Kristen Hawkins (2:03)

No. Abortion is the intentional destruction of an innocent human life that was created in God's image.

Sage (2:10)

You have heard it probably hundreds of thousands of times of how insensitive we are to victims of rape and incest, etc. And for those who aren't familiar with your content, you say what? I'm so happy to see you in person and not just like blowing up my feed constantly. Because that's what you do. And I am so grateful for that.

Kristen Hawkins (2:36)

It's nice to meet you too. No, it's funny because people see you out, they're like, yes, I exist outside of Instagram. I'm a real life person. You can talk to me.

Sage (2:47)

Exactly. Okay, I'm gonna go right in. Because one of the things that stood out to me and millions of other people right away was, okay, this woman does not hold back with any of her beliefs. And she is out there and she will debate anybody. And she is aggressive, and I dare you to challenge her to debate. Here's things that I love that you've said. My talent is getting people to say what their position is and exposing them. Explain.

Kristen Hawkins (3:18)

Yeah, I think, you know, I'll meet students, I'll meet folks, you know, on the airplane. He'll say, oh, my gosh, you've changed my mind, Bob Orshin. And I don't. I'm not like a theology expert. I'm not a philosopher. I'm an activist. I don't think I have any great talent. You're not gonna see me using like these huge big words and explain all the existential crisis, the metaphysical question you're asking. No, I'm just really good at making people actually say what it is that's going on in their mind when they're defending abortion. And that's what changes minds. Like, I was doing a debate recently with Dr. Reverend Caleb Hines. He's like a TikTok. I saw that. Yeah, he's a TikTok. He has more TikTok followers than me. I don't know how this happens. I'm like, why? And I was asking him questions about his view on Christ on. I mean, he basically admitted he didn't believe in the Trinity, which doesn't make some non Christian, like, all of these things. And this gentleman came up to me at the end, started crying, and was like, oh, my gosh, this debate. And this was like a pro life audience. So I didn't really know there were going to be pro choice people in the crowd. And he said, you changed my mind. And I was like, well, what? What did I say? Like, what did I do? And he was like, you just, you know, you just made him keep saying what he believed. And I kept thinking, he sounds like an idiot. And then I realized that's what I sound like. And so it wasn't me. I didn't say anything. I just made Reverend Dr. Lines or whatever his name is come out and actually say what he believes and the illogical positions that he had to assume to justify his pro life beliefs. And I think that's I just make people mad enough to say what they really thought.

Sage (5:07)

That's the other thing. I make them mad enough that they want to talk to me. So your intent, your goal is to piss them off?

Kristen Hawkins (5:17)

Yeah, because I, I mean, change only ever happens at the point of conflict. And I think we have to remember that. As I'm not, I'm an activist, my goal is to move the ball down the court, get as closer to a nation that rejects the violence of abortion, where no woman ever feels like she has to choose abortion again or no child, innocent child, is destroyed by this violent act. And we're always moving the ball down the court. But to do that, you have to engage. It can't be passive. And if you look at any of the social movements of our history, you have to produce conflict. Let me look at the Civil Rights movement. The Civil Rights movement. I mean, this was controversial because there were different factions within the movement. There was ACLU and then you had SNCC and then you had the pastors. But they intentionally chose cities and said, we're going to go to Birmingham, we're going to raise a ruckus in Birmingham, we're going to go to Selma, we're going to go here, we're going to go to Memphis. And that was intentional to create that conflict that was needed to force those conversations to happen to, to force the nation's TV cameras to pay attention to what was happening. And so you have to produce the conflict. And I think that's hard sometimes because if you're a conflict resistant person, it's like, ah, I don't wanna do that. But until you produce that conflict, you're not gonna have that conversation and there's nothing to fear. You know, if I always tell our students at Students for Life, like even if you are new to this movement, you're simply exposing the darkness of abortion. And light will always find its way. And so you don't have to know the best defense or the most savvy thing to say in 10 seconds. You simply have to ask the questions and you have to bring up the darkness of what happens and truth will find its way.

Sage (7:13)

You simplify it in the minds, like as you're helping and teaching these students to understand all the aspects of this and then how to communicate does have to be broken down probably so that no matter what someone comes back at you with, you go back to the facts, period. Mm. Yeah. I like to say things that make people uncomfortable. I like that.

Kristen Hawkins (7:38)

Yeah, I think my HR manager would probably have different views about that it's. No, yeah, no. I do like to be the contrarian. Or if you're having an argument, I'll just argue from the other side just to see how it takes shape and what the views are on the other side. But I think it's important. You can't have. And you can't be a pro life activist. You can't defend your beliefs if you can't argue from both sides. I always joke I could have probably done a better job arguing the Supreme Court to defend Roe vs. Wade than the center for Reproductive Rights to did in the Dobbs decision. They sucked at it. I was like, I can do a better job because I've studied your own arguments. I know exactly what your arguments are. So you have to understand both sides of the argument in order to really start getting to the heart of the matter and having those really hard conversations with those you're trying to move. Because at the end of the day, I'm trying to talk and I want to talk to those who disagree with me. So I need to understand exactly what's going on through their minds, what they're thinking, what they've heard, so I can get to the heart of the matter.

Sage (8:45)

Where does that come from? This, like, fearlessness, frankly, to just go there.

Kristen Hawkins (8:52)

I mean. I mean, that's God, right? That's the Holy Spirit. I think that's what's so cool about, you know, serving or choosing to kind of serve in the pro life movement is that we've all been given talents, we've all been given unique qualities by our creator. And we can all take whatever we have, whatever our history is, our story, our experience, and we can use it to advance this mission to end abortion. And I think that's one of the things God gave me, was this grittiness and perseverance to overcome being disliked or being made fun of or being cyberbullied or being bullied into your face on a campus where those things don't bother me like they would bother other people. Right. But that's just. That's just how God made me. And I think you have to, as an activist and someone who wants to advance, you know, this massive cultural change. And I always have to tell our students, it's like, just remember, like, what is real life? What is your goal? Are you upset that someone's being mean to you in the comment section of X or Instagram? That's not real life. What's real life? Real life is we want to end abortion. We're gonna speak up for those who have no voice. We're gonna speak to the mothers who are being lied and deceived and told that they have no other choice other than paying someone to end the life of their child. That's real life. That baby we get to hold, that baby, we get to meet. That's real life. This is not. That's not real.

Sage (10:33)

Gosh, the sooner you can teach that. What a blessing. It took me like almost half a century to be like, okay, if you don't like me, that's fine. That's your loss. I'm actually kind of nice. You might not like my opinions, but that doesn't mean that you can't, you know, be friends or be at least be kind. And I think that's the part where I hope and pray. That's why I say to young women and men all the time, just let go of trying to please everybody, because you're gonna fail.

Kristen Hawkins (10:59)

Yeah.

Sage (10:59)

I mean, we all know who you should be trying to please, right? But it is a difficult thing. I feel like the fact that you're saying it, but then doing it, you know, you're backing it up with your actions. And now you've got how many different chapters of Students for life?

Kristen Hawkins (11:17)

Over 1600 chapters across the country, high school, college campuses, met in law schools. We just trained our 250th,000 student. So, yeah, it's unbelievable what God can do.

Sage (11:32)

Oh, my gosh, that is beautiful. Was that the goal?

Kristen Hawkins (11:38)

I mean, if I look back at my newly minted 21 year old self and I launched Students for Life, I don't think. No, I was not smart enough, creative enough to envision what Students for Life has turned into. I mean, yes, the goal when we launched Students for Life was to take what I had learned when I was in high school, what I learned when I was in college, and teach other students to do the same thing. That you can stand up, you can face your administrators, you can overcome the First Amendment violations, you can talk to your peers. Those are most directly targeted by abortion. You can make a difference in impact. But to say, did I know? Like, it was gonna turn into this massive army. I wish I was that cool.

Sage (12:24)

No, for sure. But it's amazing to have a vision to just teach and then you never know where it goes. I want to get into that entire story. And of course, you're a mama of four. But I mean, the viral clips, and they do go super viral. Like, sometimes I step back and I'm like, oh, my goodness. Because of what they say to you. And then your Reaction is beautiful. I'm like, I wish I had half of her brain. I want to share something truly hopeful with you today. Last year alone, over 80,000 babies were saved because of faithful supporters of preborn. Every day, thousands of women hear the same devastating lie. That abortion is their only option, that they're alone, that no one will help them. But everything changes the moment a mother in crisis walks into a Preborn Network clinic. Preborn exists to make motherhood possible by providing free ultrasound so a mom can see the life growing inside of her, often for the very first time. And that moment, it really does change everything. It doubles her chance of choosing life. Because it's not just an image on a screen. This is a child made in the image of God. And preborn doesn't stop at birth. They surround moms with real practical support. Cribs, diapers, formula, clothing, parenting classes, medical care, and ongoing encouragement up to two years at no cost. They're not just helping babies survive, they're helping families thrive. One preborn donor shared this powerful truth. My mother chose life. That's why I'm here. And that's why I donate to preborn, because to help other mothers choose life. It's amazing. So for just $28, you can provide one life saving ultrasound. That's all it takes to give. Simply call £250 and say, Baby, that's £250, baby. Or visit preborn.com sage that's preborn.com sage but can you give, like, give an example of something that really ended up super positive? And I know there's been many of those. You gave the example a second ago, right, where a man came up to you afterwards and it's like, he sounds like an idiot and that's me. But what are some examples of those moments and how that makes you feel? Like, okay, you know the cliche if I change one mind? But it's true.

Kristen Hawkins (14:48)

No, and it's funny because sometimes within the pro life kind of Christian sphere, you'll hear things of like, oh, you shouldn't be doing those videos because you know they're mad at you. You're making people look like idiots online.

Sage (15:05)

Sorry.

Kristen Hawkins (15:06)

I mean, I did have, you know, I did have, like, posters warning you, right? You know, you're not being charitable or Christian when you post those videos out to those people. And certainly we don't want anyone to, you know, go in the comments section and make fun of the person who's making the stupid argument. We can tear down the argument without tearing down the person. And as Christians, we should all be able to do that now. Sadly, I don't think a lot of people have learned that lesson, especially on X. But what's interesting to me is by putting out those clips, of the amount of people I've been able to meet, I've been able to hear from, I mean, former Planned Parenthood workers, they're like, I saw your video. I hated your guts. Which is, you know, common. And then I watched every video on your YouTube. Yeah, no, I mean, and now I don't. I quit Planned Parenthood. Right. I've gotten to meet children who. Rebecca. This one young woman I met, she had reached out to me. I think it was on the DMs of Instagram. She was a college student, was dating someone her parents didn't approve, living in her car, and she was living behind the diner that she was waitressing while a college student, so very determined, gets pregnant, knows abortion's wrong, mentally, has always had that thought, abortion's wrong. But then now she's faced with this terrible circumstance that she's homeless, living in her car. Now she's pregnant, not in a relationship with her parents, no support system. And she's like, I stumbled upon your video, and I just. In one night, I watched every video of yours on YouTube and I just knew I couldn't choose abortion, you know, and then getting to meet Baby Mercer, who's named after my maiden name, it's incredible, right?

Sage (16:57)

So you.

Kristen Hawkins (16:58)

He's like the fifth most beautiful child I've ever met in my life.

Sage (17:00)

Since you have four. Yeah, I got it. No, but so you actually got to meet her. She reached out to you?

Kristen Hawkins (17:05)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got to hold.

Sage (17:08)

That makes me cry.

Kristen Hawkins (17:10)

Yeah.

Sage (17:10)

No, thinking about the fact that he is on this earth because of you. I mean, obviously, her decision. I'm not trying to give you.

Kristen Hawkins (17:17)

No, I mean, it's because. Because of these courageous students who started as Students for Life group, who hosted me on campus, and then some stupid liberal pro choice student who hated my guts, who wanted to come yell at me like this. And I actually know the video. So the. It was one of the first times I've been going to campuses for years. And we didn't really start filming until right before kind of COVID We started filming. That's when it started to get really kind of unhinged on campuses. And one of the first viral videos we had. And it was a total crap day for the Hawkins family because we were living in our camper. We traveled the country for, like, four years. In our camper. And so we didn't have a house. And so we were in Houston and I had this brilliant idea of like, I'm speaking at UT San Antonio. Let's get everybody up. All four kids. And at the time, we had three puppies. Now I have four, because I'm also crazy. We're gonna take the four puppies in a camper. Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna take our truck and get up at 5 in the morning and we're gonna put everybody in the truck. We're gonna drive to San Antonio because we're history. I mean, we're white middle classers. What else do we do besides tour battlefields? Right? So we're gonna go to the Alamo, and I found like a daycare for the dogs because Alamo doesn't let you bring your puppies. So we put the dogs in daycare, go to the Alamo, we walk around San Antonio. And then I had to do this TV show thing. So I dropped the kids off at like a Quality Inn Hotel with the dogs. We snuck the dogs in, I ordered them Domino's Pizza, had it delivered. I went to this TV show and then I went to this campus.

Sage (18:52)

Your husband's with the kids and the dog.

Kristen Hawkins (18:54)

This is like, let's make sure before you. Yeah, my husband is there. I have not, you know, left my kids at the Quality of Life because

Sage (19:00)

I ordered them pizza.

Kristen Hawkins (19:01)

It's fine. I mean, I fed everybody. So this day was a total crap day. I show up this campus, like, totally frazzled, exhausted, because, yeah, it was kind of a lot to take on that day of managing all the chaos. I get to this campus and there's these crazy protesters and there's this girl, Darby, and she comes up with this poster, and I just go through the entire pro life, basically argument with her, and her and I doing this interaction. She can't answer basic questions and she's holding a sign. She's looking to her friends for help. That girl, I should have paid for her college because she has made more pro lifers and has probably saved more babies. And it's all from that one video. And so, like, I know baby Mercer is here because Darby was so mad at me that she came to the UT San Antonio. I went. My hair wasn't even brushed. I agreed to do it. I was like, cursing myself as I was walking in. Like, why did I agree to do it all this one day? Because of her. Baby Mercer's here.

Sage (20:05)

Oh, my gosh.

Kristen Hawkins (20:06)

So it's. Yeah, it's not me. It's them. It's the Students for Life group that was dealing with Darby. And she always would come up and, like, yell at them. Then Darby came. They invited Darby to come to my speech. Yeah, that's why Baby Mercer's here.

Sage (20:21)

That's the why.

Kristen Hawkins (20:21)

Yeah, absolutely.

Sage (20:24)

When you go on certain campuses, I imagine you're more prepared than others for the ugliness. Or is it kind of. I mean, we know what the education system is like now, and especially higher academia and colleges and universities versus high schools, I guess. Yeah, but are there places where you're like, okay, I definitely need security, or do you always have security?

Kristen Hawkins (20:46)

Yeah, I mean, when I started going to campuses and doing the more aggressive debates and things like that and the tabling, I didn't have security. And it wasn't until about two and a half years ago I started getting some security. My security is obviously, now, since Charlie was assassinated, has quadrupled, but went from one to four. But, yeah. No. And the thing is, sometimes you never really know. So sometimes I'll go to a campus, I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's going to be totally unhinged on this campus. There's Democrat, socialists. And then, like, no one shows up because there was a protest last week and everyone's tired. Like, honest to goodness, like, I went to this one campus, I was like, you guys told me there's gonna be always protesters. They're like, yeah, they had a big protest last night. They're all. So it just depends, right? I've gone to campuses, like, before Charlie was murdered, he and I would text because I would be on the campus I was at. Right. The day before Charlie was shot, actually, I was at University of Montana, Bozeman, my Montana State Bozeman. All these people came out because they were mad that Charlie was coming in two weeks, and so they were yelling at me that he was coming. So it just depends on what's going on. And so sometimes you'll go to a campus, you think, oh, it's gonna be totally chill here. Nothing's gonna happen. I'm always complaining. So I'm like, it's gonna be boring. There's only gonna be pro lifers to talk to. And then it's the most unhinged person you've ever met. So you just. I never know who God puts in my path and who he wants me to talk to. And sometimes I think, oh, well, this is how it's going to go. And then it totally transforms into something else.

Sage (22:26)

Sometimes, you know, some of the students Adults as well, who have the most hatred and vitriol in them with their words and even their mannerisms. There's a moment at first it's like, oh my gosh, what's wrong with this person? And then I don't know if you ever feel this. There's this like, I have, like, sympathy and sorrow for them because the way that they're speaking means it probably isn't even about this one issue. It's something deeper.

Kristen Hawkins (22:53)

You've hit the nail on the head because I get asked a lot from pro lifers of, you know, how do you maintain your calmness? Right. And I'm like, first of all, I do not feel like I'm calm. Like, if you could hear the thoughts going through my head, it's not calm. Right. I guess I'm a better actress than I thought I am. But it's a. It's sympathy.

Sage (23:14)

Yeah.

Kristen Hawkins (23:15)

I. The most like Kristen Mean videos there are out there are when I'm talking to someone who comes up and tries to use Christianity to defend abortion. That's when you'll see me lose my right. Because I just. I don't have patience for that. I can't. Because most the time when I'm speaking to people who are yelling me now you have to think, too. The two most unhinged people on campuses that my security guards have been briefed to watch for are trans women. Men and older women, 50 plus. They're the two most violent. So those are the ones violent? Oh, yeah. Like flipping the tables, threatening to hit you. And the trans. The trans women, the men who are taking hormones, There's a reason for that. Right. The women who are older, it's because they're post supportive. So they're 50 years old, 20, 30 years out from their abortion, and they still haven't healed from their abortion. And so they can't handle it. They physically can't handle it when someone is there saying abortion is wrong.

Sage (24:24)

So they're still trying to rationalize it in their mind.

Kristen Hawkins (24:26)

Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, those are the two groups of people that I look for the most potential violence and that I'm always like, scanning the crowd for. Because that's what we've seen with Students for Life, where older women will come up and like, flip up the tables and like trans men will try to hit our students. Trans women. Sorry, sorry. To all the women who. I get very confused. I do too. I have to stop and like, potentially be like, which one is it? So I think there's that. But then, you know, you also, what we're also seeing is so for example, when I was at Montana State, Bozeman last year, not this year, last year there was a girl I spoke to and she was younger that I still think about. And I think about this girl all the time because I think she sums up the broader problem we have. And we're filming a documentary this spring on campuses with me and because one of the things I've noticed in the pro life movement of late, and it's mostly on like X, there's like this radical group of like men who don't really like women, they don't like women leading the pro life movement they've condemned. You know, abortion's still legal because women are leading the movement. I'm like, dude, we have abortion because of men. Like just FYI, and we love men, we want more men in movement. I need men to carry my purse. My shoulders can't killing me all the time, right? But we need men. But there's been like this, this thing of like, it's almost like this hatred of women that's coming up and it's not good because in the movement and the pro life movement we've always been about saving the baby 100%. That is our main goal. But we also talked about the secondary victim of her, this woman who's been lied to by the abortion industry, by the second wave of feminism that told a whole two generations of women in our country, you aren't strong enough. You are not strong enough to overcome this circumstance, this inconvenience that you didn't want to have. Right? This nine month temporary inconvenience. Being pregnant. You cannot be pregnant and finish your education or achieve your career goals or make an adoption plan. You can't do that. You have to choose abortion. You have to pay us, those of us who profit from your despair and hopelessness, you have to pay us to get rid of it. And so we've always seen her as the other person we're fighting for of like, no, you don't have to choose. You are strong enough, you are capable. Because if we want to save her child, we're also going to have to save her. Because the broader conversation we're now seeing on campuses and this really kind of elevated post Covid, I used to only see this conversation in like Oregon and Washington before most spiritually dark places, but now I see it everywhere, is she doesn't know she has any value. So yes, the blue haired septum ring girl that a lot of very right wing men on X want to make fun of. Like, the whole thing is, like, they're so the reason they're pro abortion is because they're ugly and no one have sex with them. Like, that's literally, like, the argument sometimes I hear on our own side of the aisle, which is a stupid, dumb argument and not going to win anybody over, by the way. And uncharitable and unchristian. But she's also part of our mission because what. What. When I was having this conversation with this girl at Bozeman, she came up, she started yelling at me, screaming at me. There were, like, 150 kids, and they were super dedicated. It was raining. I was, like, being a wuss. I was like, under the tent because I was like, oh, my hair. They were, like, out there yelling at me. And she starts yelling, I had an abortion. It was the best thing I ever did. I took the pill. And so I started asking her questions, like, tell me about the abortion. How did it feel? And she described. She went into graphic detail about how it was the most painful thing she'd ever done in her life.

Sage (28:28)

Physically painful.

Kristen Hawkins (28:29)

Physically painful. How she thought she was going to die. So I just kept talking because I'm like, you're yelling at me, justifying your abortion while telling everybody what I've been telling them, by the way, for the past hour and a half. And I finally started asking her about herself. I'm like, what made you think you had to choose abortion? Like, what's going on? Like, what was going on? Come to find out the girl is getting her master's degree in some sort of biomedical sciences. Smart girl, going to make money. She's going to have a good career ahead of her. She was married, so she had a support system. And so I was like, you know, what would make you think you had to choose a portion? Like, you're smart. You're going to have. Yes, you're still in school, but you're almost done. Like, you know, you're going to be making a lot of money very soon. You're married. You have a spouse, somebody to support you. 30 minutes in the conversation, it goes on. And she said, I want my legacy, my family line to end. There should be no legacy.

Sage (29:34)

It was about whatever happened in her childhood.

Kristen Hawkins (29:37)

And I said, let me ask you a question. Do you think you have any value? Does your life have meaning and value? Were you made with a purpose? Do you have a purpose on this earth? And it was like the whole crowd. I mean, there was 150 kids. You couldn't hear anybody. She went Completely silent. It was as if I was speaking a foreign language and she couldn't understand what I'm saying. She could not answer the simple question if she had value. Like, and it was like she had never even been posed that question before to even think about. Like, it was a brand new thought. And so I was like, I finally ended the conversation with her because I talked to her for 40, 50 minutes and I finally was like, you know what? Not going to convince you of anything today. I'm not going to convince you abortion is wrong. Because to understand abortion is wrong is to mean you have to believe that the child that you and your husband made had value and had worth that's equally valuable to you, not more valuable, equally valuable to you. But you have to understand that you have value, you have worth. And I pray before it's too late, you figure that out for your own self. Yeah, and I was like, I said, ma', am, we don't need to have any more further conversation because you've got to go figure that out. And I think that's the conversation that we need to have on campuses. And I think that's the broader conversation the pro life movement, the conservative movement needs to keep in mind. Because now, like you, you know, on X, we've been seeing a lot of stuff of, like, Mondami, he won because of stupid white women and maybe we should take away their right to vote and women are the problem and women, blah, blah. And like, like, first of all, that's not happening. You're not gonna convince 37 state legislatures to take away women's right to vote. But maybe we need to have a conversation. And I don't think condemning women is gonna be the way to win them over, to have them, like, I don't know, listen to what you have to say and convince them why voting for a socialist is, you know, going to destroy our country, which I wholeheartedly believe. But we have to realize that she's also part of our mission just as much as that baby is. Because as human rights activists, as pro life activists, we believe every human life has value and has dignity and has meaning and purpose. So her baby does as well as she does. And if she doesn't believe we care at all about her, she thinks we hate her. She's not going to listen to anything we have to say about her baby.

Sage (32:18)

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Kristen Hawkins (34:48)

I think the thing you have to understand is that there is forgiveness for everyone. I believe we serve a God who spoke the universe into existence, who then sent his only son to come to earth in human form, who is completely sinless, who died in the most excruciating painful way possible, who then rose again just for us. And it's been said over and over again, if Christ did it for one person, it was worth it. If he did it for you, just you, it was worth it. And so this is not, you know, the pro life, pro choice debate is not about condemning a woman who's had an abortion. It's saying we're speaking up for the most vulnerable. We're telling you you have better options. You should have had better options. And there's also forgiveness and love for you too. And so I think you have to seek that forgiveness. If you're a Christian, you just ask, you ask for forgiveness. It's very simple. God forgive me for my sins, whatever your sins are, and you will be forgiven. And you have to forgive yourself. And there's so many amazing healing ministries out there, Project Rachel's one, Rachel's Vineyard that comes to mind where you can actually go and be surrounded with women and men who've been party to abortion, who've also had abortions, and seek that healing and forgiveness together to seek closure on that decision you've made. But there's not, there's, there's not condemnation for you in the pro life movement because to be honest with you, Sage, most the women I know who lead pregnancy centers or maternity homes or have a pro life mission of some sort of are also, they're post abortive and they're doing this work because they don't want any other woman to fall into this and fall victim to this abortion industry as they did. So it's not a movement of condemnation, it's a movement of love. It's a movement of grace. And we do it out of love for the child, but also for her. And I think that's been my challenge of late, is like we've got to make sure in kind of some of the conservative echo chamber that we see on social media that we're always communicating that love.

Sage (37:17)

Do you think it's possible to be a pro choice Christian?

Kristen Hawkins (37:21)

No, no, no. Because to be a pro choice Christian, to say you now a lot of people use the word pro choice. Usually I'll use the word. If I'm talking to like a normal person like you, I'll say pro choice. But if I'm on campus, I'll use the word pro abortion.

Sage (37:36)

Pro abortion.

Kristen Hawkins (37:36)

There's, I'm, I'm totally fine if someone labels me anti abortion. Yeah, hell yes, I'm anti abortion. I'm anti human trafficking, I'm anti slavery, I'm anti smoking. I'm anti abortion. Like, not a problem. And I think pro choice is, you know, a lot of people are like, well, I'm pro choice. I'm like, what are you pro the choice of to choose? What? And people get very mad when they're like, don't call me pro abortion, I'm pro choice. Well, if you're for abortion, if you think it should be legal, if you tolerate it, then you are for the choice to abort a child. So just first of all, if you can't even accept that, then maybe you have a problem, right? Maybe your heart isn't settled on the issue of abortion if you can't even call yourself pro abortion. But to be pro abortion means you believe that some human beings who, as a Christian, you would have to say, are created in the image of our God, of the God who spoke the universe into existence. You would have to say that some of those creations of God's creations are unworthy of life. I don't see how that can be reconciled with the Christian faith. The commandments are very clear. Thou shall not murder. You know, pretty high up there on the list. Abortion is the intentional destruction of an innocent human life that was created in God's image. And to be pro abortion, to be pro choice, to be a Christian either means you don't understand that we serve a God who spoke the universe in existence, who made us all in his image with infinite value and worth. That either you don't get that,

Sage (39:16)

then

Kristen Hawkins (39:16)

how can you get anything else? And I think it's so, it's so weird when you hear the slogans of the other side, right? Because Christ gave his body for us. He gave up his body for us. He died on the cross for us. And their argument is my body, my choice.

Sage (39:33)

Yes.

Kristen Hawkins (39:33)

That you have to die for me. It's like the inverse. Like how. Who came up with that? So did. No, apparently was nobody with a Christian faith in the room when they came up with that slogan in the 1970s. Because it's like very clear it's the inverse of what Christ did for us.

Sage (39:52)

You have heard it probably hundreds of thousands of times of how insensitive we are to victims of rape and incest, etc. And for those who aren't familiar with your content, you say what?

Kristen Hawkins (40:03)

Yeah, yeah, I get this. I get this a lot. I get people coming to me and they're like, well, if your daughter, your 10 year old was right. Yeah, no, it's. I think a lot of people will join the pro life movement. I did. When I joined the pro life movement. I was like, okay, abortion's wrong. I know. It intentionally ends an innocent human life. It violently ends a human life. It harms women. It sells these lies that don't actually ever, you know, oh, you need abortion in order to escape your abusive boyfriend. No, it actually keeps you in the abusive relationship longer. Right? And we've seen. I've saw that firsthand, volunteering at a pregnancy center when I was 15. But then you come into the movie and you're like, okay, I disagree with abortion. Abortion's wrong. But because I love women, I can't imagine forcing a woman to carry a child after surviving what we all, as women know, is like, the worst thing that could happen to us, right? So I meet a lot of people that are like, oh, I'm pro life. Except these cases. And a lot of our politicians, sadly, in the GOP will say that, whether they believe it or not, depending on, I think, who they're talking to. But I think in order to be truly pro life, that's a position you can't rectify. Either we were all created in God's image and have infinite value, or we weren't. If you were conceived in sexual assault. And I have friends, and they are Ryan and Rebecca, and I've taken them to campuses, and they are, I think, some of the best spokespersons we have for the pro life movement who were actually conceived during violent sexual assaults of their birth mothers. And you meet these people, right? And I will introduce them to students because they always bring up rape. And I'll say, well, actually, Rebecca's standing right here. Rebecca, do you want to tell everybody your story? And instantly the student will say, I'm not talking about you. I'm like, well, of course you're not, because you're talking to her face, and you're a kind person, and you don't want to tell somebody to their face, yeah, you should have been aborted, Right? And you see Rebecca as an adult, as a foster mother, as a human rights attorney who actually helps other women who've survived sexual assault. Like, yeah, you don't want to tell her because you know she's a good person. Because the difference is you still aren't acknowledging, even if you call yourself pro life, you still aren't acknowledging the reality that what is inside of a mother is a unique human being who is unrepeatable and has value. And it doesn't change. No matter. It doesn't change what happened the night you were conceived, whether there were, like, champagne and candles and R and B music playing IN the BACKGROUND if you were conceived in the backseat of your dad's high school car, whether you were conceived during a brutal, violent assault that should have never happened, you still have value. And your value doesn't change based on the sins of your parents. Because nobody would argue. Most people, no, there is X. But most people would argue that if my dad would go commit a rape or if my dad would go commit an act of mass murder or terrorism, there would be no argument in our culture today of, oh, Kristen and her sister should be put to death for the crimes of their father. We would condemn the crimes of the father. We'd say he should be served justice for his crimes. But we wouldn't say, oh, Kristen and Emily should be murdered. Because. Because we all acknowledge that I'm a human being with value and dignity and I'm a, you know, full fledged human. And so when we say we're pro life but accepting cases of rape, what we're doing saying is we don't fully acknowledge that child has value and dignity.

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Sage (44:09)

I had a friend also who was conceived when her mother was raped by a stranger and he went to prison. I mean, it was. She obviously never knew him, but I, I remember just looking at her and being like, gosh, thank God that your mom had that courage. And if she's my age, she's 50 now. Like, that's a. It's a different time. I mean, it's all different. It's all. No matter when you're making that decision. Right. But her, I think it's probably common and you see this a lot more than me, where you do question your worth if you are on this earth because of such a terrible, violent act. But I go back to that mother and the courage that it must have

Kristen Hawkins (44:55)

taken, especially 50 years ago.

Sage (44:57)

Yes.

Kristen Hawkins (44:57)

When single motherhood was. You were shipped away to your cousins in Montana. Right. For nine months.

Sage (45:04)

But I always. This is what she said to me that made me understand because I was always pro life without having to say it. It was just common sense to me, I guess. It's never, ever, ever the baby's fault. Never. They were, they're just here. They were conceived and now we have a duty.

Kristen Hawkins (45:25)

It's too late to let them live.

Sage (45:27)

It is.

Kristen Hawkins (45:28)

It really Is and I think the case of your friend, because every time she hears the conversation of abortion come up in our national dialogue, sadly what she hears from the other side is she doesn't have value as a child.

Sage (45:41)

Yeah, yeah. It has made me crazy through the years to hear our politicians talk about reproductive rights. Right. They package it much more beautifully than it is, of course. And having access to abortion is health care. Where did that come from? Like, that's insane. It is health care to terminate. And that's the other word they use, right? To abort your child, to kill your child. It's healthcare. How do they get away with saying that? Health care is when I go get a mammogram to prevent hopefully, or to catch breast cancer or to get your go to your object GYN appointments once a year. That's healthcare, not intentionally killing your baby.

Kristen Hawkins (46:28)

Yeah, well, I mean, there is no Hippocratic Oath. Most people don't know doctors don't take the Hippocratic oath anymore to intentionally not harm, to cause harm. So like the pro life, there's pro life and Catholic Christian medical societies out there now that will hold alternative graduation kind of ceremonies for Christian medical students where they do the Hippocratic Oath.

Sage (46:50)

Hmm, interesting.

Kristen Hawkins (46:51)

But I was shocked when I found out. I was like, wait a minute, I thought all doctors had to take the Hippocratic Oath, do not do harm. Like, I thought that was like what we were all doing here. No, that's not the case. Because of euthanasia, because of assisted suicide, because of abortion. You can't, you can't take the Hippocratic oath because you are intentionally doing harm to somebody else. And I, you know, the abortion is healthcare. That's a relatively, in terms of like the 50 year plus fight we've had in the country, I would say it's a pretty relatively new term that they've started using that it's health care kind of started during the Obamacare debate. We started hearing it more. I mean, the Wyoming Supreme Court just two weeks ago invalidated all the pro life laws in the state of Wyoming and said it's a fundamental right to health care. And these four dudes get to say that. So yeah, it's a relatively new term or phrase that's been used in their movement. But yeah, it's the opposite of health care. If your health care kills people intentionally, that you're doing it wrong and you should run away from anybody who says they're a doctor and intentionally is killing somebody else. And I think that makes common sense. But what you see in the abortion movement and the abortion lobby is. They're constantly having to find new phrases, new words to justify this very brutal act of violence. It really is. It's like, I mean, it's regressive. Yeah, the pro life movement, we're, I mean, and I know you have a pretty conservative audience and I'm a conservative, but we're kind of like progressives in the pro life movement. Like, we're like the revolutionaries of, like, hey, women don't have to choose between having a child and having a successful career. We're not saying you can have everything at the same time. We're not saying, trust me, as a working mother that it's going to be easy, but we're saying you're strong enough to do it. That's apparently what the feminists were supposed to be about. That's been us, not them. We are the progressives of saying, maybe let's envision a country and what do we need to provide and how do we do that as a liberal versus conservative policy question of how do we help families have one parent stay at home or allow moms the choice if they want to homeschool and not feel like they have to work? Let's have an actual policy conversation about this. The left and right misses the mark on this constantly. The left just wants crazy payroll taxes and paid family leave, but then also wants us to take more payroll taxes to, to then kill babies. And it just makes no sense.

Sage (49:30)

None.

Kristen Hawkins (49:30)

The politics doesn't make sense at all. And you try to have a conversation like, we have a bereaved Parents Rights act we're trying to introduce in Congress right now and we can't find a Democrat to co sponsor. And all it is is a simple law saying if you have a miscarriage as a mother, the hospital needs to tell you what your rights are to be able to get your baby so you can bury your baby and where to go and your baby doesn't just get thrown away. And like, I can't get a Democrat to go co sponsor that, because to co sponsor that bill would admit that there is a baby, that it's a life because of abortion. We can't have an honest conversation about the pain and tragedy of miscarriage in our country. Like, we don't talk about miscarriage. It's like, oh, we can't talk about it because if you're pro abortion to admit that you could be sad after having a miscarriage or to say, hey, you have the right to take your child from the hospital after miscarriage and

Sage (50:24)

Go to a family, no matter at what stage.

Kristen Hawkins (50:26)

You have to, no matter what stage. But you can't do that because of abortion. Abortion, like, shuts down.

Sage (50:33)

What should a woman do in that stage?

Kristen Hawkins (50:34)

The whole conversation. You have the right to bury your child. Your child does not simply have to go into the medical waste and be cremated or be burned or be buried with limbs and appendixes. You have the right to record, request your child be sent to a funeral home and to bury your child or to crema your child and have a service.

Sage (50:59)

And the hospital must listen.

Kristen Hawkins (51:02)

Yes, but it's. They don't know. I mean, people in the hospital don't know that women have the right to their child. And you actually have to put up a fight. I've had, you know, 100 plus staffers. They tend to be very fertile and they like to have a lot of kids in the pro life movement. So we deal a lot with miscarriages and infertility at Students for Life, just internally, within our own team. And that's how this idea of this bill came up was how do we. I had a board member who was a former staff member of mine whose wife miscarried, and he called me going, what do we do? We can't get the baby. We want our baby. And the hospital saying, no. I was like, well, no, they can't, you know, but you have to sign, you know, you have to, you know, if you, for example, if you give birth and you just say, I want to take my placenta home, you know, the organ that develops to stay in your baby, you have to sign all these medical waivers. And it gets into the conversation about chemical abortion, too, because, you know, when we're thinking about how abortions are now being committed in our country, majority of abortions are being committed at home. They're being done with a regimen of pills. The first pill that blocks progesterone, which starves, maybe the second pill which extends, expels the baby. And no one wants to have a conversation about where that baby goes. She is told when the cramping and the bleeding gets too severe to sit on the toilet or get in the bathtub too flush, not to look and to flush her child down the toilet. Patty Murray, US Senator Patty Murray was at the Senate Senate committee hearing the other day calling me and my organization a liar, saying, no one's having abortions in the toilet. I'm like, yeah, everyone is, actually. And we have some legislation in a couple states that we're trying to attack the prevalence of chemical abortion using Clean water laws because you have a pro life state that might have said, hey, we don't want abortions here. But abortions are still happening because in two minutes, a man, a rapist, a minor girl, anyone can go online, order chemical abortion pills. And if you say you're a minor, most of the sites will give them to you for free. They will ship the pills into your house for free. They won't give you any instructions. You'll get these pills. Even if you live in a pro life state. Nothing's stopping this. We have a federal Comstock act that technically Pam Bondi should be enforcing and she's not. That bans mailing abortion related material. It's been around for over 100 years. They're not enforcing it at the DOJ. Got some concerns there. But these pills are coming to your house. You're taking these abortion pills and you're aborting a child into the toilet. So now if you're a woman who's miscarrying in a hospital, you have to fight like hell to get your baby back. To take your baby from the hospital to a funeral home so you can do the decent thing and try, you know, to bury your child, you have to fight. And most hospitals don't. People who work at the hospital don't know the rules when you're talking about abortion. And the reason that is is because the hospital's saying, hey, there's, you know, we are responsible for medical waste. We can't let medical waste just be buried. You can't bury a human or, you know, a limb. If you get your arm amputated, you can't take your arm and just go and bury it in your backyard. Because we have rules about burying human beings, about burying body parts in our soil because of water. Right. The hospital has to be very stringent on that. That's their whole argument for the miscarriage. But when it comes to chemical abortion and the 700,000 plus children a year who are being aborted in this very gruesome and cruel way, we're literally flushing these children down our toilet. And what we've proven is that mifepristone, the first pill in the chemical abortion pill cocktail, the pill that starves a child, that blocks the progesterone. It's a progesterone blocker. It actually doesn't go inactive after it passes through the mom's body. So in the blood and the placental tissue that is also excreted from the woman, the mifepristone, anti and progesterone metabolites, the three metabolites that are only found in mifepristone, no other pharmaceutical drug actually remain active when they're in the water. So we've actually tested tap water.

Sage (55:16)

Whoa.

Kristen Hawkins (55:17)

Where we can find these progesterone blockers in the water from mifepristone, from these abortions. So it's, it's. I know, sorry. This is why people don't invite me to dinner parties, because I talk about things like I'm like, stop drinking water. Drink your. Drink your energy drink or something. Because you don't want to know what's in your water.

Sage (55:35)

You don't know.

Kristen Hawkins (55:36)

Yeah, you don't want to know what's in your water.

Sage (55:39)

You know what else people I think have been in denial about? First of all, congratulations. Planned Parenthood. They did an incredible job, didn't they, for all these years? And I always go back to who Margaret Sanger actually was and what she preached. And if she'd had her way, I wouldn't be here. That's for sure.

Kristen Hawkins (55:59)

I wouldn't be here either. And I'm white.

Sage (56:02)

Why? Because she specifically. She specifically, I mean, said a lot of things, but like brown people and immigrants. Brown people and immigrants, you're right. And especially because I'm biracial. So, like, everybody's evil.

Kristen Hawkins (56:16)

Oh, yeah, yeah. You got two strikes against you in Marcus Henger.

Sage (56:19)

I mean, but she actually said this on tape. It is on video that she basically was. Her goal was to exterminate anybody that she didn't like, which is a. A big group.

Kristen Hawkins (56:32)

She was a eugenicist.

Sage (56:33)

Yes. And no one acknowledges that. That is the founder and the foundation, therefore, of Planned Parenthood. So you look at New York City, which I think last year had another record setting year for number of black babies aborted. I believe. And you tell me. I heard the number of black babies aborted was higher than the number of black babies born.

Kristen Hawkins (56:52)

And that's been happening for probably well over a decade. More black babies aborted than actually being born.

Sage (56:59)

So they're winning. This is what they want. And this is the part, though, with the educational aspect of it that they don't want out. They don't want us to know because it would, you know, the stuff that they feed people and certain, I mean, all of us, but certain demographics, certainly it would be confusing.

Kristen Hawkins (57:16)

Yeah.

Sage (57:16)

Well, this is what I need to do. I didn't mean to get pregnant. This is what I have to take. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. They won.

Kristen Hawkins (57:22)

No. And even when you look at the trans hormones Right. The cross, sex. Wrong. Sex hormones. It's actually achieving Margaret Sanger's vision probably more effectively than abortion. So Margaret Sanger, so she was a eugenicist in a time where it was popular to be a eugenicist. So she believed, like my great grandmother, who was a bastard, born in a workhouse in Ireland, 17 years old, like, came over. I've been to Ellis island, where she came over by herself as a 17 year old. Totally lied to get an this country. Right. My grandmother should have been sterilized according to Margaret Sanger's views because she was a bastard immigrant. You know, they hated the Irish, right, in that time period. Now we all get ready to celebrate, you know, St. Patrick's Day or whatever. But, yeah, she believed people, certain stocks and breeds should not have the right to reproduce. And she, I mean, that's why she founded the American Birth Control League, which became Planned Parenthood. Why Lothrop Stoddard was actually on her board and wrote for her, you know, journal, Lothrop Stoddard, he's the man who wrote the Rising Tide Against Color and like, literally consulted with the Nazis. He debated. Was it W.E.B. du Bois? Like, he's look up Lothard Stoddard and what he said. You think what Marcus Sanger said was bad? Just look what he put in brush. I mean, one of the most evil things you can read. Okay. He was her friend. So Margaret Sanger actually wasn't for abortion. She actually believed abortion killed a baby. Planned Parent. I have a brochure from planned parent from 1962 of them admitting abortion killed a baby. So abortion is actually relatively like new thing. They wanted mass sterilization, negative eugenics. Negative or positive eugenics. Either encouraging people to sterilize themselves or forcing people to sterilize themselves. This is why we had state eugenics boards until, I think 1980 in Oregon was the state last one to disband. And you've had lots of lawsuits in the past 20, 30 years of black women who'll say, I went in to get my appendix out in the 50s, and then they sterilized me. My parents didn't know. Like, there was a huge lawsuit a few years ago in Virginia about this, where women said, our entire family legacy, our tree has been cut because the state of Virginia sterilized women, black young girls against their will. Their parents didn't even know. And this was being done by our states. Right? That's what Margaret Sanger wanted and that's what she advanced. And so you look at today, yes, the Majority of abortion facilities. Where are a majority of abortion facilities in Planned Parenthoods? They are in minority, brown and black walkable neighborhoods. They'll say now, well, that's just because black women, you know, tend to have more oopsies with birth control and a harder time understanding how to use birth control. Like, they literally said that. The Guttmacher Institute, Planned Parenthood's research arm, named after Alan Guttmacher, who was the second president of Planned Parenthood, who also served as president of the American Eugenic Society. Google that word if you don't know what that means. Yeah, that's. Black women are stupid and don't know how to use birth control. That's why we need that. That's, like, their defense. Like, it's crazy, the racism. Oh, it just.

Sage (60:34)

In that statement, literally.

Kristen Hawkins (60:36)

But don't ignore that part. Yeah, no, like, we did a. When I was pregnant with my first son, we did this whole summer campaign. It was the first ever defund Planned Parenthood event. So this is when we had Congressman Mike Pence, Congressman Trent Frankson. They had introduced this novel, bill Defund, Planned Parenthood. This is how old I am. Because I remember, like, these things, right? And so we took pastors, friends of mine in the pro life movement, and we went and did, like, protests from Planned Parenthoods across the country exposing the racism Planned Parenthood. This is back in the day when people thought pro lifers are crazy for, you know, we're conspiracy theorists for talking about Planned Parenthood being racist. Now it's even pro choice students on campuses will admit to me that, yeah, I think Planned Parenthood's a little racist. A little. Just a little. Or they'll say, well, yeah, they were kind of founded by racist, but, like, Walt Disney was racist, too. So it's okay.

Sage (61:26)

It's fine.

Kristen Hawkins (61:27)

Everybody was racist. I think there's a video of a girl telling me, well, everybody was racist, so it's fine. But when you think about today, their business model. So they've separated themselves from Margaret Sanger. So they used to give out the Maggie Award. Like, Hillary Clinton won it. Ruth Berry. They stopped giving out the Maggie Award. They renamed their flagship facility the one that Margaret Sanger had found in New York City. They renamed it so it was no longer the Margaret Sanger facility. NYU used to have the Margaret Sanger, like, project where I could go and find all of her writings. That's all offline and secret now. So they've done work to kind of clean up since Black Lives Matter. They've done work to kind of clean up that brand. Right. They hired a black president of Planned Parent. So it's all good now because she's black, the president of Planned Parenthood. But what's interesting now is you look at. They are the leading distributor of wrong sex hormones. So as planned, you know, as I was talking about chemical abortion, the abortion industry has shifted in the years since Roe has fallen. They're not making the money they used to make off of abortion, because if I can go on, if a rapist can go online in two minutes and get chemical above abortion posts from India or wherever, they're not making that money anymore. So they had to move into something else. They've moved into transgender hormone therapy, which actually accomplishes Margaret Sanger's vision, because Margaret Sanger wanted mass sterilization. What sterilizes taking wrong sex hormones. We are sterilizing a whole generation of kids telling them, oh, you mean there's been a number of, like, undercover investigations where you can. You can call Planned Parenthood and in the same day, as a minor in states like Minnesota, get put on these hormonal drugs that will sterilize you for the rest of your life. They are still enacting her vision, and I would argue they might even be doing it at a faster pace. I mean, abortion can lead to sterilization and infertility, especially if you're RH negative. And you don't want me going into all that because that'll be too much for a morning podcast, depending on when you're consuming this. But this actually completes her vision faster.

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Sage (63:59)

It's all about education.

Kristen Hawkins (64:00)

Yeah, absolutely.

Sage (64:01)

And it fascinates me, the president, the president of Planned Parenthood, as a black woman who either is choosing not to educate herself on the foundation of the company that she leads or is choosing to just completely ignore it. Neither one is a good option.

Kristen Hawkins (64:18)

She's complicit in it. She actually gave an interview.

Sage (64:21)

What's her name?

Kristen Hawkins (64:22)

Alex Johnson. Miguel Johnson? She. Or Alexis. She gave an interview after shortly becoming president. My friend Ryan, who was conceived in rape, who's biracial. Ryan had done a billboard in New York City about black babies being aborted, and she cites that as why she had to join Planned Parenthood. She had to join Planned Parenthood to defend them.

Sage (64:47)

The fact that you are doing all of this traveling across the country. I mean, on Capitol Hill, in college classrooms everywhere. With four babies. How old are they?

Kristen Hawkins (65:02)

My oldest just turned 17. I know. Brace yourself. I'm older than I look. And My youngest is 10.

Sage (65:09)

Wow.

Kristen Hawkins (65:10)

Yeah.

Sage (65:10)

Girls? Boys?

Kristen Hawkins (65:11)

Three boys and one girl. One princess.

Sage (65:15)

Everybody has to have one of those.

Kristen Hawkins (65:16)

That's right. That's right.

Sage (65:18)

How. How have you done this? Because actually, before you answer that question, this began at 15 for you.

Kristen Hawkins (65:25)

That's right.

Sage (65:26)

When you were. Let me see if I'm gonna get this right. Did you have to do community service hours? Yeah. And chose.

Kristen Hawkins (65:33)

Yeah. I wasn't arrested and being forced to do services. Okay.

Sage (65:36)

Yes. Not because of a crime.

Kristen Hawkins (65:37)

No. It was to graduate. It was to graduate with honors out of high school. I'm glad you clarified that.

Sage (65:43)

Reform criminal served her time.

Kristen Hawkins (65:45)

I might have made the podcast more interesting. I should have probably shut up, but no.

Sage (65:48)

What was that? 15 years old. Community service. Where was it?

Kristen Hawkins (65:53)

It was in Steubenville, Ohio. So I was raised in, like, northern part of West Virginia.

Sage (65:59)

I don't hear your draw.

Kristen Hawkins (66:00)

Well, it's because I'm above the Mason Dixon line.

Sage (66:02)

Okay.

Kristen Hawkins (66:02)

Near Pittsburgh. I'm more of a Pittsburgh accent demeanor.

Sage (66:06)

Yeah.

Kristen Hawkins (66:08)

It was when I moved away, I realized I did really have it. But. Yeah, no, I decided I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. So I'd won this. I'm a total dork. So I'd won this scholarship to Advanced Space Camp. Yes. I have one college credit hour and space something. I believe I got a college credit hour. So I had gone to Huntsville, Alabama, at the Rocket center and done this thing. So I decided very quickly I wanted to graduate high school early. I wanted to graduate three years. And so I was gonna be valedictorian and all this stuff. But I realized, oh, my gosh, in order to graduate with honors at your high school, you get the yellow robe, not the green robe. You had to complete an honors project. And so my counselor was like, you got to, you know, you need to volunteer 100 hours this summer if you're gonna skip a year and graduate with honors. And so I just. I was going to a church that I was raised in, and I just said, hey, I'm, you know, looking for a volunteer opportunity, and I would love to be able to be like, yeah, I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. Did not. A woman at my church was a part time accountant at this pregnancy center, and she was like, hey, I work at this women's center. Do you want to come help? And I had, you know, I always Kind of. I knew as a Christian, abortion was supposed to be bad, but I was one of those people of like, yeah, but I made a mistake. My friend got a mistake. I can't, you know, I don't want my friend to be punished with a baby. Right. That line you hear all the time. And so I walked into this women's center and it was a pregnancy resource center, or you will sometimes hear people say, call it crisis pregnancy center, where it's a place where women in Steubenville, Ohio could go, no judgment, could get, get a free pregnancy test, do a limited STD test, get support diapers, formula, get counseling, get mentorship if she was in that situation. So I spent, Yeah, I did the like stupid intern things of like, you know, I taught them how to use their computer and learn how to make a donor newsletter with clip art. And I reorganized the supply room and all the diapers and formula. It was beautiful. I made an inventory sheet. I did that stuff. But I also was given the opportunity that summer to actually start going in on the counseling sessions at 15 years old, which was an interesting, you know, thing to learn. As a 15 year old virgin, I had to learn a lot really fast about sex and relationships. And, you know, these women were asking me questions and they were 10, 15 years older than me. But getting to meet these women and hear their stories, many of them were already post abortive, so they've already had one abortion. They were coming to this center because of relational poverty. I mean, yes, they were in financial poverty, but these are, these are women who have relational poverty. They're cut off from their parents. They're living with the boyfriend who's somewhat abusive, but they won't fully say it. Right. He's supporting her other child from her other past partner relationship, and she thinks this is my only way out. And having those conversations, meeting those women, hearing their stories, learning what abortion really was, it just, it transformed my entire Life.

Sage (69:23)

At 15.

Kristen Hawkins (69:24)

At 15, yeah.

Sage (69:27)

That's amazing though, that you were able to comprehend what you were seeing and hearing and then had the motivation to go learn about it. Like you said, you had to go 15 year old virgin, you had to go learn. Yeah, My goodness.

Kristen Hawkins (69:43)

Yeah. There were a lot of things my parents had talked to me about that I learned that summer, let's put it that way. Yeah. Talk to your kids about sex. Right.

Sage (69:53)

At what age?

Kristen Hawkins (69:54)

I mean, we start early in my house. We don't go through the details. Right. Give them what they need to know at the time that they're. But We've. I mean, all of my kids know what abortion is. I mean, they have to.

Sage (70:05)

Your youngest is 10.

Kristen Hawkins (70:06)

My youngest is 10. My. I have a video of my 10. My oldest, when he was 10, I actually filmed it because he kept asking me, and he's. He's the. He's Mr. Philosopher, my inquisitor. And so I filmed it. I asked him, I was like, can we film this conversation? Because it's to this day, to watch it, it's like, so heartbreaking to actually have to tell him what an abortion is, how it's done, and just hear his child, like, in the sense of just saying, why would anyone do this? So, yeah, I didn't tell all my kids at 10 exactly what abortion is, but it depends on the child. And.

Sage (70:41)

And just in general sex, though.

Kristen Hawkins (70:42)

Yeah. No, you've got to start having that conversation because if you don't do it as a parent, somebody else is going to do it. And the question is, who's that person? And Planned Parenthood, the abortion industry, they want to be that person. They're the ones that. They want to build that relationship and that trust with your child. And also, as a parent, you also have to start having those conversations of, there is nothing you can do as my child that would ever make me not love you. There's no mistake or there's no action you can ever take that you cannot come and tell me. Because I meet a lot of former Christian girls who were Christian, raised in a, you know, what would look like a solid Christian home, who then became pregnant and felt like they couldn't tell their parents.

Sage (71:33)

That's why they did it.

Kristen Hawkins (71:34)

That's why they did it. Or I've met girls who have told their Christian parents who then drove them to the abortion facility and forced them. So it's. I think that's a conversation you've got to constantly have.

Sage (71:46)

So what does that conversation look like with your daughter?

Kristen Hawkins (71:49)

There is nothing you'll ever do that will make me hate you, not love you. We are always in your corner, even if we might get upset at something you've done. You always come and talk to me. I think it's, you know, as she gets older, when she starts dating, talking about boys. We're still in a, well, I'm never getting married phase. Right. We start.

Sage (72:14)

Have.

Kristen Hawkins (72:15)

We need to have that conversation of what is sex? What is the point of sex? What is the purpose of sex? And what is the healthiest and best practice plan for you?

Sage (72:27)

Gosh. Do you remember the book Where Did I Come From? Did you ever see that book? A friend of my parents when I was, you know, four. Here, this is for Sage and Chad and siblings someday.

Kristen Hawkins (72:40)

Yeah.

Sage (72:41)

And I'm gonna find it for you. It's hysterical. Like, I think there's so many parents who have a difficult time obviously saying the words and then saying proper words, actually, for body parts, this book with cartoon type illustrations made it understandable for kids. I do wonder how it would be received today. I mean, this is in the 70s.

Kristen Hawkins (73:03)

Yeah.

Sage (73:04)

You know, sometimes though, like, let's look at this. Let's read this together. And I remember, you know, it's a very different conversation with my son versus my daughters.

Kristen Hawkins (73:15)

Yes.

Sage (73:15)

For sure. And my son is like, oh, my gosh. You like, dude, let's talk about, you know, before I went off to college, but certainly going off to college, I'm like, sit your butt down. Here's the conversation, you know, But I'm shocked at how many parents are still unwilling. Unwilling to have it. And by the way, it isn't just mothers to daughters or fathers to sons. Let's go both ways here, because actually, I think it can even have more meaning.

Kristen Hawkins (73:43)

Yeah. We as women have a little bit more insight to help our sons. Right?

Sage (73:47)

Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Hawkins (73:48)

How do women view sex?

Sage (73:50)

Right.

Kristen Hawkins (73:51)

You might be thinking of it this way. She's thinking of it this way. And have you. You know, that's gonna be a. I'm still waiting for that conversation with a 17 year old. He's still. No women. No ladies. That's the brilliance of homeschooling, I was gonna say.

Sage (74:05)

And you. You've homeschooled the entire time.

Kristen Hawkins (74:09)

Yeah. We didn't start out thinking we would homeschool. I was raised in public school. My mom was a public school teacher. My husband was a public school teacher when we got married. And still he has substitutes in the public schools today, which then further emphasizes why we homeschool. But my first son, about three months after he was born, two months after he was born, we found out he had cystic fibrosis. And so Gunner has cf, and then Gracie, our youngest, has cf. And so it got very real very fast because the kind of vision I had for my son and how our lives were going to be got radically blown up in the course of an afternoon. And so we, immediately after we got the diagnosis that he had cf, started reevaluating what we were going to do. Okay, daycare is out. We need to figure out financially how to keep either me or Jonathan at home. How are we going to get his treatments where are we going to get his medical care from? How are we going to find the best medical care? Like, the whole. Our kind of whole view shifted to, you know, not making sure he was going to follow my footsteps and be a valedictorian and get a full ride to college. Like Mom, I could care less about either of those things. The goal was we got to get him to college. We want him to live to be older than college age. Right. And so that radically changed everything. And that's when we started, you know, and so, like, okay, we've got to keep him home. We've got to keep him away from germs. We want him to have a fun and healthy life and experience the whole joy of life without, you know, keeping him in a bubble. But there's things we. There's precautions we need to take. And so that's when we started exploring homeschooling. Like, could we actually make it work? And what were the sacrifices we were going to have to make financially to make this work?

Sage (75:58)

Genetic. Cystic fibrosis is genetic.

Kristen Hawkins (76:00)

Yeah, cystic fibrosis is genetic. So we are, you know, we would be prime candidates for Margaret Sanger's eugenics plan, my husband and I. So we are both. And we were unknowing. We didn't know. Neither one of us had CF in our families, but we are both recessive carriers of cystic cystic fibrosis. So 25% chance for every child that we have has CF.

Sage (76:23)

And so you found this out with your first. Was there any hesitation to have more kids knowing the disease?

Kristen Hawkins (76:30)

Absolutely there was. Yeah. My husband did not want to have a conversation about having more children. And it's a common thing, you see in kind of the CF chat rooms that I kind of stay in on Facebook of this. Why would we have any more children and doom our children to this? And there's a lot of guilt as a parent, because you've given your son this disease. It's not your disease, it's his disease. He's the one who has to live with it. He's the one who has to accept responsibility for it. And you're the reason he has that disease. And so there's a lot of guilt that goes into that. But thankfully, we got pregnant about 15 months later with my son Bear, and he is. I think, yeah, he doesn't even have a gene. He's not even a carrier. And so God didn't really give us a choice on that one. And I'm so grateful because we had Bear, then we had Maverick. And then we had Gracie. And every child, you know, that you bring into the world radically transforms you and your life and the whole world, actually.

Sage (77:32)

How did you convince him, your husband, to. Or did you just take care of matters on your own?

Kristen Hawkins (77:37)

I just took care of matters on my own, Sage. I'm perfectly capable of that.

Sage (77:41)

We are, yes.

Kristen Hawkins (77:43)

Yeah. No, yeah. It's a hard. You know. And when we were pregnant actually with Bear, we had gone. So we started traveling from dc, where I started Students for Life. We were seeing the CF center in dc but the best CF in the center of the country was at the time, was at Minnesota. So we started flying back and forth to Minnesota. And so I remember sitting there, and a lot of the CF teams have a geneticist on staff. And it was the one and only time I ever met the geneticist until I was pregnant with Gracie or after I had Gracie, because the geneticist came into the room to talk to us about how would we like to consider expanding our family. She didn't know I was pregnant at the time. And there was this thing called ivf, and we could create our children in the lab, and then they would just screen out all of the embryos, humans in embryonic form who had cf. And that was the last time the geneticist came to visit us, because I gave her a firm talking to, let's put it that way. And that's what's so sad, even within the CF community today is this eugenics view, like Margaret Sanger had, is still out there in the rare disease community. Right? Because in the ivf, the IVF community and how IVF is done in our country is, for the most part, there are eggs taken from mom, sperm from dad or the donor. Right. The human is created in the lab. And because IVF doesn't have a great efficacy rate, because it's painful, because it's expensive, because of the wear on the mother's body, it's encouraged to produce a lot of humans, a lot of them. About 90% of the humans created in IVF labs will actually never be born. They will either be immediately discarded because they won't be ranked high enough on their scale of good enough humans. They'll be frozen, which there's millions and millions of humans who are frozen. Frozen. Now, the thawing process is extremely deadly. So most of the humans will not survive the thawing process, even if they are adopted or later they say, I want to. So you have all these humans being created, but in the CF world, they'll create the humans, and they use Prenatal diagnosis, they'll screen all of the embryos and they will take the ones that have cf. And so those humans in embryonic form will either be thrown away or they'll encourage you to donate them to be researched upon. And then they'll only place embryos in you that are CF free. That is eugenics. Just for everyone. To be clear, that is modern eugenics. And how we practice, we use lots of nice terms. Oh, prenatal genetic determination, pgd, IVF implantation screening. That is genetics. Because you are determining that some humans, depending on their genetic code, should not be born. So that's a, it's a, it's a very big and very hard conversation to have because infertility is real. We don't have real conversations about infertility in our country or what's causing the infertility. The why is. And there's no incentive to talk about things like restorative reproductive medicine, RRM, which have higher efficacy rates than IVF, which are 100% ethical, which don't involve the creation of lots of humans that then we screen and discard. But the reason we don't have that conversation is because restorative reproductive medicine is like cheap. It's actually exploring what is the infertility, what's causing the infertility in a couple. How do we actually cure that problem rather than this billion dollar pharmaceutical industry?

Sage (81:41)

It always goes back there, doesn't it?

Kristen Hawkins (81:42)

Oh, absolutely. Like even the Trump administration came out this fall and you know, we're like, we're making this big deal with Trump Rx with more cheaper infertility drugs. And I was so like, wait a minute for the Maha moms. We've been saying, hey, we have a problem with our pharmaceutical industry that like making money while we get to sicker. That isn't curing anything. And then we go ahead and say, yay, good job, Trump administration. You just cut a deal with these billion dollar businesses that are going to make more money off of our infertility instead of like figuring out why are we having epic rates of infertility in our country. To me, that goes against everything Maha stands for.

Sage (82:22)

It does, it does. It's maddening.

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Sage (82:43)

The if I recall the. I mean, there's no cure still for cystic fibrosis right? Correct. Has it gotten better at all? Because if I recall, it was like a life experience. Life expectancy in the late 20s, early 30s.

Kristen Hawkins (82:57)

In the 70s, it was 1818. Today it's high 50s. Is it really for a child born today? They may, you know, the life expectancy may be up to 60 at some point.

Sage (83:10)

Oh, my goodness. That's shocking. I feel like that, relatively speaking, has happened fast.

Kristen Hawkins (83:15)

It's a modern miracle. So what happened was in the late 80s, they found the genes. They found what the actual genetic defect was, and they started trying to target that. So Gunner actually was one of the first hundred so kids in the world on a drug that's a genetic corrector. So it's not a cure, but it goes into the cells and moves the gene. So now Gunner and Gracie are on these modulators, they call them modulator drugs that, you know, Gracie was in the hospital for a couple weeks this summer, and her lung function had gone down. We were trying to figure out why, and we're still not kind of sure why, but we actually went in and. Did I forget what they call it? But they go in and investigate the lungs, Right. So they're in there taking pictures. You put a picture of her lungs up against any other child, there's no difference. And that's because of the genetic corrector, because CF is like a. It's a disease where we all have, like, mucus running through our body. Once again, why you don't want to have fun conversations with Kristen? You all have mucus running through your body. It's like the oil in your engine in cf, the mucus gets sticky.

Sage (84:29)

Yes.

Kristen Hawkins (84:30)

And so what happens. And what used to happen is the mucus would clog in your lungs, bacteria colonizes, which then would block your airwaves airways. And so you would. Normally, CF patients would die of lung failure. Now we have other problems. Right. My son has CF related diabetes, which isn't type 1, which isn't type 2, but he has to take insulin because both Gunnar and Gracie were born with a pancreas, but with scar tissue in their pancreas. So now they're even giving some of the genetic modulators to moms while they're pregnant.

Sage (85:02)

Wow.

Kristen Hawkins (85:03)

With a CF child. And children are being born without pancreatic incision insufficiency. So it's. There's a lot of things now I have to deal with CF liver disease, and we've got some kidney stuff. So there's other things that are. Now we're learning about. Apparently the colon Cancer rate is very high in the CF community and we're not sure why. So we're learning new things and there's new challenges, but there's a. Modern medicine is, you know, amazing. And you know, they're exploring crispr options of actually doing a genetic edit, editing the gene and doing a one time cure or like a daily virus that would be administered to be a correction daily. So there's always hope out there. And I think it's amazing to see just how far we've come. But I think what's interesting in the CF community is that it tends to be liberal. I would say I've kind of dabbled in fundraising and helping in the CF community, but tends to be pretty liberal. But here is a community of people that knew that each of these children were precious and valuable and deserved better. That worked for a rare disease. It's called an orphan disease. It's gotten zero government funding because worldwide there's about 70,000 CF patients. Most of the CF patients in the world live in the United States. In other countries, they're aborted or they don't have access to, to medicine. But we had a community of people who said, we are going to cure this disease for our children and fought for decades to raise the money to find, to convince the pharmaceutical companies, to convince the research teams to do the research because they knew the value of human life. That's what is. So when I debate kind of CF parents about ivf, I'm like, this is counter to what we believe. Why would we purposely throw away humans, our children who have cf, because we know how valuable these children are.

Sage (87:04)

I just am blown away by how. I mean, you know a lot about a lot of things.

Kristen Hawkins (87:10)

I'm a talker.

Sage (87:10)

The saying is usually I know a little about a lot of things. No, you know a lot about a lot of things.

Kristen Hawkins (87:14)

I think it's a little.

Sage (87:15)

But thank you, genuinely. And as a mother of four is huge. But with the two with cf, I mean, this is another level. How do you. Maybe this is a silly question, but do you slow down? Do you, do you take Kristen time? What does that look like when you're.

Kristen Hawkins (87:35)

That's a hard question for me. Yeah, I try. You know, I have. I mean, your question earlier we didn't answer is like, how do you do it all? It's my husband. That's the answer. Right? My husband, who sacrificed his career, became a stay at home dad who started homeschooling our kids, who has way more patience than I do because I was the magistere of Latin for two years, and there was, like, open rebellion in our house. So we don't teach Latin anymore. And mom doesn't teach because apparently just memorize it does not work. Right. But no, I think my time, my slow down time is time with the kids. Right? It's hiking, it's going to Disney World. Chippendale socks, the best. But then I get criticized for, on, you know, Instagram, for giving money to Evil Disney.

Sage (88:21)

Yes, but what's your Disney?

Kristen Hawkins (88:23)

No New Disney.

Sage (88:24)

New Disney. No New Disney. Old Disney's fine. Snow White. Like the real Snow White, not the craft.

Kristen Hawkins (88:31)

Now, my kids have never watched the new Snow White. Okay, yeah, no, no New Disney. That's my rule. That's how they're allowed to watch Disney. Disney plus, which is free at our house because we get it with, I think, Verizon or something. But yeah, no New Disney. And my kids, they all know the old school stuff. So we go to Disney World or something, and there's like, a new character. They're like, what? Don't worry about it.

Sage (88:49)

We don't. We ignore those characters, whatever.

Kristen Hawkins (88:53)

But yeah, but you guys are a

Sage (88:54)

team is the key.

Kristen Hawkins (88:56)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, sometimes you see, and I was talking about, like, X some of the, like, mean stuff we're starting to see. I've been seeing, like, evangelical pastors, like, bringing up, like, scripture verses about men who don't work and things like that. I'm like, oh, nothing makes me madder than seeing something like that. Because to have a husband who sacrificed so much of himself and that desire to get out and work and make a living, because that's the natural, like, male thing to do, to stay home while I do my crazy mission. He thinks I'm crazy. Most of the time. He thinks I'm not.

Sage (89:31)

He doesn't think the mission is crazy. He thinks you're saying schedule is crazy.

Kristen Hawkins (89:33)

Oh, I'm crazy. Yes, yes. For doing and putting myself in these positions of getting screamed at, you know, with the kids.

Sage (89:41)

Is that part hard for him and for your kids as they've gotten older, to see the hate that comes your way? You used to get. I mean, they used to crush you about your weight. You lost a lot of weight. I mean, that would be like, as soon as they started to lose the argument, they'd attack you for your weight.

Kristen Hawkins (89:55)

I know. And now it's. Now I get attacked, you know? Oh, you have Oz epic face. You can't. You really can't win with these people. Right? Like, they will find Something that they will criticize you on all the time.

Sage (90:08)

It's hard though. Like, my parents still struggle and it's been 30 years.

Kristen Hawkins (90:12)

My mom struggles. My mom, stop it. I'll see her on the comment section. I'm like, oh, gosh, hopefully no one knows that.

Sage (90:18)

I thought, I'm like, mom, put down the knife. Yes. Put down your phone. Your phone is the knife.

Kristen Hawkins (90:23)

I would be the same way. I would be the same. I mean, right.

Sage (90:25)

I haven't heard. I'm sorry. Husband, Kids, like they said, see it.

Kristen Hawkins (90:28)

Yeah, they do. They. And, and that's, you know, that it bothers the kids. You know, my daughter's on YouTube and my niece at one point had done a video of like, oh, that's my aunt or something on her like little 10 year old YouTube. They make these like little YouTube shorts. And then someone figured it out. I was like, you've got to take down that picture right now. Like, you know, they called and so like, you do not want to know the hate you'll get as a 10 year old, you know, for. So you have to have these conversations about. There are people who do not understand what abortion is. There are people who want to kill babies to make a profit off of this. And you know, we're Christians, so it's not going to be, it's never going to be easy.

Sage (91:09)

You are so strong. And again, people are going to debate all they want, but you know the facts. You're still a human being.

Kristen Hawkins (91:17)

Yeah.

Sage (91:18)

Does it ever hurt you, the things that people say?

Kristen Hawkins (91:22)

I think, I mean, you know, the fat comments, which I would prefer no one to ever talk about how I look, ever. I don't need, I don't need you to tell me I look good. I don't. I prefer you not. Because I'm kind of a wallflower in personal life. Like, you'll see me in a room and my staff, you know, I get comments. I thought you'd be like more engaging. And I'm like over there in the corner, like, yeah. So, yeah, I don't, I don't love that. It's not fun. It's not fun to have anyone having conversations about how much weight did Kristen lose? How did she lose weight? Like, please stop talking about that. Would you ask a man that? No, you wouldn't, right?

Sage (91:59)

True.

Kristen Hawkins (92:00)

It's. Men never get. Like, I think my makeup done, like for, you know, for you and for other stuff today. Right. Like I'm like, oh, I hate being a woman. Like sometimes men can just do whatever. I think the comments that bother me and the things that bother me the most, it's not, it's not those on the other side because it's the same thing. What we talked about earlier about these are hurting people, right? These are very wounded people. Some of them are post abortive. Some of. Many of them don't know they have value. There's past hurt that I have immense, you know, sympathy for that and I want to help those people. I think what hurts the most is it's from your own like side, right? When it's from your own political aisle. We have a, there's a kind of a fr. You know, there's a group on the fringes of the pro life world and if you're not in the like pro life policy world and say capitalist, you wouldn't know this and you don't want to know all what I know. But that tries to stop, stop pro life laws from taking effect. Their view is that any law that gets passed to end abortion must be a complete end, which I obviously want, even though I know the law states that's not political reality because of how the votes are shaping up in the electorate. Right. And it has to be a complete ban and it has to include punishment for every single person involved in the abortion. Not just the abortionist, but also the mother. And the pro life movement. Like that's not like what we get up to do. Like we just want to stop the baby killing. That's it, that's it. Like it's not about putting people in jail. And by the way, like, let's talk about jail and recidivism rates and we have a whole other policy conversation about that. That's not the mission. And so we get a lot of hate. Like recently some of these fringe groups and they're very, they're male, they're male led. So they don't like the fact that women lead the pro life movement. It's very weird. It's like they think that women have like taken their role and their place and they're like pro, we have abortion because of women. I'm like, well no, actually we have abortion because of men. The two men that pushed for deregulation of all abortion laws in the late 60s 70s were two men, Larry Lang for Margaret's Sanger and Bernard Nathanson, abortionist, who is profiting off of abortion. They're the ones who convinced Betty Friedan to put abortion in the second edition of Feminist Mystique. It was men. Why we have abortion. It was seven men at the Supreme Court who You know, made Roe vs Wade and Doe vs Bolton, which overturned every state ban on abortion. So it's, you know, but because that. There's a lot of women in the pro life movement. That's a good thing. And we want men. But so there's. There's stuff like that that kind of goes on where then you have, like, people who are also agreeing with you that abortion kills an innocent human being, that abortion should never be a thing. It should be a thing of the past on the ash heap of history. But then they'll use, like. They use, like, Old Testament scripture to go after this concept of what justice, what they deem as justice. They'll use Deuteronomy verses about stopping human sacrifice and saying, well, everybody involved and the whole, like, do justice, love mercy. The whole New Testament. That never gets quoted. Right. The woman at the. Well, not never gets talked about, but they use things like, you know, I. There was a podcast recently that was like, any. They'll say, like, things like, Kristen Hawkins hates the word of God, and they'll. They'll. And it's. I mean, that's hurtful. As a Christian, like, that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to bring the gospel to bear, and that's the mission that God's placed in my heart. And then you hear these things of, like, women. There was one podcast that just came out recently with somebody I know and was like, have you ever seen women fight? It's ugly. Women can't fight Moloch. Only men do. Which I find ironic because the dude who said it wears freaking loafers. So I don't think somebody wears loafers can be fighting Moloch either, if you want to actually have, like, a mean conversation about it.

Sage (96:08)

Oh, my gosh.

Kristen Hawkins (96:09)

But, like, why. Why attack. Why attack women who are doing this work? Join us. Like, start your own journey.

Sage (96:16)

But again, it goes back to what's. What's in here, what's in it.

Kristen Hawkins (96:19)

It's like this hatred for women that's brewing, and I think that hurts because it's being used and being given out. Using scripture and Christianity to, like, justify it and then attack me and be like, oh, you're not really, like, a real Christian. I. Or like, you're not really being true to God and what. God's placed his mission on your life because it's personal. Yeah, I think that hurts the most.

Sage (96:46)

Final question. What are you most proud of?

Kristen Hawkins (96:50)

Oh, my family, of course. There's, like, nothing greater you can do as a human being than to bring into this world. Four amazing human beings. That's hands down. I mean, no matter what happens in my work, right? No matter what happens in my mission, no matter what somebody says about me online, I have this incredible family, and I think that's what always comes down to me. That's what we're saying in the pro life movement. It always comes down to. It's our families.

Sage (97:20)

And you are leading by example in the most incredible way. Times four. Four lives that you guys have created while saving millions of lives potentially. Thank you for having the courage that so few have. Honestly, it's been inspiring to watch.

Kristen Hawkins (97:38)

Thank you for your courage, what you've done.

Sage (97:39)

Sage,

Kristen Hawkins (97:42)

you've been incredible out there.

Sage (97:43)

No, not saving lives, girl.

Kristen Hawkins (97:45)

Yes, you are. You absolutely are.

Sage (97:47)

It is really awesome what you've done. And thank goodness someone is out there like you has the courage to fight and to not back down and be aggressive. I am like, oh, she needs.

Kristen Hawkins (97:58)

God's got a plan for all of us. Just have to figure out where he wants all of us.

Sage (98:02)

What an honor.

Kristen Hawkins (98:03)

Thank you. Thank you.