The Bob Knight Story Dakich Never Told | Sage Steele Show

Summary

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The Sage Steele Show | “The Bob Knight Story Dakich Never Told”

Date: July 29, 2026
Guests: Dan Dakich (host, Outkick’s “Don’t @ Me”, former Indiana basketball player and coach)
Host: Sage Steele

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Episode Overview

This candid and wide-ranging episode reunites Sage Steele with longtime friend and sports broadcaster Dan Dakich. Together, they dig into Dakich’s up-close experience with legendary (and controversial) Indiana basketball coach Bob Knight, including a physical altercation Dakich has never shared publicly. The two also explore the intersection of sports and culture—covering the evolution of ESPN, race and politics in sports media, the current chaos around WNBA star Caitlin Clark, and broader issues of leadership, accountability, and authenticity in American sports and media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Bob Knight Era – Truths and Untold Stories

• Setting the scene:
  Sage and Dan reflect on Indiana basketball in the 1980s, especially the expectation culture Knight instilled.

  • "[Coach Knight] cultivated young men. He didn't care. Black, white, whatever. It was about being a man." – Sage Steele [05:26]

• Shutting down Michael Jordan (Indiana vs. UNC, 1984):
  Dakich shares the lore—and humility—behind being the guy who allegedly “shut down” Michael Jordan.

  • "I looked in the camera and ... It just wasn't that hard. And that was my answer because I didn't know that I had done anything." – Dan Dakich [02:41]

• On race and Bob Knight’s principles:
  Dakich defends Knight against accusations of racism, arguing Knight’s focus was on honesty and equality. He details growing up in a majority-minority school, learning that “everybody’s the same” from his principal father.

  • "He doesn’t care if you’re Black or White...If you're good, you're good. If you're bad, you're bad." – Dakich [06:21]

• Falling out with Coach Knight:
  Dakich reveals his relationship soured due to recruitment conflicts, Knight’s waning interest, and ethical disagreements, notably refusing to lie in a lawsuit on Knight’s behalf.

  • "He was pissed off that I was doing the Big Ten game...and he would rip me behind the scenes." – Dakich [10:14–13:55]
  • He never reconciled with Knight before his death, but is at peace with how he handled it.

• The Never-Told Physical Altercation:
  Dakich, for the first time publicly, details being backhanded by Knight, threatening to fight back, and the aftermath involving staff intervention and anxiety over the incident going public.

  • "You ever put your hands on me again, you ever do that again, I’m gonna knock you out in front of your own players." – Dakich [13:59]
  • "I swear to God, I didn’t eat for three days." – Dakich [13:59]

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2. Reconciling Bob Knight’s Dual Legacy

• Knight’s abusive moments (e.g., Neil Reed choking, Calbert Cheaney/whip joke) are set against his dedication and charitable acts; Dakich asserts all people, including Knight, are deeply flawed but Knight’s latter years were colored by waning work ethic and desire.
  • "He didn't want to coach, he didn't want to do the work...but he wanted wins and wanted to be Bob Knight." – Dakich [18:49]

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3. Sports, Media, and the Shifting Culture at ESPN

• Rise, heyday, and politicization:
  Both recall ESPN’s best years, the sense of camaraderie, and the dramatic shift post-George Floyd, where fear of controversy and over-corrections led to a politically charged environment.

  • "All of a sudden, I didn't want to go there." – Dakich [25:57]
  • "After George Floyd, I think the entire thing at ESPN was scared...they went overboard." – Dakich [26:48]
  • "I better get out of here because this ain't going to go well... I want to get involved in the political landscape of things, so let's go." – Dakich [26:48]

• Inconsistency and leadership failures:
  Sage and Dan criticize ESPN’s inconsistent application of standards for “controversial” speech among staff, suggesting left-leaning personnel faced less scrutiny than outspoken conservatives.

  • "If you're hurting our bottom line...you're going to get cut." – Dakich [32:23]

• Ryan Clark and 'sacking up':
  The pair dissect Ryan Clark’s on-air persona and firing, claiming he exemplifies a lack of resilience in modern sports media.

  • "One thing that is sorely lacking in this country is adult males with the great American penis...Sack the living hell up." – Dakich [38:01]

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4. Leadership, Victimhood, and Authenticity

• Dangers of ego and losing perspective:
  Both note that “believing your own BS” is a risk at places like ESPN, where stardom breeds entitlement.

  • "You start believing your own nonsense...you think you’re bulletproof, and next thing you know, boom, you screwed up and you’re out." – Dakich [43:13]

• Commandment to treat everyone well:
  Dakich describes being taught to value every staff member and notes that real reputation is earned among those who know you, not through online narratives.

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5. WNBA Chaos: Caitlin Clark, Race, and Business Fumbles

• America250 patch and cultural signaling:
  Steele laments WNBA players refusing to wear the America250 patch, arguing it’s about celebrating American progress.

  • "We're not celebrating this perfect country. We're celebrating 250 years of this perfectly imperfect country that has allowed these women now to be making millions of dollars." – Steele [47:00]

• Leadership vacuum and identity politics:
  Dakich suggests a lack of strong leadership at WNBA HQ and claims decision-making is being overtly influenced by “angry African American lesbians”, leading to business missteps.

  • "That group is dominating that league...the leadership...does not want to...anger that particular group." – Dakich [48:29]
  • The WNBA, he argues, is failing to capitalize on the business opportunity of Caitlin Clark because of identity politics.

• Fever’s failure to protect Caitlin Clark:
  Both agree Indiana has failed to defend or promote Clark, despite her transformative impact on the league. They point out Clark handles adversity better than league officials or coaches.

  • "She's the only adult in the room almost damn near anywhere." – Dakich [53:39]

• On fair criticism of Caitlin Clark’s behavior:
  Dakich supports criticism about her on-court outbursts but underscores the unequal pressures she's facing.

  • "She's hard to watch sometimes...but that is absolutely a fair criticism." – Dakich [59:08]

• Business sense vs. activism:
  They contrast Sophie Cunningham’s viral support for women’s sports and selling out merchandise with the league’s hesitation to embrace non-politicized stances—linking it back to ESPN’s missteps in conflating politics and business.

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6. NBA, LeBron, and Changing Legacies

• LeBron to Philadelphia:
  Dakich sees LeBron’s move as making Philly the strongest team in the NBA and challenges the “ring-chasing” narrative.

  • "If I win another title with another team...take another team to the NBA Finals..." – Dakich [67:54]

• The enduring pull of basketball nostalgia:
  Both revel in the unexpected success of teams like the Knicks and reflect on how changing fortunes add to the NBA’s appeal.

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7. Wisdom, Perspective, and Loss

• Paring down to what matters:
  Dakich and Steele each discuss the freedom of aging, simplification, and focusing on relationships over reputation or career.

• Dakich’s father’s sudden death changed his focus:

  • "It made me appreciate as opposed to chase. It made me, you know what? Love as opposed to like. And it also made me say, I'm not wasting time with nonsense." – Dakich [72:41]

• Measuring real legacy:
  Dakich’s approach to mourning: writing down the good he's done and letting go of obsession with external success.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On challenging Bob Knight:
  "You ever put your hands on me again, I'm gonna knock you out in front of your own players." – Dan Dakich [00:00, again at 13:59]

• On how ESPN changed after 2020:
  "After George Floyd, I think the entire thing changed...and I knew that this was changing for a middle-aged white guy that had controversial issues as a radio host." – Dakich [26:48]

• On men sacking up:
  "One thing that is sorely lacking in this country is adult males with the great American penis... Sack the living hell up." – Dakich [38:01]

• On the WNBA’s leadership vacuum:
  "They have crapped the bed at every (opportunity)...there's absolutely no leadership." – Dakich [48:29]

• On why Caitlin Clark shouldn’t have to leave for Europe:
  "Why should she have to go to Europe? Why should she have to start her own League?... She grew up, you know, shooting hoops like all of us..." – Dakich [62:12]

• Hard-earned wisdom after loss:
  "It made me appreciate as opposed to chase… I'm not wasting time with nonsense." – Dakich [72:41]

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Major Timestamps

• 00:00–05:30: Early memories, Indiana basketball, shutting down Michael Jordan
• 05:26–09:49: The culture under Bob Knight—race, manhood, and leadership
• 10:14–15:48: Personal and professional split with Coach Knight, never reconciled
• 13:59: The fist-fight story—Dakich confronts Knight after being hit
• 18:49: Reconciling Knight’s virtues and faults
• 23:37–32:23: ESPN’s golden years, politicization, and the “woke” shift
• 35:00–41:46: Ryan Clark, leadership, and the culture of victimhood
• 47:00–53:39: WNBA, Caitlin Clark, America250, and league business challenges
• 59:08–62:12: Fair criticism of Caitlin Clark, pressure, and the need for protection
• 67:18–71:48: NBA talk—LeBron’s move to Philly, coaching, team dynamics
• 72:41–77:59: Personal shifts, Dakich’s father’s passing, how loss changes priorities

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Episode Tone & Flow

• Frank, no-nonsense, conversational: Heavy on blunt opinions and trust built between two friends.
• Candid recollections: Dakich opens up about a major secret; both are unafraid to challenge groupthink.
• Reflective and philosophical: The back half transitions to gratitude, simplification, and wisdom through hardship.

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Summary for New Listeners

For those not familiar with Dan Dakich or the intricacies of Indiana basketball and ESPN’s inner workings, this episode is as much a lesson in personal and professional resilience as it is an exposé of sports and media culture. You’ll come away with hard-earned truths about leadership, the price of authenticity, and why standing up for principle—even against legends—is sometimes the only path forward.

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Transcript

[Dan Dakich]

And I went in there and I said, coach, I know you're mad at me, but I gotta tell you, you ever put your hands on me again, you ever do that again, I'm gonna knock you out in front of your own players. I never told anybody I was scared I was going to jail to show you the truth, because I knew how he was. The last question in that press conference, is there a video of Dan Dockage and Bob Knight having a fist fight?

[Sage Steele]

I am so excited to finally have my friend Dan Dakich here on the Sage Seals show. Dan Dakich. You guys already know him, but I'm gonna give the official introduction because usually he interviews me. And it is a role reversal. Today, Dakic, he is the host of Don't Me on Outkick. By the way, congrats. You just got re upped. That's a big deal in our side of the business. Congrats on what you've done with the show. How are you?

[Dan Dakich]

Oh, thank you for that. At my age, I'm happy anybody wants me, but yeah, it's great. I love outkick. And you've been a. You've been great with me over the years. Whether it's a local radio show, whether it's outkick, no matter what, you've always been awesome and you continue your awesomeness. We've done everything from watching the Cubs go to the World Series together with my family, who still talks about it being on the field before the Army Navy game, where, by the way, Chris Harrison said. Is it Chris, man? He's a friend of yours. I go, Chris, most people like on the Bachelor, Bachelorette, his exact quote, worst human beings alive. It was one of the great light, one of the great things that ever. And my wife and I still laugh about it. But thanks for having me on.

[Sage Steele]

No, this means so much. That's the thing. We have had so many memories. But for me, the memories go back a lot longer for me than for you, because I knew who you were a long time before you knew who I was. Because as a basketball fan, certainly, and then going to Indiana, spending the best five years of my life in Bloomington, Indiana, I. I wore the red for you today, Dakotch. And I love that every day on set on your show. Don't me that your old IU jersey is behind you. Can we go back to 1984? Listen, by the way, we have a lot to get to. NBA, LeBron, WNBA, Caitlin Clark, Sophie Cunningham, the chaos, the racist stuff. ESPN drama, constantly. Ryan Clark is ESPN. Still woke you Name it. And also just, just in general, like where we are as a society and the connection between sports and culture. You talk about it all on your show. So I'm gonna go all those places with you. However, for those that don't know, 1984, Dan Dachic, Indiana Hoosiers facing the Tar Heels of North Carolina and Dan Dockic shut down Michael Jordan. I think that's the way we need to say it.

[Dan Dakich]

I think that's the way I always say it. I don't know whether it's true or not, but you know, you know what's weird? Sage like I have an Indiana jersey on and people. Because I want Indiana to be really good and I don't want low expectations. And I always use that game against North Carolina from this standpoint, not that anything I did, but you know, in 1984, everybody and there was articles about this best team in the history of college basketball. North Carolina, Sam Perkins, Michael Jordan, Kenny Smith, all these guys, Brad Dorden. All right, well, we were at Indiana and we came in second in the Big Ten. We were top 20 team, but we expected to beat North Carolina. And people always ask me, what'd you learn at Indiana playing basketball? And there's a lot of things, but the number one thing that I learned is expectations. You know, do you want high expectations, do you want low expectations? And you know, our particular team that year, if you lined up one against one or any team really maybe in the history of college basketball, if you line up who's playing against Michael Jones, who's doing this, you fall short. But when your expectations are such that you're Indiana University, three years prior they had beaten North Carolina national, we're supposed to do that. And I've always carried that with me whether and I, and I had it before I went to Indiana, which, you know, I go back to George Steinbrenner, Steinbrenner buys the Yankees and like, look, we're the Yankees. We're going to go get the best players. And when coach Knight sat in my living room, he's like, look, we're Indiana. We're going to play on national tv, we're going to play in sold out arenas, the biggest crowds and I love that. So when we beat Carolina, you know, it's really funny, I'm running off the court with Alford because Alford was the golden boy, you know, and the, the lady said, hey Steve, we want you to talk after the game to Billy Packer. And they grabbed me. I don't know what the hell I did. Like, I'm standing there post game and Billy Packer says to me, dan, and how'd you do it? It's me, Coach Knight, Alford, Gary Bender, Billy Packer. And I go, I'm thinking to myself, saying, well, what did I do? You know, like, what did I do? How'd you stop Michael Jordan? And I didn't think I'd stop Michael Jordan. I looked in the camera, Sage and I. Sage. My parents are both school teachers. My dad, 51 year principal, Gary, Indiana. My mom, third grade, Gary, Indiana. And I looked at the camera and I. It just wasn't that hard. And that was my answer because I didn't know that I had done anything. I was shy, I had no personality. I was like Squints from Sandlock, the little kid that tries to sneak around girls because he couldn't talk to girls. But no, I learned expectations. And I talk about that all the time in my fandom, or what people perceive as my lack of fandom for Indiana University basketball. I think you got to have great expectations.

[Sage Steele]

And that's what Bob Knight brought to Indiana for years. And oh my gosh, I can't imagine the conversations you've had for so long, Dan. But for me, it's like, why? Why did you like Indiana basketball? Why did you like Bob Knight? Bob Knight was a racist. Da, da, da. All the things that happened in the 90s and, you know, the joking at the NCAA tournament, press conferences with the Whip and Calbert Cheney, and it's like racism, like, that's the exact opposite word that you would associate with Bob Knight, who actually, what he did was he cultivated young men. He didn't care. Black, white, whatever. It was about being a man. Certainly a different era in college basketball, obviously. But if you could speak to that real quick, because I don't know that people, you know, outside of the college basketball world can fully appreciate what he did for you, not as players, but as men. And imperfectly, I will note.

[Dan Dakich]

No, it ended poorly. And my relationship, I was with him 16 years, ended really bad. But, you know, here's the deal. I grew up in Northwest Indiana, Gary, Indiana, Maryville, Indiana. And my dad, as I mentioned, was the region.

[Sage Steele]

Isn't that what my dad was?

[Dan Dakich]

A school teacher slash principal of a melting pot high school, Calumet High School in Gary, Indiana. And my dad, after football games, imagine doing this with the principal, but all the students, it was a melting pot. There was no rich, there was poor black kids, poor white kids, middle class black kids, middle class white kids. The small farms in Gary is legendary. Black Oak. Really, really poor. That's the high school they went to. And my dad was a beloved principal. And the students used to come over to my house after they would TP our house. They would bring, they would bring pizzas, they. Any house would be packed after football games on Friday night. Black, white, Hispanic, you name it. And I learned being a little kid, you know, 10 years old, man, everybody's the same. You treat everybody the same. And so, you know, I don't care if you're black, I don't care if you're white. I don't care if you're mixed. You screw up, we're gonna make fun of you. You know, it's just you talk, you do. And I watch this as a little kid, I'll never forget, I used to literally sit in the corner and just watch all these, you know, big old high school kids interact. Black kids making fun of white, white kid. And it was the same thing at Indiana when I, When I went to. Actually, when I went to high school, it was same thing when I went to Indiana and I met Coach nine. I'm like, he doesn't care if you're black and white. He's not going to pander to anybody. He's not going to play a gu. You know, my dad went to Idaho State and he was a good basketball player, and he was like second leading score behind my uncle, actually. And my dad went to coach, said, why aren't I starting? He said, well, I can't have five out of state guys starting. And, you know, that was kind of it in college basketball after the 70s, coaches were nervous because a lot of black players had boycotted different things, including at Indiana, actually. And Coach Knight didn't care if you were good, you were good. If you were bad, you were bad. If you were white, I'm going to rip you if you screw up, I'm going to love you if you don't. If you're black, same thing. And that's how I grew up. And in this day and age now, it's considered racist. You know, every. If, if I go on Twitter and I criticize somebody, Ryan Clark, for example, boy, it immediately comes back as, you're racist. And I grew up, hey, man, there's no different. You know, a few years ago, everybody said, well, do you see color? And white guy had to have the right answer, right? Oh, I got to have the right answer. I'm like, that's the dumbest effing question I've ever heard. Where the hell did you grow up. And I would explain the story. So, yeah, I don't know. Knight, Knight, when he did that, you mentioned that whip thing. Cheney was the guy. They bought him the whip. They bought him the whip. And all of a sudden Coach Knight and I are sitting in his room and we're literally. This literally happened a lady from the NAACP that night comes on tv and now it's a big racial thing. And Knight's like, you know, here we go. But that's the world we live and that's the world he lived in. And frankly, me being in that world with him as a minion made me very distrustful, and I'm not going to say hateful for, but very distrustful of the media. And, you know, it hasn't done me any favors. I've ripped the media all the time. But, you know, it's just, you got to be honest. And I learned that from him and I learned that from my dad, my mom.

[Sage Steele]

But. But then you became part of the evil media. Doc itch. That's the best part of it. Although you've carved your own lane for sure. I'll get back to that in a second. But I did want again, people maybe who aren't familiar, who aren't obsessed with Indiana basketball, et cetera. Why did it go south with you and Coach Knight and were you able to recover before, you know, before he passed away?

[Dan Dakich]

No, when I played for him, I loved it. And at the end of my coaching career, I was getting out of there. You know, I've never been a victim in my life, but it was really bad. He didn't want to work. And I got a big mouth and I said, coach, and I can tell you some recruiting stories. We had Rafe lafrenz, who was the first team All American. Yeah, he was coming on a visit from. He was at the Nike All American camp in Indy and I had him set to spend two days with us in Bloomington. Coach Knight, yelling and screaming at me, literally did this. You're not going to believe this story. He said, I've got to play in the Millie Schembechler golf outing on Saturday. So we're not going to visit with the LA friends because I'm leaving. But I want you to bring Rafa's mom and dad after they're done with the Nike camp. I said, coach, the Nike All Star game is at 11 o' clock at night, 10 o' clock at night. Then he asked to go check out. Then they're going to drive to Bloomington from the Westin Hotel. Or the Hyatt Hotel. We're not getting there till three in the morning because I don't care. That's our visit. So Sage, this is what happens. We, I don't have a cell phone. We get to Assembly Hall, 3 o', clock, 3:30, he's not there. Maybe it's four, he's not there. I call him up, coach, we're here. He's got 20 minute drive for Ellisville. We're in the office. It's 4 o' clock in the morning. This is the best big man we can possibly get. He walks in, looks at the mother and says, ah, hey Ms. Lafrenz, you look like. And I'm like, my wife is there. And after he did that, I just went off. I mean I what you know, and I, you know, and then that, that was an example of what was happening. So I, we had a bad relationship. When I left Indiana, I had a great relationship as a player. Quinn Buckner and I are the only two, two time captains in the history of the Bob Knight era. 28 years. I'm very proud of that. I didn't care about scoring. I want to be captain of every team I was on. But it got really bad. And then when I went to and he was having problems with Ron Felling and lawsuits, he called up, he made, hey, come on down to Texas Tech. I did, it's fine. But I knew what he wanted. He wanted me to kind of. I told him, I said, coach, I'm not going to lie for you in this lawsuit. I'm just not doing it. Felling's not a friend necessarily. He's acquaintance, good guy, blah, blah. But I'm not lying for you. And so that kind of ended that visit. And then Sage, when I, when I went to work at espn, he was still coaching. He got to ESPN and he was pissed off that I was doing the Big Ten game with Tirico or Davey o' Brien or Benetti or whoever and he was doing the Big 12. And he would rip me behind the scenes to, you know, you'll know the names, Norby and all, you know, and they didn't know that I knew. Coach didn't know that I was friends with these guys. So they would tell me, man, your, your coach is killing you. And so last time I saw him it was at ESPN Building 4. It didn't go great in front of people and I basically, you know, so no, I never, never got back. I don't regret not getting back. I love playing for him. A big part of My life, both good and bad. But no, it's sad because I was. I think I was the second longest guy there. And I love being at Indiana. I love Indiana to my core. My mom went there, my sister went there, my daughter went there, my brother went to law school there. You know, all that stuff. But now, unfortunately, it never, never got resolved. And, you know, that's. That's life.

[Sage Steele]

Are you at peace with that?

[Dan Dakich]

Yeah, very much. Oh, I was at peace with. With all of it? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I, you know, I had my say. You know, I. You know, he hit me one time in practice. Bam, Backhanded me. And after he did that, I'd screwed up. I'd screwed up a game. I moved a kid in the wrong position. But, you know, it was kind of in front. It was in front of the team. I didn't do anything. But after practice, we get in the locker room, and just off of the locker room was a little room where he would go after practice, just. And. And I went in there and I said, coach, I know you're mad at me. I go, But I got to tell you, you ever put your hands on me again, you ever do that again, I'm a knock you out in front of your own players. And he stood up out of this red chair he was in, came at me, and Sage, I wasn't gonna let him do it again. I hit him right here, right, and knocked him back. And I never told anybody, but somehow, and I don't know how this happened, because I was scared I was going to jail to show you the truth, because I knew how he was. Clarence Doneger then had a meeting with him, and I told my wife. I didn't tell my brother. I tell anybody. And I said nothing to nobody. I want. I swear to God, I didn't eat for three days. And I went to practice. And he changed his tune, obviously. But Clarence had a meeting night, called me in. He said, you know, I was wrong. I said, coach, I was too. Don't ever do that again. And next thing you know, sage, how about this? I'm watching. Remember when Miles Brand saved night in May? He was going to fire him, and then they didn't, and they had this big press conference.

[Sage Steele]

Miles Brand was the president of iu.

[Dan Dakich]

Yeah, I'm watching the press conference with my wife. The last question in that press conference, the last one, it was a throwaway press. A throwaway question. Is there video of Dan Dakich and Bob Knight having a fist fight? And I sat there and I went, oh, what and my wife looks at me and I didn't even tell her the story. Then I go, yeah, I don't know, you know, whatever. Or maybe I did tell her story. I can't remember. It's 40 years. But anyway, I got in the car the next day because I had, I get into my office and my secretary goes, hey, Dan, every news organization, you know, back then, cnn, whatever it is, is wanting to talk to you. I got in my car with my assistant. I said, hey, Arnie, we're going to Anderson, Indiana. We're playing golf. I'm getting the hell out of here. But that's the, that's the level that my last year or so at Indiana was at. So I, I, you know, I, I was getting out of there. It did, it wasn't great.

[Sage Steele]

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[Dan Dakich]

Yeah. You know, I feel like we're all flawed and I feel like, you know, it's funny, every one of those has a backstory. Neil, there was a big backstory with that. Ron was like, coach, I don't care, man. You tell coach, we're good, I go, no, you know, anyway. But I don't know. I never really think about that, how I resolve it. I've never. And I will never be a victim, so I'm not going to act like I did. Anyway. I think players. I've always said this, that it was our thing as players. Outside people may not have liked it. People may think it was horrible and evil, and that's cool, but, you know, it's like the Mafia, you know, Omerta la Costa Nostra is kind of our thing, and people will blame everybody for what happens. And that's right. But Knight was in his last years when those incidents happened. I think, as I thought about it later and actually said this to him, I think he had a lot of guilt because he wasn't working hard. He was lazy as hell. He wouldn't go out one day in the summertime. And I'm not bitching, I'm just giving you an answer. And he would be in Montana. Call in. I told you the story about lafrence and all that. And so I just. I think he was fighting his. He didn't want to coach, he didn't want to be a coach, didn't want to do the work to coach, but he wanted to be Bob Knight. You know, Bob Knight and all that. That meant $10,000. Go give a speech here. Walk into a room. Hey, Coach, you're the best. You know, all the. But I. And I've talked about that many times in different. I just don't think he wanted to do the work to be a coach. And, you know, now guys don't want to do the work to be a coach with the nil and raising money to pay players. Then he didn't want to do the recruiting, didn't think he would have to. Didn't want to really get into basketball and coach, but he wanted wins and wanted to be Bob Knight. So I think that was what happened.

[Sage Steele]

Well, certainly a memorable era, you know, that brought so much joy. And there's always another side, and I'm very, very grateful for you. How do you. For you to be Open and honest about it. How do you think he would have handled the success of the football team with Kurt Signetti the last two years winning a national championship? Like, I thought about that a lot. Like, would he have actually been happy that another coach at the university was getting that much love? Because Indiana was always a basketball school?

[Dan Dakich]

Yeah, I've thought about that, too, and I've talked about that with a lot of different Indiana guys, including players externally, greatest thing ever. Oh, this is awesome. You kidding me? Internally, I can't believe they gave him this. I, you know, he would be. I mean, it's just, you know, I, I, I've said that to, you know, he and I would never have a conversation in the last four or five years. That wouldn't happen. But I said it to enough people that I know it got to him. If Indiana see, people then said to me, well, you know, Doc Councilman was really successful. 10 straight national championships. The swimming coach and Hobie Billings lead the diet. I said, yeah, but that's different. That's not a threat. And, yeah, this isn't, though. I will say this. This isn't necessarily me saying that. An indictment of Coach Knight. It's kind of the way all coaches are says. Like, I had a kid that was at Bowling Green, was an Sid. His sister, by the way.

[Sage Steele]

By the way, Dan was the head coach at Bowling Green for a few years there. For context. Go ahead.

[Dan Dakich]

Yeah, yeah, I was there for 10 years. J.D. campbell, who, you know, is the Sid, he was my Sid. And anyway, there was a kid, we really liked him, and he goes to Indiana to interview with Jerry DiNardo for the football SID job. And he comes back, he says, I'm not taking this job. I said, why? He said, dinardo told me I am not allowed in the basketball facility. I am not allowed to go to basketball games. So my point isn't Anything negative on DiNardo. My point is that's territorial in basketball and football. Like, I am so happy that when I was at Bowling Green, I had great relationship with the football coach, Gary Blackney, and then an even better relationship with my neighbor, Urban Meyer. He came in as a young coach two years after me. We became great friends. Still are. Go down and see him play golf, all that, because that's not the norm. So to say that Coach Knight would have been negative or whatever behind the scenes isn't anything out of the ordinary. You know, it really isn't. There's jealousy, competitiveness, that kind of thing.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, makes sense. I don't think I mentioned off the Top that. You and I were at ESPN for 100 years together as well. Like we completely overlapped. When was your last year there, Dan?

[Dan Dakich]

You know, that's a good question. I was there 10 years and I'm not good with that stuff. Um, probably 22, 23. You know, I, I don't know.

[Sage Steele]

But I do know this. I left in 23 and then. So I feel like it was right around. Yeah, right around the same time.

[Dan Dakich]

You, you and I had different ESPN experiences from the standpoint that you were there every day. You know, you were there, lived there as a college basketball analyst. And I did Tuesdays and Saturdays for 10 years at ESPN. You know, I would fly in to get or drive mostly to games, but then on weekends or during the week, depending when they wanted me, I would fly in, you know, on a Wednesday night, do a Wednesday Thursday show, fly out Friday, get to a site. So I didn't have the same experience. So to me, yes, I was a, you know, when you're doing a game analyst, you're kind of an independent contractor. And while you were a full time employee is the way that I would put it. You, you know what I mean? And so, you know, but I did see ESPN change. Holy cow.

[Sage Steele]

That's the thing. I am so grateful for my time there and I know you're grateful for yours as well. I was there for 16 and a half years from 2007 through 2023 when I got there. Dan, we've talked about this. My kids were 11 months old, 2 and 4, and you add 17 years to that. And they're adults and in college and now they're out except one. And what a beautiful time. The best part in this conversation, for the sake of this conversation, is that I believe we were there during the heyday. It was a few years after the. Dan Patrick's left and Keith Olbermann, when he was sane and you know, that whole, that whole generation. Stuart Scott, of course, but he was one of my best friends. So I think feel like we were there for the heydays and then we were there when I started to go south. What do you think being there and knowing these people was the key to when things really began to turn and became unfortunately more political at the sports network?

[Dan Dakich]

Well, to your point, I love the people there. Like I really did. I, I loved, like I would get there and I had a whole. I'm not going to bore you with my schedule, but I would get there usually on a Wednesday morning, did a radio show from there, but it's Every time I got there, I walked through Building 4 where you guys were there, you know, the bit crossing type in writing the show.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah.

[Dan Dakich]

Yes. I wanted to see you. I wanted to see the. The vibe, the energy. I would say hello to, you know, Lee Fitting or. Or Dave Miller, and, you know, I was not, hey, man, how you doing? Because I, you know, I loved it. But here's the one thing. And I think I got there, and I think you did, too. Right after the initial. That book, all the Guys have Fun or whatever the. The book was.

[Sage Steele]

I'm sorry, the ESPN book by. Yeah, yeah. By James Miller.

[Dan Dakich]

And I remember walking around and who was I talking to? I don't know. Whoever. Maybe Rev or one of those guys. I'm like, man, this is like a college campus where everybody's afraid to speak to each other. Like, you know, because it was after that book. And I'm like, you know, I mean, okay. And he explained it to me, but I loved espn. They paid. You mentioned your kids. I had two kids getting ready to go to college. I had a Paid one, wanted to go to Michigan. I'm like, ah, crap. I'm just getting divorced. How the hell. Espn. The money was great. Not good. It was a fun job. Got to travel. I hung out with awesome people by far. Fox. Gotcha. All my buddies are still buddies to Rico and Davey o' Brien and Benetti and Dave Fleming and all these guys, you, everybody, and. But then I think George, Floyd, I think the entire thing changed. I think that it. It went from zero to a hundred. And I remember all of a sudden, I didn't want to go there, and that's, you know. You know, it's like Benetti and I were doing Tuesdays, and I don't know what all happened with COVID and all that, but all of a sudden, we're doing games in the Mac and we're doing. And that's not my ego talking. It's just we could see what was. What was happening. So for me, I love. I've never had a job. I always said, even though Coach Knight and all that was bad, last couple years, I loved going there. I loved it. But all of a sudden, I didn't want to go there. Like, they would say, hey, Dan, you know, we need you. And I'd be like, you know what? Covid's around. I'm sick. You know, I just. And I knew it was time to leave. And Clay and I had been acquaintances, and he offered me a pretty good job. And honestly, God, Sage. And this. Take it however you want. I have always understood who I am. I'm not Tom Izzo Calipari. I'm a guy that got a chance. I made the most of it. But I also know, and I can read tea leaves very, very well. I knew that this was changing for a middle aged white guy that had controversial issues as a radio host. And you know, I look at what happened to Ryan Clark and I'm like, well, you know what? I was there a little bit before you. So when my contract was getting ready to run out, I'm like, I better get out of here because this ain't going to go well. And they already had us. I don't know, you probably didn't, but I did. They already had us taking pay cuts. They already had us, you know, doing all. And I'm like, you know what? I kind of want to get involved in the political landscape of things, so let's go. So I, I, I think after George Floyd, I think the entire thing at ESPN was scared. You know, all of a sudden, now we're going to be racist. We don't want to be racist, we don't want to be sexist. We're going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they went overboard. And I knew a guy like me at my age, my salary and my controversies, I was going to be gone.

[Sage Steele]

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[Dan Dakich]

Money talks, Sage. I think this, I've said this and you know, this isn't government handouts. This isn't government cheese. These are businesses. Like, so you sit there and you look and I don't care if you're a white guy, black guy, man, woman, Asian, I don't care. But if you're hurting our bottom line, and I think ESPN got away from that for long enough, and now the bottom line is hurt. Stock's down, you got more layoffs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you're not owed a job there. You know, this isn't, this isn't, hey, man, you know, you coached at Indiana. I'M gonna give you a job because of that, or you're black or you're white or you're, you know. No, this is a business. And I think for the first time in a long time, they're looking at it. Patero and the rest are looking at it as a business. And it's no different. I tell people it's no different than sports. You know, what? If your problems don't outweigh or if your problems outweigh your talent, your, your, your, your value, you're going to get cut. You're going to get fired. And I think a lot of people at ESPN didn't understand that. I think they thought that they were ingrained there no matter what they said. And Clark, you know, the Peter Schrager thing, fine, you want to do that. But when Clark blatantly lied and really didn't apologize for the whole thing with the Louisiana State Police and the tragic death of Kyron Lacy, I think, wait a second here. You insulted an entire police department, a state. What do you. And turn out that you didn't tell the truth. You know, you better be a guy that's bringing in $20 million to that company to survive that the next time they have a chance. So I guess my point is Sage, I think ESPN has gotten out of that era to a bit. We'll see. But I think. And it's simply money, stocks, not great. We're hemorrhaging. People don't like us. They, they, they. And you know what else I think? I think that a lot of people lost sight of that across all businesses. I do. I think people wanted to fill a check, a box, hire, a quota. Wait, you know that the cliches sometimes are cliches. Go woke, go broke. I mean, how many of these businesses you look at Bud Light, Cracker Barrel just fired their CEO? I think I was today, matter of fact, because of their stupidity. Fired a previous one, I believe. So I think they got back to understanding this ain't handouts here. This is a freaking business and we got to make money because it's a business.

[Sage Steele]

You know, there were a long list of things that Ryan Clark got away with a lot of race baiting and always went back to race. And remember when I was going through my controversy and had opinions on being biracial and was asked about it in the context of Barack Obama from years and like he remember he wouldn't go on the air with me.

[Dan Dakich]

Unbelievable.

[Sage Steele]

To talk football because of my opinion on something completely separately.

[Dan Dakich]

If I could cut you off right There. And I apologize. I would have fired him immediately. I never use this phrase in my life. Who the hell do you think you are? Is what I would have said. Like I would have said it F word. But who in the do you think you are that you're going to do this? Get your shit and get out of here. Honest to God, that's exactly what I would have done. Now, I understand when you fire somebody there are protocols, but that would have been immediately. Your job is to go on the air. You are a football analyst. You are the self described. And this is from Ryan Clark, the best analyst in the world. Okay, great, Right?

[Sage Steele]

I can't.

[Dan Dakich]

I know, I know. And you're not going to go on and talk football because why now? What? What? What? What? Now look, I understand.

[Sage Steele]

Hey, it actually doesn't matter why. What is your job is to.

[Dan Dakich]

I was going to say this. I was going to say this. If somebody said to me, you got to go on with a woman that just had an affair with your husband, I would say, I ain't going on with that person. Right?

[Sage Steele]

Fire me, okay?

[Dan Dakich]

Or sold crack to my kid. But other than that, I. Damn Sage. I swear to God, I remember that. And I maybe even text you, I don't know. But I'm like, you did his ass that second.

[Sage Steele]

But here's the problem. I think that a lot of leaders, and I use that word in air quotes now because there's a lot of people there and throughout corporate America who have the title of leader or in a leadership position who have no idea how to lead. And there's a long list of people there that fall into that category, unfortunately. Maybe it's changing, but in the almost three years since I've been gone, it was so sad for all those years to see it. People who wanted to do the right thing. Here's the key. They don't have the balls to make the difficult decisions in those moments. And that's the sad part. And that is because I know all these people don't believe in the crap that's been spent for all these years. I know it for a fact. But they don't have the courage to be like, you know what? This isn't good for the business. I mean, they said it to people who didn't have brown skin. But if you were going to talk to somebody who was black, who had strong opinions and mixed politics and their opinions on tv, on espn, they let it go. And because of their lack of courage, that is why ESPN is in this position. My question for you why is Ryan Clark on TV crying about being fired?

[Dan Dakich]

Forgive my crudeness. Okay, One thing. And I have T shirts in this if you'd like one. One thing that is sorely lacking in this country is adult males with the great American penis. They just are. I mean, it. It. Victimhood. Can't handle defeat, can't handle rejection. You're gonna get up there and you're gonna cry. And to garner some type of sympathy from I. I don't know who. Now, you know, the only person that I saw was our guy, Acho. Oh, it was authentic. Great. It's authentic. But here's the thing. It's like.

[Sage Steele]

That makes it worse, right?

[Dan Dakich]

It's like, hey, man, you. So here's what I always say to people. You're so bold. I'm so bold that I'm going to say things. And when you're going to say things, there are going to be consequences. And I always say, can you handle the consequence? If you can't handle the consequence, you either don't know that there's going to be consequence. You're so full of yourself, which I think is a lot of that with Ryan Clark, or you're a fraud, you're phony, you're full of crap. And either way. But if you're going to be the bold guy that's going to talk about race or you're going to talk about whatever, I mean, you know, how bad a quarterback. What do you say, like, Tom Brady and Manning weren't generational quarterbacks or whatever the hell that nonsense was, then you better be able to handle the consequence of that. And I personally believe that. You can call me sexist, misogynist, whatever you want, but I personally believe that as adult males, we gotta be able to handle that kind of thing. And I. You handled it. Adult females, too, but I can't, you know, I can only speak to the females in my life, which I think all would handle it. My mother, my. My sister was a prosecutor. 25 years. My mother's school teacher. My wife, coach, legend. She can handle anything. My stepdaughter, Harvard grad, smarter than anybody I know. My. My daughter, who you know. So I. But you got to be able to handle that if you're going to be Mr. Bold, if you're going to be Mr. Tough, if you're going to be Mister hey, look, I'm standing up for this. And as soon as Clark got knocked down, he's sitting there crying. Now, I understand my. My views are probably not current with the modern parenting, but we have A saying in our family. And this came from my father, sack up. And I want to name my show Sack Up. And Fox thought it was a little too much. What does that mean? Well, hey, man, you're getting divorced. Sack the hell up. Figure it out. My dad told me when I got divorced, he goes, hey, Dan. He goes, do yourself a favor, man. He goes, you're a popular guy. He goes, get yourself a sweater, lose some weight, you'll be fine. I'm like, okay, dad, like, that's great, right? But sack up. You know, I got, I got cut from my, my high school team. I, I was, didn't make the varsity as a sophomore. Then after the season on jv, I was leading score. They brought two guys up ahead of me from the JV team. And I remember, like, coach, my dad's like, sack the living hell up. Get out there and practice or don't play. Go play baseball. And I ended up being the first player to accept a Division 1 scholarship ever from my high school. So, you know, wow. Sack the hell up. You know, I've been fired, contracts have run out, not renewed, whatever. I've been divorced. Okay? I mean, what are you going to do? Here's. That's when guys jump in the bottle. That's when guys jump into pills. That's when guys jump into porn or whatever their addiction is. And nobody ever said life was easy. No one ever said, you're going to get a job, you're going to keep a job and everything's going to be good. Sack the living hell up.

[Sage Steele]

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[Dan Dakich]

Can I ask you a question, Sage? Yeah, Sage, here's my question to you. Okay? I've seen this so much at espn, and I think this is what happened with Ryan Clark and others. Maybe it happened with me. I don't know. You go to espn, you're so thrilled to be at espn, man. I'm at ESPN the Four Letter. I get to talk sports. I mean. I mean, I'm going there, I'm hosting Mike and Mike, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I've seen so many people do this. All of a sudden they get popular, all of a sudden they got money. All of a sudden they walk down, you know, airport, hey, how you doing? Yeah, you know, and you start believing your own bullshit, excuse my language. You start believing your own nonsense. And I think that's what happens with Ryan Clark and some of these guys. You start believing it, then you become a star, and in your own mind, and you think you're bulletproof, and next thing you know, boom, you screwed up and you're out. I saw that. I've seen that so many times there. So many times. Do you agree with that?

[Sage Steele]

Yeah, totally. And I think it happens probably in all industries as well. You know, you start off small, Promotion, promotion, promotion. So I think the big picture is that no matter what, hopefully you have some people in your life who will call you on it. When you start to lose perspective, when you start to forget where you came from and those days of struggle, it's dangerous. And I'm so grateful. I had a long line of people who would have kicked my tail if I had lost perspective and started to treat people differently. And I think that's one thing that I'm proud of. And you did the exact same thing. You always treated your teammates well, as equals, if not better than you treat yourself sometimes. And so I know that no matter how it ended for me, I can look myself in the mirror knowing that I was kind. I tried to be a good teammate at the end. Yeah, people didn't like me because of my opinions. I'm at peace with that, too. But if you start to believe the pressure and the headlines you're lost. And I think it happens everywhere, though, not just at the four letters.

[Dan Dakich]

You're right. Well, a man named Jack Schramm, who, way back, owned all the TV rights to Ohio State basketball and football. He was kind of a mentor of mine in radio. And he goes, dan, I'm gonna tell you one thing. As I was getting into one year at Big Ten Network and then at espn, make damn sure that you treat everybody there, whether they're holding a boom mic, a camera, whether the makeup people, whether they're. Whatever, awesome. Treat everybody awesome. Like, I just had a long con. Not a long conversation, a conversation with my. My garbage man out here. I know my garbage man's name. I pay him. Whenever he picks up anything extra, he's, hey, Doc, Doc, how you doing? You know, I mean, and so I've always said this. Yeah, you know, what public perception. You go to Google, read that. I'm a bad guy. But you don't really hear that about you or me from people that know you, from people that have been around you. You got. You hear it from people with an agenda, you know, and you certainly heard it from people with agenda. I know I heard it from people. But you'll never hear that from people that know you. And that, to me, is what really matters.

[Sage Steele]

Exactly. I will say someday when I get this book written, I'm trying to decide whether or not I use names for the examples I have of those moments in studio, in a commercial break, when you're watching someone that you've looked up to for a long time, and once that light goes off, the way that they talked to the staff, it was like. It was so disappointing and shocking, and there's no need to, like, crush people, I guess. I probably won't put names in unless it personally affected me, you know, but it's a good lesson. You never know. You never know who someone truly, truly is. So, kids, remember, everybody's. Somebody's watching you at all times. You know, we talked about the whining, basically, and of the wokesters on the left, et cetera. And I am blown away at the. At the whining that has taken place in the wnba. And I don't want to go too deep on it, the league itself and, you know, the subsidies that the NBA has provided them from day one, et cetera. But I think over the last just two weeks, man, they continue to just put their foot in their mouth and, like, just. Just completely make things so much more difficult than they have to be. Let me start at the top. Coming off of WNBA All Star Weekend just a couple of days ago. And I believe the WNBA is the first league to decide not to put that America250 patch on their jerseys. And it's just, it's, it's so sad and hypocritical to me because we're, we're not celebrating this perfect country. We're celebrating 250 years of this perfectly imperfect country that has allowed these women now to be making millions of dollars. What's your take on their reasoning behind not wearing the patch? Which I believe one of the NBA Players association women, the WNBA PA members said it's because back then none of us playing today would ever have been free. So we're not going to wear that patch. That's the point, sweetheart, is that we've come a long way and now let's celebrate how far we've come. Go ahead.

[Dan Dakich]

Well, I mean, you talked about this earlier lack of leadership. I mean, you know, David Stern was the leader of the NBA and David Stern said, this is what we're going to do and this is how we're going to do it. And David Stern was respected. It comes back. When you talk about leadership, do you want to be liked or do you want to be respected? It's an old adage. Right? I mean, of course, you know, people know that. But the truth of the matter is I believe Kathy Engelbert and the leadership of the WNBA are more concerned with being liked. And when you're trying to be liked and you're trying to lead, they just simply don't go hand in hand. You need to be respected. So I think again, they, they, here's my thing with the wnba. You know, Caitlin Clark is here and you go to a game. I've been to three or four. It's awesome. I mean, dads with girls. I always said if, if my daughter, my stepdaughter, were of the age, I'd buy season tickets every year. I'd spend more money to go to get the best seats possible because it's awesome. But you wouldn't know that. You know, here's Nancy Armor writing that there is white nationalists making Indiana fans out to be the KKK or something. This. But I don't have the reason other than to say there's absolutely no leadership. There are people there that don't understand or, or, or are acquiescing to. I believe they're acquiescing and again, take this forever. It's worth angry African American lesbians. I think that, that that group is dominating that League. And the. The leadership of that league does not want to, for whatever the reason, anger that particular group. And if that's wrong for me to say, fine, but that's what I. That's what I see. And I paid attention to this because, you know, when Caitlin Clark came to Indiana, I'm doing a radio show in Indiana, and, damn, I want to know what this is all about. So I've kind of studied this, thought about a lot more than I probably should, but that's what I believe. Again, I go back to something you and I talked about earlier. This is a business. You know, I had Sean Merriman on today, the former NFL player, and he's like, I don't understand for the life of me, something as simple as that. You know, pointing that Sophie Cunningham did. How are they not selling? How do they have dolls out? How do they not have bobbleheads out? How do they not have license? And they came out and said, yeah, we're not like you're a business. Part of being in business is making money, growing the brand, and they have crapped the bed at every. And I can only go back to one thing, Sage, and that's a total lack of leadership from, you know what? From. From Engelbert, her staff, the Players association, the entire group. And the media is even worse. Did you know this? Did you know that Engelbert spoke for 20 minutes at the All Star Game? Not one question about Caitlin Clark, not one question about the. The. The drama, whatever you want to call it, of Caitlin Clark. Not a single media inquiry on her thoughts about all that's going on with Caitlin Clark. Not one. Now, you would know better than me. I don't understand that.

[Sage Steele]

Well, yes, I think the media is certainly complicit in that. Right. Anybody who covers the WNBA consistently, if they're on that beat, well, then they probably are aligned with their thinking there. And I also know from being at those press conferences that quite often the communications director, whoever's running those press conferences, there are conversations ahead of time with media members with the network saying, don't ask about this. I mean, we've seen that. We've seen credentials being taken away from outkick, I believe. Right. Because of certain questions being asked. So they are controlling it at every possible level. And it's obvious. I am so glad that Kathy Engelbert, a couple of weeks ago, reneged on her commitment to come on Dan Patrick's show. And it was in such an egregious way when they were at the ACC Golf Championship out in Tahoe. And she said yes. And then they waited for two hours and she never showed up. While they have her in the background, you know, like on the putting greens, warming up, whatever. And Dan Patrick, who's a legend, the best, came out and was like, you know what? I don't appreciate it. It was more just to your point, about a lack of leadership and controlling the narrative.

[Dan Dakich]

Right.

[Sage Steele]

If you go out there and speak, you can control that narrative. I mean, this is PR101 and they need to fire everybody at the top and come in and fix it. Because you have a product right now that is incredible. The best it's been, frankly. You have a couple of generational talents, and I include Asia Wilson and Chelsea Gray and so many other people. I just happen to not lead with color. Right. People say, do you see color? I. Of course. No shit. We all see it. Do I lead with it, though? No. There are some great players. Caitlin happens to be white, Sophie happens to be white, and they happen to be on the same team. Is the Indiana Fever. Dan, in your opinion, are they handling it as well as possible considering what they have right here in their hands?

[Dan Dakich]

No. No, they've been horrible. They haven't defended Caitlin Clark. I like Stephanie. Why? She's an Indiana legend, man. As good a high school basketball player has ever been in this state. Took Purdue, I think, 99, 98 to a national championship. Carolyn, never hear her defending her player. Think about, even go back, like whether it was, you know, Jeff Van Gundy, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, man, you touched one of their players and it was a very. They were killing the other. Don't you know? They were always defending their players. I'll be honest with you. I've never seen this before. I've never seen where you have a star player, you think your team is good, where you don't do everything you can to, number one, protect your players. Number two, use whatever. Mind games on referees, that kind of stuff, to protect your player and get calls. Instead, Stephanie White gets up there after, you know, the whole throat thing, which Caitlin Clark handles perfectly. She's the only adult in the room almost damn near anywhere. And they're defending. Well, you know what? AT or whatever her name is shouldn't get these comments to her and blah. They didn't say a word about their own player getting elbowed. Fine. Then tried to stomp on it, then say what? I don't even care if you're wrong. Those guys, guys that have coached girls that have coached forever, have always done that. Protect your players. Talk about Your players put your players in the best light. But you know what? This started the second Caitlin Clark got into that league and Cheryl Reeve, who I believe was the Olympic coach, and Engelbert and the rest had to go on the defensive and say, it's more than one girl, it's more than one player. Whatever. The wording was like, shut up. You know, embrace it. Embrace everything that is going on. Embrace all of your players. You know, you tell us how inclusive you are, okay? Are you only inclusive to a certain kind of girl? Are you not inclusive to the very popular, very talented white heterosexual girl that came into the league that doesn't bend a knee, that just wants to play basketball? Doesn't seem very inclusive? I think the Indiana Fever have been awful. I think they have been embarrassingly bad. And it's a damn shame because that thing, it's fun to go to Gainbridge. Great arena, great environment. You see so many Caitlin Clark jerseys. Now you see Sophie jersey. And I'll tell you something else. When Kelsey Mitchell came to the Fever, my son said, dad, that's the best playing nicest girl I've ever been around. I really. She was at Ohio State when he was there his fifth year. Yeah, she would play with us. Awesome. So I'm a massive Kelsey Mitchell fan, but they don't do anything with her. It's, it's, it's astounding to me. It is like even Michael Jordan, as great as Michael Jordan was with the Bulls, hell, Dennis Rodman, I mean, damn, you talk about a rising tide lifts all ship. Rodman was a superstar. Pippen became a superstar. There's room. You just got to know how to do it and they don't know how to do it.

[Sage Steele]

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[Dan Dakich]

Absolutely. I've been very critical of that and people can't differentiate it, like when I she's hard to watch sometimes, great to watch on the court, shooting, all that kind of stuff. But the constant, like, we sat one time, we got seats, we're right on the right on the court, right on the basket, right right next to their bench. And I mean, she's yelling and screaming at teammates and coaches. That's a very fair criticism. And if you want to be critical of that, hey, you know what? You're in a big girl league, you're professional. People are going to be critical of that. I think it is absolutely a fair criticism. In fact, I put a video out one time, she was kind of going off on Stephanie White in the huddle. I said, now wait a second, why is this Stephanie White's fault? You know, people may say, well, she should have control of Caitlin from the get go, fine. But my wife always argues with me. You know, she coached 30 years, biggies, champs, all this stuff. And she's like, look, Dan, think about how much has been put on Caitlin Clark at 21, 22, 23, 24 years old. Think about that for a second. Think about how. And she, Caitlin actually said it to Malika Andrews the other day. She said, you know, I know every time I go out, what's the narrative going to be? What's going to happen after, you know, that kind of thing, and it wears on you. So. Yes, but I do think the criticism of what she does between those lines, bad shot, bad passion, made a bad pass late in a loss at home, I think that is absolutely fair. And I think everybody that plays and coaches the sport, general managers, the sport understands that's fair. The external stuff, the idiotic Nancy Armors and other people on ESPN being just completely racist and stupid, that's out of bounds, that's dumb, that needs to be eliminated. But on the court, hell yeah.

[Sage Steele]

Yeah. I, I, I say this, I've said this to my kids forever. Like when, when, when you look at why someone's doing that, you have to try to figure out why. And I think we know why. Because she's been beaten to hell from the moment she came into this league. And it's not an excuse for the behavior. It isn't because she's gone overboard, she's crossed the line, but it is a reason. And, and, and from there, you have to go back to the leadership question. Right. So who is talking to her about those things afterwards? Is it Stephanie? Who? By the way, I love her. And as the head coach of the Fever, difficult job. Great job. Difficult job. I interviewed her after she won Miss Basketball Indiana. I mean, as a high school junior, she's incredible. I'm obsessed with her and who she is as a person. And is she being given the reins to say what needs to be said to Caitlin and certainly above Stephanie as well? It all comes back to leadership. There have been a million people, Dan, who've been like, screw this for Caitlin.

[Dan Dakich]

You know what?

[Sage Steele]

If you're going to come after her and she's going to continue to get hurt and just the outside noise, the constant pressure. No one in this league has ever experienced pressure like this. Frankly, nobody in the wnba, people say, just go to Europe. She'll make a ton of money elsewhere. Or they say, start her own league. Right. Like, that part is unrealistic to me, of course. What's your thought on, you know, what the line might be for Caitlin Clark?

[Dan Dakich]

I always think again, sometimes even though I'm old, I think like a player and what's real and why should she have to go to Europe? Why should she have to start her own League. You know, she grew up. She's talked about love. Maya More grew up, you know, shooting hoops like all of us that ended up playing at some level. I never got to the professional level. But, you know, dreaming of playing against those guys, dreaming of playing in a national championship, dreaming of your first start in the NBA or wnba. Why should she have to do that? You know what I mean? Like. But. But I also think of it as a father. And if I'm a father and I've never interfered, not one single time when my. My daughter was a competitive dancer, never even got a hold of the coach. Everybody, other parents like Dan, it's too tough. I might. She signed up for it. My son. Never, not one time. But I would have a problem if people were beating her up. And I would have a problem, not necessarily with the league. I wouldn't. I would have a problem with the fever. We just talked about it. Because that doesn't need to happen. You know, hey, look, you go to the rim, you get knocked on your ass, you get elbow, fine. But you're standing there in like your first game. And I think it was Dijon Carton Carrington. Elbows are from behind in the entire bench with Angel, Reese and everybody else jumping up celebrating it. Wait a second here. Fever. What are you doing to protect my daughter? That's how I not probably would do it with a son. But daughters, as, you know, daughters and dads, it's a different thing. But why should she have to leave? Why should she have to, you know, going to Europe? Women make a lot of money. It's popular. Fine. It's just think of how ridiculous. Think. When Michael Jordan was coming up, he was. People were jealous. He had that shoe. And the jealousy was, well, he's a gunner. He'll never win with his style of play. He's just another long line of guys going to average 30 never win a championship. But nobody talked about him having to go to Europe. Europe guys were making a lot of money even back then that, you know, nobody talked about it. But with Caitlin Clark, for some reason they did. And. And I just don't get it. She shouldn't. This shouldn't even be a conversation. But again, it goes back to the leadership of the wnba. There should be Caitlin Clark dolls everywhere, licensed by the wnba. There should be blankets, there should be T shirts. I mean, there is T shirts, but there should be so much. Same thing with Asia Wilson. No doubt. Whoever. You know what they call it, Q rating or something. Anybody with a great Q rating. Let's go let's figure it out. Let's make some money, let's endorse, let's promote, let's go. But they just don't. They won't.

[Sage Steele]

That's, that's the sad part about the business. We talked about the business side with ESPN and how stupid stupid it's been for them to allow politics to seep into everything. This is stupid by the WNBA to not take advantage of it. I will say this. You know who's the opposite of stupid is Sophie Cunningham, Caitlin's teammate right there in Indiana. Because, I mean, she took this and that was just an organic reaction and it was great. And then she's had fun with it, right? Go for it. We're in a different era with social media. Go for it. But since she stood up a little over a week ago as the first, certainly the first woman in the wnba, but I don't know any other current female professional athletes, current on any high level that are part of the narratives every day that have said what she said, the common sense thing. Women, biological women belong in women's sports, not men who call themselves women. It's very, very simple. And then she doubled down. And what happened? Within the next 48 hours, all of her shoes sold out. They were already, I think, well on their way, but they were all gone men's and women's sizes in an hour. Her jersey now is the second top, you know, bestselling jersey in the league. Behind who? Her teammate, Caitlin Clark. So take advantage, wnba, the league, like Sophie is doing herself by speaking the truth and being genuine about it. Right? We don't need to divide. Those are facts. So I just, I commend, I commend her a lot. It shouldn't have taken that. But I go back to being at ESPN and getting talked to about mentioning Riley Gaines and why there's some 6 foot 4 inch guy swimming with her. Like, never did we think it would get to this point where it would be five, six years later where it took a WNBA star to come out and, and speak the truth. So I hope that they get to a better place with this or else they're going to lose people, they're going to lose customers. Just like ESPN losing millions of viewers, tens of millions over the last few years. Dan, I know I have to wrap it up with you soon. NBA. How the hell did the Knicks win a championship? Oh, my gosh, 53 years. So much fun to watch. I gotta admit, Dakich, I saw the LeBron news and I was like, what? And then I was Glad, because I was crushing him for the possibility that he was gonna go join Stephen Curry at Golden State. I'm like, just stop with this. So at least it's somewhere else. And what is it? A two year, $8 million deal? I mean, it's nothing, right? Why not if you're Philly? Why not if you're LeBron? I guess I thought he'd be okay. Being done. What's your take?

[Dan Dakich]

My take is good for Philly. That makes him interesting. Good for Mike Gansey. A kid I recruited in high school was runner up to LeBron and Mr. Basketball, by the way, Sage, I've never seen this before. Mike Gansey, as a player came to my basketball camp with his team. You know, you got a jersey and you know, he played the entire game with it in his mouth like this. It was unbelievable. I never seen anything like what. I swear to God. Swear to God. It wasn't that. It was stretchier. It was in his mouth. Anyway, he's a gm. I got great. I need to write a book. But to your point earlier, I don't want to name names.

[Sage Steele]

You do.

[Dan Dakich]

Yeah, but if I name names, it'd be bad. But I think it's great for LeBron. And I'll tell you why. Everybody looks at it well. You're ring chasing well from LeBron's side. Wait a second. This enhanced my greatness. If I win another title with another team, take another team to the NBA Finals, you know, Michael left the Wizards. I didn't do nothing. I leave these teams. So I always try to look at it from both sides. I get where people are. He's ring chasing. But I tell you what we're going to do. We're going to watch. And they're a threat. They're a massive, massive threat in the East. I was hoping the Pacer, Sage, because it makes it fun around here.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, my gosh. He would never go to Indiana. Right? I mean, that's not a cool enough city. Indianapolis. It's not a cool enough, enough city for LeBron James. Okay, so what, what does that do in your mind for. For Phillies chances with Jaylen Brown, with hopefully a healthy Joel Embiid with Tyrese like that. This is a formidable team in the east for sure.

[Dan Dakich]

Obviously, I think this is the best team in the NBA. I. I do. I now, Embiid's never healthy, but Jaylen Brown's proven to be a big part of a national champ or a NBA champion. I think it makes them the best team. See, here's the thing, though. And you and I spoke about the Knicks a little bit earlier. People are never going to be fearful of the Knicks until you got to play the Knicks. You know, betting markets aren't going to be, oh, man, the Knicks back to back. And that's a little risky. And obviously I mentioned Embiid and injury and all that comes into play. But I personally, if you look at it on paper, Maxey and Brown And Embiid and LeBron, I don't know, Sage. That's a hell of a team. And I don't like it because I want the Pacers back in the finals.

[Sage Steele]

I know I'm dying. It's been, it's been tough to watch the last couple of years, the way it's ended. Certainly last year against Oklahoma City. Also underrated Nick Nurse, what he did in Toronto or was amazing. I think he's an incredible coach. I'd love to see it for him to, to do that again at another franchise. By the way, with the Knicks, I'm so excited for Mike Brown. Like, again, underrated what he did in just Sacramento alone. I know I. Because it was Sacktown, they didn't appreciate fully what he did with that franchise. After getting kicked around Lakers, he had some time with LeBron and Cleveland. Like, I love that it's happening with, with some of these kind of coaches. So we'll see for sure at the end of the day, Dan.

[Dan Dakich]

Sage. I was in an ESPN production meeting with Mike Brown. He was out of work and I walk in, hey, Dan. Hey, Mike. How you doing? What are you doing here? I'm like, really? Now? He wins the championship. I'm so happy for that guy. Anyway, sorry to interrupt, but that's the way life goes, man. Clark, quit crying.

[Sage Steele]

Exactly. Quit bitching. Exactly. Dan, I just hope people appreciate what you bring every single day. I know I do. Obviously, millions of people out there watch you all the time. This is why I wanted to have you on, because of your authenticity and not giving a crap. My regret is that I didn't get to be more like you sooner. Isn't there such freedom when you just don't care what others think? What took me so long? What was, I mean, amazing that you've just been this way forever? You're like, screw it, this is me.

[Dan Dakich]

Yeah, I don't know about that. But, you know, it gets a lot easier when you get older. It gets a lot easier.

[Sage Steele]

It's true.

[Dan Dakich]

When your kids are out of college. I actually made the best move. Well, other than marrying my current wife, which is the best move Ever. We. We got rid of a house, moved to a house, got rid of a mortgage. So, you know, there's certain freedom to that where you're like, okay, what are you going to do? You know, but anyway, no, see, we all.

[Sage Steele]

When you simplify, I think, to your point, when you simplify in life, certainly the kids are gone, empty nesters. You're with the love of your life now. I am as well. Like you, just make things smaller. What really matters to you, and I actually want to. If it's okay to end on this. What I know about you is that the people in your life, as much as your circle, is much smaller now. Really, really, really matter. And from what it sounds like

[Dan Dakich]

when

[Sage Steele]

you lost your father, I believe that was almost 12 years ago, in 2014. And it was surprising, it was shocking, it was unexpected. And unfortunately, sometimes it takes all of us. Like a moment where there's a turning point where you just, you know, everything else just gets cast aside. What did that moment do for you with your dad as far as how you live your life today?

[Dan Dakich]

Well, you know, to your point, you're absolutely right. And, you know, you're always chasing, right? I want to be on this game day, that game that, you know, that kind of stuff. And I saw my dad. I never seen a dead body before that. My dad had been ziplining in Costa Rica with my mom the day before. They flew to Louis, back home, got to Louisville. We're driving, wanted to stop. We're going to have dinner. My mom calls me frantically because I was just leaving my show. I drive up to the mall, and he just dropped dead, the widowmaker. And I run up there, and the paramedics are like, hey, Dan, we're trying to go. No, thank you. But I could tell, you know, he's gone. And it changed me. It made me. What's the right word? It made me appreciate as opposed to chase. It made me, you know what? Love, as opposed to like. And it also made me say, I'm not wasting time with nonsense, you know, I'm not wasting time. If I'm passionate about something, I'm gonna say it. I'll deal with it. You know what? Life's too short. All that kind of stuff. But to your point, there is a time for people. And, you know, everybody goes through it. But, you know, think about you, for example. You're there. You're at SportsCenter. You're blazing a trail. You do all these great things, and then something happens to you. Okay? Not your fault. Unfair as hell. People being Jackasses. But what do you do, you know, and, And. And do you. Okay, I'm going to start drinking, or I'm going to start doing pills, or I'm going to go hiding, or I'm going to do whatever. No, you get. You get these things and you have decisions to make. And I felt like I had a decision to make. How did I want to live my life? Do I want to protect my mother, to love my brother, love my sister, love my. My. My wife totally fully. My kids have a relationship. But I think everybody has those in different ways because we all, you know, we're all chasing for so long. You want to make sure your kids have good stuff, then you do. And I don't think you appreciate that. Like I. I did one time, Sage, and this is going to sound a little bit arrogant. I sat down in. After my father died, I sat down in my room. I got. I always carry a notepad. I got three of them right here. But I always carry a legal pack. And I just wrote down all the good stuff that I had done. You know, I mean, like, okay, you know, I'm sad as hell, awful, terrible. My dad, my best friend, my mentor, the guy that taught me everything about everything. Beloved. I mean, the line for my dad's funeral, he's just a school teacher lying three, four hours, people coming in, and I'm feeling off. And I, you know what? I'm just gonna write down the good that I've done. Got my kids through college, blah, blah, blah, whatever. You know what I mean? And you realize, you know what? That's all that really matters. Didn't matter that, I don't know, played against Michael Jordan or was on TV or got hated by somebody at the Indy Star. Who cares? That's the stuff. And it's just weird. If that sounds arrogant and stupid, I'm sorry, but that's kind of way I handled it.

[Sage Steele]

No, I think it's wonderful. By the way, there's no book on how to handle those moments. Moments that we all think about. And then you go on living your life until. Until it happens.

[Dan Dakich]

Well, I'll tell you what it was.

[Sage Steele]

I can. I can say this, like, as. I hope this comes across the right way as well. Like, I'm proud of you in a. In an admirable way. Like, I admire you for how you have chosen to handle so much the things people say to you. I mean, I didn't know about the physical altercation with you and Coach Knight, but you, like, you. You stand up for principle, even for people that you don't know. And I'm grateful to call you a friend. And most importantly, I can only imagine how proud your dad is of you, honestly. Hopefully you knew that before, but what you've done now, how you've chosen, honestly, how you've chosen to live your life and be good friends to people like me, no matter if I'm, like, in a great place or if I'm hurting, you are that person, Dan.

[Dan Dakich]

Thank you.

[Sage Steele]

And I. I love you to death. I'm so happy for this new chapter for you. And congrats again on getting this show to the level that you have. Don't me. And I think you guys who haven't watched the show before, you know now you need to check it out. Like, Dan brings it every single day.

[Dan Dakich]

Well, you've always been a superstar in my life, really. And I. And I'll never forget. I'm sitting there, I'm hugging you when the Cubs are going to win, and my. My. My sister's there, and we're all like, you know, it just. This is going to sound very weird. You and I haven't been in the same room 30 times, 40 times, but there are very few people like this. Whenever I see you, if I hopefully get a chance to see some, it's like one of my best friends, I get to see him again, and you pick up like, we hadn't seen each other probably since the Cubs game, and next thing you know, we're on the sidelines at. At the. The Army Navy game, and my wife's like, we ain't leaving. Sage is awesome. Let's go. Her dad's there, and it. It. And there. There are not a lot of people like that. You know, there. There are some guys that are your friends that when you see, it's uncomfortable, but I have no idea why. But for forever, it's been like, hey, and that's testament to you, not me, because I'm a big dork. You're a loving, caring person, and I'm just a big, meathead, bald, fat guy that talks a lot. But no, seriously, it's always been that way, and it's very odd to me, and I'm very fat. Thankful for it.

[Sage Steele]

Dan Dakich, thank you so much. More fun times to come. Dave and I will hit you up when we come to Indiana. And if you're in Nashville, you guys better let me know.

[Dan Dakich]

I used to go to Nashville when my daughter lived there, and my wife and I had to wring out our liver every time we went because my daughter was in her 20s. Dad, we're going here. We're going there. And I always told her, man, it's all inclusive when dad comes in. So. Anyway, we will. And I. Thank you, Sage. Thank you.

[Sage Steele]

Oh, yeah, it's right. Hey, that street, Broadway, is right down the road. Let's. Let's go. Bring it in. Thank you, Dan. We'll talk soon.

[Dan Dakich]

All right. Thank you.