people would come in, and all the time they'd be like, thais, my spouse doesn't listen to Me, my wife doesn't listen to me, my husband ignores me, da, da, da. And over time I realized, like, no, no, 95% of the time that that's happening, it's that that person has no idea how to communicate. Like, I once had no idea how to communicate. And what I realized is there's a few things that people do really wrong. There's like a few major ones, but I can just give a couple. The first one is people have no idea how to positively frame. So I was really guilty of this. I used to be like, oh, you don't care about me. You never spend enough time with me. Instead of being like, hey, I'm feeling disconnected, I would really love to spend more quality time together. Let's plan a fun date night on the weekend. And so the first thing is like, if you don't positively frame, nobody hears what you're saying. No, like, people are like, oh, you're criticizing me. And that's all they hear. And every criticism, there's actually a need. But if you don't recognize that, then like, you're all your life, your criticism, your communication is going to fall in deaf ears. And one of the most crazy and like life changing things for me is when I started communicating properly, I was like, oh my God, all these people around me, like, really care about me. Like, oh, I say a need and I say it like that. And people like want to meet it and show up. And it was actually very healing to be on the receiving end of that. And I'd see that in so many people's lives afterwards. So first thing is positive framing. Second thing, and I would see this all the time in client practice. People be like, oh, I need support. They go home, they come back the next week. And the wife would be like, my husband didn't support me. And the husband be like, I took out the trash, I did the dishes. And she'd be like, oh, I needed you to like, hug me more often. And so the second pillar is like, you gotta like actually paint a picture of what you expect this to look like. And when people don't do that properly, it's a mess. Like, you can say, oh, I want support, or I want these things. And people are like, okay, what is that? Like, I have no idea. Or a lot of times with anxious and avoidant. You see the, the, the anxious person's like, well, I want more time with you. And the avoidant person's like, oh, good, I'll sit with them for 10 minutes right now.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Shout out to Ryan Love him, but it's true.

[B]

He's just like, okay, but I listened for like 10 minutes. You're like, oh, that's not what I meant. Like, the positive reframing is so important. First of all, using I statements. But second of all, it's the same I feel when people are like my avoidant. And I'm like, first of all, they're not your anything. Would you want someone to be like, my anxious? You're like, what the did you just call me? Like, you're reduce. It's reductive, right? You're reducing me down to a name. And then what do they hear is like. Like, you and you and you don't do this. It's like. Or instead I feel this. And if somebody's going to argue with my feelings, we can have a conversation about that not being the relationship I'm in. But I think that there's something really beautiful and strong and like, to the point being, notice how that was point four, because point three is you do need to regulate to process so that I don't go and be like, you said this and I don't like that. Instead, I can say, hey, when you said this, I shut down and I felt really disconnected from you. Moving forward. Could you say that?

[A]

Yes, 100%. Exactly. And that is when people actually hear you. That's when people know how to show up for you and then you can properly vet how they show up.

[B]

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[A]

If you're like, oh, this person's not meeting my needs. I'm gonna leave the relationship. And you didn't know how to communicate your needs or do it properly first. You never really gave somebody a chance. And I was a fearful avoidance. I'll speak for myself, But I used to do this thing all the time where I'd be like, I'm trying so hard in a relationship. I'd be very giving and very generous, and then I would be like, oh, I'm not getting back what I'm expecting. I'm out of here. Like, that's it. And I would just leave. And I did this all the time where I just pushed somebody away or threatened to leave a relationship. And I did this when I was young, before I healed and before I got sober and all these things. But, like, I would just do that like crazy. And I realized later, like, oh, a part of my own healing. And this is for anybody else who does that is like, before I just, like, jet and run away or threaten to run away or push away, I better be, like, saying what my truth is and actually taking up space and communicating my needs. Because if I don't, I'm just expecting somebody to mind read by default. I'm not doing any of my own work, and then I'm pushing somebody away on whatever pretenses, like they were supposed to be this character in my story and just show up and get it all the time. Like, that's not possible. And so that was really powerful for me as a person. And that was the big thing we ended up sharing in our program. And so I'd get people to be like, go through and actually say what they need. And then you can vet. If somebody never shows up and never tries, that's a different conversation. But if somebody's trying and they're really making an effort and then they forget, sometimes the next part of our communication is like, you have to see your needs through, because everybody has decades of different conditioning than we do. So what you might need in a relationship, Ryan might need something else, and vice versa. Like, everybody's like that. And so sometimes people will be like, and I did this in my own healing journey at the beginning is I would be like, I communicated my need once. It was four months ago, and they forgot today, four months later. How dare they?

[B]

I hear that all the time of like, well, I already said it. It's like, say it again.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Say it again for them. And not an annoying. Like, obviously, right. If you don't see progress and you're like, dude, all right, I've said it to you 18 times this week. You're not doing it. But people are allowed to be human.

[A]

Yes, a hundred percent. And people are not going to if they have learned that relationships look a certain way because they grew up in a different household than you did. And they didn't see people, you know, be as validating or be as vulnerable, whatever it might be. And then you saw only that or way more of that. When we try to merge our inner worlds together and get, like, into relationship with somebody, it's going to literally require that you learn how to talk things through. And that's gonna require that you see your needs through and remind people sometimes. And so having the conversation a few times is okay, and it's acceptable. And it's actually part of one person being able to become a good communicator. So that's a really important piece of the communication. And the very last thing is when you're asking for your needs to be met. And you probably see this all the time, too, when you're asking for your needs to be met. When somebody meets them, if they make a little mistake and they don't do it perfectly, you can't go criticize them. You can't be like, you folded the laundry wrong. Yeah.

[B]

It's like. And I'll do that sometimes. I'll gently be like, hey, babe. Or like, he'll. You know, when Ryan, like, I'll ask him to make me lunch. And instead of being like, I didn't like this, I'll be like, hey, I thank you so much for making me lunch. I don't really love the chicken. And that's not a knock against you. I don't love the flavor. Moving forward, could we try something different? Because I. But I really appreciate this because I want people to understand. Like, no, no, I'm not being. But I even say I'm like, how would you know if I don't tell you? Because then I'm just people pleasing my way through.

[A]

Exactly. And that's a big piece. So, like, be validating. And this is the example I give. It's so similar to that. That's so funny. It's like, if somebody's doing the laundry and they put it in the wrong place, be like, hey, thank you so much for doing the laundry. Like, I really appreciate it. You heard Me. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Just for future reference, I usually put it here next time, and that's it. And then somebody's like, okay, you validated them. You heard them. You can still get feedback. And you do it in a positively framed way. It's not criticism. But so often people are like, God, you did the laundry wrong. And then people and I would see this couples time and time and time again. The other person's like, why am I bothering? Like, I'm gonna get criticized when I. When I ask for or when I do something. So I get criticized either way. Why am I trying? And it's just so defeating to be on the receiving end of. So that's a big fifth pillar of communication.

[B]

I see that with the boundaries conversation.

[A]

Right?

[B]

The like, well, I said my boundary and they crossed it. And, like, that's not how that works.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Boundary. That's. No one's crossing it. Like, you cross your own. But I see that often of like, well, I said it. Like, I said, I'm not doing this. And it's like, again, some people might forget. Like, Ryan might have told me something. I'm like, I'm sorry. Where was I when you told me that? Because I wasn't on planet Earth in that moment. Right. Like, maybe I had my period. Maybe I was tired. Maybe I hadn't slept that night. And again, I think what we're looking for progress, not perfection when it comes to. Because not everybody that's listening is in a relationship. Right. And it's like, this is also the pillars of dating.

[A]

Human.

[B]

Human being.

[A]

A human being. Friendships, family, relationships, everything. Yes, relationships.

[B]

Right. The overarching doesn't have to be romantic. So fifth pillar that I just teed you up on. Boundaries. Take it away.

[A]

Boundaries. So boundaries. And this is what was really important. Again, I learned a lot of these things myself. First, I was kind of my own guinea pig before doing this work with people for 15 years.

[B]

Life story.

[A]

But, yeah. But I would read all the books about boundaries. When I started learning about boundaries, I was like, boundaries, Boundaries. Wow. I suck at boundaries. I had what I call the fearful avoidant boundary cycle, where I would be boundary list, because it would be really generous and over giving. And then I would be like, oh, my gosh, I feel taken advantage of because I would pour into everything. Yeah. And I'd be like, okay, here are all my boundaries. And I'd do them really intensely. And then I would go back. Then I would feel guilty about my behavior and go back to being boundaryless again. And it was just Like a round and a round in a cycle. So I started reading about boundaries. I was like, okay, I need this. And I read, like, four books on boundaries, read all these published papers about boundaries, all these things I could find. And then I would get into this trap, which I see with people all the time, where suddenly you're in the moment, it's real time, and you're like, oh, this is a time I have to say my boundary. And then, like, you just can't do it. You clam up. I remember getting in situations where I'd be stuck in a conversation. I'd be like, at the end of a really long workday, and I'd be like, I gotta get outta here. I gotta go. And then I would just, like, stay there and, like, not leave. And I'd be like, this is a time for boundary. Why don't I do it? And so what I realized is that if you wanna do boundaries, it has to be at the subconscious level. And it can't just be like this intellectualized thing. And so for me, the first step was like, okay, what do I make setting a boundary mean? Or what am I afraid will happen? And when I looked back in my own childhood, I was like, oh, if I said a boundary would be punished? And so I'm like, oh, a boundary makes me unsafe. So I had to first rewire that story and see how boundaries make me safe. See that? Get lots of evidence and emotion and imagery for 21 days. Then I was like, okay, very wired in. Boundaries are a safe thing. That's good. And the next thing is, I was like, I had no idea how to set boundaries in just a normal way. So I had to practice exposure work, which is like. Like small boundary setting and incremental doses over time with easy people. First, you can't just go to, like, the biggest, scariest person, your narcissistic boss or whoever it is, your very first time, and titrate it. And you do it enough times and you get your. Like, it becomes a part of your comfort zone. So did that. And then all of a sudden, I became good at setting boundaries. And it was, like, natural to be like, oh, no, I don't want to do that. Or like, oh, sorry, I'm going to have to leave early. Thanks. Like, it was so much easier to do those things and have those conversations without it being this like, oh, my God, it's such a big deal. Or I have to say my boundaries so intensely. And so that's how we have to do boundaries. It has to be at the subconscious level of mind. You need 21 days of doing it repeatedly. Because if we don't, then we're not actually conditioning the patterns. And it's still this like intellectualized thing. You gotta remove your fears around it first and then actually make sure you're doing exposure work. And over time that embeds it into your subconscious and then it becomes a natural set point and that becomes the fifth major pillar.

[B]

No is my favorite word. It is I love. I used to never. I used to never. I have stories I've. I've shared before of like the dude that would text me at 2am, come over and I'd be like, okay. Like I would be on my way because I was terrified. If I said no, what would that mean? I lose you, you're not going to be there for me then that I am the problem. Until I started to realize, like, wait a minute. And it was very incremental. It was saying it and then realizing I'm. I'm okay, I'm not dead. I. Nothing happened to me. Like, I'm fine. My life goes on and building it slowly. And I think that that's the biggest thing. Everything that you're describing, I think a lot of people want to hear because I get it every day. How do I do this fast? What is a quick. How can I get rid of it? I get this every single day when I'm on Tik Tok Live. How do I get rid of my anxious attachment? And it's like, oh, no, no. If you think you're gonna get rid of it, baby doll, let me let you know. You learn to live with it. You heal the wound, but it doesn't go away. I'd be lying if I said I woke up every day being the most secure person. Someone could say something mean to me. And I cry because I'm a human. But what we learn is capacity. And then to reframe the stories. Even Ryan actually caught me the other day. I was sending an email and I over explained I was saying something. I was breaking up with somebody. It was like a work thing. And I went into like, you know, this isn't. The scheduling doesn't work with me. Instead of putting a period, I was like, because you know, my schedule's really crazy and I don't really know my consistency. And Ryan went, uh, delete and put the period. And I was like, you're right. Okay, you're right. And like sure enough, it was well received. They were like, totally understand. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that we got to do this.

[A]

This.

[B]

Take care. What I've learned really about setting boundaries is like if you're going to set a boundary and somebody is going to have an overreaction, right? The pinch doesn't match the ouch. Like if I say, no, I don't want to go out to dinner and your response is like, what Polly? And you start putting me down or mocking me or making fun of me. That is the clearest indication that the boundary was not just necessary but mandatory. 100 because people show you who they are, please believe them. And oftentimes like, I see this all the time of like, I don't want a relationship to me that is setting a boundary with somebody of like, like I'm telling you off the bat, I don't want this. I saw somebody post today about like a thread that happened between texts. The guy said, I told you this when we met. I wasn't ready for a relationship. And it doesn't feel like you're respecting that. And now I'm getting a yelled at because I don't want to be with you when I've told you from the beginning that's not what I wanted. And that's okay, right?

[A]

Very fair.

[B]

That's very fair. And I know rejection sensitivity and we start getting all into our h. But we can also remove ourselves and say, what was my part in that? That my part in that was. I didn't listen. I didn't respect what this person said. I thought I could change them. Yes, that's okay. That's human. But that doesn't make it okay.

[A]

And I think in those situations, if that's the case, you have to have follow up conversations. Like if you're like two months in, you might be like, hey, I know you said two months ago you didn't want a relationship. I'm starting to feel like there's a connection here beyond maybe just something superficial. Are we moving in that direction? Like have that conversation. Check back and things can change. Have the conversation. If you're just assuming then you're angry because you're just assuming that you would change the person or that they would change their mind or your intention or relationship to it from the jump was to change their mind. That's where unfortunately there's a huge boundary violation that takes place there.

[B]

A hundred percent. Okay, so we went over the five.

[A]

Yeah. So there's a sixth bonus pillar.

[B]

Please tell me.

[A]

Yeah, so six bonus pillars. How to rewire your behavior. Okay, so this came, this came from a lot of like my own behaviors at the beginning. But whenever we have a behavior that we're taking part in, if we judge it consciously as bad, if we're doing it, it's because our subconscious sees it as good. So there's this sort of, like, disconnect that's taking place. It's a form of cognitive dissonance. For example, if somebody goes into relationships and they're angry all the time, let's say they're always yelling or raising their voice consciously. They might be like, oh, my God, I don't want to yell at my wife and kids, or I don't want to yell at my partner. But subconsciously, they're doing it for a reason. So there's two things that are happening. The behavior meets a hidden need, usually a need that we're starving for first. For example, people who struggle with anger issues, they actually are using anger as a subconscious strategy to feel seen, heard, understood, to set a boundary and to take their power back. And so what happens is anger does that all in one fell swoop, right? You're like, oh, I yell. And then it's like, I get seen and heard. I'm yelling. I'm getting bigger, I'm getting louder. I get understood. I finally say all the things I wasn't saying. I set a boundary with my anger because my anger pushes somebody away. So your subconscious is getting a hidden need met, number one. But number two, because that's become a strategy that you had to use when you were starving for those needs, you actually have more positive than negative emotional associations wired into the behavior itself. Oh, yeah. So we have to actually rebalance that. So what I get people to do is when they're trying to change a behavior is first be like, well, what are the hidden needs it's meeting? Let me figure out healthier ways of getting those needs met. So if it's anger, hey, let's practice, like, being vulnerable and communicating earlier about things instead of. Of old. Every person I ever worked with who had severe anger issues, they actually had vulnerability issues and boundary issues. And they weren't good at communicating. And so now anger becomes the thing that lets them get all those needs met. So the first thing is like, okay, what? And for people, it's different. Like, if somebody's like, oh, they emotionally overeat all the time, and they're, like, really struggling with food. Okay, well, what. What are your associations to food? Well, your first time you're. You're experiencing food is when you're being breastfed, when there's a tremendous amount of oxytocin being produced, which is the bonding neurochemical, and you feel safe and you're cradled to food, usually equals safety, comfort, connection. So we all have these, like, needs to these unhealthy behaviors. So we define those first, come up with better ways to get those needs met. But secondly, we actually have to wire in the costs of the old behavior and the benefits of the new behavior. So what that looks like is somebody sitting down and being like, what are all the costs of raising my voice every day? What are all the costs? Like, what does it look like? And the more emotion and imagery, the better, because it gets to the subconscious mind. So we want to be like, okay, what are all the costs of, like, what. What is my. My wife look at me like when I. When I yell at her? What does my husband do when I push him away that way? What do my kids do when ABC happens? And so we want to get a ton of, like, emotions, images, all the cost of the behavior because the behavior first got wired in, usually because maybe as a child, you would have a temper tantrum and then your parents would give you candy and you're like, oh, okay, anger equals good. Anger equals I get these things met. So we've come up with updated strategies to get the needs met. Second thing we do is we go, okay, what are all the negatives of this behavior? We want 10 to 15 of them for repetition. What are all the positives of dropping this behavior, leaving this behavior behind? What would my life look like? How would my relationships improve? Then again, same thing. We record ourselves saying it out loud. Listen back. For 21 days, we're trying to actually ingrain and shift and change the stored subconscious emotional associations next to the behavior while getting the needs met in new ways. And it works profoundly for people actually shape shifting their behaviors.

[B]

God, that's so fucking cool. I love neuroplasticity. I think it's wild. And I mean, as you were talking with Ingram, I used to be so reactive. Holy shit. The second something happened, I would get big. I would scream, I would yell. And I think for me, it was definitely the scene component of like. Or I saw my dad do that, and I'm like, okay, so that's how people respect you, right? If you're a bull in a china shop, if you go in hard. And you know what changed it for me was like, it sounds so simple, but I gave myself permission to not. And I know that sounds so rudimentary, but I started there, right? Like, of course, then the rest of the work continued. But I Needed to give myself permission to say, like, that's not okay. Like, you didn't enjoy that? You didn't like when he did that. That doesn't make you feel good. So then how are other people feel? Probably not great. You look like a nut job, Zohar. And so I really had to stop and say, like, you're also allowed to just. Sometimes Ryan will say something and I'll just look at him and I'm like, no, give me a minute. Like, I'm allowed to take this second, even a minute, sitting across from someone and say like, I've had it. We've had it. Where we're sitting in silence. And he's like, are you upset? And I'm like, I'm still processing this. I'm still trying to understand how I feel. And I'm like, literally, give me a minute, and then I can come back and say, okay. All right. So here's what just happened to me that's really human. But I think within everything that you've described that I love is like, you're giving people choices. You're allowing them to have the choice to make these changes. And I think that really is the most beautiful part. And here's the thing. 21 days. You said 21 days. You didn't say 21 years. You didn't say 21 months. You said 21 fucking days. So right now, what can we like, I always like to end with a tool of the week. Even though you gave an entire tool. But is there something maybe specific, specific, tangible, something small, a micro moment where somebody can get started now on that 21 day journey, is it the list? Is it something? Is it even just smiling? I don't fucking know. But I think a lot of people are stuck. Either they're. I'll give you the two scenarios. Either they stuck, they don't know where to start, or they've done so much work and they're like, but nothing is changing.

[A]

Yeah. And the reason that that happens, because if the work doesn't reach the subconscious, you can read all of the personal growth things under the sun and you're just going to go through the same succulent. And I get that because I spend time there. You know what I mean? Like, I was like, try the AA meetings and the NA meeting and all these things. But the first thing I would say, just the simplest is be like, pick one need. Like, what are you seeking so desperately from other people? And just practice giving that to yourself for 21 days and you'll just see that that huge shifting or moving of the needle from that one thing, and then it will give you momentum to be like, okay, let me plug into the other pillars and do work in those particular areas. And I always think too, like, I know, like there's. There's six pillars and they, you know, 21 days for. For some of the pillars and stuff like that. But. But it's always so much more work not to do the work, right? And I always tell people too, and. And it's kind of like tongue in cheek. But when you do this work, you get to consciously choose your subconscious patterns. When you don't, who's choosing your patterns,

[B]

mom or dad, probably, right?

[A]

And it's like, so mom and dad are still running your brain as an adult. And it's like, well, we have a conscious mind, so we can actually. Our conscious minds are logical thinking, analytical mind. We can actually go in and we can observe and we can use the tools and we can rewire and we can change those own things, our own programming and conditioning so we can become the person we want to be instead of the world or universe just choosing for us because of whatever family, household we got it born into and whatever childhood we had. Like you. Just because you were dealt that card of that hand of cards does not mean that that has to be your entire future. So worthwhile to go in and do that work, because it really changes everything.

[B]

Oh, that's what's funny. When people are like, it's hard. I'm like, bitch, choose your. You know what's really hard? Just taking the same thing. It is so exhausting waking up every day with this immense anxiety. I actually get excited when I have something new I can do. Like when my doctor's like, hey, your blood. Your results came back with this. We're going to do this. I'm like, yes, okay, give me something I can do, something I can at least implement, try. Even if that means sitting in stillness for a minute every single day. But it really, for me, I get excited about how much more can I grow. Because if this is it, unsubscribe, right? Like, if this is the best I could do until I take my last breath, I want to always be striving for better. And so I think it's a really beautiful practice of, like, choosing yourself is also implementing. This is trying. It is saying, like you said, people say I listen to every episode, but then they'll come back and be like, I've listened to all the episodes, but I still like, nothing's changing. And it's like listen baby, if you've listened to the hundred and whatever, how many at this point it was 200 episodes if not more at this point. By the time this comes out and nothing is sticking, then it sounds like subconscious and conscious mind are not connecting.

[A]

Yes, 100%.

[B]

Thais. This was so much fun.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. You're one of my favorite people. One of my favorite people.

[B]

I was like, I'm already thinking about the next episode. It's like a tattoo, right? You're getting one, you're thinking of the next. Where can people find you, work with you? Tell us more about the Personal Development School.

[A]

Plug in.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

So I [e-mail] There's a free attachment quiz that goes into all these different pillars of healing and people get sort of a personalized report. And then I'm on YouTube which is tyeeskibson personal developmentschool and on Instagram at the Personal Development School. Thank you for having me. You have the best podcast. Love it.

[B]

Thanks Gary. We'll link everything. But guys, thank you so much for sitting with us. I hope that you were able to take away something from this to really start to implement. It doesn't matter where the you are on the journey, like you're worthy and deserving and I hope you guys see that because we do. And so guys, don't forget, rate and review the show, share it with a friend, leave a comment, let me know what you think. Let me know what we want Thais to come back and talk about. She is the queen of attachment style conversations in a way that like we had her on first disorganized last year. I think it was already last year. So like let me know what you want us to get into because we're going to have her back on and I'm so excited guys. Until next time, babies. Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing, Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our Associate degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci.