"Being a Little Boy Is Now a Psychological Disorder" | Sage Steele Show | EP 90

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Sage Steele Show – EP 90: "Being a Little Boy Is Now a Psychological Disorder"
Air date: January 28, 2026
Host: Sage Steele | Guest: Dr. John Delony

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode revolves around the evolving challenges of parenting, masculinity, and family dynamics in the modern era. Sage Steele and Dr. John Delony, a bestselling author, mental health expert, and Ramsey Solutions personality, dig deeply into issues of modern boyhood, the shifting standards for men, generational legacies, the importance of vulnerability, forgiveness, marital evolution, and the vital but undervalued “toolkit” of life skills that children and parents need in today’s world. The show blends personal stories, social commentary, and practical advice in a candid, emotionally rich discussion.

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Major Discussion Points

1. Work, Identity, and the Cost of Ambition

• “My drug is work. I'm an addict… and I get a trophy. We're all barely hanging on.” (John, 00:00)
  John opens up about how culture rewards workaholism while punishing other addictions—a theme that threads through notions of identity, fulfillment, and societal expectations.

• The journey up the career ladder and its surprising aftermath.
  Sage details her climb to SportsCenter and the paradox of achieving a lifelong dream only to find unexpected challenges and new forms of fulfillment outside of TV.

  • “I thought I would miss it so much more than I do. I missed the adrenaline rush… but I found other ways.” (Sage, 02:53)

2. Parenting, Pain, and Generational Legacy

• Learning from Pain – “Don’t waste my pain.” (Sage, 05:08)
  Sage wants her kids to learn from her struggles rather than have her pain be for nothing, underscoring the repeated motif of purposeful struggle.

• The cost of success for the next generation.
  Both share personal anecdotes about how their children have grown stronger through adversity and how comfortable lives come at hidden costs (06:08-07:35).

3. Fathers, Tools, and Masculinity

• Toolkits and Failure Factories
  John describes how men often lack emotional and relational “tools,” leading to struggles as husbands and fathers:

  • “They want to be present at home. …They open their toolkit, and the tools aren’t in there. And so homes become a failure factory.” (John, 22:54 & 19:00)

• Generational healing and humility
  John celebrates the willingness to seek help for building new skills for bonding and emotional openness, breaking cycles handed down from stoic fathers and grandfathers (22:38).

4. Forgiveness and Blame

• Forgiveness as Freedom
  John shares a powerful college lesson:
  • “Forgiveness is the choice to …[say] I’m not carrying this anymore, and I’m going to set this part down.” (John, 23:23)
  • He emphasizes “blame fairly”—recognizing both the wounds and the gifts inherited from parents (24:37).

5. Little Boys as a ‘Disorder’: Education & Societal Shifts

• Pathologizing Boyhood
  John critiques how “being a little boy became a psychological disorder in many ways” (29:25), blaming rigid education for turning normal boy behavior into pathology.

  • “If a little boy is wiggly in class, there’s something wrong with his brain ... a good man can sit for eight hours in a classroom frozen, doing worksheets.” (John, 29:24)

• Gender, School, and Opportunity
  The effort to elevate girls by “squashing” boys led to a generation of disengaged men, with John expressing hope for more balanced approaches today (29:57-30:43).

6. Parenting in the Age of Technology & Loneliness

• “The kids haven’t changed. The parents have changed.” (John, 31:57)
  The duo explore how parental abdication, loneliness, and discomfort with being “the only one” enforcing boundaries have given way to harmful tech habits.
  Strategies such as collective “holding the line” with likeminded parents and the importance of adult friendships are discussed (34:13-36:35).

7. Boundaries, Safety, and Emotional Anchoring

• Structure and boundaries as love
  Both agree that, contrary to appearances, children crave boundaries and structure. Sage details her daughter’s appreciation for structure, even if she claims to “hate” it (39:18-39:49).

• Modeling emotional safety
  Sage reflects on feeling “unsafe” for years and how only recently, through her new marriage, has she internalized the importance of personal safety and letting down her guard (40:59-41:20).

• Children as Sponges
  John underscores that “kids watch you,” not just listen, so authentic modeling is essential (42:26-42:56).

8. Marriage, Loyalty, and Rebuilding After the Fall

• Marriage as Covenant, Not Contract
  Responding to “why stay and rebuild?” John’s answer:

  • “Because I said I would. …I made a covenant. …Till one of us is dead, this holds.” (John, 59:10-59:15)

• Rebuilding from ‘Ash’
  Both speak candidly about marital near-breakdowns, silent tactics, “violent with silence,” and the decision to start from scratch instead of walking away.

  • “The marriage we had is over. Are we going to rebuild… or call it?” (John, 56:34)

• The Power of Loyalty
  Only in recent years, John realizes the paramount value of loyalty in marriage (63:05-64:41).

9. Is Marriage Still Worth It?

• John’s search for data and meaning around whether marriage is “objectively good,” landing on the hope that his children see it as the “greatest thing I can do.” (65:42-66:55)

• Sage’s Late-in-Life Love Redo
  Sage shares movingly about remarrying, drawn from her parents' example and belief in partnership, safety, and showing her children love’s worth and resilience (68:38-73:17).

10. Vulnerability, Community, and Compassion

• Carrying Others’ Pain Without Becoming Hard

  • “I don’t want to sit with somebody when I’m hurting who’s thick-skinned. …I want to sit with somebody who will …hold it with me.” (John, 74:44-77:54)

• Maintaining Compassion for Self and Others

  • John’s “drug is work” analogy and advice to treat everyone with humility and compassion, reflecting the lessons learned from his parents and lifelong mentoring (77:54-79:35).

11. Bombing, Failure, and the Freedom of Vulnerability

• John recounts bombing at a comedy club, the humility it gives, and the way failing publicly leads to confidence and growth—including Tina, a NY comic, telling him:
  • “Now you’re one of us.” (Tina, 93:38)
• Freedom on the other side of fear
  • “It’s miserable, and then you just wake up the next day... And it’s this freedom. On the other side of what do you think the worst is going to happen.” (John, 94:53-95:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Please don’t waste my pain.” (Sage, 05:08)
• “Being a little boy became a psychological disorder in many ways.” (John, 29:32)
• “The kids haven’t changed. The parents have changed.” (John, 31:57)
• “Forgiveness is the choice to …[say] I’m not carrying this anymore.” (John, 23:23)
• “My house is free now... because I went to finally say, okay, I’m putting it all on the table…” (John, 52:49)
• “Because I said I would.” (John, 59:15)
• "The second nicest thing my son ever said...I can't say that, Dad, because I know it's not true." (John, 36:47)
• “Now you’re one of us.” (Tina, 93:38)
• “You treat everybody with compassion, because…My drug is work… and I get a trophy.” (John, 00:00; 77:54)
• “If I just get a couple of minutes with John, I can…” (John, on fans’ confessions, 65:17)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00-02:00 — Opening, work as identity, discussing transitions and ambitions
• 05:03-06:08 — Advice to next generation: pain, learning, resilience
• 12:02-14:51 — Personal history: John’s upbringing, the role of family background
• 19:00-22:23 — Parenting, failures, and intergenerational toolkits
• 23:23-25:45 — Forgiveness, blame, and moving forward
• 29:24-31:31 — Pathologizing boyhood in schools and society’s effect on boys
• 31:57-35:35 — Smartphones, parenting “the only one,” and isolation
• 39:18-40:04 — Structure, discipline, and the emotional needs of children
• 52:49-54:53 — John’s journey with his daughter and the healing process
• 56:32-59:15 — Marital crisis: the decision to rebuild or leave
• 62:48-64:41 — The meaning of loyalty, best-friendship in marriage
• 68:38-73:32 — Sage on love, second marriage, family legacy, and faith
• 74:44-79:06 — Compassion fatigue, carrying others’ pain, boundaries between work and home
• 93:38-95:28 — Bombing on stage: vulnerability, humility, rebirth

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Concluding Tone and Takeaways

The episode balances gravitas with warmth and humor. It is deeply personal—an honest, often vulnerable conversation about the struggles and redemption found in family, marriage, and self-discovery. Both Sage and John stress legacy and humility, modeling what it means to “not waste the pain,” pursue real connection, and build generationally stronger families. The show’s title—about boyhood as a “disorder”—is explored as a springboard for unpacking broader crises of masculinity, resilience, and emotional literacy in modern culture, and the profound effects of parenting styles and societal expectations.

Above all, the episode offers a message of hope: that pain can be generative, forgiveness liberating, and that the work of living, loving, and parenting remains unfinished but vital.

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Transcript

[John]

My drug is work. I'm an addict. If my buddy's drinking and my other buddy is a sex addict, this person gets divorced, this person gets sent to rehab, and I get a trophy. We're all barely hanging on.

[Sage]

Dave makes me the best feminine version of myself. How did you make me talk about this? That's awesome. How did you take it in this direction?

[John]

They want to be great dads, they want to be great husbands, whatever. And they open their toolkit, and the tools aren't in there. And so homes become a failure factory. And it takes a lot of humility to have to go knock on somebody's door. And I need tools, and I know how to do it.

[Sage]

What percentage of men do you think actually have the right tools in the toolkit?

[John]

I don't want to hear another person from this stage say, the kids of today have changed. They haven't. Parents have changed.

[Sage]

When you describe Ash Low as it gets, what was the why?

[John]

That's a great question, man. I don't know if anyone's ever asked me that question. Can I tell you what the answer is?

[Sage]

It's crazy. But that local. Then I did regional, and then to natural, and it was like, boom, boom, boom. That whole thing about, you know, with little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems. It's the same thing, right?

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

It's more and more toxic. But I was like, wait. I. My first couple jobs, I didn't even ask what my salary would be. I just said yes. You say yes because that was my dream. It did. The money did not matter. And then you're like, wait, what? I don't understand. I. I don't think I was ever cut out for that business. I adjusted.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

But, like, I. I was in the wrong. Yeah. All good.

[John]

How is. How is. How is it? Like, how has your. I'm fascinated by people who get it.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And then they look around and, like, they're the same person that showed up there.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

With it. Like, how has that affected you not being in it?

[Sage]

Wait a minute. Whose show is this? Look, he is.

[John]

Because I called you. That's one of my heroes.

[Sage]

Like.

[John]

Like, how.

[Sage]

Because his background.

[John]

No, but how does it work? Like, when I say it work. Like, I got it. I got. Direct deposit's awesome. I'm on the show. Like, I'm literally there living the dream, and then you're not. And obviously, the direct deposit matters. Anyone who says it doesn't is lying to you. Like, that matters. But do you exhale more? Like, is there more peace or is.

[Sage]

There that today, right now, versus when I was there. Yes.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

But I didn't know what I didn't know.

[John]

That's it.

[Sage]

All I'd ever done was TV and the climb, the climb, the climb, the climb. And then you make it. And I made it to exactly what I wanted. Like, SportsCenter was my dream since I was 11 years old. And I did it and it was like, oh, my gosh. I was so grateful, so humbled and knew I wasn't good at it either. So it was like, okay, I made it, but now I need to actually.

[John]

Now the work starts.

[Sage]

Yeah. Yeah. Because fine. It's not like I didn't work and earn it and, you know, working two jobs and waiting tables while I'm on tv, like, all the things. Loved all of that. It's probably my proudest moments are back then with Negative Dollars, you know what I mean? But still living it. I thought I would miss it so much more than I do. I missed the adrenaline rush of live television. Two hours live a day, you know, it's like, you ready or not? And I didn't know that I had that in me when I was younger, to be able to step it up and like crush it. But I. I found other ways, you know, and not cocaine or anything. Kidding. I'm the biggest prude. Like, I've never done anything like that. But yeah, through public speaking, like we were saying earlier. And you just have to find other ways to. I liken it to a professional athlete since I covered them for so long. And when they've grown up in Pop Warner and then high school and then college and then NFL or NBA and then it's like, well, what do I do? Yeah, I don't. I don't hear it anymore. I'm not getting the adulation and all these things. Like, what do you do? It messes a lot of people up. But I. Mine is so faith based and rooted in faith why I'm standing.

[John]

Okay.

[Sage]

Yeah. Like, it's so. It's every ounce, every step in this journey is like, I know why.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

I wouldn't change it. Even though it, you know, about broke me a few times. Yeah. But I like, I love it and like, I would not be able to have, you know, sent some emails and met you, who I've admired from afar for so long as well, and certainly Dave. And it's like, I would never have gotten out of that bubble.

[John]

Okay.

[Sage]

If it weren't for getting crushed and canceled and all the things. Like, I'm so grateful.

[John]

That's the worst thing I think I've come to understand is there's not a hack around that.

[Sage]

No.

[John]

You have to get the thing that you wanted and realize that there's awesome parts to it and then there's parts that will kill you. And then you got to figure out who you are on the other side of that. And I wish. I wish there was a way. People always ask, like, what would you tell your 25 year old self? Or 20.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

I was telling, like, nothing. Because that guy was an idiot and he wouldn't have listened. It didn't matter.

[Sage]

It's true.

[John]

You just have to go through that thing and there's not a hack around it.

[Sage]

There's not. But. And that's what. I want my kids to feel that pain a little bit, too. But I just told Dave something, too. I'm like, I thought of this and I think it's. I should coin it and somehow, like, own it. But to my kids, please don't waste my pain. Please don't. Don't tell me this was. And it wasn't wasted because I'm already. You know, no matter what, it's not.

[John]

Nothing's wasted.

[Sage]

No. And trust me when I tell you this part. And you were old enough to witness this stuff, so.

[John]

And they felt it, like in their house. Right.

[Sage]

They felt it. They got. My kids got attacked on social media. Terrible things to my kids, my daughters in particular. From Sick Men. Yeah. But they're tougher for it. And they also needed to know this nice life you're living, it's not free.

[John]

Yeah. It comes at a cost. Yeah.

[Sage]

Big time. So choose wisely. And they would ask different, better questions than I would then. I certainly did. Took me 50 years. You know, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm so. I'm excited that they've gotten a seat, even though it's hurt them too.

[John]

The other night. So I grew up in like, punk rock shows and like, mosh pits was my thing since I was a kid. And whenever my son was born, he's 15 now, I had. I was like, one day I'm going to stay in good enough shape so that him and I can share this experience. Well, he's into country music. He's not. It's not his thing.

[Sage]

He's not going in the mosh pit.

[John]

But a band came to town and I was like, hey, this is. I need you to do this for your old man. He's like, I'm in, dad. We went and it was a blast. But he was. I Mean, he was in it, full in it, right up against the thing, the stage, the whole thing. But he's pretty reserved. And we got outside after the show, I was like, I thought you were going to just start shoving people and letting them, letting loose. And he looked at me and goes, dad, I don't have that inner rage. You have inner rage like that. And I thought, wow, I'm doing a good job as a dad. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you were a regulated young man, which is okay. We're like, it's. That was the best parenting compliment he's ever given me.

[Sage]

That's huge.

[John]

It was huge.

[Sage]

That's huge. But the fact that he can even.

[John]

I used to think that need to go to those things to get it all out to help his old man, and that was fine.

[Sage]

Rage, dad. That's a. That's amazing.

[John]

So, yeah, like, letting our kids see that our lives come at a cost. The cool stuff you have, it comes at a cost. And you don't have to chase these ghosts like we are. If you're loved and you're rooted. And that's a cool thing.

[Sage]

Exactly. It's huge. So, okay, that's a big dad win.

[John]

Yeah, it's huge.

[Sage]

That was recent.

[John]

Yeah, it was just a few weeks ago.

[Sage]

Yeah. Like, put that on the counter. Keep creating. What would he say about you, like, taking your big, manly Brooks running shoes off and putting, like, fuzzy socks on? Would he judge you?

[John]

No, no. I'm only wearing these, like, because I've been working out and I've got plantar fasciitis, so my doctor said get some old man shoes. So we're going to put these on.

[Sage]

Well, mine are already on. I should have made this a whole thing to do together, and I failed.

[John]

I'm so excited for this.

[Sage]

Are you, though? You're just trying to make me feel better.

[John]

I. Here's the thing. I think that people should spend money on mattresses, tires, and socks and shoes. It's like a thing for me.

[Sage]

It's. I didn't know that.

[John]

Touches the ground.

[Sage]

Yeah, I didn't know that. It's true.

[John]

Skimp on every other thing, but spend money on those things and put your.

[Sage]

Hand in there real quick. Those things are legit.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Isn't that great? That's life changing. You know what you're gonna start doing on your shows? You're gonna start wearing. No one's gonna see. They'll be under the desk. You're start wearing. I'm gonna send you some those, by the way. I just took the tag off. They are not worn or washed. I promise you. No, they're not. I promise you. I splurged.

[John]

I'm in, though. Can I put these on now, please?

[Sage]

Thank you so much. This is always a win. As David, my producer, knows, not everybody does it. Like, sometimes it's the people I least expect. Like, women. I won't give names. I'm like, wait a minute. How are you not wearing these? You're so fun and cute. Okay, Those look good on you. And I'm not gonna look at your toes. I'm not gonna look. All right, because then we might have to end the.

[John]

Here's the thing. My mom, who's delightful and wonderful, she told me at a young age, you're so handsome, you're so. You're so cute, you're so smart, but your feet are so ugly. And so I had a phobia, dude. I don't think my wife saw my feet till, like, five years after getting married. Like, I wore shoes to the. To me. For real. And so that was a huge thing. This is a lot of therapy. Just take my.

[Sage]

I feel honored. No, I'm not. No, I'm not going to give therapy credit. I'm going to give myself the credit. I have warmed you up already in your studio.

[John]

That's right.

[Sage]

Thank you. Looks great. Next time, I will bring the hot pink polka dot.

[John]

I'm not going to. I'll wear them with pride. And these are phenomenal. I feel great.

[Sage]

No, thank you. Okay, now get next six hours. I'm kidding. So tell me. Tell me where the rage comes from. Where you had to go and mosh bits on a regular basis.

[John]

Oh, man, I. It's not a thing. It's. My dad was a homicide detective in Houston. And so there's a particular way he experienced the world, which is all day, every day, all he did was deal with things that never happened to other people. Right? You and I can walk in and out of a basketball arena to our cars a thousand times, and nothing happens. And his whole day was that one time somebody gets, you know, dragged into an alley, right? So, yeah, it shapes your world view, which is people are always around the corner. You got to be vigilant. You got. And so as a kid, it's just. And even back in the day, we had Polaroids that he would bring and put on the desk and just say, hey, these guys are getting out of prison this week. If anyone comes to the house and knocks on the door, you call, you know, 911 or call me or whatever.

[Sage]

Oh, my gosh.

[John]

Well, that's a really awesome thing that he's protecting his family. And at the age of six, I thought, oh, anybody who knocks on the door might be a. Yeah. Bad guy. Right. So there's some of that. Some of it was. I grew up, like, we were a. Like, in church three days a week, which, if you grew up in the 80s and 90s, that comes with its own joys and its own baggage. And I had a sister who was older than me who was a savant, like, brilliant. My little brother missed, I think, two questions in the act. And then I was the Texas high school football player, and I just was like. Like a meathead. So there was all this, like, trying to just find out who you are and what value do you have and what value do you not have and. And, like, yeah, rules. And then I had some childhood stuff that was gnarly and ugly. That. I mean, all that just makes this cocktail of a big, tall, loud, athletic young man who just needs to flex to prove he's got any worth. And that just carries with it, man. And then you can. The one sanctioned place where you can kind of lose your mind is.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

At midnight in a small punk club in downtown Houston. It was. It was just sanctioned. Lose your mind here for a couple hours with each other, and you'll all go back to regular lives. That's right.

[Sage]

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[John]

But, but it was, it was a. I always tell people like, if you get a Ph.D. you can get a Ph.D. at like a, I call them like directional schools, like at a. With a state in like multiple directions, like North Eastern San Antonio Tech. You can get a degree there or you can get a PhD at Stanford. The thing is, is like you can walk a marathon or run it. You all get the same sticker for the back of your car. Right. But my academic journey in a lot of ways was me trying to prove to the world, like, do you like me now? Like, do you think I'm smart now? That's been a thing I was chasing forever is am I smart now? And that's, that's a thing that has haunted me forever is not being smart.

[Sage]

Enough or because of your siblings.

[John]

I mean, my dad was also a hostage negotiator, so people would be on the edge of a building and his job was to talk him off. And so he always had the right thing to say. And my mom went back to school at. Not back to school. She went to school. Her first community college class was at 42 and she graduated with her PhD at 57. And so it was just having the right answer was the currency of my house. And so. And I didn't. Right. I wanted to be doing other things when we playing music, I want to be out playing sports and stuff. So that it, it's not altruistic that I ran through school. It was chasing something.

[Sage]

You did it though.

[John]

Yeah, we did it. We did it. Yeah.

[Sage]

We didn't want to minimize.

[John]

No, I did it.

[Sage]

That like I'm the one that took five years to get out of undergrad and they literally like here, just leave, please, and go.

[John]

Right, right.

[Sage]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I actually identify with that is never feeling that smart.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

But finding ways around it, like when you know your shortcomings, you know, it was powerful.

[John]

When I started the show again, I had no media training, no nothing.

[Sage]

Amazing.

[John]

And I wanted so desperately to be the Andrew Huberman of mental health. I want to know like every ways to pull apart ADHD and OCD and how the neurochemicals and all that stuff works. And it was about six months in that a team here said, hey, we don't like burst your bubble. But nobody cares about that from you. What the reason you're being successful is. Nobody's ever seen a big, tall, loud, tattooed up guy talk to a woman who just blew her marriage up so compassionately. It was the, it was the interaction people were interested in and that for the first time in my 40s, I could hear that. That, that's more important than trying to show how smart I am. It was. No, the gift you have is sitting with hurting people. Like just let that be enough. And it took this long for that to be enough.

[Sage]

How cool that you were at the right place. Place.

[John]

Oh, dude.

[Sage]

The only place that that probably would have happened.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Especially in this crazy business.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

But that also you were able to receive it basically.

[John]

Correct. If this had happened at 30, it would already be over. Yeah, I would already blown it up. I wasn't wise enough to hold it.

[Sage]

Yeah, that's fair.

[John]

But would have nuked it.

[Sage]

Yeah. Gosh. And then would have been always wondering. But it happens, you know, this way for a reason. I. I didn't know about the hostage negotiator part too. Along with just everyday homicide detective. Not just in Houston. Yeah, he's busy.

[John]

Yeah, he was busy. Yeah. And. And it. Yeah, you. I, I had a cool ringside seat too. Watching and listening. And obviously our house was always full of people in our community who had problems that people were struggling or people at our local church who had struggles. But yeah, I was a constant stream of. If somebody's hurting you go towards them, you don't run from it.

[Sage]

Which is beautiful.

[John]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Sage]

With a job that serious and intense though, when I learned about that with your dad, you know, I think all of us at times have a hard time leaving work at work and not bringing it home even if it's something like, fun and positive and cheery. Right. How was your dad with that part?

[John]

Like, not great.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. Not great. The. That was probably the. One of the most touching things ever. It was five or ten years ago. He. He told me. He said, just over coffee, he said, they trained you. One of the last classes he took in his detective class way back in the day was the thing that makes you good here at work will really wreak havoc in your home. And so you got to turn this off. And it was a neat moment of revelation when he said, I don't think I did a good job of that.

[Sage]

Oh, my gosh.

[John]

And that was a cool, like, okay, I'm not crazy. And that was. That was a nice gift. Yeah.

[Sage]

Oh, wow. And so this is. How old was he when he did that?

[John]

Oh, man. Probably 60s.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

In the 60s. Yeah.

[Sage]

So he'd held that in, of course.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

The whole time. I mean, it's beautiful to hear it. But then I think, gosh, it breaks my heart that he knew probably the whole time, but couldn't really let go of it.

[John]

You open the toolkit, and all you have is what you're. What you're trained to do. And I see this with a lot of men, which is like, they want to be present at home. They want to be great dads, they want to be great husbands, whatever. And they open their toolkit, and the tools aren't in there. And so homes become a failure factory, and the only place you can be successful is at work. And so you just go get better and better at that. And it just. It just, like, takes you further and further away from the things that matter most. Right. I remember when I. When. When we finally had Hank, my. My first. My. My oldest son, I just learned really quick. I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything about babies. I didn't know anything. And so I just knew I'm not doing this well. And I had never been married to a mom, and I didn't know how to do that well, but I knew I could go make money, and I knew I could help us out professionally. So I'm just going to go do the thing I know I can be successful at for our family, and it ended up taking me further and further away. And so it's a tough thing when you open up your toolkit and it's. The tool's not there. And it takes a lot of humility to have to go knock on somebody's door and say, I. I needed. I need new Tools. And I know how to do it because it seems like it should be so innate, right?

[Sage]

Yeah, I guess. But then again, no, I was a mom and didn't know how to be a mom. I mean I had this incredible, this human growing inside of me and I'm like, I have no idea.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

What this is going to look like or feel like and what to do and, and then to have more than one and then to work and like. And how do you be a wife and how are you a friend? And I am still tired.

[John]

There's not a.

[Sage]

The oldest is 23. Like I never, I mean we figure it out and we, and we survive. But that's one thing that our kids eventually learn is like I'm doing this for the first time too. And I've never given a 23 year old girl advice on fill in the blank. And so I don't know. I didn't know when I was that age. I. But like it's that real fine line of allowing them also to go live and figure it out, which is what your dad did do.

[John]

He did. And I. The, the next step in the legacy for our family tree is I remember my son was really young and I was going to speak, I think it was about 5,000 people in this small little arena and I was laughing and carrying on live events. I love we're talking about that. But he was sitting next to me and he was so wide eyed because the place was, he saw it was completely packed and it was buzzing with that energy of a life place. And I took his little hand and I put it inside my, my, I was wearing a jacket and I put it inside and put on my heart. And my heart was beating a thousand miles an hour. And I said, your daddy's really nervous. And he was like, he like, it was like you, it was shock. I was like, I'm so nervous. Look how many people are here. And what I was trying to do is let him know I'm human too. And it's okay to feel nervous and then you got to go do the thing. And that was, that's the gap. I think most people, they see somebody up on a stage and they don't see the backstage part where they're hyperventilating or whatever. And then when they start hyperventilating, they think something's wrong with them. Right. Or if me and his mom, my wife, get in a fight, it's important for me to say like, I love her and I didn't handle that well and I'm gonna Go, I'm sorry to you that you got a picture of me being angry like that or frustrated like that. And I'm gonna go tell your mom I'm sorry, and I'm gonna go close that door. I'm gonna tell her that I'm sorry. It's him seeing that the middle. Right. And I think that, to me, is the next step of the legacy, which is you make a mistake, you mess up, you get nervous, you get scared, whatever, and then you go do the next right thing. And that, to me, is the gap.

[Sage]

And so it's huge. It's huge. That's the part about not wasting our pain either, right? Some of that. Your ability to do that. You probably wouldn't be doing this for your boy right now if not for what you did and did not experience with your dad.

[John]

100%. Absolutely. Yeah. And his dad was a World War II vet who went and fought overseas, and his dad died at the age of 10. Right. So if you. If I look at myself as a part of an extended family family tree, we can say it's my job to take that baton. If I don't have those tools I got, it's my job to go get them. Right. Same as you and me. Like, in the media world, if somebody asks us to be a part of an interview, it's our job to do that work, and nobody questions that. But when it comes to, like, how do I love. Well, at my house, which is the most important thing, I don't have those skills. So I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go get those skills. And that's the job. Right? And then to show my son it's okay to open up, realize I don't know how to do that, or I messed that up, I'm gonna go make this right.

[Sage]

Had you already forgiven your dad before he said that to you?

[John]

Yeah, I've got a pretty. What I'm finding. I didn't think it was unique, but a pretty unique relationship with forgiveness. And it's all the way back to an undergrad counseling professor. And I remember she told me, forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness is the choice to. This is my language. Like, somebody hands you a cinder block, whether they abused you, they. They screamed at you, they hurt you, they weren't there for you, whatever, they hand you a cinder block. Forgiveness is you saying, I'm not carrying this anymore, and I'm going to set this part down. And that, to me, at 19, clicked. And. But even six or seven months ago, I was frustrated with some things going on in my extended family and the woman I see here in Nashville, the, the therapist I see now said, before you complain anymore, you've got to rattle off four or five things you got from this person you're complaining about positive. So you got to blame. Fair. Right. And that was an important exercise is it's really easy to see all of the negative and to blame and to blame and to blame. But almost always you got something from that too.

[Sage]

Oh y.

[John]

That, that allows you to be in the seat you're in. So blame fairly.

[Sage]

What a blessing to get that from a, from a professor. I mean, what college is that? Yeah, he's still there like, because these days, you know, things that go on on college campuses and of course it's not fair to paint with a broad brush, but what a great gift at a young age. Really.

[John]

What's the idea of forgiveness is like I, I'm not letting you off the hook and we still do justice and, and those kind of things. But like I'm not going to open my eyes every morning thinking about the person that hurt me or thinking about the person that didn't do right and, or thinking about the person that should have said it this way because that's a, that's at some level of choice for me to wake up and be miserable, starting right now. And I'm not going to give other people that power in my life.

[Sage]

Right.

[John]

And it's not always easy. Right. It's hard. But that, that's my presence. I mean, that's my practice is can I wake up and not be carrying anything so I can fully receive that hug from my rambunctious 9 year old daughter so I can fully hug my wife. She gets up two hours before I do kind of fully exhale with her and not have a cinder block of somebody else's business between us.

[Sage]

You mentioned the toolkit, though. I mean, yes, that's lacking. Everybody should have one. Great. But what percentage of men do you think actually have the right tools in the toolkit and are willing to pick it up and open it?

[John]

That's none. Very, very few. And I think we don't. It's, it's kind of bifurcated into this. Like if you feel it, then that's, that's a hundred percent truth and just go with what you feel, which is why you have millions of men who've just opted out of work and they live at home. Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that thing. It's hard. It feels hard. I'm not Gonna do it. Or you have the other path, which is feelings don't matter at all. Just crush it and grind it and kill. And you have that right. And neither of those are sustainable patterns. And so there's that. That third way, that new third way, which is, like, feel it. Like, be sad that your dad left. Be sad that somebody abused you as a kid. Like, all that's real. And then what's the next right move? What's the next thing to go do? That's. That will bring you to where you want to be. And if you ignore either one of these things, if you ignore discipline, you're gonna have a mass. And if you ignore your body's innate signals telling you you're going to be in a mass. But we don't have a culture of humility saying everything gets. Let me say it this way. Everything gets characterized as a character issue, as a moral issue. And I like to look at most things as skills issue. Right. You can be a great person and terrible at being married. Okay, cool. Then go get those skills on how to be married to somebody. You can be a great, great employee and not a good dad. Learn how to do that. It's a skill.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

But when it becomes a moral issue, it gets all tangled up in defending yourself and addiction, all kind of other things. And so it's kind of stripping away some of the weight from all this stuff. I don't know. Like, somebody might say, I don't know how to tell my kid to do something, and they don't do it, and I just get enraged. All right. It's a tool I don't have. Cool. Then go learn how to handle your anger. Like, go get some skills. And if you need to see a professional, see a professional. If you need to talk to three or four men in your life regularly, go do that. But get that skill and so that you can be present with your kids.

[Sage]

Where do you think we are in America, specifically, as far as men and not bashing men, uplifting men, encouraging men to be big, strong men. But also look at the toolkit, pay attention, get therapy if necessary, and then not judge yourself for it because it feel. It's just been so toxic, which I think is an overused term these days, but towards men. They're very different today than my father.

[John]

Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. The. The person who. The book I read was by a guy named Richard Reeves, and it's called Of Boys and Men. And that was the one that finally put all the words to what I've been experiencing Because I've been in education for, gosh, 20 plus years, all the way from I did a year with K5, and I was a high school coach for a few years, teacher, and then I was in higher ed the rest of the time. But I was the first at the very beginning of. If a little boy is wiggly in class, there's something wrong with his brain and there's something wrong with his. Like, there's something wrong with him. And so what we need to do is fix his brain. We need to, like, punish this out of him. Because a good man can sit for eight hours in a classroom frozen, doing worksheets.

[Sage]

Right.

[John]

And so it was that pathology. I always get this word wrong. Being a little boy became a psychological disorder in many ways.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And so. And as the rebellion to that, which is nobody could tell me what to do, that got chaotic too. Right. And so what Richard Reeves, Dr. Reeves says, which I love, is in the process of finally elevating young girls, telling young girls, hey, you're not dumb. And in fact, you can do amazing, wonderful things. The way we did that was to squash little boys.

[Sage]

Yes.

[John]

And now little boys are my age. Right. And so I'm married to Dr. DeLoney. She was Dr. DeLoney before me. She's a savant, and she's brilliant. And she came along at a time when teachers had their eyes out for promising young girls. And how can we lift them up and support them? You can go do math, you can go do engineering. Y' all could do all these amazing things. And at the same time, it was, boys, put your hands down. Y' all shut up. And if you can't shut up, you need to get out my class. And so now I think it is, how can rising tides lift all the ships?

[Sage]

Right.

[John]

How can we encourage everybody and with their. With their strengths? And so I'm hoping I'm seeing it with my son, that the tide is turning in the classroom and the tide is turning with parents. So how can we continue to lift everybody up?

[Sage]

Now, maybe this is cliche or, but I feel like parenting now is, oh, gosh, it just keeps getting harder, thanks to social media and tablets and electronics. You know, my daughter said to me recently, the oldest, she's 23, she's like. She's like, I think I was born in the wrong generation, Mom. I should have been a kid when you were in the 70s. Or even sooner, even before then, you know? And I'm sad because I think she's right. There are so much less ugliness, and frankly, Dangerous things that. I mean, just your description right there about how boys got to be in this situation and men. I don't know how quick of a turn this is. I don't know if it's ever turned right. It's one of those things maybe where you just get used to the new normal.

[John]

Yeah, I, I heard a man, this is maybe two years ago now. I heard somebody from stage say something that I don't. You and I both, we see lots of speakers when we're out. This particular statement stuck with me and that's rare. But he said, I don't want to hear another person from this stage say, the kids of today have changed. They haven't. The parents have changed.

[Sage]

Parents have changed.

[John]

And so I don't know if it's any. It is more difficult being a kid these days, but I think it's more difficult these days because parents have abdicated a lot of their responsibilities. And so I don't know many parents personally and I'm sure they're out there who feel good about handing their fifth grader a smartphone, but they do it. And I remember reading an article, again, I don't know how the data went, but that 50% of iPads were for 2 year olds. Purchases were for 22 year olds. And I remember one of the parents in that article said, I know this can't be good, but here's the line that stuck out with me. I don't want to be the only one. I don't want them to be the only one. And that became a mantra for me and a couple of my buddies. We're going to be the only parents. And now I've got a 15 year old that strangely says, thank God you never gave me Snapchat.

[Sage]

Really?

[John]

Like, because he says that. Yeah, because he sees the chaos and he sees like he sees his classmates sitting by each other and nothing is happening in the world, but they are angry and frustrated and they're living like this. And it's this. Now he's old enough to be separate from it and I'm about to enter into it with my nine year old again. But we held the line at fifth grade and we held the line at sixth grade and then we got a small group of parents that held the line with us and we kind of became a gang. And even those that have phones, they knew they'd walk into our house and my wife had a bowl out and every phone goes in that bowl. And it became this weird thing at first and then it, I kid you not, it was this, they couldn't wait to get there and throw that stupid thing in the bowl really. To go be rambunctious. And we live out, out in the woods a little bit out on some acreage and. But they would just head off out to the barn or out to the woods and it was like that. It's their nervous system saying this is what life is. And there was many a night that my son would be heartbroken that he missed a birthday party because they just texted it out. And, and so we had to figure out some ways around that stuff. But you know, it's parents saying, we all know this isn't good.

[Sage]

Yes.

[John]

Can we shut this down? Because you can. We can.

[Sage]

If you choose to parent.

[John]

If you choose to parent.

[Sage]

And it sucks.

[John]

And it's the worst.

[Sage]

It is so hard. And your kids, yes, they're gonna sometimes be the only one.

[John]

The only one, the only one. And we're gonna be the only one. And here's. I've tried to pull the thread on this. This is my hypothesis, I've got nothing to back this up. Is we are so busy and we are so lonely. We don't have any friends. We have like, I remember growing up on a street where everybody had weird different jobs, but all the adults would sit in lawn chairs with those mesh, remember those mesh lawn chairs out in the front yard?

[Sage]

Striped.

[John]

And they would just sit out there because it was, that was the Internet back then. And we don't have any friends.

[Sage]

We don't.

[John]

And so what I'm desperate for is somebody to like me. And I. The only people I got left because spouses don't like each other anymore. They co parent well, but they, they co manage their households well, but they don't like each other is these kids. And that's all we got. And so I want my kid to like me. And that was an early understanding. Like, as a parent, like, my job isn't for you to like me. My job is for you to be safe. And I've got to divorce myself from that. And so that can be lonely. Which means I gotta go get adult friends, which is the worst thing to do. Right. How do you make friends as a grown up?

[Sage]

Right.

[John]

It's the worst, right?

[Sage]

Yes.

[John]

But I think, I think if, if I have friends that I can lean on, then I don't have to lean on my 14 year old or 15 year old or 9 year old for friendship or, or for approval. And my son's grade on whatever class isn't a reflection of. It's not My report card.

[Sage]

Right.

[John]

For how good as a parent. So it's how far can I get upstream and be like, dude, I gotta get some friends. I've got to disassociate myself. And of course a nine year old's not going to like me. She's nine, right? She's nine. Of course she's going to be mad at her dad and frustrated and not like my music or whatever. That's okay. But it can be easier to be okay if I've got other people that's helping me get their life together.

[Sage]

Exactly. But I love that you pulled that thread because I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have gone there. But it is true. And if you have backup, if you have reinforcement behind you, it's like, no, Sarah's parents are doing it too. So I guess we're all terrible. I guess we're all the meanest ever. Fine.

[John]

The second. The second nicest thing my son ever said to me without realizing it, was he was frustrated that all his friends had social media or whatever. And I said, hey, tell your friends that your dad's the worst.

[Sage]

I've done that.

[John]

Tell. Tell your friends that you're dad sucks. He is trying to ruin your life and whatever. And he, in his frustration, he said, I can't say that, dad, because I know it's not true. And when he turned, I was like, I was like. I looked at my wife, I was like, you hear that? But it was like, he knows. But then again, tools that I didn't have. I'm going to let you be frustrated and not try to solve that because this is a real frustration. All your friends have a thing and you don't have that thing. And I'm not going to bail on you. I'll be with you while you're frustrated.

[Sage]

Yes. That is huge.

[John]

And I'll sit and it's the worst.

[Sage]

Hug him. I want to be.

[John]

Oh, he's the best. He's the best. Yeah. Yeah, he's the best.

[Sage]

He's deep. He really does. And he's honest and genuine.

[John]

But I think it's because he's got a mom and a dad. And again, not too much. Trust me. He'll be in therapy, I promise, for other reason. But I'm not going to try to solve human emotions because they're real and they're right. And so I've got to. I don't like sitting when he's frustrated. It makes me uncomfortable. And oogie. But that's the. That's the job, right? I'LL sit with you. I'm not going to say get out of here until you can. So you can cheer up or come back. Nah, you can sit here if you're frustrated. I'll sit here with you. It's the worst. And it's tense and it's annoying. And we both go to bed not happy. But tomorrow we're back. Right. And it's. It's just. I'm not going to bail on you when things get hard.

[Sage]

And that is something that they're not able to express. That fear of that you're not gonna be there.

[John]

Yeah. I think a lot of kids recognize it's their job to make sure mom and dad are happy or their job to make sure mom and dad are okay.

[Sage]

It's true.

[John]

And that's no kid's job. They can't carry that weight.

[Sage]

Cannot. No.

[John]

It's too heavy.

[Sage]

My oldest said again recently, we've been. She now has out of college and has a full time job here in Tennessee and Nashville. So she. I get to see her a lot more. And it's beautiful. She made me dinner last night, like I was saying, for the first time ever. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I have died and gone to heaven. Because look, like you're seeing it. Yes. And seeing how much she cared about it and how she had everything set up. And I'm like, look, this matters. She's like, wait, don't eat till we say grace. I'm like, all the little things anyway. See, you gotta bring me back sometimes. John. She said with some friends of ours whose kids are not making good decisions, like a little bit younger than her. And she's like, oh no. Oh no, they cannot let up. They can't do it. And she's like. I go, what's it gonna be like when you have a kid that age? And she's like, oh, they're gonna hate me.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

And I was like, well, why? She's like, because structure is everything and you have to follow through in accountability. And I'm like, again, like, thank you. Because this has been such a painful journey and my kids weren't even bad. I mean, all kids are difficult at times, of course. And each one, I have three of them, each one is different. Even if the rules are exactly the same, they receive it differently. But when she said that, like, it's just a reminder to all the parents. And I'm figuring out every day too. But they want structure.

[John]

They're desperate for boundaries. Desperate.

[Sage]

They'll never admit it to you. And say, dad, please give me more boundaries. Please move my curfew up so I gotta be. No, but if you just go, okay, and be and act like their friend, they're gonna miss something.

[John]

Yeah. They're not gonna have anything to anchor into.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And every kid is designed to bam their head up against boundaries and see if they'll hold. They're trying to figure out reality. And if every time I set a boundary, my son or daughter runs up against it and I move it, then reality expands. It doesn't exist for them and there's nothing to anchor into. If they know my parents love me, they'll sit with me when it's hard. They will laugh and, dude, our house is clowns in that place. But, like, if they make fun of me about something and it's funny, I'll be the first to laugh. Like, they know that.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And so it's a safe, fun place to be. But they know that there's anchors and they're just. They're anchored. Right. And that is what a kid's nervous system needs. They don't need another friend. They got plenty of those. They got plenty of those.

[Sage]

I feel like safety is a word. It's a word that I've used a lot lately. I didn't realize how long I had felt unsafe.

[John]

Oh, tell me about that.

[Sage]

In every aspect of life. Work, personal, relationship, all of it. And, well, I. I just got married five weeks ago.

[John]

You did?

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

Congratulations. Gross. You're so glowing. You're so glow.

[Sage]

I'm obnoxious. I love it.

[John]

I love it.

[Sage]

What a concept. I really like a. I just didn't understand the importance of that word. And I was married the first time for 20 years. First boyfriend, age 20 to 47. And yeah, it's not how it's supposed to end. It's not, you know, And I am so grateful for every part of it and for him and our three awesome kids and the ups and downs and the lessons you take from it. And then safety in. Well, I was the breadwinner and he was a stay at home dad, which was incredible for all those years. And then things change and whatever. But then, oh, gosh. I'm like, oh, my gosh. All you do is you push through. You push through in safety that you try to create for everybody else and your spouse and your kids and your boss and every. You know, and then that's all you do is worry about safety for everybody else. And I feel like if we don't create that for ourselves, how will our kids Know the importance of it. I guess it's just like anything.

[John]

Yeah. Behavior is a language thing, I always say. And so your kids know if you're telling them to do something and you don't, they know, they watch. They could just learn by watching you. Right. And so I can I. I had a psychologist that the coolest part about getting the second doctorate was I had to go back to school. I was like, I was learning. I was a grown up, I had a full time job, I wore a suit every day and. But I had to go do an internship again. And I did it with this savant psychologist. And anyway, we were working with pretty traumatized kids and I asked a question, but it was a veiled parenting question because my son was really young. And I asked some form of the question, what are you supposed to say to young boys so that they'll respect women? Because we had just got done working with a kid that was saying some wild stuff and he just laughed and he goes, you can say whatever you want. Kids don't listen to you. And I was like, what are you talking about? I think my kid was, I think my son was 2. And he just said, kids watch you. He's like, if you want to respect women, treat your wife right. Tip the waitress well, even when the service is bad. Like, and he just rattled off three or four things. And I remember thinking like, no, no, I just want to say stuff, I just want to say stuff. Right? But it's like they watch you and if you're telling them to go to bed, go to bed, go to bed. You gotta get a good night's sleep. And then it's, I'm settling in at 10:00 clock to turn the TV on. Or like, phones are bad, phones are bad. And I'm always scrolling my life away. They, they, they just absorb.

[Sage]

They do. Even when they're older kids, they do.

[John]

They absorb it well.

[Sage]

And even last night at the wonderful first dinner my daughter cooked for us, you know, we got done and we're helping her clean up and that Dave, my husband, you know, just big hug and like, I'm tall and he's really tall and I physically feel safe, she sees that I physically feel safe, she sees him knowing that that's what I need and hugging me in that way. And as much as she acted like she was 8 and she was like, ew. I'm like, you know, you like this, like, you know, you like seeing it. And that bar has been raised correct forever.

[John]

Yes, that's right. Is she married?

[Sage]

No. Okay, listen. Okay, don't, please. She just got a college.

[John]

Okay, but listen. But, but, but she's absorbing. Oh, this is what this is supposed to not only look like, but it's supposed to what it's supposed to feel like.

[Sage]

Yes, it is the like.

[John]

So I just watched my mom's shoulders drop three inches.

[Sage]

She sees it.

[John]

Yeah, she saw it.

[Sage]

And on our wedding night. Oh, my gosh. She.

[John]

Whoa. Now. Okay, I'm just kidding.

[Sage]

Rewind. Let me rephrase.

[John]

Hold up.

[Sage]

No. Excuse me. At the receipt.

[John]

John.

[Sage]

Both dads gave a speech and then a toast, I guess. And then she wanted to. And she's the oldest of the five kids. I have three, he has two. And I should send it to you. I'll get it to you.

[John]

Pretty amazing.

[Sage]

Because you. I think you would love it. Just because it was. I can't. I need a glass of wine. It's all the things that. Things that she's never said that she said in front of everybody.

[John]

What's one. What's one big one?

[Sage]

How Dave makes me the best feminine version of myself.

[John]

Of you, her mom.

[Sage]

He makes me feel that way. My husband makes me feel that way. And to let down and how my mom's always done everything for everybody else, and now she gets to. I mean, I can't. So that kind of message that I was proud for a hundred years that she got to see this strong side of me and push through and tough. And you get crushed at work or hurt in a friendship or whatever, and you just go back and you go back and you stay up late and you make their banana bread and you make their lunches and you're the room mom, and then you go to work and you're on national TV and then you're making a lot of money. So then they have this nice lifestyle and you get your feelings hurt and you get canceled, but you keep going. You go, oh, my gosh. So she saw all that toughness with the love. Because I'm a nurturer and I'm that one that makes them hug me. My youngest hates being hugged. And so we. I would do it by like five second increments. And I'm like, okay, five seconds. And she'd be like, 5, 1004, 1003, 1. I got to 15 seconds and like, it's a win. Very different love languages. Right? But anyway, same off track. But for. For her to see me, the tough side and the survivor get crushed, canceled, have to file a lawsuit. Like, fight, fight, fight. And then to be able to soften Whoa. So that's the part about not wasting our pain.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Is because now I know for a fact that she knows she can go and be a badass and be tough and strong and support her family and others and her friends and. And let down and be a woman, be a girl, be feminine, be that supportive wife, like all those things. And there's just so many gifts and tough times, but if we try to hold it in and protect our kids from all of it, they don't get to learn that lesson, do they? They don't get to learn it.

[John]

Can I pull part two things I just saw on this? That's so cool.

[Sage]

You say it's me trying not to.

[John]

No, you're hanging in there. It's good. It's noble. How cool is it that. And again, I don't know anything about first husband, but I'm always. I'm always so grateful when I hear stories, especially after long term divorces, where both dads show up and they can be adults in the same room and maybe even go far as to shake hands and let their kids see. Even when things are hard, even when things don't go the way we want, we're gonna go to the next right thing for a bigger purpose. And the fact that your daughter could say those things in front of her dad to you says like, that's it. That's the fruit at the end of the tree you've been growing for all.

[Sage]

These years in front of.

[John]

In front of her husband and in front of her.

[Sage]

He wasn't at the wedding.

[John]

Oh, I thought you said two dads came. Oh, I thought that's what you're saying.

[Sage]

Oh, goodness, no.

[John]

Oh, okay. Okay. I retract everything I just said. I thought, like a beautiful picture. Okay.

[Sage]

No, I'm sorry. The f. Like my father and Dave's.

[John]

Oh, I thought her bio dad showed up. Okay, Eric. Okay, I thought you were saying. I was like, this is a beautiful thing. Okay, cool.

[Sage]

But you know what? But it is. It is a. And we see this so often in divorce, right? Where parents say, no, the kids are priority. Kids, the priority. But our actions speak otherwise. And it's. There's. We're not perfect, but parents who use the kids as pawns instead of saying, you know what? This might be an uncomfortable moment, but I need to do this because my kiddos are watching. How the heck did you make me talk about this? How did. How did you take it in this direction?

[John]

I misunderstood. I misunderstood.

[Sage]

No, no, no. I'm very unclear. Quite often when I Get tight. But I just. I do. I love your vulnerability with your kids. I love that you took his hand. Like, I'm visualizing you putting his hand on your chest at that moment. And for them to see.

[John]

Here's. Here's the reverse, though. Okay? Like, I had. And I've talked about this a little bit. My big, dirty secret was in this show took off. Nobody expected that to happen, but my daughter wouldn't hook me. So here I am telling people how to be well and how to be good parents, how to be good spouses, and how to deal with your mental health. And my own daughter wouldn't. And it was my wife who one day I. I tried to go in to hug my dad. I'm a big guy, and she's a little bitty thing, and I can pick her up and be like, hug your dad, right? And she would fight me and push, and she's a tough little thing. And my wife said, is. Is there a possibility that her tiny little body has identified you as not safe? And I got so upset, and I was like, I. I don't know. I don't yell in this house. I don't swear in this house. I don't hit anybody. My wife was like, no, no, you're the best dad I've ever seen. But she goes, but we all kind of. What my son was saying, we all feel. And the word she used is, you have a nuclear reactor in your chest. And we all know. We can all feel it. And I went to a therapist here in town, and I was like, I guess there's something. And it was a. Something wrong with me. And I was mad and frustrated because I'm making this money. I still get up and exercise every day. I. This and this and this. And my daughter won't hug me, and my wife says, it's my fault. And I ended up on some gnarly, gnarly counseling and finally came to some peace with some stuff that happened. I was a little kid. I never told anybody. I've been with the say. I've been married for 23 years, and we've been together five years for that. I never told anybody. Nobody. Zero people. And just yesterday, I walked in from a hunting trip, and we're in the fall here in Nashville. I walk in, and my daughter is like, hold on, hold on. And she rewinds the frozen soundtrack, and she goes, I'm going to hit play, and you have to catch me. And she came running across the room, and now I'm a human jungle gym for her and it was never about something's wrong with her or this isn't how she. It was that her body somehow said, that guy's not okay. And it was my work that I had to go do. And now I can't keep that kid off of me. But I never. And my son, he handled it differently. He handled it by getting super, super close. Whatever you want, dad. You got it, buddy. Like, you got a dad. Hey, dad, give me a hug. Like his. Like, do you have the fight and the flight and the fawn? I wouldn't talk about that very much. But his way of keeping his body regulated was to get as close as he could to dad. And hers was like, it's not safe. And. But that was never their work. It was mine. And it's. It's a. It's. I can't describe it then to say, my house is free now. Right? And that goes back to the humility. Like, I didn't have a toolkit to. I've trying every. Everything I've got to show this little girl that she's loved. And the thing that I couldn't do was to exhale fully. And that was stuff that happened 30 years ago, 40 years ago. Right. So. But it's. My house is free now. It's not problem free. There's still anxiousness in the house, whatever. But it was me going to finally say, okay, I'm putting it all on the table and I need a professional walk with me. The same as if I didn't know how to diagnose somebody with adhd. I'd go to a class and I'd go sit with some professors and they would teach me how to do that. Similarly, like, I had to go. That was the work. Right? But my house is free now. And now I get to walk in in full camo and dance to Frozen before while my wife's like, will you put her down so she can go to bed? We have to finish the dance. Right. And it's a totally different place now.

[Sage]

When she did that. And you knew it was a lot bigger than the Frozen soundtrack.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Like, what did that feel like?

[John]

It's. It's the culmination of all the things I thought that having abs in my 40s was going to get me and that she doesn't understand direct deposit. She doesn't understand paychecks. She doesn't understand the price of groceries is so insane right now. She doesn't understand she wasn't alive when I sold our house and we moved into a dorm when my son was 2 so we could pay off all of our student loans and all of our, all of the nonsense. Like, she's not alive for all that stuff. She just knows that when I hug that guy, he's not okay. And that makes me not okay.

[Sage]

Do we underestimate the intuitive nature of our kids?

[John]

Yeah, I mean, that's when somebody asks, like, it's kind of a stock question. But when someone says, like, hey, my nine year old's struggle with anxiety. What do I do? My stock answer is fix your marriage. Because most of the. Not always, not always, but most of the time, kids, bodies, those, those, those are their signals. They're alarms that we're not okay. And we blame the kids. We try to solve those alarm systems instead of getting. Saying what's on fire here? Not just taking the batteries out of the smoke detector. Like, what's on fire in his house and in my house was me. And so it's. Yeah, it's a different way to live.

[Sage]

How beautiful to have a wife. Also who saw that, saw and said, maybe she doesn't feel safe with love. I assume the way she said that.

[John]

Yeah. And there's. We've been together 23 years. There's been years when it wasn't with love. Right. But, but in fact, last night I again spent all day in the woods. And when you're sitting in the woods, you have nothing to do but just think about stuff. I told her last night, hey, for all the years I wasn't the husband I needed to be when I've done stupid stuff and I thought our marriage wasn't going to make it or I wasn't okay, you never made me feel like I wasn't a good guy. Thank you for that. She's like, that's a weird thing to say on a random, you know, evening. And I was like, yeah, I just need you to know that, like, you made me feel like I was crazy when I was. And you made me feel like I was not making good choices when I wasn't. But you never made me feel like I was a bad guy. And I appreciated that. I appreciated that.

[Sage]

Huge.

[John]

The great Esther Perel. I remember one time somebody was just going after complaining about her husband, complaining, complaining, complaining. And Esther interrupts and said, when's the last time you made him a cup of tea? And that was a light bulb for me. Like, as a husband, like, guys complain about their wives complain about. When's the last time you just unloaded the dishwasher and didn't tell anybody, didn't make an announcement about it. When's the last time you just made the bed and saw her pajamas on the floor and folded them up and put them on the pillow? Like, it's hard when your house is electric and. Yeah. And when you do those little things over time, then when a big thing comes, like, I want you to go see some. See a therapist. I can hear that. Not as an attack, but as a. An imitation.

[Sage]

Toughest time in your marriage.

[John]

Oh, man. We've had several. I mean, we've had a couple of times. The biggest one was. Yeah. Pulling up the table. Like, I'm preparing an exit strategy. Because I thought she was preparing an exit strategy. And I, She. My wife calls it violent with silence. I don't yell. I don't. Obviously don't hit anybody. Like, but, man, I can walk through my house and say nothing to nobody and it's stone cold. Right? And that's the way I was. High and mighty. I don't yell in this house. I don't. Would never hurt anybody in this house. Yeah. And I just became a radioactive silent being. But we sat down a table and said, okay, the marriage we had is over. It's over. It doesn't exist. Are we going to be adults and exit this thing or in ash? Are we going to rebuild this thing from the floor up? And that was a long, hard road. But then it was, I'll help rebuild if you do. And she asked a question that I credit to transforming my vision of what a marriage could be. And she said out of frustration, how do you want this house to feel? Like, when you walk through the front door and I vomited, like, I just want you to throw something at me and be happy I'm here. I don't want my son making fart noises in the corner. I want my daughter engaging me with the. In a sword fight I didn't know I was in. And she said, okay, here's what must be true then. And that's what started. Like, when your car pulls in the driveway, do we all tense up because we don't know, like, or. Or we cannot wait. Like, that's the work. And she had her own work to do. Right. But that was the sit at the table. Like, family meeting. Like, we're going to be adults. No yelling, no screaming, no crying. Like, is this over or this is over? Are we going to build something new? Are we calling it. And both of us said, let's build something new. That's the greatest decision ever made.

[Sage]

But why, why at that moment did you say, we're going to start from scratch. Because it would have been easy, easier, probably that was over in that way. But when you describe Ash like that is low as it gets. What was the why?

[John]

There's an old the why, man. That's a great question.

[Sage]

Man.

[John]

I don't know anyone's ever asked me that question. Can I tell you what the answer is? Because I said I would.

[Sage]

Please.

[John]

Because I said I would. I made a covenant. I stood before her. I stood before her family. I stood before God. I stood before my friends and family and said, till one of us is dead, this holds. And the hard part is it only works if she says that same thing. And so there came a moment when she didn't like me and I wasn't likable and I didn't like the world we'd created. I said I would. And I think we don't hold to that. I think. I think we have a pretty contractual existence. Or. I remember I was a dean of students at a law school for years. I remember one law professor telling me who taught contracts, the purpose of a contract is not to keep people bound. It's just to explain what happens when the inevitable, inevitable breakup happens. That's the purpose of a contract is. And I always thought, no, I signed a contract saying what I'm. That I'm in. And they're like, no, that's not a contract. You do that with a handshake. Contract is how the terms of when y' all separate. And that was a eye opening experience. Like, I think you're exactly right. That's exactly what, like, this is what happens when one of y', all, or both of y' all in a business relationship or a transactional relationship. And so for this one, like, I said I would. And I think we have a line in our culture that this relationship, quote, unquote, just ran its course. I don't buy that. I think when one or both say, I'm not going to work anymore, I'm not going to rebuild anymore. And then there's that old estate pro line that rattles around in my mind that most adults have three to five great loves in their adult life, in their adulthood, and if you work really hard, it will be with the same person. And I am probably husband number five that my wife's been married to, right? And thank God, because the first guy she married was that dude. Such an idiot. And probably the third guy was an idiot. Fourth guy was a fifth guy. I think I'm slowly getting it right. But, like, will we show up that building fell. Will we show up and rebuild another one? And that's hard because it takes both.

[Sage]

It does.

[John]

Takes both.

[Sage]

It does. Said it was the best decision you've ever made.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Yeah. And when was that?

[John]

That was years ago now.

[Sage]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John]

Yeah, it was. Well, it was a while ago.

[Sage]

How would you describe your marriage now?

[John]

It's the. It's. My whole life is anchored to it. I don't know if that makes sense, but it. Everything's anchored to it. So I can only do this because I'm anchored to it. And I can only. I only have the freedom to go see a counselor or go see a doctor, to go try something new, because I'm anchored to it. I can only tell my kids, I'm sorry, I need to do this differently next time because I'm anchored to something bigger than myself. And so, yeah, it's the anchor point. And I finally. I was always crazy about this, about. I don't know why it was such a thing. I had a gang of ride or die friends my whole life. They were my friends. She was my wife. They were my best friends. She was my wife. And then I had work colleagues. Those are my best friends. She's my wife. And only in the past seven, eight, nine years has it been, no, that's my best friend on the planet. And from that I can do anything. And I don't know why I had that weird mental block, but when I let that wall down, it was pretty cool, actually.

[Sage]

Makes sense. There does seem to be a delineation, right? Like friends, parents who are my best friends too. Kids. Eventually we get there with the kids, hopefully, you know, 25 and up.

[John]

25 and up. There you go. That's right. That's my rule.

[Sage]

Yeah, right.

[John]

Whenever somebody's like, my 14 year old's my best friend, I'm like, oh, that poor 14 year old.

[Sage]

Yes, it's Aw. But spouse. Yes, it's not. Or it's. And like that person has to be.

[John]

Yeah, like the ride or die. We talked about this last night. My wife and I were making the budget for the month. How unsexy is that? And. But a friend of mine, she's a work colleague, but she was asking, like, how do you know? Right. She's been taking someone seriously and how do you know? How do you know? How do you know? And I told her the one thing I never put stock in because it sounded so unsexy. It sounded almost off putting that now I consider the most important thing after being married for 23 years, like I knew about looks. I knew about earning potential. I knew about, like, can you have good conversations? Do y' all have similar faith values? Right from the day I met my wife, she was ride or die loyal. And the word loyalty never entered my mind. That felt like, what your boys? Yeah, right? Like, when you hit that dude, for me, like, are you loyal? Right. It never. And now that's the single. Now that we're old and what. Like, that's the most important thing. Like, no matter what, she's gonna be right there. And I think I underestimated the stability that brings in going to do any. Like, if I just said, I quit tomorrow, we're moving to a. She'd be really not like me at all. She'd go, you know what I mean? Because she's in it, right? And vice versa.

[Sage]

I was gonna say vice versa.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

What do you hope your kids see in your marriage today and forever?

[John]

So I've been studying, like, the. About 18 months, maybe two years ago, I was at a signing line in Los Angeles. And you've done this. And so for people who don't know, like, when you have a long line and you're signing things or taking pictures, it's easy to kind of. I don't know how to describe it, but you get kind of a gloss, right? And it's like, hi, how are you? Next. Next. And in my signing lines, people will be like, hey, real quick. That's always, like, real quick.

[Sage]

Always.

[John]

I cheated on my husband five times, and I'm pregnant with somebody else. What do I say? And you're like, right. And there's. There's 300 people in the line. And you're like, I. So that happens, right? So people listen to the show and those earpods, like, we're pretty tight. And it's like, if I just get a couple minutes with John, I can. And so that happens. Well, somebody says, hey, real quick. And so I immediately kind of get defensive, like, here it comes.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And she said, is marriage still worth it? And I immediately launched into a stump speech about me and my wife worked through. And she's like, no, no, no. I know y' all worked for you. Given this time and place in this day and age, is it still worth it? And I. It broke that sheen. And I looked at her, and I was like, I think so. But I didn't have any data. I didn't have. So I've become obsessed with trying to study, like, figure out marriage. Is it still worth it? Is it still worth it? And such a.

[Sage]

Isn't that also a subjective question and based on. I mean, you're going to say yes because of your experience and how hard you've pushed through and where you are today, others might not.

[John]

And that, that's the question. Like, that's what I wanted to know. Is it like exercise universally, it's good for you. Right. And nobody would say, actually it's not good for you. Right. So people don't do it. Lots of people don't do it. Like I wanted to know that question. Or is it just work out if you want to, if you want to make it go, it'll work out for you? Or is it a. Is it a, an objective good that we've just fallen out of practice with, or it's just different now? Or we have to do different things? So I just been obsessed with that.

[Sage]

Wow.

[John]

And when I look up at the, the age of getting married is later and later and later. And the having kids is later and later and later. And you look at all the challenges, whatever. I don't, to answer your question, I don't want it to occur to my kids that being married isn't the greatest thing I can do. And so that's the goal. And I think so far they wouldn't wrap their head. Like, both of them are so excited for that. And I hear some of my friends, kids can't wait to start their job or have a career. And I've got at least a miles, I got two kids. I can't wait to do that thing. And so that to me is like, that's, that's a, that's a goal.

[Sage]

So cool. So cool to be able to break that down.

[John]

Can I ask you.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And I'm fascinated by this question. The question that is, I'm trying to chase down.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

Is why would Jeff Bezos get married again? He's got it. He's got everything. Everything. Right.

[Sage]

You met him.

[John]

Well, but it's like, I haven't, I haven't.

[Sage]

I'm like, I have not. And.

[John]

Yeah, but, but like, but why, right? Like why you can you.

[Sage]

When you don't.

[John]

You don't have to. Right. My question for you.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

Why run it back? So you've established, got a career, your kids are either out or on the way out. And there's some deep joy looking back over those 20 years, and there's some deep hurt. Like, what is it about that thing, that allure to the thing that you're like, I want to do that thing again.

[Sage]

I had the best parents, still have them by the grace of God, the best parents who are about to this week. 54 years.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

So I had the best example. And I know what it is supposed to be.

[John]

Okay.

[Sage]

And I know the beauty in it. I know the fight in it. What they have fought for as an interracial couple getting married in 1990, 1971. Their story. I'll send you that, too, because it's beautiful.

[John]

Have you done that story?

[Sage]

I. NFL Films did a shorter piece on my family. My brother works the NFL, and it started with him and then it trickled down because they realized my parents. I actually had them on my show, though, about five, six months ago. And it's Will forever be the most important show. I do, for obvious reasons, to hear my parents talk about what they've been through, things I hadn't realized, I didn't know. And so they inspire me. This isn't the order, but this is one reason why is because I know that it works. I'm the. You know, I've been one of the beneficiaries of that. I believe in love. I do. I always have. And I am so grateful for what I did have. I'm sad that it, you know, ended for many reasons. And I believe that this is the journey I'm supposed to be on. Not just for me, for my kids to see the good, the bad, the ugly. And I have been really, really, really, really excited to find a partner who is my teammate in every aspect. And most importantly, because he asked me this question a week after we met. What are my priorities in a partner? And my number one baller question, Dude. Oh, yeah. I was like, why are you asking me that? No, I actually had it right in my head without any notice. I just knew. And for the first time in my life, I could honestly say I want someone to walk this faith journey with me. And the other things are very important. But if I don't have that, I now know. So I wanted a partner to do that for myself, selfishly, and for whoever this person ended up being. And he's Dave. And for my kids to witness that. So I think there's many, many reasons. And also to. Yeah, I can't imagine. I mean, selfishly dying alone. Yeah, I can't. How sad. And there's so many people who say, no, I'm fine. I'll never get married. Or I'm comfortable. And I pray that that is the case for them. I really do. For me, I know that there's more to it. And to me, I was not put on this earth to Be alone. It doesn't mean I can't be alone, because guess what? During those last. The last five years before we met, I got good at being alone. I think that was actually very important to being in the right mindset to then find a partner when you're okay with yourself.

[John]

All the smoke clears, and it was.

[Sage]

Painful and ugly and freaking lonely and so sad, and I'm really proud of it, too. But all of this is for me, but for my children and that they. They witnessed this. And that's the. I'll end on this like, or end this part of the conversation, since you keep making about me, and I'm gonna. Not the ideal to get divorced. And a blessing that has come from finding my person is that at the wedding five weeks ago, not only were my parents there to see it, after they picked me up off the ground, my dad has a couple kinds of cancer. We weren't sure, you know, so that was one of my fears in life, that my parents would never be able to see me find that true love again and to be taken care of and protected and feel safe. And they got to witness it.

[John]

My dad can exhale again.

[Sage]

And to see my three kids behind me. So first time I got married, they.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Yeah. They weren't alive yet, obviously. For them to get to witness that and to hear the vows and to see the little things and see his love for me and mine, for him and his children, that's the biggest silver lining of a difficult situation.

[John]

It's resurrection, right?

[Sage]

Oh, my God.

[John]

You get to see it reborn.

[Sage]

Sobbing because of that. And they got to see. And I was gonna make it a small wedding, and let's save money, and let's just. And then we're like, oh, this is a celebration. And you're darn right we're doing all of it.

[John]

All of it.

[Sage]

So I'd never been asked that question either. Why go do it again? But I do believe I know why I'm on this earth. To be a mom, to keep speaking up for others who maybe feel like they can't. Once you realize you have a voice, you better use it and a platform like you have and to show these babies like, this is, you know, so cool. It is. It's a huge blessing, But I thank.

[John]

You for sharing that.

[Sage]

No, now I feel like an idiot because I.

[John]

No, dude.

[Sage]

Way too much, but I do. You feel like I can see when I'm watching you, and if I'm just listening, I can hear it. I can't quite predict what you're gonna say yet. But I can hear it and I can hear, like I can see on TV what I see right now. Like you are so engaged and invested with every person and I don't understand it because, because not from your soul, in your heart, but physically.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Like you put yourself in their shoes, you push them and it's uncomfortable. And I'm sure it is painful for you at times, isn't it?

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Like I said, because, you know, you gotta call people out.

[John]

It gets heavy.

[Sage]

Yeah, yeah. Like, so how do you balance all of that? And then you can't bring that home like you had, was unable to really leave.

[John]

It's, it's, it's a, it's tough. It's tough. And I still, I still do like privately, like showing up to messy, messy situations and sitting people and people fly and stay at my house for a few days when they've blown their lives up and, and yeah, some days I do it better than others. Yeah. If I'm being honest. And I think what's become important for me is to be honest. Not that I'm hiding it well, but be honest with my kids. Like, I had a really tough one yesterday, or someone's coming to stay at the house and you don't know who they are, but we're going to treat them with compassion. I had it in one of my first semesters of grad school when I was getting my counseling degree. One of my professors, the great and powerful Aretha Marbley, we were doing a case study and I in all of my know everythingness, barked out in class, why won't this guy just quit drinking? And she said, no, sir, don't ever ask that question again. The room got quiet and I looked at her and again I was coming. I was a dean of students at a law school. So I'm in a suit and it's, I'm surrounded by 25 year olds and then there's me. And she said, don't ever ask somebody, why won't you quit drinking? Ask the question, what in the world happened in your life that this is the best way you and your body have figured out how to get through a day. And that question brought me all the way back to a thing that my dad told me when I was 10 or 9, when I was a kid. He said the worst part of his job was not all the blood and guts of being a homicide detective. It was sitting with people who had committed this crime like neon sign, murderer, murderer. And you listen to their story and to realize, oh my goodness, but for three decisions my parents made, I'm that guy. And it's. It was this thin line to the greatest blessing my mom and dad gave me, which was, you treat everybody with compassion. Because your drug. My drug is work. And in our culture, I get pat on the back and I get a good paycheck. I'm an addict. And if my buddy's drinking and my other buddy is a sex addict, this person gets divorced and half his stuff gets taken away. This person gets sent to rehab and I get a trophy. Right. So we're all barely hanging on. And so that's. And then over 20 years to just sit with hurting people. Like, when you hear the stories, usually what happens, you find out, oh, alcohol works. Oh, sex works. Oh, like smoking weed every night and not getting another job that protects you. Like, and it will take everything from you. Right. So it just. As a culture, we've just lost any sense of compassion for anybody.

[Sage]

Yeah.

[John]

And it's not a move for me. It's just the way I was raised and then it's just the jobs I've done. But when somebody calls in and says, I just did this, or this just happened to me, that's where I find that anchor point, which is, pull up a seat, man. We'll figure it out. But yeah, I don't always carry it well. It gets heavy. And again, I'm not a. I think that's the thing is I don't want to sit with somebody when I'm hurting who's thick skinned. It doesn't work. I want to sit with somebody who will sit with me and hold it with me for a bit. And I went and met with a group recently that they had a crazy, traumatic thing happen. And that was the first line I told him was, I'm going to hold it with you all today. And that was a rare one that my wife flew with me. And I was like, why are you coming? She never comes. She goes, I'm going to hold your hand on the plane ride home. And so that was.

[Sage]

A wife is amazing.

[John]

She's awesome. She's awesome. But it was this. To show up and be with somebody, you got to let your guard down and be present. And we don't have that anymore. Spouses don't do that for each other. We're all performing friendships don't do that. We're all Instagram and filtered up and like, so it's just holding it. But it comes at a cost. It's tiring. Yeah.

[Sage]

Do you sometimes look back? I think I know the answer to this question. But I mean, is it overwhelming? There's so many people who do rely on you outside of your family, people that you'll never meet. Probably hundreds of thousands, millions of people. Right. Who are relying on you. And maybe their situation isn't exactly like the one, the caller that's on the line, but close. And you know that they're going to literally take your word as scripture. Potentially.

[John]

Yeah. When I join this team, that was one of the things people don't get to see. The Dave that I get to see, which is like the very wise, goodwill hunting, esque math savant that, you know what I mean, telling everybody to pay off your credit card. Like when I see him do quadratic algebra into the chalkboard instead of acro. Like you're like, people don't get to see that guy. But the wise friend of mine said, hey, like over 30 years I've built this thing. And when a widow calls me and her husband just died and she got a tiny little inheritance and says, what do I do now? And I tell her where to put that money, she's going to go do it. And so he looked at me and he said, someone's going to call you and they're hurting and they're going to say, what do I do next? And whatever you tell them, they're going to go do. And there's a long pause and he said, so you have to be right. And I remember that's when the squat rack, like it's when I got it off and then went like that weight of that squat bar was like, oh.

[Sage]

So are you ever scared?

[John]

No, because I'm not afraid to be wrong. I'm not afraid to say I messed that up. And I think that's where most fear comes from. And if I'm wrong, I'll call you back. And I've done that. I've had people on my show that I screwed up and brought him back and said I blew that last call. And so I'm not afraid of that. The thing I'm most afraid of is not showing compassion to somebody. And people, people say crazy stuff and like I'm human. Like, people. And in my head I'm like, why are you doing that? Just stop doing. What an idiot. Right? Like. But yeah, that's the thing on most is that anyone ever feel disparaged or feel less than after they talk to me?

[Sage]

I don't feel like that's possible. Yeah, I've got a. I guess I.

[John]

Got a pretty crass sense of humor.

[Sage]

I Know you do. I know, but.

[John]

But my hope is that if I ever poked at somebody or made jokes at somebody, they would know I'm doing it with you, not at you.

[Sage]

Yeah. But the fact that you are there.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

And listening, and you listen.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

And that can be drawn out.

[John]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it gets edited, too. Some of those calls go live.

[Sage]

I can't imagine then. Right.

[John]

I, I, I can't hold all that. And so the beauty of this happening in my 40s is I would have tried to hold it all in my 20s and 30s. I can't. There's millions. I can't do that when they give me, like, a hundred million. I can't hold all that. I don't. I don't know. I used to laugh and think, like, my mom was hitting refresh somewhere for followers. Like, there's no way this many people is listening to this. I can hold my family, and I can hold my close friends, and I can hold new friends that I make. Right. So you'll leave here, you'll have my cell number, and you're in Nashville if. And you're newlywed. Five weeks. This is all still going great. If you call me in a year and you're like, hey, could we meet over at Frothy Monkey, me and my husband, we need to talk. Of course. 100. And I would hold that, but there's only a finite amount I can hold. Right. And so I have to know that people on the Internet are doing the best they can with what they got. And it's their job to go find people in their communities and therapists and whatever that can hold that for them. What I hope is just to be a picture of, I did this thing or this thing happened to me, and what can I do next? And then they can take that picture and then go ask somebody in their area to hold that with them.

[Sage]

Yeah. In that way, I need to let you go home and get that big hug from your daughter, Josephine.

[John]

Hug, dude. She's a baller, dude.

[Sage]

And turn on the soundtrack and then come jumping into your arms.

[John]

I'm kind of done with Frozen. I'm cut.

[Sage]

Yeah, I've been done. Yeah, but you have littler ones.

[John]

So I'm like, question is going to make progress. Part three and five, because it's an ATM at this point. I don't. No hate. I get it. Golly. There's lot frozen enough.

[Sage]

Let's find something else. Moana.

[John]

No, I love it. Yes, yes, yes.

[Sage]

Can we go different from Disney, please?

[John]

Just anything.

[Sage]

Just saying Anything, please.

[John]

It's, it's. Here's the thing. As long as people kept putting out songs that light up my 9 year old daughter and that make her want to come running for me at the door, you can just keep.

[Sage]

The music is incredible.

[John]

Keep putting them out.

[Sage]

Always has been, always will be. I. Maybe I can rap on this because.

[John]

Oh, I just got it. Can it not be Disney? It took me a second. That's a good one. That was good. I'm kind of slow on the uptake. Told you. I'm not the smart one in my house. That was good.

[Sage]

Savant John here now. I mean, I'm.

[John]

Well played.

[Sage]

Oh my gosh. A lot There. That's for the next time.

[John]

That was so good. Those layers. I like layers.

[Sage]

I know there's too many to me these days. That's why I'm stumbling right now. Did I read a story of you as a little boy in a closet listening to. Okay, come out of the closet. I did that one.

[John]

After that. I'm doing that. Okay, let's do it. Yes. I'm coming out on this show.

[Sage]

Oh my gosh. I can't. No listening. Or maybe it's just behind closed doors as your dad is bringing people into his home. As you do now.

[John]

Oh, he. So yeah, helping and you're young and listening and yeah, so he, he had not a walk in closet like we think of today. It was the old school one, right? That's like really small with the mirrors.

[Sage]

On the outside of the doors. Like in the 80s.

[John]

Yeah, dude. With like the black satin trim or. No, no, but he. There was no cell phones, obviously. And so we had a cord that was like 50ft long. And he would. When someone in the community would call, he would take that in the closet. Okay. And my bed shared that Sheetrock wall at night. And so I could hear one side of a conversation of the questions he would ask. And as he was trying to get information on how he could help and yeah, this is one of those things as a kid you don't know. You're just listening and it just, it downloads and so this is funny. So I. A lot of people call my show and talk about sex. Like what's going on? Sexist marriages, what's going on in their marriages and whatever. And here at Ramsey Solutions, they've talked about money forever. Right? So the first couple of years I was on my show, I would just answer the next right question for a show and there would be people going, do we. Can we ask that question? And it's like, that's the next question I need to ask that hurting person. And so one day I went home to my wife and I was like, hey, like, people in, in meetings are like blushing. Like, I asked these questions at like dinner parties and stuff. And she goes, my wife goes, yeah, you've been making dinner awkward for a long time. And so it's one of those, like, I just grew up with, what's the next right question? And now I know that's probably not always the best thing, but, but, but that's how, that's how I was raised is like, is he going to jail? Did he abuse that kid? Is he in the hospital? Like, so you, I think we have a fear on asking the next hard question. And so I just grew up, like, I need to ask that question so we can get all information. And sometimes when you ask that hard question, everybody exhales because somebody in a world of chaos that feel that that person feels anchored because they're not scared to ask, like, hey, like, my mom's got cancer. What stage is it? How long does she have to live? And nobody will ask that question. You probably say it, you have to ask that, like, right. And, and one of the great Dr. Andy Young, who trained me with crisis response, like that was the facts to your friends. Ask the hard question, say the hard thing. Your dad has passed away. Say the thing. And then you become trustworthy in that scary moment. But yeah, that was, that was a, that was a cool thing of, of getting to just have that ringside seat too. Listen to my dad navigate those. Yeah.

[Sage]

Are your parents still here?

[John]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sage]

And I, I guess as a parent now of a young adult, I can't imagine how proud they are of you.

[John]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Sage]

You've done.

[John]

Yeah, I like to think that, yeah, that's, again, that's the, my dad's a 73 year old policeman, right.

[Sage]

He, he owned his other stuff.

[John]

He did. Yeah. No, I, I, it's one of those. I realized this a couple years ago that I cast him in a movie he didn't know he was in. And then I blamed him for not saying the lines. And my parents are so proud of me. I don't know if they can see straight. And yet my dad doesn't. We don't have the Hallmark moments, right, where the music swells and he comes running to me and, and hugs me, right? And says, I'm so proud of you. It doesn't happen. But I know that when I showed up with my son and he had planned Sunday, like S O n right for Hank. We're gonna go do this, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this. And he comes by and says, that's a great young man. That's my dad in his 70s. I mean, his 70 year old former Texas cop language thing. I'm really proud of the work you're doing. Or my daughter comes in all haywire and man, she is. She is an amazing, amazing force. That's him saying, I'm super proud of you. I saw you on the radio the other day. I'm proud of you. Right. So I've learned that it's my job to not walk around with my lip out saying, why don't you? Why don't you? And I tell my son every single day, I'm proud of you. Right. So it's my job to take that baton and say, all right, I'm going to take the things that I got that are amazing. I'm going to be grateful for him and the things that I wish I'd gotten. That's my job, to bring that to the next generation.

[Sage]

And that's not wasted. What you didn't. Didn't get.

[John]

That's not wasted.

[Sage]

Are you proud of you?

[John]

I am not of this stuff. This stuff will come and go. This stuff will end as fast as it came. I am very proud of the work I've done to be a good dad and a good husband. Yeah. Especially in reflecting on the years on. It wasn't good that. Yeah. I'm very proud of that. Yeah.

[Sage]

And for what you're doing for people that you'll never meet.

[John]

Yeah. I'm learning that the things that we're good at, other people aren't good at them. Right. So, like when a plumber comes to my house, one of my deals is when I hire a plumber. Like, I get to watch if I'm here and I'm mesmerized. How they melt metal and do all what they do. And I'll ask questions. And I can see it on. I'm like, dude, I'm just, this is what I do. And so I'm learning to be proud of. I don't know another way to sit with a hurting person when they come in. I don't run through a checklist or anything like that.

[Sage]

Sure.

[John]

And so I'm learning to. That that's not a normal thing and that, that is like, that's just been my job for a quarter century. Right. I'm learning to be proud of. Hey, you do good work for People. Yeah, that one's harder. You know what I mean? That's harder to be reflective on. But I am really proud of the work I've done with a therapist and with my wife and with my kids.

[Sage]

And now we benefit.

[John]

I appreciate that.

[Sage]

I mean it. And asking those hard questions and pushing and being so open and vulnerable. Like, to me, that's where the beauty lies, is when we are willing to open up and share the ugly, the scary stuff, whatever it is, the embarrassing stuff. And then people realize they're not alone, that, okay, maybe I can push through this because John did or Sage did or whoever did.

[John]

That's the hope, right?

[Sage]

Yes, that's the hope.

[John]

Is that you? You. I'm gonna paint a picture of what this actually looks like. Can I end with this? This happened recently, so I did an event with Dave and several others. And so it's one of those that you show up at the event, and you're like, what am I doing here? It was like, Dave and Nate Bragazzi and John Maxwell and. I mean, these epic legacy people. And then you see your name on the little thing. You're like, what are we doing here? Just felt dumb. I didn't have the greatest night. My talk went good, but it wasn't up to the standard that I hold myself on a stage. And by the time I. The plane had landed back in Nashville from Denver, I'd work myself up into a frenzy. Like, you should quit this thing. What are you doing? You're waiting. And it's. I've done a thousand events, but this one just sat on my spirit wrong. So I got home the next morning. I texted the woman who does the booking at the local comedy club here at Zany's. And this isn't just a normal club. Like, on any given night, Nate pops up, Theo Vaughn pops up, John Chris pops. Like, legends. Dusty slays in it. Like, so you're just hanging out in the back, and then some. Or one of your heroes walks in, is like, hey, you mind if I cut in line to do 10 minutes? You're like, yeah, of course. Like, it's amazing, right? But you're getting to watch all these craftsmen. It's so great.

[Sage]

Amazing.

[John]

So I texted her and said, I gotta do 10 minutes. I gotta get back up on that horse. And I just didn't feel good about what just happened. I need to get back up and not stew on it. And she's like, great. I have Nashville All Stars night tonight. Friday night. Come on. And I was like, sweet. I didn't Just bomb. I Other planetary bomb.

[Sage]

What?

[John]

In the. In a way that's never happened before since when I say it wasn't funny. I mean, as the joke left, my opening thing. That works all the time, right? You have, like, a couple that you always.

[Sage]

Yeah, yeah.

[John]

It wasn't a silence. It was a vacuumed. Like, it was like. The energy was, like, withdrawn there. It was like, not pity. It was like, oh, God. What? Who are you?

[Sage]

Oh, I'm uncomfortable for you right now.

[John]

I didn't know what to do. I had no psychology for it. I've been speaking for 20. I've never had this happen to where it's just, like, nothing. And this extraordinary. I got through it, and I didn't get him back. I got it to where there were some chuckles at the end. And it's like, there's a little clock, and you're like, go, go, go. Right Faster. Oh, go, go. I got back there a few, maybe a month before, me and my buddy George Camel had done a night, and we'd sold it out twice. Like, we sold it out. They called, you want to do another night? Yep. I mean, do another show that night. Yep. Sold that one out. And I'd left, and someone said, oh, he's okay to come through. He's a comic. And when they said that, I was like, oh, I'm one of them.

[Sage]

I'm.

[John]

I'm in the club. I bomb so bad. And I walk back there in this amazing comic from New York, Tina. She grabs my shoulders, and she said, now you're one of us. And I drove home, and I laughed all the way home. But here's the thing. I was free. I was like, oh, that's what happens. And I'm going home to a house with air conditioning where the woman of my dreams is asleep in the house. My kids are safe and healthy. But it was the other side of that fear, and I was completely untethered. And to tell you, I go do stand up there every week now just as a way to practice and to hang out with somebody. I'm trying to make new friends as an adult to say my standup has gotten better. It's gotten better logarithmically, like, comically, like, no pun intended. It's gotten so much better because I'm un. I'm unhooked from. What if this goes badly now? Because I know, and it's. It's miserable. And then you just wake up the next day, and you brush your teeth and you go work out in your garage, and then you go do the next thing again. And it's this freedom. On the other side of what do you think the worst is going to happen? Right. And I can't tell you. It's just an exhale, like, I bombed it. Okay. And then I text a couple of days later, can I come up this weekend? She goes, yeah, sure. I'll put you on Monday. And it's. You're back. Right. But it's when that comedian from New York, when she told me, who I'd never met, she was a fan of the show, I'd never met her before, of my podcast, she. When she said, now you're one of us, it was like, oh, we all are just struggling to try to do through this. Whether we're being married, we're trying to be on stage, trying to be a parent, trying to. There's. It's. It's okay. On the other side of the worst thing that happens. And then you got to go back again. Do it again. Right.

[Sage]

Thank goodness she was there.

[John]

What a blessing. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sage]

Huge gift.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sage]

Oh, wow.

[John]

You know, you didn't do good on stage. When they ask you, how's that audience? Because that's how you know you didn't do great.

[Sage]

I. I can't. I've only been to one comedy club in my whole life. It was. It was Comedy Shop, Comedy Store.

[John]

Who was playing? Who'd you go see?

[Sage]

Well, I knew Howie Mandel, and Howie's the one. The reason that got in, just because of some of the work I did on this show previously. And there. It was, actually a good lineup.

[John]

Oh, what a fun night.

[Sage]

Oh, it was so fun. But then, you know, when the one kid got on at the end, and I was like, oh, oh, no. Because I wanted to hug him.

[John]

Oh, you want to hug him?

[Sage]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I just want. Yeah. And you can't. But, hey, I hope somebody was backstage saying to him what that woman, what Tina said to you.

[John]

Oh, it was amazing. Yeah.

[Sage]

I am forever grateful for this. Thank you for being like, I always loved you in a very healthy, normal way, like radio, because of your just enthusiasm, your kindness, just honesty. Right. And I couldn't imagine that you were better in person. And it's times 100. Like, I'm so grateful for this.

[John]

Thank you for your hospitality.

[Sage]

Thank you, hospitality. It's your house. Well, your studio, but I'll claim it as mine if you'll let me move in here. You've read all these books because it's beautiful. Yeah. No, if there's an audiobook for them, fine. But reading them.

[John]

Congratulations. Five weeks in five weeks and still having that gross. Like, oh, so gross.

[Sage]

I know, I know. But it is such a God thing. It's such a God thing and I'm very grateful for a second opportunity. And, yeah, I'm like a little child.

[John]

It's the best giddy.

[Sage]

I. And. And I do make him coffee. You asked about the tea. When's the last time you made. Yeah, I promise you now, I will never not make his coffee. Those little things.

[John]

The next time you get not big mad, but little mad, go do one nice thing and exhale through it and see what happens.

[Sage]

Do I have to say nice things in my head?

[John]

Nope. No. That's a whole other podcast. But no.

[Sage]

Okay.

[John]

Fake tea making. It's a really bad rap.

[Sage]

Oh, I. I got very good at that in television. Network television for 30 years. Commercial break. And then it's like, hi.

[John]

Oh, exactly.

[Sage]

This is totally fake.

[John]

That's right. That's right.

[Sage]

Thank you.

[John]

You're the best. Thank you.

[Sage]

God bless you. Thank you. Thank you. Than.