How Big Pharma and Big Food Keep America Sick | Sage Steele Show | EP 69

Summary

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The Sage Steele Show | Episode 69

Title: How Big Pharma and Big Food Keep America Sick
Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Sage Steele
Guest: Kelly Means (Senior Adviser to Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the deep-rooted issues plaguing America's health care and food systems, focusing particularly on how Big Pharma and Big Food perpetuate cycles of sickness and profit. Sage Steele sits down with Kelly Means, senior adviser to Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., for an eye-opening discussion about government corruption, profit incentives, the state of U.S. public health, and recent reforms under the Trump/Kennedy administration. The conversation is personal, at times dark, but ultimately hopeful—emphasizing the potential for cultural change, policy victories, and the power of questioning established systems.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inside the White House: The New Reform Movement

(01:19–05:57)

• White House Work Ethic: Means describes the intense, around-the-clock work by some of the "most competent and high performing people ever assembled," especially since the Trump/Kennedy coalition (03:03).
• Preparation & Personnel: Years of preparation, including detailed personnel lists, underpinned the administration's rapid launch of executive actions.
• **“Personnel is policy”—reforming government agencies is central to the agenda.
• Quote:
  “I think we're in the midst of potentially one of the three most consequential presidencies in American history.”
  —Kelly Means, 03:33

2. The Depth of Systemic Corruption

(05:57–09:44)

• Entrenched Incentives: The "rot" runs deep in institutions like the Department of Health and NIH, where success is measured by profits, not better outcomes:
  “In healthcare...they do not argue around the metric of improving American health at all. It's fully about jobs, it's fully about money and it's transparent.”
  —Kelly Means, 07:07
• Structural Barriers: Means warns these systems won’t turn around in 2–4 years; massive wins help hold the reform coalition together but full change will take a decade or more.

3. America’s “Sick System”—Root Causes & History

(14:52–19:13)

• From Good Intentions to Chronic Disease: After WWII, food processing and chronic prescriptions became entrenched for profitability. Now, nearly all healthcare spending is on chronic, not acute, issues.
• Medical Culture: The medical establishment discourages nutrition discussions:
  “She said, they told her, they actually said stop being a pussy. You are not a nutritionist, you are a doctor. And we've created...That's not serious, that's not serious medicine.”
  —Kelly Means, recounting his sister’s med school experience, 16:27

4. The Role & Tactics of Lobbyists: From School Lunches to SNAP

(19:13–25:18)

• Weaponizing Policy: Large food companies and pharma lobby groups routinely manipulate guidelines for profit, sometimes by co-opting civil rights and anti-hunger messages.
• School Lunch Controversy: Attempts at meaningful reform meet entrenched opposition, with industry even fighting for processed foods in children’s meals.
• Quote:
  “She's a guest. And they have weaponized school lunches to argue, to literally lobby that we shouldn't be increasing more nutritious options for school lunches.”
  —Kelly Means, 18:53

5. Landmark Reforms: Removing Soda from SNAP and Front-of-Package Labeling

(25:15–36:14)

• SNAP Overhaul: Major states including Texas and Florida have removed soda from SNAP, despite lobbying:
  “Coke makes $4 billion a year just from taxpayer money on SNAP.”
  —Kelly Means, 25:19
• Food Dye & Ingredient Transparency: State bans on food dyes led the FDA to require proof of ingredient safety; the U.S. had 10,000 approved chemicals compared to Europe’s 300.
• Front-of-Package Labeling: Radical reform in food labeling, pushed by state action, is leading to a first-in-decades overhaul.

6. A Cultural Awakening: Shifting Power to Voters & Individuals

(36:14–42:03)

• Patient Empowerment: More patients now question prescriptions and seek root causes—this is seen as a core victory.
• Restoring Trust: The medical community, still resisting, remains entrenched in the interventionist model, making individual skepticism essential.
• Quote:
  “If you have an infection, a burst appendix...the US medical system is miraculous at acute things...But that's about 7% of health care spending.”
  —Kelly Means, 47:36

7. Challenging Medical Authority, Advocating for Common-Sense Health

(47:22–56:30)

• Advice for Patients: Means encourages seeking second opinions, getting extensive bloodwork, and focusing on functional medicine, especially for chronic conditions.
• Medical Infantilization: Both government and medical institutions have fostered dependency, shaming parents who resist medication for children or demand better food standards.

8. Equity, Race, and Policy Manipulation

(51:30–56:02)

• NAACP & Industry Lobbying: Co-opted organizations use “racial justice” arguments to fight against nutrition improvements, but support expensive pharmaceutical interventions without questioning their cost.

9. Policy vs. Culture: The Real Path Forward

(56:30–61:23)

• Affordability, Access & Culture: While cost is an issue, Means argues that cultural change, clear messaging from health leaders, and personal responsibility are key. “We've kind of infantilized people a little bit and we've kind of like hadn't given them tough love.” —Kelly Means, 58:32

10. Kids’ Health: Schools, Diet, and Fitness

(66:53–71:33)

• School Food Reform: Plans to overhaul school food, revive the Presidential Fitness test, and counter decades of lobbyist-driven nutrition guidelines.
• Ultra-Processed Food: Parents encouraged to keep it out of the home, focus on real food (protein, veggies, some grains), not banished treats but daily habits matter most.
• Quote:
  “Kids love steak. It gets them full. It's protein. They love it. They like it more than candy. It's amazing. Like steak is great. It's got a ton of nutrients.”
  —Kelly Means, 70:12

11. Personal Story: Loss, Mourning, and Motivation

(72:02–83:42)

• Means’ Mother’s Pancreatic Cancer: Her passing underscored for Means and his sister Casey the failings of the system and the importance of empowering individuals to seek root causes.
• Gratitude & Mission: The loss became a springboard for their activism and book (“Good Energy”), as well as a moving family story of grief and resilience.
• Quote:
  “She was on five medications. That's the big thing, the resonant thing for me about my mom is... at five medications, she was on less medications than the average 71 year old. And she was told she was healthy.”
  —Kelly Means, 72:13

12. Cancer: Prevention vs. Cure and the U.S. Crisis

(84:17–88:01)

• Misplaced Priorities: America spends massively on cancer treatment, but not on prevention.
• Highest Cancer Rates: The U.S., and especially Iowa, have the world's highest cancer rates, likely influenced by environmental factors—especially in agriculture.
• Farmers & Pesticides: The path forward requires reforms, not condemnation, but practical, supportive innovation for farmers.

13. Outlook: Optimism vs. Darkness

(89:01–End)

• Societal Change: Means is hopeful, arguing the broader movement—a “cultural awakening”—matters more than any single piece of policy.
• Movement’s Future: The goal is persistent, multi-year transformation, not a “flash in the pan.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is the corruption. The co option of our governmental systems are breathtaking beyond imagination...they do not argue around the metric of improving American health at all. It is fully about jobs, it's fully about money and it's transparent.”
  —Kelly Means, 07:07

• “My sister at Stanford Med School...They told her...‘stop being a pussy. You are not a nutritionist, you are a doctor.’”
  —Kelly Means, 16:30

• “Coke makes $4 billion a year just from taxpayer money on SNAP. $4 billion a year.”
  —Kelly Means, 25:19

• “It's not a talking point. This administration is trying to reclaim science. And Bobby is not telling anyone at the NIH what the answer should be. He's trying to make sure that they're not threatened over asking taboo questions.”
  —Kelly Means, 42:03

• “If there's one message I have, you know, from seeing inside the NIH, the FDA, it's that patients are on their own right now. When it comes to chronic disease, the system is not worthy of trust. It's worthy of being listened to, but it's not worthy of trust.”
  —Kelly Means, 44:44

• “Symptoms are a gift...Patients need to go on their own path to figure out what's going on at the root cause. And you're not going to get that from the traditional medical system.”
  —Kelly Means, 50:53

• “If parents just woke up and gave their kids real food, we would absolutely dramatically improve the economy, dramatically improve happiness and productivity of our citizens, and dramatically reduce the budget.”
  —Kelly Means, 61:23

• “America has the highest cancer rates of any country in the world, the United States in human history. Iowa is the highest cancer rates in the country.”
  —Kelly Means, 87:10

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Important Segment Timestamps

• White House Reform & Personnel: 01:19–05:57
• Corruption in Health & Food: 05:57–09:44
• Medical History & Chronic Disease: 14:52–19:13
• Lobbying Tactics & School Lunches: 19:13–25:18
• State Action: SNAP & Food Labeling: 25:15–36:14
• Patient Empowerment, Doctor Skepticism: 36:14–42:03
• Challenging Authority & Building Trust: 47:22–56:30
• Race, Inequality, & Food Industry Influence: 51:30–56:02
• Cultural Change vs. Policy: 56:30–61:23
• Kids’ Food, School Reform & Fitness: 66:53–71:33
• Personal Story—Mother’s Illness: 72:02–83:42
• Cancer Prevention vs. Cures: 84:17–88:01
• Movement’s Future & Hope: 89:01–End

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Episode Tone & Host-Guest Dynamic

The conversation is frank, personal, and at times blunt about the failures of public health and the medical establishment—balanced by energetic optimism for ongoing reforms and the belief in collective cultural change. Sage Steele guides the discussion with urgency and curiosity, relating as both a journalist and a parent, while Kelly Means alternates between policy expertise, data-driven argument, and deeply personal testimony.

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For Listeners: Key Takeaways

• America’s health problems are deeply entrenched in profit-driven medical and food systems.
• Lobbyists use sophisticated tactics—including co-opting trusted institutions and civil rights organizations—to maintain the status quo.
• Real change requires not just policy, but a collective “cultural awakening”—one that starts with individuals questioning, learning, and changing habits.
• Recent state-level wins (like SNAP reform and food labeling) show the power of grassroots demand and political momentum.
• Patients and parents must empower themselves: ask questions, seek root causes, and be skeptical of interventions that don’t address underlying health.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone concerned about the intersection of health, politics, and culture—or anyone ready to think differently about how America might "get healthy again."

Transcript

[A]

I think one of the biggest turning points in last year's presidential campaign was actually last August 2024 on that stage in Phoenix, when Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Abandoned, suspended his own presidential campaign to join forces with Donald Trump. And from that moment on, it really was on. It was a huge shift by RFK Jr. S side. That entire time was Kelly Means, who is now Secretary Kennedy's senior adviser. And he is covering so many things, a broad range of things throughout the medical industry, of course, the pharmaceutical industry, F.D. you name it. In particular though, right now, the food industry. He believes everything starts there in educating our youth from school age on now that America is officially one of the unhealthiest countries on the planet. What he revealed in this interview with me was shocking. It was dark, it was kind of scary. The statistics do not lie. But he also carries so much optimism with him because he knows that he, RFK Jr. They have the support of Donald Trump to continue to try their best to make America healthy again. Kelly Means, an awesome, fascinating episode of the Sage Steel show right now.

[B]

Enjoy. Hallie Means just walked over from the White House, right?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I forgot how close I am. We're like two blocks away.

[C]

10 minute walk.

[B]

That's amazing. You gotta get your steps in. If anybody needs to get their steps in to, you know, back up all the instructions, then yes, that's you. Is that where you spe? How much of your time do you spend there now?

[C]

I got a call from Secretary Kennedy shortly after he was sworn in and was asked to be an SGE. So this is like what Elon did you get? 130 days. And I've been here 130 days straight. 20 hours, practically a day at the White House. It's been intense.

[B]

20 hours a day.

[C]

Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but it's a. Feels like it's full on. And I will say, I mean it is wild. At 2am People are walking around the White House. There's been many, many late nights and this place is packed with people working their butts off.

[B]

What does that say?

[C]

I think it says according to people that are at the White House from administration, Administration, very different than the previous administration. But it's pretty extraordinary. I mean, my first week, I mean, you had Elon. I know lots happened with that. But literally just running around every day meeting to meeting, cranking. You have, you know, whatever you think of these people, you know, by many measures the world's most competent and high performing people, just cranking the CEOs and nonprofit leaders and advocates just rolling through world leaders, rolling through the West Wing. And then, you know, I've done startups. I've seen a lot in government. This is the highest octane group of people I has ever been assembled. It's pretty inspiring. And, yeah, there are people walking the halls of the White House at 2am cranking on big issues.

[B]

It is so cool. It is inspiring even from the outside. So I can't imagine what it feels like to be actually witnessing this every single day. You know, I guess when he won the election and then leading up to the inauguration, you're like, okay, they're working hard. We know they're getting everything ready to go and pull the trigger as soon as he's in office. This has been going on long before he won that election. This. It feels like. You tell me this has been going on since he lost the election in 2020.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely drunk the Kool Aid. I think we're in the midst of potentially one of the three most consequential presidencies in American history. I think this dynamic where he was able to huddle and prepare for four years is a singular historical moment. He got all of his people together. And I saw working with. With Bobby Kennedy during the campaign and kind of seeing the. The infrastructure they built, they've been preparing for this moment. They, you know, personnel as policy, they are taking that very, very seriously. The personnel department is really, in some ways, the most powerful department in the White House right now. They have a really say on everything, and I think that's extremely important. They spent years working on personnel lists going down the administration, because, I mean, I think that's the thesis of President Trump's campaign and Bobby Kennedy's message, which is there's a real rot in our institutions. The Education Department is not incentivized for more educated kids. The Health Department is not incentivized for healthier Americans. The military apparatus is not incentivized, I think, for national security at this point. It's incentivized for other things. So they worked on personnel and had thousands and thousands of pages of plans. So you've seen that with just this flurry of executive orders. I think the big beautiful bill was one of the biggest legislative accomplishments in modern American history. And I think it's an argument, I think even people on the left would agree with this. There's been more action in the first 150 days than any administration in our lifetime.

[B]

It's incredible. Yeah, there's a lot of preparation, and I really loved. One of the things President Trump said leading up to the election, I believe it was on Joe Rogan's podcast when, you know, talking about what he learned from that first term. And he was so candid and open and kind of vulnerable about it, where he said one of his biggest mistakes was hanging on to some of the wrong people for too long. Loyalty, which is admirable, actually. But then to know when to say, okay, enough is enough. The importance of having the right people around you, he knew that as a businessman, but this was completely different. And so when you talk about the personnel and the type of people that he has in there now, What a difference, 100%. So what is that process like though? Because you still have to make the adjustment. You still have to get them in there. You are retraining a lot of people and there is no time to rest. So when you have all these people coming in and new and retrain, is it, is it chaos? Organized chaos?

[C]

It's complete and utter chaos.

[D]

And this is my take on it. And from the, from the health side and this transformation we're trying to drive in healthcare, I don't know if other people in the administration agree with this, but I think we're laying the baseline and laying the argument for a ten year journey. All of these initiatives President Trump's talking about are 10 years. We're not going to root out the deep state in the next two years fully. We're not going to transform the budget deficit in the next two years. We're not going to, it looks like.

[C]

Are actually pushing hard on the immigration.

[D]

But these issues and health care, I mean, we have a health care system and this is, I think, a central tenet that resonated with voters that's predicated, makes money when people are sick. We clearly have something going on with our food. When you look at rates of 38% of teens having prediabetes. And I think there's so much passion from voters and so much passion behind President Trump and I think the Twitter kind of maga maha base just pushing for action. I think that's very important. That's an asset to the movement. But something Secretary Kennedy and I talk a lot about is this is so deep and this is my big message from seeing inside. It is the corruption. The co option of our governmental systems are breathtaking beyond imagination. There are deeply perverse incentives and a structure where, you know, in healthcare, you know, the interest groups that come, they're not even pretending. They do not argue when they're at the highest level, arguing policies or arguing changes we want to make. They don't argue around the metric of improving American health at all. It is fully about jobs, it's fully about money and it's transparent. It's not even a pretense. And that's really how a lot of these structures are built, with the revolving door and with the embedded corrupt. So, so I do think part of the strategy, because you're not going to.

[C]

Get control of these bureaucracies in the next two years. They are unruly beyond imagination. But there's been a focus on massive wins that reset the paradigm. And you know, with the health, you know, people say, okay, we've banned the food diet. Is that going to be enough? We've, you know, reformed snap, we've, you know, instituted better nutrition guidelines and better food labeling and, and there's a lot of energy like, is that enough? Is that going to totally transform the system? No, it' we have a mass, a mass destructive system that health care is 22% of our GDP. It's going to be a long time to reform that. But getting these wins, getting this action, it keeps this coalition together and that's a big part of success. I feel like, to be candid, I think something that's being talked about a lot, we need to deliver for these voters, keep these voters excited, have this vision of transformational reform across many categories as the defining movement in politics. And if we can get years and elections like cycles and, and, and more voter enthusiasm, it's just going to give that leverage to keep getting wins. The system's been screwed incrementally over the past 10 years and we need to incrementally in a bold way, get it back. But, but that's what I think about. We need to deliver for voters. And if we have four years, six years, eight years where this type of movement and government keeps on the, the, the deep state gets replaced and the culture gets replaced. And when with healthcare, you know, the nih, they're resisting. I mean, they are absolutely resisting. They're laughing and they have memos they're sending around how to say they're doing work without doing work. There's literally a memo they're all sending how to not be subservient so you get fired, but actually not do anything because they think they're protecting science against President Trump and Bobby Kennedy, even though we're the sickest country in the world. So that's the type of culture, it's a deep culture of resistance to what's happening.

[B]

It makes Me sick to hear that. How is it not overwhelming to you when you look at. That's just nih, that's just one area.

[C]

This is kind of the back and forth. I think we go in Maha, there is something really dark that's happened when I got awakened to this from my sister, my mom dying, my whole journey. The book my sister and I were.

[D]

Gonna write was titled at first A Sick System. And it was a diatribe about how.

[C]

Depressingly broken the system is.

[D]

And as we were writing it and, and thinking about it, we really wanted to flip it to a positive good energy.

[C]

And I do think there's a positive, I think there's a negative and positive. What we're trying to do is shine that positive light through. And taking Maha, taking the health message, I mean, it's wild to me. In closed door meetings with the senior White House staff, with Secretary Kennedy, all we're talking about is how to get kids moving more, how to get healthy food, like really positive things. Do you think there's some conspiracy happening? The most closed door meetings are literally around how kids can eat healthier food. That is literally the highest, highest level of what we're talking about and how to do education campaigns and better incentives. And I think it's really positive, really light. And you put that up against the lobbyists who are relentless right now because there's trillions of dollars at stake. And the embedded, you know, bureaucracies of these institutions, they see nothing other than creating more pills and creating more shots to address diabetes, obesity, cancer, as, as, as, as the epitome of science. And I think this culture of our sick care system where the, where we were just sick and the only credible science, the only moral thing to do is create more jabs and pills for people. They see any questioning of that as an attack on science. And I think I've talked to it and I've seen this and I've really dug into the motivations. These are not evil people in their heads, but that's how they see it. I think everyone's been warped. I think with the military industrial complex, if we're not starting more wars, it's a problem with the Education Department if we're not spending more and doing more, even though we spend more in education than any country in the world, but have worse results, you know, we're doing poorly. So. So you have this information warfare where Trump clearly is shining light through.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I mean, actually, if you poll the American people, they agree with them on almost everything we've got to Fix education.

[D]

We'Ve got to fix our school systems.

[C]

We'Ve got to reform our healthcare systems. Our healthcare systems are not working. So it's really a battle over the.

[D]

Next two years of that, like, goodness.

[C]

Coming through with a, I think a media and kind of elite opinion echo chamber that's telling Americans that this is bad, it's really a war. But, yeah, it's pervasive.

[B]

I want to get into the specifics that you all are doing and being able to check some big things off the list very quickly in a moment. But first, you know, when you look at the history of this and how you use the word dark, and I'm sure that that's a nice word to describe some of the things and the details of the things that you are seeing. Obviously it didn't happen overnight. It's been going on for decades, even during that first Trump administration. How did we get, in your opinion, did we get to this level of darkness and despair when it comes to the overall health of Americans?

[D]

All right.

[B]

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[D]

Think it really drives to economic incentives.

[C]

I think everything started with good intentions.

[D]

And I go to like World War II.

[C]

So we had to feed the world.

[D]

So we created ultra processed food and we created, started packaging food. 100% of Americans diet, you know, before World War II was whole food, farm food and then antibiotics. And some medical innovations helped win World War II. So two things happened. The medical system saw very clearly that chronic disease treatments, that getting people on pills for life was the most profitable thing that they could do. And the first chronic disease medication in American history was the birth control pill in 1960, roughly. There's never been a pill in American history that you took for a prolonged period of time. And they very intentionally saw that and said, how can we take more and more conditions and make them chronic? So tell patients that you can't reverse this, but you need to take a pill for life. And today 95% of spending is chronic conditions. So it went from 0% World War II to 95% and medical spending only grew. When World War II ended, we spent 25% of our budget, our national budget on food, an income for an American and we spent 3% on health care. This incentive happened where this ingrained financial dependence on more and more sick patients led our agriculture system and our food system to basically downplay the importance of food, to downplay the importance of the root causes of why we're getting sick and the medical system to essentially accept that sickness was a given and create as my sister at Stanford Med School like her first year, right? The only serious medicine is prescriptions. The only serious medicine is medical interventions. It's created this culture in medicine where Casey was mocked at Stanford Med School for talking about nutrition. She said, they told her, they actually said stop being a pussy. You are not a nutritionist, you are a doctor. And we've created. You actually see it in the backlash to Casey, you know, having the tenacity to leave the system and speak out. That's not serious, that's not serious medicine.

[C]

We've been, we've been gaslighted into this and it's happened for so many decades that serious scientists at the NIH and at these systems see it, see it that way. They see any talk of nutritionist woo. And that's been very pervasive and very convenient. So today, again, 95% of spending is on these, these, these band aids. You look at the NIH, they've spent $10 billion in the past decade not on what causes Alzheimer's, but on Alzheimer's treatments. We haven't made any progress. We've spent well over a trillion dollars in the past decade on cancer research. Cancer rates are still going up. We're not searching for the root cause of why we're getting sick. We're only searching for drugs. And then those drugs. And I find this very depressing. We don't ask a question about how much those are.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You know, these treatments, we're paying $2.1 trillion in Medicare, Medicaid, these drugs, they're able to price them as they want. They're, they're, they're sometimes millions of dollars per patient. But, but, but then when you talk to senators and you talk to, you know, traditional policy staff about potentially increasing school lunch funding, which is now so cheap that all we can afford is ultra processed food for kids who are all getting sick and then need these drugs, and it's not even a starter. So we're really trying to change that culture to where we're spending these trillions of dollars. What's the best way to actually appropriate those to actually get healthier? It's clearly getting away from drugs more towards food. Again, this is a pretty bipartisan, pretty non. But, but, but, but these, these ideas are radical. They're like radical within the system. And again, it's, it's very depressing when you put these ideas out, how aggressive and violent the opposition is. How. You know, we had a meeting recently with the food industry and they brought a advocate from a school lunch group. And the school lunch group said it's gonna, it's really not good for kids to raise funding for school lunches. We need to keep school lunches cheap. It's really important. And I'm like, who are you? Like, are you being paid fully by the food industry? She's a guest. And, and they have like weaponized school lunches to argue, to literally lobby that we shouldn't be increasing more nutritious options for school lunches. So we, this is like, like large food companies, like, they twist the issues like in A really kind of, when you step out kind of evil way.

[B]

That's shocking to me also that they would be dumb enough to bring someone that pretty much lays it out there.

[C]

Yeah, that's.

[D]

I mean, we've had really good engagement with a lot of industries and this.

[C]

Is a push and pull and we.

[D]

Don'T want these companies to go away.

[C]

I was, I'm surprised sometimes when they.

[D]

Use the tactics that are kind of old school tactics like there's been a revolution in this country where I think thanks to largely to Secretary Kennedy and President Trump, we were awakening and realizing that there's something not right. But these, the tactics that have worked.

[C]

For decades in D.C. yes.

[D]

You weaponize the school lunch debate. You rebel. You, you, you know, they had the NAACP lobbying that we need to government subsidize Ozempic because it's a racial justice issue. They, you know, they've had. The food industry actually has used influencers to lobby medical guidelines to not weigh patients anymore because that's gonna, it hurts feelings and it hurts, you know, this weaponization. That's a clear sign from the Trump administration. I think this bullshit doesn't work anymore. Absolutely.

[B]

Didn't Michelle Obama focus on school lunches?

[C]

Okay, so Michelle Obama interestingly started in the first year on school lunches and food.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

She in a year later changed her entire focus to let's move. So one thing the food industry does is they go hard on exercise, which is very important. But for the past couple decades, the leading exercise advocacy organizations are all big food fronts. So if you go to the large exercise promotion groups, the board members are the CEO of Pepsi and the CEO of large food companies. So Michelle Obama, actually, I give her credit, I do give her credit for talking about school lunches. She was belittled by me, by Republicans. She was right.

[B]

Wait, why was she belittled?

[C]

Belittled? You know, the. Right. And this is a fair criticism. You know, a lot of people say, well, Bobby's talking about the same things Michelle Obama talked about. What's the deal? The Republicans attacked her. Like, like she was attacked, you know, for lecturing about food and stuff. And, and she got a lot, she did get a lot of attacks on Fox News for being the nanny state. So I do think, like in that first year she was onto something. And I do give her credit. It was interesting. The chief of the secretary of state for President Obama was John Kerry, who's.

[D]

Married to Teresa Hines Carey.

[C]

There was a ton of food lobbying and she completely changed to exercise.

[B]

Really?

[C]

And she ended up Partnering with Walmart and a bunch of other big food retailers and started to move the message more to hunger. Now hunger is a big issue, but this is another thing. We're relentlessly lobbied by hunger advocacy groups, all funded by food companies who are saying it's really actually racist and classist to talk about better food.

[D]

We just need to get more food to more people, cheaper calories.

[C]

And she actually got very co opted.

[D]

By that and that's been co opted on the left a lot. Hunger is a signal of big food.

[C]

Lobbying because what hunger translates to when.

[D]

You'Re talking about policy is let's just get the cheapest food possible. So she did, she did fold a bit. The other problem with Michelle Obama is she was really trying to do top down mandates. So, so she was trying to mandate that schools don't serve meat and she actually created a 500 page document with the USDA of guidelines to today at schools. I go visit schools. You know, there's arcane crazy rules where if you have a veggie burger it has to contain seed oils and it has to contain this and that. And a bunch of. It's a big lobbying document. The chefs at school spend more time reading this guideline document where you lose federal funding if you don't follow it than actually cooking. What we're trying to do is actually not have top down mandates, but we're going to make the nutrition guidelines four pages. They used to be 450, 500. And basically just empower schools and work with them. Let McMahon with one guideline which is serve real food, but maybe in California they'll have more kale and in Montana they'll have more beef. Like Michelle Obama was a little bit top down. She also was talking a lot about taxes and soda taxes. We're not doing that. We are focused on two things. Where is the government spending money right now? The government spends about $70 billion a year just from food stamps on ultra processed food. We're the only country in the world that sends money for the low income nutrition program. It's the low Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. We send the majority of that to literal junk food. You can buy Twinkies, Oreos on food stamps. Soda is the number one item. It's about 15% of spending sugar water. So we're subsidizing diabetes for low income children and then paying for the health care costs. So we're focused that the government shouldn't be spending money on this stuff. We spend tens of billions of dollars on school lunches. There's no Sugar limit with school lunches, we're changing that. The nutrition guidelines, the dietary guidelines. This is a heavily lobby document and is going to be a massive win for President Trump. It's going to be the boldest nutrition document in American history. It's coming out in a couple months. The reason that's so highly lobbied, and this is pretty dark, is that that flows to government procurement, so the schools, the military, jails, government facilities, has to buy based on the nutrition guidelines. And it's wild. I mean, you have people come in and say to this day that sugar isn't harmful and sugar doesn't cause obesity. We got lobbying to this day saying it's anti science to attack sugar as a cause of obesity. And I'm like, where do you think you are? Where do you think that's worked before? We have relentless lobbying to this day that meat is bad and that we only need to be eating grains. I mean, this is straight face lobbying backed by a ton of money. And again, that's the really optimistic, I think one of the signature points about President Trump right now, we're going to do the right thing. But again, it is dark because this document impacts children's health so much and it's not a conversation. And I do think this is maybe something I brought to it because I grew up in D.C. i'm pretty cynical. I am very. I want a revolution, but the revolution is going to happen by having these discussions and I like having them. And we need to bring the food industry along.

[C]

But the weapon we have right now is that voters voted on this issue.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah. I'll just give one more example. When we were doing the SNAP reform, this was a massive thing to work with states to take soda from SNAP. I mean, Coke makes $4 billion a year just from taxpayer money on SNAP. $4 billion a year. And this is a huge, huge thing. And the chattering class, the lobbyists, I mean, this is like the biggest thing for the beverage industry. The American Beverage association is extremely powerful in this town. And, and they were laughing that we were talking about this because it was so obvious it wasn't going to happen. This is the most important issue to them. And we just had Texas and Florida, 20 states take soda off at a high level meeting, right? We talk about, they, it should be talked about. You know, these soda companies are threatening to pull donations. There's, you know, senators that they're rallying up that are pissed. And usually. And this is just the way politics works. And I think it's fine. But there's A lot of money and a lot of corporate influence, and they make that felt very pronounced. But for the first time, we were able to cite the voters and what the voters have given Bobby Kennedy is in a discussion where there's a ton of force on the White House from corporate interest, he's able to say, well, this is what people expected. This is why people voted for the coalition. This is why women and young people and independents came and voted for President Trump. For the first time, that argument wins. So the way to beat the corporate influence is to vote on the issue. And that is the generational, I think, opportunity of this MAHA movement, that the awareness among senators and among people in the administration and people around states that moms vote on this issue, allow people to tell the soda lobbyists or the food lobbyists or what have you that they're not able to help. That's the key thing.

[B]

It was incredible to have sat down on my show last summer with Secretary Kennedy at the time just running for president.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And certainly, hey, it was a campaign, and you're anti Trump and you're anti Biden, and now we're all one big happy family. But to me, on that stage in Phoenix was the turning point of the election, because you brought all those people who were like, okay, yes, I get it with Trump, but I don't like this. I don't know if I can do it. And then you had Bobby Kennedy come out and talk and create another acronym with maha, you know, and look what happened. So I love that we, all of us, have to continue to use that. This is not even about opinions of this. This is about the facts as to who voted for President Trump and Bobby Kennedy, in some cases, simply because of the health reasons. So you've got that right in your back pocket. You've got Secretary Kennedy, who is fearless as well.

[C]

That's our weapon. Nobody could ever name another HHS secretary. The fact that. That there's this base and the fact that it gelled, and I knew this was going to happen because I was in the unique position of knowing the Trump campaign and supporting them and working with them, but also through my advocacy, getting to know Secretary Kennedy really well. Bobby Kennedy, at the time, the candidate and everyone was skeptical that this would work. I knew it would work. And being in that room in Phoenix, it was one of the most electric political moments I ever see in my life. And you felt it. There was something real there and something visceral with voters. It was like nothing I've ever seen. And the reaction to Bobby Kennedy throughout the Trump campaign that shocked people. I knew it was gonna happen because at the Bobby Kennedy rallies, I would ask their hippie looking supporters, would you support Trump or Biden? Trump. And they didn't look like Trump voters really. No. And I don't think they even knew they were potential Trump voters. But President Trump, his core message was the same as Bobby's, that the system is rigged against us. I don't think their message is inherently political or partisan. It's more larger spiritual issue.

[D]

I think the core of what they're.

[C]

Actually hitting on with voters is there is a cultural problem in this country. This is what Casey talks a lot about. And I think this is a core message from Bobby. We're doing amazing health policy, but the only thing that's gonna change this country is a cultural awakening. I mean, we're not having respect for like our kids and we're not having respect for what we eat and you know, we're not having respect for our environment. I think it honestly gets the environment. Like there's these, we're reclaiming some of these issues and actually asking I think core questions about like, like life right now. When it gets the health issue. That's what I think the core of.

[D]

What Bobby's tapping into is that there's.

[C]

Something much deeper wrong and President Trump taps into that. So I really felt from talking to both campaigns that they had that similar strain and it really worked and they have an incredible relationship and this, this partnership is real.

[D]

I think it's, it's difficult. And why I'm here is these are new coalitions. You know, you have, you know, 90% of farmers voting for President Trump and then anti pesticide advocates. You have, you know, pharma executives and you know, anti pharma advocates. I mean, you've actually got a complex coalition. But I think it actually is working and is going to work and making this coalition work. I mean, I'll be honest, my singular goal for transforming health in this country and policy is that this movement continues, is that it helps the midterms, is that it's a swing issue in the midterms. I think that's going to force the Democrats, frankly to be more maha. And I think 2028 is going to basically be arguing who's more like Bobby Kennedy. I think that it's incredible. I think if this movement, because he's right, he's just obviously like the core premise is obviously right. So that's what we think about strategically.

[B]

Yes, it's a no brainer. You have to Continue to just crush it on that issue. And then yes, you're focusing on the darkness. You're focusing on all the things, the corruption. It's heartbreaking actually. And there's so many wins right now. You mentioned the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, which is SNAP and even more wins now. Right. With states signing up. Can you go into detail for those people who aren't familiar with SNAP and the importance of it?

[D]

Yeah, yeah. At the highest level, more transformation, reform. Our food system has happened the past six months than any time in American history. Snap is the fourth largest program in the US government. We spend $120 billion a year to subsidize food for lower income people. It's huge. It's actually a mass distortion of agriculture markets. I mean it's a huge driver of the market forces. A lot of Americans depend on it. And it's decided by the states. And states in the past bipartisan have asked the USDA to change ingredients like take soda off. No brainer.

[C]

And this was an issue I worked on 15 years ago, early in my career in D.C. and it was talked about then. And Coca Cola weaponized civil rights groups. They had the NAACP say it was racist to restrict choice even though it's government funded soda that's giving lower income kids diabetes. And they won that battle. The USDA has rejected these waivers. New York submitted them. California, I think has submitted them over the years. And there was no real pressure that there was a huge, just domination from the food industry on these organizations. Six months ago I was working with Secretary Kennedy before, roughly six months ago, right before the election. And we were brainstorming with some governors, should we pass, could we pass SNAP waivers? Could we actually have a revolution? The states actually asked to reform SNAP so that more money is going to whole food to good food from local American farmers instead of soda and Twinkies and Oreos and candy bars. And we were told it was crazy. We were told like that is the singular issue that the food industry will fight harder than anything. You have no chance. And we tried and we talked to a couple governors and it's been an explosion around the country. So the core thing about this is 20 states, independently bipartisan, have gone against SOTA lobbyists. This Texas bill and this Texas effort to do this was the most lobbied issue in the state of Texas this year on a food bill. Legislation that involved this, the single most lobbied bill in Texas. CEOs of large companies were flying into states. They were going to Louisiana and going to West Virginia. The West Virginia governor who did this said he has never in his life had more pressure in his life. They said they were going to end his career, that he'd be done, he'd be over. The type of threats to not do this were overwhelming. But they also said these governors, one by one said that the calls they got from voters and moms, they received more calls on this issue than any issue they've dealt with in their political career. Lois Goldkhorst in Texas, who's the chair of the Health and Human Services Committee in Texas, who's been in the Texas legislature for decades, has said that she's.

[D]

Never seen more visceral voter reaction to these issues.

[C]

So I don't think this is even coming through in the media. Like there is something like real happening, something we saw coming through in the.

[D]

Media, something we saw when Bobby Kennedy was out on that stage and throughout the Trump campaign. I knew it.

[C]

Right?

[D]

I knew it.

[C]

Watching his, Bobby's reaction with Trump voters.

[D]

That the, that the media wasn't covering this.

[C]

Right. There's something really, really real.

[D]

So the great thing about this SNAP issue, it's been a partnership with the.

[C]

States and you've had governor by governor get threatened. Their political career was threatened.

[D]

They had the CEOs of major companies come and threaten to destroy them, literally.

[C]

And then the voters whispering in their.

[D]

Ear or shouting in their ear that this needs to happen has led a cascade of states.

[C]

So Texas and Florida, and you know.

[D]

Gavin Newsom is probably going to do it in three largest states. He's, he's being shamed into doing it. They're all making this decision. So it's showing the resonance of this issue and it's created the state patchwork where food, the food industry doesn't know what to do. It also happened with these food dye bills. I think it's really important.

[C]

I mean, these food dyes are in.

[D]

Like 60% of processed food. They're neurotoxic. It's not everything, but it's a really important symbol. And states around the country ban these artificial dyes, these petroleum based dyes in their food and created this patchwork. So that actually led all this state action to us to meet with the food industry and they're actually begging us to have federal change and now voluntarily doing it federally because when they have the state patchwork, it doesn't work. This bill in Texas also included a food labeling bill. So now Texas and Louisiana and conservative states are saying the federal government's failed us, we're going to have better disclosure on our food, like what's more American than that knowing what we're eating? There's an insane in hand that lobbies against even labeling what's in our food. We actually, a lot of the chemicals aren't even labeled. So Texas passed that bill, absolutely aggressively lobbied against and now other states are and now that gives the federal government a lot of leverage for nationwide food labeling. So we're going to have for the first time in well over a decade, almost two decades, a transformation in food labeling. We're going to have front of pac. It's going to be much more informative. That's because of the state action. So yeah, I don't think it's coming through in the media a lot. But there's, there's the fact that all these states see this resonating more than any other issue in America. This, this, this rallying cry for moms to make their kids healthier. It's powerful.

[B]

You mean even in the packaging and how it's presented. So the labels and what's in it is on the front.

[C]

Yeah, we're going to have front. The FDA right now is going through a funnel package labeling process. Democrat and Republican administrations have talked about this for many years. So yeah, I mean just, just looking at the past six months, we're initiating front of pack food labeling, SNAP reform, grass reform. It's wonky. But the fda, when, when Secretary Kennedy came in, did not have a list of what's in our food. The food industry is able to self police what's in their food. It's crazy, you can't even make this up. But they are able to deem their ingredients as generally recognized as safe grass without even speaking to the FDA. So there are 10,000 chemicals in our food and there's about 300 in Europe. So there's all these thousands and thousands of chemicals that through a loophole the food industry is able to just deem as safe. And a lot of these chemicals are not safe like titanium dioxide, which is banned in almost every other country. Huge issues. So what the FDA did and again Biden was talking about this, Obama was talking about this. Everyone's talked about it. Everyone's talked about it for literally two decades. Within 50 days we jam that reform through at the FDA and now it's a radical concept. But food, the food industry is actually going to have to prove the safety of what they put on our food. I mean this is not a conservative or liberal thing. They actually, the FDA actually wasn't even able to do post market review of chemicals that they thought were harmful and have any insight into what's in our food. It's crazy. It doesn't even sound real. But like, like this, this is one of the major things the food industry didn't want. They've fought it for 20 years. That changed in 30 days. So, so underneath the surface, right, there's, there's radical reform happening. But, and this is a huge message, I think, you know, for as we think about this, these reforms are not going to change the issue. What's going to change the issue is just a radical awakening and of course, individual people of reading labels and caring more about their health and frankly, asking more questions of their doctors. I mean, the biggest honestly accomplishment I feel and the most pride I felt.

[D]

In this movement is when I talked to a friend from business school who's also a doctor. She runs the largest dermatology clinic in the country.

[C]

And she pulled me aside at our reunion and she was very upset. She was very upset with me. And she said, Five years ago, we have data, almost 100% of patients and they have thousands of doctors didn't ask questions when they got a prescription. They just took the prescription. And the meeting, the average meeting length was eight minutes. Now the average meeting length is 18 minutes. And 80% of patients are asking questions. And their doctors are so annoyed. And she was indignant about this. She's like, the doctors are so upset and belittling these patients in the break rooms because they're asking, what's the natural cause? What's the root cause? Is there a non pharmaceutical way I can do this? And she hated it. They hate this. And I'm like, what are the issues that are being prescribed for? It's like eczema and other skin issues. And like, are those metabolically based? Are those tied to what people are eating and their root cause? She's like, yeah, of course. I'm like, why is it a bad thing that people are asking for a natural cure? The medical community hates that. They're literally laughing at these patients and wishing for Bobby to go away and wishing for this moment to go away. I could not think of a better accomplishment, more impactful accomplishment, that Secretary Kennedy and Donald Trump have helped unleash and legitimize this skepticism of our medical system. And that patients are searching for more root cause solutions. It is just constant belittlement from the media about supplements and about diet fads. And they're trying to belittle all this. They're trying to belittle what Casey says. This is the truth. This is the Medical truth. If people go on more of a path of curiosity about their nutrient deficiencies, getting blood tests and understanding what's going on inside their body, going on that path of curiosity, they're going to be much healthier, much more thriving. And that to me, this cultural awakening.

[D]

Is what's most important that's happening right now.

[C]

And that's totally because of President Trump.

[B]

I'm so sad, I guess, to hear what I kind of already knew. But when you go in depth like this, and I remember being a younger mother with one of my kids who, you know, was seeing therapist and needed, we were told she needed some medication. I didn't ask enough questions. I very much regret that. And she's fine and she's thriving now. But I trusted ends up it was the wrong thing and it could have been serious. I trusted this doctor, I trusted all my doctors. I trusted my doctors when I was pregnant here in Washington, D.C. and they said, yes, you have to go do this and you have to take this test and this chromosomal test and they don't talk to you about the risks with anything until something happens. And, you know, I'm one of millions of people who probably have some regrets about just fully giving them 100% of my trust and not asking questions because I didn't want to offend them. I didn't want to question their expertise because I have none. That's why I'm paying you. That's why you are a doctor.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And now look, now the trust is gone, not just from small experiences like mine, but also because of COVID and the vaccine and what we were told to do and to trust. And then we have Dr. Fauci out there admitting that he made up a six foot rule, admitting that masks never worked. So that's my issue now, one of many is how do we rebuild the trust in our medical system and our doctors. When you gave the example of doctors getting pissed off and annoyed and belittling patients for doing the job we should have been doing the whole time, which is just asking questions in order to understand how do we get the trust back.

[C]

It's not a talking point. This administration is trying to reclaim science. And Bobby is not telling anyone at the NIH what the answer should be. He's trying to make sure that they're not threatened over asking taboo questions. Dr. Fauci, until Jay Bhattashari came in recently, has essentially led the NIH for 40 years. Every single employee at the NIH was hired. And essentially in the sphere of Dr.

[D]

Fauci his acolytes ran the NIH ostensibly, but he was essentially leading that organization.

[C]

And that organization spends $50 billion a year on academic research and sets the agenda for every single research institution in.

[D]

The country because they basically follow the NIH's research lead.

[C]

And the NIH over the past 30.

[D]

Years has had zero curiosity about why we're getting sick and has been co opted beyond imagination by a system that makes money when people are sick. The head of the psychiatric division of the NIH now says that Bobby basically it's misinformation to say that we're over prescribing SSRIs even though that 25% of girls and women in the United States.

[C]

Are on some kind of psychiatric drug.

[D]

The degree that the institutions of our research systems are co opted by this interventionist based system is beyond imagination. And that follows economic incentives of these unbelievably powerful and rich pharmaceutical companies that only make money when people are sick do not make money when your daughter goes on a path of curiosity and really gets the root cause. Those SSRIs are supposed to be taken for life. They don't cure anything. And not that they're not, not potentially necessary in some points, but there is a huge invisible hand. So we are absolutely trying to get the right personnel and change the culture at the nih. Because what that does is that impacts culture, right? If you had unrelenting NIH research about precision and more personalized mental health techniques and how our mental health crisis is clearly tied to a deeper cultural issue and research on that, and research about food and research about how we don't need to necessarily jab ourselves, you know, for all these chronic conditions like obesity and diabetes. But actually there's a root cause, you know, dietary interventions. I mean, that's a radical concept that is seen as like unserious science right now. But if the NIH has billions of dollars of research saying things that we know to be true, we know intuitively to be true, and actually reinstills that intuitive thinking for Americans. It changes culture and eventually changes our medical incentives. The NIH research, this broken NIH research has informed our health spending to where all of our medical codes are tied to research and the research is super corrupt. So all of our medical codes go into, you know, the sick care system.

[C]

So, so I think getting the control of research is really important. I do think that there's a market pull too. People, young people aren't going to the doctor as much anymore. They're actually using AI. I mean, I actually find it pretty inspiring when I type in, you know, issues to AI, it's giving root cause advice, it's giving diet, it's not saying take a drug. Yeah, if you type in like your diabetes, your obesity, it actually gives people are, you know, getting more blood tests, understanding, reading books, the best selling books, the best podcasts, they're all. So people are like clamoring for information. And I do think this cultural awakening that's happening is going to eventually pull the market because I think people are just going to opt out of the traditional healthcare system. If there's one message I have, you know, from seeing inside the nih, the fda, it's that patients are on their own right now. When it comes to chronic disease, the system is not worthy of trust. It's worthy of being listened to, but it's not worthy of trust. It has been absolutely co opted by this interventionist sick care system. Diet issues and root cause issues and getting more in touch with our spiritual health and the interconnectivity of disease is not seen as a serious concept. It is broken and co opted beyond imagination. And I can say that definitively. People can believe me or not. And I cannot stress more. You should listen to your doctor, you should take, but you should go on your own path of empowerment. When it comes to chronic conditions. When it comes to chronic conditions, if you're a child or you are obesity, depression, heart issues, high cholesterol, the things we generally deal with, you are on your own to a large degree. I cannot stress that more. It's the simple truth. And I honestly think that the government.

[D]

Should be more clear on that. I think this is one thing with the Trump administration, with Secretary Kennedy, thank.

[C]

God, they're leading the government.

[D]

But the government and these institutions, they're.

[C]

Trillions of dollars and they're larger than any one person. They're working to reform that. But we should be really clear when it comes to health, it is, it.

[D]

Is very important to fight back against this infantilization of, you know, that you.

[C]

Did this trust that they've built and.

[D]

Shaming moms to give their kids drugs. Parents are now being shamed to not give their kids ozempic if they're 12. The American Academy of Pediatrics says that.

[C]

Parents are doing the wrong thing if they don't give their kids ozempic if.

[D]

They'Re obese at 12, instead of talking to them about dietary interventions. I mean, this is what's happening.

[C]

It is not good.

[D]

And I think an appropriate government message, quite frankly, is you really need to Get a second opinion. You know, you should not be taking a lot of the government up to this point, dietary advice. It's been totally co opted and terrible. We need to get back to common sense and root cause and we're fighting that. But, but that message, there needs to be a patient awakening, which I think is happening.

[B]

And if you go into your doctor for yourself, for your mother, father, elderly parent, for your child, and you don't feel comfortable asking those questions based on their responses, if you feel like you're being belittled, what do you do?

[D]

Okay, again, the framework is if there's something like imminently that's going to kill you, an acute issue, if you have an infection, a burst appendix, you know, like, like if you're at the end of the road of, you know, cancer or life threatening heart issues, like, listen, like, give your doctor much more credence, 100%. The US medical system is miraculous at acute things that are about to kill you. Miraculous at that. But that's about 7% of health care spending. It's actually a small part of it. If you are dealing with something that is chronic and not life threatening, if you are dealing with that high cholesterol where they're trying to put you on the statin, if you're dealing with the blood sugar prediabetes, where they're trying to put you in that metformin, if they're trying to jam that SSRI down your kid's throat, if they're trying to put your kid on Ozempic.

[C]

You'Ve got to understand that those doctors have not learned due to our broken medical system where the credentialing organization is totally bought off by pharma and that doctor did not learn about the interconnectivity of disease. My sister at Stanford med school excel honors and then surgical residency did not understand how inflammation that she was cutting out of people's faces with head and neck surgery and sinusitis surgeries was tied to diabetes or tied to cardiology issues. She did not. She saw and learned that heart disease, obesity, diabetes are all totally separate issues. If you have those conditions in the current system, you're seeing different doctors getting different drugs. They're not even talking to each other. Chronic disease is interconnected if you get to basic root cause habits. If you, if you have more curiosity about your blood work, I would see a functional medicine practitioner get a lot of blood work, understand what your nutrient deficiencies are. These symptoms are a sign of something deeper. You know, my mom, I talk about a lot, had metabolic Issues, potentially gestational diabetes when I was born. Oh, that's fine. Here's a drug that, that, that, that was a sign for her, that was a sign for her to understand how to actually reverse this. We need to see symptoms as gifts and what to do. Again, we talk about this in our book, but I really, I am a huge proponent of this company, Function Health. I have no relation to it, but it gives you a bunch of blood tests, a full, almost like I see it as like a roadmap to your body. I didn't realize I had a vitamin D deficiency. After getting the COVID vaccine, I had a low grade autoimmune issue. I mean I had some other nutrient imbalances like that gave me a roadmap to improve my diet in certain ways, improve my supplementation. I felt much better. I mean I cannot express to you how many people stories I hear where they are overweight, their kids are struggling with various issues and they just understand their blood tests. Read some books, listen to some podcasts and start thinking about these simple habits. But cutting ultra processed food out of.

[D]

Your diet, I mean that's, I thought that was a simple recommendation.

[C]

In the book that's been, I've heard.

[D]

From thousands of people just that simple.

[C]

Recommendation is like radical. You don't hear that from the medical system.

[D]

So that's what I'd say and I.

[C]

Think should be the message of our healthcare system. Those symptoms should be welcome.

[D]

Signs of. Patients need to go on their own path to figure out what's going on.

[C]

At the root cause. And you're not going to get that from the traditional medical system.

[B]

Symptoms are a gift. I love turning it around that way and let's not ignore them. And I know some of us have been guilty of that in the past. I want to real quick touch on this because you mentioned soda and obviously trying to make sure that it is not subsidized by the government anymore anywhere, especially in the SNAP program, et cetera. Demographics seem to matter a lot with a lot of these issues, but especially with this. The NAACP who's saying it is racist to try to limit the intake of soda in the black community.

[C]

This is one of the most depressing things to me how there is big inequality in this country. I mean a lower income man in the United States dies 15 years earlier than an upper income man. And that is largely, it's many factors but largely because of metabolic health and nutrition, some of these root cause things. The naacp, which has done great work in American history and as a obviously a Revered institution at the same time takes money from the pharmaceutical industry and the food industry. And they're registered lobbyists. They go into the Senate and lobby on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry and the food industry. And what's so evil to me is that they weaponize this affordability issue on food. They literally say, they literally say like, oh, we, you know, shouldn't raise. These people lobby for the food industry, these groups for not increasing spending on lunches. So that is so low that you can't afford whole food. They actually oppose spending on, they say it's anti scientific to have whole food, that there's processed food is fine. And they actually lobby to keep Oreos and things like that on school. They're expressly lobbying for that on behalf of these front groups. And they're using this affordability, we can't afford more food, we're going to cause starvation.

[D]

So that's when they're talking about an.

[C]

Increase from like three to four dollars on school lunches.

[D]

But at the same time they're arguing that Medicaid should subsidize Ozempic at a.

[C]

Cost of $1,300 per patient per month. So, so when it comes to Ozempic, the NAACP and these other front groups are arguing $1300, no question, pay that from the government. And the next meeting they're arguing we.

[D]

Can'T do school lunches three to four.

[C]

So when it comes to food and.

[D]

Not poisoning our kids to begin with, which is the biggest inequality issue in the country, they're actually arguing, don't, you can't touch that.

[C]

And kind of weaponizing this, you know, affordability issue. It's like when you back up, we.

[D]

Are going bankrupt from Medicaid, from health care costs.

[C]

$1.3 trillion we spent on Medicaid for lower income people.

[D]

So we're giving people incentivizing really bad.

[C]

Food and through lobbying and then just.

[D]

Gloves are off when it comes to drugs.

[C]

There's no question on how much we're.

[D]

Going to pay for the drugs. It doesn't make any sense.

[C]

And they're lobbying for that, using and.

[D]

Weaponizing racial justice and inequality issues.

[C]

So like, like, like again, you go.

[D]

Down the arguments and sometimes I do like I ask the lobbyists to step back and understand what they're saying. This is real cultural change. But this is the opportunity of this moment and of the Trump administration. This isn't policy right now. But what we need to get to is really look at this gargantuan amount of money that we spend in the United States on these matters. And I always think about that $5 trillion we spent on health if we could just look at that and ask, how do we incentivize lower income kids to, to eat better food? And I'll also say with the slobby. And you see this from the left, there is a disdain for poor people.

[C]

Like the way they talk is like.

[D]

Well, these people can't help but poison themselves. These people, these people are, you're not gonna, you're not gonna get the, you're not gonna get these folks to do anything other than eat their crappy food and drink their.

[C]

So I don't think that's true.

[D]

I, I think people want to thrive. I think moms want their kids to be healthy. And I've talked to a lot of people of, of all different socioeconomic, racial, whatever. Like, like, I think Americans want to be held. I think we have this psyop where we feel like it's inevitable. And that, that, that, that idea comes through so much in conversations with lobbyists and kind of the conversations like it's this, it's this, no, nobody's gonna change. People don't change. Like, you know, I look at my mom like she followed the nutrition advice from the food pyramid. She went to the Mayo Clinic and all the best hospitals is told to take the drugs no problem. The American Diabetes association, she had pre diabetes. You know, their guidance was actually you can eat as much sugar as you want as long as you take your drugs. I mean these industries are all co op. She followed the advice, but she, she wanted to live like, like, like, like she absolutely would still be here. And if a doctor told her 20 years ago or she had more incentives or more guidance to, you know, understand the root cause of her issues, I think that's the case for so many people. So I have this dream that we.

[C]

Really, you know, look, look at Medicaid, look at lower income people, give them choices. You know, what if they could use those $1.3 trillion of Medicaid funds to, you know, get functional medicine, drug tests, understand what's happening with their kids, get some dietary coaching, potentially use that money, you know, to bridge the gap on not, you know, only being able to afford ultra processed food. Like, like there's a real positive vision there that really is like to me, the positive road that we're going on and I think would change the country.

[B]

I think sometimes it is so overwhelming for the average citizen who is not in the medical field or help field of any kind. And again, it goes back to the trust issue. And when you start to unpack all of this and you realize that you have really been essentially lied to and used your entire life, and then you, like, where do you begin? Where do you begin? And especially when you look at some of the people in those lower socioeconomic status and those areas in the inner cities, etc. Where do you begin? And it has to go ahead.

[C]

No, no, please.

[B]

I mean, to me, it is just not being afraid to question. But when you can't afford to go to Whole Foods, when you can't afford to get some of that organic food in your schools, you're a long way away from really noticeable changes in the food to help at a young age to start kids off on the best path.

[D]

Right.

[B]

That's where you go. That's where I understand. I think, why they just keep doing it.

[C]

So I agree. But I think this is something that we're really talking about and focus on. I don't think the medical system even. We gotta fix the incentives. We gotta fix the trillions of dollars. We're gonna have some policy wins. But again, I think that the real accomplishment's gonna be a cultural awakening. And I put a lot of blame on the medical system. The medical system hasn't been clear about these issues. Like the dean of Harvard Med School and the head of the nih, he is now. But the health leaders of this country should be beating the desk and beating the table and coming to the White House and demanding and saying that we have a metabolic health crisis among kids and parents need to wake up and we need to really think about what we're feeding our kids. And we're now doing that. But I do think there's mass affordability issues, but ultra processed food is not that cheap. McDonald's is now like $10. So we're actually, again, I'm excited about my sister getting in there through the public health messaging accounts, educating parents how.

[D]

To actually create and make convenient, nutritious.

[C]

Food for their kids.

[D]

There's really an information gap, and I think a force from the medical system. What I always say is the medical system knows how to make a point. When in unison, all the medical leaders say something, it happens. So they said, we need to shut the country down. And it happened. And the medical system is really clear. As a new parent, they're really clear that you're a war criminal if you do not take these 72 shots at the exact right time. So. So it's. It's well substantiated that the medical system knows how to Make a point. They made a point with the Surgeon General report on smoking. Like, smoking rates went down. So why isn't there that level of clarity of communication when it comes to childhood nutrition, you know, right now under President Biden. But this is still in effect. The USDA put out a report saying that a diet 91 in ultra processed food could be healthy for a child. Today. The Dietary Guidelines do not say ultra processed food is bad for kids. To this day, the dietary guidelines say that up to 10 added sugar is okay for a two year old to get a kid's addicted to sugar to this day. You know, in many states, you can buy soda on Snap. And in West Virginia, in some of these lower, more lower income states, it's like the average five year old's drinking like three sodas a day. Like Snap subsides. It's like, like parents, like government's not telling them that this is wrong. They're telling them like, okay, we'll just drug your kids later. So, yeah, I do think that step one is like, we've kind of infantilized people a little bit and we've kind of like hadn't given them tough love. So I think like this fitness commission, which hopefully you can get involved with, it's like, you know, tough talking people and Bobby Kennedy talks, real talk and you know, like, Dana White's obviously involved. I think we need like, that Dana White, like, Bobby Kennedy fearless. Yeah. Like telling parents, like, and I'm working on this message. Right. But it's like kind of like we're working. We're working really hard, but you've been lied to. And you as parents and us as citizens need to get this dialed in. And really, it's very simple. We need to stop giving our kids ultra processed food. We need a kid's plate to be steak, broccoli, maybe some grains. Literally. We transform the country. If that happens, we transform the country. And that's what the Dietary Guidelines are gonna. It's not that complicated. Yeah, so. So the public health messaging kind of. I like that kind of, you know, more. More Dana White, more whatever you want to call it. More tough talking. Like, like, like Americans need to wake up and see leadership from the medical system too. If a kid's plate has some good protein, some vegetables, you know, some grains, I mean, we're good. Like, truly, we, we. We would absolutely implode healthcare costs. Europe has half the rates of diabetes and obesity than America. Half the rate. It's half. We did a budgetary analysis recently at the, you know, with the omb, we.

[C]

We take trillions off of our budget. It literally, if we just take obesity and diabetes to European levels, Europe and, and Europe does not have great health policy. They have a socialist system. It's terrible. The answer to this is not like fixing Medicare, Medicaid, reimbursement rates. They have a different culture. And I don't think we should be giving Europe much credit for a lot, but we should be studying what that culture is. But truly, if parents just woke up and gave their kids real food, we would absolutely dramatically improve the economy, dramatically improve happiness and productivity of our citizens, and dramatically reduce the budget. And these are the things we're fighting for. I mean, it's outside the box thinking that Trump is welcoming, where everyone is hand wringing about the budget and we're going to go bankrupt. And nobody's talking about this. We are now. But the core part of the budget, the largest part of the budget, is healthcare expenses tied to metabolic dysfunction. If we had this cultural awakening, it would actually solve the budget problem. So these are the type of things we're starting to open the door on. And I think there's a lot of impatience I have for more change, a lot of impatience I know voters have, but I think we're winning.

[B]

It is so exciting at the same time, and I think some of these numbers, it's like bam, bam, bam. I keep hearing it, but in Europe, there's a total of 300 ingredients that are put in the versus 10,000 here. No wonder I travel a lot, I'm on airplanes a lot. I know you are too. And when you look at airports alone, you sit there and you go, oh my goodness, this is going to take, yes. A reckoning and waking up of everybody and every socioeconomic status and every city, state, small town, whatever, to just take a look, a step back. And it is hard because it is habitual. I have a sugar problem, I have a chocolate problem.

[C]

It's addictive.

[B]

And there are things. Okay, so. And you have a baby, you have a three year old one on the way.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And hopefully many, many more means babies. The thing is, yes, you're gonna be healthy. There are some basic things that we all know. And you can live and you can have your birthday cake and kids can go do certain things at friends and sleepovers and schools, et cetera. It's just finding that happy medium. Right. How do you and your wife keep all of this in mind? Obviously, it's your life, right. But you still live, you still do the basic fun things and have certain meals you give yourself a break. It's not completely.

[C]

No, I think it's the food industry.

[D]

Insight that they came up with in the 80s. I think it started where I've talked.

[C]

About how the cigarette industry started consolidating the food industry.

[D]

So in 1990, 40% of the US food supply was owned by cigarette companies. And they realized they could make food addictive. And it's a product everyone has to buy all the time. And they could kind of equate this addictive technology into food that's just a normal part of life. So the real problem is the habitual, you know, the stats on the percentage of Americans they eat fast food, like almost on a daily basis. And it's just like, so, so, so I think it's dialing in like the daily habits and, and you know, I think the message to schools and the message to parents is try not to have ultra processed food in the house. And what does ultra processed food means? It means, you know, try to not have things with a ton of ingredients that are in a bag in the house. I mean, and then we got to get it out of schools. I mean, if we get two to three of those meals that are now again, 70% of a child's diet right now in America's ultra processed food, I mean, it's just Frankenfood now. What's wrong with that? You know, it's really nutrient poor. It's combined with all these chemicals. It's combined with these food dyes, preservatives and the science discussion. So. Oh, well, is this the problem? Is the food dyes the problem or is the, you know, processing things the problem? It's a mix of everything. Like, this just isn't natural food. And you know, we actually get this a lot. It's like, can you show me a study on whether, you know, this food dye is bad or is it this or is that. I'm like, to even study that, you'd have to like, what, have different kids and give a placebo controlled trials. Some like fake dye and some like have them chug oil. You couldn't even study this. A lot of these chemicals would be unethical to even study because they're so manifestly obviously bad. So these. That's the problem with ultra processed foods. It's this mix of a bunch of different things. And then again that, that nutrient pour, the processing takes out all the nutrients and you know, it's high in sugar, high in salt, high in fat, but low in nutrients. So your body's kind of tricked it wants to eat more.

[C]

So that's what we try to, we try not to have ultra processed food in the house. You know, I mean, luckily we have Casey and you know, who wrote this book. And we do really just go by the book. It goes through how to balance a meal. You know, have good protein, have some good vegetables on the plate, ideally some fermented food. And you know, if you don't have it in the house or have it in the schools, that's a start. I mean, that's really where I'm focused. It's the daily meal and then.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

I mean, you know, we've really tried to keep him from sugar. We don't try. Not militaristic about it, but if you solve the daily habits. But you know, as I'm talking about this and something we talk about a lot, we've got it. I want the Trump administration and they, I know people in the administration want this. We want to go hard on schools. I mean, yeah, I think you can fix a lot. I think we're really, really, really letting our kids down at schools. Most schools still have soda machines and junk food. So I think that can change a lot.

[B]

Well, and then you have other big steps, like bringing back the Presidential Fitness test, which I remember as a kid. I mean, that was a thing you wanted to get that certificate. You know, it's like the President knows who I am and I can do this many push ups and I can run a mile or whatever it was. And like it was exciting to me to see the news of this. And yes, it's all related with health, but that's something, that is a fun thing. It's a competitive thing. We need to bring back the competitiveness in schools in that way, don't we?

[C]

Yeah. President Obama canceled it. He said it was too competitive.

[B]

Okay, Wasn't that like 2012? Too competitive?

[C]

Too competitive?

[B]

What does that even mean?

[C]

We've lost the plot.

[B]

Plot.

[C]

We've lost the plot. It's don't weigh patience. The fitness test is too competitive. I really, I, I think this fitness commission is one of the most notable and I think important things that President Trump has done. Again, we just kind of rejuvenate culture. It's like, it's kind of simple. It's like kids should eat whole food, they should exercise more, be more competitive. I mean, it's like, this is not complicated.

[D]

It's actually not. And I just love it.

[C]

I love, you know, hopefully get you.

[D]

Involved and, and they're going to have.

[C]

Around the country and you know, there's.

[D]

A lot of optimism. I'm so excited about these nutrition guidelines. I mean that's been for years what Casey I have been talking about and the corruption of the nutrition guidelines.

[B]

What does this look like, by the way, in schools again, for people who aren't familiar with pft once did in schools for decades, you know.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. Well, so now, so they launched it's the president and we made this very purposeful. It's the Commission on Sports and Nutrition. So it's got a nutrition component. We're going to do mass events and really evangelize these dietary principles. The guidelines come out and then the presidential fitness test. I talked to the executive director right before I came, who wants, who I just connect you with and she's excited to talk to you, but they have not released the details. But I remember as a kid, right, you had to do a certain amount of sit ups and some pulls. If you could just pull, pull ups and the mile and I think it's great. And I think there's going to be really, you're going to have all these elite athletes go to schools around the country and rally kids, get them more competitive.

[B]

And the nutrition aspect of it.

[D]

Yeah, aspect is going to be really tied to the dietary guidelines which are going to come out in the next month or so. It's going to be radical. I mean, and that has been a super positive collaboration with the usda. Great collaboration with farmers. But again, it's like we're not going to have this maha wave and not address sugar and nutrition guidelines. Sorry, lobbyists. Like we're going to do the right thing for kids. It's not the science that leads any policy, honestly. It is, it is politics. And Bobby's and President Trump, the voters that they brought, I mean women were 23% in favor of Hillary in 2016.

[C]

They closed that gender gap to 7% in 2024. And then young people in Independence were 50, 50, which you could have imagined four or eight years ago for President Trump. So there was something about this maha wave and that those voters so and this has been publicly talked about, but there's been this war on saturated fat which, which has really demonized meat and protein. You actually basically can't really serve like steak at schools because there's this demonization of saturated fat. I mean as a three year old, any parent, like, kids love steak. It gets them full. It's protein. They love it. They like it more than candy. It's amazing. Like steak is great. It's got a ton of Nutrients. It's like I say give kids steak everywhere. That gets them full. They feel great. Like steak. Like. Like the melchobalm was trying to give them, like, kale burgers or something. It's like, let's give them real food. Like. Like real food.

[B]

So we're gonna have some kale on.

[D]

The side of the about.

[C]

But have you read me evangelized fruits and vegetables? And the fruits and vegetables, I mean, this is my opinion. You know, kids, especially low glycemic, you know, berries and stuff, they can eat as much as they want. Like. Like their body regulates well. And, you know, there's fiber in there. And, like, you know, to get the amount of sugar, you know, in a Coke, you need to eat, like 40 oranges or something.

[D]

So, like.

[C]

Like, like, like fruit's great, vegetables, some steak. I mean, that's the type of common sense things we're gonna be evangelizing.

[B]

Isn't it, like 35, 40 grams of sugar in one Coke, or is it more?

[C]

No, it's more. It's like, for a bottle, I think. Yeah, it's like, over 40.

[B]

And your daily intake, ideally for sugar, is 20, 25.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. Under the current. Which is. Which is too high, but.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Which is too high. So one bottle of soda, and that is good enough for two and a half.

[D]

Yeah, it's too high.

[B]

And again, I feel like this wasn't talked about when I was a kid, and I'm a lot older than you and a lot of other people, but still, it is never too late. And I think that that's what I want people to remember, too.

[D]

Oh, totally.

[B]

You know, I have parents in their. In their 70s. It is never too. We watch my dad, because my dad, he'll go sneak it, you know, and he's a. He's a cancer patient times two. He's got two. And I wanted to touch on this as well, because obviously you mentioned the loss of your mother, which it's been right at four years. Is that right?

[C]

Yeah, 20, 21.

[B]

20, 21. Pancreatic cancer.

[D]

Pancreatic cancer.

[B]

And it was fast, very fast.

[C]

Two weeks from the diagnosis.

[B]

Overall, what was her health leading up to that diagnosis?

[D]

I mean, this is one of the big things for me. We thought it was fine. And she was very, you know, privileged from the health care standpoint. I mean, she. She went to, you know, the best hospitals to get her physicals. You know, she went to the Mayo Clinic and Stanford Hospital, like, regularly. And. And yeah, the wild thing for me is a month or Two before the diagnosis, she got her checkup and they said she looked great and she was on five medications. That's the big thing, the resonant thing for me about my mom is it's just this poignance for me of her journey of the high blood sugar and getting the metformin, the high blood, the cholesterol and getting the statin. 15 minute appointment on that drug for the rest of her life. They said she was healthy because at five medications, she was on less medications than the average 71 year old. We have 4.9 billion prescriptions a year in the United states. The average 70 year old is on more than 5. So she was actually by the metrics, below average. So I'd say your point is really, really important on it doesn't matter what age you're at. Because of my sister's metabolic health awakening and advocacy, she was really getting my mom on the program. So I'd say a couple years before.

[C]

That my mom was losing weight and improving her biomarkers and devoting herself to this growth. She was always reading and always growing and our house is just full of books by Mark Hyman and, and other metabolic health leaders and she was doing all these supplements and just trying different things. It was really inspiring. Now that pancreatic cancer we learned, was growing for years, so it was too late. But I really feel like that lives within me. I mean, her journey really inspired me and that's the foundational point my sister and I have from her death, is that she's living on with what we're trying to do. So, so, so even though it's kind of morbid, it's like her, it was too late for her in a way. I think just anyone being on this journey, you know, I see it as almost like a spiritual thing. It's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's very gratifying I think, to understand more about the interconnectivity of what's happening in your body. I think, I think nobody goes on that journey and I think more and more people are doing it around the country right now of just like trying to understand and dial in their habits. I think it's just a really gratifying journey that impacts other people. And just from my small vantage point writing this book, I was really, I thought it was super basic, just putting like shopping lists in and putting like tips in. So many people saying, thank God I have finally have like specific tips of.

[D]

Like what to buy.

[C]

Like they just clamoring for information we got to do more of this from hhs.

[D]

It's just like basic information, and then, then people like saying it helped turn their lives around. The simple information, giving their book out.

[C]

It's like this virality is spreading in.

[D]

A lot of different ways.

[C]

While it didn't work for my mom.

[D]

Obviously in her sense, but, like, spread out. I have so many stories of people.

[C]

In their 70s, 80s that transform their biomarkers.

[D]

You know, get more into weightlifting. That's so important for people that are older, the muscle and for glucose regulation and injuries, it's just so important. And there's just so many stories of people turning their lives around, extending their lifespan. I mean, so, no, this is a message for everyone. I think you have that with a.

[C]

Lot of our parents and older people.

[D]

I think a lot of people are actually, like, waking up across the board, and it's really important.

[B]

The book is good energy. Yes, good energy with you and your sister, Casey. I am trying to picture, as a mother of older kids now, what that felt like for your mom before and after her diagnosis, to witness what her kids are choosing to do with their lives to help so many. What were those final conversations like with her?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, it was the most important 12 days of my life.

[C]

The final conversations with my mom were about the impact that she had on other people. The indelible image I have is she was bombarded with letters. People sent letters and emails that we printed out, and she was covered with hundreds of different notes. And it was people that she knew very well and had a massive impact, or people that she only met a couple of times. Some of my friends who said that some advice she gave was like a defining in their lives. And so it was just that idea with such a quick window where she was planning on doing so many adventures with my dad over the coming decades.

[D]

And that like.

[C]

Like quick hit of just how the time on this earth didn't matter given how your impact on other people. And then Casey had this beautiful scientific kind of analysis that when you meet someone, you actually change their, you know.

[D]

Almost cellular makeup and you actually do, like, live on in people in a real way.

[C]

And how all those letters represented, you know, truly her changing those people actually on a biological way too, and how she literally, in a way, lives inside.

[D]

Them and changed their neuroplasticity. And that concept really was poignant to me.

[C]

And then she just obviously just exponentially got weaker.

[D]

And then I guess before you die, you kind of can have more like.

[C]

A burst of energy. And she had this burst of energy.

[D]

On her last day.

[C]

And we carried her to the car and drove to where she was going to be buried, which overlooks the ocean. And it was so beautiful. She embraced my dad and just was like, this was awesome. Like, such a good life. And just watching them was so beautiful. Just like 40 years. And my dad, obviously was just, like, expecting 20 more years, but it was just that idea that, like, the time didn't really matter. Like, she just, like, you know, Casey and I had that. I mean, every death is different, and I don't know how many lessons to draw because there's so much wrapped up in this, but we never were even that upset. Like, we were actually, like, really emboldened, and, you know, we. I felt like there was something just beautiful that I saw seeing my mom's death through Casey's eyes. And, you know, the idea that my mom was on five medications, but she was still told this was, like, unlucky, but the cancer wasn't unlucky. And just, like, even fused with some of those lessons we learned from my mom in the final days. We just, like, wanted to share it and talk about it, and it has been beautiful. I mean, like, even, like, now, this toxicity and this, like, I feel like I'm at battle, and I. But I. That's what I like to do. I mean, I grew up in D.C. and that's how I'm trying to contribute. But, like, you know, from my perspective, it was just, like, this beautiful moment that we wanted to evangelize the world. We felt like we had something to say. And then Secretary Kennedy and all these different leaders. A lot's come together in the last couple of years where I think what we experienced and the frustration and the promise of a better system, like, it. It just. It just come through to a lot of people in a lot of different.

[D]

Ways, and we're just proud to be in that.

[C]

In that battle.

[D]

So it's. It's really.

[C]

It's really gratifying, but it is. It is definitely balanced with.

[D]

With darkness.

[C]

I mean, like, it is.

[D]

It is a battle. It is a battle. And I think there's information warfare happening.

[C]

And just, like, voters and just, you know, stuff on Twitter, and it's just like, there's so much emotion, there's so much money.

[D]

There's. There's, you know, genuinely people frustrated because.

[C]

They'Re dying, their kids are tied.

[D]

I mean, this is, like. This is consequential. And I just. I do think it's beautiful that Trump.

[C]

President Trump has kind of marshaled.

[D]

This is Just one. This is one of area of his portfolio, but it's happening. I mean, I know, you know, Tulsi.

[C]

And the people on that side are fighting demons too.

[D]

I mean, it's like. It's like. It's like he's basically marshaled these people that are like. It's like civilizational. It feels like. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Kelly. I'm picturing that moment. What a gift to be able to witness that moment with your mom and your dad.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

That's beautiful.

[B]

Love. How long were they married?

[C]

Almost 40 years.

[D]

Like, yeah. So beautiful.

[B]

We don't. That's well beyond the average now, too. I mean, what a beautiful thing that most kids probably don't get to witness. Even though it was also heartbreaking. How is your dad?

[C]

He's amazing. Well, it's funny. So my sister and I were, like, super. We just felt so enlightened.

[D]

Like, we thought. I thought it was gonna be the worst.

[C]

Like.

[D]

Like, my mom's dying.

[C]

My mom dying was the biggest fear I've ever had. And something about, like, just her. I mean, just like, her lesson and, like, watching that, we were just, like, really emboldened. And just, like, honestly, when she died, it was like mass gratitude, you know, being able to view that with her and my dad and just this idea of how she lives within us and just how beautiful life is. I mean, we've talked about this before, but we. We had this experience with psychedelics shortly after that, which was the most powerful.

[D]

Moment of my life and helped, like.

[C]

Really put some of these ideas together that was.

[D]

That was helpful for me.

[C]

My dad was a little upset, which makes sense. And my sister and I for a while were, like, berating him for not being more, like, grateful and happy and, like.

[D]

And.

[C]

And my sister. I finally talked for a little bit. It's understandable.

[D]

He's upset.

[C]

Like, we shouldn't be.

[B]

Like, what in particular?

[C]

He's just upset about my mom dying, of course.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And my sister and I felt so it. Like we were just, like, ready to storm the world. And, like. And we were actually getting frustrated.

[B]

Like, we received it.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But we were for a while, like, telling my dad, hey, get on board. Like, let's go take over the world.

[D]

And he was upset.

[C]

So my sister and I had a meeting with each other, and we're like, you know, we probably shouldn't be berating.

[D]

Dad for not being enlightened like us.

[C]

That's not very good energy. So we just. But so then we stopped trying to.

[D]

Tell him how to act.

[C]

And I like to Think he maybe saw some of our energy and he just has been so amazing and just grateful. He goes to my mom's grave like almost every day. But he started, actually found a new amazing person that's been a long term family friend whose husband died abruptly right at the same time. And it's been beautiful. He's traveling all over the world and trying to carry my mom's good vibes forward. So it's been.

[B]

I imagine seeing your dad smiling again. He's doing great with a partner and with love. Like, that's certainly probably difficult at first because you miss your mom. But at this point, knowing that it's providing him happiness and therefore, who knows, longevity.

[D]

Oh, my mom would have been very happy with this. And again, they knew each other and this woman's husband abruptly died and no, it's perfect. And yeah, it's just a lesson for me and Casey, like, don't. Don't lecture my dad how to act. Just try to show good energy. And then my dad just, it's just gratitude and just trying to. Just trying to carry her, you know, vibe forward. I mean, that's how we really feel. So I'm very reluctant to give any advice on death because it's so idiosyncratic to like. And we had this. My mom was just, it was just amazing and very, you know, easy in a way because of that. And. But I do think somehow having that gratitude has been really helpful and having this mission has been a great way for Casey and I to try to push it forward.

[B]

I know you have to walk back over to the White House here, so I'm going to wrap this up. I did want to ask you specifically about. It stood out to me how you talked about all of the work and the billions of dollars that are being put towards trying to find cures and treatments for cancer. My dad has prostate cancer, which is fine until it's not spreads. And that's where it is with him, even though it's behaving now. And he also has multiple myeloma. And I love the Multiple Myeloma Research foundation and I love the V Foundation for Cancer Research. I was on the board for a few years there. It meant so much to me. And all the focus and money is going towards cures, which is super important.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

And I don't hear many people saying what you said, which is the importance of going to the root to find out the why and the cause behind all of these cancers. And I know the numbers here in the United States are astronomical. How do we Continue to do what we're doing to find cures. Hopefully we keep praying about that and put more into the why behind it so it doesn't get to that point in the first place.

[C]

Well, I think President Trump is in a great situation, very lucky, because we are gonna have two things happen in the next five years. I think we're gonna have a revolution in actual cures given what's happening with, with AI and just the incredible technological advancement, which is also really scary. And we're having awakening on the root cause. So it's interesting, Bobby Kennedy, the Mahas not standing against drug development. The FDA is actually this year going to improve more drugs than any time, any year in history. So there's a revolution in development. What I'd say is we've lost track of what the public health authorities, what.

[D]

Our public authority should be doing.

[C]

The goal of the NIH is to.

[D]

Spur advancements that, you know, promote human health. And I, I think that they're the nih and, and these apparatuses like the FDA have been really appendages of the pharmaceutical industry. So number one, I think that the NIH should be more focused on what the root cause of situations, of the situation is and, and really why we're getting sick not just as an outsourced R and D lab for pharma, because the R and D, if you find the cure for cancer, you're going to be very rewarded. I want the company to get really rich. So there's that attribute. And then this is very technical, but I think there's really broken incentives actually for disease management, not cures and how drugs are paid out. So we're actually thinking about that really hard and how to really incentivize cures. But, but no, I just, I think It's. We spend 40 times more as a country on treatments for cancer rather than studying how to prevent cancer in the first place. We're just, we're totally off base. Of course they're both important, but we're, we're just so slanted towards that intervention side. And it's been a failure. I mean, we spend $400 billion a year in cancer management and cancer rates are going up. I mean, you know, we have to be there for our parents who get cancer. I mean, and you should absolutely see your doctor and think. I mean, I get second opinions, but think twice or listen to them very carefully. But what's this environment that's creating all this cancer? We have the. This is just shocking to me. It's the highest cancer rates of any country in the world, the United States in human history. So there's 212 countries that measure cancer rates. We have the highest in the world. Interestingly, Iowa is the highest cancer rates in the country. So I don't make hypothesis on why that is.

[C]

So. Iowa is actually the highest rates of cancer of any place in the world in the history of human civilization.

[B]

Okay. So my non medical guess is that it's in the middle of farming country and pesticides and it might be that's.

[D]

What some people intuit.

[C]

That's a whole longer.

[B]

Oh my goodness.

[C]

We've been having great conversations with farmers actually and that's an issue we haven't even talked about.

[D]

And you mentioned earlier they need those tools and they're really important.

[B]

But you mentioned earlier the farmers who are what, 90% of farmers voted for President Trump this past election. So they understand the importance of what he's trying to do.

[D]

In many ways they do.

[C]

Yeah. And to me the farmers are just a fat. Because they've been screwed in so many.

[D]

Ways and so many incentives.

[C]

And you know, Secretary Kennedy has long.

[D]

History, you know, he's won lawsuits against pesticide companies.

[C]

It's actually been really rewarding talking to them in the past couple because these things aren't black and white.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You know, pesticides are needed for crop production and farmers need to be supportive. I, I've actually, you know, we, I.

[D]

Think we found a really good message because it's not about lecturing people what to do or not to do, it's about supporting them because they do want to do the right thing.

[C]

But yeah, I mean there's, there's risks.

[D]

And trade offs with everything and I think that's just what we need to do in the next 10 years. It's not radically changing anything too much, but it's incremental change, helping innovation. And I do think, I mean, I.

[C]

Think President Trump, I think they're going.

[D]

To come up with the most breakthrough cancer cures in the next four years.

[C]

While awakening a revolution in how people.

[D]

Think about preventing these things, which Bobby Kennedy's doing.

[C]

I actually think there's a lot of.

[D]

Optimism that's coming in the next four years if the AI and robots don't destroy us first.

[B]

That's a big gift. Callie Mains I think it is. You know, but this, this makes me so happy. I kind of end on this note. You have such optimism, so much hope and true excitement. Like I can feel that from you and certainly Secretary Kennedy. So to go along with that darkness because there's A lot of it. And I'm sure the deeper that you dig, do you ever want to run and say, like, oh my gosh, this is overwhelming.

[D]

I feel like I've really been called to do this. And there's so many millions of people that have been speaking out and talking about these issues that have all come together. And I feel like I'm adding value as much as I can with my experience growing up in D.C. and I enjoy kind of fighting the darkness internally. And I actually don't think it's the most important thing. I think the most important thing is societal change and individual change and cultural change. I don't think we're going to solve this with some magic bullet policy solution. But I think the political conversation has pushed the culture too. And I feel called to do is dark. And I wouldn't say it's fun, but.

[B]

Rewarding certainly when you have these wins.

[D]

Yeah, it is. And I think we're having a consequential moment in the country right now. And I wanted to not be a flash in the pan. The lot of people in the deep state are. I think that Secretary Kennedy is going to be a flash in the pan, that we're going to go back to business as usual. And I really think every day about defeating that mindset and disappointing the many, many people in the scientific deep state. And having Secretary Kennedy there for as long as he wants, having him, you know, choose his replacement, and this movement where we're actually asking about the root cause continues on. So that's my goal.

[B]

You have proof that millions of people are behind you. And I believe without Bobby Kennedy joining Donald Trump last summer, we would not be here today. Absolutely not. And so what a blessing. Also, and I'll end on this because you mentioned earlier, you know, some of the messaging and the conversations that you guys are having, it's just not being communicated yet. It's not all out there. There aren't enough people in the media who are discussing it. So the fact that you took time for me today and you do this a lot.

[D]

No, this is my first one. This is my first podcast since being in there. No, I haven't done one in like months. I don't think I've talked much about being in. I've been, I've been bashing. I don't think, I don't think I've talked about this for a while. So I had to talk and I was so great to catch up.

[B]

I'm so grateful for your time because like you said, he's working 20 hours a day over the White House along with everybody else. Close enough. But I mean that and I mean all the podcasts over the last couple of years, long before that, you were, you know, having an extra room over at the White House for yourself. But we need that. We need to hear it from people who we can identify with as a young father, growing family who just cares about your babies, your family, but also this country and how much room that we have to grow. So thank you. Keep talking. I'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it.

[D]

Thank you. The sage.