← The Sage Steele Show
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- [00:00]
A
So I first heard of Linda McMahon probably when everybody else my age did like 25, 30 years ago, when the WWE was at its peak, a business that she helped create from the ground up and really was front and center, as you see here. In many ways, when you think about all she's accomplished from those WWE days to running for political office in Connecticut two times and now serving in both Trump administrations, her strength is obvious and I think she's absolutely incredible. President Trump told her that, that he wanted her to be the last Secretary of Education. So then, as she told me today, eventually she's gonna fire herself as she leads the way and removing government permanently from education and returning it to its rightful place to the states. Secretary of education Linda McMahon, my guest right now on the Sage Steele Show. It's the Sage Steel Show. I obviously knew of you long before because as a sports fan and wrestling, et cetera, but what I didn't realize until I got to Connecticut and I guess was it 2009. Would you say that's when your political career kind of shifted?
- [01:09]
B
2009? Yes, because that's when I left WWE.
- [01:12]
A
Yes.
- [01:13]
B
And ran for the US Senate in Connecticut. And I ran twice. I ran for the 9:10 and then again for the 11:12 races because both of the sitting senators at that time decided not to seek re election. The first one was Kristad and the second one was Joe Lieberman. And so I ran for their seats heavily, heavily Democrat state. But you know, it was good and I'm really happy for having had the experience because you really do understand then a lot about the political environment. So it was something, it was really good for me. I learned a lot about myself during that timeframe and I enjoyed retail politics because that's really getting to know the people in the state.
- [02:04]
A
Retail politics.
- [02:05]
B
Retail politics means you're shaking hands, you're out there, you're talking. That's what they call it, you're shaking hands, you're meeting people one on one, you're doing all the lunches and all of the interaction with the voters as opposed to just being on camera or doing something. And so you're really in the field. And so retail is handshaking. It's that one on one visiting. And it's. I enjoyed that a lot. And it's interesting because Jody Rell, who was former governor of Connecticut, and I were good friends. And so I asked her, I said, you know, I'm thinking of running, what do you think? And she said, you're going to love the people of Connecticut. And So. And I never forgot that because she was really a people's governor. Mm.
- [02:52]
A
I admit to you, first of all, I voted for you always.
- [02:56]
B
Well, thank you for.
- [02:57]
A
Well, of course it's a no brainer. As a strong woman and obviously where you stood politically in that state, I was like, my goodness, that takes courage.
- [03:08]
B
Well, it does, it does. And clearly, you know, I had. I think I lost by 12 points both races. So that just shows you, even though we changed the campaign style a little bit, we had. The messaging was a little bit different, know, in both campaigns, but lost really by about the same amount both times. So it's just kind of. That's the state of the state.
- [03:53]
A
Vivimos parofres paquetes de vuelo. Yo tel pormenos expedia. Vivimos para viejar.
- [04:01]
B
The good news is that during the time that I ran, I really elevated the Republican Party in the state and we really closed the gap in local representation. Came very close to taking over the majority in the Senate, which was the state Senate, which was, you know, pretty incredible. So for those periods of time, we really got more Republican voices and helped change some of the legislation. So that was all a really good thing and just kind of raised the whole level of, I think, the party in the state. So that was all good.
- [04:39]
A
I remember increasingly gaining hope that someone like you, that a Republican could be elected in the state of Connecticut. I don't know that I ever fully believed it, you know, just. Just because of the history of the state. And the numbers have, have really. They back that up. But I remember going with my kids to the polls and they had heard enough of our conversations around the house and said, mom, really, like, isn't this kind of a waste of time in this. In this state? And it's a fair question in certain states. I know a lot of Republicans in California who feel the exact same way.
- [05:15]
B
You gotta keep at.
- [05:16]
A
Have to. And he saw that gap close a little bit more and a little bit more.
- [05:21]
B
And in Connecticut, even though for the federal offices, they don't elect many Republicans throughout the state, a lot of the state would call a lot of the town selectmen, which is like the mayor, and a lot of those, a lot of those offices are held by Republicans. They will vote for Republicans to run their towns, to run school districts, et cetera. But when it comes to the federal voting, they just vote very heavily Democratic and they're off cycle voting. So you're not voting for the president the same year, you're voting for the local officials. So that really is really is a very local concentration of voting and really shows where the preference is and what they expect, you know, out of their state and local officials. So I think that's pretty, pretty cool.
- [06:08]
A
And that's the thing. There's so many lessons to come from things like that. You said you learned a lot about yourself in particular. Both of them, I assume. Right. But that first one, that was your first foray in. What did you learn?
- [06:20]
B
I learned that I was really good at retail politics because I like people. I like listening to them, I like hearing what they had to say. I think that I paid close attention to what they were telling me. I tried to incorporate that in the campaign and would have had, had I been elected in the representation of the people of Connecticut. So I think that I enjoyed being with the people of Connecticut. And Governor Roehl was right, I did fall in love with the people of Connecticut.
- [06:53]
A
I think sometimes they don't get a fair shake because people think of Connecticut and they think of the Gold coast and they think of Greenwich and Westport and all those fancy places. And I do believe that there is a true conservative value that a lot of them have, family wise, et cetera. So we're going to talk about bigger things in Connecticut. But just to wrap this up, why should people in Connecticut who believe like us have hope that at some point things can change there?
- [07:25]
B
Well, I think they continue to show that by how they're voting locally. And I don't have the numbers today, but I do think they continue to show that. And when I'm asked, do you think we'll ever elect federal office? Well, we have. We have. Before there were a couple of Chris Shays who was down. He was actually my representative in Congress and he was a Republican. And so they have, you know, elected a couple of federal offices, you know, over time. But Rosa DeLauro, who has been up in the Hartford area for. I forget which district I think is. I think that's the fifth district. But up in that area, she has been there forever and ever and ever and ever and continues to represent that area. And I think that people become a little bit complacent sometimes with their voting. They know the name, it's name recognition, and they just vote. I'll give you this one little last interesting bit. When I ran and it was the presidential year when President Obama was running, and so I was in Bridgeport early that morning for the voting. And so there were several fellows who came over and said, you know, I really like you. I really wanted to vote for You. And I said, well, you can vote for me for the Senate. No, I got to vote for my man Obama. I said, no, you can vote for Obama for president, and then you can vote for me for the Senate. You can do that. And he goes, no, no, no. And he showed me a ballot that had been mailed to him, and every Democrat box was checked, and at the top, it said, only legal way to vote.
- [09:00]
A
What?
- [09:01]
B
Only legal way to vote. So they were actually told it was illegal to split votes like that. And so if you're uninformed and you go to the polls, sometimes you don't get your voice out maybe the way you would like it.
- [09:15]
A
That is scary. And this is why the trust has been gone. And Bridgeport, Connecticut, certainly ended up in the news over the last few months for what happened even in 2024, when we knew it was coming.
- [09:26]
B
It's been happening a while.
- [09:29]
A
Don't get me started. It's too early in the morning. And then did you say you took a little bit of a break before being appointed by President Trump with SBA?
- [09:40]
B
Yes. Well, let's see. That was the 11, 1112 vote. 1112 vote. And. And then President Trump obviously was elected in 2016. So I just kept up with civic things that I was doing, and I was still at. I was on the board of Sacred Heart University. I really enjoyed my work at Sacred Heart. I love the university, and I've been there. I was on the board for about 16 years. So I've seen that university grow from. It wasn't just a commuter school when I started, but it really started as a commuter school, and now it's just flourishing. And I'm so proud of so many of the programs that have gone into sacred art. I devoted a lot of time there, but I was on some other boards that I enjoyed and just continued to do that kind of community work, some speaking engagements, had more time to spend with my grandchildren, which was fun, too.
- [10:38]
A
And so you didn't hesitate at all when you. He called about the Small Business Administration?
- [10:45]
B
I did not. It was interesting because all he said was on the phone was, I'm going to be at Trump Tower, and I'd like for you to come down and talk to me. I have something I want to talk to you about. Okay. And I'd known him for years, and because he had had some involvement with WWE and was a big WWE fan. And I said, well, certainly he was now the. He was the nominee. Not only the nominee, he was the president elect at that particular time. I think it was the latter part of November. And so I went in and of course you can picture, you know, Trump Tower, anybody that's coming in. The press was all downstairs, you know, by the elevators. Oh, who's coming in? What are they coming in to talk to the President about? So when I went upstairs in his office and he said, he asked me to sit down and he said, so he said, I have something I want to talk to you about. I said, okay. And he said, I'd like for you to come in to the administration. I want you to run the Small Business Administration. And he said, and I'm making that a cabinet level position. And he said, now, you don't have to tell me right away. You can think about it. He said, but think about this. You've built a business. He said, you understand about business. He said, yeah, how about I. Highs and lows. He said, I want somebody who really does understand what it's like to run a business, understands how important small businesses are as part of our economy. And he said, I don't think you're perfect to do that. What do you say?
- [12:16]
A
As a matter of fact.
- [12:17]
B
And I said, I'd be honored. I'd be truly honored. Wow. And it was just pretty much that quick.
- [12:23]
A
Oh, my gosh. It seems like that's a pattern with him.
- [12:26]
B
Yeah. Because you knew he had thought about it.
- [12:29]
A
Sure.
- [12:29]
B
Before you ever got there. And I'd been very supportive, you know, during the campaign.
- [12:35]
A
But did you have any idea that he was going to serve?
- [12:37]
B
Some people ask me, if he asked me to serve, would I be willing to serve? And I said, be honored to serve. And I think I was asked at one point, well, what position do you think? And I really didn't. I said I would leave that, you know, up to the president, if he thought I was qualified, if he had something in mind.
- [12:59]
A
Wow.
- [12:59]
B
So that was. It was a great day. And it was. I was highly honored. And now to be in the administration again, as the Secretary of Education, to have served twice is incredible. Pretty special.
- [13:16]
A
And I have a list that I'm saving for right before we wrap up here. Of all the. I mean, it's actually not a full list because it's impossible. But all the accomplishments in the first seven months, really, that have happened under your watch specifically. But I wanted to go back to what President Trump said to you. I mean, you've grown a business, you've done this, this makes sense. And that makes me think about. Yeah. The beginning with wwe, and you did everything there at the beginning. I mean, smaller Administrative roles. I mean, you were probably dusting and cleaning toilets at some point as well. Just because at the beginning.
- [13:52]
B
Yeah, actually at the beginning, I mean, it was my husband and I, Vince McMahon and I, and we, we pretty much were, yeah, doing most everything. And there was a period of time that you just were trying to think of everything. And, you know, I think when WWE comes to mind today, people imagine the big arenas and all the wonderful sets and the fabulous production that it is. But at that time, you know, you had, you didn't even own your own ring that the, you know, the, the performers, you know, performed in. So some of the rings were 18 by 18, some of them were 20 by 20. Some of them were in really good repair. Some of them weren't. I mean, so, and so someone had a business of owning a couple of rings, and if you wanted to have an event, you call that person, they set it aside, they kind of dusted it up for you, and someone went and picked it up and brought it to the event. I have been a couple of times now. I wasn't really at events. That's not really what I did, but I'd get a call, the ring's not here. I said, well, that's a problem.
- [15:00]
A
That's a problem.
- [15:01]
B
That's a problem. You know, you don't have the main stage for the event, but so it would get there and you would have folks who set up the ring and got that ready, and then there was like one light hanging over the ring or maybe they'd have a couple of lights. So it was just, I mean, it was very rudimentary, you know, at the very, very beginning, very amateurish. And then it. Now, that didn't mean that there weren't other WWE events. Like there was Madison Square Garden and some of the others that. But we didn't own the business at that time. And so most of the performances that we were having at that time were not the big grand ones. There were the occasional ones. There was New Haven Coliseum, there was the Bangor Municipal Auditorium, but some of them were still those rudimentary ones. And you, you did co promotions with local charities because that's how you got people interested. You would, you know, you would have one with the Boys and Girls Club or with, you know, whatever a local, a local group was, and they got a portion of the ticket sales and they then sold all the tickets for you and that, or helped sell the tickets. And so it was that kind of grassroots promotion when you were first growing. So it's come a long way you think?
- [16:16]
A
Yes, it's incredible. Were there ever times early on where you and Vince thought, what the heck have we done? And you know, fearful maybe that it.
- [16:26]
B
Wasn'T going to really go, no, because we were building as we went. However, during that time we did have an accountant, a young accountant who suggested that we were sort of putting all of our eggs in one basket and we should diversify a little bit. And he made some suggestion that we should invest in a. Because he had invested in a construction company of all things, which of course we knew absolutely nothing about. But we did put money in some construction accounts. We co signed on some loans, you know, for those that went belly up, which eventually put us into bankruptcy. And it wasn't the wrestling side of what we were doing in that business, but it was the other side that we had invested in outside of what we were doing with the wrestling entity. And we lost everything. My house was auctioned off, my car was repossessed in the driveway. I was pregnant with Stephanie, our second child. So I know what it's like to lose everything. And I often, when I'm telling this story, I'll say, but always remember, in fact, the convention that is here or the conference that's going on now with young conservative college students, I spoke to them earlier this week and I told the story and I said, so let me give you a bit of advice. Don't be afraid to take risks because you learn from your mistakes. Protect your downside, but don't be afraid to take mistakes because it's not how you fall, it's how you get back up.
- [18:04]
A
Yes.
- [18:06]
B
And that we did and we pushed forward and you know, we continued to build.
- [18:12]
A
You did that while you're building your family? Literally, yes. Walking around pregnant with, I mean, Stephanie was your second, Shane is your first, right? Yes. I mean that is something that so many women and fathers as well, but women struggle with. I got a question speaking at the YAF conference, the YAP conference as well, just from these young women who say, I want to have this career and I want to do so much, but I don't want to give up on having a family. And we're being told now I think the message is changing, but oh my gosh, career, career, career. Go first and you know, later come back to try to have a child. There's no guarantees now. I mean, it's a confusing time. I think for young women at that time. This is early 70s. I think Stephanie and I are about the same age and I mean it was very different. Right. A Working mother was not as common. Probably looked at differently. Can you describe that time?
- [19:08]
B
Well, you know, it's interesting because my mother had a career. My paternal grandmother lived with us. And so my recollection when I was coming home from school, my grandmother was there, so that made a difference. But I didn't have that when Stephanie and Shane were born. So it was finding caregivers that you had comfortable. You felt comfortable with, or a preschool, which I never was really thrilled about. But when Shane was small, I didn't work. And then when Stephanie came along, really, even though we were building a business, I was able to do most of it from home because I didn't travel. I wasn't on the road. That was the side of the business that Vince handled. I was more the, you know, the business side or the, you know, administrative side or whatever it was we needed to get done at that particular time. So I was able to do a lot of it, you know, from home, which. Which made a big difference. But when I'm asked, what is that work life balance? And I said, the balance is some days it's 9010 one day, and it's 9010 the other way the next day. And I said, so you hope somewhere along the way you average out somewhere between 45 and 55, and it kind of works itself out.
- [20:27]
A
Yeah, I'm asked that question a lot, too. Mine are now 23, 21, 19.
- [20:32]
B
Bing, bing, bing.
- [20:33]
A
Yeah, I don't remember much from those years. When I started at ESPN, they were 11 months, two and four. And, you know, in 2007, it was a very different time there with women. And I just remember being so scared to disappoint people at work. So you don't sleep and you're.
- [20:53]
B
You overcompensate for everything.
- [20:55]
A
And so now, as I tell young women, don't do what I did in.
- [20:59]
B
Yeah, be a normal person.
- [21:00]
A
You have to. But I beat myself up and tried to be so perfect and realized quickly that it was impossible. So I actually try not even to use the word balance anymore with work life, because that makes it sound like it has to be equal. And it's impossible.
- [21:13]
B
That's why I say the balance sometimes is nine a ten.
- [21:16]
A
Yeah.
- [21:16]
B
I did a series at Sacred Heart University called Women can have It All. And we did it, I think, once a quarter. And I had guests would come in, we'd kind of Fireside chat a little like this conversation today. And it was fun to do because, I mean, you know, you have women from different careers, and the irony of the title was you can have it all. You just can't have it all at the same time. And so that's what we talked about. And so the women giving advice to all these. And it was a successful series because not only did we have young men and women coming from campus to be there, but we opened it up to the community. So it was well received. It was a lot of fun. I think once I had Elaine Chao, while she was the Secretary of labor. We had a dear friend of mine, Stacy Schefflin, who was on HSN for years and years and years selling her makeup line. And then different women. We had Bonnie Hammer from NBC Universal come, and it was all of us talking, pretty much. There were common themes throughout the conversation, was, yes, I was doing this, I was doing this. But, yeah, you can have it all, just not all at the same time.
- [22:40]
A
And I think that has to be made very clear.
- [22:42]
B
How?
- [22:43]
A
Because the pressure that young women put on themselves.
- [22:47]
B
Sure.
- [22:47]
A
Right now, I guess forever, but it just. You have to not be. That's right. My biggest regret, I just beat myself up, and I was just so afraid of disappointing people along the way, and most importantly, my kids.
- [23:02]
B
Yeah.
- [23:03]
A
And so how do we make sure our kids don't do that to themselves? Let's talk about it and talk about those failures that I had or moments that I wish I could take back. So then our kids are a little bit better. That's the goal for me, at least. You were an incredible example, obviously, for both your kids, but Stephanie's. I've talked to Stephanie about you and the leadership that you showed her, along with the love. And now you have six grandchildren.
- [23:28]
B
Six?
- [23:29]
A
Yeah.
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B
Three boys, three girls.
- [23:30]
A
That's perfect. Well planned.
- [23:31]
B
Yeah. My son has three boys and Stephanie has three girls.
- [23:34]
A
It's amazing.
- [23:35]
B
I think by the third one, they were each hoping that they might get a different one, but that didn't happen. So they are. They're thrilled. As a matter of fact, Stephanie and her family are touring Greece and they're having a wonderful vacation right now. And then my. My son and his wife spend a fair amount of time there at their beach house during the summer. And so the boys learn to surf and they have beach jobs and that sort of thing. But actually, my oldest grandson, Declan, is. Did have an internship at ESP. Oh, he did this summer on the 40 under 40 show. I think that might be what it's called, but that's close. I'm probably not saying it exactly right.
- [24:16]
A
Well, I know they're doing. They were doing 50 states in 50 days. But it wasn't that similar to what you're starting here. Right. Look at Savannah, which we will get to. That's great. I always tell kids who say, I want to do this, or Sportscat, whatever, internships, just do it all hands on, paid or not. I was so broke, but you just get your hands in there and see. And then quite often a lot of them say, okay, this is cool and it's not what I want to do, but you got the opportunity to see it.
- [24:43]
B
Sure. And an internship can lead oftentimes, especially if you're, you know, like Declan would be. He's a. He'll be a senior in college. It could lead to a career after that because you start to make connections and that sort of thing. But so it's. Internships are so cool. They really are.
- [25:00]
A
How do you. Again, balance. See, it never goes away. How do you find the time with six grandkids? Now I know how important that is to you and families. It always has been. And you're a little busy. So what does that look like?
- [25:15]
B
Well, it's fun. It is challenging. But, you know, Washington, D.C. is not that far from Connecticut. It's not like a cabinet member who, like Lori Chavez Durama, who was Secretary of Labor, she is from Oregon. And I think Oregon or. I think it's Oregon or Washington. And so for her to get home is really, really different. And she has a new grandbaby she is missing seeing. I can be home on a plane in an hour.
- [25:42]
A
Yes.
- [25:43]
B
So I've been able to get to a lot of weekends homes to see football games and softball games and make beach trips and just, you know, it's not always quantity of time, but quality of time. And that you've made the effort to get there, to watch that or to see that. And it just thrills me to be able to do it. So I make every effort to do that. Like when Shane and Stephanie were growing up, I said, I am so fortunate that I never missed an opening night for any of the school plays or that sort of thing. I missed one, one opening night. Other than that, somehow you jiggle, you do whatever it is you need to do to get there, and you can't always do it. But if you're really making the effort for the majority of the time, sometimes showing up is just so much a part of. Maybe you missed the first 10 minutes, maybe, you know, whatever. You weren't there for the kickoff, but, boy, you were there when the touchdown got scored. And it's just, it's Showing up, it's being. It's being present in their lives and letting them know you always have their back. So now with grandchildren, it's just, you get to go. You're the grandma. You don't have the responsibility of doing all the stuff you did. As a parent, grandchildren are the best thing.
- [27:01]
A
I keep hearing that I'm not quite ready yet.
- [27:03]
B
No, no, you shouldn't be. They are so fun. And I remember Stephanie saying to me one time, mom, you would never have let me do that. That I was letting her girls do. And I said, exactly. But I can let them do it.
- [27:15]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [27:16]
B
I'm gonna give it back to you.
- [27:17]
A
Give them right back to you. Exactly. But you're so right. It is the effort. And even when they're younger and can't maybe say that. That they appreciate that part later, they do. I've heard that sense. I'm sure you have as well.
- [27:31]
B
When I get just little hearts, you know, on a Snapchat or a text message, and it's just somehow I popped into their mind. That was nice. You just get a little heart.
- [27:41]
A
Wait, you're on Snapchat.
- [27:42]
B
I am with my grandchildren.
- [27:43]
A
Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.
- [27:45]
B
Yeah.
- [27:46]
A
I wonder. See, I. But I realized that they have, like, different accounts, and so I'm blocked from a couple.
- [27:53]
B
I am sure that I'm not on all of them, and I'll just get a little notification then. I know that they mean it's okay for me to see that. I don't respond on them, though, if they're like their friends. Come on it as well.
- [28:04]
A
Oh, you can't even begin to go there.
- [28:07]
B
No, I just go. Okay, good.
- [28:10]
A
What are conversations like with the grandkids? They see you. They've always seen you in the public eye. Is this different for them based on what you're doing today?
- [28:20]
B
I think what's what. Yes. What's a little bit unusual for them is as a secretary.
- [28:24]
A
Yes.
- [28:25]
B
I have a security detail. And so for them, they think that's odd. They think that's odd. But they're starting to become more accustomed to it now. And it's fun things like. Well, they call them your guys. Are you guys going to be with you? Yes, they are going to be there, but. And so if I'm pulling up to one of their games or something and they're like two cars of security and they've been there in advance and they're checking things out, and like most high school kids, it's like, could they eye roll?
- [29:02]
A
Exactly.
- [29:02]
B
Could they sort of slide in around on the back and it's okay, but they're fine with it now.
- [29:07]
A
Yeah. Are there conversations about what you're doing with education?
- [29:11]
B
There are. And especially I have three grandchildren in college and three in high school. So the three in college have been paying close attention to the things that we've been doing with universities. Looking at some of the. And especially since we're in the northeast area where several of the universities that we've taken action against, like Columbia, like brown, like UPenn, and they're asking, you know, about those, and they're seeing and appreciative of the fact that you want to make sure that students are really admitted to college and evaluated on their merit and not because of their race or that they're not in any way not treated fairly on campus, you know, because of religion. Anti Semitism was just a really hard issue, but the president campaigned on that. And so it was part of his determination that we. That we take care of that.
- [30:17]
A
I feel like most kids, and again, my younger two are still in college. Most kids agree that these have been unfair practices, agree that it went over the. Over the top, just overboard with some of the demonstrations. Have you found that as well, being on these campuses? And obviously you're talking to your own grandkids who are part of that demographic.
- [30:39]
B
Yeah. And my middle grandson, who's at UNC told me, he said, because there was at one point there was a group on campus at UNC that were trying to take down the flag.
- [30:50]
A
Yes.
- [30:51]
B
And he called. He said, don't worry, I'd be. I'm not there today, but if I were, I'd be part of the group getting the flag back up. Gamma, Gamma, you don't have to worry about that. But they do understand how unfair it is for students who were actually attacked on campus, faculty being attacked, students who were locked in a library, who are not allowed to get out and study. So, you know, our agreement that we came to with Columbia did in fact address those issues, however, not in any way limiting First Amendment rights. I mean, I think that all students should have the right to protest peacefully. There should be open debate on campus. Schools should be returned to centers of learning and debate and discussion. But if they want to protest, there are times and places and ways to do it. You cannot impact the safety or welfare or the ability to study or have freedom on campus for all students by doing what you're doing. So that is in part of the agreement, you know, with Columbia, they recognized that. They knew they had Some issues they had to address. And so I'm very happy that we were able to address antisemitism, but also fairness across campus for Title VI violations, for also Title IX violations, and right to protest peacefully not being able to wear masks unless it was for religious purposes or health. But if you did, you have to have your ID ready to show. And if the police on campus asked, you must show me your face to match with your id. You're required to do that. So those are some things I think that were very beneficial. And we've used hopefully the Columbia agreement as a template for other universities, and I think that it is working very well.
- [32:42]
A
How would you describe the magnitude of the fight that it has been with those universities in particular in the Northeast corridor, and that we're making headlines? The fight to say, no, no, no, this is unacceptable. These are going to be the new guidelines. Or else?
- [33:01]
B
Well, and not only or else, but we did sort of get their attention. Not sort of. We got their attention big time. By stopping their funding.
- [33:10]
A
Yes.
- [33:10]
B
And we have said, if you are a university that receives federal funding, then you must abide by the laws of the United States. And so they clearly recognize that a they want. And it's big, bulk of it is research funding, you know, from HHS and from NIH and the. I think that research is incredibly important for the good of the country, the kind of scientific research they're doing. So we want that research to be there, but taxpayers are invested. It's taxpayer money that is going there. And so to deprive any student of their rights is wrong. And that just cannot be allowed. So Columbia knew they had an issue and was all over the press. And so when we made that approach and they knew that and they wanted. They were very agreeable in the negotiation. I don't think they would have started out negotiating, but when you have your funding stopped, a good part of the funding stopped, then, you know, you have to take action. So we did that with Columbia. We also did that with Brown. Now, the University of Pennsylvania was really Title IX violations relative to Lia Thomas and the swimmer, but they apologized to the women swimmers. They took the title away from Leah Thomas and awarded it appropriately apologized to female athletes on campus. And so that was a great outcome for the conversations with the University of Pennsylvania. And I'm really proud of that work we've been able to do. And we did a press conference with Attorney General Pam Bondi, and we had Riley Gaines there and Paul Scanlon, I think Stephanie Turner was there, who was the female fencer who took a knee from Wagner. And so I think we made some really good headway.
- [35:12]
A
Did you hear us screaming from across the country, everywhere? I know you're hearing that. And your people are making sure you hear the positivity when you. I mean, it's like, yes, like, we're so grateful. Yes, Title ix. But all of it. Because that such a small minority, really, that has made such. I mean, a vocal minority, I guess that's what you call them. But devastating effects on these campuses and universities. As a mom, my youngest is a sophomore Ole Miss, and she had zero desire to stay in the Northeast because of things like this. And a couple of bad students and bad administrators and professors are giving an entire university bad name. You'd think they'd know that from a business perspective, but for some reason, it took taking funding to make them listen across the board.
- [36:03]
B
Yep. And the other thing, you know, that we've been able to do, too, in part of these negotiations is to make sure that the data that is being collected that shows race and shows now also what SAT and ACT scores are, so that you're looking at making sure. And admissions are based on merit and not based on race, which is, you know, incredibly important because that's where universities should operate. And so we were seeing hiring practices based on race, promotions based on race, students admissions based on race. And it just. It was not fair that there are students who were very capable here in the United States and deserving of those places at universities were being put aside on the basis of race. And that's just. It's not fair. That's not what the law says. And so we've made sure that that's built into a lot of the agreements as well.
- [37:07]
A
How much of a fight has that been in particular?
- [37:10]
B
Well, the negotiations in totality were all. They were very strong negotiations, both sides, but it took a few weeks. But the first one with Columbia took more time. Now, Harvard is still outstanding, and Harvard is one of the first ones that we brought all of this to their attention. Their response was a lawsuit, said that we were really taking away their First Amendment rights, which, as I've said all along, this is not about First Amendment. That's when I mentioned before, be on campus, have both sides represented, have open debate, don't have speakers coming on campus that you shun because they have a point of view. Have everybody come? Yes, and that's important, and that's what universities ought to be, but do it respectfully so that everyone's right to protect it.
- [38:01]
A
Harvard has doubled down and with the lawsuits, with their statements, et cetera, where, where do you expect that to go? What's the timeline?
- [38:11]
B
They've doubled down, but they're still negotia.
- [38:13]
A
Okay.
- [38:13]
B
They're still at the table. I'm hoping that that's going to be a really good solid outcome with Harvard. But since they do have a lawsuit pending, I think they're just letting the time roll with the lawsuit. So that's Harvard's way.
- [38:28]
A
They're always unique. They do things their own way.
- [38:31]
B
They still have money that's being withheld, will continue to be withheld until that, that settlement is made.
- [38:37]
A
Is it a set amount? Do you have the. I mean, can you continue to increase that amount?
- [38:44]
B
You can. I mean, we're, you know, getting funding is not a right. It is a privilege for a university to be able to seek and compete for this funding, but it is not something the federal government is obligated to do. And so if there are infractions, you have the right, you know, to withdraw that funding. And yes, you could withdraw more. We don't anticipate that at the moment because they are still negotiating. I'm hoping that there will be negotiated settlement because I think that's the best for both sides.
- [39:14]
A
Title IX in particular. I was, I was there at the White House with all of you when the President signed the executive order. And for goodness sake, can we finally keep men out of women's sports? This should not be this hard. I'm still dumbfounded that it's gotten to this point and that he had to, and you had to take those kind of actions. I do know, correct me if I'm wrong, are there still loopholes that we are working on with the NCAA as far as safe spaces, private spaces for women, making sure that men, biological men are not in locker rooms, et cetera, and scholarships, is there still an ability, from what I understood, for men to take scholarships from women?
- [40:00]
B
Well, those universities right now that are not in compliance, they're awarding scholarships, et cetera. But that is why the President said no more men and women's sports are in their private spaces or in their locker rooms. And that has been absolutely part of the negotiations that we have done with these universities. And we are really holding down, clamping down on that. And there is the right to withdraw that funding if they are in non compliance with that. And so. But I think we're sending that message loud and clear. And I think the fact that Lia Thomas was stripped, you know, of her, of her medals and having to award them rightfully where they belonged. I think that women are starting to feel more empowered because they know that they are going to be protected now. So it's still a fight. It's before the Supreme Court now. The Supreme Court is actually going to determine if men are men and women are women or is there going to be some gender ideology. And I think ultimately the Supreme Court will have to decide that. The president has been very clear in his view, and this is the way that the law of land is now, as far as he's concerned, you're a man or a woman as you're born, as your sex determines. And so it is not based on gender. And I am hopeful that that will be the outcome of the decision with the Supreme Court.
- [41:29]
A
There are hundreds of universities and colleges that you are having to keep track of.
- [41:33]
B
There are.
- [41:34]
A
What, what does that process look like? How. How are you able to really monitor and make sure that they are all in compliance?
- [41:42]
B
Well, we do have a pretty active Office of Civil Rights, as does Department of Justice, as does hhs, as is even the Department of Agriculture. There are in most agencies an Office of Civil Rights that do help monitor, but especially right now with the Department of Justice and with hhs, because a lot of the funding is coming out of hhs. As a matter of fact, there was an action filed with UCLA yesterday or day before that did not involve the Department of Education that the Department of Justice and hhs, I believe just the two of them, brought on their own. There might have been another agency. So there are many watchful eyes that are out there at this particular time because it's the law.
- [42:30]
A
And again, it is empowering when a young woman here, no matter how small her school is, sees it, knowing if she's been watching the news and paying attention. And more and more people stand up and say, no, this isn't.
- [42:43]
B
And they're bringing complaints. Yes, they're bringing complaints to us. They're saying, this happened to me, and we immediately investigate. We have sent let's call dear colleague letters to universities across the country. We've notified. I can't even remember how many colleges and universities now that we are investigating that, we will be looking at their methods and practices. And so what we found, you know, when you fire a shot across the bow and take the kind of action that we did with Columbia, that we did with Harvard, that we did with UPenn, with Brown, we're finding now that universities across the country are starting to put these measures in place. They want to be ahead of the curve. They don't want their funding withheld. They're notifying. I am getting calls from presidents of universities who want to come in and sit down and meet with me or send me letters of actions that they are already taking so that we are aware now, we might trust but verify. We will trust but verify. And then if, you know, any complaints, you know that are coming in. And I think what is empowering women to come forth is these actions that we've taken because they know we mean business. We've put teeth in these agreements.
- [43:58]
A
Absolutely.
- [43:58]
B
We have the ability to monitor. That's another part of these agreements. There's a monitor on campus at Columbus, also monitor at the Department of Justice that are constantly talking, reports that must come in, data that must be provided to us. So this is a real action that has been taken with consequences. And if there are uprisings on campus, then safety measures are built in that they must take agreements. Columbia has now agreements with the New York Police Department, and also their security officers on campus have arrest rights. And so lots of things have been put in place to protect, defend the rights, but at the same time do other things across the board relative to meritocracy of admissions and hiring. So I think we've come a long.
- [44:49]
A
Way, an incredibly long way.
- [44:51]
B
I feel really proud of this work we're doing.
- [44:53]
A
It's huge. And we are all America, really, I feel, is so grateful for it. It's amazing what a little accountability will do, huh? Because the law is the law, law's the law. But if you're not being held accountable to follow it.
- [45:05]
B
Look what happens if you're not arrested, if you're not expelled from campus, if there's no teeth in it, then it's. It's not going to work.
- [45:13]
A
Smart business practices by these presidents to reach out and be proactive, isn't it? Because I think it is. Your school is making headlines in that way. You're going to have issues.
- [45:21]
B
You are. And just the other way, if your school has said, we are proactively doing these things, we want to make sure our students are safe. Merit is how our students are admitted and how we give our promotions to the teachers and the professionals. And I think that message is resonating.
- [45:40]
A
Loud and clear colleges and universities. And then. I know, I mean, your job covers every level of education, every kid. Yep.
- [45:50]
B
Higher education.
- [45:53]
A
Had a great conversation here yesterday with Kelly Means, of course, the senior advisor to Secretary Kennedy. And we talked in depth to the point where I thought I was pretty educated about all that's going on in the Numbers. And I wasn't. And David, my body language was like, oh, my gosh, we have so many issues that we have to correct from the grassroots level K through 12. And what you're trying to do now with Snap, what you're trying to do overall, school lunches with kids. And when you look at the numbers of obesity and adults and cancer, it starts with education on that level.
- [46:29]
B
It really does. And the SNAP program, the school lunch program with Department of Agriculture. But we are all working. I think that's one of the incredible things about the President's cabinet. This is a cabinet that really works together. We know each other very well. We are just putting programs together, just like the program that we've at education just initiated with the Department of Labor. Because there are so many workforce programs across the government. And as the Department of Education, as you know, is looking to return education to the states, where do these programs that are in education now, where can they better sit to serve students and the public better? And so Secretary Chavez, Duramer, Laurie and I really are of equal mindset that workforce Labor, Pell Grant Management, the WIOA programs that are in place partially at education, partially at labor, better served to have them at Labor. So what I have said to Congress is, let me show you how this will work. So we have signed a memo of understanding with the Department of Labor, which as an agency you can do across government. We are taking some of our funding to fund the work at Labor. We'll send some of our folks over to help manage labor, will implement it. And I think this is going to be an incredible outcome for us because I think if you're looking at workforce development, where should it be? It ought to be in Labor. I mean, even if you look at some K through 12 and high school and higher education, yes, we all want to expand our minds. We want to have as much knowledge as we can. But if you think about what is your education about, it is really to get to a place in time where you're independent, you can support yourself and you have a job. Whether you're going to be an entrepreneur and you've built those skills, whether you are going to be a plumber, an electrician, H vac technician, technology, you know, develop the next, you know, being the next Elon Musk, whatever that is. It's about education and learning, but developing your skills. And I think so much of that is part of what the Department of Labor does. And as we look in education to, to move things that are out of department and comply with the President's directive to return education to the states and get rid of the bureaucracy of it that is in Washington. We want to find those places where some of the programs that are in education today move to other agencies where they. Where it's truly a better fit, more efficient, more economical to do it. Better outreach to our kids, if you will, and to the development of those programs. So we'll continue to do that.
- [49:34]
A
Returning education to the states. Getting to the point where school choice is something for everyone, that's, again, quite an undertaking.
- [49:44]
B
Sure. The big beautiful bill gave us more money and established, you know, through eca, you know, the different ways now that school choice can flourish more in states. It's still a state initiative, and we're looking at, I think There are about 37 states now that have some form of school choice, but more states now. I think Iowa passed this year, universal school choice. And so. And it took Governor Reynolds two, two terms to get that done. She worked very, very hard to get it passed and in Iowa because she has seen how much better that is for the system of education. The president does not believe that any child should be trapped in a failing school, that they should have choice, their parents should have choice. So how can they do that? They can do it through, you know, savings accounts at school or for scholarships for individuals to be able to. This was, I think, part of the big beautiful bill that you can contribute money into a 501C3 in the state. You get a tax deduction dollar for dollar for that, but that money goes into a fund that's managed by a third party that then parents can get scholarships for their kids to get out of failing schools, to go to a different school or to a school that's more suitable, you know, for them. This is big, big stuff.
- [51:14]
A
Sometimes I wonder if some certain parts of the country don't understand the importance of it, because, for example, in the state of Connecticut, the public schools are quite good, some of the best in the country, relatively speaking, compared to Mississippi, Louisiana and some states where public school system. Florida, where I live, isn't great. Are you finding that being out and about, and I know you're about to take on 50 states and.
- [51:40]
B
Yes. Well, I don't know.
- [51:40]
A
50 days. 50 states. Not in 50 days. We're not going to be crazy.
- [51:44]
B
We're not going to be doing it in 50 states. No, no, no. But I did that at SBA. I went to all 50 states. I went to every six, all 68 district offices. It took me about 14 months. At SBA, we'll do it over the next year. You know, we'll do, I think next week I'm embarking on, on a tour. I'm going to be first in Louisiana. I'm going to be in Arkansas. I'm going to be in Tennessee and I'll be visiting schools. I'm meeting with Governor Sanders. The governor of Louisiana is not going to be there. No, I think Governor Lee was not going to be there in Tennessee. But we have the incredible visiting schools, finding out what's happening in states, what are best practices? Because my goal will be as we return education to the states, we'll be doing it with best practices for you to take a look at toolkits that we were provided. Some states are going to do great at it. Some states need more help. So let's find out what are the best practices around the country. And then I think it's Sunday. I'm going to be in the state of Florida. I'm going to actually be looking at slightly off topic, but be looking at doing a test drive of the new FAFSA system, which is the whole college application system that we have totally redone. So I'm going to be in a high school with students and parents as they are actually filling out the form, doing some of it myself to make sure because we were it must be in place by October 1st, but we're going to have it in September and.
- [53:26]
A
It'S going to be amazing.
- [53:28]
B
And we've redone it so that it really does work.
- [53:30]
A
But you know what, it's taking me back to the beginning of our conversation in retail politics. And you're not running for office now, but that part of it where you are actually face to face and shaking hands and looking people in the eye when they see secretary of education come to their small town, their school and shake hands, I mean the impact of that is going to be incredible when they see you taking the time for them. That is going to, I mean, it's probably something you're looking forward to personally as well.
- [54:00]
B
It is, it is. And you get to talk to parents and when I, when I do school visits and you're talking to the teachers and you're talking the superintendents because people will come get during the summer, I made a few school visits and school was not in session, but parents and kids would come back during the day because they, they were invited by the principal or the superintendent to come. They got to talk to me one on one. I got to see the kids take some pictures and just to hear about what it was like. And I've gone to, you know, micro schools, I've gone to charter schools, I've gone to public schools and K through 12 and high school. And it's amazing, you know, to see how the different thought process. But what we are seeing more and more and what we are pushing more and more now is the kind of curriculum that will get our test scores up. I mean, when only 30% of 8th graders can read proficiently, that means 70% cannot. So my main message, in fact, I will be on a literacy tour is going to be literacy. We have to teach our children to read. So returning to the science of reading, Louisiana has had incredible success with this. Mississippi has, Iowa has. So many other states are adopting the science of reading, which gets back to teaching phonics to teaching sounding out words. And we're seeing those scores, really. Mississippi went from 50 to like 34th, and then now they're even higher. And. But these are innovative governors because the department of education does not establish curriculum. We don't hire teachers, we don't buy books, we don't do any of that. But I think it's part of our duty and obligation to make sure that we're making them aware of what best practices are. So if I had any kind of legacy to leave, if you will, it would be to provide those toolkits and best practices for states to say, oh, this might work for me, this might work for me. Not adopt the whole thing, but how do we build in for us? Because there is no one size all fits education. I think it has to be working with the community in which you live. What are we going to need to support what our people are here? Whether that's K through 12, whether that's higher education, community colleges, universities, working with the community, working with business leaders to say, this is the kind of curriculum we need now to grow and to have good economic impact within our area.
- [56:46]
A
Can we bring penmanship back? I had a kid who came out of high school really not knowing cursive.
- [56:52]
B
It's not taught anymore.
- [56:53]
A
And I thought what has happened, basic things were cast aside.
- [56:59]
B
Cursive is not. My children do not write incursive writing. My grandchildren, they really. I print when I send them notes because they weren't taught. They're all, you know, on. On computers and they print instead of writing, you know, in cursive. I have had that suggested again. As a matter of fact, there was a. A school psychologist and writer that I. That I had a conf. Zoom with a couple of days ago. And talking about how we overanalyze our kids. And one of the things she talked about was the findings and the studies that showed that kids who take pen to paper now retain more of what they're learning.
- [57:45]
A
Yes.
- [57:46]
B
Not computer. Because I asked the question. I said, well, they have to physically type. And she made the reference. She said, but if you think about it, that can almost be like a court stenographer. You're listening, you're typing. But a court stenographer at the end of the day may not be able to tell you at all what the case was about or clearly what he or she has recorded. And that can start to happen when you are proficient at taking notes. You know, on your computer, you're typing incredibly well, but you may not retain the content. But if you have to put pen to paper, you have to think about how to make the symbols of writing and all of that. And it's not. You are more retentive. I've seen scores go up. Kids pay more attention. Cell phones are not allowed in the classroom. No screen time, except if you are having a course that is on the computer. And they're not saying, get rid of everything. They're just saying the predominance of, now let's put pen to paper again.
- [58:45]
A
Yeah. And please, we know the distractions that cell phones are.
- [58:48]
B
Sure.
- [58:48]
A
And somehow we turned out okay without any of them at all. And then when it started to be implemented, okay, here and there. But it wasn't allowed in classrooms. And for some reason, that has been softened throughout the country. And this is the old school me talking, I guess, where I'm like, get them out, throw them out. We don't need it. Because when you look at the numbers through the years, look, we've continued to do this as the technology has increased. Does it take a rocket scientist to figure that out?
- [59:13]
B
No, definitely not. And when we see, you know, the nation's report card go like this, in spite of the fact that we've spent all these trillions of dollars on education at the Department of Education, we've spent this much money, and you'll just see little blips of progress. But. And all of it was with the best of intentions. No Child Left Behind, Race to the Top. All of the programs that are put in place have been with really good intentions. They just haven't worked. You cannot do that. Legislating it from D.C. it has to be at the local level with creative governors and superintendents. Let's let teachers teach. Let's get the regulation of this bureaucracy in Washington out of the way, you know, with almost 50 cents of every dollar that goes into a school is spent in regulatory compliance. Let's get that money to the kids.
- [60:08]
A
Wow.
- [60:09]
B
Let's raise teacher salaries. Let's do all of these things and let teachers be creative and innovative in their classrooms. That's what I want to keep cheering for.
- [60:19]
A
Please. And we need you. Finally, physical fitness is being prioritized once again with Presidential Fitness Test. The pft. I remember doing that. I remember loving it. And then I remember Obama, I think it was in 2012, doing away with it because he said it was, it was too competitive.
- [60:36]
B
Yeah. Or that kids would feel bad if they couldn't do it.
- [60:39]
A
All feelings, exactly. I love that that was recently put back in. And to see the number of people on the list who are going to be helping with that, athletes across the board, coaches, you name it is huge. What is that message that you are trying to send to everyone by reinstalling the Presidential Fitness Test?
- [61:00]
B
Do you know, it's interesting and I thought about it and I said clearly I had a great teacher who made me remember this. But if you think about the Greeks always said a sound mind and a sound body, part of the original Olympics. Sound mind and a sound body. And all of the research and the studies and the results that you see, not only just children, but for adults, if we're exercising, if we're just walking, for women doing resistance training and how it builds our bones and all of that, but it also helps with our mental thought process. You know, you're sharper, you're clearer because your blood is flowing better. All of the things that are going on in your body are just working better if you are more physically fit. And longevity seems to show that those people who are physically engaged, not every time, but often live longer. And you eat well. It is all, I think a combined message. Let's eat well. Let's get rid of the junk, let's get rid of the cell phones, let's have physical fitness. Let's be in the classroom where we're allowing kids to focus on what they're doing and that we're teaching things that are really important to them and planning for their future so that they can graduate from high school with skills. Some of those skills now can lead right into community college or college. I love the dual credit programs. Kids in high school now can take courses from community college or if there is a four year college in their area that participates in these programs. And think of it is they're not paying for the course. There because it is part of their public education system. But they have the credit when they go to community college. So college is cheaper. They already have the course. They can get through the credit faster. And let's look at more certificate programs, because you don't need four years for everything you're going to do. So it's better economics. It is providing the skilled workforce that we need by introducing those programs sooner, working with community colleges that are feeding into our four years if we need that. But if not, working to get those people in the workforce. So, so I'm excited about all this stuff we're doing.
- [63:21]
A
I believe President Trump's quote was that he wanted you to be the last, the final secretary of Education.
- [63:30]
B
That is what he's told me, that I will have a successful job performance when I have fired myself.
- [63:37]
A
How close are you to firing yourself, Secretary McMahon?
- [63:40]
B
Well, you know, it's a big project. Just, you know, and I think it's. And first of all, it does take a congressional vote to close down a department. And so that's why I'm working very closely with Congress, because I know that I have to prove to them that our students will be better served by returning education fully to the states. Now, that doesn't mean that congressional funding, like the Title 1 funding, the IDEA funding, which is for our students with special needs, that'll continue to flow. That's been set up since, I think, 1965. That was in place before there was a Department of education in 1980. So those funds are going to continue to flow to states, and states should not worry about that. That's appropriated money from Congress, how it flows through a different agency or whatever, it will still, that money will get there. They shouldn't worry at all about that. But this is just going to be more effective for students.
- [64:43]
A
Finally, as you fire yourself eventually and you can reflect back on that and really saving millions of kids, making this a better country. Better education system, yes, but a better country with your work. When you reflect back on that and reflect back on, on the incredible business that you built long before you even thought about politics, probably, and a mother and a grandmother. What. What do you want? That legacy, you used that word earlier. That legacy to be. When we think back about Linda McMahon.
- [65:19]
B
You know, I don't often reflect about myself.
- [65:22]
A
I know.
- [65:23]
B
But when I hear my kids say pretty, you know, that they, that they are proud of a lot of the work I've done, and my grandchildren are now having a better understanding, you know, of what it's like to be in government when they have walked on the campus of Sacred Heart University and see the Linda E. McMahon Common Building, where. That's where the building where the kids go. And I think it makes me feel very good that they hope that their lives have been enriched by some of that and then their children. It's like all of us who are servant leaders want to give back. And. And that's why I left business, was to start to give back because I had had the blessings of being very successful and I wanted to give back. And so I will. I'm very proud of being able to do that, and I hope to continue to have some success with that.
- [66:23]
A
We are blessed to have you in charge of this and to be the fighter that you're willing to be and always have been. Thank you. Now we are seeing it in a different way, and it's amazing.
- [66:33]
B
I appreciate that. Thanks so much for having me on your show.
- [66:36]
A
Thank you for taking the time. Enjoy those 50 states.
- [66:38]
B
Yeah, it's going to be great.
- [66:40]
A
Thank you, Sam.