← The Sage Steele Show
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- [00:00]
A
Yep, I'm here. The Dave Ramsey Network, Ramsey Solutions, here in Nashville, Tennessee, on this beautiful campus where I got to sit down with the founder of this personal finance empire, Dave Ramsey himself. And let me tell you, I learned so much. He is now 65 years old and nowhere close to retirement. But we went back to the beginning when he was growing up. When later he filed for bankruptcy as a young husband and a young father. How he learned to become a man, a real man, not just for himself, but for his wife and for his kids. And now, where he has for a long time been the leading personal finance expert in the world. Most importantly to me, and I know to many of you, he has done all of this while leading with God as his priority. And I got to see that up close and personal. Today, here on his campus in Nashville, Dave Ramsey, the star of this week's episode of the Sage Deal Show. This might be a. Maybe, not maybe someone else has come into your amazing studios and asked you to take your shoes off.
- [01:04]
B
My shoes off.
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A
So this is a first. Okay, here's the story. They're brand new. What I did. When I started my show a year and a half ago, the whole premise of it was like how I like to sit on couches or nice chairs with friends and just talk and open up. So I put them on no matter what. My guests don't have to, but I did bring a brand new pair in case you wanted to get cozy. Look at his eyes. He's gonna kill me.
- [01:33]
B
I'm not gonna kill you. When I got up this morning, this was not on my bingo card. I'm just saying.
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A
No pressure at all. But, I mean, I might judge you.
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B
You might.
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A
But look, they're brand. They're Dana White.
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B
I promise they're clean. Is that what you're. Why you keep saying they're brand new?
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A
They're brand new. Dana White put them on with his camo pants, and he put hot pink ones on. So I'm just saying he wasn't concerned about his masculinity with his leather jacket and camo pants and hot pink fuzzy socks. So don't be offended if I do. No pressure. And if not, feel them. You can keep them.
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B
Oh, my God.
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A
And they're pretty masculine. I didn't bring the hot pink ones for you.
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B
Good. Thank you. That's a step up. Yeah. I mean, Dana could pull that off, but I'm not sure.
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A
Look. And they're even long.
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B
Look at that.
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A
You can use them for another day. The winter's coming here in Tennessee, isn't it?
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B
Yeah.
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A
I'm gonna be heading down to Florida.
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B
You know, I actually have an excellent use for these. You know what it is?
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A
What?
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B
I'm gonna make my wife smile tonight.
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A
Is she a fuzzy shot person like me?
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B
She would love them.
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A
Okay. Tell her obviously they're brand new. I would never do it otherwise. I thought, should I leave?
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B
They're brand new.
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A
Are they brand new versus just new?
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B
Yeah. As opposed to brand new.
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A
Spanking new. Yeah. No, no, no.
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B
Are they new?
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A
Yes, sir. And the other funny thing is, so I always thought if I take the tag off, well, it's quicker for people who want to put them on. Otherwise, you're doing this. But then I'm like, wait. Then they might not believe me that they're new, but they're new. So just. This is my thing.
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B
Hey, I love it.
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A
Judge Free Zone, right?
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B
It's a good branding. I like it. I like it.
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A
I have to say, I have been here one other time to be on Ken Coleman show.
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B
Oh, yeah, it was lovely.
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A
About a year and a half ago. And it was actually the one time you guys got. Well, not the one time. About 10 inches of snow.
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B
Oh, good.
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A
A year and a half ago.
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B
Oh, that never happens. Yeah.
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A
And I. Cause that's what I said to myself. And I thought, oh, I'm going to Tennessee from Connecticut. I don't need. And you guys don't know what the heck to do with snow.
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B
No, no, no. We're clueless.
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A
Oh, it's shut down.
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B
They shut down. They clean all the milk and the bread of the stores. Like, we're gonna be shut down for two years.
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A
Exactly.
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B
Like Covid or something. And no, but it's gone in two days. But you've got enough milk to last two months, so. Yeah.
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A
Which means it'll be spoiled. It was awesome, though, because I'd always this. And then to see it in person. And of course, meet Ken, who's so kind. Was awesome today. Driving in, I didn't follow directions very well, and I took a left because I saw the flagpole, and I think the event center was calling my name.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
It's beautiful.
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B
Well, thank you.
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A
And to see hundreds of people flocking up the hill. It's a sight for someone like me who's never. Who hasn't spent much time here. What is it like for you when you see. And I know that's a Monday thing. Right. It's the Monday.
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B
Monday staff meeting. And on Wednesday, we do a devotional. Have an outside pastor or somebody come in and speak. And it's pretty incredible. You're just reminded that God. God has blessed us beyond our wildest imagination. When you stand up on that stage, it's an incredible stage. The room is really tight. 2dB drop from the back of the room to the front of the room. We've got it dialed in. It's a speaker's paradise because a speaker owned it and helped design. Yeah, it's sweet. We love it.
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A
What really stood out to me both times now, the people that you have working here. How is everyone so nice?
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B
We get rid of the other ones.
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A
Get them out.
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B
Well, you don't fit in. You know, you don't fit in and we don't. I mean, it's okay to be passionate or have a good argument about something, but being mean to somebody is different than that. So we have lots of arguments around here, but not mean ones.
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A
Conversations.
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B
We're not cussing and yelling, yelling at each other and all this kind of stuff. And we don't have to do that to get our work done. And we get lots of work done.
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A
Yes, you do. I think there's proof of that for sure. It was striking to me, though, and I think probably, you know, 30 years in network television has, you know, it hardens you a little. I feel proud that I never, you know, I never changed in that way. And I have a military father, a retired, you know, West Point graduate father, who would never have allowed that. And the people who do love me would never have allowed that. But, man, I think I lowered my.
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B
Bar.
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A
As far as teammates and employees that I worked with because it was an ugly environment. Network television, really, on any level, local tv, it's so competitive, and people will do anything to get there.
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B
And there's a. In everything that you and I do, there's a tendency towards shallowness, towards appearance only, instead of substance. And the other thing you didn't do, watching from the outside was you didn't let people violate your boundaries.
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A
I did at first, many years, actually. But we learn. And I feel like, yeah, the fact that you say that if people act a certain way, they're not welcome to stay. That message is loud and clear without having to say it right?
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B
Oh, we say it. We just say, we're French. Oui, oui. If you want to be a we, this is how we act and this is who we are. We bring it. We're playing for the Super Bowl. Every play, we bring it. We're passionate. We're excellent at what we do. And we're also going to treat Each other. Right. And we're going to be people of character. And I run into some of the parents here now, parents of people that work here now, and they say, thanks for having an environment where my daughter can be safe, you know, and. Or my son isn't tempted by crazy women and all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, I mean, it's. But we work at it. It's a process.
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A
Was there a time you can remember way back, I mean, you mentioned the word boundaries where you didn't have good boundaries as a leader?
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B
Not on that issue. Because we started this company after having gone broke, and I had met God on the way up. I got to know him on the way down. So this company has been God's from day one. And how are you going to conduct a company that's owned by God? There's a certain way to conduct that. Right. And so that. This one's not ever been that way. When we started, I was not a good leader. I was more of a boss. And bosses push and leaders pull. And so I had to learn over time, you know, how to create the values and say, these are our guardrails. And if you're outside of that, me included, then you're not representing who Ramsey is and who we. It started with who Dave Ramsey is, but now it's all of the other people that are Ramsey. And, you know, what's that brand mean? Well, it means someone that knows what they're doing, they're on time, they're kind to everybody, behind the scenes and on the camera, and we tell the truth.
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A
At what point did you realize that difference between bosses and leaders? Because I love that. Bosses push, leaders pull.
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B
I probably had 10 or 15 people, and we were all running around in circles, getting nothing done except, you know, just spinning out. And I was like. Because I thought if you hired people, they would just work. And that was kind of dumb. Apparently, not everybody does. And I thought if you hired people, they would care, and not everybody does. I thought if you hired people, they'd be on time, and not everybody does. And so trains run on time here. And we care and we work. And so if you want to be a we, you know, and. But it started with me just kind of pushing everybody. And what I figured out was, you can't push some people. They just don't fit. And it's not mean. It's just. You're not. You don't want to do this. It's not how you want to do it. So you should be somewhere doing the thing you want to do instead of here. And so we gave them the opportunity to be a blessing somewhere else.
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A
You say it so nicely. I find at times, and I am starting off now like starting over career wise, and it's been a few years and I love it. But starting off like learning to lead in that way, because I think I probably inadvertently led just by what my role was. But then you realize, oh, wait, yeah, this person's looking up to you and they're watching everything that you're doing, good, bad, or ugly. And what advice would you give for people, hopefully younger than me, who are learning these lessons much sooner as far as the boss versus leader?
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B
Well, I just, I think it's really important to decide. And we evolved into it. We didn't. Yeah, we weren't smart enough to figure it out up front. I mean, it's over time, but we eventually decided what our values are. And these are our values. And this is so a lot of decisions when they come up against that value are already made. You just have the pain of implementing them now. And so again, this is who we are. We're these 14 core values. And they're not aspirational. They're not meaning we don't put them in a corporate brochure and wish we were that or tell everybody we think we're that. No, this is actually who we are. And when we cease to be one of those things, we don't get to be a we. Or we have to do some kind of course correction. And so that keeps everybody on the same page. And then we go, okay, now which player are we going to call to put the ball in the end zone? That's the only question. Then it's not, are you a person of character? It's not, how do you treat your spouse? It's not, we don't have to get into all that. It's just now, because all that's established, that's the underpinning, that's the foundation. And then you can develop relationships and then trust. And everything moves at the speed of trust. So once everybody trusts each other, they've not got a knife out at each other's back. And the only arguments we have are about which play to call, what's the right business decision, how can we best serve the people outside this building.
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A
Are you still learning in that capacity?
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B
Oh, yeah, definitely.
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A
Yeah. I think sometimes. I wanted you to emphasize that sometimes people think, oh, well, look, look at this. This empire. And he's made it, and he's helped millions of people make it. What is that? Like for you daily, what do you think you're learning the most still?
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B
I mean, I think I'm just learning the depth of some of these things that we said, kind of understood them at one level, and now we're understanding them at a deeper level, that there's more to the onion than what I thought it was. I mean, something as simple as teaching people to get out of debt. When I first started teaching people to get out of debt, I. It was a math thing for me. You can't invest money if you give it all to a car payment. Hello. And so it's a displacement thing. And then the Bible says the borrower is slave to the lender. And I thought, okay, that's what that means. The master's taking your money. Right. You're a slave. And I've had that feeling. I felt like I was in chains. And so that got that. That was the first layer. But now we start to understand all these decades later and we've got the social proof that it affects your health. As debt levels have gone up, hypertension, heart attacks have gone up in the U.S. obesity has gone up in the U.S. now, does debt cause obesity? No, no, no, no. But, but it does cause stress and anxiety. And it does. And number one cause of divorce in North America, it's money fights and money problems. And so there's lots of things we can fight about, but in a marriage, but, but this is the number one. And say, okay, what's the socioeconomic implications of divorces caused by finance? And we don't have to get into the interest rates. This is way deeper than that. And what are the career implications of someone who is not handcuffed to a series of payments? And so they don't stay in a toxic situation. Instead they move to a healthier situation and prosperity. So how many people that you know, for instance, running your own business, if you don't have the banker looking down your back, you know, over your shoulder on every decision you're making, you make different decisions, better ones, and you tend to prosper. You can take more risk because you don't have any debt. And so the worst thing can happen is I lose some money. But we're going to try this. Let's try it. You know, and so all of those things are different layers to the get out of debt thing. It's not just as simple as I'm sick and tired of having no money after my pay, all my bills.
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A
I think people underestimate that completely.
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B
I did.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I'm the guy that Teaches it.
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A
But don't you think. Well, we all know that that's the reason why people have listened. Because you've been so open about what you just said. I did. I underestimated it. And that's one thing I think is missing in general, no matter what the industry is, is people like to talk about their successes. It's easy, it's fun, it's comfortable. But when you can go deep about your lowest points and be vulnerable to me, that's when I think that teaching really takes place. And you've been open about that.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I did. I screwed up everything. And I think it's been a. It started out just as a way to communicate, to get. Because people will listen if you're authentic.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But it's evolved into actually our brand. It's like, you know, this whole place was started by a guy who went bankrupt. How weird is that? You know, this is weird. The guy who's best known in America right now for teaching people about money started from bankruptcy. There's something wrong. There's something backwards about that. If you think about it, it's amazing. But, I mean, it's. But all it did was it said, okay, I. You know, I wrote in the very first book, I remember standing in the shower with it as hot as I could stand it, crying, because I had a little baby and a toddler, and my marriage is hanging on by a thread, and I was so scared. I didn't know what to do. We were losing everything. And that connects because most people have had. Not maybe that exact. But they've had that feeling. And they go, yeah, I can talk to this guy. He gets it. He understands. And I still remember it. I mean, I would get a call in the air, and it's. You can. I can hear it in their voice. I can hear. And I can hear their throat is tight and their stomach's high. And it reminds. My body starts reacting. I start remembering it. Then, you know, and. And then I. Then I have permission to go, you got to stop doing the stupid stuff, you know, that's killing you. And it gives you permission to enter in. In a different way.
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A
How old were you that day in the shower?
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B
27.
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A
You're a baby with a baby.
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B
Yeah.
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A
With two babies with two at the time.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Can you recall what was going through your mind? Not just that moment, but day to day when you're. When you're just trying to survive?
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B
You know, Sharon and my wife and I have talked about it a lot over the years. I had no idea at the time what she was experiencing. I was watching this crazy woman because she was living. And she said it was just sheer terror. She said it's like you're driving down the road in the middle of night and you hit a patch of ice in the winter and the car is spinning and it's spinning and you open your mouth to scream and nothing comes out. And you're gonna hit something hard. And we don't know if we're gonna make it when we do. But for this moment, all I've got is your whole body seizes up in sheer terror. And that's how she described it because there was no moorings, there was nothing to get a hold of for her because she had married Sir Galahad and turns out he was goober. I mean, so I mean, she was screwed. She's along for the ride. This guy don't know how to drive. I'm just saying. And so for me it was just a battle. I was, it was a war. I was not going to lose. And so there was, but I was behind and I didn't think I was. I couldn't see mathematically how I was going to catch up, but I was not going to lose. I don't care. From 56 to nothing and it's in the fourth quarter, I'm going to catch, I'm going to make it and I'm going to be the guy. And so we fought from the time they called our first notes until we filed. It was actually two and a half years. We fought and I did and fought and fought and fought. So it was like this constant state of fear based anger, you know, and, and then afterwards it was just a lost. And so I was not only broke, I was broken then. It was just the self esteem just went gone and sat around, whined a lot after that.
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A
Where does that competitiveness come from though? Because even when you were getting crushed, you, you didn't stop fighting.
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B
I don't know. I mean, where does, where's that come from in anybody? It could. It's childhood, it's DNA. It's, you know, is it nature or nurture? Is it because some people run?
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A
We see a lot of people run.
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B
Yeah, I mean that's okay. And that's an okay reaction too. You know, people react, you know, differently to that. You decide if it's anger or if it's fear. And the competitive is the anger side and the fear is the run side, it's flight or fight, you know, thing. And what causes that and how does your Mind analyze that that causes you to think you can stay in there when it's kind of obvious you're not going to make it. But anyway, you stick a stick at it. And you know, those are old sports stories almost, if you will, and. But I don't know exactly where that came from, but it was cleansing for sure and it was thorough.
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A
So the fight, fight, fight, and then you lose and broke and broken. I don't know that. Oh my gosh, I haven't heard it put that way. Face to face at least. And you don't have many options at that point. Right. And you can sit there and continue to whine, but not if you have a wife and two kids.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I had to go back. Yeah, I had to go. The water was cut off, the electricity was cut off. I had to go to work. There wasn't any choice. I had to go do something immediately. So I didn't have the luxury of, you know, doing a six week off site somewhere in therapy or whatever. No, it wasn't like on my list. Wasn't on my bingo card. No. But nothing wrong with that if you've got that luxury. But I just didn't especially then.
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A
It's a different time. That's really not as much what I feel like we did and here, just go talk to a therapist and you'll be better.
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B
Yeah, people might have, I mean, I spent time with pastors, I spent time with good friends who were men of character that were successful and one of my buddies actually, and I know where I was sitting, we were at lunch and I was whining like I was some kind of little known form of prayer or something. And it was like, hey, me, me, me, me. You know, I was, you know, well, the government did this and the banker did this and you did. He goes, hey, you signed up for the trip, bubba. You signed those papers that allowed them to put all that on you. You stepped into the bear trap and then you're shocked that they snapped it on you. And he goes, you got a lot of lemons, you probably ought to make some lemonade and you ought to start telling people, you know, the stuff you're learning. And I went, and that's probably the beginning of me starting to talk about this is what we're learning and this is what we went through. And.
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A
Yeah, and that was a friend.
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B
Yeah, that's called a good friend.
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A
That's a really good friend. I think we all need more.
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B
Most of them will just, you know, pat you on.
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A
It's awful.
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B
It's horrible. I'm sorry what you're going through, it's like bucket up, buttercup. I mean, come on, you know, let's go.
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A
The I think about you in that space at that age and you know, you're a man. And men, I think we're getting back to that these days, I hope. But men are being taught to be real men and to lead and to nurture and to, well, nurture more so us. But to take care, to guide. But financially in particular, how did you get that part back? Because when you're broke and you're broke in as a man, I feel like that's different than as a woman.
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B
It probably is. You know, I think guys are probably a whole lot more concerned about it and to a degree it can be really toxic. Yeah, it's, it's a false narrative if you will. But yeah, too much of our self esteem is based on what we earn or what we acquire or whatever. And you know, number one cause of male suicide is financial and almost no females commit suicide over money.
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A
Really?
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B
Yeah, it's almost always relational because they're nurture relational. And I mean you can argue about the, you know, the differences in the sexes and you can be mad at me for saying this, but that's just data. I mean, it's just data. That's just, you can't really argue with the data. It's called a fact.
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A
Yes.
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B
And so the. But, but yeah, I went through that and you know, I don't know, I, I. The first thing I did, only thing I knew how to do, just go back to work. And my wife grew up on a farm in East Tennessee, so the only thing she knew to do is go to work. So we just went to work, you know, that's all we knew. It wasn't like it was some kind of therapy, but money usually comes from work. And so we started getting some money again and we could pay our bills again and we could get the IRS off our back and we could little by little by little by little start putting it back together. And we just wrote everything out on a yellow pad and we got some money, we went down the yellow pad as far as we could go and then do it again and do it again. And that became known as a budget later.
- [23:54]
A
How close were you to losing your marriage?
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B
We argued and, but it was, you know, the worst chemistry that you can have probably in a relationship is where my self esteem is gone and she's terrified and out of that terror the claws come out and it's the Worst thing can happen to my self esteem. And the lower my self esteem gets, the worse she is, the more she's terrified because she didn't think we were going to, you know, ever be okay again. And so that's the chemistry of it. But it's almost like you said that we really didn't have the luxury. We didn't have the money to get a divorce. We didn't have the luxury of even talking about it. So we kind of stuffed it. And about four years later, we were making money and got comfortable again. And all that stuff has a high rate of resurrection. He came back to the surface and we end up in the marriage counselor's office. That's when we almost killed each other.
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A
After you got control.
- [25:00]
B
Yeah, four years later.
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A
Because you just had to bury it to survive.
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B
Yeah, we just buried all the emotions of it and never really talked about the things we've been talking about right now. We just said, shut up. We need some money for food, you know, and we can really, you know, good, you have a feeling, but I need to go get some money for food. Deal with the feeling later, you know. And so it really was that way. It was kind of a desperation thing. And so. But once we got almost like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs, once we got off of the basics, needs covered, then we start to think about, wait a minute, this guy's an idiot. He lost everything. And wait a minute, this woman's meaner than snot when she's mad and afraid. And she about clawed my eyes out. Not physically, but metaphorically and man, you know? And so, yeah. And all of a sudden we're like. We had the luxury of having a feeling and it wasn't good, it wasn't pretty. And so, yeah, we spent about a year and a half or so with the marriage counselor every week and just learned to put language on what we had been through and have empathy for where the other one had been sitting. And then that allowed us to heal over time.
- [26:08]
A
It was a choice, though, to take that step in and go talk to that marriage counselor and dig deep. And I think that's why so many people choose not to. Because it sounds great, just go take. But then you have to actually do the work.
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B
Yeah, it's a pain. Cause you gotta deal with a person in your mirror and they're awful.
- [26:28]
A
I'm so glad you said that, though, because I think sometimes we do this, and if we don't do that, it's never.
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B
Well, a good coach, a good marriage counselor is gonna Call you out on your stuff, not just take sides.
- [26:42]
A
I mean, whose idea was it? Was it together, we gotta do this or did she drag you, you dragged her?
- [26:50]
B
No, there wasn't any dragging. It was like we got to do something or this is not or we're done.
- [26:54]
A
You had three kids at that time. You had the third one.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah, by then. By then we had three.
- [26:59]
A
What's the biggest thing you learned from therapy? Then.
- [27:03]
B
Again, I think it gave us structure to put words to what we had been walking in because we hadn't bothered. We were just walking and then to hear where the other one had been walking in at the same time. And so that gave me the ability to tell what I just told that she was terrified of my self esteem. I didn't sit around and think about my self esteem was damaged. I didn't have that thought ever. I wasn't smart enough to think about it. And so I'm just again back to task orientation versus personal analysis or whatever. And so I didn't have the luxury. And so, yeah, that's the process. And he gave us language and then taught us to fight fair instead of just fight mean. Because she always say she's from hills of East Tennessee, frying pan throwing. There's an Olympic event. So she was good at it.
- [28:01]
A
Oh, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that one. Or not. Maybe she would have hit me.
- [28:05]
B
Steel magnolia. I'm just saying. Yeah.
- [28:09]
A
Is that the last time you went to marriage counseling or therapy or have you continued to draw from that?
- [28:15]
B
What we did after that was this thing started to blow up right after that. We were just kind of at a level. But there was nothing into a spotlight yet. But as the spotlight started getting brighter and the money started escalating, those are two dangerous things, especially if you're dealing with a lot of wounds. And so we set up several things of accountability in our lives to keep us on the. Keep us between the guardrails. And one of them was for about 10 years, we go back to that same coach, same counselor. She's a professional, professional therapist. We go back once a year and just do a check in. And if it went rough, we'd do two or three check ins, you know, and she would just because she was not impressed with Dave Ramsey, you know, and so feisty little woman. And yeah, she, she helped us a lot in that regard. So we had her as accountability and then we had, you know, our team of leaders here. The way we build leaders is we hold each other accountable. And Dave's not, It's not like we don't have any emperor has no clothes thing at all. They go, hey, ugly, don't do that.
- [29:27]
A
You know, so that's beautiful advice. I think sometimes we think, oh, I went, I got my therapy and I'm fixed. Not thinking about the fact that life still continues. Your life, your wife or your husband's life, your kids lives, your employees lives.
- [29:43]
B
Well, and the problem with wealth and fame is it magnifies who you are, good and bad. And so it's gonna. Cause it's gonna burn off all the other stuff. And so if you have an anger problem and you get money, oh my goodness. Or you get some fame, oh, my goodness. You know, if you have a. If you're compassionate and you get money, it shows up as a philanthropist. You know, it shows up as the generosity factor goes off the chart. So you just become more of what you are. So whatever is going on, that's crazy. You're gonna get super crazy, you know, and even your family around you, they'll go crazy. They're magnified too. And it just shows up everywhere.
- [30:23]
A
You talked so much about. I mean, you still do. And I'm grateful for it. Your faith and even earlier today. And that's your thing. I met God on my way up. Right. When was that?
- [30:38]
B
24 age.
- [30:39]
A
24.
- [30:40]
B
Yeah. And I was someone that needed Jesus. I was a hell raising, beer drinking hillbilly for sure.
- [30:48]
A
Can you give me one good juicy story, please?
- [30:52]
B
One good juice.
- [30:52]
A
Hellraiser, Hillbilly drinking.
- [30:57]
B
Ah, you know, I mean, college drinking stories. We've all got. No, we don't all have them. I've got them. But I know plenty of people that got them. And I mean, I don't know of a certain thing. It's just some.
- [31:10]
A
Were you wild?
- [31:11]
B
Well, I mean, we would. I grew up in a neighborhood where you got in fights and that was. That's completely foreign to people Now I.
- [31:20]
A
Think we need more of it.
- [31:22]
B
I don't. Well, no, I don't think we do.
- [31:24]
A
People got hurt, you know what I mean? Sometimes where it's like, you know what the bully like, no, we need to pull it.
- [31:30]
B
You need to learn to punch the bully in the nose, but probably metaphorically.
- [31:34]
A
Okay, fine.
- [31:35]
B
I'm not gonna teach my. I didn't teach my son to go hit the kid physically. I'm just like. But you do need, you need to stand your ground.
- [31:41]
A
Yeah. Don't back down.
- [31:42]
B
And if, you know, if you have to defend yourself physically, don't be a worse Right. But. But that's a defensive thing, not an offensive thing. And so. Yeah, no, I wouldn't be a proponent of that as a parent or a grandpa, either one. The grandkids fighting at Papa Dave's house is. It's limited. Yes, to a certain degree. Yeah.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah.
- [32:03]
B
So. But, yeah, I was. Not that I was. Yeah, we would. I mean, if you. Country song almost, you know, it's a bar fight or whatever. That's not good.
- [32:15]
A
Aren't there some real nostalgic parts of that, though? I feel like it was such. I mean, I was. I'm 52 now, so I feel like a complete. I am a completely different generation than most people in this room. And there was some innocence in that. Yeah, we were tough, but there was also some innocence. And despite the wild times back then, as a hillbilly, as you said, and running around.
- [32:38]
B
You know what's weird is it's not a. There was a code. I don't know if there was innocence, but there was a code. I never saw a knife in the middle of one of those things, and I certainly never saw a gun. And every one of us had a gun in the back window of our pickup at high school in those days, but I never saw a gun come out in the middle of something like that. That was code, you know, that's what criminals did, you know, and you don't. And there was not a. I don't know why there was a difference in the mental health approach to that than there is now. There's so much derangement around firearms and things now with the argument over guns. And I'm a gun person because I grew up with them. It's just like I grew up with car keys. I grew up with a pistol, you know, I mean, it's like I grew up with a bicycle. To me, it's all the same kind of place in my psyche. And. But I understand that everybody didn't have that, and so I'm not gonna be in a situation, but that's. It was weird. You look back on that nostalgically in a good way, that if we're gonna do stupid stuff like that that you shouldn't do, at least there was no one getting killed.
- [33:50]
A
You know, you deal with it.
- [33:51]
B
You. You. You know, your. Your eye might be swelled shut, your nose might be sideways, you know, knuckles, you know, all that, but. But you're not dead. You know, it's like. That's different than some of the stuff today.
- [34:07]
A
That's what I mean. I think I long for that where it was resolved in a more. Certainly a more humane way. Right. But just.
- [34:15]
B
I don't know. But I don't know how you can be one and not the other. It's baffling to me a little bit if you think about it. It's like the culture that I was in. Embrace that. But there was no. I never knew anybody that got killed. Me either, you know, anything like that. And my kids all do, you know, they all knew. And my grandkids will know more.
- [34:36]
A
Sure.
- [34:36]
B
You know, and so, I mean, I knew a kid in high school, had a car wreck, but not a. No one that got murdered, you know, and yet I. In any neighborhood in America today, it's a problem. And so I don't know how you. What has shifted is not the presence of firearms. What shifted is the code and the values around this. And I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense. It's not logical that we did that and didn't involve that. Why? No one told us. No one sat down and said, okay, these are the rules and you get kicked out of the club. No one said that. But somehow everyone knew it. It was very weird.
- [35:15]
A
I do think it's probably been a slow burn that many of us didn't notice because of how long it took to get to this point. And now I told you, my kids are ages 23 to 19 and they don't know a world without social media. Yeah, they don't know a world without the Internet. And to me, that was the term even in broadcasting. I remember as a young sportscaster where we didn't have the Internet and you had to if you wanted to get the stats, you're in the newspaper, Cubs Cardinals game. You were looking at little box. Like there was an innocence to that, too.
- [35:47]
B
That's why they called them box scores. In the newspaper in a little box.
- [35:50]
A
You had to have a newspaper if you wanted to see how your team did. Right.
- [35:52]
B
And now you say, what's a newspaper?
- [35:55]
A
They don't know. So I feel like that, I mean, sadly, was a turning point. And, hey, look, we exist. You became Dave Ramsey to the level you are thanks to technology. Right? So it's good and bad. There's pros and cons to all of it. It's necessary. But I do wonder sometimes, and I like, how do we get back to where people don't resort to crazy things to resolve really simple issues? I don't know if that ship has sailed.
- [36:25]
B
No, it has not sailed. If people decide that they're going to value Human life again as a thing. Then the sites and the stuff on the Internet becomes like the seedy part of town. You know, where the strip clubs are and the stuff goes on. And you weren't to go to that end of town, even if you weren't some kind of church person. It's just like, your mama wouldn't put up with you going over there. It was all that, you know, it's like there'd be consequences, you know, and so in a sense, that's what's happened, is the seedy part of town is now in everyone's hand.
- [37:04]
A
Yeah, Right there.
- [37:06]
B
And it's resetting them.
- [37:08]
A
So it brings me back to the faith topic, too. You said you were 24 when you found God, met him, met Jesus in your mind, of course, and spiritually. And I do think before I go back to you personally, that's, to me, why I have hope right now is that I do feel like, unfortunately, with crazy current events, that there is a revival. I have never had more strangers come up to me in airports and ask to pray with me. It's incredible. Blessings from tragedies for sure. But to me, that's the only way we get back to what you just said of valuing humanity.
- [37:48]
B
The revival is people are waking up and to the power of Jesus as your savior, Jesus as your Lord. But there's a whole bunch of them also that have just been silenced by the cancel culture. And one of the things that this current time is is that they're no longer going to be silenced. There are people saying, I will not be quiet. Now. The impact of me being quiet about this is not okay. And we've always been loud about it, but. But we weren't before we went broke. And so when we started over, we were like, okay, God, this is yours. How do you want to run it? And he said, love people. Well, you don't have to beat them up with a Bible. But we're going to tell them where we learned this stuff and who we are and why we make decisions the way we make them. Well, I don't agree with that. That's okay. You're allowed to not agree with it. We're going to not do business with you. I understand. That's okay. You don't have to. It's a free country. You don't have to do business with me. If you don't like it, it's perfectly okay with me. Because I am not scared of you. I am scared of not serving him. That one scares me. And I'm not In a. Not in a terrified way, but I. I know who my boss is. And it's not a poll and it's not likes and it's not the people in the comments section. God, for sure. Comment section.
- [39:12]
A
The. The fear is real, though. And I. Since my cancellation and rebirth, I've been cancelled so many times now I can't even count. It's like a badge of honor at this point because I realized that, gosh, somehow I still woke up the next morning, still there. And then you find strength in that every single day.
- [39:31]
B
It's like, oh, he didn't have the power you thought you had. Who knew?
- [39:34]
A
But I also gave him that power for a long time.
- [39:37]
B
That's exactly right. That's why if you shift outside what you believe to be true, to keep someone happy, then you know you've handed over your power. That's exactly what happens. And it's like a friend of mine says, he said, you know, if you try to please the masses, you're going to find out the M is silent.
- [39:57]
A
My goodness. Yes, I love that. I love that one. And I will credit you when I use it. So true. But as I've kind of gone through my cancellation journey and coming back and letting go, the key was to let. To be okay. Being disliked and that hurt as a pleaser, a good kid, trying to make sure. And then subjectively, we're.
- [40:20]
B
What kind of human being does. I mean, you'd have to be like, psychotic if you loved being people hating you. I mean, that'd be weird, right?
- [40:26]
A
No, you're right. You're right. But I think sometimes, and especially I think a lot of young women take it to another level where it's like, no, no, no, it's okay. Once I let go of that, my goodness, what a different world. It's a different life. But I have tried to be empathetic, sympathetic to people who have not felt comfortable speaking up to this point. Now I'm not as empathetic and sympathetic because I'm like, do you see what.
- [40:48]
B
Happens when you don't speak up?
- [40:49]
A
When we stay silent? It is actually so much bigger than what happens in our lives as we try to remind people. And they're going to say, oh, it's easy for you. You're successful now. It's easy for you. Look at you. I mean, Empire, you are the. It's never easy when you start, but then I believe it gets easier. What advice can you give to people who are. Who are still trying to muster up that strength because they've Seen people like me get completely canceled and not have a job and start over, and they feel I have a family I can't afford. Those are real fears.
- [41:25]
B
Yeah, I think what you said is, what we've held on to is you don't die from it. It's like, oh, you don't like me. Oh, that's the worst thing that happened today. Oh, you could fire me. Yeah, you could. But that's kind of thing about leaving anyway, because you're a jerk. And so, you know, I mean, it's like all of that's there, and. But then. Then what happens on the other side of it is if you do step into that, is you get the square shoulders and the dignity that Sage has. And so, I mean, you and I met this morning, but I've watched what has happened to you, and I've watched the way you've reacted. I've watched the way you've handled yourself. It comes across our feed, it comes across our desk, all those kinds of things, and it's pretty stinking impressive who you have become through this. And in a sense, you become a lot more well known. Really? A lot more people know who you are than when you were just a ESPN girl. I mean, come on, seriously. And they may recognize your face or whatever from those days, but, you know, you're more known for having just been kind but firm. And this is who I am. And I will not be silenced. And you're not gonna. You don't get to set my values. You get to fire me, but you don't get to do that. And it changes the. The way you walk down the street, you know, it changes all that. And it's like when I talk to pastors, for instance, you know what? 90% of their emails from Sunday morning are negative. And so what do I learn from that? I never leave the church parking lot without sending my pastor an email.
- [43:15]
A
Really?
- [43:16]
B
Ever Before I leave the parking lot, I sent him an email. Good job. Great job. I love the two points. And, you know, every pastor has good Sundays and bad Sundays. All of us have broadcast, have good days and good day, bad days on the microphone. But there's plenty of people who have an axe to grind about nothing. And so why not, you know, but it changes how you look at that. And I. I tell our guys here, they don't do it. They don't listen to me, but I tell them, don't read those comments. I'm convinced that if you read the comments, you know, why some species eat their young. I mean, it's just they're, it's troll city and they, I, I, you know, weird thing is, is that I don't meet successful people who post in comments.
- [43:57]
A
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's so true.
- [43:59]
B
I don't. I've never written a letter to the editor that was negative in my life. It's not because I'm better. I'm just busy trying to do something rather than tear down somebody that's doing something.
- [44:11]
A
I'm so glad you said that. Yes. And there's also a part of it, it's like, okay, make sure you read your comments and receive what people are saying and feedback and be better.
- [44:20]
B
That's not feedback.
- [44:22]
A
It's not. And I don't. And I feel badly sometimes because I want to be gracious and grateful towards those people who have taken the time to say something nice or maybe how my stories helped them, whatever. But you'll never leave. It'd be a full time job. I have convinced my mother finally to stop reading the comments.
- [44:40]
B
Oh, it's horrible.
- [44:41]
A
Yeah. Because no matter how old I am, I'm still a little girl and she wants to fight.
- [44:46]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [44:46]
A
And I'm like, mom, the only dumb.
- [44:48]
B
Only thing dumber than reading them is responding to them. So it's just like, oh, gosh. No, no. It's because those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still. And these aren't people I wanted in my tribe anyway. So hit it. Hit the door. You know, it's good. Go find somebody else to bitch at. I mean, move on. And so I'm good with that. It's. And if I'm gonna, if I need customer feedback, it needs to be from a customer.
- [45:13]
A
Yes. It's so simple. It's so simple.
- [45:17]
B
You're not a customer. You're just out there in the ether somewhere. And you know, Facebook friends aren't real friends. Hello. And they don't help you change your tire two in the morning. Here's the memo. But all that stuff. But we do hold each other accountable here. I mean, if I come off the stage and Ken Coleman was on side stage watching that and he goes, if you'd have held that thing two more beats, you'd have owned them. You got in a hurry. And he'll call me on stuff like that. I call him on stuff on the microphone, you know, and I'll be watching the show he's doing. I'm like, yeah, that was really good. And you got all caught up in the sound of your own voice and you should let the person you were interviewing talk and you know, we'll hold it. But that's somebody that loves you.
- [46:01]
A
Yes.
- [46:02]
B
And is trying to help. And that's different than all this other junk that's out there. And another friend of mine, he says, you know, you can't use critics math. One positive comment multiplied or one negative comment multiplied by 1000 positive comments equals zero. That's what most people do. And so it's like, no, I mean, I run into people wherever I am. And these days with U2 and podcast, it's like the valet and the waiter and the. I mean, we're in Croatia and a guy runs out of a coffee shop who's 19 years old. You're the guy on YouTube. You know, it's like, that's so, that's so fun because they're all young and I mean I started in talk radio, which the. That was a Rush Limb ball listener, that's 54 year old white male, you know, and that was it. And so to have all these youngsters showing up from the YouTube clips and our social media is so prevalent too now that they catch me even on God help me TikTok.
- [47:00]
A
So you're saying you don't have that TikTok app on your phone?
- [47:03]
B
I don't have anything on my phone, thank you. I don't look at anything, I don't get on Facebook. I'm not mad about it. I'm just busy. I got other stuff. And we've got people that are really good at that inside this building. And obviously we're world class at the whole thing. And if you're under 34, social media is your broadcast medium.
- [47:24]
A
Exactly. That's it.
- [47:25]
B
More than, more than long form anything and certainly more than anything you're going to see on a television. And so we the mind, that's the way they're consuming our inspiration and our information. And so we've got to be there in a way that's relevant and excellent. And I don't know how to do that. I know how to talk about it. And then they chop it up and make it what it's supposed to be.
- [47:47]
A
And obviously that's crucial because that's the way so many kids and many adults air quote sometimes consume everything. And we need that. So I think I've always been in awe of how you have been able to resonate though, with so many such a massively wide demographic with this topic of no longer being silent and no longer living in fear. What is your message as yes, we acknowledge your fears and there's an and.
- [48:22]
B
Well, and acknowledge that human beings like to be liked. I'm no different. I'm not like some tough guy or something. This is not wwe. This is like real life. And so the reason I don't read comments is it hurts my feelings. I'm like everybody else. But I also figured out that I have to get it in perspective and pan back and go, you don't really get a vote. And who gets a vote in your life? Who are you going to let have a vote? Who are you going to let speak in your life? It needs to be people right next to you. Sharon gets a vote.
- [48:54]
A
Sharon gets a vote.
- [48:55]
B
That's it. That's about it, really. One of the beautiful things I benefited from, and I don't recommend it, but you've benefited from it too, in a sense, from the pain, is by losing everything. I was so concerned what everybody thought. I mean, I had the Jaguar, the Rolex, all that garbage. And I was all flash, just stupid and shallow. And one of the things. But that was all for affirmation, right? And one of the things I lost when I went broke was I lost what the Bible calls fear of man. The need to please, the need to be liked by the wrong people. And so decide who you're going to make mad, because somebody's going to be mad. So let's decide. Is it going to be all these people that I never, you know, they're out there somewhere in La La land and whatever, or is it the people right there in the core of your life that actually matter who's going to be upset? And so that helps you manage your time, it helps you manage your money, it helps you manage. Pan back and keep perspective on, okay, that's nasty. And that kind of hurts my feelings. But then we really get a vote. So I need to adjust my brain on that.
- [50:08]
A
I think that's one of the blessings of speaking up, whether it was intentional or not at first. And then I'm like, oh, wait, that's not what I meant to. But, oh, gosh, the pain from realizing who your friends are and are not the people that you thought. But then what a blessing, that circle. I keep telling my kids and anyone else who will listen that it's good when that circle shrinks because you don't even have time. Usually I don't for the people I really do love, much less the ones I don't and certainly don't reciprocate it. So I just wish we could get that lesson to kids, young adults, sooner. I always say to my kids now, I actually might really like this. I made this one up. I'm like, please don't waste my pain.
- [50:53]
B
Oh, I love it.
- [50:54]
A
Just take it. And as a parent, that's what we want. We all want our kids to be better than us and realize things sooner and not go through. They have to go through some things, right? Absolutely. I'm not gonna save your butt on that one. You did that fix it. And I wish I had asked these questions. I wish I had not lived in fear. I wish I hadn't cared for so long about what this, this, this person thought. And then certainly the Internet, oh my gosh, don't waste it.
- [51:20]
B
Well, and you know, I've got grandkids now and I'm looking and looking over the shoulder of their parents, my kids and going, you understand that if they're looking at likes and they're. You're allowing a 12 year old girl to text and you're allowing them access to the Internet that you're allowing the Internet to have access to them. You understand that you're rewiring their brain on what's important and who gets a vote. And, and they are. There's so many teenagers right now that are really struggling because they want to be liked by people who will never like them on the Internet. I mean there's nothing meaner than a 13 year old little girl to another 13 year old girl.
- [52:07]
A
So true.
- [52:07]
B
I mean, and so, and you allow them access to do that unfettered with no parental perspective to allow them to mature and it's out of control and it's probably where a lot of this anxiety and mental health issues are coming from.
- [52:26]
A
So what do you advise your kids?
- [52:28]
B
I would be fine if none of them had a screen. And to this date no one does. They don't need a screen.
- [52:35]
A
What are the grandkids ages? Grandkids ages?
- [52:38]
B
Grandkids are 12 and down.
- [52:40]
A
12 and down.
- [52:40]
B
Yeah, but I mean the number of 10 year old little girls that spend all day long doom scrolling. And so my grandkids are like freaks because they don't get to do that. Everybody, not everybody, because you don't. And so you know, but Papa Dave doesn't get to say that out loud in front of them. But I can whisper that or I can read articles and send it to the parents and let them make their decisions based on that. And I might have been accused of.
- [53:08]
A
Doing that a couple of times along the way. Yeah, like, I mean I do feel like grandparents get passes though and my parents can Say things to my kids. It just hits different than if I say it, too. There's that pleasing part of them, especially for grandparents, because we're just annoying, right?
- [53:29]
B
Yeah. I'm probably the. I'm not the. You get to do anything, grandpa. I'm the opposite end. And so I want to teach you life lessons. When you're hanging out with me, I want you to be a little better person, a little better human. Not trying to raise happy children. I want children who become happy adults.
- [53:49]
A
There's such a huge difference. I do feel like the pandemic was the turning point. I remember feeling like a pretty bad moment during that time. I literally just gotten divorced. Pandemic hit, lived in the Northeast, shut down. Kids couldn't go to school. Kids couldn't play sports. It's 10 degrees. And the only access I remember they were, you know, 17, 15, 13. The only access they had to the outside world was that. And I remember struggling with it. But then I still was essential personnel, allegedly, to talk about football. Right. But had to go. Still make up sports stories to talk about. Even though there were no sports. I had to go to work every day, and it was like, what do I do? They're on these tablets because they have to be to go to school. Zoom, you know, what a terrible way to teach. And we continue to pay, really. There's consequences from that still today.
- [54:44]
B
Agreed.
- [54:45]
A
But I remember going, what do I do? This is the only way they see their friends. How do we handle this? And I don't know that as a society, actually, I know as a society that we've never recovered. I don't know if and when we ever will fully because of what was lost during those years from an educational standpoint. And then what they took from our kids with this as parents. That's one of the reasons why parents say, well, everybody here take it. Everybody else, you don't want to be the only kid. How do we stay strong? And I feel like I'm okay now. Mine are older, but for those with younger kids who feel like they have to give their kid that tablet, which we know leads to so much worse.
- [55:26]
B
Yeah. There's so much more negative than positive that comes from that. I don't know. I mean, for me, that was a snapshot. And, yeah, okay, they had tablets, and now that's over. And now you don't. You know, we're going back to this instead of just saying, oh, that means for the rest of your life, you're going to be sucked into the. Have this thing that's sucking your face dry all the time. This is crazy. But we have to set an example too. I mean, we have to come home and throw the phone in a basket and leave it and not be answering emails while their four year old grandson's trying to talk to me because he's telling me, okay, what's important me or that. Oh, that's really important because Papa Dave's paying more attention to that than he is me. And so I got to, I got to be disciplined and think about that because what message am I setting?
- [56:19]
A
Yeah.
- [56:20]
B
And so, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that happened during COVID that will never, that people will never allow again. Oh, yeah, I hope. I was pretty distressed about us allowing some of the stuff then in the middle of it. But I, you know, I'm afraid what would happen if somebody tried to do that again to our society.
- [56:44]
A
Oh, I have more faith than ever in America in that aspect where, oh, no, we trusted and look where it got us.
- [56:55]
B
Yeah, you work for the health department. You don't get a vote.
- [56:59]
A
Yeah, no, sorry, no, it's over. But that's also the scary part because we need doctors. We need people and those positions in the government that we can actually trust. And so, yeah, now I think I almost, I don't want it to happen, of course, but now I'm like, oh, try me.
- [57:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you learn to question and you can learn from experts, but we can also. If it's not okay that I question it, then we have a problem with our relationship because that's not okay. I mean, you know something as simple as hiring a lawyer, if the lawyer starts telling me what to do, I'm like, you're confused. I'm paying you. You're here to teach me about the situation with this legal situation. And then I will make the decision based on your input. But you're not going to tell me you're confused. I'm the one writing the check. Same with a doctor. I'm like, okay, tell me what you're talking about here. I sound like Charlie Brown's teacher. What are you really saying and what's going on with this? And then I'll make the decision. You know, it's not, well, my doctor told me or my financial guy told me or anytime someone's telling you something, you probably, instead of teaching you something, you probably ought to step back about two steps.
- [58:12]
A
You have never been afraid, though, to say what you feel, even during the scary times, even when it comes to specifics about what you believe politically why?
- [58:27]
B
Again, I guess it goes back to what we were discussing earlier. I'm not afraid of. If I can say something and it's helpful to the individual and it's helpful to the culture, then I've used this platform that God blessed me with to be a blessing. And that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be a blessing. And so I'm not saying those things 98, 99% of the time there's. Sometimes I'm on too many cups of coffee, but most of the time I'm not saying them for my benefit. Most of the time I'm saying, look, this is what I believe is good for the nation. And if you don't like it, understand, but you know, you're. And you can say, well, I don't agree with Dave about that stuff, but I'd like what he teaches over here. You can say that. I say that about people all the time. I don't have to throw every baby out with a bath water. I can just go, you know that guy, I disagree with the way he thinks about that stuff. Buddy's a great comedian or whatever. He's good at his craft. And I got lots of people that I'm friendly with. I don't know if I call them friends, but I'm friendly with them that vote wrong. And so vote wrong.
- [59:43]
A
What exactly do you mean by vote wrong? Dave Ramsey.
- [59:48]
B
Isn't that fun? I mean, we got into all that stuff. I interviewed President Trump before the election and we offered to Vice President Harris to do the same thing, and her team didn't feel like it was beneficial and his did. And so we flew up and did an interview. It was 40 minutes or something. It was not life changing for him for sure. It was kind of cool for me because I'd never done that. But I don't do interviews. I don't interview people in general, but I certainly don't interview presidents very often. So very interesting. And, you know, I came away from that personal interaction. I've been around him a couple times. But the way he handled himself through that whole thing with interacting with me, more impressed, not less impressed, but, boy, did people get upset about me doing that. I'm like, hey, I offered to both. And I really was intrigued. I don't agree with. I mean, I agree with him more politically, sure. But I certainly don't agree with everything he does. And I certainly don't agree with how he does everything. That for sure. But I kind of like the guy.
- [60:49]
A
It's hard not to like in person.
- [60:51]
B
He's very charming and very charismatic and. And I seldom find people on either side of the aisle that reach that point that aren't.
- [61:00]
A
Yes.
- [61:02]
B
Like I've had several friends that have spent time with Bill Clinton. They say he's absolutely owns a room.
- [61:06]
A
That's what I've heard when he walks in.
- [61:07]
B
And I don't doubt that. I believe that to be true. And I've got other friends that are, you know, along that elk. And so I was really did want to interview her because I. I'm pretty sure that all those edits of Fox News of her were not exactly accurate. I'm pretty sure. And I mean. And they're trying to make her look like a clown.
- [61:30]
A
Sure.
- [61:31]
B
And so I don't think you get to be vice president of the United States and be a complete clown. I just don't think that. I don't believe that. So I really wanted to kind find out who she really was. It didn't work out, but I really was curious.
- [61:45]
A
I think so many people were. And she said no to you? She said no to Dr. Phil. He told me that he tried. There were 23 different email communications separately.
- [61:55]
B
Yeah, we talked to them up there too. Yeah, we talked to him. Yeah.
- [61:59]
A
Yeah. Joe Rogan obviously famously turning that down. But hey, you did your job as a journalist, didn't you? You tried, you tried to keep it fair and balanced.
- [62:08]
B
I'm not really a journalist.
- [62:09]
A
I know. I mean, I'm just dating in that moment though, when you're running a business.
- [62:14]
B
Honestly, I didn't do it just to be up here fair and balanced. I did it because I really was curious.
- [62:18]
A
Yeah. And you have the opportunity to do it, which many people.
- [62:20]
B
I really wanted to talk to her. I mean, I was very curious and I wasn't trying to do a hit job on it. I don't do that. I believe that I don't do that. And so I would have let her talk and, you know, make her case about the things that we disagree with and we can have a fun discussion about it. I think I've had some great discussions on my back porch with people I greatly disagree with. A lot of fun stuff.
- [62:42]
A
Well, that's. And when you're a normal human being can have a conversation and then not, you know, get up and run away or call people names because you think differently. It can be so productive. And for me, I like it because it opens my mind. It isn't. We all have an opinion.
- [62:56]
B
You know, I'll give you an example. We Were, remember all the stuff that were in George Floyd, all the racial stuff. And so I grew up in the Deep south in the 60s, and so I grew up in a racial environment, a racist environment is what I should say. And then as I grew up, and certainly as I became a person of faith, I dealt with that and went, that's just ignorance. And I put it all in my early 20s, put that aside really quickly. And so I don't have any issue with that stuff at all. But it's funny, during that time, I'm like the antithesis. I'm the, I'm the flashpoint because I'm a Southern, white, wealthy male. It's like you are the, you are the personification of evil in the middle of that discussion. Right. Even before you open your mouth and so. Or even before someone finds out who you actually are. But I get, you know, like, I would say we had a African American guy, it was one of our personalities at the time, Anthony o'. Neill, and we're talking about on the air. And he was with me. One morning I was busting up here to get to the airport and I got pulled over in small town Tennessee by the big belly sheriff. I mean, like a stereotype now. So I got this African American guy in the back, white guy over here. Me, I'm driving like 80 miles an hour in a 30 or something. It's 2 o' clock in the morning. I'm trying to get the airport.
- [64:14]
A
Oh my goodness.
- [64:14]
B
Yeah, I'm just busting it. I didn't care. And so he's like, what you doing, boy? And I'm like, whatever. And I'm like. And he's like, kind of went a little fast. Yeah. And he goes, I'm going to give you a big ticket. And I'm like, come on, man, I'm just trying to get to the airport or whatever. I said, you know, here's my gun, permit, all this, you know, whatever. He's like, no, man. Then he starts cussing me and he gives me a lesson and then he hands me a ticket and we're driving away. And the African American guy, we're driving away, he goes, I didn't know that happened to white people. Oh my gosh.
- [64:43]
A
Oh my goodness, it was so great.
- [64:47]
B
And then the other thing that happened was I kept telling everybody, I'm a redneck, I'm a redneck, hillbilly redneck, kill Billy. Well, he thought growing up in his culture, in the portion of the culture he grew up in, that that meant racist, that redneck Was that. That means. The word means racist. And to me, it's like, no, it's a country boy. It has nothing to do with racism. It's just a country boy. It's just a person that thinks, like, you grew up on the farm and you got a pickup truck and cowboy boots and a gun and whatever, all that. But it has nothing to do with racist. But he's like, I got. My friends call me this guy saying you're on the air saying you're a redneck and I work for you. He goes, they don't understand. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I had no idea. But it's learning. You know, all this stuff is based in ignorance.
- [65:33]
A
Yes.
- [65:33]
B
You know, it's not based in knowledge. And once you get the knowledge, you're like, oh, that's just. That's so ridiculous. It's humorous.
- [65:40]
A
Well, because sometimes if you don't laugh, you cry about it. It is crazy. But I always try to remind you people, you know, again, my kids, those people, they're people, I guess, that everyone has an opinion, and their opinions are based usually on their experiences. So let's lead with a little more kindness, because you might disagree and you might think they're nuts for that opinion, but you don't know what they've been through. You don't know their story.
- [66:04]
B
It's hard to hate people you spend time with, though.
- [66:07]
A
It is. Well, when you. But you got to make the effort.
- [66:09]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [66:10]
A
And a lot of times that's. That's not going to happen.
- [66:12]
B
Yeah.
- [66:13]
A
You. I asked about the. I mean, I'm glad you told me the Kamala story as well, because, you know, when you run such a massive business company, you're going to have people who aren't going to agree with what the leadership says, what the boss says, what the messaging is all the time. But I hope everybody knows. Right. And I guess that ship has sailed now. But, yes, you interviewed Donald Trump before the election, but you tried to interview his opponent as well and to be representative of your entire company. Because although I'm sure many believe what you believe, there's probably many who don't also. And I think it's a lost opportunity. So it's okay. It's over with. But there's many elections to come still.
- [66:59]
B
You know, it's good for them because they came in, several of them come in and sit in the leader's office and go, I'm struggling with Dave doing this. This is hard for me.
- [67:06]
A
That Created conversation.
- [67:08]
B
Because I love Dave, and I want to be behind everything here. I want to be loyal. But I'm really struggling with this because I'm not aligned, you know? And I'm like, I understand. And you know what? You're allowed to work here. Hello. It's okay. Especially if you have the moxie to come in and sit down, tell somebody that.
- [67:27]
A
That's a big deal.
- [67:28]
B
That's even cool. That's even cooler. And nobody got punished for that. You know, nobody got, oh, you're not one of us. You know, that's kind of dumb.
- [67:37]
A
But when you look at where corporate America as a whole is today. Oh, I mean, it's heartbreaking is what it is to me.
- [67:44]
B
Yeah.
- [67:44]
A
Where they only choose. Not all, but most choose to align with one side and one side only. And then that's where the cancel culture and everything else comes in. It isn't just on social media. It is high. It is through your corporations and the boards. How does that get turned around? I mean, how do we begin to heal there? Where true leaders are going to do what you did and sure, give your opinion, but make sure everybody feels welcomed.
- [68:13]
B
Yeah. Well, and again, I think it's. How are we having the discussion? It's not as much as are we allowed to have the discussion. And so, like, I've seen people come out and get fired recently because they said inappropriate things. It wasn't because they disagreed. It wasn't because they had a different viewpoint. It's because they went cuckoo with their mouth. And. Yeah, that'll get you fired. That'll get you fired here.
- [68:44]
A
Yes.
- [68:44]
B
I mean, if you came out and said, well, you know, and post it on your social media that, you know, Dave Ramsey. I did fire somebody during COVID I had one wife that went on social media and said, dave Ramsey's trying to kill his employees. And I'm like, your husband works here, and you really believe that? And yet he is in the building. I mean, you really think he's going to die, and yet y' all are so dumb. He's here. That's pretty dumb. So, yeah, number one, you trash the guy that feeds your family on the air in public without saying anything to us directly. Number two, you're so dumb, you think you're going to die and you came anyway. Those are two reasons to not work here anymore.
- [69:24]
A
That doesn't even add up.
- [69:26]
B
But that's different than, hey, Dave, I'm really struggling with your COVID policy bringing everybody back to work in the building, even though the governor said it's okay in the state of Tennessee, but it's real early in this thing and I'm really scared. And we did have a lot of those discussions, and that's a fair disagreement.
- [69:47]
A
It is. I do feel like the tides are turning a little bit. And when you see the number of people who have been fired for, you know, laughing at the fact that Charlie Kirk was murdered.
- [69:57]
B
Yeah. And you should be teachers. And I don't care if you laughed at George Floyd getting murdered. You should be fired.
- [70:04]
A
Correct.
- [70:04]
B
I mean, that's just dumb. You shouldn't hire dumb people and you shouldn't keep them. That's just people that don't know how to control their emotions in their mouth. They're not good team members. They need to go somewhere else. And so, yeah, I would fire you over either one of those.
- [70:19]
A
I know you have a lot of friends who run companies and do a lot of big things as well. Do you have conversations with those men and women who are trying to toe that line as well and not tick off one side, but be representative of everybody?
- [70:34]
B
Yeah, occasionally. I mean, just some guys hanging out or guys and gals, leaders hanging out. I do a lot of leadership conference speaking and that kind of thing. And then we coach about 10,000 small businesses with our entree leadership. And, you know, during COVID as an example, I was on stage in front of those guys going, hey, remember, you own your business. No one else owns it. It's got your name on the outside of it. So you get to decide. Well, you can't do. You know, you can't. Yeah, you can. You own it. And so what I was helping there was just install some backbones.
- [71:09]
A
Yes, yes. Gosh, sometimes to me, though, it's still shocking, again, coming from my background and military men and like, you have a backbone or you don't survive.
- [71:19]
B
Right.
- [71:19]
A
Where do the backbones go? Where. Where did they.
- [71:22]
B
You can't fire an employee for that. Oh, yeah, you can. It's a right to work state, and I mean, it's an employment at will state. And that means you're employed at my will. You know, I don't take advantage of that. I'm not mean about it. And we don't randomly, you know, rashly with anger or anything like that. But your legal rights are pretty limited.
- [71:43]
A
One of the things I absolutely love is that in addition to what you've done for millions of people and will continue to do long after you're gone and I'm gone is to, yes, empower people financially. And what has come with that, the fact that people come to you and to your many employees, especially your on air talent, for advice on things that actually are more important.
- [72:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [72:09]
A
I mean, that's what's so special. That's what's so unique.
- [72:14]
B
And that's the dirty little secret of the whole money thing.
- [72:18]
A
Yeah.
- [72:18]
B
The money thing is just a trick to get to talk about Jesus and to get to talk about character and to get to talk about dignity and to get to talk about locus of control. And, you know, you are in charge of your destiny. No one else is. And that's not really a money thing. There's a money thing in that, though. If I teach people to get control of their money, they oftentimes lose weight, they oftentimes see a therapist and save their marriage because they suddenly realize they're in control of about 85 or 90% of what happens in their life. And we've just been taught that the government's going to take care of it or corporate America is going to take care of it. And they're not. They're incompetent to take care of my life. And so I'm not. You don't get to take care of my life. I'm not going to give you that option. You're really bad at it. Just go to the dmv. I just know you're bad at this. I do not want you telling me what to do. And so just installing that through the money message or through the front row seat with Ken Coleman or through the Dr. John DeLoney show on relationships and psychology and all the wacky calls he gets and so all that stuff. But you're still installing this thing of, you're a king's kid, you're God's child, now act like it.
- [73:35]
A
Do you still get emotional and just touched or, you know, take stories home? I mean, I know for a fact that you do, because I've seen it. But I think people might believe. Well, gosh, he's been doing this for so long and he's heard everything.
- [73:49]
B
I cried on Applebee's commercial. What are you talking about?
- [73:53]
A
Okay, now we need you to go back to that therapist if that's the case.
- [73:57]
B
No, I mean, I. We were. My wife and I were watching the documentary on Billy Graham that's on Apple TV right now. And I've got tears just running down my face. And she's like, you are such a wuss. She's making fun of me. I'm like, this is the best thing I have seen. And I don't Know when we don't watch much TV and turn it on, but somebody told us to turn that on and watch it. And she said, let's go watch this other thing. I'm like, no, I'm not going to watch anything after that. I'm not running that out. You know, it'd be a week. Will turn on the other thing maybe. But no. And it's just. Yeah. I. I get emotional about things where people have helped people.
- [74:40]
A
Yes.
- [74:40]
B
And where they're teaching them to be King's kids. And in the process, and with him in that thing, he was just. He couldn't open his mouth without saying, you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son for you, Jesus Christ, you need to come forward and raise your hand and accept Jesus. And it was just. He would be on Larry King, he'd be on everything. And he didn't really even have a good conversation with people because all he would do is just say that over and over and over and over again. It was so fabulous. So anointed. It was pretty cool.
- [75:12]
A
So I need to add that to my list.
- [75:14]
B
Yeah, you gotta watch it. Yeah, for sure.
- [75:16]
A
Yeah. I think that's when I've gotten emotional listening to your callers. And then the gifts that you're giving them, like you said, are so much beyond finances. I think, obviously, that's probably the initial attraction to come and pay attention. And then people get so much more. I think back to when you and Sharon were, you know, at your low point. And could you imagine this? Like, it's one thing to help people with their finances. It's incredible.
- [75:47]
B
Yeah. I mean, God's blessed me. If I wasn't me, I'd want to be me. I'm having a blast. This is just so fun. And it is. Hope is our product. That's the product we sell, is hope through all those different venues, through all those different platforms, through all the different messaging, whether it's Coleman or Rachel or Jade, any of them, it's your job. When you turn on a microphone, walk on a stage, write a book. Your job is to lift, inspire, educate all to give hope. And hope does not come from someone else doing it for you.
- [76:24]
A
What do you want your employees, every day, going out in the world when they leave here? This is a, by the way, incredibly beautiful, perfect campus. It's a campus.
- [76:35]
B
It is.
- [76:35]
A
And then they leave, and then they go home and they have their problems and they have their lives. And they're representing Ramsey, though, aren't they?
- [76:43]
B
We tell Them that. We tell them that in onboarding you have a personal brand. And so once you tell people you work here and then you don't tip the valet, that ain't cool. Once you tell people you work here and then you go lease your car at the local dealership, they're gonna tell everybody that walks in there that Dave Ramsey's programmer leased a car here last week, and they don't care what your name is. They're getting ready to use you to push something that's against this place. So you got to be careful. You know, we're not a cult. We regularly ask people to leave. So. Cults don't do that. But the. But the. You know, you represent now, and in church, we call it your witness.
- [77:24]
A
Yeah.
- [77:25]
B
You know, and so if you run around telling people you're a Christian, you ought to act a certain way. Hello. On every day of the week, not just Sunday. And so, yeah, I mean, there are certain things that go with that, that people expect. Whether they understand it or not, or whether they are actually Bible students or not doesn't matter. They know that person was kind. They know that person was mistreated in that situation and still held their tongue. They know that person stood up for themselves and was bold, but did it appropriately. They know they're watching. They're watching. And in church, we call that your witness, and around here, we call it your personal brand. And so, yeah, people are. They're watching how you treat your kids. They're watching how you treat your wife and husband. They're watching. And. And it reflects on this place. And. And it's a problem, because what we sell here is hope. But the way we do it is we are a trust brand. And if you do something that damages the trust of this place with the people out there, I'm going to have a problem with that because you've lost my ability to speak to that person with credibility because of your behavior. And that's an issue. And we talk about that too much around here. Way too much.
- [78:39]
A
How many total employees?
- [78:40]
B
1,100. Yeah.
- [78:41]
A
Okay. So probably not too much. It probably needs to. There's a reason why.
- [78:44]
B
Well, there's a new guy, and there's an old guy that forgot so.
- [78:47]
A
Exactly.
- [78:48]
B
Both of them want to hear it. Exactly.
- [78:49]
A
You know, I just. I'm fascinated and have been for many, many years, because you could have hung it up a long time and you don't need any more money. It's not for the fame. You've been there, done that, and continued to grow in those ways, what is it that keeps you so. I feel the excitement.
- [79:05]
B
Yeah.
- [79:06]
A
What keeps you so excited?
- [79:09]
B
Well, I mean, again, it sounds like we're being overly religious or something, but the Bible just talks about the joy of serving. And there's more joy in giving than in receiving. There's more joy in serving. And the definition of serving is finding something where you're helping other people and continue to do it. It is exciting and it doesn't get old. I mean, what kind of weirdo would have a kid walk up to me at the front desk of the airport yesterday and she just went red, she just. You're Dave Ramsey and she's. Thank you so much. I took your stuff in high school and my husband and I just got married and we're debt free starting out our lives and we're never going to borrow money. Thank you so much. Who would not like that? I mean, you'd have to be weird. I mean, who wants to retire from that? Nobody. It's awesome. And so it's so fulfilling, you know, and real and so. Yeah. And so. No, I don't plan to retire. I'm backing off of the operations here because of succession planning. But as far as being on the air and stirring up trouble, that's a full time job.
- [80:19]
A
Oh, please. We need you to keep stirring that pot. When you think back to that little country boy in Tennessee, the redneck, I mean, that's what we proudly. Right. And I love it. That's why I'm so comfortable in Tennessee. Everybody, don't start. People are gonna. Don't start with me when I say that comment. What would you tell that little boy?
- [80:45]
B
I always was the little business nerd. I was cutting 27 yards when I was 12 years old, so hard work was not an option growing up. I already mentioned that. But I liked business and I always thought I'll be successful, I'll work hard enough and I'll figure it out and I'll be successful. He believed he could do it. What he didn't know is how hard it was going to be, how much the things we've talked about in the time together, just how much disappointment there would be, betrayal there would be. I didn't know that. I didn't understand that. I didn't understand that was part of the journey. I also didn't understand like when we started getting people out of debt. That's obviously a big job, you know, everybody's in debt. Me and Jenny Craig got a big job. You know, it's like so. But so I Started hiring people to help me. But I never thought about building a big company. I just was trying to help people, and I couldn't do it by myself. And it's ended up being the. Yes, the young lady at the airport is very fulfilling, but even more fulfilling is the team members that have been here 25 years, 30 years, that have walked with us through this whole thing, that have been here 15 years, 10 years. The brilliant youngsters that are coming on board that are passionate in their crusade mentality. 24, 25 years old, and smart as a whip. Charged the gates of hell with a water pistol, too, man. I mean, they get it. And that's the great pleasure of my life. There's a richness to assembling this team and going through all the negative stuff that goes with that, but the net result is it was worth the trouble. That's what I would tell him.
- [82:30]
A
And the fact that you've done it by leading with your faith.
- [82:34]
B
I didn't have a choice. It was all there was. They took everything else.
- [82:39]
A
Okay, you can say that, but I'm going to say otherwise, because that decision at 24 obviously benefited you and your beautiful family, but this country, this world.
- [82:52]
B
Thank you.
- [82:53]
A
No, I'm grateful that you. It does. Unfortunately, at times it shouldn't, but take some courage. And you just slapped that around and said, no, we're doing it. We're doing it the right way. And it's. It's a blessing for all of us, but it's a blessing for me that you allowed me in.
- [83:08]
B
Oh, we're honored. Anytime.
- [83:10]
A
It's incredible.
- [83:11]
B
Anytime. Bring your socks back. That's great. I'm gonna give them to Sharon. She'll be happy.
- [83:14]
A
Well, next time, I'll leave a tag on.
- [83:16]
B
She's super happy that they're your. That they're from you. She's a big fan.
- [83:19]
A
What?
- [83:20]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [83:21]
A
Okay. Are we still recording? We make sure that we got that part. It means. It really means the world to me. You've helped me and many others more than you'll know. So thank you. I promise, if I see you at the airport, I'll make sure my face get really red. Do you know what you've done for me? So thank you. God bless.