John C. Maxwell Says Your Response to Failure Is the Only Thing That Actually Matters

Summary

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The Sage Steele Show: John C. Maxwell Says Your Response to Failure Is the Only Thing That Actually Matters

Podcast: The Sage Steele Show
Guest: John C. Maxwell
Date: July 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this rich and engaging episode, leadership expert and best-selling author John C. Maxwell joins Sage Steele for a deep-dive conversation on failure, leadership, purpose, and the enduring impact of choosing growth and significance over mere success. Throughout, Maxwell reflects on hard-earned life lessons, the role of vulnerability, and practical wisdom from his 92nd book, How to Get a Return on Your Failure. The discussion is filled with stories, memorable one-liners, and actionable advice for anyone seeking to lead a more meaningful life, both personally and professionally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining Success and Significance

• Maxwell’s Personal Definition
  • “Success to me is very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most. I think that's success.” (01:26)
• The Difference Between Success and Significance
  • “Success is about what I've accomplished. But significance is what I try to help other people accomplish.” (25:32)
  • Maxwell’s focus is on serving others and making a difference beyond personal achievement.

Gifts, Calling, and Stewardship

• On Gifts and Humility
  • “Most people wake up to an alarm. I wake up to a calling... If you want to impress people, talk about your success. But if you want to impact people, talk about your failures.” (01:49)
  • “My gifts are amazing. God's amazing. God gave me those gifts. I don't think I'm amazing. I think I'm John. I'm just people's friend. But the gifts—yeah, but the gifts are his, not mine.” (02:56)
• Working the Gifts
  • “They're not mine, but I'm responsible for them.” (03:55)
  • Maxwell emphasizes the responsibility to steward and develop one’s gifts.

Early Life and the Power of Feeling Valued

• Environment and Self-esteem
  • Felt special and valued from a young age due to unconditional love from his mother and support from his father. (05:48)
  • “When people feel valued, I think that they do better.” (06:28)
• Discovery of Leadership
  • A fifth-grade teacher told young Maxwell he was a leader, awakening his sense of purpose. (07:48, 10:44)
  • “Awareness awakens within you that desire to go that route.” (10:44)

Leadership Lessons and Evolution

• Leadership as a Teen
  • Early view: Leader is just the boss; later learned the importance of relationships and influence. (11:24)
• Influence of Reading & Mentors
  • His father paid him to read books rather than do chores, leading to a daily family tradition of discussing what each child had learned. (12:25-13:15)
• Motivation for Writing
  • Wrote books to “influence people beyond my personal touch”—not just for fame or money. (13:15)
  • “I wanted to find out what it is that makes people successful in life... If I can figure that out, that's what I'm going to write on.” (15:13)

Growth vs. Goals

• Growth Mindset
  • “I'm a growth person, not a goal person. If you set goals... they plateau. But if you're growth minded, you'll hit every goal you ever wanted to have, but you keep going.” (22:07)
  • “If you're goal-setting, you're kind of destination disease like. But if you're growth minded, you don't have an arrival.” (22:07)
• Never Retiring
  • “I have no desire to retire. Until a lady told me recently, ‘when you retire, you get to do what you want to do when you want to do it.’ I said, then I'm retired.” (23:29)

Parenting, Family, and Core Values

• On Parenting with Intention
  • “When we were ready to start having our kids, we said, okay, what's important to us? Because we're not going to try to press them in every area of their life, but what are the things that we want to make sure that we pass on to them? ... We just picked out three or four things like that. And we said, these are the hills we die on. Everything else, we don't fight.” (44:06)
• Humility in Parenting
  • Admits to making mistakes—“Every adult needs to be a parent just to be humbled.” (44:06)
• Legacy and Gratitude
  • Moving story about sharing 29 lessons from his father’s life at his deathbed, illustrating the enduring impact of good parenting and values. (82:56-84:33)

Vulnerability & Connection

• The Power of Sharing Failures
  • “If you want to impress people, talk about your success, but if you want to impact people, talk about your failures.” (49:22)
  • “People want to connect with you... The goal is to close the gap.” (49:22-50:53)
• Practical Advice On Writing
  • “Don't try to write a book. Just write things that you're thinking upon. Put them on paper... After a while, you'll fall in love with writing.” (52:41-55:26)

Embracing Failure as Foundational

• Success and Failure as Companions
  • “When success and failure are together, they complement each other. When they're separate, they compete with each other.” (59:02)
• Biggest Failure? The First One
  • “I sometimes think the first failure is the biggest only because it will mark you whether you're going to improve and get better with failure or whether you're going to just kind of say, wow, that's a bad word in my life.” (60:56)
• Response Matters Most
  • “Failure is never the problem. It's my response to that failure that determines whether it was a good miss or a bad miss.” (62:54)

Lessons from Adversity & Anticipating Challenges

• Lessons Only Adversity Can Teach
  • Discovered through hundreds of interviews that “the most important lessons people ever learn is adversity.” (59:02)
• Anticipating Failure Isn’t Negative—It’s Wise
  • Story of a pilot who survived a windshear incident thanks to anticipating potential failures. “He anticipated a failure that allowed him, when he had it, to know exactly what to do.” (70:49-73:34)
• Embracing Hard
  • “Everything worthwhile is uphill.” (73:37)
  • “Disappointment is the gap between expectation and reality.” (74:42)

Leadership, Humility & Vulnerability

• On Humility in Leadership
  • “Humility is the most important quality a leader can possess.” (67:21)
  • “Ego pride... Instead of fostering and nourishing and bringing out the best in people, it reduces them. It minimalizes them all the time.” (67:56)
  • Laments that too few leaders are humble and accountable: “I don't think people want a perfect leader... But I do think they want an authentic leader.” (69:12-69:42)

Giving, Generosity, and Wealth

• On Money and Picking a Number
  • “If you don't give when you have little, you won't give when you have a lot. So... if you're selfish without anything, you'll be selfish with something.” (77:42)
  • On financial goals: “If you don't pick a number, you'll be greedy. I'm greedy, you're greedy. ... Once you pick a number, it's enough... Everything else you can give away.” (78:24)
  • “Every year, Margaret and I intentionally raise our level of giving. Not our standard of living, but our standard of giving.” (81:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Most people wake up to an alarm. I wake up to a calling.” — John C. Maxwell (01:49, 31:01)
• “If you want to impress people, talk about your success. But if you want to impact people, talk about your failures.” — John C. Maxwell (01:49, 49:22)
• “Growth is not a destination; it's a way of life.” — John C. Maxwell (22:07)
• “The worst excuse is your best excuse, because you believe it.” — John C. Maxwell (76:33)
• “When success and failure are together, they complement each other. When they're separate, they compete with each other.” — John C. Maxwell (59:05)
• “Disappointment is the gap between expectation and reality.” — John C. Maxwell (74:42)
• “If you don't value people, you're not going to add value to people.” — John C. Maxwell (36:57)
• “I never wrote a book to make money. I never thought that I would sell a lot of books. All this surprises me... If you just really try to help people, that's all I've ever really wanted to do.” — John C. Maxwell (20:10-22:02)

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Segment Timestamps

• [01:26] — Defining personal success
• [05:48] — Early family influence & feeling valued
• [10:44] — Teacher’s role in sparking leadership
• [12:25] — Life-changing book reading habit
• [13:15] — Motivation for writing books
• [22:07] — Growth over goals; never retiring
• [25:32] — Success vs. significance
• [44:06] — Parenting: Core values & humility
• [49:22] — Vulnerability: Impact comes from sharing failures
• [52:41] — Advice for new writers
• [59:02] — Success and failure belong together
• [62:54] — Lessons from first and biggest failure
• [67:21] — Humility as essential leadership quality
• [73:37] — Embracing hard and "uphill" thinking
• [77:42] — Financial philosophy: Generosity and picking a number
• [82:56] — Moving tribute to parental legacy

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Tone and Feel

Warm, deeply personal, and candid, the conversation is laced with humor, humility, and authenticity. Maxwell demystifies success, emphasizes real connection, and encourages listeners to lead with vulnerability and intention—always focusing on others.

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Summary Takeaways

• Responding to failure is the critical factor in growth; success and failure must coexist.
• True leadership is marked by humility, vulnerability, and a genuine desire to serve.
• Growth and impact trump goals and financial milestones as sources of fulfillment.
• Generosity is a heart posture, not a function of wealth.
• Life’s hardest moments and failures, if met with the right response, yield the greatest lessons and character.

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This episode is a masterclass in personal growth and leadership, grounded in stories and wisdom from a life devoted to impact over ego. If you seek inspiration to embrace your failures, steward your gifts, and lead a significant life, this conversation delivers—one practical insight after another.

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Transcript

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[John C. Maxwell]

Success to me is very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most. I think that's success.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I have John C. Maxwell in my chair across from me. This is amazing.

[John C. Maxwell]

I don't think I'm amazing. I think I'm John. I'm just people's friend.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Your new book, number 92?

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, number 92.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Goodness gracious.

[John C. Maxwell]

All that means is I'm old.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It means more than that.

[John C. Maxwell]

Most people wake up to an alarm. I wake up to a calling. If you want to impress people, talk about your success. But if you want to impact people, talk about your failures, failure is never the problem. It's my response to that failure that determines whether it was a good myth or a bad myth. With my life, your life, with everybody life, there are two stories we can tell. I could tell the story of me, or I could tell the story of what I did for others. One's pretty small, one's pretty big. I want to tell the story of what I did for others.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I have to tell you I don't often get starstruck because you've seen enough famous people, interviewed enough athletes and stars and presidents even, and all of a sudden I have John C. Maxwell in my chair across from me. This is amazing. I mean, it's not amazing.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

You hear it all the time, don't you?

[John C. Maxwell]

This is not amazing. No.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. You hear it all the time, don't you?

[John C. Maxwell]

You know what? It's one thing to hear it, it's another thing to believe it. I'm very grateful. My gifts are amazing. God's amazing. God gave me those gifts. I don't think I'm amazing. I think I'm John. I'm just people's friend. But the gifts. Yeah, but the gifts are his, not mine. I have no credit for those. I just have to work them, build them, develop them, steward them well. But I had a mentor, really helped me when I was younger that just said, john, you're not amazing. People will tell you you're amazing, but they confuse your gifts with you.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What I don't think I'm confusing is that you chose to use the gifts.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, I think I did that. And to work the gifts.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes, and to work. Once you realize you have them.

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, now we're stewards of them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Then you have, too.

[John C. Maxwell]

They're not mine, but I'm responsible for them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

But a lot of people, for whatever reason, choose not to. To use the gift. Why do you think?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, I think there are several reasons they do that. I think sometimes people are lazy. I mean, just a lot of people, just lazy. They don't want to work. You know, you have to work. It's everything, what I say, everything worth wells uphill you got to climb. You know, some people are looking for the escalator. You know, if it's not working, they don't, you know, they don't go up. And so I think it's a choice that you make. But. But I think the people who do well are the people who do the right thing, whether they feel like it or not. You know, there's a big difference between waiting to feel good before you do the right thing and doing the right thing so you can feel good. A lot of difference between those two. And I think I've just tried to do the right thing. The feelings will come afterwards, but if you wait to feel, to do, there's just a whole bunch of things you won't do. Or at least I won't. I won't.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Well, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable and scary.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And so we just push it off. Push it off. I want to make sure I get the title of this latest book right. How to get a return on your failure. And the second you handed me that at our learning lunch in Jupiter, Florida.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

When I eventually made it there, kind of on time, long story, I was like, oh, the word Failure to me is one of the most important words right now that I'm trying to focus on. So I'm going to get to that because this latest book is incredible and based on how we began. I want to ask you, when do you recall when you realized exactly what your gifts were?

[John C. Maxwell]

I realized I was special at a very young age. And I don't take credit for it, but I can still remember sitting in my family's backyard by myself. I was probably four or five, feeling very special, feeling that God really had a plan for my life. I can't explain that. I would say this. I had my mother unconditionally loved me, ridiculously. So I grew up in a culture, in an environment of that. So I don't think I felt that I was at that age. I don't think I could have comprehended. I don't think I felt that I was gifted. But I did feel that I was special. And I think that's a prerequisite for a lot of good things in life because I felt valued. And when people feel valued, I think that they do better. At least I do better. And so I felt that at a very young, very young age. And then I realized. I remember when I was in the fifth grade, my fifth grade teacher pulled me aside and shared with me. He said, john, you're a very good leader. Everybody in the class follows you. And it just really brought to my recognition, probably for the first time, that I can lead. And so that kind of was a beginning. And, you know, when I was in the 11th grade, I was named captain of my team and I wasn't a senior yet. So I saw these leadership gifts starting to pop out a little bit. Bit.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Then I read that you said that you hit the parent lottery. Is that right?

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, my gosh.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So when you say you felt seen and loved from such a young age, that's got to be aside from God to have good parents.

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, and again, that's no credit to me. We don't choose our parents. But my father was a great people person. Everybody loved My dad, had incredible drive, energy. I get all that from him. My mother was just comfortable in her own skin, loved us unconditionally, no strings attached. When I literally got in trouble, first person I went to was my mother. I go to mom because I knew mom would listen to me, she would understand. Didn't go to my dad, to my mama.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Give me an example of how little Johnny got in trouble.

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, I was just a very fun kid. I just enjoyed adventure. I had a lot of friends and wasn't a great student. I really didn't care to study that much. In fact, this is a terrible story, but literally, I had four real smart girls do all my homework for me.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

You did?

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, no. Literally, no, no. I never took a book home and did what grade is from seventh grade on. Because we got in seventh grade, started having to do homework, and I thought, that's messing up with my relational time. And so I've got to find somebody that will do that for me. And so I got. What you have to do if you're going to do that is you have to pick smart people. If you pick somebody that's not very smart, it's not going to help you with your grades. And so we used to have. I'm old. We used to have what we called study halls. Where at study hall, that's when I go to the four girls and to make sure they get my homework done. Because you want to get it done in time because that would hurt you.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Great.

[John C. Maxwell]

If you don't get your.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So you employed four different girls. What, you just offer them a soda pop? Like, what was the friendship?

[John C. Maxwell]

Just friendship.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

You get to be friends with me if you do my homework for me.

[John C. Maxwell]

Here's what I tell parents. If they would have seen me when I was a child, they would be greatly encouraged about their own journey. Because I played ball and had friends, and that was it. I mean, I went to school because you had to go to school to be on the team.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Right? It's the only reason why you went.

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, totally. And I loved the teachers. Teachers loved me. I got along with everybody, But I just didn't really want to do too much homework. I didn't feel that.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It's the charm, the smile at a young age. The pipes.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Did you have pipes when you were

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

in seventh grade where you could just suck people in?

[John C. Maxwell]

I don't know if I. But I had them. By the time when I went to the church, I had them, But I just love people and I love life and I love. So I was just. And so many times I would look at what I was about to do and I would say, I'll get punished for this. So I would weigh it. Is it worth the punishment? And there were times I'd say, yeah, it really is. Sometimes I'd even go tell my mom, okay, here's what I did. Discipline me. But it was fun.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I was honest about it. Mom, I came to you, right?

[John C. Maxwell]

He was honest about it. Oh, my gosh, that's terrible, isn't it?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Amazing what positive reinforcement can do for you. And I'm picturing you as a fifth grader when your teacher said that you're a leader and as a kid you go, oh, oh wow. And then you want more of it.

[John C. Maxwell]

Of course. Of course, yeah. Awareness awakens within you that desire to go that route. Awareness is so important, I think, in a person's life. And he watched me on the playground and watched the kids follow me and he said, john, you're a leader. And he was the first person to really say I was a leader. I said, okay, I think I am. And it just put me on a path again. Awareness, very important.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

One of. I mean then there's probably different evolutions to the word leader as you grow.

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh sure.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So what did you think a leader was as a teenager?

[John C. Maxwell]

Certainly versus I thought a leader was just a boss. I just tell people what to do. And I didn't quite get the relational skills quite that early. I just like to tell people what to do. I just did. It's a terrible disease, but it really is. And I was very comfortable doing it. I mean, it wasn't like I should. I just felt very comfortable. You know, it's almost, I think it's

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

the way, it's the way you do it when you're telling people. I mean, so you're a kid, you are yelling and screaming. I guess, I'm guessing.

[John C. Maxwell]

I was greatly impacted by Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. See, my father paid us our allowance to read books. So from the seventh grade on, he would pick the books out and then whatever the book cost, he would pay me to read it. So I didn't get like an allowance for doing chores, I just got allowance for reading books. It was life changing.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Did I see that he had all of you read 30 minutes a night?

[John C. Maxwell]

Yes, A day? Yeah. And then at dinner at the table, that's what we talked about. Books we were reading. Always phenomenal. My father was the college president, but at 5:30 every day from 5:30 to 7, he was home and we were around the dinner table. And what are you reading, John? And what are you learning from it and how are you applying it to your life? I'm the middle child, my older brother, my younger sister. It just put us so far ahead of our peers. Not as far as brilliance or academic, but just as far as understanding what we needed to do to do well in life. It really was a preparing, equipping time for us. No doubt about it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Did you think then about writing books?

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, no, not at all. I never thought about. I loved reading, but I never thought about writing books until I was in my mid-20s. I had a mentor named Les Parrott, and he had written six books. I said last, you know, why do you write books? And he said, I write books to influence people beyond my personal touch. And immediately when he told me that Sage, I just. We were having lunch, I leaned over and I said, I'm going to start writing books because I wanted to influence people beyond my personal touch. And that was the motivation. I didn't write books because I wanted to write books. I wrote books because I thought how wonderful it would be to help people that you'll never meet, never know. And so that was really my motivation. And immediately I said, okay. And so, literally for the next 18 months, before I ever wrote anything, I kept asking myself, if I'm going to write a book, how do I help people? What do I write about? And, you know, people come to me every day because I am an author, and they'll say, I want to write a book. And I'll say, well, good for you. And almost 90% of the time, it's about themselves. And, I mean, I want to walk into the life and say, my name's John, and I'm your friend, and your mom's going to buy it and your cousin's going to buy it and your neighbor's going to buy it. You know, you're going to sell about a dozen copies. It's going to be over. I never, ever desired to write about myself. I wanted to find out what it is that makes people successful in life. If I can figure that out, that's what I'm going to write on. I'm going to study it, I'm going to learn it, I'm going to practice it, and I'm going to write it. And it took me a year and a half. I asked successful people every day why they were successful, how they got there. I studied it, and I came to the conclusion after 18 months that if I could help people communicate, because every day we have to sell ideas, if I could help them lead, that's. That's how you build businesses. If I could help them equip, that's how you build teams. If I could help them with relationships and if I could help them with mindset. So if you read a Maxwell book today, 92 of them, I promise you one of those five things are in every book I write. I constantly keep going in, tried to say it different ways, but just helping people. And as I look back, you know, I could tell you a lot of dumb decisions I made, but that was really a wise decision.

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

You were young to make that decision.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, I was. I was in my 20s.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Were you in the middle of. You were a young pastor at that time?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yes.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Yeah. But I said, I'm going to write for other people. I'm not writing for myself. I'm going to. I'm going to write for the sages of life. I'm going to sit there and I'm going to write something that you can grab hold of that will help you. And I think that has been. In fact, I'm quite certain that's the secret of my books even today. I mean, I've written many of my books. I wrote 15, 20 years ago. They sell as many copies today as they sold then. Wow. In fact, my backlist is humongous. I don't know, probably a million books a year on backlist, just.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh, my goodness.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Because they're based on principles that help people. I mean, and the principles stay the same. They're pretty.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What was the first one?

[John C. Maxwell]

It was. It was. I'm laughing because it wasn't any good. It was called think on.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

People still buy it.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. It was called Think on these things. And. And I'm not being modest. It's not any good. In fact, I go to my publisher every year and ask to buy the book back so I can get it off the shelf.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Stop.

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, no, I do, because it sells now because of my name. But it's okay. Watch it. 120 pages, 33 chapters. Do the math.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Okay.

[John C. Maxwell]

Four pages.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

That's a lot. Okay.

[John C. Maxwell]

I had a lady come up to me the other day and she had this book. First one, she said, oh, will you sign it? And I said, oh, yeah, I love this book. I looked at her and I said, what do you love about it? And she said, I love the short chapters. And she looked at me, said, how did you think about just doing short chapters? I said, I did short chapters because I couldn't think. I mean, a lot of those chapters are three pages too long. I mean, you know, it's cold to think all these things. There's nothing to think about. I mean, there really is. I mean, but it was my first shot, right? And what I tell people all the time is, you're never good the first time. I'm never good the first time. When people say, well, I really want. I've never done this before, and I really want to do it really well, I want to walk in their life and say, well, it won't be that good. It's the first time. You know, we didn't talk in sentences in the beginning. We didn't walk around the block. And, you know, you have to have a first time that doesn't go well so you can have a second time that probably doesn't go too hot either. So you can have a third time and a fourth time because you're going to get there, but you aren't going to get there the first time. And so, yeah, and so I go every year to the publisher and I say, I'll buy the book. I'll buy the name, the price. And of course, they won't let me. They own it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So why do you think. How many copies has it sold?

[John C. Maxwell]

40 million. That's ridiculous, isn't it?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Why? Why has it sold 40 million copies? For being a very. Let's say. Let's give it a compliment in your words and say, average book, not a bad book. Well,

[John C. Maxwell]

I don't know. I've had 14 million sellers or higher. And I've had, like, I don't know, 40, maybe half a million or more. But again, they're based on helping people. My books are very simple. My books aren't hard to understand. In fact, I was doing a TV interview one time and I think the guy was digging me a little bit. It was all right. But he said, I've read a couple of your books. He said, they're quite simple. They are. Thank you. And I think that threw him because I don't know, thought maybe I'd be defensive because they are simple. But he said, they're really simple. I said, well, thank you very much. I said, they're simple to understand, but they're not simple to apply, are they? I said, I keep them simple. So everybody knows what to do. Now you have to make a choice to do it. But I never wrote a book to make money. I never thought that I would sell a lot of books. All this surprises me. I mean, it wasn't like I said. In fact, I had a mentor back to my mentor and I was in his office one day and I saw that all the books he had written had sold 100,000 copies. And I can remember looking at those and saying, oh my, I wonder if in my lifetime I'll sell 100,000 copies of books. And it was like, that's my goal, 100,000. Wouldn't that be amazing if I did 100,000? I mean, I don't mean that some kind. I do that in back list every month now. But I didn't. Again, I'm surprised. I'm fulfilled, but I'm surprised if you just really try to help people. That's all I've ever really wanted to do, just help people.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

If your goal is not money and fame, yes.

[John C. Maxwell]

I've never. I'm a growth person, not a goal person. If you set goals. What I find about people set goals is they plateau, they hit their goal, they say, now what do I do? But if you're growth minded, you'll hit every goal you ever wanted to have. But you keep going. You see, if you're goal setting, you're kind of destination disease like. But if you're growth minded, you don't have an arrival. I don't have like a finish line. I'm 79. People say, well, what's it like to be wrapping it up? But I said I didn't know I was wrapping it up. I think I'm still helping people and making a difference. I don't have a finish line. I don't have one. I don't think it's healthy. I think we're to continue to grow and learn. And I think that the moment I set a goal or put an arrival date Then I think I watch people all the time, they quit too soon. And if you have a self imposed finish line and you cross it when you're done, you're finished.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

We see it every day. Why do you think people quit so soon?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, I think a lot of people quit because they don't like their work. And I feel very badly for people that, I mean, I think how terrible it would be to every day do something you don't like to do. That would be hard. See, I love what I do. So I don't even think I, you know, I don't think I work. I mean, when I think of work, I think of something would be kind of like drudgery. I love what I do. In fact, people say, well, when are you going to retire? Well, I'm not going to retire. I have no desire to retire. Until a lady told me recently, said, you know, when you retire, you get to do what you want to do when you want to do it. I said, then I'm retired. I'm retired right now. I'm getting to do what I want to do. Right. I'm talking with you, we're talking to people, we're helping people. Is there something better than this? I mean, I live on a golf, I have two homes, I have a wonderful life, I live on golf courses. But there has to be something more important every day than wake up and find out what time you tee off. Yeah, I mean, if that's really it for you. I kind of think that's a little empty.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Truly, you see all the time too. I mean, I think there's true research to behind when people stop, when they choose to stop and slow down. I mean, they go fast all the

[John C. Maxwell]

time because they lost their, why they lost their purpose. Yeah. So I, you know, my father was 92, he worked full time through his 95th year. And at 92, we were having lunch one day and he said, john, he said, I've been thinking about this. He said, my best days are still

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

ahead of me at 92.

[John C. Maxwell]

Isn't that beautiful?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh my goodness.

[John C. Maxwell]

I know people 22 can't say that, you know, but he always had a purpose out there. Yet, you know, he had a bigger reason for being than just for himself. I think the issue more than anything else is that if I'm into me, it becomes a very small world. But if I'm into other people and trying to help them, the world expands and gets big. And I say that that's the difference between success and significance. Success is about what I've accomplished. But significance is what I try to help other people accomplish. And that's what we do. We try to help people accomplish things.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It is truly the goal. In some ways, it is selfish because we feel good when we know we can help. But I feel like that's a good kind of selfishness.

[John C. Maxwell]

It's the right kind of self, because you're exactly right. I've known a lot, and you have, too. I've known a lot of unhappy, successful people.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh, so many.

[John C. Maxwell]

But I've never met an unhappy person that lived to help other people. I just haven't. I'm sure there's somebody out there that is. But people that are living to help others, I think they're very fulfilled. I am.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I can feel it. And all the times now that I've been fortunate enough to be around you here, we're in Atlanta right now, lifesurge, and I saw that audience from backstage today, watching you. You could hear a pin drop.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, they were great.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Hanging on every word.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And so the energy that you continue to bring, like, it's authentic and they feel that.

[John C. Maxwell]

They feel it. Yeah, But I have that energy because I'm helping people. Because people say, well, it keeps you in the game. Well, what keeps you in the game is people are getting better, you're helping people. I mean, that keeps me in the game. I don't keep me in the game to be in a game. I help people. And when you look at that audience, like today of, I don't know, three, four thousand people, and you're watching them take notes and they're in it with you, and, you know, you're giving them things that they're going to take home with them, that it's going to make them a better person. If that doesn't fulfill you, I'd like to see what turns a person on, really. So, I mean, that's the joy of helping people, serving people, adding value to people, making a positive difference in their life. I mean, my life is very simple. It's not complicated. Every day I get up and I ask myself one question. Who do I add value to today? That's it. I mean, I got up this morning and jumped in my car to come down here to do life surgery, but I knew we were going to do the podcast. And I get to help. I get to add value, hopefully to you and to all the people that follow you. Sage. I mean, that's worth getting up for.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I think when an unexpected pregnancy happens,

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Can I really do this?

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes. And let me tell you from personal experience. Yes, yes, yes. The value that you bring, just. But. And you take. You make everybody feel like they really matter to you in that moment. And that's not something that you can teach people. That's either in you or it's not. When we got to meet for lunch and this is a thing for you once a month.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yes. Learning lunch.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Learning lunch.

[John C. Maxwell]

And the two of you just taught me a whole bunch. I sit there and ask questions.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It was unforgettable. The food was amazing. And I didn't eat much because I was just so locked in and listening. And I was trying to not be like, in a crowd and take notes. I wanted to. And I was like, okay, this needs to be imprinted on my brain. Every single thing he's saying. But it was just warm, welcoming, unforgettable. I told you that day, Dave and I did the best lunch I've ever had. And Unforgettable. And I also. One thing that stood out, many things, but your routine and every morning. Well, first of all, you don't even sleep that much.

[John C. Maxwell]

Not a lot, but I sleep as much as I can. I don't.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

As much as you need is what you made it sound like. But you're up at the crack of dawn about 4:30. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Okay.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Can you tell us your morning routine? Because I'm fascinated by it.

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, first of all, let's. When people know I get up at 4:30, the first thing they say to me is, why? Yeah, yeah. Why are you so stupid.

[Shopify Testimonial Speaker]

Why?

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, you could be sleeping somewhere. When they hear that I get up that early, the first thing they say to me is, they say, well you're, you must be very disciplined. And I said, no, I'm not. Look at this body. If I was disciplined, I wouldn't look like this.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Stop.

[John C. Maxwell]

So it isn't. I get up at 4:30 in the morning and I don't set alarms at all. In fact, I have a statement. Most people wake up to an alarm. I wake up to a calling.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So those of us that need an alarm, I mean, you just crushed me.

[John C. Maxwell]

I'm kidding, I would crush you. A calling? Yeah, I wake up to something bigger. A calling is something bigger than you. So I never set alarms. I mean I don't set alarms at all. I wake up and so. And I don't need a lot of sleep. So that's not like discipline. You just. My father didn't need a lot of sleep. My brother doesn't need a lot of sleep. I don't need a lot of sleep. So about four hours is it? And I'm done. But I mean that hasn't. But let me just say this. I don't consider myself disciplined at all. But my life is full of anticipation. Anticipation gets me up. I mean I wake up and I say, oh my gosh, get the robe on, let's start writing. Because as I'm writing it's such a joy to be writing. You know, I Write with a 4 color Bic pen, 99 cent Bic pen on a legal bag. There's nothing sophisticated about anything I do. But as I'm writing, the feeling I have of somebody's going to read this, it's going to be right, what they need. I'm just full of anticipation of how people are going to get better because of what I do.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So you're in a robe first thing in the morning. Get coffee first.

[John C. Maxwell]

No, no, don't need it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Just go right.

[John C. Maxwell]

When I wake up in two minutes I can start writing. I don't need to warm up at all. You know, usually I'll get like a glass of water, but no, no, no, I love to smoke coffee. I don't like to drink it, but I love smoke. But I don't need. Again, that's nothing but genetic. There's nothing to. I mean there are some people that, you know, they take some. They have a process. Nothing wrong with that either. And a lot of people are not morning people, they're night people. But what I do think is you should do your Best work in your best time. And so because I am a morning person, that's when I'm at my best. That's when I write, that's when I think I do the stuff that is the heavy. I do the heavy work in the morning, early.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And how long usually do you write?

[John C. Maxwell]

Until about 11.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So from 4:35 o' clock to 11:00 clock every day?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, no, like today I had to come down here and do this, but every day I'm home. That would be fair. Yeah. So by 11, 11:30. And then what I love to do, if I can, is I love to go swim for an hour and then grab Margaret and take her to lunch and then I'll do my phone calls, my relational stuff the rest of the day. And at night I do no mental work at all because I'm tired. I'm not a night person. So do your best work and your best time. It's very simple. But my life is filled with anticipation and it's a beautiful way to live.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What do you anticipate today?

[John C. Maxwell]

I anticipate every day being somewhere, meeting someone that at the end of the day that person going to say he made a difference in my life. He said something to me, he shared something with me, I watched him do this. That just kind of lifts him. So my anticipation is good things will happen to me and to you and the people I'm with. Well, if you think good things are going to happen, you want to get going. If you think bad things are going to happen, you want to procrastinate. So I mean, you just tell me about your behavior and I'll tell you basically what type of a person you are as far as. Do you, you know, and I just, I'm very fulfilled in helping people. I'm very fulfilled in helping. I'm very blessed. I do financially very well. But income doesn't do much for me at all. I'm in the impact. If you love impact, income won't be that important to you. Now I make very good money, so I'm not opposed to that. But I'm just saying. But if. Here's where I learned a long time. If income is very important to you, seldom do you make impact. It's kind of like you got to figure it out.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And you know what detractors would say? They would say, yeah, easy to say when you got all the money you need. Right, but.

[John C. Maxwell]

And I understand that, but you know, one of the.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

But even when you didn't have that money, that's what I hope people Understand,

[John C. Maxwell]

when I had nothing. And starting off in the beginning, I was a pastor, so I didn't have anything, but I was as fulfilled. In fact, people will say to me, I'll bet you're really fulfilled now. And I said, let me explain something to you. In my first little country church, when I had 30 people, I was as fulfilled then as I am now.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Impact.

[John C. Maxwell]

Impact. I'm doing my best to make a difference. And I think this is a big. I think this is. A lot of people have destination disease. They just constantly say, well, they get someone's sickness. If I could just meet that person, if I could just get there. And I look at them and say, you're chasing. Quit chasing. It's here. It's within you now. You don't need to chase it. It's not there, it's here. You know, I love the statement, no matter where you are, there you are. So take and make today count, you know? And, you know, you said something a little bit ago, Sage Belt. I had somebody ask me, they said, well, you just make people feel like they matter. And then so they said, how do you make people feel like they matter? I said, oh, that's simple. Feel like they matter again. Isn't everything simple?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It's very simple.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Just if you feel they matter, you're going to make them feel like they matter. But if you feel that they don't matter, you're not going to make them feel like they matter. I mean, if you don't value people, you're not going to add value to people. So it all begins with this foundation of valuing people and feeling that you have a part in helping people improve their life. It's all part of it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And as a father, as a husband, how has this mentality that you really have had since you were really young, how has that led you as a leader in your house?

[John C. Maxwell]

When I was 35, my books were really starting to sell well, and I had a good moment. I watched people that were. I was watching people that were successful not do really well. In other words, they were making some money and they were doing maybe getting on the tour, speaking to or whatever, but their life was not together. They were kind of falling off the side. And I kept saying, what's happening here? And I can still remember I was probably 34, 35, and I came to grips with. I needed to get a personal definition for myself of what success is. Because here's what I do believe. I believe if I don't know what success is, I think the world will Try to tell me. And I think if the world tries to tell me, I'm in trouble, especially if I listened. So I said, okay, I got to figure this out. What is success for me? And it took me a few months, probably maybe five or six months, but I came up with that was 35. I'm 79 now, so that's a long time ago. Success to me is very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most. I think that's successful. So how does that affect my family? My family, they know all my stupidity. I mean, they know everything. I mean, it's family. They know all the, you know, I mean, they know all the dumb things I've been and done in my life. But when people who really know you well really respect you, that's a great statement. That settles for me. I can flip it and say I think there's something wrong with anybody, that people who don't know them well like them better than people who do know you well. I mean, I think you got a chance. So I settled real quick that the understanding ovations I needed in life were from my family and you know, crowds. Give them to you. I thank you, it's nice, but they don't know me. But when people know you well and they love and respect you, I think that's a pretty good statement. That settles me. That anchors me. Does that make sense?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It does.

[John C. Maxwell]

So that you don't get carried away. You don't get carried away with what everybody else is thinking or saying. It's kind of like it's okay when

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

How many children?

[John C. Maxwell]

Two children, five grandchildren.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What would your children say about the father that you were?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, my daughter Elizabeth would say she's the apple of my eye. She would say that I unconditionally love her. My son Joel would say he learned how to overcome adversity and challenges because he watched me handle them, I think pretty well. And they're just great kids, both of them. Great kids. Married good. Five wonderful grandchildren. Grandchildren are better than my children. I was telling them that the other day. I was with everybody, and I was telling my five grandchildren, I said, you're so much better than my own children. And then my son Joel said, of course they are, dad. We were their parents. And I thought, okay, well, screwed that one up. But, I mean, I won't say that one anymore. But yeah, but they're just, you know, and again, families are families. They got their highs and their lows and their insurance. There's no such thing as a perfect family. But I just. Even my inner circle, the people that I'm close to, that I work with, we love each other greatly and we respect each other and care for each other. You know, Linda, my executive assistant, has been my EA for 39 years.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Has she really?

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, 39 years. You know, a lot of my people have been with you 25, 30 years. Just good people. But we stay together. But we stay together because we grow together and because we care for each other. And again, I just think that's. I think that's important in life.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I love the fact that so many people from all demographics come to you for so many different reasons.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Because there's so many different types of leadership. Certainly business. Yes. But personally and relationally, for parents, you talk about your two children and five grandchildren now. What would you advise? You've done it. Your kids have turned out well. And as the world is crazy right now and there's no one way to do it, I try to share a lot right now. My kids are 20, 22, 24. Just sharing more. So. So I can say, hey, here's where I wish I would have done something a little bit different. Try this instead of what I did. What would you tell parents who look to you, especially as you are leading as a father?

[John C. Maxwell]

First of all, I think parenting is very humbling.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It is.

[John C. Maxwell]

Every adult needs to be a parent just to be humbled. Because, I mean, you just have times. I had times in my life as a parent, I thought, I'm just screwing this up so bad. I'm just. It's not working. It's not working. In fact, talk about stupid. I decided to write a book on breakthrough parenting when my two children were teenagers. Now, that's. How do you define stupid right there? Breakthrough parenting. They're teenagers, duh. And while I was writing, my two kids went through probably the worst time in their life with me and with them and with each other. I'd call the publisher and say, oh, my gosh, this is not working. This is not working at all. And can I change the title to, like, Break Down Parenting? You know what I'm saying? And then Margaret and I would, how about Break Up Parenting? You know, I mean, we're just so. It's a very humbling thing. So I made a lot of mistakes, and there were a lot of things I wish I could have done a lot better. But here's the point. The one thing I think we did really well is that when we ready to start having our kids, we said, okay, what's important to us? Because we're not going to try to press them in every area of their life, but what are the things that we want to make sure that we pass on to them? And we said, faith is important to us. Attitude is important, important to us. Relationships are important to us. Taking responsibility is important to us. So we just picked out three or four things like that. And we said, these are the hills we die on. Everything else, we don't fight. Everything else, we don't fight. And that was. We had more wisdom than we realized at that age because. So we didn't get in a lot of stuff with our kids. We didn't have to control them in a lot of areas. There were just a lot of things, okay, it's all right. But in those few areas, we said, these are the ones we're gonna just place as a high priority.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

The fact that you knew to do that before, not once you're in it beforehand. Because you were how old when you had your first kid?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, I was 28.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John C. Maxwell]

But again, back to parenting. Good parents.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

You had the example.

[John C. Maxwell]

Any parenting that I did well was because I was parented well. And any parenting I did badly, it was because I made bad choices. But if you have a model, that's a huge advantage. You know that.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And then if you don't, okay, fine, let's talk about that. And I think this is beautiful advice to have that conversation with your husband. Wife.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yes. Definitely.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Beforehand.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. On the front end.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And I sometimes don't think I really comprehended the importance of being on the exact same page with these core values. If not, I mean, it's an uphill battle.

[John C. Maxwell]

It's an uphill battle.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Especially when they get in those teenage years.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. In fact, it's. It's hard if you do it right. It's just harder if you do it wrong. It just is. But again, that's a beautiful thing about parenting, is it allows you to have a humility that keeps. There's. Okay. I like the humanness of people, and I like my humanness, which means I don't do everything right. I have to say I'm sorry. Quite often I have to say I was wrong. Didn't work out. My bad. That's healthy. It's very healthy for us to recognize our limitations. It's very healthy for us to ask people to help. I ask people to help me all the time. I'll say I'm not any good in this area. I need you. I have to have you, because I'm not any good at it. You can help me. And I think it's good to let people know that you need them and that they make you better. Because where I am today is because I have a whole bunch of people who wanted to help me. I wouldn't be here without them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

The importance of vulnerability. To me, it's everything male, female.

[John C. Maxwell]

I agree.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh, gosh. And it's pretty obvious when people are closed off. And sometimes I get it. There's a time and place for sure, but pride is usually the only thing getting in the way. Maybe some fear, right?

[John C. Maxwell]

No question. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And what I have found is there's so much beauty and letting go of that. And when you share and are vulnerable, yes, it gets off of your shoulders and you feel a bit of relief, but that's when you're really helping. So people. People realize, oh, gosh, he's going through that too. His life is perfect. Her life is perfect.

[John C. Maxwell]

So true.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Sage, you seem quite comfortable with that.

[John C. Maxwell]

I'm very comfortable. I'm very comfortable with my own skin. If you want to impress people, talk about your success, but if you want to impact people, talk about your failures. That's what really grabs them. And people want to connect with you. The reason I say to people all the time when I go out and speak my name is John, I'm your friend, is because I'm trying to close the gap. Because one of the things I don't like about success at all is it creates a gap. When you're successful, all of a sudden, you're pulled away from a lot of the things or people that you really care for. They kind of. And so my goal, I tell people all the time, if you want friends, you'll try to close the gap. If you want fans, you'll try to widen the gap. And I don't want to be a star. I don't need to be a star. I'm not a star. Who wants to be a star? I want to be a friend. So if that's the case, then everything I say and do, I'm going to do to minimize and close that gap with people so that I can be their friend and help them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Does that make sense when you say that on stage?

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What do you see from your audience?

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, they love it. It just draws them. It draws them to me. It puts me where I want to be. Alongside of them, not above them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes.

[John C. Maxwell]

Not even in front of them. If I really had by choice, I would have the audience come up on the stage with me and we'd just all sit and talk. You do that so well. You do that. That's one of your great strengths, is you are a great connector yourself. But I would much rather them take the journey with me than me to tell them about the journey. Just come with me. Let's do it together.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And then the conversations that you have when you're able to do that, they're real.

[John C. Maxwell]

They're genuine.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What is your pros? Okay, I've been trying. This is vulnerable. I hate this topic. I hate it. I've been trying to write a book for. See, they've heard me because they're yelling at me. No, it's been years, but I haven't. I haven't tried that hard, I admit, because, okay, the excuses are legitimate. With time and, you know, lawsuits against Disney and crazy work and kids and, you know, no big deal. It's an excuse. And I have finally realized that there's a big fear that's blocking me.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, there is.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Because if I sit down and have to. I wouldn't Write it, because I need to type it. I can't read my own handwriting anymore. It's too messy. If I have to write that out, type it out, that means I have to relive it. And so I'm running away from it a little bit. And these aren't even the worst things in the world. It's just moments. And so I know I'm avoiding it, so. And I know I'm also not alone. Where there are so many people who know that they need to, even if

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it's just my mother and my father

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

and my kids who read, it, still needs to get there. So what would you tell people who are avoiding it?

[John C. Maxwell]

I can help you. First of all, don't take yourself so serious. When I talk to people about writing or communicating or even leading, I just say, you got to get over yourself. And I had a long. I had to get over myself, you know? Boy, I hope I do a good job. I hope they like me. Oh, my gosh, did I do. You know? And it was all about me. And one day I realized there isn't one person out there that came to hear me, feel good about me. They came to hear me, to get some help. And the moment I realized, it's not about me, it's all about the people. So don't take yourself serious. I tell people all the time, you ought to laugh at yourself more, because everyone else is. So just relax. It isn't about me, and it isn't about you. So that's the first thing. The second thing I'd say is I think that I tell people, why do you have to write a book? Just start writing and make it a book. There's a world of difference between the two. What I would encourage you to do is get up and write about things that you want to write about, and then categorize them, put them under different headings, and after a while, they'll start to form. And that you'll. A book is kind of daunting. I mean, you sit there and think, good lord, I got 180 pages, or how many words I've got to do. And it's kind of like I'm kind of worn out before I ever start. Well, I tell people all the time. I mean, when I say every day I write, it doesn't mean I write all day. It just means every day I write. And so that might be on a short leash, like today. It could be. I wrote in the green room a little bit today, but it could be maybe only three or four paragraphs. But I wrote some days it could be pages, but I wrote you just, you know, you write one word at a time. And so what I would say to you is, don't try to write a book. Just write things that you're thinking upon. Put them on paper. Because when you put them on paper, when you type them, when you see what you think, the moment you see it visually, it's more impacting to you and it's more life changing. So what I tell people all the time is just, just put down some thoughts that you have, put them in categories, and after a while, you'll fall in love with writing. And then when you fall in love with writing, then writing a book won't be that big of a deal. But you have something very valuable to say, and you need to get out of your comfort zone and say, get over myself. Yeah, get over yourself. You're not into yourself. You're beautiful.

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

just normal, and it's not.

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

now I have no choice because I just had John C. Maxwell tell me let go.

[John C. Maxwell]

And again, it doesn't have to be pages. Yeah, it can be a paragraph.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Whenever I have sat down and focused, I mean, then I'm going, then I don't want to stop. Of course you get a real.

[John C. Maxwell]

No, no, that's it's. Very fulfilling, but you have to get in it. And what I tell people all the time is you got to have a way to get in it. And the way that you get in it is, I'm not sitting down to write a book today. I'm sitting down to write a thought.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Write a thought.

[John C. Maxwell]

You know, there's a couple sentences I like to express on paper and then see what happens.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

That seems so much more doable. Less is more, I think, the overwhelming aspect of the book. You're right.

[John C. Maxwell]

No, no.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

You can break it down into simple chapters of three to four pages.

[John C. Maxwell]

Like, that was my first book. Four pages.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Exactly. Exactly.

[John C. Maxwell]

Hey, what I love about that is anybody could do that. I look at anybody and say, could you do four pages? Yeah. Well, then, all right, you're on your way.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I wrote down several of my favorite John Maxwell isms. Okay. And this stems from your current book, your new book. Number 92.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Number 92.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Goodness gracious.

[John C. Maxwell]

All that means is I'm old.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It means more than that.

[John C. Maxwell]

No, no. If you write 92, you have to be old. You can't write 92 books when you're in your 20s. You can't do it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What is that, math per year since your first book?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, I started writing in 79, so. 79. What's that would be. What have we got, 45, 46 years? About two a year. That's a lot. Yeah, about two a year.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

That's a lot.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, it is.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh, my goodness.

[John C. Maxwell]

But I write every day. Yeah, if you write every day, it's not a lot. If you only write once a month, it probably is a lot.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes. So by the time I'm 79, I might be on chapter six. We're going to get there. Hold me accountable. Every time I see you at these,

[John C. Maxwell]

I'll say, sage, how's the book?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

No, what thoughts? What thoughts have you written down?

[John C. Maxwell]

That's right.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

That's a better question.

[John C. Maxwell]

You can ask again. Don't write a book right now. Just put your thoughts down.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Success and failure belong together.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. That's so true.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Ouch.

[John C. Maxwell]

They complement each other when we separate them. In my book on that's out Right now, just came out right now. How to get a return on failure. When success and failure are together, they complement each other. When they're separate, they compete with each other. And I learned that lesson in my learning lunches that when we, like seven questions. First question is, what's the most important lesson you ever learned in your life? And after asking that to hundreds of people over 40 years. What I discovered is in every, every time, not most times, when I ask, what's the most important lesson you ever learned in your life? Every time they'll talk about adversity, difficulty, problems, lost a marriage, went bankrupt, had an illness, and all of a sudden it hit me right smack dab in. The most important lessons people ever learn is adversity. You can't learn that greatest lesson without it. And then all of a sudden I said, they learned the lesson because they kept it there. You take the adversity out, you've lost the lesson. And so when I'm succeeding, if I keep failure close to my success, it gives me humility, I don't become arrogant. If you're succeeding and you remove failure, you just become an arrogant ass, you become unbearable. If I'm failing, I keep success right beside that failure because it gives me resiliency, gets me back in the game, encourages me to get back up. So you put them together. If you keep them together, they make sense and they complement each other. You separate them and you get lost. It's that simple.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What was your biggest failure?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, I've had so many of them. It's a spiritual gift in my life. I, I always say, one of the things I tell people is I sometimes say my biggest failure was my first big failure because it was so climactic. I mean, I thought, oh my gosh, I just was, you know, it was terrible, how could I been so stupid? And then I'll process and you know, I was just a young 23 year old kid, hired my first staff member, loved him and, and we did everything together. And I was very naive. I said, I think we'll do ministry together all of our life. I mean, how dumb is that? And two years later I had to fire him. And I allowed him to get close to me and it hurt so bad. I said, I'm not going to get hurt again. I'll hire people, but I'm not going to let them get close to me. I'm just going to. You do your job, I'll do my job, which was wrong. And so for a year I did that. And what I found out is the good news is if you don't let people close to you, the good news is they won't hurt you. The bad news is they won't help you either. So all of a sudden I said, hurt and help go together. Don't separate them again. So when people say, what's your biggest failure? I have some. I sometimes think the first failure is the Biggest only because it will mark you whether you're going to improve and get better with failure or whether you're going to just kind of say, wow, that's a bad word in my life. You know, Mark Twain said, if a cat sits on a hot stove, that cat won't sit on a hot stove again. He said, the cat won't sit on a cold stove either. Cat just don't like stove. And I think that. So sometimes I think the. I don't know. The biggest failure is the first failure. And how did you react and respond to it?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Because then it's a choice.

[John C. Maxwell]

It's a choice. And remember, failure is never the problem. In fact, I think one of the things I love about the book, failure is never the problem. It's my response to that failure that determines whether it was a good miss or a bad mission. It's not the failure. So when somebody says, what was your biggest failure? I want to say, tell me what your response was. Because I have friends, they'll talk about their failures. And when it's all done, I just want to ask and tell them, what did you learn?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Right.

[John C. Maxwell]

Because if you learn something, it's going to be a good miss.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Today, when you were speaking, this was the topic, and you mentioned a billionaire, an unnamed billionaire big leader who you spoke about this with and asked him about failures and what he would change.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, what would you do over? I said, what would you do over with your. If you could go back and do over your failures, which ones would you do over? He said, I wouldn't do over any of them. And that was. You wouldn't do over failure? I mean, whoever heard of such a thing? What he said to me really was the catalyst for this book I just wrote. He said two things. He said, I wouldn't go back and do over or erase my failures because if I did, I'd have to erase the lessons I learned from them. And he said, the lessons I learned are much more valuable to me than the failure I had. I thought, oh, my gosh. And then he said, secondly, he said if I went back and erased them, I would lose my character because I developed my character. And in the dark times, I learned how to be courageous when I didn't have courage and how to be resilient when I wanted to give up. And so I became bigger on the inside. So he said, I wouldn't do any of my failures over because of the lessons I learned and the character developed. And it was in that statement I said, I have to write a book. On how to get a return on failure. That was like 20 years ago that. And of course, the book just came out now. But I thought that day he taught me how to get a return on failure. Learn the lessons, develop the character.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And I've often said that recently for myself as well, just because, I mean, we might not want to face the fact that all those things had to happen to build that character, but they had to happen. But they had to happen in exactly that way, in that order, in that time. And you had to be broken and hurt and embarrassed and all the things.

[John C. Maxwell]

But if you respond correctly, you'll be broken in all the right places. And if you respond incorrectly, you'll be broken in all the wrong places. It's the response to the failure. And that's what my greatest desire for people when they read the book is just to understand failure is not the problem, it's the response to the failure that either is an asset or a liability.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And then you go back for me to the vulnerability part, because then once you learn from it, please share, please tell people about that.

[John C. Maxwell]

Absolutely. Because one of the things early lessons I learned as a very young leader is that it's very important for me to share my losses and misses and failures with my audience. It allows me to have credibility with them. And then it also allows them to say, look where he is. And he's had losses. I can get there, too, so many times.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And they're still choosing to come out here and tell us about them and smile and hi, I'm John. I'm your friend.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, that's right.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And mean that.

[John C. Maxwell]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

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[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And breathe.

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[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

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[John C. Maxwell]

1-800-contacts.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Let's see. Yes. Oh, I love this one because I just don't see it. Humility is the most important quality a leader can possess.

[John C. Maxwell]

Totally.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

The number in 31 years in television. The number of. I mean, I'm being judgy, fine, good leaders that I had I could count on one hand.

[John C. Maxwell]

Sad.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And the reason is because they refused to be humble and accountable. And I always said if they if they just said, hey, my bad, I

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

would run through a wall for them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

But then they repeatedly accept pointing the finger and not coming down in the trenches with you. There's a lack of humility and accountability in leadership today.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, yeah. Ego pride.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. It's very sad. And what it does is instead of fostering and nourishing and bringing out the best in people, it reduces them. It minimalizes them all the time. Yeah. But it's very sad. I remember one time, say, which election? But I remember I was getting ready to watch two presidential candidates in a debate, and I really didn't care for either one of them. And so I made a decision. I said, I think I will vote for the person that admits they did something wrong in the debate. Just look at the camera and say, I could have done that better. I'm going to vote for him. Just. And of course, neither one of them.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Neither one.

[John C. Maxwell]

It was.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Exactly.

[John C. Maxwell]

And I sat there and I thought, well, there we go again. I didn't even get to pick a candidate because no one just raised their hand and said, yeah, I didn't do that. Right. And yet that is so who we are. And it's very sad to me. It's a very sad picture of leadership that doesn't have the. The willingness to just look and say, yeah, I could have done better.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh, because they have the ability. It's the willingness.

[John C. Maxwell]

No, it's the willingness.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And then, you know, these are the people that are running the companies, the Fortune 500 companies, the countries, the world like it is. It's so sad because I don't think they realize the difference they could make by just, oh, yeah, again, being human, being like a real person.

[John C. Maxwell]

And the people would fall in love with it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Oh, my goodness.

[John C. Maxwell]

It's just. It's just not that I don't think people want a perfect leader.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

No.

[John C. Maxwell]

But I do think they want an authentic leader.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yeah.

[John C. Maxwell]

And I think that's the Ms.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Easier said than done.

[John C. Maxwell]

We don't have the authenticity.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I've given up on that. And I'm a glass half full person, but I've pretty much given up on any politician.

[John C. Maxwell]

I'm leadership sad, too. We live way beneath our privileges, that's for sure. I'm leadership sad.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yeah. Is that, I mean, is it just being realistic where we say, you know what, in this little part of our society, politicians, we just need to lower the bar.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Well, when you lower the bar on your leaders, you're in trouble.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

But if that's what the leaders have shown us by Refusing to be accountable and vulnerable and humble at times.

[John C. Maxwell]

No, no. Lack of accountability is huge. It's a huge loss in leadership, no doubt about it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So we do what we can on our own.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Oh, gosh, again, this is simple.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Maybe this goes back to the adversity, but anticipating failure, this is part of your book as well. I mean, it's going to come. We're going to fall on our faces, right?

[John C. Maxwell]

Anticipating failure is not negative. It's wise, because we are going to have losses. And I learned that when I wrote My book, the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. We literally, only people with high energy and low IQ would do this. But we got on a jet, and for seven days, we did three cities a day. 21 cities, 21 laws. Started on the east coast, ended up in San Diego. Breakfast at one city, lunch at another city, dinner in another city with an audience of 1,000 people. And I would talk about. And then. So by the time we got to San Diego, the book was already a bestseller. So we're coming back into Atlanta on a Learjet, and we're probably 50ft from the ground, and we hit a wind shear, and the plane just dropped straight down. And instead of dropping straight, just a little sideways. And I thought, we're going to flip. And that pilot, when the wheels hit that pavement, he had that. I mean, he just, like that, had that plane back up there, circle a couple times, came back down safe. You know, I get off the plane, kiss the ground. Pilot comes out, I kiss the pilot, you know, thank you. And I looked at him and I said, that decision you made was so quick. You saved our life. I said, just tell me, how could you make a decision that quick? And his words were just so good. He said, it was not a quick decision at all. He said, I made it 20 years ago. I said, you're kidding. He said, when I realized I was going to be a pilot, I asked myself, what are all the things that are going to cause problems flying a plane? Listed them all out. And he said, one of the things I settled is if I land wrong, I'm getting in the air as quick as I can because there's a lot more give in the air than there is on the land. And that day, all of a sudden, it hit me. He anticipated a failure that allowed him, when he had it, to know exactly what to do. And I think that's just. In fact, in the book, I have a chapter on anticipating failure and how it can be an asset, not a liability.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

And in that case, it Saved your life. It saved lives.

[John C. Maxwell]

No question. No question. But see, he had thought it through again. He had a. You know, he stayed in a realistic world. If you're flying, you've got danger, and if you've got danger, what are you going to do? What are the steps? And so he kind of laid it all out there and said, if this happens, this is what I'll do. And checkmate. And so when we landed wrong 20 years ago, he said, go back up. And it was a great lesson.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Amazing.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Embrace hard.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Well, I think that this is the greatest challenge in our culture today is we want. We have a great sense of entitlement, which is terrible. We have a real sense of whatever I want, I want it now. I don't want to have to wait for it. And, you know, what I teach Sage, as you know, is everything worthwhile is uphill. And it is. And there's nothing in your life that you are proud of. There wasn't uphill. You had to climb. You had to climb. I had to climb. Everybody has to climb. If you don't climb. No one ever coasted to a desired location. They just don't. We don't do that. And so Embracing Hard, it comes out of a book by Scott Packone. There was a tremendous book that impacted my life called the Road Less Traveled. And he just starts it off by saying, life is difficult. So if you and I know life is difficult, you know, disappointment is the gap between expectation and reality.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Disappointment is the gap.

[John C. Maxwell]

Is the gap between. So let's say my expectations of something I'm going to do is real high. Reality is. Here's where it was. Well, that's a big disappointment. Maybe it was just this. That's a little disappointment. But the gap between expectation and reality. So what Scott Peck does is. Scott Peck helps us. It's like anticipating failure. He said, let me explain something to you. Life is difficult. Get that expectation way down. It's not easy. You're not going to get out of it alive. In fact, it's difficult. That allows us then to cope with the challenges and difficulties and not feel that we're being picked on or life's not fair, or why don't I get the breaks? I just wrote a lesson the other day on most people are looking for breaks. Leaders look for breakthroughs. So, yeah, anticipating failure. Embracing hard. And once you embrace it, then you've bought into it. Now, you don't go in and say, oh, I thought this would be easy. I thought it would be hard. And it was hard. And I made it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It doesn't have that ownership over you, that power over you, because again, it goes back to anticipating. Totally.

[John C. Maxwell]

Very true.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

You can't go from excuses to success.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Because excuses give you a reason in your mind, a valid reason for not doing what you should do. No one has ever succeeded not doing what they should do. So you got to go do what you should do, and you got to eliminate. You can go from failure to success, but you can't go from excuses to success. And I teach that the worst excuse is your best excuse because you believe it.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

The worst excuse is your. Yes.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Because we go to it all the time. We say, oh, my gosh, you know, this is why I did. And we believe it after a while.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes.

[John C. Maxwell]

And if you believe a best excuse, it's an excuse.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

We have uphill hopes, downhill habits.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Isn't that true?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

So true.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. And again, the downhill habits of I deserve this or I shouldn't have to wait, all that. You just. You have no shot of climbing a hill. If you want to coast, you just have no shot.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I want to end on this one because it's something you shared with Dave and me when we had our learning lunch in Jupiter, Florida, and we've talked a lot about it since, and it's financial. And you told us to pick a number. Pick a number so that when you reach your number, whatever that financial goal is, everything else beyond that that you make, you can give away, you can share.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Well, I would say I love that thought. It's a deep thought. The first thing I would just say is, before I talk about, pick a number for a moment, is that if you don't give when you have little, you won't give when you have a lot. So I run to people all the time, say, well, when I get to a certain place, then I'll start giving. And I said, no, if you're selfish without anything, you'll be selfish with something. You're just selfish. So let's deal with what the issue is.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Have you said that to people before?

[John C. Maxwell]

Oh, totally.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

What's their reaction?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, if they're selfish, they don't like it. But let me just say some of the most generous people I've ever known were people who didn't have a lot, but they were very generous. So generosity is not a result of having a lot of money. Generosity, it's a heart issue. But. So I want to state that, because sometimes I think we think we have to have a lot before we can give something. And I said, no. If you're not giving now, you won't give then. So that's important. But the picking the number is very challenging and I think very helpful, because financially, if you don't pick a number, you'll be greedy. I'm greedy, you're greedy. Everybody knows greedy. You know, John Rockefeller in the industrial age was the wealthiest man in the world. And they asked him, how much is enough? And he said, it's never enough. In other words, if I have a billion, I need 2 billion. If I have 2, I need 3 billion. So what happens is, if we don't pick a number, we move the financial goalpost all the time. And so it's kind of like, why never have enough? And, well, I could have this. Why I haven't had that. What happens here? But once you pick a number, then all of a sudden you say, okay, this is what I need to live on, and I want everybody to live very well. I'm not trying to make people not live well. But once you pick a number, it's enough. Now everything. And I did that 20 years ago, picked a number, and I've been blessed, and I'm there now. So I really work to give the money away. And that's a beautiful thing. And so I, you know, I mean, I don't need to work, but because I do work, look how much more I can give. And so every year, Margaret and I intentionally raise our level of giving. Not our standard of living, but our standard of giving, we raise every year. And we can, because we picked a number. But if I didn't pick a number, I would spend it on me. And you say, why would you spend it on me? Because I'm greedy. You're greedy, we're all greedy. It's kind of like, well, what else could I have instead of what can I give? I think it's very important for everybody to. And I don't tell people what their number should be. I just say, pick it. Because once you pick it, then it's all settled. There are two stories with my life, your life, with everybody's life. There are two stories we can tell. I can tell the story of me, it's okay. Or I can tell the story of what I did for others. One's pretty small, one's pretty big. I want to tell the story of what I did for others. If I pick a number, I can tell that story. If I don't pick that number, I won't have that story to tell. So I think it's just a. It's kind of like, nail it, put it down. And I tell people there are emergencies. It's not like that number is the Ten Commandments. So there might be a year where you just say, oh, my gosh, this was a disastrous year. And things, you know, so it isn't. But pick a number. If you don't pick a number, you didn't pick a number. And I just. And how much do you need? How much do you. I mean, really. I mean, I have great friends. I do a mentoring project with billionaires and I look at them and say, really? Now tell me what the difference is between 2 and 3 billion. I mean, oh, when you got from 2 to 3 billion, you got to buy a better car. Well, that's nice. You buy a better car, but you already got a billion. I mean, you already have everything that you need. Now it's not what do I need, it's what do I want versus what could I give.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Big difference.

[John C. Maxwell]

Big difference. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

I am so grateful for you. And so I need to thank your parents because you did hit the parent lottery, didn't you? I mean, they are the reason why you are able to have this wisdom and share it. What do you think your parents would say today about the man they raised?

[John C. Maxwell]

Well, my mother would just say, I always believed that you would be that person because she unconditionally loved me. And my father would say, the values he taught me have served me very, very well. My father died at 98. He just died in Covid, and he didn't die at Covid at all. He had three or four strokes and then finally took his life. But anyway, two days before he died, I went in and he was in hospice. And I just asked the nurses, I said, can I have him for about four or five hours without medicines or anything, and is there a time? And they said, yes. So I went into his bedside and I sat down and I said, dad, I'm going to talk to you now about all the lessons you taught me in life. And I would tell him a lesson he taught me and how I applied it to my life. Then I would get up and go over and kiss him on the cheek and tell him how much I loved him. I'd sit down and give him the second lesson, how I apply it to my life and kiss him on the cheek and love him. 29 lessons, five hours later, kissed him and said goodbye to him. Yeah, God's goodness and good parenting. I better do well in life or both my parents and God will kick me in the butt, won't they? I Bet they will.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

They will. You've done good.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, well, I'm going to keep doing good. We're still in the game, aren't we?

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Yes, sir.

[John C. Maxwell]

We're not going to. I'm going to die in the saddle. You know what I mean? I'm just.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Thank you.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Thank you for.

[John C. Maxwell]

Thank you, Satan.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Choosing this.

[John C. Maxwell]

You've become a beautiful friend. I love you dearly.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Thank you so much.

[John C. Maxwell]

And I thank God for all the good things you do for so many people. You've been. You've been living this significant life.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

It's my.

[John C. Maxwell]

It's who you are job based on

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

the gifts that we were given.

[John C. Maxwell]

And that's what makes you so beautiful. You're beautiful on the inside. And you know, when you're good on the inside, you don't ever have to worry about the outside.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Good. Because I can't fix this right now.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, we don't need this. But that's the message everybody needs to see anyway. That's a good message. It's a message of care and love and desire to make a difference. And that's who you are. That's why I'm on your show. Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Thank you for taking the time. I know you're heading back home and you took a lot of extra time from me, but thank you for sharing, especially that last story with your dad.

[John C. Maxwell]

Yeah, God bless you.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Thank you.

[John C. Maxwell]

You're very special. Very, very special.

[Interviewer (Sage Steele)]

Thank you.

[John C. Maxwell]

Thank you very much.

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[John C. Maxwell]

started Ornod in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end, and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.

[Shopify Testimonial Speaker]

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