Jason Whitlock Calls Out Stephen A. Smith | Sage Steele Show | EP 83

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Sage Steele Show
Episode: Jason Whitlock Calls Out Stephen A. Smith | EP 83
Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Sage Steele
Guest: Jason Whitlock

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Episode Overview

This in-depth, lively conversation features Sage Steele interviewing Jason Whitlock—renowned and often controversial sports journalist. The discussion spans his critiques of Stephen A. Smith, authenticity in sports media, regrets about personal choices, the shifting landscape of journalism, race, faith, friendships, women in sports, and the cost of speaking out. Whitlock is unfiltered and personal, offering insights on both the sports industry and his own life decisions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Jason Whitlock vs. Stephen A. Smith

• Heat from all sides:

  • Whitlock and Stephen A. are both lightning rods for criticism in the sports media, but Whitlock feels their approaches and authenticity are drastically different.
  • Whitlock: “I don't find Stephen A's political talk authentic.” (03:36)

• Authenticity & Audience:

  • Whitlock feels Smith’s “positions…change so often” and that, unlike McAfee or Cowherd, Smith’s audience is inherited from ESPN and would not follow him elsewhere.
  • Whitlock: “When they get ready to take [the ESPN platform] away from Stephen A., it...won't exist.” (05:06)
  • Sage: “He has created some separation there with his YouTube...I give him credit for convincing them to promote his YouTube show on First Take.” (06:01)
  • Whitlock: “Without ESPN, it all goes away.” (06:29)

• Political Maneuvering:

  • Smith is described as strategic, shifting positions when it’s safe, and possibly maneuvering for a future in politics.
  • Whitlock: “His book is written as a prelude to him running for president.” (09:46)
  • Whitlock: “Yeah, I would take Stephen A. seriously as a political candidate because if he does it, if someone powerful has told him, we gotcha.” (11:13)

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2. Critique of Race, Media, and Journalism

• “Reacting vs. Driving” the conversation:

  • Whitlock laments sports media’s shift to hot takes and reaction, rather than meaningful, journalism-driven dialogue (especially around Black journalists).
  • Whitlock: “I want journalists to drive the news cycle, not someone else telling you, this is what we're talking about. Now you react to it.” (18:09)
  • Whitlock: “Most black people just...go the way the wind is blowing. If the wind and the money says be a personality, claim racism...that's what they do.” (21:41)

• Naming real journalists:

  • Whitlock provocatively singles out Candace Owens as, in his view, the only Black public figure “driving conversations,” decrying a lack of such voices in sports.
  • Whitlock: “People's heads explode when I say it...but it would be Candace Owens.” (23:18)

• Industry Changes, Double Standards, & ESPN:

  • Discussion includes ESPN’s relationship with leagues, the silencing of dissent, and the rise of identity-based rather than merit-based hiring.

  • Sage: Highlights double standards in accountability for on-air talent, notably Ryan Clark.

  • Whitlock: “Ryan Clark's the kind of black journalist that Bob Iger can support...He stirs up racial division.” (27:10)

  • Notable moment: Whitlock expresses deep regret for the trend toward “stirring up racial division” and absence of truth-driven journalism:

    • “If you're interested in bringing people together, you have to unpack the truth…We don't have that anymore.” (28:09)

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3. The Personal Cost of Speaking Out

• Regrets & Relationships:

  • Moving into a more vulnerable space, Whitlock shares his lifelong regret of not marrying or having children, fearing how his outspoken journalism would affect them.
  • Whitlock: “I did a cowardly thing and...made decisions that really, really I regret.” (37:03)
  • Sage brings empathetic perspective, noting parenthood is never perfect or safe, regardless of circumstances or race. (48:09)

• Friendship and Betrayal:

  • Whitlock details losing friendships—sometimes due to political differences, sometimes as collateral damage from his controversial stances, and sometimes out of a need to shield friends from “the heat.”
  • Whitlock: “I've definitely lost some friends...I withdraw from some people because I think that they're too unaware of what the heat around me could eventually lead to.” (57:07)
  • Sage: Discusses how getting older lessens the need for others’ approval. (66:41)

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4. Women in Sports Media—Standards, Sexism, and Debates

• Women as “eye candy”:

  • Whitlock defends his infamous “top 10 eye candy” list, sparking spirited debate about looks vs. journalistic merit and the changing expectations for women on air.

  • Whitlock: “Every show has a woman on the show. And I'm like, I can't have the discussions I want to have if there's a woman here.” (79:14)

  • He details why he opposed having certain women as co-hosts:

    • “Because she didn’t have anything to offer other than her looks. …I wanted to do a show with more substance than that.” (78:29)

  • Sage pushes back, defending professionalism and self-control as core values for both men and women in broadcast environments.

    • Sage: “It's just called professionalism...and self control, because it's not like women don’t think things too.” (80:47)

  • Both discuss the “double standard” women face in sports media regarding attractiveness and wardrobe, with Sage challenging the premise that you have to see people “who look like you” to aspire (90:50).

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5. Faith, Worldview & Legacy

• Turning Point through Faith:

  • Whitlock credits a career setback at ESPN with bringing him back to his faith, stating his grandmother’s church-rooted biblical worldview shapes him now—professionally and personally.
  • Whitlock: “After getting let go at ESPN...I was like, man, you got to get right with God. You got to change up your habits.” (101:16)
  • Whitlock: “Just someone that stood up for biblical truth and took all the heat that went along with that.” (105:08)

• Legacy as a Journalist:

  • He expresses (perhaps with some self-aware ego) that he wants to be remembered as “the boldest sportswriter ever because of his biblical worldview” (105:49).
  • Whitlock: “I've always had the same worldview. I just didn’t fully understand where it came from.” (107:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Stephen A. Smith’s authenticity:
  • “None of Stephen A's positions, in my view, are authentic. And so the heat that he catches doesn't feel authentic either. It's like that's his job.” — Jason Whitlock (03:36)
• On the platform ESPN provides:
  • “ESPN has given Stephen A. an audience. And they can take it away. When...they get ready to take it away from Stephen A., it...won’t exist.” — Whitlock (05:06)
• On personal regrets:
  • “I did a cowardly thing and...made decisions that really, really I regret.” — Whitlock (37:03)
  • “Family and kids is real wealth, not what's in your bank account.” — Whitlock (50:25)
• On standing for biblical truth:
  • “Just someone that stood up for biblical truth and took all the heat that went along with that.” — Whitlock (105:08)
• On living with controversy:
  • “I've definitely lost some friends. Yeah, I draw a level of heat that's too hot for some people, and that's why I'm not upset.” — Whitlock (57:07)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:00 | Episode Introduction: Sage previews discussion on Whitlock’s regrets, race, politics, and Stephen A. Smith
• 03:36 | Whitlock questions Stephen A. Smith’s authenticity
• 05:06 | Discussion of the power ESPN holds over its talent
• 09:46 | Whitlock claims Stephen A.’s book was written as a political launchpad
• 18:09 | Whitlock on the role of journalists: driving vs. reacting to the news
• 23:18 | Naming Candace Owens as an exception among Black journalists
• 27:10 | Critique of Ryan Clark and race division in media
• 37:03 | Whitlock describes regrets about marriage, kids, and legacy
• 50:25 | “Family and kids is real wealth...” — Whitlock on value of family
• 62:43 | Betrayal and painful loss of friends due to controversy
• 79:14 | Whitlock explains why he resisted female co-hosts for his FS1 show
• 101:16 | Whitlock’s faith journey after ESPN ouster
• 105:08 | Whitlock’s legacy: standing for biblical truth

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Tone & Style

The conversation oscillates between bracing honesty, combative media critique, and deeply personal reflection. Both hosts challenge each other—Sage provides both empathy and pushback, keeping the dialogue dynamic, self-reflective, and occasionally humorous. There are candid admissions of fault, especially from Whitlock, and spirited debate on gender, journalism, and race, all rooted in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode provides a raw, engaging look at the intersection of sports journalism, race, authenticity, and personal conviction. Whether deconstructing sports-media power brokers, laying bare personal regrets, or debating the role of women in broadcasting, Whitlock is candid and complex. The episode is as much a window into the changing face of sports media as it is a portrait of a man wrestling—often publicly—with what it means to live authentically, love honestly, and stand firm in the face of criticism.

Transcript

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[Sage Steele]

Well, love him or hate him, he is one of the all time great sports journalists and he's actually got the receipts to back it up. That's where my convo with Jason Whitlock ended and we covered a lot of space from the lack of good black journalists. He could only actually name one and you might be shocked to hear who that is. To one of the biggest regrets of his life. Not getting married, not having sex, having children. We talked about race. We talked about how his politics cost him so much. We talked about his friend Stephen A. Smith and then our disagreement about women in sports. It got kind of heated there and neither one of us held back. What a day. What a convo with my friend Jason Whitlock on this episode of the Sage Steel Show. Enjoy. You receive more hate maybe than anybody I know in our industry. And you seem to be okay with it.

[Jason Whitlock]

I'm perfectly fine with it. That's interesting though. I hadn't thought about that, but that's probably true because I tend to catch heat from both sides. And so it's like everybody's against me and then there are people that are for me. But yeah, I hadn't even thought about that. I don't even know who would be second. Well, Stephen A. Catches a lot of heat.

[Sage Steele]

Stephen A. Well, and I do think you have some similarities now to your friend Stephen A. Smith.

[Jason Whitlock]

I do, yes.

[Sage Steele]

Because you both catch heat from both sides.

[Jason Whitlock]

Mm. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't find Stephen A'S political talk. Authentic.

[Sage Steele]

No, I don't either.

[Jason Whitlock]

And so I don't know what to make of the heat he catches because I don't know why anybody would give him much heat about his political positions because they change so often. And so I get like, people like, I got a biblical worldview that doesn't move. And so I get why people, sometimes people think I'm self righteous and then they go, but, man, this guy talks about his own failures and problems and all of that. So I'm not really self righteous. But, man, you give Stephen A deals with something different than I do because I think none of Stephen A's positions, in my view, are authentic. And so the heat that he catches doesn't feel authentic either. It's like that's his job.

[Sage Steele]

Well, I think he's very strategic.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes.

[Sage Steele]

And I've said this several times that I, it's easy now to say some of the things that he's saying.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes.

[Sage Steele]

Because if you were really going to rail against the Democrats, you would have done that pre election.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes. Or, or 10 years ago or, you know, certainly during the Biden administration. And so if Biden had won or Kamala had won, what would he be saying right now? He'd be saying the same things. It's only, hey, the wind may be blowing a different direction. And so let me go with the wind where to me, it's like I'm always, I've always been swimming upstream.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. I mean, I will say, and I think I said this on your show two years ago when we sat down at your studio. You know, I've always respected him. I've respected his work ethic. Like he does work hard.

[Jason Whitlock]

Me or Stephen A.

[Sage Steele]

Not you.

[Jason Whitlock]

Oh, not me.

[Sage Steele]

I'm kidding. I agree, of course, you, of course. But no Stephen A. Because I was there. I was there when he got fired, when he got let go.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And then he humbled himself. He went away, did radio in New York, and then he came back. And what, what he has built now is pretty incredible because he has complete power. I don't know that there's anyone more powerful in sports media right now. And Stephen A. Maybe McAfee, based on salary, I would think McAfee.

[Jason Whitlock]

I think Colin Cowherd's in that realm. I, I, and just, I don't want to just sit here and beat up on Stephen A. But I, I think he's more dependent. Dependent than McAfee or even Colin Cowherd, you know, so Stephen A to me, and much like McAfee went out and built his own audience. Literally built his own audience. ESPN has given Stephen A. An audience. And they can take it away. When, when, when they get ready to take it away from Stephen A. It. It won't exist. His, his, his. And again, Colin Cowherd I think of as. As independent, McAfee independent. They have audiences that will follow them here, there, in any way. I don't believe that's true about Stephen A.

[Sage Steele]

He has created some separation there with his YouTube, which I again give him credit for convincing them to promote his YouTube show on first take. They don't get any chunk of that like he has. I think he's smart enough to know that he needs to have something else besides anything that has ESPN's name on it. And he's gotten permission to go talk politics, talk on any talk show that has nothing to do with sports.

[Jason Whitlock]

I'm not trying to simply dis Stephen A. But without espn, it all goes away.

[Sage Steele]

You don't think people follow him?

[Jason Whitlock]

No.

[Sage Steele]

Why?

[Jason Whitlock]

Because he's inauthentic. And these other people were talking about whatever problems I may have with Pat McAfee. I think he's authentic. Whatever problems I have with Cowherd, I think he's mostly authentic. And I think he's built a real audience that he has transferred from ESPN over to FS1. There's. There's a reason why Stephen A. Pretty much won't leave ESPN unless they push him out, is because he has no audience without espn. He's not interesting. And I know that sounds crazy because he has a reputation for being interesting, but no one's going to remember any positions he took. And he. He doesn't take bold stances. There's nothing, you know, yourself and Riley Gaines and Sam Ponder, people can sit around say, oh, those ladies drew a line in the sand over a specific issue and dealt with the blowback from that. That's not Stephen A. That. That's not. That's not him at all. He's done whatever is necessary to make as much money in this business as you possibly can. And hats off to him if that. That's his end game. There are people that actually do still stand for something in the media, and he's not one of those people. And that's why I think if you take the ESPN name away from him, what's he really saying that people are interested in? He's now running around pretending to be some kind of political analyst and he just spews talking points, surface level talking points. He. I watch him engage with some of These people, from Megan Kelly to any of them that actually know what they're talking about, and he doesn't say anything. And trust me, Kelly and all the people that keep putting him on their shows, if ESPN goes away, they have no interest because he's not going to say anything interesting.

[Sage Steele]

Which I think deep down maybe he knows that, and that's why he's trying to create all this. And they'll never tell him no. I mean, he has gotten to the point where it's, It's. We said this before. It's. It's the Stephen A. Rules and it's everybody else.

[Jason Whitlock]

Stephen A. And Bob Iger clearly have a special relationship, and they clearly have plans for Stephen A. To go beyond being a sports talk host or Bob Iger does. And that's why, you know, I was, after I read his book and, And I immediately started explaining, like, oh, man, there's. There's something more here. This guy wants to run for president. Someone's put this battery in his back. And so this was two and a half years ago or that I was. And people were saying I was crazy. And now no one says I'm crazy.

[Sage Steele]

Wait, I don't remember. You said that you thought Stephen A. Wanted to run for president back then.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes, two and a half years ago. Read his book. It's clear as day. His book is written as a prelude to him running for president. As soon as I read it, I was like, oh, man, this is what all these political people do. Obama and others, they all write these farce fantasy memoirs that put them in positions.

[Sage Steele]

Do you think he will?

[Jason Whitlock]

I think that's the goal.

[Sage Steele]

How would he do if he does?

[Jason Whitlock]

I would discount nothing. Seriously, I would discount nothing. I would take it very. Bob Iger and Disney are some of the most powerful forces on the planet. And Kamala Harris just ran for president and came relatively close. Joe Biden got 81 million votes. You know, they can install. Barack Obama's background is as mysterious and from out of nowhere. And yes, he talks the part or sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but they can pretty much install whoever they want in the presidency. This goes all the way back to Harry S. Truman. And so, yeah, I would take Stephen A. Seriously as a political candidate because if he does it, if someone powerful has told him, we gotcha.

[Sage Steele]

And people forget that Bob Iger was going to run for president in 2020.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And he is pretty far left. Yes, we know which party he'd be running for. And that's a great point. He would certainly help support Stephen A. Get that done. But I think that's one of the reasons why he keeps getting asked on so many shows is, yes, maybe the Iger influence. But also people are shocked that someone who works at espn, a black man who works at ESPN every once in a while says things that goes along with the right. And then people are like, oh, my gosh, what is this? Because this doesn't happen. It certainly wasn't allowed to happen before. To me, that's the reason why people are so taken by him.

[Jason Whitlock]

I think that's the aftermath of Trump is that the left has figured out, well, we got to do some of this conservative stuff or posturing. But what I think about politics is that virtually all of it is a stage. And that's why Trump was so disruptive, is that he wasn't a part of the pre planned. We're going to put Hillary in charge and we're going to usher in a full wave of feminism to American culture. Trump has put a band aid on that situation, and that's why they doubled back with Kamala. And right now they're thinking, well, we got to get a second Obama like, figure because, you know, we keep trying to put women in and it's not working. And so if you do a deep dive on Stephen A's book and the way he went after his father in his book, as opposed to what he used to say about his father in interviews, and you can go look up in the late 1990s, early 2000s, what Stephen A. Wood said about his father. No criticism at all. Mostly praise of his father. Certainly no criticism. And then he comes out with this book where he basically says he had an absentee father and he can't stand his father and it's all about his mother that's trying to put Stephen A. In the feminist lane in the support of the matriarchy lane. I don't know if it's true or not. You know, yeah, it's his story. Yeah. Who knows? But I have looked at previous interviews from the late 1990s, early 2000s, he had a completely different narrative about his dad than he does now. And so everything about Stephen A, from his college basketball career to his early career as a sports journalist, it's all been managed and assisted by forces that, you know, early on, it's like, hard for me to say, how could Bob Iger or how could. Cause they didn't even. Disney didn't even own ESPN then. But, you know, so maybe the early stuff in his journalism career was authentic. And then when he got sent away and banished from espn, I think when he came back, he came back and told, I'll do anything. And they said, okay, now we got you. Now we have you right where we want you. And he offered himself up because not being famous, he'd rather be dead. And so he's willing to do whatever. And, you know, they got a guy that they can run around and say, you know, he can pretend like he sees both sides of every issue and he's relatable to conservatives and liberals. It's a nice little gimmick that I take seriously. Most people laugh at Stephen A. And his political deal and, oh, it's harmless. I don't think it's harmless at all.

[Sage Steele]

Were you guys ever friends?

[Jason Whitlock]

I wouldn't know. Not friends. We friendly, but we were never friends. You know, I was off in Kansas City. I wasn't in the East Coast. And so, you know, we weren't. He's NBA, I'm football. And I'll tell you a story. This is when I would say we're friendly, but this is when I realized, like, man, we're really different. I was speaking down in Florida at. It's in Tampa. And I don't know why I can't think of the name of the organization, but it's a powerful journalistic, think tank type organization. I'm sorry, I can't think of the name of it. But everybody knows it in the journalism industry. I'm speaking there. There's a convention. Stephen A. Was just there as an attendee. He walks by, and so this had to be in the late 1990s. He walks by and I was like, hey, Stephen A. And come on in. I'm speaking in front of 50 people, or 75, I'm not sure. And I was like, hey, there's Stephen A. Smith. And I introduced him to the audience, and I was like, Stephen A. Say a couple words. Stephen A. Talked for, I think, 17 straight minutes. And he only stopped because I was like, hey, Stephen A. I gotta. I gotta give this speech here. And that's when I was like, wow, this guy is different. Who can talk 17 straight minutes about themselves, turn the conversation into how he's been disrespected and mistreated and faced this unbelievable racism in the industry. And I'm like, that's never been my point of view. And that's certainly not a message I would be sending to young people that. That, you know, oh, you're going to face all this terrible discrimination, blah, blah. That's not My story. That's not Stephen A story. Stephen people have bent over backwards helping Stephen A. Smith at the Philadelphia Inquirer and every place else he works. But he's standing in front of a group of young people and young journalists and telling them how he's been mistreated and faced all this racism. And this just goes on. And I was like, he's so unaware. Like, everybody know. Like, that's not my perspective. That's not my point of view. He's taken over my deal, and I'm like, I so regret it.

[Sage Steele]

Asking, yeah, you know, and he's also turned it into an incredible career, period. So there are people who say, why is Whitlock so obsessed with Stephen A. Whitlock's jealous of Stephen A. Why does Whitlock talk about him so much?

[Jason Whitlock]

Because he's important. He's running for, in my view, the presidency. He has acquired a lot of power at the most powerful sports media platform that we have here in America, espn. Stephen A. Is important, and he should be talked about. Stephen A. Is out there as a representative of what all sports journalists should be, but particularly black sports journalist. You should be loud. You should be a know it all. You should have very little actual journalistic chops. It's just if you have a personality and you can be loud and people can call you entertaining, that's what you should be. I represent something completely different. I want you to be a great journalist. I want. Instead of just reacting to the news cycle, I. I want journalists to drive the news cycle to be, hey, this is what we're talking about. Not someone else telling you, this is what we're talking about. Now you react to it. And so I. It's a poor form. It's a poor form of journalism, what he's doing. That doesn't lead to anything productive. If you don't control the conversation, rather than reacting to the conversation, you end up talking about dumb things that are insignificant. You end up talking about. And this is. They don't let. And I'm talking about, this is. In all forms of media in America, they never let black people define the conversation. They let black people react to the conversation that they have defined. That's why they'll sit there and say, police are just out randomly killing black people. React to that. And so everybody gives a performance on that. And everyone starts. And it's like, we know it's not the truth, but, hey, this is our lane. We get to come on TV and complain every time a black criminal gets killed. That's our Job. We can get paid. We'll get on cnn, we'll get on all the news networks. We. Whereas a journalist wants to define the conversation to start. Okay, well, here's what's really crippling. Hurting, making black people struggle. The collapse of the black family structure. Let's have that conversation. And that's what. If you go back to 2013, 14, when I was back at the Undefeated, this is why.

[Sage Steele]

Which was at espn.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, at espn. This is why there was such a problem with me. If you go look at the little bit of journalism they allowed us to do, it's all about defunct. We redefined the way people think of Charles Barkley. If you go look at the story that Jesse Washington wrote and I edited and conceived, it was about redefining Charles Barkley and getting people to understand why. Why does Charles Barkley say these conservative things so consistently? Well, he grew up in Alabama, and the whole area in Alabama was dominated by Booker T. Washington. And he has a Booker T. Washington mentality coming out of Alabama. And we tied it all together. Charles Barkley told me this. But anybody. It's the best piece of journalism that's ever been done on Barkley. They don't want black people doing that.

[Sage Steele]

Who's they?

[Jason Whitlock]

The power structure. The Bob Igers, the Leslie Moonves.

[Sage Steele]

Like, all the people at the top of all that.

[Jason Whitlock]

At the very top. It's not our. We're entertainers. That's. And we're supposed to come on TV and be emotional and call white people racist. That's like our job. And make people laugh. But to act, actually address real issues. No. No dice. That's not what. That's not what you're here for. And so most black people just. They go the way the wind is blowing. If the wind. And the money says, be a personality, claim racism, and that will keep you in good stead. That's what they do. And I wanted to completely disrupt that. And if you look at the Undefeated after they remove me and the work that they've produced over the past five or six, seven years, they've produced no work that's driven the conversation.

[Sage Steele]

Does it even exist?

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, it still exists.

[Sage Steele]

They renamed it.

[Jason Whitlock]

What's it called?

[Sage Steele]

Something else. Andscape and scape.

[Jason Whitlock]

Which means.

[Sage Steele]

What the hell does that mean? Right.

[Jason Whitlock]

Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[Sage Steele]

Well, okay, listen, I think you make so many fair points. This is the problem with you is you always make me think deeper than I wanted. No, I love it. And who are black journalists right now? Sports news. Are there any in particular that you think are being actual journalists versus just reacting.

[Jason Whitlock]

I'm going to make people's heads explode when I say it because they're not a traditional journalist. But it would be Candace Owens. And so, but she's driving conversations. She's making people react, think about the news in a different way.

[Sage Steele]

She's using sources. Yes, yes, you're so right.

[Jason Whitlock]

It's. And so, But Endscape or whatever that they do none of that.

[Sage Steele]

Anyone in sports black?

[Jason Whitlock]

No. And, and I don't mean that as an insult, but. No.

[Sage Steele]

Who are white journalists who are doing that in sports?

[Jason Whitlock]

In sports it would be. There's a handful of guys that used to work at ESPN now have smaller. You know, it's like. But to some degree it's been eliminated because like, ESPN's hired Dan Wetzel, but he has no real profile there. He, he, he's not, you know, ESPN's just moved away from that type of journalism. They're in bed with the league, so you're not going to challenge anything. You're not going to go off script. And so they got some. Liz Merrill still works there. I, I think I just saw her do something interesting. But again, nothing that really challenges any of the popular narratives. Wright Thompson is still there and occasionally he'll do a long profile, but again, they're not as prominent as they used to be. Remember, he did the Michael Jordan piece a few years ago and it really, you know, I think he did something maybe on Tiger woods, but those are few and far between. Now. We just, we, we do know you're making a great point in terms of. It's not just black journalists that they've limited and put in a lane. It's, it's. The whole system is built around just covering fluff and yeah, it, and this is why I'm critical of espn because they are the worldwide leader and they've gotten in bed with the NFL and all the sports leagues and gambling companies and no one's rocking the boat, period. End of story. Maybe the athletic does some occasional things for the New York Times. Yeah, but, but Pablo Torre here recently has been rocking the boat with the Clippers. Yeah, the, the Clippers. The Clippers story. And then didn't he just had one about Bill Belichick? Yeah, and, and his girlfriend and what, what in the greatest.

[Sage Steele]

He's a former ESPN person who's left.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, right. Pablo's a journalist, wants to be a journalist.

[Sage Steele]

He always has been.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, Pablo is a legitimate. But everybody else, it was like, I was the oddball, by the way, once.

[Sage Steele]

Pablo got away from Bomani as much as their best friends, but. Or maybe they're not, but they certainly had that show together for a long time. That was forced.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And then he went off on his own. And I've always respected him and thought that he did good work. You know, I do. It's well documented, the double standard that exists there with their analysts, with anyone that's on TV that's black versus white. Ryan Clark, obviously, is probably the most obvious example of late who has crossed so many inappropriate lines and issued so many apologies, but is still propped up. What do you attribute that to? The fear that really, I think, totally changed the trajectory of this country that began, really, in 2020. George Floyd.

[Jason Whitlock]

No, I'm gonna sound like a broken record, and I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but Ryan Clark's the kind of black journalist that Bob Iger can.

[Sage Steele]

Support, but he's not a journalist. He's an analyst.

[Jason Whitlock]

Gotcha. He's the kind of analyst Bob Iger could support. He's the kind of talking head. He stirs up racial division. He doesn't point to a greater truth that leads to racial harmony. And he. I don't. Ryan claims a Christian faith, but you can't see it in his behavior on espn. And again, there's a clinging to truth that should be pervasive in all of journalism and certainly journalism platforms. But it also, if you're interested in. In bringing people together, you have to unpack the truth. So, you know, Thomas Jefferson said that, you know, he'd rather have newspapers so that people, voters, citizens could learn the truth and then react to that truth and make decisions based on a truth that's unpacked through journalism. We don't have that anymore. And so. And we've hired people for big checks that are perfectly fine, you know, stirring up racial division. Stirring up racial. I mean, Ryan Clark. And I've prayed for Ryan Clark in private, I really have. And I'm not saying that to score any points, because I don't like Ryan Clark. And so. But when I. I think of him being a former athlete and how much football brings people together.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jason Whitlock]

Over racial differences. Over all kinds of differences. One guy may like country music, the other game like R B, but you come together in a football locker room and to go on TV and pretend. Because he's pretending, he knows this. He's played a lot of football and seen a lot of guys come together in pursuit of a goal and get over their little petty Differences. But to go on TV and to racialize all of these discussions the way that he does and make everybody sit around and talk about, is the quarterback black or white? Is he the right kind of black quarterback? Is he authentically black? It's insane. It's absolutely insane. And then to sit there and have been involved with some white woman that he had a baby with, that he knows he's got a half white child out there and a half black child, and to be that unfair and that divisive, it's really sickening. And the fact that ESPN tolerates it or promotes it says a lot about espn.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, that's unfortunately one of the many reasons why they've lost credibility. And it breaks my heart. And I've said this before and I always will because I'm grateful for all 16 and a half years there. I honestly wouldn't change a thing. Because that's based on faith too, right? Where the journey leads to today. And we wouldn't be able to even have this conversation. But people don't go there for that. They don't go there for division, frankly. They go there for experts like Ryan who've been places that you and I have not on NFL fields and NFL locker rooms, et cetera, to break it down for us in ways that we want to understand. And that's where it makes me sad that not only he and many others have chosen that route, but that the network has not just allowed it, but encouraged it. I think that's one thing to have your opinions on football that we might disagree with. Fine. You played in college. You have certainly more perspective than I do. I think when we bring in these social issues and then don't know the facts and don't choose to educate ourselves for two minutes before those cameras go on to make sure that you have the facts right, that's where it gets ugly. And to another level, whether it's Ryan, whether it's LeBron James in the past, Mina Kimes, like, you name it, the list is very long. But there's no accountability for it.

[Jason Whitlock]

There's no executive at espn. And, you know, I guess I'm. Dave Roberts is their top black executive. He's not qualified or comfortable or in position to tell any of the black employees, like, hey, you've gone too far. This isn't fair. He's no sort of expert on this. He was a radio executive that has risen to a lot of power. He and Stephen A. Have risen to a lot of power. And so all the real people and real journalists have been Marginalized at espn. And that marginalization, we shouldn't be surprised about it. It's probably always been on that course, but they're just winging it as it relates to race. And someone should just say, hey, cut it out here at newspapers, what used to happen is you would have. Wouldn't maybe not be called this, but they. We'd have a race writer or someone that covered racial issues and that was their area of expertise, and they covered these things. And other people like, nope, you do high school sports. Nope. You write about the University of Missouri. Nope, you do this. You do. But now it's everybody. Twitter has done this to where everybody thinks they're an expert on these issues, and they have. And they're talking about really, really serious issues with no information. I go back to remember the Duke volleyball player, Rachel. Somebody just got to BYU or went out to byu. They said call it N word and blah, blah. And it was so crystal clear. And then when Don Staley jumped on board, next thing you know, Stephen A. And maybe. And I like Marcus Spears, but I think Marcus Spears jumped in on it and it just. And they just trashed unknown students at byu. And the thing was bs.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. And no one came back after to correct it.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes. And so if you have experience, like, because from the moment I was like, man, this don't make sense. Are you kidding me? There's phones everywhere. It's byu. No one's going to an arena and just yelling crazy things at some black volleyball player, even if they are racist. They're smarter than that.

[Sage Steele]

Right.

[Jason Whitlock]

And so for no one at ESPN to be able to tell people like, man, now we're going to stay away from this. But they don't have anybody that wants to play that role. Because if you play that role, you're called an Uncle Tom in a sellout and you're not popular in the cafeteria. And people then start saying, well, I don't want to go on air with that person because they got the wrong opinion about this or that.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Who might you be referring to with that one?

[Jason Whitlock]

And literally, like, if they were going to be an expert on it, it would actually be the mother that has mixed race kids. It would actually be she's more qualified than the guy who seems to be ashamed of his half white kid.

[Sage Steele]

Wow. Yes.

[Jason Whitlock]

Than the mother who loves her kids in full.

[Sage Steele]

Loudly.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Mayra Ameth]

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[Sage Steele]

Tara is a mochi member, compensated for her story. You know, I think at some point that's the definition of insanity. When I keep saying but, but, but when, wait, wait. When you know, like, you know what the result is gonna be. You know, these people don't have the balls in many instances to speak the truth. So at some point that's on me or you or us for giving them credit enough to think that they might do the right thing. Like that ship has sailed. And I think especially because when people see what happens when you do tell the truth, I mean, you are a great example of that. I am in different ways. Samantha Ponder, Riley Gaines. Like, we all know why people stay silent. And I say to them a lot, like, I get it, it is smarter in many ways. But it depends on what your standards are. And that's where I try not to crush people as much as I probably was who aren't standing up for women's sports and making sure men stay out. Like, let's talk about common sense.

[Jason Whitlock]

That's a real easy one.

[Sage Steele]

I don't understand. Well, of course it is, and that's why I've. But I do know these people who live in fear. Even though we're a couple years into this further and it's so much more obvious. But if the leadership, the people who are writing those checks and giving you those contracts has made it clear that they don't like when we're being honest. You have a decision to make. And most people make their decision. I try not to blame them, but it doesn't mean I don't respect them.

[Jason Whitlock]

I'll admit that for me, where I've gone is a lot of these. I have to give them grace because they're not in the position I'm in in terms of, hey, look, I don't have kids, I don't have a wife. If they cancel me, I'm good. And, and I don't have to sit there because again, you know, I've been very honest with you. I don't know if you want me to go here, but you said you don't care. I would be married and have mixed race kids if I had just done what I wanted to do. And you know, there's two women that I should have married in My life. And I didn't do it because I was petrified of having mixed race kids. I was petrified of my dad and his reaction. And so, you know, I did a cowardly thing and, you know, did it. Made decisions that really, really I regret.

[Sage Steele]

But can I, can I. We talked about this when I was on your show and I wrote these words down that you used because it broke my heart then and it broke my heart again to listen to it two years later. Yeah. You said I totally undermined and destroyed relationships because I didn't want to deal with, with the hassle, the hassle of interracial kids, biracial kids, and what comes with that. You said they were the best relationships that you've ever had. How have you continued to deal with that? When you say the word regret like that, that's heavy because your life would be very different.

[Jason Whitlock]

It's very different. It's very heavy. It's, you know, it's the. Everybody makes mistakes in their lives. This is my big, horrible mistake that I wish I hadn't made because it just. I'm not. I should have kids. I'd have been a great father. I wanted to have kids. I wanted, I wanted that. But I was, I knew what I was going to do as a journalist at a very young age. I knew what type of person I was at a very young age. And then once I went into journalism, I knew, like, man, I'm here to speak some really hardcore truths about race. And I didn't want my kids or my wife to suffer the consequences of that.

[Sage Steele]

Now, is that the reason that you came to understand before or after you got over the white part of it? You know, because the journalistic part of it and how your job's going to affect them is one thing, but it seems like the first thing was that she was white and you were black. And your family might not have liked it.

[Jason Whitlock]

Certainly my family, but more than anything, because my family will tell you, like, when Jason makes a decision, he don't care. He. It's not that I don't care about him, because I do care about him, but I'm not. No, I was mostly concerned about I'm going to have kids and my kids are going to go to school and they're going to get called names because of the things that I write and the things that I stand for. And I just. My childhood was so amazing. So amazing that. And we were poor and, you know, but my childhood was so amazing. I didn't have to deal with that. I didn't want to put that burden on my children. And then I also didn't. You know, the women I'm talking about, they would sit there and be like, are you kidding me? I would have handled that. You know, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but I didn't want them to have to deal with. I didn't want their family to have to deal with. I love my brother virtually more than anything person in the world. We kind of look alike. He's three years older than me. He carries. Obviously we carry the same last name. He gets questioned about me all the time. And every time I hear about it, it cuts, it hurts. And it's not my brother. No shame of me. And, you know, my brother's my best friend in life, but I just think about what I do and how it impacts him and it hurts. But there's some truth that I feel like God put me on this earth to speak on and I'm going to do it. And I'm just trying to minimize the complications for others.

[Sage Steele]

And so even those people who loved you with all that, I mean, yes, these women, it sounds like, knew your dreams and loved you anyway, and you, you pushed them away.

[Jason Whitlock]

I certainly now, yes, there's no question about it that I did that. Other things now, I was an idiot in some degree. And let's don't leave out the 25% of me that was just an idiot. That, yes, there was always that underlying thing about, man, I really don't want to get married because it's going to really complicate her life, kids life. But there was also just the idiot in me in terms of, like, man, I like a big booty and a loose woman and, you know, I. Couple of girls that I let hang around way too long that also. So my stupidity contributed to it as well. But, yeah, I mostly didn't want the hassle of, you know, me and my dad were close and my dad was racist, but not just. Yeah, he was racist. Love my. My dad was great, though. I love my dad. He's dead now. My mother would have dealt with it, but trust me, you know, she's like any black mother. She wants her child to marry someone that looks like her and. Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Was that more, you think the mom and dad part? No, it wasn't.

[Jason Whitlock]

No. Because I love my parents. Yeah, I'll draw a line in the sand with my parents and they. My dad's passed, but they both know that it's, you know, I read enough of the Bible and I'll. I'll you know, Jesus didn't come here to bring us all together. He was. He came with a sword. And so I can't put it on my parents. It's just me. And just. I got this weird thing about kids that I just want them to have the joy that I had. And I'm talking about all kids. And you could. You know, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but you can go talk to young kids that I've. Dante Love is a kid that broke his neck at Ball State playing football in 2008. He. He comes from virtually nothing. He's a great football player. He was headed to the NFL. He breaks his neck at Indiana University in 2008 again, a game against them. I go to the hospital and. And that night, and I made him a pledge. Dude, I got you. From here on out, you're not going to play professional football. But me and you are going to be friends, and I'm going to help you transition into the rest of your life. He recovered and looks normal and moves normal and all that other stuff. But I've been with this guy since 2008. He just got married a month ago. Wow. He's got three great kids. He did the kids first, but he married the woman. He's got three great kids. He's got a great job. His wife's got a great job. And I just wanted him to experience things that I experienced. And, you know, I got a cousin named Josh that grew up really rough. Really rough. He moved in with me for two years in Kansas City, and it went well, and then it went poor. He thought I was too hard on him, and he went back to Indianapolis. Then he got in trouble and had to go to jail. He just got married a month ago. He's got one kid. He just married a great woman. He made it. And there's been. I could rattle off young people that I've helped or tried to help and be an asset to. I just got a weak spot for kids because I think we've done things here in this society to compromise the kind of joy and optimism that I had when I was growing up. And we've complicated things in a way that I just feel like, man.

[Sage Steele]

And that's a long time ago where you even said that.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes. I mean.

[Sage Steele]

Cause it's one thing today where it's obviously, it is scary to bring kids into the world. You know, I'm sad only because you say you regret it. There's many people out there who are like, no, I'm good. I Never wanted kids. Great. So I'm not sad for them. But since you say you have a regret, I am sad because I do think someone with your common sense, strength, fearlessness, fearless name of the show and just the way that you have this love that I don't think most people. It's not what you usually talk about on your show every day. Right. I know you touch on this topic and other things. I think people are always surprised to see the softer side of Jason Whitlock. But that's why I'm sad is because you would have been a great dad and those kids would have been so blessed to have you because of all those things that really are not as common.

[Jason Whitlock]

Let me say that because this is the other issue that maybe you could speak to. The other fear I had is that I ran into so many mixed kids my own age that have this racial confusion.

[Sage Steele]

Yes.

[Jason Whitlock]

And it's like if I had had kids with a white woman and my kid had ever come home talking about Black Lives Matter, I might have fallen over and died. Like, are you. What did I do here? And that's. I see so many mixed race kids trying to have this black moment.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, I do, too. And whatever that means. How do you define a black moment?

[Jason Whitlock]

I agree. Because I. Yeah, I want them to have Christian moments.

[Sage Steele]

Thank you.

[Jason Whitlock]

But this world is rigged to make them think being black means my pants gotta be hanging off my rear and I'm a victim. Yes. And that would be my other. It's like if my kids had some sort of racial confusion. I wanted to avoid that.

[Sage Steele]

I have heard that so many times and I've seen TV shows about it where it's not fair to the kid and I'm not going to do that. And it's like, to me, it's a cop out, probably because I'm only alive because me and my parents and you know the story from back in the, in 1970-71 when this was really not popular to, you know, marry outside of your race. So, yeah, I'm sensitive to it because nothing's easy anymore. Nothing is easy, period. Does this make it maybe another level of difficult? I guess. But even when you have all white, all black, whatever, and you lead together as Christian parents, Jewish parents, whatever it is. Right. Wrong. Morals, values, discipline, love, accountability, all those things, your kids are still gonna make mistakes. And sometimes those mistakes are really big and you pray that they're not. We've experienced that. And I have the best parents who literally, I would probably, as a parent now of three young adults I mean, my parents did a better job than I did, so. And there were still decisions that we made that were really costly. So I think it's not fair, unfair to narrow it down to, okay, if I do this to them with a white mama, they're screwed. Do we see it publicly a lot with the Kaepernicks of the world? Yeah. Did I experience it myself? I mean, hi, at ESPN or everyday on social media? You're not black enough. Remember what happened with Elle Duncan and Michael Eves?

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And she shouldn't be on that show about race and sport around the George Floyd, because I'm not accepted by the real black community. What is that? Define it. Define what? Being black enough is. They can kiss my butt. Like, I don't, I don't care. It's actually racist to make comments like that. So I don't know, I just. There's no such thing as perfect. Even when everything is lined up on a silver platter for you, there's just not. And you would have been great.

[Jason Whitlock]

The other thing that I think that I did is in my 20s, 30s, I saw my career as my life purpose. And now at my age, I was like, man, this career is great, but there's something so much more amazing than having an amazing career and making a lot of money. And so that was the other mistake that I made, is that, you know, family and kids is real wealth, not what's in your bank account, what kind of house you live in, what kind of summer house. You know, that's not real wealth. And so total miscalculation, misread, you know, you grow.

[Sage Steele]

So how do you. How do you. That sounds dramatic and I don't mean it to be, but how do you live with that? Because that is a huge regret.

[Jason Whitlock]

You just, for me, you just like, you remember Paul in the Bible and he wasn't married and he devoted his life to Jesus Christ. And now it's probably rougher for me than Paul, but maybe not. I lived such a worldly life for a long time. And so again, you develop habits and things you get enjoyment from that maybe aren't the most Christian. And so, I don't know, you just, you know, you focus on other things. You focus what I focused on, you know, I think my friends, you know, my guy friends from Ball State or even high school would tell you, like, man, Whitlock's incredible to my kids. They all call him Uncle Jason and blah, blah. And so you just start pouring into other people's kids. You start pouring into your sister's kids, your brother's kids, you know, and so.

[Sage Steele]

That's huge.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

That's a blessing.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah. Your friend's kids again, I'm telling. I think that you'd have to. They'll be here this weekend. I got a housewarming party going on. But you know, these guys, their kids all love me because how do you spoil them? Money. I mean, that's what kids, you know.

[Sage Steele]

Got any extra Uncle Jason?

[Jason Whitlock]

You just, you know. And again, like, some of them maybe I've only met once or twice really. But, you know, when they graduate, Uncle Jason's coming through or just on a rant them. It's like with my friends, I don't do anything nice for them. I do nice things for their kids. And so. Or, you know, maybe I might do something nice for their wives. But mostly it's just their kids and. And so it's just random acts of kindness just out of.

[Sage Steele]

That feels good. That's. There's not enough of that. I mean, that's huge.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Who are your best friends?

[Jason Whitlock]

The guys I played football with at Ball State. There's about seven of us that are in a text thread pretty much every day. And then even some guys that are not in a text thread. But my high school. My best friend from high school, a guy named Willie Clark. My brother is my best friend, you know, Dante the kid, the Ball State football player. Because Dante's got to be 35, 36 now. Guys, I work with TJ Mo, John Hadley. We got this young kid named Luke. I don't. I want. Luke's another Luke's thing. Started working for us when he's 20. He's 22 now. And, you know, he had some issues that our environment has helped a lot. It's like his mother was in town last week and brought me some homemade baked bread. It's like one of the most amazing things. And so I've met his mom, met his dad, and they're so appreciative of the environment that we have with Fearless, that it's helped their son work through some issues and mature. And so, you know, Tiffany, my assistant, you know, she talks too much, but I love her. Love her to death. You know, I got some friends here that I don't see often enough. But, you know, I met Tiffany through Steve Ford, the guy who owns Winners and Losers or Losers and Duck Blind and just. I got a lot of friends, good friends. But I'm a quiet guy that, you know, my friends complain that, you know, I don't talk enough. I Don't call or, you know, you know, I'm a quiet, I'm a. I'm more laid back than I appear on camera. You know, when the camera comes on, I'll do my thing, but after that, I just kind of like to chill.

[Sage Steele]

I feel like you're protective of your friends, too.

[Jason Whitlock]

Without question. Because they take a lot of heat, the people that, you know. My friends and, you know, because most of these guys, not all, but most of these guys are black guys. And, you know, they hear from other black. You friends with Whitlock or. They, they, they have to spend some time defending me. And so I don't. Yeah, I don't like to. My brother, he can't do nothing about it. He's got my name, he looks like me. But the, the. Yeah, I, I, but my friends will say they don't need protection. And because one take, like Willie Clark, you know, he's kind of. It's not that he agrees with everything I said, but he's kind of gotten defiant about like. You got a problem with Whitlock? What do you mean? What's he done? And this is cr. You can disagree with him, but there's nothing you can say he's done that would. And you know, what kind of a friend he's been to me and a bunch of other people and blah, blah. You think Whitlock doesn't like black people? You know, what he's done with my kids or what, you know, this is what all my friends say. Like, you really the guy that my kids swear by, that, you know.

[Sage Steele]

So those are real friends.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

You know, I mean, have you, have you lost.

[Jason Whitlock]

I've definitely lost some friends. I've definitely lost some friends. Yeah. I draw a level of heat that's too hot for some people, and that's why I'm not upset. And then I withdraw from some people because I think that they're too unaware of what the heat around me could eventually lead to. And they're just too unaware. And so I just keep them at a safe distance so they don't have anything to talk about because I've been burned by guys that I think are good friends of mine that just don't know what they don't know. And so they'll be somewhere talking about me. And then the next thing I know, someone that hates me is talking about me through them. You know, I hate to say it because it'll probably. He'll probably see it and get. But like, someone was at a barbershop somewhere with Corey Holcomb. Talking about me. This was years ago. And talk. And my. This was back when I was more worldly and they were. Corey Holt. They were in a conversation with Corey Holcomb. Oh, yeah, Woodlock's my friend. We went to Ball State together and blah, blah, blah. Next thing I know, Corey Holcomb doesn't like me. We used to be cool, but he doesn't like. Next thing I know, he's on his show talking about me and talking about what this friend of mine inadvertently said about me or told him about me. And, and so I just, there's. And you know this. Probably not to the degree that I do, but there's complications with being friends with people that are under attack. And most people just aren't aware. They just think, oh, well, this is just like it was when we were in high school. This is like it was when we were in college. I was like, nah, it ain't really like that. Did you see Charlie Kirk get killed? Do you see the people that this system that we've created, this very corrupt system, we're making millionaires out of absolute nut jobs, idiots who believe in violence. We're giving. We're turning over power to them. We've made Matt Barnes a shot caller in the media space. Guy's a nut. He's a. And an idiot. Stephen Jackson, a nut and an idiot. And somehow the system has decided that those guys are industry leaders and people that, you know, we should be building up platforms and making them the standard. It's, you know, that's one of the reasons I moved to Tennessee and that's one of the reasons why I move the way that I do. I saw the couple of weeks ago, Joy Taylor was on someone's show talking trash about me and talking about. She gave off some indications like that her. Somebody has been tracking me and. And she's an idiot that's attached to other idiots. And again, but it's like, no, I moved to Tennessee for a reason. We can all carry guns. And if you come in my house, no one's going to bat an eye if I kill you. It won't even be. It won't be no George Zimmerman situation down here. And so it, it, you know, it just, it is what it is.

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[Sage Steele]

Two things. Do you worry about your safety in general?

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes and no. But not really. Just because I feel confident that God is protecting me and if it's my time to go, it's just my time to go. But no, I don't, I don't spend a lot of time wearing, but I do spend a. You know, I don't move the way I used to. I used to love to be standing over a craps table in Las Vegas, very accessible to the world. I used to love to walk the Las Vegas strip. I used to love to go to strip clubs and be at them until 3 and 4am in the morning. I don't do any of that. Most of that's out of religious conviction, but it's also like, nah, I can't be moving where the idiots move because I'm not an idiot.

[Sage Steele]

Definitely not an idiot. I will agree. Listen, you are as tough as nails. You've got a really thick skin and you're still human and you have more of a heart than you probably want people to know about or that they have been able to see because of the kind of clips that go viral, et cetera. How much of those attacks, the losses of friendship, the words that people that you really have poured into and then they've used against you. How much of that has hurt?

[Jason Whitlock]

Some of it has hurt in terms of you befriend people, you help people.

[Sage Steele]

And.

[Jason Whitlock]

You know, It's disappointing because you can I trust this person. You never know who you can trust. I'll give the example of the young kid that used to work at Deadspin, Greg Howard, that wrote the long hit pieces on me for Dead Spin. I was nothing but nice to that kid. He, he wrote some article that said he was in a hospital bed and I yelled and screamed at him. He was on his deathbed. Well, and I called him and I was like, greg, I have the email. Let me read it back to you. The email you sent to me thanking me for how nice I was to you when you were in the hospital. How could you write this story? And you know, he didn't have a good answer other than, you know, they made me or they forced me or you know, blah blah, blah. But yeah, you go through. And it's not that me and Greg Howard Were close. I'm not even sure if I was ever. Yeah, I don't think. I was never in a room with him, but we were friends over the. He was a young guy in Jerusalem looking for insight advice from me, help up the ladder. And then I could. You know, I'm not going to call this name because I think it's what they're looking for, but a very good friend of mine in the journalism business that climbed way up high in the journalism business because of me, and I would help them write their pieces. I gave them a job. And I've read things that this person has said about me and I'm like, holy cow, man. I used to sit at his house and talk with him and his wife and his kids about their kids, and I would talk in private with him about things that were going on with him and his wife. And this is what he has to say about me. It's all because he's left wing and I'm perceived to be right wing, but I'm really just a Christian. So. Yeah, it'll shake your trust and confidence and make you again. That's why I value my friends from high school, my friends from college so much. They've been with me from the get go. They understand me and they've been hearing me say things that are considered crazy ever since I was 5, 15, 16, 17 years old. But yeah, it has. The betrayals have hurt and I just had. Now I will say on a positive note, one of my best friends from Kansas City, that's pretty hardcore left wing, he quit speaking to me and he just circled back about a month ago.

[Sage Steele]

Really?

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah. And I introduced him to his wife.

[Sage Steele]

Wow.

[Jason Whitlock]

And we kind of.

[Sage Steele]

What did he say?

[Jason Whitlock]

Just he wanted to reconnect the friendship and that he missed me. And I was, hey, man, I miss you too. And you know, I appreciate you calling, but, you know, we probably went five years without speaking. He just quit talking to me over Trump. You know, it's. It's.

[Sage Steele]

Have you ever considered, through all the ups and downs, have you ever considered toning it down a little bit?

[Jason Whitlock]

No, no, I can't because. Let me take it. Maybe I have, but I just can't. It's not in me. And if you, like, if my mother were sitting here or my brother, they could tell you, like, things I was saying at 8, 9 years old.

[Sage Steele]

You've always been this way.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes, that, like, this is just who I am.

[Sage Steele]

But when people come after you, and then more importantly, when it costs friendships or relationships, because for me, that's when I have sometimes been like, oh, gosh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then you run away and you try to fix it. And then it's like, you know, when you're. When you want to be liked.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

You know, all these things that then that's one of the beauties of getting older. When you're. When you have a five in front of your age, you're like, okay, you don't want to be my friend because of my opinion. Goodbye.

[Jason Whitlock]

There is a lot of being old people. It really is that. Because old people just don't care.

[Sage Steele]

No. Doesn't mean we lose that humanity, that part of us. But it's like, okay, if I thought our friendship was deeper, I thought our relationship was deeper and our history mattered more. And so I think the realization maybe initially stings, and then you say, okay, next. That friendship was for a season or whatever. I feel like you've done that a lot.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, I've definitely. But I've definitely had to do that. I would. But. But again, there's a group, you know, Todd Fennell, my roommate in college all five years, and there's a group around us. Ralph Wise and Tim Walden and Stan Young. And I've been friends with these guys since 1985. Chuck Kelly, I think, came in 1986. Frank Barnes came in 1986. There's been a group that, again, since 1986, we've been 85, 86. We've been friends, and it's been unshakable. And so there's been some turnover for sure. But I can. Honestly, it's just like my friend from Kansas City that I was talking about, I don't care that he's left wing. Our friendship was. And he actually said this, it was, we love sports and love talking about sports, and we used to love chasing women together. He's married now, and so that was. But we had a friendship that was, you know, to me, I thought was unbreakable, even through the disagreements over politics. And, you know, from my perspective, he may have a different take on it than I do. But, you know, he gave up on the friendship. He just couldn't. He couldn't understand why I didn't hate Trump. And I would always be like, how could I hate Trump? You know, first of all, you know me as well as anybody. I really don't care that much about politics. And then two, I would be like, what has Trump done that I haven't done? All the things they're accusing Trump of, I was like. And so when I was hanging out at Diamond Joe Strip club, what was I doing that Trump hasn't done? When I was, when we would take. We used to go, this dude went to the ESPYs with me twice. And you know, what did we do on those ESPY trips or at the bachelor parties that I threw or that Trump hasn't done? You just got to come up with something stronger than, you know, Trump's a bad guy. Because I'm like, Trump talks like my father talks, like my uncle talks like the guys that I loved at my dad's bar, the Masterpiece Lounge, that catered only to older, you know, 40 to 50 year old black men. That working class guys, they all talk sounded like Trump. They all had the same philosophy on chasing women is Trump, you know. And so I like my mother, she can't stand Trump. And I'm like, how's he different than Uncle John? And my uncle is her brother and it was her favorite person on the planet. She has no answer for.

[Sage Steele]

Well, most of them don't, which is why I think your friend runs away. And so many people shut you down because there's not an argument. They just are told not to like him and they don't like the way he talks, which is what's different. Stephen A. Admitted was his sole reason, his primary reason for not voting for Trump but voting for com was because I don't like the way he says things like people need to just get over themselves, but they run from the actual facts, which is policies, right? What he's doing, what he's not accepting for.

[Jason Whitlock]

Stephen A. Who says, and at least as a journalist, he's got some locker room experience. He says he was some sort of athlete. And this is why I question all these athletes from LeBron and everybody else. I was like, y' all been in locker rooms your whole life and you think Trump, oh, Trump's a president, so he should talk different than I do inside of a locker room. Cuz he. Everything Trump has said sounds like what gets said in a locker room.

[Sage Steele]

And I do agree that there's a line of being presidential that things they're accusing him of.

[Jason Whitlock]

He wasn't president when he said these things.

[Sage Steele]

I agree. But with Stephen A. And many millions of people, they have a problem with just how he talks in general, how he tweets, let's be more presidential. So I mean, we're gonna compare him to Uncle Johnny. Maybe at the end of the day, to me, I can, I can ignore all that. Crap. Because I'm thinking more about who is the best leader for our country.

[Jason Whitlock]

I would rather have mean tweets.

[Sage Steele]

Correct.

[Jason Whitlock]

Than anything else. Hold for a second because I don't want to get you in hot water. Oh, wait, you may not want to be connected to what I'm about to say.

[Sage Steele]

Start over. Rewind.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, I would rather have mean tweets than same sex marriage.

[Sage Steele]

Okay, rewind.

[Jason Whitlock]

So Barack Obama ushered in basically same sex marriage that after saying that a.

[Sage Steele]

Marriage should be between a man and a woman. He said that first.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes. And so that, to me, is more problematic than anything Trump has tweeted or said about anybody. Whether it's Rosie o', Donnell, whether it's. I can't. Fannie Willis, whether it's. I don't know who, what's the woman that's in trouble. Letitia James. Is that right?

[Sage Steele]

Oh, the ag.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, I'd rather deal with that than the ramifications of same sex marriage. I'd rather Trump is responsible for the end of Roe v. Wade. I like that.

[Sage Steele]

I do, too.

[Jason Whitlock]

So I do too. I'd rather have that than Obama speaking well polished, or Hillary, whatever she represents, or Kamala or Joe Biden. It's the things I get from Trump and the things that I get from Trump, what most people don't have the ability to do. And even Christian. It's like I'm sitting there saying, what does God think about this? Because the things that I want aren't good. The things that Jason Whitlock wants are not good. I've had to acknowledge that. And so I evaluate everything through, hey, is this good for God? And so when I look at the end of abortion, I say, oh, it's good for God. And I look at. And this will be controversial for not you, but the audience. Anything that moves us away from dei. And I think that's a good thing. I think God isn't sitting there playing little racial games and trying to put quotas in, blah, blah, blah. He wants all of us. He sees us all the same. He's not. He's not sitting there. Well, Trump's a different shade of brown than Jason. And she's not sage, isn't as white as Tiffany. He's not doing any of that. And politics, and particularly left wing politics makes you do all that. And I don't like it. I reject it. I'm not in politics for what's good for me. I'm trying to evaluate it through. Does this move us towards what God wants? And I just don't think The Democrats give any thought to that. It's all about, hey, what's in it for me? And some people will listen and say, well, Jason, you know, you got a lot of money, look at that house you live in. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's why you don't care about what's in it for you. And I'm talking, even when I was poor and I used to be poor, I didn't look at the world that way. And if anybody would evaluate my life, when you're bringing your 16 year old cousin into your home in Kansas City, when you got the world by the tail, that wasn't about me, that was about man, I think God wants you to do this. Josh is a great kid. You know, I wanted his sister as well to move in. Chisa and Josh, I can remember when they both, my cousin had them and when they came out of the womb, I was there and was like, I got you. And so the things I did for them, it wasn't about me. And that's. We've turned politics into. And particularly Christians, many Christians have turned politics. What's in it for me? And our whole life should be what's in it for God. And then he'll provide.

[Sage Steele]

I want to end on your Christianity and your faith before we do that. This is one thing that I don't know if it bothers me or not still, but when you put out, and I think it was two years ago, your top 10 greatest sports eye candy.

[Jason Whitlock]

And television history, that's in the last few months.

[Sage Steele]

That's more recent.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Your eye candy list.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, that was recently. Someone did something that triggered that.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, and then you took it to another level.

[Jason Whitlock]

I did.

[Sage Steele]

Right. Your, your top ten eye candy.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, yeah, that, that's on brand for me.

[Sage Steele]

I know, I know. Stirring that pot. Listen, and I've heard the things that you've said about Joy Taylor. We're talking women in general. You mentioned women and your past life, et cetera too. But you know, that's poking the bear when you're like, oh, we're gonna talk about Joy Taylor and her and her chest. And that's the only reason why she was there. And she's shoving it in your face when you were on set with her back in the day. Those were facts.

[Jason Whitlock]

That's what Joy Taylor was doing. I mean, that's a fact. That's what Joy. Joy Taylor would go on TV every day with her breasts out. That wasn't an accident. And they're fake. They're not. I like Fake breasts. I don't mean that in a derogatory fashion. I really don't. But she bought them. She shows them off. That was her marketing tool.

[Sage Steele]

Did you tell her it made you uncomfortable?

[Jason Whitlock]

No. I avoided Joy Taylor because I could see it a mile away. Like, this is trouble. And, you know, this is 2016, I think. And so it was really coming out of the ESPN experience from 2013 to 2015 is what made me say, I got to get right with God, and if I don't, I'm going to get destroyed. And so when I meet Joy Taylor In 2015 or 16, I'm in a mindset of like, I gotta come up from out of my old ways because I'm going to destroy myself and destroy my career if I don't come up out of my old ways. And so when I saw Joy Taylor, I was like, that's trouble. Stay away. And so I did. And they tried. They wanted to put her on the show with me. And I was like, no.

[Sage Steele]

Why?

[Jason Whitlock]

Because she didn't have anything to offer other than her looks. And I was going to do a show with more substance than that. And then based off of my old behavior, me sitting next to half black, half white girl with big cans and a pretty face, I was going to do something stupid. And at some point it was just going to happen. And I was like, I don't want to do something stupid, so just stay away from Joy. I was going to say something overtly flirtatious. I was going to. You know, I don't think I would have done it, but I'm capable of smacking her on the rear end at some point or whatever. I mean, that's the kind of idiot I used to be.

[Sage Steele]

You would have fallen into temptation and you didn't want that around.

[Jason Whitlock]

No, I wanted to do a show, stay in a little safe space. And there's a way that men talk about sports, that we talk about it differently with women. And I was like, I don't want to be like everybody else. Every show has a woman on the show. And I'm like, I can't have the discussions I want to have if there's a woman here.

[Sage Steele]

Well, you that. Which means you can't have them when the camera's rolling. In general, if you're on network tv.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes, But I wanted to be the same person off camera that I was on camera. And that's what made particularly once Marcellus got in there because love cow her. But he was afraid my conversation was too hot. He's tied to Too many safe brands and things like that. But once Marcellus got there it's like, no, there's a conversation I want to have that only guys can have. Just like there are conversations that women can only have. That is just a fact. And, and once you put a woman in the room, in the environment, guys start thinking differently and they start thinking about, well, I'll make sure I don't say anything that eliminates the possibility that I could have sex with her.

[Sage Steele]

Well, how about you guys just control yourselves and not let those things come out of your mouth.

[Jason Whitlock]

We're not meant. Because it interferes with the truth. Yes, we. And that's what everybody's doing. They're making sure they don't say anything.

[Sage Steele]

And I have a son, I have a 21 year old son who's in Colle and it's just called professionalism. Number one when we're at work and the camera's on and self control because it's not like women don't think things too. It's just there's a time and place and in front of when you were at fox Sports or FS1 at this point when it's happening, there were still many limitations. You couldn't say most of the things on your mind even without a woman at the table while you're at FS1. Correct.

[Jason Whitlock]

I don't know if I struggle that much because I just found clever ways to say it or just like you're not supposed to talk bad about Colin Kaepernick. I talked bad about Colin Kardernick.

[Sage Steele]

I'm talking specifically about women and this example of how different it has to be if they're at the table with you every.

[Jason Whitlock]

Look, if I get into a. If I. The Colin Kaepernick conversation, if there's a woman, particularly the kind of women that most of these networks are putting on, they're going to play some sort of emotional Colin Kaepernick car or they're going to, they're going to try to push my buttons.

[Sage Steele]

But so did Max Kellerman and so did Acho, whatever his name is.

[Jason Whitlock]

And that's why I didn't want to be on with. With Max Kellerman.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. I'm just saying it's not like it's just the emotional women, it's the woke men who are. Who are saying things that they're more sensitive than I was the majority of the time.

[Jason Whitlock]

Take what, what's her name? Michelle Beadle. She wasn't on the same show as Stephen A. Smith, but Stephen A. Smith said Something imprecise about Ray Rice. Ray Rice and Michelle Beetle went on a show and turned it into something that it really wasn't correct. And that's what I wanted to avoid because they. The women, that's what they have to offer.

[Sage Steele]

No, but she wasn't even there that day. She wasn't on that show. She was watching from home.

[Jason Whitlock]

I know, and that's what I wanted to Joy Taylor, in my opinion, capable. I'm a big target. Everybody hates me. And so if you can go on the show and stick it to Jason Whitlock, now you've made Twitter fame. I was the one.

[Sage Steele]

Joy T. I get it. All I'm saying is that everybody has to adjust when the cameras are on.

[Mayra Ameth]

A Mochi moment from Sadie, who writes, I'm not crying. You're crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi because I didn't have to convince him I needed a GLP one. He understood and I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com.

[Sage Steele]

Sadie is a Mochi member, compensated for her story. And maybe Joy Taylor is a bad example. Let's say it's me who is going to be your host. And, you know, I'm going to come in and be professional and also be prepared.

[Jason Whitlock]

And so he. Let's keep it real. Here's where it started with me and FS1. I was like, I'm not putting some young eye candy on my show. It's dangerous. And blah, blah, blah. And so I said, I'll compromise with you. Bring Bonnie Bernstein in. Let's. Let's try Bonnie Bernstein. And I was all for it. And. And they were all against it. They were complete. Like I was nuts. They did.

[Sage Steele]

Because she's a journalist.

[Jason Whitlock]

Because she's a journalist in my. I'm gonna keep it real with you. Since you asked. I think it was because, hey, I'm not interested in sleeping with Bonnie Bernstein as an executive. And so I don't want you to bring her in. She's past her prime. I could bring in a 26 year old or a 27 year old.

[Sage Steele]

Well, we know that that happens in every industry, certainly when women, when we age out.

[Jason Whitlock]

FS1. I know for a fact that's what Jamie Horowitz was thinking. And I learned after the fact that's probably what Charlie Dixon was thinking. And, you know, and so they were Completely against Bonnie Burn. And I tried to bring in Bonnie Bernstein. I was, okay, we brought her in for tryouts. And then when I brought in Bonnie Bernstein and Bonnie, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I'm just keeping it real. But Bonnie Bernstein, same age as me, she went too far in terms. Now she's trying to tell me what to do. Now she's trying to dictate what the show was going to be. She wouldn't fall in line. I was creating the opportunity. The industry had clearly said, hey, we're over Bonnie Bernstein. And I was trying to breathe life back into her and bring her back. And as soon as she got there, and I don't remember all the details, but the next thing you know, Bonnie Bernstein is the expert, and she's telling me what me, what I should do, what the show should be about, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, When they objected, I didn't put up much of a fight. I tried. Bonnie didn't. And Bonnie, I'm telling you, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I respect Bonnie.

[Sage Steele]

She was one of the goats.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

With what she did for so many years. And she's incredibly. And she's a friend of mine, so I can't speak to that. And she's a friend of many people. I can't speak to that. I think the big picture with me.

[Jason Whitlock]

Is that her test with me was great.

[Sage Steele]

Well, she's brilliant in many ways because.

[Jason Whitlock]

She could keep up. She'd been in it long enough. Yeah. And she was a real. She'd been there.

[Sage Steele]

She is a journalist. Yes. I think at the end of the day, when we talk about the eye candy stuff and listen, I grew up with all boys. I grew up brothers. I grew up in locker rooms throughout my entire career. I probably. Many would say I should be offended by a lot more things than I am. It's very difficult to offend me, really. So I look at the eye candy stuff and let me have the top 10 list of whatever, And I laugh because I'm like, yep, yep. Typical guy. And then sometimes I'm like, well, gosh, should I think deeper about that? Where someone as smart as Whitlock and many other people are putting up these lists of the hottest women, and I'm like, is it necessary? Is it clickbait? What was that? Who was on that list? What was that? I mean, you're gonna go back through, like, the Erin Andrews and all the people through the years.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

You know, is it Boredom. Is it shock value?

[Jason Whitlock]

Why did I tweet that out? I like to have fun. It's humorous. It's what guys talk about. I'm still a guy. Everything, Every thought of mine. And it should be, but it's not. Every thought of mine should be more pure, but it's just not.

[Sage Steele]

It should.

[Jason Whitlock]

And, Sage, I got to be on TV in a high profile position. Look at me, look at me. And then go compare it to the beauty standards that women are held to much higher to get on tv. And so it's. Everybody knows that beauty's part of the game. And I could sit here and rattle off the two or three women that have jobs that didn't have to pass the beauty standard. But I don't want that smoke and I don't want to be disrespectful. But the overwhelming majority.

[Sage Steele]

I'll save that for when we're done. Go ahead.

[Jason Whitlock]

The overwhelming majority of the women that are on sports TV are attractive. Sage, if you look like me, you wouldn't have been on ESPN as a woman.

[Sage Steele]

Listen, you know, I've gotten in trouble for talking about women in locker rooms as well, for I believe the standard that we should be holding ourselves to and how you dress matters.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes.

[Sage Steele]

And then what happened? I get all the women in the business saying, I'm gonna dress how I want. My skirt's this short. It's like, okay, fine, but, you know, the environment that you're walking into. And I'm never condoning certain behavior and remarks while we're trying to do our jobs, because I lived it for many, many years. But I always say, I say this to my daughters. What's your goal? What's your goal with what you're putting on? Because we're really smart. We know what we're doing. So I firmly believe, because I think I did it for many years now, look, I get to be all comfortable in fuzzy socks and jeans and put my hair up and not care as much. But I think that we can. You can. You don't have to sacrifice being attractive and looking good and caring for professionalism. Like, they can coexist. You can really know what the hell you're talking about and come prepared. I felt I had to be more prepared than any man that I worked next to from the moment I got out of college in college. Because guys and the dorms and IU are like, really? What do you know about sports? And then they do the trivia quizzes to see. To prove that you're dumber than they are. When I would win the trivia contest. So it's always been that way. I get disappointed with what I see a lot right now and have for years. The standards should be higher for ourselves. Forget about you. For ourselves as women. But we're in a different place. This is when I sound like the old man to get off my lawn. And I'm okay with it because I will always contend that those who came before me, the Robin Roberts of the world who were doing it before me, when no women were, and certainly no women who looked like her, she was the one person I had to look up to, like, oh, I could do that.

[Jason Whitlock]

I reject that completely.

[Sage Steele]

Why?

[Jason Whitlock]

In terms of. Because take my sports writing career. I. It's all based off of a guy named Mike Royko. And he wasn't even a sports writer.

[Sage Steele]

Okay.

[Jason Whitlock]

He was just a columnist for the Chicago Tribune when I was a kid, some old Polish white guy. And so this whole deal of, like, oh, I gotta see someone that looks like me in order to have these aspirations or do any of this, I just reject. My whole career is based off Mike Royko.

[Sage Steele]

I agree with you, but I'm. I. This is how I've always said it. I said it on stage at an event the other day in Orlando. Women, number one. And there were so few. I mean, I decided on this career when I was 12 years old in 1984, watching the 84 Olympics, and there were no women. I mean, Phyllis George, what year was that? Gail gardner called an NFL game in the 80s.

[Jason Whitlock]

Jane Kennedy. And people, they were around.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. But 1984, you can count them on one hand.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And it was very few and far between. So it was just in general. And then I already had the dream before I even. Robin Roberts was like early 90s at ESPN. Right. And on through then. So I agree with you. You don't have to see someone. But in a. In a space like this, where it is. I mean, I'm not going on to talk about WNBA at that time, because there was no such thing. I want to talk about football. I want to talk about the NBA. So at that point, it was unheard of. And then my experiences in Indianapolis, where my first sports job was, and with the Pacers in that locker room and the Colts just post, you know, Jeff George and Jim Harbaugh was the quarterback. Your boy, Jeff. Like, I was still the only one for years. And so it was a different.

[Jason Whitlock]

The only what, though?

[Sage Steele]

Woman. And it was different. I'm not woman, period.

[Jason Whitlock]

Not race.

[Sage Steele]

Woman. And that alone, there were different Rules, the locker rooms changed, the time they're open, the length because of women. What happened with the woman in New England? Point being, I'm with you, but at the end of the day.

[Jason Whitlock]

I want you to.

[Sage Steele]

We had to, at that time, work harder. I don't know that that's the case now. I don't agree at all with that now.

[Jason Whitlock]

No, I certainly don't. It's actually easier in many ways, and I would. For minorities, including black males. It's not as difficult. They're getting fast tracked. That's just a fact.

[Sage Steele]

It is a fact. But.

[Jason Whitlock]

But I will say this. I would love for you to read. There's some. Have you read this piece, the Great Feminization? It's. I think her name is Helen Edwards. No, just. It was popular over the last five or six days. So we're in.

[Sage Steele]

Okay.

[Jason Whitlock]

Mid October. It's. It's. I retweeted it. You can find it. But. But this is a woman that writes a long piece on basically the negative impact of all these women entering into male spaces in the workforce. And it's.

[Sage Steele]

I'd love to read that because I think I, I'm going to agree with her about a lot. I really mean it. When people get all sensitive and they're offended, I'm like, really? Should I be? You start to question yourself and the answer is no. Toughen up. Stop being so soft. Like, I truly believe that. So I'll text you after I read it because I do think there has been so much damage done. And when we're to the point at any place of work where a man can't say, gosh, I really love that dress. You look great. That's a problem. That's ridiculous.

[Jason Whitlock]

So she's. Are. You know, it's like created and drives wokeness, of course. And it's, It's a long piece. When I say long 15 minutes to read or something, very long for me. But it's, It's. It's been celebrated. I think last I saw, Maybe it had 6,7 million views over Twitter or whatever. But everybody's been talking about it and sparking. It's legalizing a conversation that I totally think needs to be legalized because it's damaging America. But I think that.

[Sage Steele]

I agree with you, Jason, but I think that this is kind of part of what we believe as conservatives. Really? Is that, like, why. Why are we all in our feelings all the time? Just stop. And that's for so many things. So I am going to guess before reading it that I'll agree with a lot of it and. And still be able to look back on those times when it was different and scary. And I did have to work harder. And you know what? I loved it. I wouldn't change it.

[Jason Whitlock]

It's her argument, though, just, well, you'll read it and we'll talk about it. But the harmful effects of. Because I think 55% of the new York Times, she says, is now women. And that. That's dramatically changed the journalism coming out of the New York Times and all across. And I see it in sports media. It. And, well, yeah, it's. And there's no one. There's no one saying, hey, we got a course. Correct. We. No one's examining the ramifications. Conversations about truth and getting. They're very difficult, and they're not for people whose feelings get hurt easily. And now because women are so influential, men's feelings now are getting hurt very easily.

[Sage Steele]

Correct.

[Jason Whitlock]

And that's something.

[Sage Steele]

And then men are quieter and they're not leading the way we need them to lead. It's all backwards. But I do think it's coming back. I really do believe it's coming back. And that's only because of what happened a year ago at the election.

[Jason Whitlock]

I hope that it's coming back.

[Sage Steele]

I do think so.

[Jason Whitlock]

But there's a strong demographic of women feminists, hardcore. And then there's a lot of men like a Stephen A. And just others that they have bowed to the matriarchy in ways that they don't even realize. And to take it all the way full circle, where we started at, again, that's why a guy in the late 1990s, early 2000s had nothing negative to say about his dad. But in 2025, now, his dad is trash, and his mother did everything. That's a culture shift that he's probably not even aware of, other than he just knows, like, I'm supposed to celebrate the matriarch. I'm supposed to believe my mother is the end all be all, and my dad's sins are the worst sins imaginable, and I must reject him. Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Jason, you look great, by the way.

[Jason Whitlock]

I does.

[Sage Steele]

I think it's those.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, I think it's the beard. People like the beard.

[Sage Steele]

No, no. And you've been so open about your weight struggle, and it's the first shot that people fire at you every time, and you're like, I've been called this forever. And it's like, go for it.

[Jason Whitlock]

But actually, I'm telling you. And this isn't a fake thought I take it as a compliment now, honestly not. I need to correct my weight problem, but it's like, that's all you got. I've done so well that. That's all you have. I've been at this for 30 plus years. I've been controversial, I've been despised, and the best you got is a fat joke. That's a high praise for me. I mean, and I mean that in all sincerity. You got to have something better than that. As much work as I put out here, as many different things that I've said and done, it's like, beat me up about Jeremy Lynn. Something better than, you know, a fat joke because I know I'm fat.

[Sage Steele]

What are you trying to do to work on it? You said you.

[Jason Whitlock]

You're constantly. I told you, you and your husband, you got to come by my house. You can see my home gym.

[Sage Steele]

Really?

[Jason Whitlock]

You can look at my refrigerator. You can look at, you know, it's. It's. I'm. I'm quite. Tiffany. Am I serious about. I'm very serious about.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, you What?

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah. You cook. Yeah. Very healthy food. Yeah, but it's.

[Sage Steele]

No, that's great. And it is. It is a commitment to a complete and total life change. Right.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yes. Now, again, I struggle, obviously, you know, it's a roller coaster, but over mostly, I've done well, but I clearly need to do better.

[Sage Steele]

How old are you?

[Jason Whitlock]

I'm 58.

[Sage Steele]

Okay. So when's your birthday? I should know this.

[Jason Whitlock]

April.

[Sage Steele]

All right. What's your goal right now?

[Jason Whitlock]

My goal would be, come April, I need to be £260. And you know, that's about £70 from right now. December25, March, April, that's seven months or six months.

[Sage Steele]

Like five and a half.

[Jason Whitlock]

It's six. I'm counting April. Yeah. So November, December, and then April's the fourth month. So.

[Sage Steele]

Okay, so a little over, what, 10.12 pounds per month.

[Jason Whitlock]

As much as I work out, that's easy work. It should be if I do the right thing.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, yeah. We need you.

[Jason Whitlock]

I know. Trust me.

[Sage Steele]

We need you. We need you in this space.

[Jason Whitlock]

We need your.

[Sage Steele]

Your fearlessness and.

[Jason Whitlock]

Or at least I believe it. But you really don't. You just need God. But.

[Sage Steele]

So that's the coolest thing about you with this whole process that I watched you a long time ago. I read you in the Kansas City Star. I lived in Kansas for a while. My dad was stationed at Leavenworth. Dave's dad was stationed there, too. He lived there. Like, I've known about Jason Whitlock for a long time. And your voice is needed. And that evolution, which is what it is. The last time I saw you was a month ago, right after Charlie Kirk died at an event at a church in Tennessee where he and his wife were supposed to be on stage. It was going to be you, me, Charlie and Erica. And you got up there and spoke loudly and proudly about your faith and what you believe and your failures. That's the part that's been the coolest for me to watch, is for you to lead with that, with everything you say. Now, even admitting you know all the stuff with women and bad habits, et cetera, like, you are bold with your faith. Where does that come from?

[Jason Whitlock]

I was raised in a small church in Indianapolis, discipled mostly by my grandmother, Mama Lovey, and so implanted, instilled in me at a very young age. And then, obviously, I go off into the world and have success in the world and fall into a bunch of bad habits. But I never walked away from my faith. I just put it on the back burner and total mistake, Total mistake. And then in 2013 or 14, I can't remember exactly, but I think it was 2013, I get the job at ESPN to launch the Undefeated. It's like, for me, a writer that is the ultimate. It's just, man, I'm gonna run the Undefeated, and we're gonna do all this great journalism, and it's the cap. It's the peak of my sports writing career. And I got completely destroyed or attacked and eviscerated. And it humbled me, and I needed to be humbled. And it made me realize. It made me think about, like, why everybody knows I'm the best at this. Why would everybody attack me? And it opened my eyes to, like, oh, I represent a point of view that I wasn't even fully aware of. I had this biblical point of view that my grandmother in 25th Street Baptist Church put in me, and people could see enough of that. Even though I was living out in the world and doing a lot of sinful things, my worldview was biblical. And so those attacks for two years made me realize, like, man, if you don't get right with God, you're going to get completely destroyed. You've been in denial about who you are, why you're here, why your grandmother invested so much in you, why you. A lot of the things that I said as a kid that baffled my parents or people in my family, it all made sense once I understood, like, what my true purpose is. And so after getting let go at ESPN or even just during that process, I was like, man, you got to get right with God. You got to change up your habits. You can't be doing all the same things. And. And so I just started going down that path in 2015 and, you know, made it a point to read my Bible and made it a point to pray more often, made it a point to go to church, made it a point to, you know, I've watched so many sermons. Like YouTube makes it so easy to read the Bible, have the Bible read to you, watch sermons. And so I just. It was a deal of admitting I can't make it without getting right with God. And so that's just been the path and the journey I've been on ever since. And, you know, here I am. So if that's. I got about 10 years deep in taking my faith far more seriously.

[Sage Steele]

It's. It's beautiful. It's really, really cool to watch. And that's what I know makes it easier to accept when people come at you or when relationships end. It really is, you know, there's a. We know there's a bigger picture. You have made it very clear, you know, that your. Your focus in your life now is to really give back through this career.

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

So. And speaking your mind and being fearless. So that plus faith. How. How do you really want to be remembered?

[Jason Whitlock]

Just someone that stood up for biblical truth. Just that that's, you know, someone that stood up for biblical truth and took all the heat that went along with that. I guess if I want the world to remember, I want the credit that. And this is just a worldly ego thing, but I believe I'm the best sports writer maybe ever.

[Sage Steele]

What makes you the best?

[Jason Whitlock]

Most sports writers never take. Take on the super serious issues and explore, you know, make that part of their brand that, hey, look, I'm. There's issues from Colin Kaepernick to racial issues to. I mean, I feel like I've taken a lot of bold stances and. And so I guess if I were to refine it and remove myself from it and be more Christian, I want to be remembered as like, oh, man, Whitlock was the boldest sportswriter ever because of his biblical worldview, because of his faith in God, because of the way his grandmother discipled him, and that just made him an elite sports journalist because most serious journalism is done outside the world of sports. That's always been true. And if you actually look at this era of sports writers, I apologize for this sounding narcissistic and arrogant, but I look out and see all these people trying to mimic what I did and they're doing bad versions of it. But, you know, the pinnacle of my sports writing, the accomplishment or the, the job at espn was the high point. But the real high point was in 2007 when I wrote the piece about Don Imus and Nappy Headed Hoes and Oprah Winfrey had me on. And that's when, like my critics and the people that were jealous and they all came out of the closet. How dare Oprah put this guy on. And you know, no sports writer had ever done that. And it, it, you know, that was probably. And I, I was speaking because people are like, Whitlock, you changed. And I'm like, how? I was like, did you see what did I get super famous for in 2006, 2007? The whole Don Imus deal. Because people are like, you used to be a liberal. And I was like, when? Yeah, I've been getting this heat forever for say, you know, when you go look at what I wrote about the genes 6. That was one of the original Jesse Smollett type deals in 2006 or 7 and all that stuff. I've always been, I've always had the same worldview. I just didn't fully understand where it came from. I had forgotten just how much Jesus was planted in me as a kid. And it affected my journalism and my ability to do journalism. And so it's an. I've given you a very worldly, non biblical answer to your question. I gave you a biblical one first. And so I just.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, no, I appreciate it.

[Jason Whitlock]

But then I.

[Sage Steele]

This is why you're Jason Whitlock. You keep it real no matter what. And I, I'm grateful from day one.

[Jason Whitlock]

I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Even though I didn't drink any of the water.

[Sage Steele]

We start this conversation with a nice, beautiful, clean glass of water and he drops his gum in it like it's about as hard as a rock right now. You want to sip?

[Jason Whitlock]

Yeah, I do. I'm going to drink it all and re chew my gum.

[Sage Steele]

No, you're not. I will so judge you. Tiffany, get your boy. Oh, no, no.

[Jason Whitlock]

I didn't want to be chewing gum during the interview.

[Sage Steele]

You don't want to be wasteful.

[Jason Whitlock]

Gum is still good.

[Sage Steele]

You're a liar.

[Jason Whitlock]

It is.

[Sage Steele]

You are lying in front of everybody right now.

[Jason Whitlock]

I think it's. They call them mementos or something.

[Sage Steele]

Mentos, not mementos. Thanks, Whitlock.

[Jason Whitlock]

Thank you, Sage.

[Sage Steele]

Thank you.

[Jason Whitlock]

Awesome. So fun.

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