Levi's Former President Jen Sey: Exposing the Truth About "Woke Capitalism" | Sage Steele Show

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Sage Steele Show

Episode: Levi's Former President Jen Sey: Exposing the Truth About "Woke Capitalism"
Host: Sage Steele
Guest: Jennifer Sey (Former President of Levi's, Author, Activist, Founder of XXXY Athletics)
Date: March 11, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode is a deeply personal and candid conversation between Sage Steele and Jennifer Sey, former President of Levi's, about resilience, speaking truth in the face of "woke capitalism," the cost of nonconformity, parental lessons, women’s sports, and the cultural impacts of fear-driven silence. Sey recounts her elite gymnastics background, exposes abuses in the sport, discusses her COVID activism and subsequent "cancellation," and details her journey to launching XXXY Athletics—a brand rooted in truth and biological reality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Early Grit

• Jennifer shares her journey from an elite gymnast—Member of the US national team, national champion, World Championships competitor—to a corporate executive.
• She details severe emotional and physical abuse in elite gymnastics (weight shaming, training on injuries, sexual predation by coaches), which instilled an enduring resilience:
  • “If I could get through that… you think calling me a grifter or a racist that’s going to hurt my feelings and make me stop? You got another thing coming.” ([06:24])
• She was among the first to expose gymnastics abuses in her book, "Chalked Up" ([10:01]).

2. Parental Reflections & Cultural Complicity

• Jen reflects on how her parents and many others trusted coaches/the system in pursuit of success but missed signs of harm.
• She notes the broader culture of obedience and silence in both sports and corporate life, and the painful legacy for her and her family ([14:18]).

3. State of Gymnastics Post-Nassar

• Discusses the SafeSport Act post-Larry Nassar scandal: while legal reforms exist, cultural changes lag and abuses persist ([19:31]).
  • “There’s so many reports…over four years behind. That says to me it hasn’t changed.” ([21:34])
• Tributes Senator Dianne Feinstein for legislating action, but stresses changing the culture is harder.

4. Corporate Ascent and Cancel Culture

• Jen describes her rise at Levi’s from “assistant marketing manager” to “brand president” and the boys’ club culture ([37:09]).
• Her public opposition to COVID lockdowns—especially closing schools—led to criticism, being “cancelled,” and ultimately her resignation.
  • “I was chased down the street. A lady got in my face… told me she wouldn’t care when my children died. It was terrible. But I didn’t stop because I was worried about children. It was wrong.” ([46:39])

5. Political Shifts & ‘Woke Capitalism’

• Sey’s left-wing identity (“super lefty, left of left of center”) shifted, as the Democratic party abandoned values she held dear (free speech, protecting the vulnerable, anti-war) ([39:32]).
• She targets ‘woke capitalism’—brands (notably Nike) touting social justice in public but acting hypocritically internally, especially toward women ([84:26]):
  • “They advertise their wokeness but inside, none of those values are actually acted upon… that’s woke capitalism.” ([85:25])

6. Trans Issues & Language

• Both host and guest express unapologetic positions on gender and sports, refusing to use “trans women” for males competing in women’s divisions:
  • “I’m not going to say transgender women.” ([03:21])
  • “It’s the dumbest thing on earth. This is the dumbest time.” ([69:43])
• Sey emphasizes the importance of accurate language:
  • “The terrible ideas were smuggled in through the language… I will not call a man any kind of woman.” ([78:26])

7. ‘Cancellation,’ Loneliness & Real Friendship

• Sey shares the personal cost of standing up: loss of almost all long-term friends, isolation, and the heartbreak of realizing friendship can hinge on political/ideological agreement ([54:36], [57:35]).
  • “We have this one disagreement, and now you can’t be anymore. F*ck is wrong with you?” ([60:58])
  • Finds solace in her husband’s support, and encouragement from strangers who appreciate her courage.

8. Building XXXY Athletics

• Cancelled from corporate America (unable to get interviews or required to apologize for COVID views), Sey started XXXY Athletics—an athletic brand embracing reality and resisting "woke" pressure.
  • Brands and media (NYT, WSJ, Fox Sports, etc.) won’t take their ad money unless they change their message ([74:56]).

9. Lessons, Confidence, and Advice

• Sey developed confidence in her own intellect and perception—moving past “imposter syndrome.”
  • “Now I’m like, no, I’m seeing this the right way. Even if the whole world is like, ‘no, men who say they’re women are women.’ I can stand it and go, you’re wrong…the three of us are right, and you’re all going to come around to see it.” ([79:39])
• Empowers others to:
  • Speak up: “The truth matters more than whatever name you might be called. You have to do it.” ([90:00])
  • Support the vocal few: “If you’re not ready yet to speak, support the people that do…you have no idea how much it means.” ([98:47])
  • Take risks at any age: “Who says you have to stop trying at 53 or 54 or 55? I’ve got a lot of life left.” ([90:32])
  • “You can do all those things. You can choose to see it as totally liberating.” ([73:08])

10. Legacy and Modeling Bravery for Kids

• Sey wants her kids to remember her as someone “who always says what she thinks,” modeling bravery and helping the next generation break cycles of people-pleasing and fear ([91:16]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you call me a grifter or a racist, that’s gonna hurt my feelings and make me stop? You got another thing coming.”
  — Jennifer Sey ([06:24])
• “This was the most egregious violation of our civil liberties. Not just in America, but internationally.”
  — Jennifer Sey ([49:22])
• “They’d rather talk about, like, demonstrate how to give blowjobs… But mine is offensive.”
  — Jennifer Sey on advertising bans ([76:02])
• “We have to take the culture back with the force that it was taken from us. We can be diplomatic… but I will not call a man any kind of woman.”
  — Jennifer Sey ([78:26])
• “Every corporate leader that reads from the script does exactly as they’re told so they can just take the money. That’s the grift.”
  — Jennifer Sey ([97:44])
• “If you’re not ready yet to support the people that do, you have no idea how much it means… Every time I get one, I cry.”
  — Jennifer Sey ([98:47])
• “I shudder at the thought of having stayed quiet, which is what I was told to do. Would’ve been smarter financially, smarter for who knows, maybe I’d still be working in network TV…But then I wasn’t being true.”
  — Sage Steele ([96:36])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:08 — Jennifer’s background and “cancellation” for COVID views.
• 06:24 — Abuses in elite gymnastics; genesis of resilience.
• 14:18 — Parent perspectives and cultural complicity.
• 19:31 — SafeSport Act and the limitations of legal reform in gymnastics.
• 37:09 — Jen’s corporate ascent and culture at Levi’s.
• 46:39 — Public and corporate backlash to COVID advocacy.
• 54:36 — Friendship lost due to ideological conformity.
• 69:43 — Gender realities and language in sports (“the dumbest time”).
• 74:56 — Mainstream media rejecting XXXY’s unapologetic messaging.
• 79:39 — Overcoming imposter syndrome, standing in truth.
• 90:00 — Advice to women: truth over comfort.
• 97:44 — “The grift is the person that keeps their mouth shut.”
• 98:47 — Encouragement: support those who speak up.
• 102:46 — Wearing the brand as a personal act of courage and encouragement.

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Flow & Tone

The tone is candid, passionate, and empathetic—blending personal narrative, cultural critique, and practical encouragement. Both host and guest speak with warmth, humor, and occasional exasperation about the state of discourse around sex, truth, and “woke” culture. Their honest reflections on risk-taking, fear, and heartbreak make the episode both human and motivating.

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For Listeners

This episode offers an unvarnished look at what it costs—and what you gain—to stand up for truth in the face of social and professional risk. For anyone thinking about speaking out, questioning cultural trends in sports, gender, or business, or for those concerned about the erosion of free speech and the loneliness of true dissent—Jennifer Sey and Sage Steele provide both a map and a lifeline.

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“Wear the damn hat.” – Jennifer Sey ([103:18])

Transcript

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[Sage Steele]

people's opinions about Jennifer say are very mixed.

[Jennifer Sey]

I was an elite gymnast as a child. I was a fashion executive for many years. I got myself good and canceled for standing up for the opening of schools during COVID And that is how I decided to start my own brand, XXXY Athletics.

[Sage Steele]

Are you getting any pushback from Lev

[Jennifer Sey]

about COVID We locked down the world for two years, put two year olds slobbering on themselves en masse. Like, you don't think that's insane? This was the most egregious violation of our civil liberties, not just in America, but internationally.

[Sage Steele]

When you decided to walk away, is there fear?

[Jennifer Sey]

My whole life blew up. I was afraid of being in my 50s and no one would hire me.

[Sage Steele]

So you went from number two, one of the biggest brands ever. You're as low as it gets to. Okay, what the heck is going on with men versus women?

[Jennifer Sey]

Shouldn't be political. The stance on men in women's sports. Correct. I'm not gonna say transgender women.

[Sage Steele]

No, no, no. They're men. We're gonna speak in reality here.

[Jennifer Sey]

I was absolutely emotionally abused by coaches for years. Starved, trained on a broken ankle for two years. You think if you call me a grifter or a racist, that that's gonna hurt my feelings and make me stop?

[Sage Steele]

Did you consider shutting up? People's opinions about Jennifer say are very mixed. She's a polarizing public figure. Here's a balanced overview of what supporters and critics say. Okay, so supporters say she speaks her mind. She Exposed abuse in gymnastics. She advocates for women's sports. True, true, true. What critics say.

[Jennifer Sey]

Come on.

[Sage Steele]

Her Covid views were controversial. Criticism over transgender athlete issues seen as politically divisive.

[Jennifer Sey]

I mean, those are. That's all true.

[Sage Steele]

All of the above.

[Jennifer Sey]

I don't argue any of that. Yeah, it is seen as divisive.

[Sage Steele]

Might be divisive, but it shouldn't be.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, it shouldn't be political. The stance on men in women's sports.

[Sage Steele]

Correct.

[Jennifer Sey]

I'm not gonna say transgender women.

[Sage Steele]

No, no, no. They're men. We're gonna speak in reality here.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So many things to say about all of that. You know, one thing I'll say and then I'll go all the way backwards to the gymnastics recently, because you're right, a lot of people now mostly know me for the brand and they think of me as somebody, you know, pushing back on all the, like, gender crazy. And a lot of them don't know that. The only reason anybody ever followed me on anything was Covid. So I had a bunch of people recently going, okay, you're right about this stuff, but that Covid stuff, you're crazy. You're wrong. That was science. And I'm like, okay, how can you see one but not the other?

[Sage Steele]

Right.

[Jennifer Sey]

How do you see that it's completely insane that people think men can become women, but you don't think it's completely insane that we lock down the world for two years, put two year olds slobbering on themselves en masse and like, you don't think that's insane, but they don't see it. It's weird. Right? Anyway, that's an aside. So they got a little mad at me when they found out that part.

[Sage Steele]

Yes. They discovered you with this. Which.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. Which they like.

[Sage Steele]

I live in this stuff, girl, and it is so beautiful. And I can't wait to go deeper into that because again, like, you created this from nothing. The gymnastics part. Yeah. I mean, you were a national level. I'm not saying this the right way. Excuse me. International level competitor in gymnastics.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yes. I was on the national team for seven years. Eight years. I was the national champion in 1986 and went to World Championships.

[Sage Steele]

All sorts of all around.

[Jennifer Sey]

All around. Yeah. And went to Worlds. So the real kind of crux of my story is in 1985, I was at Worlds. It was my first Worlds, and on my last eighth final event, I fell off bars and broke my femur, which is really bad.

[Sage Steele]

That hurts.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, that really hurt. So everybody assumed, including myself, that I was done. I mean, that's a horrible injury that you don't think you could come back from. Plus, we thought it was my knee, which is worse. But you know about sports injuries. I mean, the knee is often not recoverable. We went to the hospital, French speaking hospital. It was not in America, the world. And the doctors said, it's her femur, not her knee. And we all were so happy. We cheered and they wheeled me into surgery. They fixed it, reduced it, they call it. And I came back nine months later to win USAs.

[Sage Steele]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

[Jennifer Sey]

So I think about that now. It's so long ago. It's like 40 years ago, but I do. It definitely sort of defines me a little.

[Sage Steele]

Like the grit, that toughness, the grit.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Yes. And. Oh, you're gonna tell me I can't do this.

[Jennifer Sey]

Watch. Yeah, that thing. And here's the other. The part I will say is what we endured in gymnastics. Me in that experience, the physical pain, the training environment. Because for all the good stuff, there was a lot of bad stuff. And I know we'll get to that. If I could get through that calling. You think calling me mean names on the Internet is gonna hurt my feelings and make me stop talking? Like, I was surviving on 3 or 400 calories a day. I was just absolutely emotionally abused by coaches for years. Starved, trained on a broken ankle for two years. You think if you call me a grifter or a racist that that's gonna hurt my feelings and make me stop, you got another thing coming. You think if you tell me to stop saying something or else I'm gonna stop. I mean, if I can get through that, that's my. I mean, no kid should have to get through that. So that's a problem. But I have a lot of endurance.

[Sage Steele]

That's a great point. That most people. Yeah, they didn't know that or maybe fully appreciate that about you. Like what you went through as a teenager.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Like, was preparing you for this.

[Jennifer Sey]

I think so. There was a lot to overcome from it as well. Because in gymnastics, I can't speak for other sports, but in that sport in particular, you know, you know, the girls are particularly young when they kind of excel younger back then. It's changing a little bit. You are to be seen and not heard. Obedience is required. It's a subjective sport. So if they don't like you, they give you a bad score.

[Sage Steele]

Totally.

[Jennifer Sey]

If the coach on the national team doesn't like you, even if you were first in the qualifier, he won't put you on the floor. So you kind of have to be really quiet in line.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Oh my gosh. All the parallels.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. So I, and I think I leaned that way. You're gonna laugh, but I do think I sort of leaned that way.

[Sage Steele]

Well, that makes sense. Especially at that age and when you.

[Jennifer Sey]

Girl. Teenage girl, yes.

[Sage Steele]

In the 80s. Exactly.

[Jennifer Sey]

I was very compliant. I also felt like, you know, I went to this gym at 13 or 14 that was like one of the best in the country. And the training intensified. I was already on the national team, but it got like way more intense and it crossed into abuse. But I sort of, in my mind felt like, this is the deal I'm making. I will do everything you say and you'll give me back what I want, which is to be top three, top six. And so I did it, no matter how awful it seems. And they convince you. I mean, you're brainwashed because it's like a weird microcosmic world that, that's just tough coaching, not abuse. But when you put a 14 year old on the scale every day, twice a day, and announce her weight on the loudspeaker in the gym and call her a fat pig, and I don't coach fat gymnasts. And Jen says not going to nationals if she doesn't lose three pounds by tomorrow. I mean, I don't think that's a fuzzy line. I think that's pretty bad, don't you?

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, I'm blown away and I shouldn't be because I've heard my whole life since being involved in sports and talking about sports, about the abuses in certain sports in particular. Yeah. Obviously gymnastics is what other one, the top of the list? Well, ice skating, similar sports. Yeah. Where they're all subjective. And then with girls, of course, I

[Jennifer Sey]

think swimming is very bad too. Even though it's not subjective.

[Sage Steele]

Even though it's not subjective.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. There's something about individual sports where the relationship with the coach is sort of more intense. I think when I wrote my. I did write a book in 2008 called Chalked up and I was the first elite level gymnast that wrote about the abuse. And I mean, I was almost 40 when I wrote it, but I. And I was very successful at the time, you know, I had a real career. You know, I was already a vice president at Levi's, I had two kids, I was married. Everything on paper looked great. But I really struggled with self esteem and anxiety and depression. And as I sat to try to think about that, it all kept coming back to the sport and the abuse, the emotional abuse, the Physical abuse, being surrounded by sexual predators, and being told, just stay out of his way. Just avoid him. Like, the adults in charge told us that the national team coach who had been the 84 Olympic coach, I went all around the world with him. I went to Moscow, I went to France, I went to England, Italy. We did this world tour. Is that Bella, Carolyn? No, it's before Bella. His name is Don Peters. He was the 84 Olympic team coach. He was a known. I'm not even gonna say pedophile rapists. And we were just told, don't let Don in your room.

[Sage Steele]

They all knew and allowed it.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. So I wrote about this in my book because obviously the worst thing is to have been sexually assaulted by the man. And the reason I knew it was happening is one of my friends from the national team, who I ended up going to college with, who is now still one of my friends, told me what happened to her. So I knew the whole thing. And she told me I could write about it. But think about what that does to all the other girls, too. To say, just stay away from him. Don't let it. Don't close the door if he comes in your room. In fact, just don't let him in your room. It's like saying he. It is saying he matters more than you. Fend for yourself.

[Sage Steele]

You'll be fine.

[Jennifer Sey]

Just stay away. Just stay away.

[Sage Steele]

Instead of, this is a bad person, an evil person, and we're going to protect you. Because you're a child, by the way.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. I mean, we were 14, 15, 16,

[Sage Steele]

and parents not around, because that's what gymnastics is when you are shipped off to some of these training facilities. Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

I didn't live at home when I was 14. I went to live with a coach in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Eventually, my mom came and we lived in an apartment, and then we all moved there. But I didn't tell my parents they weren't allowed in the gym for the most part. And I didn't tell them because I didn't want them to take it away from me. And the parents get brainwashed into the. This is how it's. This is how it is. This is tough coaching. If you can't take it, then your child's too weak to make it. I mean, I know a lot of parents, or quite a few parents who are parents of some of the victims of Larry Nassar. I mean, they can't forgive themselves because they sent their kids off to the national training camps at the Karolee Ranch thinking they were just supporting their kid. And all their hopes and dreams and the kids were abused there.

[Sage Steele]

I get that. As a parent, when you think I should have asked more questions, I should have checked in, I shouldn't. I should have gotten an apartment there sooner, whatever that may be. But there is a trust that it's almost not quite the level of like doctors, where we trust the medical profession, but it's maybe similar because their expertise, the coach. They're the coach, they're the leader. They're the one that knows what it takes because they've been there and trust me. And I have your kids. Bet. And especially if as a parent and you have four kids, I have three kids. When you know they're talented, you're like, I'm gonna give them every opportunity to succeed. And if that means shipping them off and that's what they say they want.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And the coach says, she could go to the Olympics.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, you're gonna do it.

[Sage Steele]

So the best of intentions with parents. That's right.

[Jennifer Sey]

And that's been very hard. That was. I mean, not now, you know, it's been 40 years.

[Sage Steele]

But what was that like for you?

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

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[Jennifer Sey]

Well, I don't think they realized all that was going on ever, until I, like, wrote the book 20 years later. And I definitely came after them. I mean, the book. If you write a book. I have written two. Have you written a book?

[Sage Steele]

It's the bane of my existence. I am in the beginning process, and I keep running away from it like an idiot, Like a petty, petulant child.

[Jennifer Sey]

You're just horrible.

[Sage Steele]

She's like, don't do it. Where's Dave?

[Jennifer Sey]

It's awful. I'll probably do it again at some point, but it's brutal. It's like childbirth.

[Sage Steele]

It hurts. It hurts. I'll never do it again. And then do it again. Do it really fast.

[Jennifer Sey]

Just sit down and take the pain. Both my books I've written so fast.

[Sage Steele]

What's fast?

[Jennifer Sey]

Like three months.

[Sage Steele]

Okay, keep going.

[Jennifer Sey]

Like, I just make it my job anyway. When I sat down to write it, it was really to kind of make sense of it and figure it was like a. I don't like the phrase journaling, but it was like that. Like, I gotta figure this out. I wasn't famous, I wasn't a writer. Like, I didn't even know if I would get it published. But I was obsessed with memoirs. And I was like, what do I like about memoirs? When it has to be well written and it has to be this interesting world that you don't know about that's compelling sports. Right. But has, like, themes that can be extracted for everyday folks that aren't so specific. Do you know what I mean?

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

So I wrote it mostly as like a coming of age story. So I was this person who did everything I was told to do until at 19, I walked out the door, the gym. But I also told myself before I wrote it, you have to be as honest as possible, even when it makes you look bad and it makes other people in your life look bad. So, yeah, I mean, a lot of people read it and were like, what was wrong with her parents?

[Sage Steele]

When you say you came after them when.

[Jennifer Sey]

After I didn't came out. That's too harsh of a way. I was just really honest. Like, my dad was a pediatrician. I think all the signs were there when I started to unravel. But by his own admission, I was winning. And so they assumed I had to Be happy. And I think he.

[Sage Steele]

And you were happy when you won,

[Jennifer Sey]

of course, for, like, the three seconds. Yeah, I think. But if you witness your child unraveling, meaning I had a severe eating disorder, I was clearly had gone from a pretty joyful child to completely, you know, depressed. I think a parent can see that.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

But, you know, he says, you were winning. We thought you were happy.

[Sage Steele]

Where is this board of gymnastics today? After Larry Nassar, after everything has been exposed, where are we with it today?

[Jennifer Sey]

That is a great question. I think everybody likes to think it's better. So the Nassar case first got exposed in 2016. He went to prison for life in 2018. What most people don't know is what sent him to prison for life was the child porn. Yeah, that was mostly it, because that's a federal crime in all of that. What happened is the Safe Sport act was introduced and that established. For instance, coaches were never mandatory. Reporters like teachers, social workers, doctors. So a coach could observe that another coach was assaulting or abusing or sexually abusing a child, and that other coach didn't have to report it.

[Sage Steele]

That's crazy.

[Jennifer Sey]

That's crazy. That's how it was.

[Sage Steele]

And it's so interesting because in gymnastics, it feels like at the elite levels, there were more male coaches than female coaches. I don't know what it's like in the college collegiate level.

[Jennifer Sey]

Correct. The women are bad, too, though. I gotta just say, some of the worst coaches I ever had were women. But the men are bad. And what you just hit on is really interesting because most of them were never gymnasts. And even if they were, men's gymnastics is a totally different sport. It's not like running the 100 yard dash, which is the same in men's and women. Different events, different. Everything isn't even nearly as fun to

[Sage Steele]

watch, by the way.

[Jennifer Sey]

Men's. Yeah. No, they go into women's, I think, because that's the only way you can really make a living. There just aren't that many boys who do gymnastics. Yeah. But I think some of them go into women's for the wrong reason. For. Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, like any child predator, they go where the children are.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

So the State Safe Sport act was established, I think, in 2017, and that revolved around everything that had happened and been exposed with Nassar. And I was there for the first meeting with, actually, Senator Dianne Feinstein on this subject. And I gotta give her mad props. She got it done.

[Sage Steele]

Really.

[Jennifer Sey]

She totally did. She said to us, there were 10 or 12 of us in the room, everybody told their story. I was like the voice of history because everybody else was a young current competitor, pretty much. And I was there to say, this is not just one man. This is the whole thing. It's rotten. And she stood up and she said, I'm going to get this done. I'm going to get bipartisan support. I will change the laws. That will not change the culture. You guys have to do that. She was 1000% right.

[Sage Steele]

It's true.

[Jennifer Sey]

So I don't think the culture has changed. There is a reporting mechanism for abuse now. There's training that athletes are supposed to go to. What's appropriate, what's not appropriate. Coaches are supposed to go through training. But safe sport is also the mechanism that athletes report in abuse. They're over four years behind.

[Sage Steele]

Whoa.

[Jennifer Sey]

Because there's so many reports. Oh, my God. That says to me it hasn't changed. I mean, my coaches. This is crazy. So I wrote in detail about things that I saw, that I endured, that they did. There was a SafeSport report in like, 2017 or 18 about my coaches, which I got ahold of. All the same things I'd written about, you know, 10 years earlier, which no one did anything about. There shouldn't need to be a report if somebody's. And plus they were doing it publicly on the competition floor. You could see what they were doing. Took six years from when that those reports happened till all my coaches were banned and they had all retired at that point.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So.

[Jennifer Sey]

So I don't think it's. Who knows? I don't think it's better. Right.

[Sage Steele]

So who knows what other abuses took place at their hands in those six years.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. The 10 years between when I wrote about it and the new reports, which were exactly what I wrote in my book. And then another six or seven years after that, they just kept doing the same things. So I don't think it's better, which

[Sage Steele]

is heartbreaking because it's such a. We were talking the other day about, okay, if you could pick three sports in the Summer Olympics, what are the three that you'd go see? And for me, it's swimming, track and field, and women's gymnastics. No question. I just have always been in awe.

[Jennifer Sey]

I agree with that.

[Sage Steele]

What you can do.

[Jennifer Sey]

Did you know women's gymnastics? Well, you know, you know all about sports. It's usually the most watched sport in the Summer Games.

[Sage Steele]

Yes, I'd say that. And track and field are probably right there. Yeah. And then swimming's always right there, especially during the Michael Phelps years, you know, but then there's the ugliness, the ugliness behind it. So between the abuses that you endured, the eating disorders, et cetera, every day, thousands of women hear the same devastating lie. That abortion is their only option, that they're alone, that no one will help them. But everything changes the moment a mother in crisis walks into a Preborn Network clinic. Preborn provides free ultrasounds so a mom can actually see the life growing inside of her. And often for the very first time. That single moment changes everything. In fact, when a mother sees her baby on a preborn ultrasound, she chooses life more than 80% of the time, because it's not just an image on a screen. It's a child made in the image of God. And preborn does not stop at birth. They surround moms with real practical support. So cribs, diapers, formula, clothing, parenting classes, medical care, and ongoing encouragement for up to two years at no cost. They're not just helping babies survive, they're helping families thrive. Right now, women are being pressured to make irreversible decisions in moments of fear and panic. But they don't have to face that alone. This March, Preborn is striving to save 6,800 babies from abortion. Help them meet this goal. For just $28, you can provide one life saving ultrasound. A donation of $140 can help five mothers choose life to give. Simply call 250 and say, Baby, that's pound 250, baby. Or visit preborn.com sage that's preborn.com sage if you had a little girl, and I know you do have a little girl, but is she in gymnastics?

[Jennifer Sey]

She does not have that obedient temperament. So, no, it didn't go well.

[Sage Steele]

Okay. Yeah, Good.

[Jennifer Sey]

In a good way.

[Sage Steele]

Whatever's meant to go well. Yes. So if you had a little girl who said, I want to be a gymnast, and you saw that they had talent. Yeah. And that they were going to, they had the potential to rise up in the ranks, what would you, as a parent, say and do?

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, I let her do it. I mean, gymnastics is so fun. Like, what's more fun for a little kid and flipping in the air? So she did do it recreationally. I actually think she was pretty, Is pretty talented. She's very physical. I think you just watch your kid, and I think there are kids that come through the sport unscathed, you know, that have supportive coaches. It exists. If you know your kid, you pay attention, you try to understand the coach's philosophy. Are you Developing the whole child or are you like beating them into submission to create what you think is the only way to create a champion, which is a lie. That's not the only way. I have a different perspective, which is I don't really want my kids being that serious about anything.

[Sage Steele]

As kids, any sport, I say this,

[Jennifer Sey]

and my 11 year old is very serious about soccer. So I'm sort of talking out of both sides of my mouth. But I feel like life is hard and there's plenty of time to be a grown up.

[Sage Steele]

Well, gymnastics and at that level, at your international level, makes you grow up best. Like, do you feel like you lost part of your childhood?

[Jennifer Sey]

I had no childhood. I mean, I didn't even go to school. I did go to school. You know, some kids don't go to school at all, which I guess is normal now because people homeschool. But I did go to school, but I left early. I mean, my whole life I don't really remember school. I went to three different high schools because I was moving gyms and moving around and I was only there a few hours a day. My life was in the gym. I don't remember the rest of life. Yeah, you know, and in the gym your teammates are your competitors. You don't really have any friends, you know, and you just train. I was training, you know, six hours a day by the time I was 10. That's the age I made my first national team. And it was, you know, eight hours by the time I was 13. And in the summers it was 10 hours. So I mean, my son is really serious and he loves soccer, but he's 11 and I think the amount that he plays, he has fun. I can see that he's having fun. He's not training six hours a day. Like I wouldn't pull him out of school.

[Sage Steele]

So for parents it's paying attention to the signs. And even if they're winning, right, like your dad said, even if you're winning, look deeper. And if you see those changes, and obviously boys can have eating disorders as well, We've seen an increase in that.

[Jennifer Sey]

But with girls, yes, you should know your kid if you're really paying attention. And all your adult aspirations that you're pouring into this poor child because maybe your sporting career wasn't what you wanted it to be. I have to say, I can't. The parents at these soccer games. Oh, I can't. Yeah, no, I have to like stand all by myself on the other side because I'm like, you guys are crazy.

[Sage Steele]

They're insane. And then they're living life vicariously through their kids, and what they didn't accomplish has to.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's like, Your kid is 11. He's pretty good. But, like, what are you doing? I mean, the dad's yelling at that. It just. Like, there's this balance that has to be struck as a parent with being supportive if your kid wants to keep doing it, and also letting them know at any time, it's okay if they don't. And you love them anyway, and you don't love them for the sport.

[Sage Steele]

Yes.

[Jennifer Sey]

And it's a really hard balance. And, you know, my parents missed on it sometimes, and my parents always loved me, no matter what. But here, I'll give you an example. My mom is a very nervous person. She couldn't really watch me. So I remember it was World Championship Trials, 1985. I think I placed second all around, which was my highest placement. So I made Worlds. And I come off after the first day and I find my dad in the crowd, and I'm like, where's Mom? Like, we're so excited, Right? I'm in the top three. I'd never been in the top three. And he said, oh, she left. She hasn't watched any of it. She's at the hotel. She couldn't watch it. She was. She was too nervous. And I get that feeling as a parent, being that I don't really. I mean. But it said to me at the time that it was so important, she couldn't bear to see it, for her, go.

[Sage Steele]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, I remember feeling that at the time.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

When, as a parent, your job is to be there when it doesn't go well.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

And say you can be anything you want.

[Sage Steele]

That's a big deal.

[Jennifer Sey]

And I don't fault her for it. She was just nervous. Imagine how hard, as a parent, to watch gymnastics, how dangerous it is.

[Sage Steele]

It's so dangerous. Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

And, you know, she'd seen me break my ankle before. Every injury I ever got, I got in competition, which is unusual, but you have to do it. You have to force yourself to be there. You can't be so nervous that you can't watch because it says it matters too much. It says it matters too much. It's a hard balance. It has to matter, but not so much that you can't face it, that

[Sage Steele]

you can't watch it. As we Prepare for the 250th anniversary of America, I think it's worth pausing to remember the people who helped build this country long before it was trendy. To talk about values or culture, I'm talking about American ranchers. For generations, through wars, recessions, droughts, and everything in between, ranchers have shown up every single day to feed this country. No spotlight, no applause, just hard work and pride in doing things the right way. That's the legacy behind good ranchers. And one of the things I really respect about good ranchers is that they've built their entire business around supporting American agriculture. So instead of importing meat from overseas, like so many companies do, they partner directly with ranchers right here in the US So when you're ordering from them, you know exactly what you're supporting. The meat is sourced here, processed here, packaged here, and shipped from here. It keeps the entire supply chain in America. And that, of course, supports American ranchers and American workers all the way through. To me, that kind of commitment to doing things the right way really, really matters. And I'll tell you this honestly, we're subscribers ourselves, my family and I get good ranchers delivered to our home and. And it's become one of the things that just makes life easier. The quality is excellent, and I love knowing exactly where the meat that we are serving comes from. What I also appreciate is the flexibility. So if we're traveling or things get busy, which they do, it's very simple to adjust your delivery, delay a boxer, or even skip an order if you need to. Straightforward, convenient, and it fits into reality real life. To support a company that's committed to honoring America's past, present, and future, visit goodrantures.com to. When you start your plan, you're going to get to pick a free meat that will be included in every order for life. And you'll get 25 bucks off your first order using my code Sage. So that's code sage for $25 off your first order. Goodranchers.com, american meat delivered. I think of Ellie Raisman's parents in the stands, and they're literally everybody.

[Jennifer Sey]

Movement. But they're there.

[Sage Steele]

They're so uncomfortable. But they're going to see every single step she takes.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yes.

[Sage Steele]

And I mean, I remember when my daughter was riding horses, and I think because I and I used to ride, so I, you know, kind of knew more than some of the other parents, maybe. And you're like,

[Jennifer Sey]

but you gotta watch.

[Sage Steele]

You have to. Because first of all, you paid for all this stuff, right? But gymnastics is so expensive, too, like the horse thing. But you want to, no matter what,

[Jennifer Sey]

you have to be there, hug that kid afterwards.

[Sage Steele]

Doesn't mean you can't discuss what went wrong or right. But, like, you hug them and you say, it's okay. You got it. Let's go. We're gonna do it again and uplift them.

[Jennifer Sey]

You have to. You have to. That's what it's for. And I also remember if I had a bad competition, if I fell and I had to get back up and finish the routine, which is, like, a devastatingly hard thing to do, I was more afraid to face the wrath of my coaches when I came off than my own discipline, because they were brutal. And so all the more reason you need your parent.

[Sage Steele]

Yes. To not be like the coaches. Yes. And I love you no matter what.

[Jennifer Sey]

And I love you no matter what, so. But it's really hard when a kid gets to that level. There's so much at stake. The parents inevitably get caught up in it. They just do. They inevitably get caught up in it. I mean, imagine having a kid on a national team at 10. 10 is such a big. I mean, my kids are 9 and 11. Like, I can't even imagine one of them shipping one off for two weeks to the Olympic training center for a training camp, which is what I was doing at 10, 10, to have coaches, like, scream at me. And it's just. So that's why. That's too much, I think, for a little. Little kid. I also think certain sports, you have more longevity. You know, gymnastics, it used to be viewed that you had this very narrow window of opportunity. You know, you were done if you went through puberty, basically, which is why the eating disorders. Right. They wanted you to stave off puberty as long as possible. But you all. It's why you went back on injuries, because you couldn't miss a season because you were done at 18.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, I remember.

[Jennifer Sey]

Which is a huge problem. You don't have to be done at 18. Let the injury heal, go another season. But if the thinking is you only have four seasons as an elite, that's what it's called, the level you're going no matter what. And now we've seen with Simone, who just won the Olympics at 27, that that isn't the case. So hopefully that improves things too, because I think that created a lot of abuse.

[Sage Steele]

Yes.

[Jennifer Sey]

The viewing it that way.

[Sage Steele]

Well, yeah. Because, you know, you have such a limited window. It's like, go. Go now or go home, basically.

[Jennifer Sey]

Right. And if they ruin you in that process, there's another girl right behind you.

[Sage Steele]

Yep.

[Jennifer Sey]

Next.

[Sage Steele]

You know, this is what I hope people appreciate, because they love Your brand, but to know the why behind it. And it did start here with being an elite athlete has a baby. That toughness, and that's the toughness that made me help me discover you in the first place is from your prior life as, I mean, you climbed through the ranks. But eventually president of Levi's. Like, it's a massive job.

[Jennifer Sey]

It is a big job at a company and like a brand that I'd loved since I was my first pair of Levi's. I was 6 years old, baby blue cords in the 70s. It was an honor. You know, it was not my first job. I had worked at the Gap. I had worked at an advertising agency. The Gap and Levi's are like a mile apart from each other. People just. It's like a moving sidewalk. The employees. But I got there in 1999. I took a downgraded position because I wanted to work there because I loved the brand. And it was kind of when they were just on. It was like the 90s was a good time for Levi. Started to go downhill fast after that. And I just wanted to be there. And I liked it. I liked the environment. I mean, there were a lot of things about it that weren't great. I mean, I'm sure you know, you know this coming up in corporate America in the 90s and early 2000s, it was a boys club, totally not all fashion brands, but Levi's was. It wasn't like a typical fashion, fashiony place. So that was hard. And I got to make that better as I moved up, which was really. I'm proud of that you went for.

[Sage Steele]

What was your entry position?

[Jennifer Sey]

I was an assistant marketing manager. Literally as low as you could be. Like there isn't really lower.

[Sage Steele]

Assistant marketing manager.

[Jennifer Sey]

I mean, maybe like the call center, I don't know. But like it's look. And I ended as brand president. Most people, I was the chief marketing officer for eight years, which is a really long time to be a cmo. Yeah, most people, it's a year and a half or two years and then they get fired. So it's a testament to the fact, I think, that I was good at the job. I also probably didn't push hard enough to get to the next level faster, but. And that during that time we turned the brand around, me and my partner in design who did all the product and. And then we had a very successful IPO in 2019 because we'd been private. So I'm very proud of that. Yeah, I loved it.

[Sage Steele]

I didn't work there until when.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, my Whole life took a turn during COVID like yours. The irony is. So the whole gymnastics thing, I didn't say this, but when I wrote the book, the pushback was really intense. Like, that was my first time dealing with the whole, you're a liar, you're a grifter. Back in the day, it wasn't you're a racist or a fascist, but I was a liar and a grifter. I did not expect that. And it was from my teammates who knew I was telling the truth. But it got me ready. And I felt like somebody, Somebody has to stand up for these kids. I don't want another kid to go

[Sage Steele]

through what I went through.

[Jennifer Sey]

So I kept going and actually got louder the more that USA Gymnastics and the US Olympic Committee tried to call me terrible names. And then the Nassar story broke. And then it was like, oh, she was right about everything. All the people.

[Sage Steele]

Did you hear from people?

[Jennifer Sey]

Oh, yeah.

[Sage Steele]

That's surprising. I guess you usually. They tend to just disappear.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, that's true. Most pretended they always had been with me. And I went back and I looked at really mean reviews on Amazon. People I knew read and they've taken it all down. So most people. Yeah, I didn't, but a few I did that are notable. Anyway, right around that redemption is when Covid started.

[Sage Steele]

And at the time you lived in the Bay Area.

[Jennifer Sey]

I lived in San Francisco for 35 years.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Of all places.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, I was super lefty.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, I was gonna say. I'm glad you said it. You were. Oh, you can say it. You were a left wing nut job. Hey, San Francisco. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[Jennifer Sey]

I always said I was left of left of center, but let me just tell you why I said that and why I thought I was. And maybe I was. I believed in free speech. I believed in protecting the little guy from greedy corporate interests. Even though I worked in a company. I tried to be very fair and transparent about the way I manage my team. Protecting the vulnerable children and anti war. Those were my four. The Democrats are none of those things anymore.

[Sage Steele]

No, not one. And it's shocking because it's been a fast turn.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's astonishing. And I. You might disagree with me. I actually think they were once a lot of people. Like, no, they weren't. They never were. I don't know. Maybe it was a lie.

[Sage Steele]

Not all four.

[Jennifer Sey]

They weren't all four, but they were. They were free speech.

[Sage Steele]

They were free speech. Hey. They were pro legal immigration. They were a lot of things.

[Jennifer Sey]

That's what I'm saying that's true. I mean, that's what I'm just. I'm not as different. Like, I haven't taken this hard turn. Right. I feel like I'm the same. It's that meme that Colin Wright did. They all just.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, no. This is what Bill Maher talks about with classic liberalism versus woke left bs.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Like, common sense is what you were. And more now than ever are.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. And so Covid happened. I was redeemed in the gymnastics world and beyond. And I made a movie called Athlete A that came out in 2020 and we won an Emmy. And that was like a big moment. And simultaneously, all of San Francisco shut down. And from day one, both me and my husband were like, oh, no, this is bad. They're never going to open it up. They're going to take that power. They're never going to cede that power. We didn't believe two weeks, three weeks, any of it. Two weeks to slow the spread. And so we were very against it from the beginning. Now, me being against it, I was no. 1. I have a social media following. I wasn't. I was just like, you know, a lady with four kids who had a big job. But, like, I wasn't known.

[Sage Steele]

Right.

[Jennifer Sey]

You know, I think I had like 2000 followers on Twitter or something. But I was mental. I mean, I was like, demented with. This is so messed up. Not demented. I was seen clearly. And so right from the beginning. And I don't think I understood how people. How demented the other people were. The pro lockdown.

[Sage Steele]

Yes, all the time.

[Jennifer Sey]

Covid crazy was. And the country at first.

[Sage Steele]

No, absolutely. It was everywhere.

[Jennifer Sey]

I mean, it's hard to find many people who even who became known as dissidents who right then in March were.

[Sage Steele]

No, I think it was. It took, you know, the two weeks and to flatten the curve and all that. And so give it a month or two. And then, I mean, Ron DeSantis in Florida opened stuff up pretty quickly. There were people who were like, huh. You know, and just questioning. We were questioning from day one. What was the turning point?

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, I questioned from day one.

[Sage Steele]

Right. But then did you question. When did you question out loud?

[Jennifer Sey]

Day one. You can find face. I mean, but like I said, I was no. 1.

[Sage Steele]

Okay.

[Jennifer Sey]

So it didn't matter.

[Sage Steele]

Okay.

[Jennifer Sey]

I thought. Yeah, I got into fights with, you know, my family on Facebook and friends. And then I left Facebook for Twitter because I thought, well, at least there I don't know anyone, so maybe that's better than my family yelling at me that I'm a murderer because I thought everything should open. And then we called ourselves open schools Moms like I we all connected around the country and a lot of us were lefties and we connected. I mean I pretty much wasn't anymore already because it felt like such a trespass of the left stated values that I couldn't and I got a following and then I was on like the local news and I would have protests locally to open the schools. I stayed very focused on kids because I thought we could all. That was the bridge builder.

[Sage Steele]

Yes, to protect the kids.

[Jennifer Sey]

It wasn't bridge builder. Nobody. Everybody wanted lockdowns forever. Sage people chased me down the street in San Francisco. You weren't allowed to go beyond a mile radius of your house.

[Sage Steele]

You had. I didn't know that you couldn't go

[Jennifer Sey]

anywhere you could get We've talked before

[Sage Steele]

about why I like Oneskin. It's not hype or fancy packaging. It's real science. What first caught my attention is that Oneskin was founded by female PhD scientists who actually study longevity. They ask a simple but fascinating question. If a lot of visible aging, like wrinkles, fine lines and loss of elasticity is driven by senescent cells, what would happen if you could reduce those cells instead of just covering them up? That research led to their proprietary OS1 peptide, which is the first ingredient proven to target those senescent cells and help slow skin aging at the source. Personally, I love how easy it is to work one skin into my routine. I use the moisturizer daily. It feels really lightweight, it absorbs fast and my skin feels stronger and more hydrated. Over time I've noticed better texture, smoother skin, and fewer random dry patches. And this isn't just my experience. Oneskin's products are backed by extensive lab and clinical data, including four peer reviewed clinical studies to validate their efficacy and safety on all skin types. Plus They've got over 10,000 five star reviews and and they've recently been featured by Bloomberg as a leader in skin longevity. You don't need a complicated routine to achieve healthier, younger looking skin. Born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code sage at OneSkin co. Sage. That's 15% off at OneSkin Co with Code Sage and after you purchase they're gonna ask you where you heard about them. Please support Our show. And tell them we sent you.

[Jennifer Sey]

They arrested people surfing in the water.

[Sage Steele]

This is so stupid. California. So stupid.

[Jennifer Sey]

Playgrounds were closed for 10 months. I was livid. I was outraged. My kids are all in public school. I was like, this is really bad for all the school, for all the children. And the public school children in particular are the most vulnerable. 60% are free and reduced lunch. In San Francisco, the private schools were open. I couldn't stand the hypocrisy. I was being chased down the street. A lady got in my face, screaming at me because they recognized me after I was on the local news and stuff, that she wouldn't care when my children died. It was terrible. Terrible. But I didn't stop.

[Sage Steele]

Why?

[Jennifer Sey]

Because I was worried about children. It was the children. And it was wrong. It was all so wrong. I mean, it wasn't just wrong because of the data that children were at no risk. It was wrong to suspend all of our civil liberties like that with the wave of a wand. I mean, the precedent, the idea that there's a degree to which Covid was dangerous enough that they could suspend your civil liberties is a flawed premise, because then they'll manufacture that level of danger, which they did. So there's like. That's why. It's like, no two weeks, no nothing. You can never do that.

[Sage Steele]

No.

[Jennifer Sey]

People can stay home if they want. Anyway, cut to. Didn't go super well for me in my city. I ended up leaving because literally getting chased down the street and because I wanted my kids to go to school. So we moved to Colorado. And this is 21. February, March, January 21st.

[Sage Steele]

And during this time, are you.

[Jennifer Sey]

I still worked at Levi's.

[Sage Steele]

Are you getting any pushback from Levi's for your voice about COVID About just wanting to keep kids in school. Right.

[Jennifer Sey]

It wasn't easy.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

Corporate leaders from across the country were coming to, like. It was terrible. I'll just leave it at that. It was terrible. People were getting canceled like crazy, too. Like, starting the summer of 2020, for all the. Like, there was just. Cancellations were rampant. I was being threatened with it all the time. The more people came for me from corporate America, you know, outside of my company, from inside San Francisco, the more I just was like, I'm gonna do. There's something wrong with me. The more people came after me, the more I got louder.

[Sage Steele]

Did you consider shutting up? Wow, that's. That's impressive. Because when they're all coming after you and you know that there's bosses, whatever, co workers, who are like, Stop. I don't know if that happened or not. You don't have to answer. But, like, when you start feeling that and hearing it and witnessing it, when people chase you down the street and you still didn't consider stopping. No, it just doesn't mean that goes back to someone saying, you can't do that. And you're like, wait a minute. But it doesn't make sense. And now I'm gonna show you.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

That's not why you did it. Is to show anybody you did it because it was wrong.

[Jennifer Sey]

But I did it because I was. It was this sage. I still can't believe people, they don't care. This was the most egregious violation of our civil liberties. Not just in America, but internationally, around the world. I mean, granted, some countries don't have civil liberties, but, like, the entire world shut down for a year and a half. There was a full year and a half more in the United States that it was disrupted for children in schools, and weird shit was going on and nobody wants to talk about it now. My mind is blown. Like, that was the test run, you know? And everybody wants to move on, I think partly because so many people were complicit and went along, and they really don't want to examine their behaviors. Because if everybody had just said, no, I'm not gonna shut my business down. I'm not doing it.

[Sage Steele]

If half of the people had said that. Half, yeah, literally. Or maybe even less.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. Like, we had none.

[Sage Steele]

Except your governor. He did whatever he wanted. French laundry. He's like, do as I say, not as I do.

[Jennifer Sey]

He's a viable. I mean, I don't think he's really a viable presidential candidate, but he's considered one.

[Sage Steele]

Well, what do they say? He looks presidential, so therefore he must qualify. I can't.

[Jennifer Sey]

He looks like American Psycho.

[Sage Steele]

Anyway, now we have his wife lecturing us, so. That's nice.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, he. I didn't.

[Sage Steele]

All your former neighbors.

[Jennifer Sey]

I don't know why. I don't know what's wrong with me. It doesn't mean I didn't cry a lot. It doesn't mean it wasn't really hard. I will say the thing that made it better is my husband and I agreed on everything. And so we were always like this. I couldn't have gotten through it without that. It was really hard. I mean, I ended up resigning in 2022. I'd already left San Francisco, so.

[Sage Steele]

Is that 23 years at the company? 23 years. And why did you resign?

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, I was not moving back To San Francisco. That was part of it. I'd moved to Colorado so my kids could go to school. I didn't want anything to do with San Francisco ever again. I really could never go back there. Honestly, it was horrible. People. It was like the center of people turning you in for, like, having people in your house. Yeah. It was like the Stasi was on Thanksgiving Day. So that's definitely part of. Was time for me to go. 23 years. I got promoted during COVID from chief marketing officer to brand president. I achieved everything I wanted. I had gotten to the point, honestly, look, there was conflict in the city, in the company, in corporate America more broadly. That was difficult. But even before that, I was really bored. 23 years is a long time.

[Sage Steele]

It's a long time.

[Jennifer Sey]

How long were you at ESPN?

[Sage Steele]

Almost 17.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's a long time.

[Sage Steele]

It's a very long time.

[Jennifer Sey]

And from a business challenge standpoint, I got to the point where I was like, I know how to do it all. That sounds really arrogant. It's not really my way. I knew that.

[Sage Steele]

You need a challenge.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And that's okay. But if not for Covid, do you think you'd still be there?

[Jennifer Sey]

Probably. I wouldn't have started a business in my 50s.

[Sage Steele]

Well, that's for sure.

[Jennifer Sey]

I mean, that's kind of an insane person. Am I right?

[Sage Steele]

Okay, hold that thought. Let me get back to that in a second. But at the end of the day, to make the decision, for all intents and purposes, to walk away from that kind of a job, especially at the top, as a woman, that matters. That's rare. And especially in that industry, Right in the boys club, everything that you said you've pushed through when you decided to walk away, was there fear?

[Jennifer Sey]

Was there Tons. Yeah, terrified.

[Sage Steele]

But you knew it was right then.

[Jennifer Sey]

I knew it was right, but I was terrified. I mean, I was scared. I didn't know how. I mean, I knew I was good at business, whatever that means, but I. It was one brand. I knew it was one business. I knew I was afraid I wouldn't be able to apply that to any other. Do you know what? I knew that brand like it was my kid. So I was afraid of that. I was afraid of being in my 50s and no one would hire me. I was right. But it was because of COVID that no one would hire me. Not because being in my 50s, I was. Look, I did well over the years, but not so well that I don't have to work and I'm the breadwinner. So, yeah, I was terrified. My whole life blew up. I had a new city. I'm sure you've experienced. I mean, maybe you haven't experienced this because you didn't come from the left. One friend of the last 30 years that still talks to me. One, pretty much.

[Sage Steele]

And based on what?

[Jennifer Sey]

Covid.

[Sage Steele]

That is insane to me. It's insane.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, then I nailed the coffin shut with my no men and women saying

[Sage Steele]

that mentioned in women's sports. I know. Well, it's shocking.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's shocking. And, you know, most of my friends are coastal elites. I mean, I think half of them have a kid that identifies as trans

[Sage Steele]

because they refuse to parent, in my opinion.

[Jennifer Sey]

I don't even know why. It's the environment. It's crazy. And they are, you know, warring for children to be able to declare that they are a different sex and to take terrible, toxic, wrong sex hormones and I am a bad person.

[Sage Steele]

Does that hurt you? Oh, yeah, that one. You have one friend, he's the best.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, he told me a story when I. He lives in Oklahoma and he's a Democrat, but I think being in Oklahoma, he has to. His family is more conservative. He deals with people from all, you know, so he just has more openness, I think, to different views. But he told me a story when I saw him recently that right after I left my job, he knew that I was having a hard time. He knows me well enough. He was the first friend I met on the first day of college. And he would call me, like once a week, and he would say, jen, this will make me cry. He would say, jen, you don't have

[Sage Steele]

to call me back.

[Jennifer Sey]

I just want you to know I love you. So he told me recently, he called a bunch of my friends to say, you should check in on Jen. I think she's struggling. I didn't even talk to him. He just knew. Two of them said no. The closest ones, they said no. And when he told me that, it's like it just one that he did that was like. That made me.

[Sage Steele]

Tells you all about him.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. But I think until he told me that, I was pretending in my mind it would all be fine. And we just had a rough spot and do you know what I mean? I was pretending there were things that had happened. You know, I would leave messages and not get a call back, or I would send an email and say, oh, my kid has an art show in New York. You're in New York, you should go and not hear back. But then it's like. It was like a slap in the face. You Know, in my mind, it was like, oh, we get busy. And, you know, Covid, we all, like, got a little internalized. But then I realized it was all purposeful, you know, and that I had deluded myself, which felt humiliating, you know, for me to be that willing to delude myself. But it closed the door.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Which. But you have to be in that moment. And I learned that. And there's one person in particular who I worked with, a woman who I just loved and was younger than me. I'd kind of, you know, I'd just been through all of it before her with younger kids and was trying to help. And I had been, you know, punished, et cetera, for what I said about COVID at espn and, you know, had ticked off a lot of people for that. And then my opinion on, you know, being biracial and all the. All the fun things that I happened to have some experience with.

[Jennifer Sey]

But you're not supposed to just be black.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Yeah, I know. God forbid you are true to who you are. I mean, you're allowed to, you know, say you're a girl if you're a boy, but we can't actually talk about the fact that you're proud to be half black and half white. Proud of all of you. It's fine. This woman, you know, I had had an injury kind of on the job, and was going to come over and say hi with some of the other girls, and she told the other friends, listen, I'll go, but, like, I can't take a picture with her. It can't be on Instagram.

[Jennifer Sey]

Like, did the other people tell you this? How did you know?

[Sage Steele]

A year later, Told me a year later when I kept wondering, like, what is the. And finally, my one friend, who, again, is no longer also sadly said, yeah, she cares about you, but says she can't be seen with you.

[Jennifer Sey]

That hurts.

[Sage Steele]

The thing is, I.

[Jennifer Sey]

Like, what did it do to you?

[Sage Steele]

Oh, it's still. You know, it still hurts me because I welcomed her into my home and my children and, like. And helping her in any small way I could when she was younger at the company. Because I know that when I was younger at the company, there were no women. The women were evil. And I was like, I don't want her to feel the way I did. And of course I can help. And I'm a lot older and whatever. Yeah. And I was, like, hurt from a human perspective and just had to, like, had to accept it. And I understood. Like, I understood, too, because all of a sudden, I'm controversial and so, you know. But I thought. No, damn it. Like, either you're friends or you're not. It doesn't mean we have to agree, by the way. No, but you can still say, hey, Jen, I disagree with your views on Covid. Yeah, but I know who you are, and I love you. And making sure you're okay, even if you don't really want an answer. Fake it, right? So I think my two things. Number one, it is a beautiful thing when it makes your circle smaller and it weeds people out that you don't want to, but it forces you to realize who really is true to you.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's true. But I'm gonna play devil's advocate.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, no, I'm gonna agree with this devil's advocate take, too, I guess, because

[Jennifer Sey]

people say that, right? They say, well, they were never your friends anyway.

[Sage Steele]

They were. I don't disagree with that.

[Jennifer Sey]

I'm like, one in particular. I mean, since we were 20, there for births of children, serious postpartum. Like, she showed up at my door, I didn't even ask. Got me through it. Wedding for me, divorce, another wedding. They are deaths of parents. Like, all the things. So I'm not willing to say, like, people are. Like, they weren't your friends anyway. No, yeah, they were.

[Sage Steele]

I'm with you.

[Jennifer Sey]

But that's what's the most hurtful. It's like, you are my friend. You know what's in my heart, and we have this one disagreement, and now you can't be anymore. Fuck is wrong with you?

[Sage Steele]

Yes. No, trust me, it still breaks me. And I also do understand, when they are not there yet, maybe never will be, to have the strength and the confidence to be like, you know what? You guys don't have to like her. But I know who she is. I know that she's a good person. I know she cared about me when she didn't have to. And so I'm gonna be with her during her tough time.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Here's the key.

[Jennifer Sey]

I say this, it's still. I don't know. I mean, I did in your eyes. And there were women. I'm not even gonna tell the stories, but just, like, what you've talked about. I was this, like, generation, half, generation, whatever. Older women with kids. I wanted to create a work environment for them that wasn't like. It was for me, where I had a pump in a sample closet with a curtain while people were trying to come in and grab jeans for the next photo shoot, you know? And I did. And they were like, here's the key, though.

[Sage Steele]

This is what I say to my kids, in particular my daughters. So there's hurt that's come from it. That is what it is. But we cannot allow that to change how we would act as a friend to them. Like, okay, we're best friends now, and I'm not gonna be like, well, what if someday? So I'm gonna hold. I'm gonna hold back and not give her as much.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, I agree with you.

[Sage Steele]

Like, we don't want to tell our kids to not go all in on somebody because of what may or may not happen. And so I have no regrets for any of it with all the people that are no longer my friends.

[Jennifer Sey]

I don't disagree with the words you've said. I do know and I observe it in myself and I'm working on it. And it's not just everything that happened. I live in a new city that I moved to in my early 50s. I really, really like hanging out with my husband. I have two kids that are still in the home. So I was a regular age mom the first time. Second time, I was an old mom, regular age. And I have a startup and I am closed off to new people in a way.

[Sage Steele]

Well, you have to protect yourself too.

[Jennifer Sey]

So my husband was out of town with both of our kids for the weekend, and he was like, I know you. You're gonna like the first day home alone, and then you're gonna be lonely and you're gonna start to get weird, so call someone. I was like, I don't really have anyone. Like, I haven't done that. You know what I mean? And then I got to the second day, I was like, I actually like this. Like, I spent three days 100% alone.

[Sage Steele]

Did you? Oh, you did the darkness retreat like Aaron Rodgers. You just like, why wasn't it buried yourself?

[Jennifer Sey]

I liked it.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Well, because you've never experienced that, especially as a leader, the president of a massive company, like, you are constantly surrounded, and then you have four kids, like, oh, no. It's nonstop.

[Jennifer Sey]

So I sort of like it. But I do know I am also not as open with new people as I once was.

[Sage Steele]

Listen, I think it's smart and you're human to step back a tiny bit and protect yourself a little bit. Because as badass as you are and tough as you are, like, that's the part we can't forget about. It still hurts.

[Jennifer Sey]

It does.

[Sage Steele]

You can be tough and fight for the right thing for yourself and for others and still be human and get hurt. It's what.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well said. Yeah. Like, I don't regret it anything.

[Sage Steele]

No.

[Jennifer Sey]

I would do it all again.

[Sage Steele]

And you don't regret helping those women? So it wasn't as much of a boys club for them coming up.

[Jennifer Sey]

Exactly. I don't regret helping those women. I don't regret standing up and pushing back during COVID It doesn't mean I don't sometimes feel sad. That's okay. I can still feel sad sometimes. I can still miss a friend. I can still be sad for the life that I had, sort of thought I was going to have, that I don't have. Even if this one's better. It's like when you get divorced, it was the right thing for me, but you can still mourn the life that you had planned 100%.

[Sage Steele]

Even if you know it's the right thing. It doesn't mean that, like, you don't wonder or you're just. Especially when you know, with divorce, like you did. Like that you have children that that affects. And even if they know it's the right thing, there is a mourning process. And if you don't do that, like, there's something wrong with you. Like you've lost your humanity a little bit.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, I think I agree with that. And it doesn't mean that even if you're. I mean, I. When I got divorced, I. You and I have talked about this. Like, I wanted to meet someone. I knew that I would meet someone. I knew I didn't have the marriage that I was supposed to have. I did meet someone. I have. Doesn't mean that when you look back, certain moments can't just pierce your heart still a little bit, you know? Yeah. And that's okay. That's fine. But anyway, back to xxy. I realized this is what I'll say, that I was basically ousted from all of corporate America, which is probably something you can kind of understand. And I started interviewing for jobs in 2023ish early because I was like, okay. I dusted myself off. I cried for a few months. I need to get back at it. And most of the recruiters that I knew that loved me wouldn't take my calls. Every once in a while, someone would. And I did get this one interview, like, all the way. It was for a CEO of a big company. It went really well for, like 10 interviews.

[Sage Steele]

10.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, it was for a CEO. They make you. Oh, sage. You have to do like an IQ test, a psych test. You have to do like a million things. So. But it went well. Ten interviews, all about my skills. And then I get the last one which was the HR person. I hate hr. And she opened the interview with will you apologize for what you've done? The new gum health hero is here from Parodontax, the experts in gum care. Parodontax gums strengthen and protect. Strengthens the gum seal by killing plaque bacteria along the gum line for a stronger and tighter seal between the gums and teeth. Clinically proven to reduce bleeding. And now with hyaluronic acid for foaming action. Brush and rinse twice daily to protect against plaque. Keep gums tight and enjoy long lasting gum health. Strong gums healthy smile.

[Sage Steele]

Will you apologize for what you've done? In order for us to hire you, you need to apologize.

[Jennifer Sey]

Bend a knee. For saying schools should open during COVID in 2000 and this is 2023.

[Sage Steele]

What did you say?

[Jennifer Sey]

No, I was right about everything. I didn't get the job. I went downstairs and I said to my husband, okay, I'm never getting a job. I violated the code of reading from the script. Like, it doesn't matter if I was right. None of that matters. I didn't do the thing I was supposed to do, which is like, scream, stay home, Stay safe, forever. I didn't do that. And so I'm out. I'm like, too risky. I'm unreliable. I speak in my own voice. I don't read the script given to me. And so he was like, okay, we'll figure it out. I was crying. He was not. And then I had this idea for this brand that was like this perfect sort of kismet of athletic background, fashion, brand building, and my willingness to have a big mouth and say a thing you're not supposed to. And I felt like the movement needed it. It's like most of the people in this movement, God love them, so many amazing people have come at it like the elder statesmans from, you know, politics, legislation. And my feeling is we need to change the culture.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

Which is what Riley's been so great at, because she just is the force.

[Sage Steele]

I mean, my oldest is 23, Riley's 25. It's crazy. I look at her and admire her.

[Jennifer Sey]

The poise.

[Sage Steele]

I look up to her. Yeah, the poise, the courage. Something she never wanted to get involved in. You know, I guess there's still a part of me more so than Covid, where with this issue, women and men are different. Like, issue.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's the most basic thing on the

[Sage Steele]

planet where I still am in awe that we are where we are. And the fact that this is even necessary to remind people of the Differences, the beautiful differences between men and women.

[Jennifer Sey]

The fact that someone like a smart, educated person could say, yeah, if a man says he's a woman, he is.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's the dumbest thing on earth. This is the dumbest time.

[Sage Steele]

You're right.

[Jennifer Sey]

Even more than Covid. With COVID you're like, okay, it's a microscopic virus. They're terrifying everybody and they're believing it. But, like, we know that men and women are different.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. And we celebrate those differences, and it's okay. So you went from this roller coaster ride of number two in the company, one of the biggest brands ever with apparel. Right. Step away, resign. Controversy. You're as low as it gets coming off of divorce and all that as well.

[Jennifer Sey]

And.

[Sage Steele]

And in tears. What do I do? Fear breadwinner to. Okay, what the heck is going on with this now with men versus women? Like, what? That Covid thing didn't make sense. But how is this even a thing? Just saying. All right, I'll just. I have expertise in both areas as an elite international level gymnast for many years. And in the brand world, let's combine not just the knowledge, but the toughness that it's going to take to start something from scratch. At age. What,

[Jennifer Sey]

old?

[Sage Steele]

Oh, shut up.

[Jennifer Sey]

53.

[Sage Steele]

With a five in front of it. Yeah, 53. Scary.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. I think I learned this in gymnastics because gymnastics is so dangerous, as we discussed, and you learn to push fear out or else you would never do any of those things. It's stupid. Do a triple twist. Like, who would do that? It's crazy. And it was one of my problems as a young gymnast is I would always think through all the things that could go wrong. Like, most girls just went for it. And I was like, but if the ankle's not right. And I learned to block all that. And so I usually just keep going forward, one foot in front of the other, and try not to think about the bad things that could happen.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. That's how you do have to be fearless in some way to be a successful executive. For sure, what you were and are again, but just in general, you got to take chances. And I wonder if you feel the same way that, like, after my first cancellation, which was 2021, I guess I had a couple more that were mini cancellations before. Before we called it that.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And then.

[Jennifer Sey]

That's true. You did. Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And then I realized I'm like, gosh, after the big one, when I was at ESPN and suspended, but I still woke up the next day.

[Jennifer Sey]

Right.

[Sage Steele]

Like, I'm live and I still have a couple of friends, and I still have my babies. Yeah. And I still have a roof over my head and the ability to make money. At the time, I was still at espn.

[Jennifer Sey]

You're like, wait, what am I doing? I can do that.

[Sage Steele]

I can do hard things. And every time it happens and you push through, you realize, yeah, you can do it. That you. Absolutely. And it might look different and it might be the way. Not the way you plan, but you can do it. So I think that that's what the message that I hope people receive from you, one of many messages, is that, yes, you can make a decision to stand up for what you believe in, crash and burn in the eyes of the public, and then choose to come back without ever compromising those morals and values and be afraid at the same time. Like, I live in fear every day. Every day.

[Jennifer Sey]

You can do all things.

[Sage Steele]

All the things.

[Jennifer Sey]

You're right. You can do all those things. You can. You can do all those things. And you can choose to see it as totally liberating. I mean, some days I'll sit, you know, I'll have. There'll be something that happens and I want to tweet about it. And I'll like, do we still call it tweeting? I still. I'll like, can I say that? And then I'm like, I know I can say whatever I want.

[Sage Steele]

I can say whatever I want.

[Jennifer Sey]

I can say whatever I want.

[Sage Steele]

What has it been like to have a new kind of brand recognition walk around that is literally all yours?

[Jennifer Sey]

It's cool. I mean, it's hard. You know, I went from a team of a thousand to there's like seven of us. I write the copy, you know, like, literally I'm dragging suitcases around to pop ups. I don't mind any of that. I like the hard work. I like. I always wanted to be in it, but it's a startup, you know, it's scary. Every single day. Every single day. Like, there's days I was gonna check my phone, you know, the Shopify cash registers on my phone, you know, not good.

[Sage Steele]

Really? It's like checking your stocks every day.

[Jennifer Sey]

You know, there's days I'm like, is this thing working? And then there's days, like, oh, my God. You know, it's so. It's a lot. And we look. I think you made me see this when I saw you in D.C. like, we just kind of ascended to a new level, I think, like being on the steps of the Supreme Court and speaking there and looking into the crowd and Seeing half the people wear this was really an exciting, cool moment. But like anyone who thinks this is anywhere near over sage, we just got rejected. These are the platforms that won't let us advertise. New York Times, Wall Street Journal, fox sports.

[Sage Steele]

What?

[Jennifer Sey]

FS1. That's fox sports one. Fox. Fine, CBS. Without changing the message to the point where it's not the message anymore. NBC was okay. We've been running an ad on NBC. It's like, it's crazy. Like, people won't take our money. We're like, we want to advertise. And they're like, no.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. What do they say? What's their email back to you? I'm sure they don't have the. You know what to make it a phone call.

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, the first we were banned from TikTok, like the day we started advertising last June. Two Junes ago, 24. And they've never let us back on. They said our ad was hate speech. We tried to buy an ad on that. Don't make fun of me. What's her name? Alex Cooper.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, yeah. Call her daddy. Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

I mean, it's the biggest show that women, you know. So if you're just going off of demographics, you're like, well, let's start. They. They said yes, we plan the schedule and then we got the call. Nope, we're not. We're not gonna work with you.

[Sage Steele]

So you'd rather talk about, like, demonstrate how to give blowjobs.

[Jennifer Sey]

That's right.

[Sage Steele]

Like, that's literally. That's okay.

[Jennifer Sey]

But mine is offensive.

[Sage Steele]

But then yours is offensive.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. So that. And it's fine. Like, that's not the show for us. But literally.

[Sage Steele]

No, but she's also allegedly empowering women.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. So she won't take my money. I mean, the Wall Street Journal is sort of shocking.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. They've been more fair in many ways with many things.

[Jennifer Sey]

They would run the ad. I probably shouldn't be saying any of this. It's fine. I paint this picture just to say it's hard. Like, startups are hard anyway. And we can't even advertise in the places that we would like to. Quite a few platforms just said, we say no men. In women's sports, we don't say trans women men, because that's what they are. They're men. So many will say, well, if you change the message and you say no trans women, and we say no, I mean, Imani Khalif is not a trans woman. He's just a man. So some want you to change the message and Some say no outright New York Times was. No outright Wall Street Journal was. Change the message a little, what's your line? I won't change the message. If anything is clear, I will cut off my nose despite my face. If anything that you now know about me, it's that I will cut off my nose despite my face. No, I think it's really important not to bend a knee on this.

[Sage Steele]

That's my point. Because, well, then you're actually being hypocritical of your own words and messaging over all these years. It's like, okay, fine, I'll say trans women. No.

[Jennifer Sey]

Which is why we're here, because we all said we would do that. Not all of us, but we used the pronouns. I'm using we collectively. We used the pronouns. We used the all of it. And you know what? Once you say Will Thomas is a woman, how do you say he? He can't compete in women's swimming. You, like, did it to yourself. We did it to ourselves. The terrible ideas were smuggled in through the language. So that's why I'm real hardline on the language. I think we have to be. We have to take the culture back with the force that was taken from us. We can be diplomatic, we can be calm, we don't have to act like psychos. But I will not call a man any kind of woman.

[Sage Steele]

What have you learned about yourself during this process? From the moment you decided to step away? To resign officially, I guess resign from Levi's to today.

[Jennifer Sey]

I would say despite all the travails and challenges and hard moments, I have a lot more. This sounds so trite. Confidence in myself, in my intellect. That was always a real point of insecurity for me. And I can look at a thing and trust that I see it as it is, even when the world's gone mad. It took me until my 50s to get there. I always had a terrible imposter syndrome. I think I was insecure about my, like I said, my intellect because I think, because I wasn't a very committed student, you know, I was an athlete. Maybe I thought of myself as a little bit of a dumb jock,

[Sage Steele]

but I ended up going to Stanford.

[Jennifer Sey]

I did.

[Sage Steele]

There's no dummies getting into Stanford. As much as I don't love some of the things they stand for.

[Jennifer Sey]

Stanford. I don't know why. I think it's not uncommon for high achieving women to have imposter syndrome. I mean, I thought any day at Stanford somebody was going to pop around the corner and say, you have to leave now we made a mistake and at my job, and I don't feel like that anymore. Now I'm like, no, I'm seeing this the right way. Even if the whole world is like, no. Men who say they're women are women. Like, I can stand it and go, you're wrong. The three of us over here are right. And you're all going to come around to see it. I was joking that I have a little bit of a Cassandra complex, though.

[Sage Steele]

What's that?

[Jennifer Sey]

You know, Cassandra, the Greek mythology, you know, and she stood on the wall and warned everybody about the terrible things that were going to happen. And they called her crazy. And then they happened, which makes me seem more important than I am. That's not what I mean. But it's like the abuse in gymnastics. Everybody said I was lying. Covid, they're like, you're a murderer and a fascist and a racist, and now you know the same things. But I don't know. I'm just more confident now. Like, I don't let the crazy like most people. I'll leave you with this. During COVID I was like, why are. Why is everybody so awful right now? Everybody is so compliant. They're saying the dumb things, the lines that are fed to them, and they think they're the good people. And they're all behaving like authoritarians, like they're in Stasi Germany, you know, reporting on whatever. And then I realized, and this made me feel better. That's just people.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

Doesn't matter when or where or why the vast majority of people will do that. And it made me feel better.

[Sage Steele]

What I have found, and I wonder if you feel the same. First of all, I know you agree with this part. Like, the circle of women that I have found and gotten to meet and become friends with is beautiful. And they all inspire me. And when you realize once you stand up about any of these things that you've stood up for, when you do it, as much as it's like a bomb being dropped, and then you're just evil, you do realize, actually, what they don't want you to realize, which is that you're not alone, and that there's so many other common sense women and men who are like, yes, for whatever reason, they don't have the ability, courage, willingness, whatever it is, to say exactly what you are saying. And so, man, it's awesome when you realize the good. Like, there's a lot of bad, the good that can come from this is you realize you're not alone, but then what you are doing right now in every aspect is empowering women and men to say, okay, I'm not gonna be afraid to speak the truth anymore. I'm not gonna be afraid to take a chance in my early 50s to start from scratch and as a startup and build a business. Yeah, Like, I think that's something that isn't talked about enough. Is the good that comes from us pushing through those fears. And look at this whole world that you've created that has come to you, like, almost magnetic.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, you're right. And I knew, like, you know, that logo, this logo, it's like, it makes it okay to say, well, cool. I want to make it cool to say what should be totally normal thing to say. And Jamie Reed, who's the whistleblower at that St. Louis gender clinic. I don't know if you know who she is. She's awesome. She gave up everything similar. You know, she worked in a gender clinic, and then she blew the whistle and then they shut it down. And now she goes around the country testifying about what's being done to kids. But she said to me once, she was really nervous. She was testifying somewhere in some state, and she looked out and she saw somebody wearing our logo. And she said, and then I knew my people were there. You help us find our people. I know. That makes me really happy.

[Sage Steele]

Such a big deal, such a big impact. That would never have happened had you just fallen in line.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, you're right.

[Sage Steele]

And done the hard thing. You're right at Levi's. And also, I believe difficult, is your decision to basically face off against Nike, the biggest brand in sports, male or female. Right. The worst and the worst. Why is Nike the worst?

[Jennifer Sey]

I think they're the epitome of what I call woke capitalism. For years, at least since 2011, they have pretended to stand up for women and female athletes. And they treat women with astonishing disregard. Women in the company, their own athletes like Allyson Felix, who they wouldn't pay when she was pregnant. A runner in their running program, which they had to shut down. Mary Kane was the best runner in the world. They abused her to the point of suicidality. Their own female executives. It's a shit show, that company. And they make all this fanfare and advertising about standing up for women. It's grotesque. That's woke capitalism. You sort of advertise your wokeness, but inside, none of those values are actually acted upon. And I think that's the big difference about. I want to be the same on the outside as we are on the inside. Vice versa. We are for free speech. We don't all agree in the company. There's people that say things publicly sometimes that I'm like, oh, I don't love that.

[Sage Steele]

But that's their right. And they believe in this, though.

[Jennifer Sey]

We all believe in this.

[Sage Steele]

Right? And that's the most basic thing. And you are practicing what you preach by having people with different ideas on your team. That actually, that diversity of thought is what, to me, is the. It should be the basis of everything. And it's so crucial. But for you to say, hell, no, I'm gonna expose them with your ad. Like that first big ad against Nike. How many do you know? How many views?

[Jennifer Sey]

Dear Nike. That's what it was. It's such a simple ad, right? It's girls talking to camera. And it's a riff on their ad from 2011, if you let me play. I mean, gosh, we had about 4 million in the first week. It's gotta be. It's been a year and a half. It's gotta be 10, 15 million with 0 pitch paid media behind it, which is a good.

[Sage Steele]

It's a big deal.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's a good ROI. We spent like, $3,000 to make it.

[Sage Steele]

Are you serious? That's awesome.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

This is where former Levi's executive Jennifer say comes out. And it's like, oh, yeah, here's. Here's how you can do this. Boom, boom, boom. Did you hear from anyone at Nike or anyone?

[Jennifer Sey]

No, of course not.

[Sage Steele]

I mean, anyone who knows the inside there?

[Jennifer Sey]

Well, here's what I heard. So first of all, if I'm Nike, we got so much play on that ad. And then we did other things that we've been poking that bear now for a year and a half. So I know they know. And I also know that if I were on the insulate, I'd be like, we have to pretend we don't know because they're so small.

[Sage Steele]

We can't. We don't want to acknowledge them.

[Jennifer Sey]

We can't. Like, that's just. Yeah, we can't pretend that that's bothering us. Plus, their business is a mess right now, so they have probably bigger fish to fry, but they can't love it. But Bill Ackman, you know that guy?

[Sage Steele]

Journalist?

[Jennifer Sey]

No, no. He's like a big private equity guy. Oh, that guy. Yeah, he discovered that ad. I think you might have been the one that sent it to me. When he tweeted it, like, many months after we'd first done it, and he was like, wow, this is great. I'm Gonna raise this with Nike. I'm meeting with them tomorrow. And I was like, whoa. And then after his meeting with the CEO, which I think was the last CEO, not the current. I can't remember. This was a while ago. He posted that they knew about it and they're gonna have a response soon. And then he took that down.

[Sage Steele]

Mm.

[Jennifer Sey]

He probably shouldn't have. It was a private conversation. In fairness, I'm sure they weren't happy. And then their super bowl ad last year came out, which was entirely focused on women and terrible, I thought. Yeah. So I think that was their response, is to say, we do support women. So I know they know.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, you've made an impact.

[Jennifer Sey]

I hope so.

[Sage Steele]

You have. You have. By speaking the facts. This isn't just clever marketing.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, it's true. It's truthful. There has to be an idea at the center of marketing and a brand that is true for it to resonate, which is why we get so much virality. I mean, even last weekend, super bowl weekend, our ad from last year went totally viral all over again, which was shocking to me. And we were the only ad trending on X on the day of the super bowl. When everybody's talking about. Supposed to be talking about ads, but they're all so superficial and lame and bland and, you know, we put truth and heart into it.

[Sage Steele]

I just want to emphasize the good that can come from doing what you've done and for standing up and, you know, being afraid, like, being all the things. Because it all helps, right? While at home raising four kids. I know you've got two olders and the two youngers now and bouncing all over the country to do this. There's so much good from people that you'll never meet. Jen, like, yeah, I always hear changing so much. What would you tell real quick? So if you have a woman our age, in their early mid-50s, who's like, I really want to try this, or I really just want to speak up. I want to speak the truth. I want to give an opinion. And not with hate. Like, I just want to, but they're afraid.

[Jennifer Sey]

What would you say the truth matters more than whatever name you might be called. You have to do it. And if you want to start something, do it. Do the work. It's a lot of work. You can't just want it. You can't just have an idea, become an expert in every aspect of that business and lean in and do the hard work and know that you still might not succeed, but that it's worth it. What kind of life is it if you don't even try? Who says you have to stop trying at 53 or 54 or 55? I got a lot of life left.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, we're just beginning.

[Jennifer Sey]

We're just getting started.

[Sage Steele]

They don't know what they started.

[Jennifer Sey]

They have no idea. Because we don't care anymore what they think of us.

[Sage Steele]

And that's the scary part, because at these corporations and then on chat rooms, on Facebook or wherever it is, they believe that they're going to instill enough fear in you to make you quiet. And once they realize that, they can't silence you. So what do you want people to like your kids? You've got a 9 and 11 year old.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Look, when this is all said and done, they receive a lot of crap because of us. Right? They do. But what do you hope that they recall someday telling their kids about this journey for you?

[Jennifer Sey]

I would hope. And there's sort of a divide. You know, I think for my older kids, they're older, more conscious of the fact that their mom was like the only person in San Francisco saying lockdowns are bad. I would hope that they get to a place that is. She always says what she thinks. That's it. My mom says what she thinks, and I should, too. You have to model that behavior of bravery for your kids to take it on. My younger kids are a lot like my husband. And like my daughter, she's only nine. She. We always say her name's Ruth. Ruthie don't care. Like, Ruth does not care what anyone thinks of her. And it's so annoying to parent. But I'm trying to foster it, celebrate it, too.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. So then she doesn't take half a century.

[Jennifer Sey]

Exactly.

[Sage Steele]

To finally go be herself.

[Jennifer Sey]

Exactly. Like, it's this, like, amazing gift she has, and it makes a lot. I sometimes wish she cared more. Like if I told her to do something, just care about me. She bounced off at school a little more than she should, but, like, she really doesn't care what people think of her at nine.

[Sage Steele]

Awesome.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's an amazing.

[Sage Steele]

But that's not happening without her witnessing it. Like, she can't formulate those words or thoughts right now.

[Jennifer Sey]

I agree.

[Sage Steele]

But that's not happening without you.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, I agree. And I wasn't that 20 years ago when I was raising my other children, you know? So I just hope that. I mean, look, you want your kids to be proud of you, don't you think?

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

I mean, I want to be proud of them, but you also want them to be proud of You.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. Well, because you make decisions based on their well being. You do or don't take a job because of how it might affect them. Like, whatever it is, everything is, you know, for the most part. Yeah. And I've heard that, like, my kids are now to the age 19, 21, 23, where I'm not gonna say all three of them are, to that point of being proud. There's always.

[Jennifer Sey]

There's always.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

No flyer.

[Sage Steele]

But it's timing.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

And I believe all of our kids will get there. I agree. At some point. And if they don't, then that's okay, because that's not like we're not doing it to please them, per se.

[Jennifer Sey]

No, no, no.

[Sage Steele]

But you do hope that they see at least your why and then take whatever that is from it and apply it to their own life. Yes.

[Jennifer Sey]

And I hope that they also can see that in all of my passion for whatever it was I pursued, whether it was my job at Levi's and how much I cared about the people that worked for me or the movie I made or the books that I wrote or the company I started, that I was always still there for them. And I always. I still put them first. So I hope they know that. I mean, the little ones are too young.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, they will.

[Jennifer Sey]

You are.

[Sage Steele]

Listen, you're forever on Wikipedia now.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. My daughter.

[Sage Steele]

You've made it.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah. My daughter Googles me sometimes.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, gosh.

[Jennifer Sey]

Funny. At nine.

[Sage Steele]

I don't know.

[Jennifer Sey]

What do you wish?

[Sage Steele]

Hmm? Yeah, I think it. I can't. I can't talk about this without. Okay. I need my wine.

[Jennifer Sey]

Okay, fair enough.

[Sage Steele]

That'll be in the new studio in a minute.

[Jennifer Sey]

That's totally fair.

[Sage Steele]

I just want them to not. Yeah, it's probably the same thing. To know that their mom made a decision later in life to say no more.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

No more. Because I was a pleaser. I hope they. They are not. And some of them are. I don't want them to be a pleaser.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, me too.

[Sage Steele]

I want them to be kind. Of course. But if they don't want to do something or say something or feel something, you don't have to do that. Do not compromise your values or your morals, and do not live in fear.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

So, like, that is. The goal is to take. I said this to one of them one time about a number of things, you know, professional, personal. It sounds dramatic, and I don't mean for it to, but please don't waste my pain. Don't waste it. Take what I have learned, been through, done to Myself, whatever it is, and be better. That's it. That's what every parent should want for their kids, is to be better, to learn lessons quicker, not be as thick headed.

[Jennifer Sey]

Maybe, but I agree with all that. But I also know they have to make their.

[Sage Steele]

They do, exactly. But I think every parent, like my mom and dad, you know, they, for instance, said, gosh, I wish we had taken a few more risks financially, you know, just to set us up. Maybe we. Who could have known we could have hit the job. So I'm like, yeah, let's try it. Okay. If it doesn't work, I can work a little harder, make a little more money. Whatever it is, you try to make them a little bit better. And I do, I do know that. I do know that. They have seen it because they've had to. Even when it's ugly. Yeah, that's gonna prepare them. And you know what? Because of that, they're gonna be better parents than I was too. And like, isn't that the goal?

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, it is the goal. And I think just demonstrating like, you can get up again.

[Sage Steele]

Hell yeah, you can get up. Just get up and. And you're gonna end up getting up quicker and standing taller once you're on your feet. Yeah, Like, I don't recognize that person from five years ago with me. I don't. And I shudder at the thought of having stayed quiet, which is what I was told to do. Would have been smarter financially smarter for who knows? Maybe I'd still be working in network tv. But I'm like, my life would. Every aspect of my life would be different. And I'm like, even if I hadn't been able to meet people like you, it still would have meant that I wasn't being true.

[Jennifer Sey]

What I find hilarious that we're the ones that are called grifters.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, yeah. Constantly.

[Jennifer Sey]

The grift is the person that keeps their mouth shut so they can keep the $25 million. That's the grift. Every corporate leader that reads from the script does exactly as they're told. So they can just take the money. That's the grift.

[Sage Steele]

You're so right.

[Jennifer Sey]

How am I the grifter?

[Sage Steele]

You are so right.

[Jennifer Sey]

I make like. I mean, not just about money. I mean, maybe like 1/20 of what I made. And it makes me shudder to think about having. Shut up. To get that 20x. Like, that makes me want to throw. Throw up. I never really considered it. I never considered it. But I also realize most people aren't like that. I do have a Word of advice for people who are still scared, because I'm sure you feel this way when I get messages from people that I don't even know that say, thank you for what you do. You inspire me. I talked at the school board meeting, or I'm getting ready to, or whatever. I think if you're not ready yet to support the people that do, you have no idea how much that's great advice. How much it means. It means so much to me because we get so much hate also that we need it offset. I mean, every time I get one, I cry.

[Sage Steele]

I know, I know.

[Jennifer Sey]

Because it's just like, wow, this lady in Maryland who I'll never meet.

[Sage Steele]

Never, never. I think that's the coolest thing. And it isn't an ego thing. It's a. No, it's a validation to keep doing it.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sage Steele]

And to keep speaking. And that's where I have been blown

[Jennifer Sey]

away by the support.

[Sage Steele]

By the support. There's so much more positive than negative. There's so many more people who are just on the side of common sense. It doesn't mean we agree on politics, but this basic thing and the number of people who have stopped me in airports and restaurants a million times more than when I was at the top of the ladder at espn, at the Worldwide Leader, so much more men, more men than women who have come up and said, listen, I can't say anything because of my job. And I go, well, you can, right? But that's a choice. You can. And I also understand the fear. Lived in it for a long time, but they get choked up. Grown ass men sometimes, like, thank you for what you did because I'm a father of a little girl and blah, blah, blah. And so isn't that sweet? It makes me go, that's the why. That is the why.

[Jennifer Sey]

But does anyone ever come up to you and yell at you?

[Sage Steele]

Never once have they yelled at me.

[Jennifer Sey]

Really? Because every time I'm like, oh, no, she's leaning in, it's a crapshoot. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen.

[Sage Steele]

Well, I met the other day at a store here in Nashville, a woman. And I was in an area where I was like, oh. And she came up to me and listen, you shouldn't stereotype based on looks. But it was definitely a. Oh, this might be it.

[Jennifer Sey]

Totally.

[Sage Steele]

Nope. She looked at me, got choked up, and she's like, my daughter introduced me to you on social media and she got choked up. And I'm like, every time, to me it's like, A God thing, though, where God is reminding you by having people. Because that takes courage for them to come up to us at times, too.

[Jennifer Sey]

I agree. I've never approached a stranger to say. I mean, I don't think I've ever done that.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, I've done it a couple times because I know just through the TV world for all those years, what that can feel like when you are only hearing the. And that's the final thing. Like, it is definitely a silent majority and a vocal minority of ugliness, for sure. It literally is. The sane ones just don't log on and search your name and track you down via some random email or dm. They have a life. They have things to do.

[Jennifer Sey]

Normal people don't do that.

[Sage Steele]

Normal people don't do that.

[Jennifer Sey]

Crazy people in the basement do that.

[Sage Steele]

Yes. And let them. Let them. Yeah. I am so grateful for your courage from that first time I saw you and your story when you stepped away from Levi's and your leadership since then and sending me all these amazing clothes and for my daughters too, and most of all, for your friendship. It's been. This is a. This is part of the blessing of, like, being true.

[Jennifer Sey]

I agree.

[Sage Steele]

So all.

[Jennifer Sey]

There's a lot of amazing. I. I will say, stepping into the, you know, truth, like, there's amazing regular people everywhere and all the people that are the big. They're like, you're so disappointed in some of our leaders, many of our leaders, whether it's corporate or whether it's politics or whatever. And yet I'm astonished by the bravery and goodness in everyday people. So that's a blessing to know and see that, don't you think?

[Sage Steele]

Absolutely. And you deserve it. So keep crushing and everybody. Hello, xxxy.

[Jennifer Sey]

Yes. It's very cool.

[Sage Steele]

It gives you.

[Jennifer Sey]

If you're scared sometimes. Some days I have stories, which I'll tell you later, about it not going that well when people come up to me. But mostly people come up and they say, say, I love. I love that. I love what you're doing. Some days I don't feel like having an interaction, you know, and so. But I wear this every day, so I put it on anyway. And it's like the push you need.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sey]

Do you know what I mean? It's like the push. It's like, okay, when someone comes up to me, I'll have to explain why this is important. Yeah.

[Sage Steele]

It's a statement.

[Jennifer Sey]

It's just a little like. It's the nudge we need.

[Sage Steele]

It is. And a reminder while you're grocery shopping, while you're picking up your kids like normal. We're normal.

[Jennifer Sey]

We're normal.

[Sage Steele]

We're not haters and racists.

[Jennifer Sey]

Someone might be standing in line and say, I agree with you. Can I say that out loud? She might say, which people say to me all the time. And I say, you can. And then you changed one. You brought one person out of the shadow. So wear the. As I said in my speech at Supreme Court, wear the damn hat.

[Sage Steele]

Love you, girlfriend.

[Jennifer Sey]

Love you.

[Sage Steele]

Thank you.

[Jennifer Sey]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. And you're pretty new studio.