Who Will Cain Really Is | Sage Steele Show | EP 80

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Sage Steele Show

Episode: Who Will Cain Really Is (EP 80)
Air Date: November 5, 2025
Host: Sage Steele
Guest: Will Cain

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Overview

This episode of The Sage Steele Show features an in-depth, candid, and often humorous conversation with Will Cain—host of Fox News' “The Will Cain Show” and “Will Cain Country.” Sage and Will, longtime friends and former ESPN colleagues, explore Will's non-traditional path from small-town Texas, to water polo at Pepperdine, to entrepreneurship, journalism, cable news, and ultimately national television and podcasting. The episode delves deeply into formative experiences, family loss, career pivots, handling controversy, the evolution of media, and the importance of authenticity and faith—all punctuated by lighthearted moments and genuine mutual respect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ritual of the Show—Setting the Tone

• The episode begins playfully, with Sage’s tradition of making guests wear fuzzy socks. Will jokes about being a “barefoot” guy and remarks playfully on the effeminacy of socks, especially “floral” and “fuzzy” ones.
• Memorable Moment: Will reluctantly but sportingly takes part, highlighting their camaraderie.
  • “Now we've gone to another level.” (A, 03:18)

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2. Upbringing and Formative Years in Texas and Montana

• Will describes his childhood in Sherman, Texas, and his deep admiration for Western mythology and Steinbeck’s Travels with Charley.
• After law school, Will spent a year in Montana working on a ranch and writing an “unpublishable” novel.
• Life-Changing Event: During this period, Will’s father died by suicide—a deeply impactful event for Will and his family.
  • “That was the year I honestly turned from a boy to a man.” (B, 10:19)

Notable Quotes:

• “My dad killed himself when I was 25. My youngest brother was 15... I just never want to make that and my dad transactional...” (B, 13:40)
• Will learned “to start and finish a project,” citing the discipline of writing and working a ranch.
• He emphasizes the importance of action over rumination in healing and handling crisis.
• “Action and time is the path for moving forward.” (B, 17:02)

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3. Path to Media: Law, Journalism, and Entrepreneurial Detours

• Will and Sage compare their early career dreams and pivots. Will initially planned to be a small-town lawyer, inspired by his father, but was ultimately drawn to ideas and debate.
• Will’s unusual entry into media included buying and running small-town newspapers and launching a quinceañera magazine and events business (which eventually failed during the 2008-09 recession).
  • “For me, waking up every day thinking about 15-year-old Hispanic girls was not my passion... If it were, call the FBI.” (B, 32:10)
• Will's mantra: “I don’t take no from people that are not empowered to say yes.” (B, 39:44)

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4. Break into National TV: Fox, CNN, ESPN

• Will describes creating his own TV pilot, leveraging connections, and “cold-emailing” the President of CNN for an opportunity.
  • “It was a shot in the dark and it worked.” (B, 38:50)
• Sage and Will reflect on the pressure, adrenaline, and authenticity needed for TV, and Will's preparedness for televised debate.

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5. ESPN Years: Debate, Humility & Challenges

• Will discusses transitioning to ESPN, appearing on “First Take”, and squaring off with Stephen A. Smith.
  • “You were never pounding the table to try to get him to believe what you… It was just a straight-up challenge, and no one had ever done that.” (A, 44:09)
• Will emphasizes the show’s authenticity—debates weren’t contrived. He recalls heated moments, particularly on issues intersecting sports and race, but maintains he and colleagues like Stephen A. forged genuine friendships through these debates.
• Insight: Will notes that being cast as the “contrarian” sometimes branded him, overshadowing his more nuanced personality, as discussed with Ryan Russillo.

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6. On Controversy, Race, and Staying True to Values

• Will details internet/social media backlash, being labeled a “racist” at both CNN and ESPN for legalistic, nuanced views—especially surrounding cases like Trayvon Martin and Colin Kaepernick.
• Despite online hate, Will never considered softening or retreating:
  • “That’s been my only North Star… Be you. Be real.” (B, 58:07)
• Reflects on the different handling of internal bias and discipline at ESPN, particularly the shift after Trump’s election in 2016.
• Memorable Exchange on ESPN’s shift:
  • “When do you think ESPN turned?” (A, 61:54)
  • “Well, when Trump was elected president the first time, it turned everything over. Not just ESPN, everything…” (B, 62:07)

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7. Reflections on the Media Landscape & ESPN’s Decline

• Both express sadness for the loss of ESPN’s broad cultural appeal.
• Will notes ESPN, though still watched, “is not as relevant as it used to be.” (B, 74:36)
• Key insight: fragmentation of consumption—“the multitude of choices” diluting singular cultural platforms like ESPN.
• Sage and Will both lament the loss of ideological diversity and tolerance at the network.

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8. Authenticity, Loyalty, and Chemistry On-Air

• Will credits his late-in-life media break for helping him stay grounded and unaffected by “fame.”
• Discusses the genuine “lightning in a bottle” chemistry with Fox co-hosts Pete Hegseth and Rachel Campos-Duffy on “Fox & Friends Weekend.”
  • “Nothing like what I have with Pete… and Rachel.” (B, 84:01)

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9. Community, Giving Back, and the Hawaii Wildfire Relief

• Will’s personal connection to Hawaii—his mother was there during the Lahaina wildfires.
• He spearheaded a GoFundMe campaign raising $2.6 million, personally vetting recipients and distributing grants, saying it “changed me for the rest of my life.”
  • “That was the fulfillment of making this job really meaningful.” (B, 90:11)

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10. Faith, Family, and Legacy

• Will is humbled by his ability to do his show from Texas, thanks to Fox, restoring family/work-life balance and a deep connection to his roots.
  • “I am always and forever from Sherman, Texas.” (B, 102:00)
• On what he wants to be remembered for:
  • “I just want to be real… I want to be real with every person I interact with.” (B, 103:31)
• Sage compliments Will on his integrity and nontraditional, uncompromising career.

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11. Lighter Moments & Personal Oddities

• Will shares a colorful, step-by-step account of his life-long relationship with chewing tobacco, now replaced by nicotine “Zen” pouches—anecdotes offered self-deprecatingly, adding warmth and relatability to the episode. (80:00–82:34)
• Sage teases Will about Texas stereotypes, and Will delivers with gusto.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On handling personal tragedy:
  • “I just never want to make that and my dad transactional in this… even talking to you now, I don’t want you to feel sorry for me.” — Will (13:40)
• On debate and performance:
  • “You just can’t do this to try to be famous… The reason I did this is because I thought there was something missing in the conversation that I could provide.” — Will (24:06)
• On authenticity:
  • “That’s been my only North Star, my only guiding light. Be you. Be real.” — Will (58:07)
• On ESPN’s cultural decline:
  • “I don’t think it matters… It’s not as relevant as it used to be.” — Will (74:31)
• On the meaning of his career:
  • “I can’t just make money from it. I have to do more with the privilege and platform that I’ve been given.” — Will (90:11)
• On legacy:
  • “I just want to be real… I want to be real with every person I interact with.” — Will (103:31)

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Section Timestamps

• [00:00–03:30] — Playful intro, socks tradition
• [05:00–13:30] — Montana, family loss, transition to adulthood
• [18:40–24:00] — Water polo, Pepperdine, and handling humility through sports
• [24:45–33:47] — Law, small-town newspapers, business ventures, and pivotal failures
• [35:30–41:18] — Breaking into TV, CNN and Fox, authenticity on air
• [44:09–49:06] — ESPN First Take, debate culture, handling identity and controversy
• [54:02–64:06] — Facing race, controversy, ESPN’s political turn
• [75:24–84:26] — Fox & Friends chemistry, and the challenges of creating authentic TV ensembles
• [86:29–90:56] — Lahaina wildfires, humanitarian work, and the deeper fulfillment of public platform
• [95:37–98:45] — On media bias, Fox vs. CNN, objectivity and honesty
• [100:43–102:00] — Coming home to Texas, meaning of roots and hometown honor
• [103:26–105:36] — Closing reflections on legacy, authenticity, and gratitude

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in open, reflective podcast conversation. Will Kane’s journey is equal parts rugged individualism, intellectual ambition, and heartfelt service. Sage’s deeply informed and empathetic questioning draws out Will’s lesser-known stories, guiding the discussion with humor and heart. Listeners are left with a rich portrait of perseverance, a commitment to truth and loyalty, and the value of staying real—even (perhaps especially) in the pressure-cooker world of modern media.

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Transcript

[A]

I love it when I get to sit down with a friend on my own show and then learn so much more about this friend than I ever could have imagined. And that is exactly what happened today with my friend Will Kane, star of the Will Kane show on Fox News and Will Kane country wherever you get your podcasts. Here's the thing. Yes, he's the host of a nationally televised show. He's so successful. But his journey to get here, incredible. From a star water polo player at Pepperdine, from a small town in Texas, to selling newspapers and becoming an expert on quinceaneras. Yeah. That's how Will Kane got to where he is today, along with his journey at ESPN at the same time I was there. We have a lot of good stories that we shared on this, and he also went very deep on things, quite personal, things he has really never talked about before. It meant the world to me to see a different side of Will Kane, one that I know that you're going to love and enjoy as much as I did. Will Kane, the star of today's Sage Steele show. It's the stage show. I cannot. Okay, on that note, we're gonna bring it down since I know that Will Kane has never watched my show. Like, if you had, you would have come in without your fancy shoes on.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because you know that, like, I make you put on.

[B]

Okay, so first of all, incorrect. I have watched your shows.

[A]

Have you noticed that even RFK Jr took his shoes off?

[B]

It is like I sat there and said, if I'm ever on Sage's show, do I have to wear. Wear the fuzzy socks? And then I saw you around here today, and I was like, she forgot the fuzzy socks. She hasn't mentioned the shoes. And I was like, I'll just get to wear my shoes. And somebody see. Cause I watch. Did refuse. Somebody refused to put on the.

[A]

Do you remember who it was?

[B]

It was a man.

[A]

It was definitely a man. Women aren't that.

[B]

I don't remember who it was that refused.

[A]

Matt Walsh.

[B]

Matt Walsh refused to put on the socks. Yes.

[A]

He was really weird about it, and it was so funny. I had never met him and always, of course, admired him. And he walked in, and I was like, you know, leave those on. He's like, yeah, this is my thing. And I'm like, but this is my thing, and this is my show. And then I was like, well, when you're home, don't you take your shoes off? He's like, never. I'm like, ew, I'm judging you completely now because he leaves his big old boots on even upstairs in bedrooms. And I'm like, I think that's foul. I would divorce you based on that.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm not gonna be so proud as to keep my shoes on now.

[A]

I am giving you options. Very impressed by the socks.

[B]

American flag socks.

[A]

Very impressed by the socks. I'm gonna give you. Go ahead.

[B]

Do you. But do you. First of all, I don't wear socks around the house. I don't like.

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

I'm not a socks.

[A]

You don't wear shoes around the house?

[B]

No, I'm a barefoot person.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

I don't like slips sliding around. I find socks effeminate, especially fuzzy socks, so.

[A]

Well, that's why I thought that these floral ones would be perfect for you. Like, they're kind of like curly, cute at the top.

[B]

Okay, but.

[A]

Or you can have the.

[B]

And I'm not going to put on over these socks because that's just going to be hot.

[A]

So there's just solid. It's kind of baby blue.

[B]

Which.

[A]

Look, it matches your shirt.

[B]

Which ones? Ever. Which ones?

[A]

Who loves you?

[B]

I would put on the flower socks.

[A]

I mean, you would, but. But what I'm going to call these.

[B]

Match.

[A]

All right. I'm going to match you, too. Here we go. Thank you, Will. This was a real test we have now, officially, after 10 years of knowing each other, now we've gone to another level.

[B]

Is that right? It's a different level. This is where they are very comfy.

[A]

I will say you're welcome. And now we're going to let it flow. Okay, I have a couple things to bring up with you.

[B]

Okay, fine.

[A]

These. Speaking of shoes and socks, these I want everybody to know we're just sitting back here on this beautiful set. Are they actually yours? Like you've worn them?

[B]

These are actually mine, yes. So whatever you want to talk about.

[A]

We are in Texas. And Will's from Texas.

[B]

Yes, but these were my Montana boots. So you said to me, you asked me, are you a real cowboy? And my answer is no, I'm a play cowboy. But for one year of my life, I was kind of a real cowboy. So I moved to Montana after law school, and I wanted to write the great American novel. And I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to devote time to writing a novel, I want to live somewhere that I've always wanted to live. And that I think is amazing. And I tell this story, so I'm gonna tell it to you as well. You grow up in Texas and you're my age, you worship the novel and the miniseries Lonesome Dove, which starred Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duvall. Gus. And call two Texas rangers that drove a cattle herd up to Montana. And then I read Travels with Charlie by John Steinbeck. And John Steinbeck wrote a book that he suggested. He rode around the country in an RV with his dog Charlie. And they visited state, state, state, state. We now know that Steinbeck made up the book a lot. He actually didn't do it, but he gets to Montana and he says if you met a boy, a 10 year old boy from Washington D.C. who had never been to Texas, to describe Texas, what he would in reality describe is Montana. So when I graduated law school and I didn't want to quite grow up, I thought, well, I want to go to Montana. If that's what Texas is supposed to be, I want to go to Montana. So I went to Montana. I worked on a ranch, a hunting outfitter. We took hunters back into the mountains to hunt elk, sheep, and we had mules and we had horses. And these were the boots that I wore when I was a horse. I was on horseback almost every day.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And these are real boots. This is. Let me show you. This is shark skin. The reason it's shark skin is you can feel how tough it is. So that when you put your spurs. Right. So when you put your spurs on, it doesn't break the leather. That is a riding heel.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So that when you put your feet into a stirrup, you know, if you. You don't slip through. First of all, that's the point of a heel.

[A]

Of a heel. Yes.

[B]

You don't slip through.

[A]

You know, you're talking to an expert horsewoman here. Oh, keep going. English jumper.

[B]

Fancy. So anyway. Yeah, that's a.

[A]

They're beautiful.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

They're really beautiful. Thank you. I feel like they need to be. David, does this, like, mess with my shot or your shot in the background with all the metals? I just kind of love it if it does. David's like, no, take them down. Fine, fine, fine, fine. Super cool. I have no idea. What did you learn? What did you learn living on a ranch, being in Montana for a year?

[B]

I actually learned a lot. Sage. It was a very, very formative year in my life. So first of all, it's a complicated year. First of all, I learned how to start and finish a project. I wrote that novel. And every day that I wasn't working on the ranch, I was writing. And just the process of sitting down and committing yourself to putting your thoughts onto paper, getting it done from page one to the end product, and then going through the editing process. I'm proud that you'll never see the novel. No one will because it's probably garbage. But at least I feel like it's garbage. So you'll never see it.

[A]

Where is it?

[B]

Oh, it's collecting dust at the top of some. Some closet.

[A]

Well, yeah, you have to do that even if it's just for your boys.

[B]

No. What do you mean no?

[A]

Are there some, some incriminating things?

[B]

No, but they just the immature unfinished thoughts of a 24, 25 year old.

[A]

Which is beautiful, especially compared to 25 years later.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe.

[A]

I mean, even if you have to.

[B]

You watch yourself on camera.

[A]

I don't. And I should.

[B]

I hate it. I don't either.

[A]

I hate it because all I'm going to see is the bad.

[B]

Well, I mean, despite the fact that we're on television. Look, most people do what we do for a living are narcissists. And that means they have huge egos layered on top of a mountain of insecurity. I don't think I'm a narcissist, but I'll tell you this. I don't like watching myself on television. I feel like, wow, you're not very good at this. So I'd rather live in the delusion that what I'm doing is good. Then see that I'm not. Yes, yes, but back to Montana.

[A]

So are you going to give me your word that you'll consider sending this thing to print?

[B]

That's an easy contractual obligation. I will consider.

[A]

I know I would be a terrible attorney, wouldn't I? I just think it'd be super cool. Especially when you're. I mean, this sounds terrible and morbid, but you're not going to be here forever. And for someone else, for your kids, your grandkids like to see your evolution would be really special.

[B]

I do want to write and I want to write something and I should because everybody at Fox is a best selling author. But I just don't have that thing yet that I'm completely passionate about that I want to commit to writing. And it will have something to do with history, most likely. I love history and I will return to writing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Montana though. I was telling you it was a formative, formative year in my life. So first of all, I was taken in by this family. I moved up there. I didn't know where I was going. I just thought, I'm going north. I loaded up My dog. And I knew a guy who was living outside of Missoula, so I thought maybe I'll just point my truck north in his direction. And I did. And when I got up there, I just looked in the classifieds. Remember the classifieds?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of like the Missoulian newspaper. And I found a cabin for rent. And I ended up renting a cabin from an 80 year old woman. I had a Doberman. I still have Doberman, but he was my first dog. That was my dog. I got him when I was 20 or 21. And she called me back and said, oh, my son said I can't rent my cabin to a Doberman. A guy who's a good Doberman. I'm like, well, you gotta meet my dog. And he was incredible. I mean, I could tell him, we're going in, sit, stay. He was perfect. And she fell in love with him. She rented her cabin to meet her son, who was probably in his 50s at that time, ended up hiring me to work at his ranch and hunting outfitter. And those people to this day are some of the closest people. We don't talk as much as we used to and I regret that, but they have such a soft, warm spot in my heart. For everything I did, those relationships, everything I did up there are the most valuable to me. And it's only punctuated by the fact that at the end of that year, my father died and I was living in Montana and working a ranch and finding myself and writing the great American novel. I'm the oldest of four and the youngest of us was still in high school. And so it was time to grow up overnight. And I came home and I really started my career and came home to be around my brother for a while. And it was just. That was the year I honestly turned from a boy to a man.

[A]

You had no choice. What did your dad think of you running off to Montana?

[B]

Oh, he thought it was cool. I mean, yeah, he. My dad was a. A unique guy. I mean, he was a small town attorney an hour north of here in Sherman, Texas. He was wild. You go home, people tell stories about my dad. I saw the stories as well. But he was so smart, such a good trial attorney, arguer and. But he had this huge adventurous spirit. Yeah. And he came and visited me a few months before he died. He came and visited me up in Montana and saw me in my first time in my life. I wasn't a student, right. Yeah, I was, yeah, A college student, then a law student, which he loved that I was going to law school.

[A]

Following his footsteps. Was that intentional?

[B]

Yeah, probably so. I don't know about you. I majored in broadcast journalism, so I thought this is what I wanted to do. I mean, if I'm being honest, I thought, I want to be Bob Costas. Like, my two big influences in my life were my father, as I've described, and my mother and I would wake up every morning and we would eat our Honey Nut Cheerios while she had the Today show on. And I would watch Matt Lauer and Katie Couric. And, you know, I'm sure somewhere in there I thought, this is. This is what I want to do, you know, But I want to do it in sports mostly. And. And so I majored in broadcast journalism at Pepperdine, and I hated it. I didn't hate it, but I was like, I don't want to do this because it felt like learning how to be an actor. Like, can you read a teleprompter? Can you perform Fake. Yeah, exactly. And I didn't like the fake. So I'd say, my junior, senior year of college, I started thinking, nah, I'm going to go to law school. And it was always in the back of my mind, like, I'll be a. I was going to be a small town lawyer. Wow.

[A]

Like your dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can I ask, though, because I didn't know about the passing of your father. I mean, he was young.

[B]

He was.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it sudden?

[B]

He was 55. It was sudden, yes.

[A]

How did you handle that from across the country?

[B]

It was very tough. I don't ever talk about this. Sage said she wanted to get deep.

[A]

And she was gonna do this stuff.

[B]

She wanted to get to know me.

[A]

I didn't know about that. Shame on me for not knowing.

[B]

No, you don't. There's no shame. I don't talk about it a lot. And it's weird, Sage. It came up in my personal life this week, and I don't. So my dad killed himself when I was 25. My youngest brother was 15. I've got another brother who would have been 22, and a sister who would have been 18, freshman year in college. And I don't talk about it a lot, but the reason I don't talk about it is because I never. It's very in vogue to use your trauma as a identifier or a way to connect. And I didn't. I just never want to make that and my dad transactional in this. Do you know what I mean by that? Like, in this career, I don't want that to be something that, like, even talking to you now, I don't want you to feel sorry for me. I don't want anyone to, you know, and I don't. It's just. And so I'm telling you because it's true. It came up this week because there's a family here in Dallas with four kids, and they're going through the exact same thing. And, you know, I want to talk to that oldest son because I know what just happened in his life.

[A]

Makes sense about having to grow up right away. But you're a baby essentially, at that age, still at 25, and then feels like had to take over that man role, that fatherly role, especially because you came home in particular to be there for your. For your younger brother. So you're trying to fill that role a little bit, but then deal with that at the same time.

[B]

Yeah. I remember people saying, I think Will's angry. Like, I'm worried he's angry, and I wasn't angry. I mean, I'm going through whatever emotions I'm going through, but, you know, I can't speak for anybody else, but the way I deal with crisis is action. It's just the way I deal with it. And so it's like, what needs to be done? What's next? How do we move forward? How do we. You know, you still have to take the time to grieve, but there's. When somebody dies, there's a lot to be done. Like, there's a lot of work that has to get done. And so I threw myself into that. I wound up his law practice, you know, worked with my mom on her future finances and things like that. But, you know, you say I was a baby, and you're right. I mean, you're describing me. I was finding myself in Montana. But I think about guys that go off to war at 18. I think about people that get jobs, real jobs, right away, and we all have to grow up. And I think I was privileged in the fact that it didn't hit me in the face until I was 25.

[A]

Do you think you've fully dealt with it?

[B]

I do. I do. Yeah. I don't know. You never know. I don't. I'm happy. Like, I was just with some of my buddies this weekend in East Texas. We were watching the Longhorns lose to Florida.

[A]

And I always think of you when Texas loses and wins, but loses in particular.

[B]

And, you know, it's. Guys don't do that. These are lifelong friends, though. Guys don't do this often. And somebody started asking Me, even about our career. Like, but are you happy? And he's asking it almost skeptically, and I'm like, no, man, I'm really happy. Like, I feel productive. I feel I get to be in the state that I want to be in doing my career. I don't think I've got anything very deep, even on this subject.

[A]

That's incredible because you hear about that unfortunately, more and more now. Mental health is finally discussed so much more than it ever was before. To me, the turning point, I think you were still at espn, we both were. When Kevin Love really came out. Started talking about mental health and being very, very depressed. So it's good, it's progress that we've made that people are talking about it more, I guess. But unless you've been through it, I.

[B]

Feel a little mixed on that. Really, I do. We definitely have a mental health crisis, but then we get into the why, you know, and look, just because that's how it worked for me doesn't mean that's how it's gonna work for everybody else. And I'm not gonna be able to quote the people that have said this, but they've said it much more eloquently than me that, you know, like, the best thing to do is to stop thinking about yourself, almost stop thinking about your thoughts. I know that's not the modern day therapy mindset.

[A]

It's the opposite. Right?

[B]

It's the opposite. But it's like I believe in self awareness, but maybe not quite as much. Self reflection. Self reflection is important when you're looking at your own actions and your. And your judgment. But to constantly ruminate, that's the word I'm looking for. Rumination, I think, is the source of a lot of troubled thoughts, where, at least for men, I think action is the path to healing. I really do. Action and time is the path for moving forward.

[A]

Quite often I think it can easily slide into, yes, action. And let's make ourselves super, super busy and not think about any of that and just dive into the point where you're ignoring some things. I agree with you. It's a fine line. We grew up kind of the same time and it's like, no, you're tough. You pick yourself up by the bootstraps and you keep going. Right. What is that middle of the road thing, especially as a parent, where you don't want your boys in particular to feel like they can't talk about things. But action. Get to work.

[B]

Yeah. I never been to therapy in my life. I don't know what that's like, I have a wonderful wife who was my girlfriend at the time and became within a couple years my fiance. And I talked to her all the time. So in a way, maybe she is my therapist. You know, I don't know. We talk about everything together. So I don't know. I can't speak to the value of that entire exercise. I don't think it was necessary for me.

[A]

How did this youngster from Sherman, Texas, end up at Pepperdine in Malibu, California? Yeah, because I know, and I know water polo, you're a stud athlete. But, hi. I mean, I mean, you had your choice because Pepperdine's an incredible school as well, but Malibu will. With your cowboy boots.

[B]

So. Right. Small town kid from Texas, first of all, thinking the whole world is way out there, far beyond your reach. Right. It's not in, you know, a few miles down the road in Gunner or Van Alstein or Bells or any of the towns around Sherman. And it wasn't even in Dallas, which was an hour away. It's like the world is way out there where everything's happening. And in our age range, I will say, it felt like everything was happening in California.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

I don't know if you felt that way, but I did. Movies, music, pop culture. It felt like, you know, I didn't grow up thinking about New York. I just. But LA Sunshine and LA was where it was happening. And, you know, and so I romanticized California, thought that I wanted to go out there. I applied to USC and Pepperdine and then some schools outside of California. And so I had my heart pretty set. And by the way, it's fascinating how that's changed. California does not maintain that same place of aspiration in our, you know, generalized.

[A]

American culture, even for kids. And my kids are 19 to 23 even. They're like, why would anybody intentionally go to California? Now it is completely flipped. And it's sad.

[B]

Those California kids are coming here to Texas. They're going to TCU and to smu, and they're going to Georgia and Auburn. And these Texas kids, when they go out of state, they don't think about California. They think about Georgia and Auburn, but that's not the way it was. And so I remember I thought I'd go to USC because I'm a big football fan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was Rodney, Pete.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And before that, it was Marcus Allen. And before my time, it was O.J. simpson. But, I mean, it was USC, but I visited USC and Pepperdine on the same day.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

And my dad didn't even get the debate because, like, you know, USC's in. In Watts. It's behind security gates. And Pepperdine's in Malibu.

[A]

Yes. You know, on the cliff overlooking the ocean.

[B]

I don't get the debate. What's the debate? And they were playing each other in water polo that day, and Pepperdine had just won the national championship in baseball. And the entire baseball team was on the deck heckling the USC goalie. And I thought, that's pretty cool.

[A]

That is cool.

[B]

And so ultimately, I did get an academic scholarship to go to Pepperdine. So that's why I went.

[A]

Okay. How. When did you begin playing water polo in Sherman, Texas?

[B]

About when I got to Malibu.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, I grew up a swimmer. The story my mom tells is she couldn't swim. And she was embarrassed when she was a kid, and she would go and the other kids could swim, and she was embarrassed. She's like, my kids will never deal with that embarrassment. So we were in infant swim. Like, you know, they would take the little babies and make them swim, all that. And then I started competitively swimming at, like, age 6 or 7. And so I swam from that through age 18. I was good. I wasn't great, but pretty good. I still do it to this day, but I wanted to play a ball sport. I'm a sports fan. Basketball, football, everything. I'm like, well, maybe you take your swimming ability and you walk onto the water polo team. And I trained in Dallas. There's a club here in Dallas. I trained a little bit. And let me be very clear, Pepperdine was very welcoming on its walk on program. It wasn't like, all of a sudden, they found this gym out of Texas that had never played water polo before. But check him out. It was, no, he gets to be on the team. And I was on the team all four years. Proud of myself for not quitting. Seriously? Yeah, because that was an internal struggle. Because it's. I went from, you know, big fish, small pond to low man on the totem pole. And that's a whole, like, exercise in learning how to accept that in some ways, like, accept that humility. And this is the way. And what are you going to do? You going to quit because you're not great? You're going to quit because you're low man on the totem pole? Or are you going to grind and stay with it? I scored one goal in four years. Four years.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And I gave.

[A]

So you were great defensively, right?

[B]

I gave him hook em horns.

[A]

Of course you did. That's amazing. We need video evidence of that.

[B]

It's on via choice.

[A]

Is it really? You have to take it to some store to dub it down for real proof. But that is so true. That's the beauty of sports, right, is, is you can be the super bowl champion one day, and then the very next game, look what happens. Right? I mean, you could be the one. The reason why somebody loses a game. So I wonder, based on that earlier conversation here, if that humility is what has allowed you to really maintain your humility throughout this real growth in your career.

[B]

No, thank you.

[A]

Wonder.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. There's things baked into your question that I'm trying to. Am I humble? I hope so.

[A]

You are?

[B]

I hope so. You know, one of the things that I think helps me in this career is like, this all kind of happened later in life for me. You know, I got to ESPN at age 40.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was at CNN before that for five years, so about 30, 35. And that's really kind of when I started on this TV career. And then it. It's not an overnight success. Like, it, you know, I've been doing this for 15 years. Whatever fame is, you know, like, if I'm getting there, it. It's happened later in life. And so I'm just the same, I'd like to think the same guy that I've been through my whole life. And I don't know. I had this conversation with a college kid the other day, and I'm like, she asked me about this. I'm like, well, you just can't do this to try to be famous. You can't do this even to be on tv. The reason I did this when I first started doing this is because I thought there was something missing in the conversation that I could provide. It didn't matter, like, are you gonna have this show or that show or whatever. It was just like, I want to do this. I want to have this conversation that I feel like is missing. And we'll see where it takes me.

[A]

Which began in politics at cnn.

[B]

It did.

[A]

And then transitioned to sports, now back to politics. So let's start at the beginning of that, but before that, even, because you went to law school, you came back home, hook em. You got. You finally got to ut.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And got that law degree.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And did what exactly?

[B]

Right after law school, moved to Montana, took the bar exam. Had to get that out of the way.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then moved to Montana.

[A]

And you did that successfully first time?

[B]

Yes, first time.

[A]

Okay. And then the Montana situation, coming Back home. But as far as practicing law. And that was at your dad's firm? Yeah, right. How long did that last?

[B]

That was one year. One year. Closing up his law practice, finishing up my novel and beginning to think about what it is I want to do as a career outside of writing. And so when I was in Montana, I also read a ton. And I read, first of all, a lot of books about Warren Buffett, the investor, who I respect a lot. And I read the biography of a man named Al Newharth who started. He was the CEO of Gannett, which was a huge newspaper company. And then he started USA Today. And I always remember this line from that book. Newharth said, I wish for my children one great failure before the age of 30, because it's easier to recover if you don't ever fail. You never pushed it hard enough. And if you do it before you're 30, it's much easier to recover from failure than afterwards. And I had learned about, through Buffett and Newharth, the newspaper industry. So I moved to the hill country of Texas. I got a job working $19,000 a year. All my buddies were lawyers making six figures. And I literally delivered the newspapers, covered city council, covered the high school football game, put the labels on the news.

[A]

I did everything, delivered the newspapers.

[B]

Yeah, this is a small town weekly newspaper in Llano, Texas. And then they gave me my own newspaper. These guys that own these, this group of newspapers, they gave me my own in Johnson City, home of Lyndon Baines Johnson to. Then I'm writing the articles. I'm like the publisher and editor. I mean, I had a staff of like three, so it was like us putting the newspaper together. But I was doing this to learn, and I knew that I wanted to buy my own, so I moved back again to Sherman and I bought two newspapers north of Dallas, small town weeklies, and started two others.

[A]

That's a big deal.

[B]

Yep. Yeah, well, I mean, that was a more achievable entrepreneurial thing to do than like, I mean, buying a radio station. That's like an FCC licensed deal, that's expensive. But you, you know, you can buy a small town newspaper. And I did. And I did well with them. I did that for about three years along with my then wife now. And we worked together. She sold ads. I did everything else. We had some writers and things like that. And then at the end of three years, I sold that newspaper group to a larger newspaper group. And it was a good lick.

[A]

Oh, my goodness, I had no idea about that. So the entrepreneurial which is always a word that I can never say. Entrepreneurial side of. Of Will Kane, along with the legal aspect of it. What's that journey then? To get to tv. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, there's a couple more stops. Okay. So then I decided, when I went into being like a media entrepreneur, I decided there was three niches that I was interested in. People were already saying the print is dying. So I said, okay, there's three niches that I've identified that I want to be involved in. Number one, the Latino business. Number two, the small town growth path newspapers, where the population was booming and Dallas is booming north. And number three, I liked, and I never did one of these, but these, like weekly free newspapers in big urban environments.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're all liberal, by the way, like the Village Voice, the Dallas observer, you know, they're super liberal. But I did the first two. So the second thing I did was my wife is from West Texas. Now, growing up in North Texas, we didn't have a lot of Latinos growing up. My wife in West Texas did. And I saw the booming population for Latinos. And I keep using that word specifically because Hispanic is a government census created term. And that's important because it takes Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Chileans, Argentinians, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, and treats them all the same, this one group of people, Hispanics. And it also takes the brand new either legal or illegal immigrant and the third or fourth generation Latino and makes them the same.

[A]

Wow, I didn't know that.

[B]

And so think about it, like Hispanic. What does that mean? Well, all those people are looped together and they're not the same. In the Caribbean, they like baseball. In Latin America, they like soccer. In acculturated. Latinos have a different life than somebody who just came over here, including what they eat. So I was like, what can I identify that's truly common to all of those ethnicities? And because of my wife's influence, I found out about the quinceanera. Do you know what a quinceanera is?

[A]

The 15th, like the birthday party thing.

[B]

Yeah. And by the way, I was getting married at the time. This was in that range my wife would bring home. I remember she brought home this magazine called the Knot. And the Knot was like this thick and it was all ads. And I was like, man, they are. They're printing money with all those ads. And I was like. And because the ads are the content, like you can. You may have picked up the knot because you're looking at the dresses.

[A]

Exactly. Wedding stuff.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like a quinceanera looks like a wedding. It's the same thing.

[A]

So I created those dresses are massive and colorful and beautiful.

[B]

And they have a court that's like groomsmen and bridesmaids. It's caballeros and damas. And so I created a magazine, event company and a website to help young girls plan their quinceanera. No, you and I raised money from a hedge fund and we, we. And then. Yeah. Launched a national magazine. Yeah.

[A]

Does it still exist?

[B]

No. So I launched that magazine. It was great. I got a lot of coverage. It was on Univision, the Today show, all this stuff we did. Had a lot of great victories. I went to Bentonville, pitched Walmart, got district, got distribution in Walmart. That's huge. By the way, you ever heard about the notorious Bentonville pitches? You got to go into Walmart because getting back in the day, getting your product on the shelves at Walmart is huge.

[A]

Yes. And I thought, what year is this?

[B]

This is 08.08.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, 0708.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And got it on the shelves at Walmart and 09 comes in. 09. We have a recession. Okay. Now, first of all, let me just say as an entrepreneur, I made plenty of my own mistakes. But when you do a tight niche like this, the good thing is you're insulated from the big guys, the Telemundos and the Univisions of the world. They're not going to come after you. They're hopefully going to buy you one day. Right. But the bad thing is when you have a tight niche in a downturned economy, you don't have a lot of cushion. So the long story is that business failed. And so I had made money and succeeded on the newspapers, I had lost money and failed on the quinceanera business. And so now I was sitting there. Back to that thing I said about you have that great failure in your life.

[A]

4:30.

[B]

And I'm sitting there, I'm over 30 at this point. And I sit there and I go, okay, listen, I trust myself to figure out how to make money. I trust myself in business. But what I know that I need to do is wake up every day passionate about what I do. I'll figure out how to make money at it. And for me, waking up every day thinking about 15 year old Hispanic girls was not my passion. And I make that joke and say if it were, call the FBI.

[A]

Yes, exactly. We have bigger issues.

[B]

So yeah, quinceaneras just didn't do it for me. From a Wake up every day and care about it. And I thought, but you know, what does and always has is ideas and philosophy and debate. And John McCain was running against Barack Obama for president at the time. And I'd wake up and I watched Morning Joe a lot back then and I saw what they were doing and I saw the debate the country was having and I thought, it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit the moment. I thought Barack Obama, even from the beginning, represented a huge philosophical shift for America. And I still believe that to this day. It was a massive lurch left for the left and for the country. He represented a vision of government and a relationship of the citizen to the government that we had not yet experienced. And I was like, I need to dive in. So what I did not to monologue on my life story is I never asked for a job. Sage. So I produced a TV pilot. I was like, I was living in New York. We had moved to New York only because we wanted to live in New York. We went up on a six month lease and we were like, you gotta live in New York before you die.

[A]

So that six months before you have kids and all that.

[B]

And I ended up having my kids in New York and stayed for 15 years. But I rented a restaurant. I had this vision. There was a show called Dinner for Five. You ever see it?

[A]

No.

[B]

Jon Favreau, the actor and director, it was kind of awesome. He would get this random collection of people over dinner. He had Bill Maher, Kid Rock, just this eclectic group of people, Vince Vaughn. And they would just talk, talk about anything. Their careers, their life, their ideas. It was super decompressed. And I was like, this is interesting. I like this. What if I did this with real ideas? And so I booked this restaurant on the Upper west side, Barney Greengrass. And I booked the talent, I hired the camera crew, I moderated the show. On that show was Chris Hayes, who now has a PrimeTime show on MSNBC. And a guy named Kevin Williamson, who is a brilliant writer and was with for a long time National Review. And so that's that. I did that. And then I learned nobody in TV buys a pilot. So yeah, all it did though is lead me to a relationship with National Review through Kevin. And I started doing video content for National Review early on. This is early on in the video age of online content, right? And they didn't have any money, they couldn't pay me. So I said, introduce me to everybody, you know, in tv. That's how you'll pay me. I did it for like a year for free. Not even Just for free. I paid for it. And they introduced me to Bill Shine, who was the number two at FOX @ the time.

[A]

He was a good man.

[B]

And Bill and I hit it off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he put me on my first ever television appearance, which was Fox and Friends Weekend, the show I would host 10, 10 years later.

[A]

What did he bring you on as National Review contributor? Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. That's amazing. So do you remember your thoughts that day?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Walking into those studios?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Avenue of the Americas, 12 hours.

[B]

I remember several things. It was my first time on TV in a studio. Yeah, absolutely. And it was in person in the building. Like you're talking about 1211 Avenue of the Americas. And I remember going in and sitting down and it's like getting strapped into a spaceship. You feel like the first time like they put the IFB on you and put the pack on and they mic you up and sit John. They put these lights that are all coming on. They're like looking at that look at that camera and you're like, okay, okay. And I remember they were in studio and I was in studio. So like they were over there on the couch. Right. But I had to look at him through the camera. And I just remember all the external stimulus of like, how do I have my thoughts and all of this going on? And I see it sometimes if I get a young person on my show, I can see when they're feeling all of that.

[A]

And then it's our job at that moment totally to make them feel comfortable, tell a joke, compliment them, whatever. Because we know I'll never forget those days either. The very first time. I mean, do you remember how you did?

[B]

I must did all right. They asked me back.

[A]

This is an attorney we're speaking to as well. But for that to be your first time ever is scary. I mean, I think how I would have thought in that position.

[B]

That's a.

[A]

That's a big deal. Yeah.

[B]

And we talked about our paths and so mine's very non traditional, right?

[A]

Very.

[B]

There's no like local market experience, no warm up at bats.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

This is.

[A]

That's huge. But you liked that adrenaline rush, didn't you?

[B]

Like what I did?

[A]

That feeling when you were done, like, what did you think?

[B]

Yeah, I liked it. I liked it. And then I remember not long after that, sitting on the couch and having a debate with a lefty. And I really liked that. Like just like they say what they have to say and then I'm like, no, you know, just the chess match. Of the argument. I loved it. And I did it for free at Fox for a long time. I did Hannity's Great American panel. I did Fox and Friends. And I did it in order to create a reel, a series of clips. And then I took that reel, and one night I guessed at the email address of the president of cnn. And I guessed at it because everybody's email address is formulaic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, first initial for anybody watching. I don't check my company address, so if you get mine off of this, I won't see it. But it is first name, dot, last name @ Turner. Com. That's what it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I imagine espn. It's first name, dot, last name at espn.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I sent an email with the clip and I had a simple line. It just said, you need somebody like me over there. And he responded within 15 minutes. You're right. Come see me.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Will Kane. I had no idea. Yeah, that's real. Is that's your resume tape. It doesn't matter the piece of paper you type up or where you've been or what you're doing, that you're an attorney. Great. How are you when the camera turns on and within 15 seconds, that person needs to like you. Which is what makes this business so difficult, I think, in many ways, because it's so subjective. It depends on who looks at that. In my case, VHS tape from way back in the day, you know, versus a link or an actual. I don't know, I guess it evolved to a Betamax and who knows after that? Right. But the fact that you got an email back so fast, I mean, look.

[B]

It was a shot in the dark and it worked. The lesson that I took away from that, that I share with young people is I don't take no from people that are not empowered to say yes. That's my lesson. I always go to the person who is empowered to say yes. If I get a no from them. Okay. You know, and I'll. Mark Cuban once said that, you know, business is not an efficiency game, it's a volume game. Right. We're sports fans, like Antoine Walker. I think it was around Antoine Walker. Remember Antoine Walker? Yes. Boston Celtic and then a Dallas Maverick. And Antoine was a volume shooter. And he said that he goes, I'm a volume shooter. Well, volume shooting doesn't really work in basketball, but it works in life. You just keep shooting. And it works in business and entrepreneurship. You keep shooting. And if I'd have gotten a no from John Klein. His name was John Klein, the president of cnn. Okay. But I wasn't gonna take a no from somebody who couldn't say yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And most people in corporate America are empowered to say no, but they actually don't have the power to say yes. So I was just gonna go, the person that had the power to say yes.

[A]

And how soon was it till you got on CNN airwaves?

[B]

So that just got me in the door. That's all that did. And then I did a pilot. They brought me in, had a meeting. They liked me in the meeting or whatever, and they put me on a pilot for a brand new show they were launching with Elliot Spitzer, the former governor of New York. Do you remember him?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Prostitution scandal. And Kathleen Parker, who was a Washington Post conservative columnist. They were getting a show that a group of us come in and they wanted to do a little bit of a roundtable panel with two hosts. And I'm sorry for the lack of humility. I crushed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I went out there on that pilot and I knew it. I crushed it. And he liked me, I liked him. We had a tough debate and I walked out of there thinking, yeah, I got it. So. And I did. They signed me right there. Five years. Five years. Three years. Three years. Something like that. I stayed for five.

[A]

So you got an extension? Yeah, basically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was the debate format.

[B]

It was.

[A]

It was the debate moderator.

[B]

And then the lesson from that is, I say, like, you know the whole thing about seeing the email to President, CNN and all that, okay, great. All that did is get me in the door. And then you get your. What that means is now you're at the plate, right? You get a shot, you're in the bigs. Here's your cup of coffee. What are you gonna do with the plate? I just happened to have a good at bat in that. In that pilot.

[A]

Happened to. Fine. You were prepared.

[B]

Yeah, I was prepared.

[A]

You knew the task at hand.

[B]

And I wasn't intimidated. That's the main thing I have always had. I appreciate you saying I have humility. I hope I do, on my ego. But the things that aren't attached to my ego, I have a lot of confidence in. Like, I wasn't intimidated by Stephen A. Smith exactly. Like, ever, like my first day. Because it's not about me, it's about what I have to say. And I'm really confident in what I have to say. And so I was confident. I wasn't a bundle of nerves or anything like that.

[A]

When you're prepared, I mean, it's okay to have adrenaline. I do Think there's a difference. Adrenaline, anticipation versus nerves and butterflies. Because that is going to affect your performance. It is a performance to an extent. I've told you this before. I've reminded you of this before, I think. But I believe we're in New York City and I believe we were there maybe for ESPN upfronts.

[B]

I remember.

[A]

And you were on an escalator, going down, and I was going up or just off the escalator, and I was like, that's Will Kane. And I'd been at ESPN at that point for eight years. I think this is 2015. Right when you started 16, probably.

[B]

Somewhere in there. Yeah.

[A]

And I was such a fan immediately. I had no idea what your politics were and didn't care.

[B]

You didn't?

[A]

No, I didn't. At the beginning. No. You were making. It was common sense.

[B]

I knew you were somehow. Somehow I knew yours.

[A]

No, at that point, I was quiet.

[B]

It may not have been. I remember. I remember the escalator and I remember giving you a hug. We never met before. I'm like, I went up.

[A]

I was like, I was so proud of you for coming in, but go ahead.

[B]

You said something to me, but I knew. I knew we were some pattico.

[A]

I actually think I alluded to it in that hello.

[B]

Maybe it was in that hello.

[A]

It was in the hello.

[B]

It was something I knew we were sympatic of.

[A]

Yes, it was in that hello. And I don't think I blatantly said, you know, Republican, conservative, whatever, because that's never how I led, despite what people think. I never led with that. Cause it actually doesn't matter. No, you didn't like it. Just even today, I know that that's how people like to corner us. And then certainly you say certain things that you say. You put your MAGA hat on like I did at the Madison Square Garden rally a year ago. You know, you work for Fox News. Like, at some point, it's kind of over. It's kind of out there. Right. But at that moment, I admired you because you walked into that First Take studio and you just told it like it was and gave common sense arguments or just, you know, you played that opposite role and it's like, well, no. Did you think about this, Stephen A. And not one other person since I had started at that network when it went from cold pizza to first take in 2007. And I was there in the studio for all those years watching it with Skip Bayless there. And then bringing people in, bringing the Jemele Hills in of the world to give Them an opportunity at espn, really. Not one person had come in and done it like you did it. And look directly back in the camera or in Stephen A's eyes. And you were never. You were never pounding the table to try to get him to believe what you. You're like. It was just a straight up challenge, and no one had ever done that. Did you realize that when you came in to that chair to fill in every once in a while on First Take?

[B]

First of all, thank you for everything that you just said. And the way we interacted at those upfronts was a little bit like Christians back in ancient Rome drawing a fish symbol in the sand. You know, like we figured out.

[A]

And it's like, shh, don't tell anybody.

[B]

And it felt that way a little bit.

[A]

Well, it was for many years, and.

[B]

It literally was for you. And our experience was different. We should talk about that. But for me, on. And we've talked about him, and you know this. Stephen A and I are friends, and I think the first time I was on First Take, we weren't in person. I think it was remote.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And, I mean, I went at him hard. I remember going at him about Phil Jackson. It was Phil Jackson then the New York Knicks coach. And he texted me, and he didn't have my number. I didn't have his number. So he asked.

[A]

He got it.

[B]

He asked one of the producers for my number, and he said that's the way to do it. Right there. That's it.

[A]

That's the thing people don't realize. He enjoys someone who is intellectually capable of coming at him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's what you did.

[B]

And he wants to be challenged. He does format of the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, Stephen A and I, there was only one time in my five years of doing this with him that it was ever that. I remember it being negative. It got real heated.

[A]

Very.

[B]

And it's on camera. Y' all can see it. Like one of the most famous ones. My sons actually pulled it up the other day. Cause I guess it's on TikTok or something. Like, dad, this one. And I'm like, yeah, I remember that day. I was super heated that day. But it was about Kevin Durant visiting the White House or not visiting the White House. I can't remember which one he chose.

[A]

To do after Warriors.

[B]

Trump was president. Yeah. And it was Max and Stephen A versus me. But there was only one time that I ever said to Stephen A, Are we good? And he said, no. And by the way, that's not A big deal. Like, you hear that, like, you have these verbal jousts and you have a relationship with people that gets real raw and authentic, and I actually love it. Like, I've said this before, Sage, I said to Stephen A. I said on camera in a lot of ways, like, black guys. And I, whether or not people don't believe this, but hit it off because the way we grew up and the culture that we had is similar. I'm painting with a broad brush. Not everybody does. But, like, you know, the debate world, the idea that I can say something to you in disagreement and it's not mean or it doesn't mean, I don't like you. Like, especially around the world of sports, like, I just never felt like that was a thing. Like, so what if I said you're wrong? Like, now we're not good. I never even thought about that. And a lot of the black guys at ESPN were operating on the same wavelength. Stephen A. He never took it personally when I said these things. Like, one time, and I don't remember what it was. It was Hugh Jackson, I think it was somewhere around race in this issue. And Hugh Jackson, when he was fired, I think he won like one game.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And they were probably making the argument that it was racist. See Raiders, it's Browns.

[A]

Oh, it's Browns, of course. Yeah. And coordinator. And then. Yep.

[B]

And they were. I'm not trying to be dismissive of Stephen Amx, but odds are they were making an argument that it was somehow tied to race, of course. And I was like, no, it's not. And. And it got heated and I think Damien Woody was on the panel and. And I talked to Stephen A later and he's like, you got too mad that day. I said, are we good? He's like, no, you got too mad that day or something like that.

[A]

It's the only time too mad.

[B]

I think that's what it was. Yeah. But in general, no matter what you saw and it's not fake, people always say that they think that you can get over this is the thing. Back to the. The to. I don't know what if there's a racial overlap on it or not, but like, if they also think if you're going to disagree, that, that, that fervently, it must be fake. It must be that you're putting it on. Not once. Now I can't speak to people that were on the show before me or, or. Or after me, but never once is it like, you take this side, I'll take that side. We'll Ramp it up. No, it's not how it works.

[A]

I mean, you guys got the topics ahead of time and discussed them and pushed topics.

[B]

There's a morning meeting.

[A]

It's a morning meeting. Exactly.

[B]

And that morning meeting is key to the production of First Take and Stephen A. And I would sit in there before me. Skip and Stephen A. Of course, Max, sure. And you go, you know, whatever. Derrick Rose scored 30, had 10 assists last night. Is he now one of the three best point guards in the NBA? And somebody goes, no way. And the other goes, put it on the board. And that's the end of the discussion. Like, you identify a source of disagreement, and then you don't do it in the meeting. You just put it on the board.

[A]

That's why it was, I think, for a very long time, kind of must see tv. It was the only show that was doing it and doing it organically. And people say the same thing to me. And especially when Skip was where. There's no way Skip believes what he's saying. I had him on my show a couple of months ago, and I'm like, no, no, no. He does, like, everything Skip says. Even if you think it's insane, he actually believes it. And he does so much homework on it. Even if you don't like what he comes up with as the answer or whatever, however he bases his opinion, that was him. I told the story when he was on my show about one year, and my kids were very little at the time, but he'd always kind to me and saw, you know, it was happening behind the scenes long before I actually understood it and really had my back with some things. And I wanted to thank him. So I invited him over for dinner. I think My kids were 4, 6, and 8 at the time. And we agreed to it. I mean, went out and bought the steaks, and I was. This whole thing. We didn't have many people over at the time. Kids are little. I'm working crazy morning shift. It was just chaos. And he texted me later that day when he was supposed to show up. He's like, I can't do it. I'm sorry, I gotta cancel.

[B]

I was like, game?

[A]

What do you mean? Yeah, but what kind of game was it? It was random women's college softball. A regional game. Correct. You know how much he loves his softball. But I was like, skip, like, they'll replay it later tonight. But, like, we've been planning this for a really long time. And he's like, this is a really good series. Oklahoma. And somebody. And he's Like, I gotta watch it. I love you. I can't. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm never inviting you again. You chose softball over me and my family. But my point was, he took everything so, so, so seriously. And I loved what that show was at that time.

[B]

Yeah, Skip and I only overlapped for a little bit. Yeah, he was really cool to me. He invited me to the First Take meetings long before I was ever involved with First Take so I could learn the process. And in retrospect, you know, he totally could have seen me as a threat.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Like, I didn't know this at the time. I didn't know any of these things. You don't know when somebody else's contract is up. Right, right. I think his contract was up a year after I joined. So he could have been like, who's this guy that debates? I mean, by the way, he probably didn't see him as a threat because he's so much bigger at that time than I was. But he could have. There's a lot of insecurity in this business. Right. And he didn't act that way to me. You know, we never spent a lot of time around each other. But the time that we did spend around each other, he was friendly and he shared information with me, like, this is how it works. Let me show you how it works.

[A]

What did you take from that experience? Because obviously your name exploded. Really? In that way, when you're at ESPN and doing First Take in particular.

[B]

Well, I'll tell you, Skip, to your point, is legendary in the First Take community. So I lived First Take, even though I wasn't the permanent host or whatever. I was friends with all those producers. I lived, talked on a daily basis. And Skip is legendary because of what you said, his preparation. I mean, the producers would be like, you know, he literally watched every game that he had talked about. He watched them all. He might be the only sage. You can speak to this like, he might be the only Ryan. Rosilla watches a lot.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't know anybody else, now, that I could say watches as much.

[A]

When. I hope the context hits home here. When I am talking about women's. It isn't even the actual World Series yet. It's the regionals leading up to it. And he's watching every single game, and that's for softball, so you're damn right he's watching every single NFL game. Thank goodness, at some point for Red zone or whatever DirecTV 10 satellites he had, and certainly every NBA game. He's a Basketball guy. That's what he loved, besides his cowboys. Right. The preparation was incredible. And that's why to me, he's legendary. And I saw the way he treated you. I saw the way that he brought women, Jemele Hill onto that set. I saw how he was even with Dana Jacobson when she was the host and certainly Jay Crawford. Like, it was, it was really cool to have a seat right there on the sidelines to watch this whole thing. And that's why when you came and did what you did, it was really impressive and awesome to watch. It did change, obviously, your recognizability. I mean, that was a whole other level. It's one thing to do politics at cnn, which was as big as it gets at that time. I mean, Fox News. Yes.

[B]

But now we know how many people actually watch CNN.

[A]

Okay. Times have changed because back then 10, 15 years ago, CNN was still much more respectful than they are now, for sure. Right. And then first take, then. So how did you handle that? Because the star, the name Will Caine, really, really did cross. I think all demographics, all different aspects of our industry.

[B]

Yeah. I think my answer will cover a lot of the ground. So first of all, CNN changed drastically. CNN when I was there was liberal biased.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Trump wasn't on the scene yet. Then they became more agenda driven, not just biased. Now they are and have been for the last five, I would call it propaganda. Like truth is not relative to what they have to say. It's a purpose driven to take down President Trump and so forth. It wasn't like that when I was there. I will, I do remember this. I was at CNN on a morning show after Elliot Spitzer show with Soledad o'. Brien. It was called Starting Point with Soul Dad o'. Brien. I was on it every morning. And Trayvon Martin happened. Okay. And I approached the Trayvon Martin case like a lawyer. Like I am the lawyer that you are. Yeah. And I knew what I didn't know and I knew what the cops didn't know, and I certainly knew what the journalists didn't know. Meaning I can remember some of the details of Trayvon Martin. But, you know, there was a gap missing in the 911 call where we don't know what happened between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin and who was the aggressor. We don't know. The popular narrative was that George Zimmerman hunted down Trayvon Martin. And then the counterargument was they had a confrontation. Whether or not they should have or not, if Zimmerman was overstepping his authority and bounds, doesn't really matter at the point they get into a confrontation, who's the aggressor? Does Martin attack Zimmerman and Zimmerman defends himself or Zimmerman the aggressor? And so I would make these arguments. You don't know. We don't know what happened in this gap of time. So it's reasonable doubt, by the way, in a court of law. And I get called a racist. Yeah, all the time. Yeah, all the time. So it started. I'd gotten used to that. And then it also. Romney, Obama running for election. I'm there, and I get called a racist. And it really. I just. The thing that I hated the most, if random people call you racist on the Internet, whatever, when people that you work with do something like that, that's different. Okay? And that started happening at cnn. Illusions, statements, and then hostility in particular. I'll tell you the person, Don Lemon, I'm not a fan, okay? And so now I go to ESPN and I'm doing Colin Kaepernick's kneeling, and I'm doing all these subjects. And, man, my social media is just. You're pointing out all the positives. And you're right. It was a great leap forward in my name recognition and who I am as a career. But, man, half the time it's like, okay, here we go. Get ready to be called a racist today. Again. I knew how it would go. Wasn't going to change what I had to say. My wife used to say, will, maybe you should come out first and say, you know, racism is real, or just.

[A]

Let people know that you're like a qualifier almost before.

[B]

Yeah, because no, you're like, you understand these things. And before, I'm like, babe, that's not the show. Like, first of all, First Take is not built upon this. It's built upon where's the disagreement? And I'm going to lead with where you're wrong. And also, I don't think I should have to do all that. Like, I let my life speak for myself. You know, I always say this, and you and I are having hard hearts. Now. I just kind of am volunteering information.

[A]

I love it. Thank you.

[B]

When I lived in New York, my kids went to school in Harlem. My kids. My oldest son in particular was one of five white kids in the whole school. Okay. He went to School on 135th street to a charter school. And then I'd go to First Take or I'd go to espn. And I knew I was surrounded by people who were sending their kids to lily white private schools, spending a Ton of money to make sure they do it. Calling or alluding to the fact that I was racist. And I'm like, this is too much for me to bear. But it was great for my career in terms of the platform and the name recognition, despite all that swirling around me, you know.

[A]

Did you consider at any time toning it down?

[B]

No.

[A]

Softening. Especially with Kathleen at home telling you, really, well, I need to start with this. You couldn't do it because I'm gonna be real.

[B]

That's been my only North Star, my only guiding light. Be you. Be real. You said the word performance once or twice. We do perform. And you do learn how to perform. You learn how to work a camera. Not behind it, in front of it. You know, you learn a lot of things. But I didn't ever. This is why I walked away from it at Pepperdine. I don't want to be an actor. I don't. I have to be real. I have to tell it the way I think I've grown since First Take days. I do think I've grown.

[A]

How so?

[B]

In my broadcast, in my career.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. The skill set, the tv. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I'm not as confrontational as I used to be when I was on First Take.

[A]

You can pull it out when you need to.

[B]

I can pull out when you need.

[A]

We've seen this on the Will Cain show here on Fox News. Yes.

[B]

And by the way, that's a different role. It is.

[A]

Well, you're a host.

[B]

That's right. And you can't be rude to your guests. I believe that. I believe that if I invite a Democratic politician onto my show, it's my job to be a gracious host. I will tell them they're wrong and I will debate them, but I will always thank them for coming on. I will always. You let them speak, and I will let them speak.

[A]

And then you will break down why they're wrong.

[B]

That's right. And first takes a little different than that. It's like you're not the. You're not the host. So you just like. It's like, go and go, go get em.

[A]

Were there any. Because obviously I've received. I know what it's like to be the recipient of online hate to be called a racist misogynist. Fascinating, but. So there have been times where I'm like, okay, that one hurt. Or, okay, this is affecting my kids because my kids were old enough to go to school.

[B]

School.

[A]

And hear it from teachers and other parents, et cetera. And that's the only time when I Considered maybe this isn't worth it. When there's fear involved and you're trying to protect those you love. I love that you didn't have that moment.

[B]

I don't know why I didn't have that moment.

[A]

Especially when people are coming at you online.

[B]

No part of it's the quantity. Like, I couldn't obsess about any one particular thing.

[A]

Somebody said, there's so many.

[B]

There was so many, but I wasn't going to change anyway. So, you know, I'm friends with Ryan Rossillo and at the same time, now first takes going on, I was starting to do the Rosillo show on ESPN Radio and we're still friends. We talk to this day. And if Ryan were sitting here and he was indulging conversations about my career, he would probably raise, was it good for you or not? He has said to me, like, he said, I saw you appear. And I'm like, oh my gosh, look at this guy. And he's rising so fast at espn and. But it also branded me. Like he and I have these. He's like, it branded you a certain way. And then the guy that ended up being on ESPN Radio with his own show for a lot of the audience are like, whoa, he's way different than I thought. He's not as combative. He laughs at himself. He has fun hanging out with guys who disagree with him. It's like, yeah, well, that's the full version of me over here is really just the debate version of me.

[A]

It's a completely different role. And I don't know that people really fully appreciate that because in this case, you had Molly Karam, right, as the host, I guess, and you're going when it's your turn, basically. And then you get a couple of minutes to state your case and then the back and forth really begins. And then you get your show on ESPN Radio, which I was so thrilled for that too. Again, this is back in the day where I feel like ESPN really was allowing different voices, although albeit very few, to do what you were doing. It was obvious that you weren't a left wing nutjob. Okay. It was obvious that you weren't a liberal even. And to me, you were always just common sense and leaning right. But they gave you that platform.

[B]

They did.

[A]

And I think. And now that I look back, even though it's been so many years, like, wow, you know, that was good.

[B]

Can you imagine it now?

[A]

That's what makes me so sad, though, because there's no way in hell that would happen now when do you think ESPN turned? Because I have my ideas of when it kind of took that turn of. And then kind of the point of no return, actually.

[B]

Well, when Trump was elected president the first time, it turned everything over. Not just espn, everything. That's when CNN lost its mind. That's when everybody. And that's when so many personalities at espn, I don't think nobody. So for people that are not in media, you probably wonder how a lot of this stuff works and it's not as coordinated or as top down as you might think. So I don't think the people that ran ESPN said I want to be an anti Trump or I want to be a left wing sports network. I don't think they said that to themselves. I think they said they came at it first. The first thing they did is hire a group of people that they considered to be smart and talented and they were attracted to the intellectual side of it. And so now you've got those people in place and then Donald Trump comes and they're all liberal, but real quick.

[A]

Who they believe are smart.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And intellectual.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of them are still there.

[A]

Yes. The decision makers and some of the people that they brought in. Yes. And so that's the point. It's so subjective, the subjectivity based on the leadership that you have in place, Correct?

[B]

That's right. So they didn't say, I want to make ESPN liberal. They didn't do that.

[A]

No. But that's what they believed.

[B]

So therefore, for the people they picked. So the people they picked to put in place were the ones that couldn't control it once Donald Trump became president. And then they start saying what they're saying on Twitter, on tv, it starts doing it. And I think the management of USPN was like, gosh, I don't really want this, but you hired this and this is what you're getting. And it's kind of hard to put the clamps on it.

[A]

And especially if those leaders agreed with it. What happened in my experience is that they then had a very hard time drawing that line because, yes, this is the business side. Keep your personal out of it. But wait, I actually agree with what this person is saying or tweeting. And so I'm not going to discipline them for that. Because it falls in line with your stories. Yeah, exactly. And that's not what today is. But.

[B]

Yeah, but, but my story is they knew my POV and I give them credit for platforming my po.

[A]

Yes. And giving you your own show.

[B]

Yes. With you. They held you to a standard that they did not hire hold to all those other people. Right. That's what we're talking about. And that reflects real hypocrisy, and it reflects their own bias at the decision maker level that you couldn't say the things that other people were saying, your counterparts on the other side of the opinion aisle.

[A]

Yeah, it's very simple. Actually, that's the only reason I filed the lawsuit. You know, I'd given my apologies. I was like, okay, okay, I'll stay quiet. I'll never say anything again. And then I see them allowing everybody else to do it while, wow, they're actually on ESPN airwaves versus my stuff, which was always separate. Always. You know, I never tied ESPN to.

[B]

Your big sin was with Jay Cutler, right?

[A]

Yeah, that was a great one. Right. And where is he now? In jail. Okay, great. Maybe he's out. I think it was only four or five days, but he was in jail for the deal anyway.

[B]

We got quarterbacks going to jail everywhere.

[A]

Wow. I know. What the heck. Mark Sanchez. What is. You know what? You pray that he's okay. You pray that the victim's okay. And we will see how that one plays out. See, the attorney in will is giving me eyeballs. Don't do it. Don't go there.

[B]

Well, I just don't know. We don't know.

[A]

We don't know exactly. But I am sad because the network that I grew up loving, dreaming of being on, and then actually doing it, it changed my life. I wouldn't change one single thing about my 16 and a half years there, including how it ended. I really wouldn't. Because it shaped who I am today, and I'm grateful for it. But I'm still sad as a fan and as a consumer, because it is undeniable how it turned. And to me, it was 2016 when I saw leadership doing on Twitter what they told us not to do, which was to get political and crushing Donald Trump and screaming and crying and yelling that Hillary Clinton did not win the presidency and that she should have and Russia and all these things. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. These are our bosses who told us to stay quiet. And believe it or not, I am a rule follower. I was like, whatever you say, Whatever you say. And I thought, wait, they're the boss. What is this? And that's how it began. And then all hell broke loose.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And then when you have Jamel Hill going out and tweeting what she tweeted with no repercussions, and then eventually repercussions once she went the NFL route. But you can't. I always say this. I say it in parenting. I say all the time, you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube once it's out. Especially because they agreed with all the sentiments that their liberal employees were saying. So. And then 2020 hit the summer of love, and that was it.

[B]

Well, I was gone.

[A]

You were gone. But you're watching because you're a sports fan.

[B]

I left in.

[A]

You left in 2020?

[B]

Yeah, June. June of 2020. I was there after George Floyd.

[A]

Yes. You were there. Right. I mean, part of those discussions. Were you still on First Take?

[B]

Well, Covid. So Covid hits in March, and so.

[A]

Then you guys are separated.

[B]

We're separated. And at that point, I'm not doing a lot of first take. I'm doing my radio show remotely. And I did do First Take a few times during COVID And you're doing it through your computer.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, you're zooming in.

[A]

But don't you remember those conversations and how different the conversation was on First Take at that point? And it really turned from sports. Now everything in the country did. Granted, it was a time that none of us had ever seen and hopefully never will again. And it took over everything, every conversation. Which now leads to statues of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Right. But it was such a confusing time because I think we were all, as sportscasters, trying to be very sensitive to what was happening and lives lost, et cetera, but then still going, what the heck is happening? And First Take showed that you, I guess, weren't on as frequently. But certainly a radio show, I mean, you had to talk about these things, didn't you?

[B]

All day. Because there's no sports happening either.

[A]

We are making up sports stories.

[B]

There was no sports.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, I'm proud. That content that I did then, that's some of the most proud content I am of stuff.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Oh, I took callers. I had debates over race. We had debates over policing. We. We had real conversations that America needed to be having at that time. And I've always loved those real conversations. I've loved, you know, a black collar into the Will Kane show that says, you don't get it. You don't. And we'll explain it to me. And then. But I've never been the guy that's like, I'm not into the lived experience thing. You know, I'm not denying someone's lived experience, but it doesn't. Like in the argument, you know what I'm saying when somebody says I'm going to have a counterpoint and we're going to go back and forth. And there was this visceral nature to the relationship between me and the callers and me and the guests that would come in. It was just raw in real. And that's all I've ever hungered for. Like, raw, real authentic stuff.

[A]

It's hard. It's hard to do. I know that you thrive on it, like you love it, but live callers, it's dangerous.

[B]

Oh, I love it. I love it.

[A]

You're a sicko.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

What do you take from it?

[B]

Oh, I love the unpredictability, the spontaneity. I think sometimes they're hilarious. I think sometimes they make good points. Sometimes I slam dunk on them. It's just, who knows what's going to come out of the chocolate box? It's great.

[A]

You don't do that now. Well, do you live callers?

[B]

I don't do that yet.

[A]

Oh, we're teasing things now. So you want to do it again?

[B]

Oh, I definitely do. I love interaction with people and that's something I've. No, I didn't learn it at fox. I learned it at espn, but it's only been heightened at fox. First take, we do specifically around the NBA Finals. We did it around the NBA draft. We did it around a couple of things. And the fans show up and they're there. And I love interacting with them.

[A]

They were on you.

[B]

I loved it. And even if they thought I was the villain, but they did it with a smile on their face because everybody's different in real life than they are on the Internet. And I just loved it when you walk in.

[A]

I remember those sets on the road, you know, Golden State or wherever you were. And Stephen A Molly Will whoever was there walks in. I mean, those people have been lined up for hours.

[B]

Golden State. Let me tell you something. So first take is at 10am Eastern time. That means it starts at 7am west coast. And they were lining up at 4 and the weed was burning by 4:30. You could smell it when you drove up. Those people had been smoking weed all morning.

[A]

Yes, we are in the Bay Area after all. Yeah, but there's an energy that comes from that when you walk in and you know deep down they respect you, but they hate you and they are yelling at you and screaming. And when you give your point, I mean, the booze are raining down on you.

[B]

And they liked me. They knew they needed it. They knew they did.

[A]

Deep down they love Me, I'm going.

[B]

Tell you a secret. One time, the management told me this. They said, we did a focus group. Black people hate you. And I said, no, they don't. And I said, I meet them all the time. They love me. They love me. And they go. And I remember this guy telling me, black people are polite. They're not going to tell you your face. And I'm like, okay, I love how.

[A]

We paint everything with this broad brush.

[B]

Is that Dave Roberts, his management?

[A]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[B]

No. And then I get to Fox and I start doing diners, and I start going to these things. And I love interacting with the viewers.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And so do I want that in my show now? You bet I do. I want interaction. I don't like being. I don't want to give sermons. I don't like sitting in a pulpit. I do have things to say. You're getting a monologue. But I want you, who's watching to tell me, yes, you think I'm wrong? You think I'm right. You have a different opinion. Let's go.

[A]

Okay. Charlie Kirk proved me wrong. Yeah. That's what it kind of feels like, Charlie.

[B]

And you know what? I remember listening to sports radio station. I don't have any idea how long you want to go on this podcast, but I'm just having a good time.

[A]

I just love this conversation. Thank you.

[B]

And these guys on these local sports radio show were saying, you know when you meet your college buddy's high school friend, and you're like, he's just better than me. And it really pisses you off. A reverse. It's usually the high school friend that meets the college friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's better than me. But there's a level of humility to be able to say that Charlie Kirk was better than me. And I pride myself on debate and those things. And Charlie was phenomenal.

[A]

Masterclass. So good to watch him do what he did every day. It was a master class.

[B]

And what you said, like, it's not just about being right, and it's not just about the information, having a rebuttal. It's also his demeanor.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That is so key. Like, that's what I've learned, by the way, from first take. Like, you know, he always did it with a smile. He always did it conceding where he needed to concede, but pushing where he needed to push. He was phenomenal at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, Ben Shapiro is a great debater. A great debater. There's a lot of people that are really good debaters But I don't know of anybody that had the full package that Charlie had.

[A]

I, I don't know that we. That everybody fully appreciated it until now.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't.

[A]

Until he's gone. And it's amazing how many people have come up to me and saying, I'm embarrassed. I didn't know who he was until he was murdered.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think his legacy is going to continue and just actually continue to grow. But he was so good and he would state his case, make his point, and he'd actually put the microphone down and listen. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think just that act of putting it down and leaning back and showing whichever young kid was at that microphone, it's your turn. I'm going to listen. And to be respectful. It was actually beautiful to watch. And I hope that people can take. Can take that from him. If nothing else, he was respectful and kind, while disagreeing, while encouraging. And that's. I mean, that is what you. That's what you've done and what you continue to hope to do. It sounds like.

[B]

Right. That's what I hope to do.

[A]

Do you let me wrap up espn? Because as the fan that I am, and I know you are, do you think there's hope for them to return to a place where they are perceived to not be as political as I believe they are right now? And I think you do, too.

[B]

So let me say this, and I have no. I say this with no wishful thinking or joy. I don't think it matters. Just don't think it matters.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't think it's as relevant as it used to be.

[A]

It. The network, espn.

[B]

I think I love sports. I love so many people on and off air at espn. I mean, really, who are important to my career. I mean, I see the ratings. I see how people live, what they watch. People still watch first take. They do. College kids watch first take. It's just not as important as it used to be. So I don't know why. Do you think that a multitude of choices in what to consume. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to undercut specifically First Take, which I think still does pretty good on occasion. Does pretty good ratings.

[A]

I mean, relative to many of the sports shows, which are way down relative.

[B]

Everything else. Absolutely.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I just think maybe people aren't consuming that kind of content as much as they used to. I think it's lost a little bit of its place in the center of the conversation. Now, when you are in the center, meaning after a game, before a game, around a game. And you see that bias and those types of things, that's a problem. And I don't know if they can get that right or not. But as for everything else, like, you know, there are people that you and I both know at ESPN who are very liberal, who say these things on talk shows. I'm not talking about first take now. I'm talking about other ones. And I don't care. I don't care. It doesn't hit.

[A]

I think we were there during the end of the heyday.

[B]

I think you're right. I do, too.

[A]

So I'm grateful for that and that I got to be part of it. We got to be part of it. And to witness it and to. And to sit next to my. Who ended up being my dear. My closest friend there was Stuart Scott.

[B]

Yeah, I never met Stuart.

[A]

Yeah, you would have, because he died in 2015. In January of 2015. Yeah, you would have loved him. We could not have been more different in all of these ways that we're talking about. It didn't matter because it's about the human being. And I'll tell you now, and I'll probably edit this out because it's not about. This show is not about me. But I thought so often when I was, you know, going like that and crashing quickly and getting canceled, what would Stuart say? What would he say to me? And I think he would have. Well, I know he would have supported because he respected where I was coming from, and he knew my heart, you know, which most people don't want to take the time anymore in general, in any part of life, to get to know the why behind what someone is saying or doing. That's why I always say to my kids, too. I'm like, you know, when you're consuming this online and you don't agree with it, fine, like, disagree. But to dislike them because of it, like, you have to respect their opinion. Opinions are based on usually your experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know your experience, and you don't know mine.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So when we're throwing rocks at that person.

[B]

I felt that way at times at espn. You don't know me. All you that are, like, passing judgment or even the other people.

[A]

I'm talking about peers there.

[B]

Who cares about the public, people on set. You don't know my life and what I'm choosing. I remember Lebatard. He had me on his show towards the end of my tenure, and he wanted to try to understand why I thought the way I thought. And his questions all were baked with assumptions and the assumptions were like, oh, you're from a small town in Texas. Oh, your dad must have been. These are the reasons I am the way I am. And I'm like, well, I'm the way that I am. Because I think this. I've thought about it. I've studied it. I went to law school. I thought about the Constitution. Oh, I am culturally from small town Texas, too. That's part of me. But don't just act like I'm a product of my environment and somebody, you know, made me this way. I made me this way.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's easier to have a shortcut to box you in. It's hard to actually get to know human beings and what makes them tick.

[A]

It is. It takes effort, invest in time. You do. And many people don't want to. Don't have the time. Fine. But I do think that is what's missing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for some people, that ship has sailed. For some networks, that ship has sailed. But I do have hope as long as we continue to have conversations and whatever format and platform that is. That's why. Yes, you need to get back to taking calls at some point somewhere, because not everybody's able to do it and do it kindly, you know.

[B]

You accuse me of not watching. Thank you for that. You accuse me not watching your show. This is the point in the show where I go, I'm gonna offer you a lip pillow. It's the second time that you've been offered a lip pillow on your show. And I know that to be the case now.

[A]

You know that I know what a lip pillow is.

[B]

Fizzy cola straight from Europe. This is fancy. This is the fancy stuff.

[A]

You're so bougie.

[B]

This is European Zen.

[A]

What the heck is European Zen?

[B]

Well, they've got more flavors in Europe.

[A]

Okay, I cannot.

[B]

And this one is fizzy cola. I don't know what language that is.

[A]

I'll just smell it. But this is so disgusting. You are. See, I'm gonna put you in that box. You're from Texas, and so you have to have chaw on your lip. Right.

[B]

Smells like fizzy cola.

[A]

I don't smell anything. What would it. Dustin? No, I. Nunley said it would give me a buzz.

[B]

Yeah, that one's got a lot of nicotine in it.

[A]

So are you an addict?

[B]

Well, absolutely.

[A]

To what?

[B]

This.

[A]

But that's coming after something else.

[B]

No, only this.

[A]

Why would you even start that? So you never dipped?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So that's what I'm saying.

[B]

Nicotine. And I started when I.

[A]

Did you smoke?

[B]

I Started when I was 15.

[A]

Did you smoke?

[B]

Well, there has been a phase of that I, I, I started. I'll give you the whole progression. I don't care.

[A]

What did you smoke?

[B]

Cigarettes. What was that phase we said?

[A]

Is that it?

[B]

Yes. When I was 15, I started. I'm not proud of this, but it's just.

[A]

I.

[B]

Maybe I'm a little proud. No, I started with Levi, Garrett, Redman.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

All the chew. Do you know what that is? That's chaw.

[A]

That's like, where you can say, no.

[B]

No, no, that's wad. And like a baseball player with your whole cheek coming out here. And then you spit. No, you spit. Big, big strings. Nasty.

[A]

It's sexy. So hot.

[B]

So gross. But every. We all wanted to be men.

[A]

We wanted to be, especially from Texas.

[B]

Baseball players and baseball shirts. Yeah, we wanted to be like that. So then you go to Skull Bandits, and you get your cherry and your mint Skull Bandits in nice little packets. But the whole point you're doing this is you're working your way up to graduate school. And graduate school, you get your PhD when you get to Copenhagen.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you got to get to Copenhagen. So I got to Copenhagen probably in college. And that's a whole thing. Now you're in the Copenhagen culture. And you. Can you pack it.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And can you get you a pinch? It's fine. Cut. Of course. And you know, can you. And then keep it all together in your mouth. It's terrible. It's nasty.

[A]

It's perfect in the chlorine. Playing water polo, too.

[B]

And we don't do it while you're playing water polo, but. And then my wife said, I wish you'd quit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Early in marriage. And I did, and I have quit everything since. So. What I mean by that.

[A]

Everything. All of the things.

[B]

Every time they come out with the new thing, I'm like, maybe I should try. It was snus. Then there was. Then the sweetest camel came out with a snooze packet. And then, then I started. I was in New York, so I'd go to this fancy store and buy this Swedish snus. And then it was. This is probably five years in the making. I heard about this from the kids.

[A]

Oh, whose kids?

[B]

The contemporaries of my kids.

[A]

Okay. Your boys.

[B]

My boys don't do it.

[A]

Yeah, I should hope not.

[B]

Yeah. But yeah, it's. It's super clean. It's not that bad for you. Nicotine is not bad for you. Tobacco causes cancer, not nicotine.

[A]

Okay, go ahead and rationalize. Whatever you want here.

[B]

But it's addictive, and I am addicted.

[A]

Do they subscribe to your show and you get paid by Zen on your show?

[B]

No. In fact, there is a brand that's much more friendly to the Will Kane Show. Okay, just amount. I'm just out, guys. Send me some Lucy.

[A]

You are failing. Send me some Lucy. Okay, good. Yeah. Let's see. Another fact I did not know about you, but I should have known. I mean, all guys from Texas who wear cowboy boots do that stuff, right?

[B]

Most of my friends do.

[A]

Let me just act like Lebatard and just assume everything.

[B]

Yeah. Right. So it turns out Lebatard was right.

[A]

Yeah. Lebatard.

[B]

Make all your assumptions.

[A]

There you go. That's the first and last thing Lebatard was right about. I will definitely leave that one alone. That's for another day when I want to fight.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He'll be one of the first ones on my list. Okay. I have 64 other things to talk about, and I know that I don't have time. And I am hearing everybody's stomachs grumbling because we're all hungry. I do want to. Like, when you went to Fox and Fox and Friends, I was just so happy because of the conversational nature of what that show was.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I thought it was just such a perfect fit for you. And always loved Rachel. And I never met Pete Hegseth.

[B]

No.

[A]

At some point. No.

[B]

You still haven't.

[A]

No. We have to make that happen.

[B]

I will make that happen.

[A]

Right? Yeah. But I loved that. And it's tough, man. I don't think people understand how difficult it is to find real, genuine chemistry where you really like somebody. Because let me tell you how many times I've been assigned to a. And I got along with 99% of them. A couple of them. You know, it's hard. You can't fake that shit. You can't. And you guys had it.

[B]

Lightning in a bottle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Magic. I've been doing this for a long time, and I pride myself on establishing chemistry with people like you were talking about. When you have a guest that comes in, you tell they're nervous. It's your job to be real with them. Get them real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had a level of chemistry with Soledad o'. Brien. I had a level of chemistry with Elliot Spitzer. I had certainly good chemistry with Stephen A. Smith. I had chemistry with Ryan Rosillo. And it's a matter of being a real person and connecting nothing like what I have with Pete.

[A]

Rachel.

[B]

I go in there not expecting It. Pete and I were friends and I knew Pete and Rachel wasn't on the show when I first joined. And I mean, I could tell pretty early on this is gonna be cool with Pete. Like we're gonna be cool. This is. We're buddies, we're hitting it off, going back. And then Rachel comes in. She's just energy. She's just Rachel.

[A]

And now with nine kids, no multiples. Right.

[B]

She's one of one.

[A]

She's incredible.

[B]

I don't know. Another Rachel.

[A]

Incredible. Do you know that real quick, do you know that I auditioned with Rachel for an alternative version of the View, the talk in 2003. Jennifer Lopez's sister was creating a show, trying to create a pilot, and I auditioned with Rachel version of the Talk. Yeah, a talk show. I guess I don't even know if it was exactly like that. I mean, the Talk wasn't in existence then, but Talk, View, like that type of vibe. In 03, we auditioned in Philadelphia. She was pregnant with her third. I was pregnant with her with my second.

[B]

That'd been great.

[A]

Would have been, yeah. There were all kinds of interesting people auditioning for that thing. But she only had three kids then. She's nine.

[B]

Nine.

[A]

Nine.

[B]

But anyway, showing up to work with those two was so much fun. Sage. And by the way, getting up at 4 in the morning, not my ideal.

[A]

In New York City in the winter.

[B]

But to show up with those two, it was just. And it's a four hour show. It's just so easy. And. And you know, you've been in TV in a long time. I've been on TV long time. Executives try to find chemistry and they try to engineer, they force this person. Yeah. And all I know is, I don't know how you identify it, but when you have it, you better try to keep it together. Now what happened with our show is. Is what? And I've been doing this long enough. Pete and I used to tell Rachel everything comes to an end, good things come to an end. It's lightning in a bottle. And no one knew it would go the way it did with like Secretary of Defense slash Secretary of War and me getting my own show in Dallas. But what a special five years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Most special chemistry I've had in my career.

[A]

I remember your coverage of the fires in Hawaii. Lahaina.

[B]

Lahaina.

[A]

Lahaina. I'm sorry I always say it the wrong way, which I know that's something you're super proud of based on the history you have in Hawaii. Can you explain why that was so devastating for you and important for you to be there.

[B]

Well, my mom was there when it happened. I grew up going to. It's a beach resort right next to Lahaina. Lahaina is a real town. I mean, been there since like the early 1800s. A whaling and fishing capital of Texas at, I mean of Hawaii. And at one point like the, the home of the royal family. And it, it had its touristy parts like Front street and we would all go down there and hang out, but it was really where everybody that was from Hawaii or worked in Hawaii lived. It was their home base. And that entire town burned down, the entire thing basically. And I was only there like a week or two before I had left. And outside of Texas, it's like there's no place even Montana, which I love as near and dear to my heart. I grew up there every summer. And when you go up there on vacation, you're kind of on the outskirts of the locals. You're not always with them. Sometimes I had friends who were locals, but I just felt super indebted to these people that allowed us to enjoy their home for so long. There's some tension between the local and tourist population, but I always respected the relationship and there was just had to be something done. And you know, this goes back to that grieving thing we were talking about earlier. Like what do you do? Well, you take action and you don't plan it, you don't think. And I went to cover it and then I set up a GoFundMe with another two families that I've grown up in Hawaii with. And it's the family of Wayne Dyer, who's a very famous self help author. He's passed, but his kids are very good friends with our family and another great family from California. And with the generosity of Fox, they allowed me to raise money. So every weekend and every time I appeared on Jesse, on Fox and Friends and certainly hosting our show, I asked people to contribute to this GoFundMe and we raised $2.6 million. Yeah, I was blown away every time. Fox viewers are the best. They're the best. I mean the relationship we have with our viewers is a two way relationship. That is incredible. And I've never seen it certainly in that way at espn, not that way at cnn. And we gave away, we gave away, what was it, $12,000 grants. We gave away about 212 of them to help people rebuild, use them, whatever. The wasn't my job to tell them how to use the money. They could rebuild a home, they could move, they could use it for their groceries and expenses. And I spoke to almost all of them on the phone. I personally vetted it to make sure we weren't giving it away to scam artists or anybody like that called. Do you know, so and so once I had my people in the community. Yes. They lost. Yes. You know, and told them, call them and told them. And I experienced a level of humanity on those phone calls that changed me for the rest of my life. My sons were baptized in Hawaii just the two weeks before that.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

The preacher lost his church, lost his own home. He's in my life to this day. And the reason isn't just all my personal stuff. Sage, what we do for a living is incredibly self centered, incredibly self focused. You know, we make good money. We get a lot of adoration. We talked a lot about you, and I talked a lot about the people that say negative things to us. We need to be real. A lot of people say really nice things to us too. And it's not enough. Like, it's not what it. It isn't meaningful. It's meaningful that people say these nice things when I meet them. It is. And what I mean is what I do with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't just make money from it. I can't just fill up my ego with it. I can't. I have to do more with the privilege and the platform that I've been given. And that was the fulfillment of making this job really meaningful in a way where I saw it. And I'd like to think that the things we do on a daily basis also help people, maybe to form a better government, maybe to help their neighbors. But on that one, I saw that what we can do, literally can help people get up off their. Off the ground.

[A]

What a blessing, right? It's one of the biggest to have the platform, timing is everything for you to have the ability to say to your bosses, I want to go do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they greenlight it and they say yes. And you are changing lives.

[B]

Yeah. And I so appreciate Fox. I really do. I mean, to your point, they don't have to say yes to that. And they could say, we donate to the Red Cross. We're not doing this thing that you did, you know, and yeah, I. I love Fox. I love Fox.

[A]

I happen to be. I was. It was a privilege to be on the Monday of the election in Buncombe County, North Carolina, with Tulsi Gabbard and Danica and touring six different spots in that county in Asheville that got completely decimated from the Hurricane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so fascinating, because hurricanes. Okay, fine. You can't prepare for something that's never happened before, which is what happened in North Carolina in the mountains, where you're supposed to be protected from these things. And what happened, devastating. It was so incredible to be on the ground, and people just wanted a hug. People just wanted to feel like they weren't forgotten by everybody because they felt like the government forgot about them and left them hanging. And in many ways, I think we can all agree FEMA did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Lahaina happened first. That was first.

[B]

And then you have Kerrville, Texas, with the floods.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And, you know, I consider my job, and I think that you do as well. My job is to tell the truth. That's the primary guiding light of my job, is to tell the truth. So that's the first thing I have to do. I don't want to be. What do you call it, like, an advocacy journalist or one of these things. My job is to tell the truth. Right. But to the extent that we can use our job to help people. And I've met, through this job some incredible people, some Green berets, some Navy SEALs, some guys that do this, and I was around them on North Carolina, and they mobilized like that. They mobilized in Lahaina, they mobilized North Carolina. They've mobilized in Florida. And they drop. In an extent that we can help that. I don't know. That's how you really make this job meaningful.

[A]

When Hegseth was going through the confirmation hearings, and really, I mean, getting crushed from every angle, you were very vocal, Rachel. Everybody's very vocal. Not just because he was your teammate, your brother, really, all those days, all those years, but because you talked about Pete Hugseth, the man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What were your conversations with, like, him at that time when he was going through it? I can only imagine how grateful he was to you. You didn't have to. You chose to.

[B]

You know, it's. Thank you. Didn't think twice about it. Didn't think, oh, should I or shouldn't I? And what does it mean for my career? Didn't think about any of that. It was the right thing to do. Because a man that I know and a man that I love was getting his reputation destroyed publicly. And it's wrong. And I had the unique ability to speak to who he is. I know who. I know him. He's not perfect. I never pretended that to be the case, but I do know who he is. And I don't know, Sage. I just didn't. I didn't think about it. I just did it and I kept doing it. And it's funny, he and I didn't talk a lot during that time. We talked a little bit, but he was going through it. He was like, he was going through it. And we talked a few times and I talked to his wife and they were appreciative, but that's why I was doing it. I didn't need to hear that from him. I didn't need to hear that he appreciated. I didn't need to hear these grateful. I would have done it anyway because it was the right thing to do.

[A]

And it was so personal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, they went deep with his wife and the family. I mean, they were trying every angle to crush him. And he owned some things. Right. But when, you know, when you know him and when you know her, when you know the family.

[B]

And as I've gotten older, like, I don't know if, if you'd asked me when I was 25 or 30 years old, is, like, loyalty one of your things? Like, yeah, I think loyalty is important. But, you know, there's some people that do what we do. It's just like, loyalty is everything. And you can tell, like, and I've learned about me, it's actually a really big thing for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm going to be loyal. Like, this is honestly, it's as much about me as it is about Pete. Like, I'm going to be this person because this is the person I would want the other person to be. And therefore, like, I would have felt bad if I didn't do it. Be loyal.

[A]

Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful to watch again, friendship. And it seems more and more rare as we go on. Earlier, you mentioned CNN and propaganda.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I certainly believe that that's the best way to describe cnn. And people say the exact same thing. Propaganda, Fox News, it's just the opposite of cnn. What's your reaction to that?

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

Why is it different?

[B]

Look, this is my thing, and it's always been my thing. Immediate. So, first of all, my job is to tell the truth. And in the pursuit of the truth, the first thing I have to be is honest. And so I start with dishonesty. I have a bias. I have opinions. I will tell you my opinions. The cardinal sin of somebody pretending to be objective and telling you the truth is they started with a lie. You're not objective. You have an opinion. Objectivity is an aspiration, not a place that you live. And so what I consider how I Approach this is, I arm the audience with that. This is who I am and what I believe. Now I'm gonna do my best to pursue the truth. I'll be wrong sometimes, I won't always get it right. And I will try to be self aware and bring people in that highlight where I'm wrong or where I got it wrong. But I don't think I twist the facts. I don't think, I certainly don't think that I tell lies. If I've told a lie, I would ask your viewers to point it out and I want to own it. So I'd like to know what's the lie I've ever told. I may have gotten something wrong. I'd love to know what that is too. But I don't think there's that same fidelity to the truth. I really don't.

[A]

@ CNN.

[B]

I mean, one of the things that I want to be careful of, and I've always asked this in, you know, even when I worked at espn, don't paint every individual with the brush of the network. And you probably felt the same way, you know, like, I mean, I was a conservative at cnn, so if you said cnn, I'd be like, that's not me. So I don't want to say that about everybody that works at cnn.

[A]

Yeah, we can't. But in general, but most the way, pretty much everybody there. Yeah. And obviously they have a very left leaning viewpoint and Fox News has a very right leaning viewpoint and, and Fox doesn't deny that. Yeah, but that's why CNN does deny.

[B]

That by the way.

[A]

They still do, don't they?

[B]

Which is in some ways you can respect MSNBC more than CNN because they're honest about their own bias and their own opinions.

[A]

And they've held people accountable recently too with the journalists, with Charlie Kirk who they fired the very next day.

[B]

Yeah, they're still full of wingnuts.

[A]

They're still, I mean, still have the Maddows out there. Yeah.

[B]

At least they're honest about their wingnuts.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. One of my favorite things was the news that you were getting your show here in Texas and in Dallas and Your house is 15, 20 minutes away from here and you're. Where you grew up is an hour or so from here. Right when you got that green light from Fox, what did that mean? I can't imagine hearing any boss I've ever had say, sage, where do you want to go? What do you want that to look like? I mean.

[B]

You have, oh my gosh, I didn't even See, you sneak that over there. That's.

[A]

You have like, what is this wrapping paper with your face on it in your own massive, beautiful. Like, this is a Will Kane design studio.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Do you ever. Do you ever just look around at this?

[B]

It's incredible. It really is. It's awesome. No, I mean, so sage, you know, And I'm sure you did this with your career, and I did. Like, how do I want this to happen? And if I do this, maybe I can put it into this, and then this will happen. And then this is what I. I let go of that about five years ago when I joined fox. Pretty much when I joined fox, I was like, I'm just gonna appreciate the job that I have. I know. I appreciated Fox and Friends at espn. It was like, am I gonna get. Am I ever gonna be full time on First Take? Am I gonna get this radio show? You know? And you're kind of doing this thing and you're white knuckle, gripping a steering wheel, which you really don't have control over. You don't have control over the decisions the bosses make. So, yeah, I kind of let go of that, and I just did my job, did the best I could.

[A]

You did it well.

[B]

And that's when. That's kind of when I got the call. Like, when I let go.

[A]

Isn't that amazing? Is that faith related at all? Is that the professional in you, or is there. Is there a.

[B]

That's God. That's God.

[A]

No. I mean, yes, I think we can look and say, oh, that God did that. But when you were in it, when you were, you know, just letting go of control, is it, let go, let God. Or is it something that you realize afterwards, like, wow, look what God did afterwards, after.

[B]

Because I didn't even. I wasn't wishing. I wasn't saying God. I'm putting it in your hands. I wasn't doing that. I was just like, okay, just hit Zen, man. Just do it. And not that Zen.

[A]

Z, E, N. Okay.

[B]

I was commuting. I decided to move to New Texas. It was Covid interrupted life. I lived in Dallas. I've been here for five years. I only got the show in January, and I was flying to New York every weekend, missing.

[A]

Missing all the boys stuff.

[B]

Friday night football games, missing Saturday and Sunday soccer games, missing social life. Like, that whole thing you do. I mean, my life was weekdays and work. And weekdays are not the same as weekends. I know, because I've got them back now. I know what a weekend feels like. But when they called Me and said that I couldn't. I couldn't believe it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I wasn't angling. And Pete and I used to talk about this together. Like, hey, you think ever. You know, maybe, you know, you could do it from Texas, and I could do it from Tennessee. He was living in Tennessee. I'm. Nah. We were like, nah. And then they called and said, and we want you to do it from Dallas. We have an idea for you. We'd like you to do 4pm and we want you to do it from Dallas. And I'm. Don't mess with me. Suzanne.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Are you serious?

[A]

What did your boy say? Knowing that dad would be home again.

[B]

I didn't tell.

[A]

On weekends, I didn't tell.

[B]

I didn't tell my wife.

[A]

What?

[B]

I waited because I had to make sure it was real.

[A]

You didn't believe it.

[B]

You know, this business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I was like, let's make sure it's real. And I don't know what. They're gonna change their minds. What are they gonna do? Until I could tell it was getting close, and I was on a walk with my wife, and I remember telling her I was excited to tell her, and she dropped to the ground on the walk.

[A]

She's like, you're kidding.

[B]

Yeah, it was awesome.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the boys.

[B]

Yeah, I don't remember them. They're teenage boys. It's probably cool.

[A]

Thanks, dad. Have they seen this?

[B]

I don't know if they've seen that.

[A]

That might be the key to them finally thinking that you've made it. And I hear that you got a key to Sherman, Texas, recently. Key to the city.

[B]

I heard you did.

[A]

Thanks, Ellie.

[B]

I heard you did a pre interview. Yeah, last Friday. That. Like that. That's that. I am always and forever from Sherman, Texas. I live in Dallas, but I am from Sherman, Texas. That hometown is who I am. It's who my family is. It's where my roots are. It's my people. Those are my people. And for them to give me the key to the city. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you could kind of actually, you can kind of hang it up. I mean, I'm not. I'm not. There's no more. I don't. I don't need an Emmy. How about that? I got the key to Sherman, Texas.

[A]

That is beautiful, Will. You have. You've done it your way. You really have. And I feel like you've never compromised your value. Like I witnessed it. You've never compromised your values along the way, and you fell on Your face, you got back up. You trusted your gut. You had enough confidence. You went through tragedy like you've really seen and done it all in such a non traditional route. What do you want when people look back and I get to say, well, I knew him when. Right. But what do you want people to always remember about you long after this show is off the air and that kid from Sherman, Texas, did it?

[B]

I've never thought about. Well, I've never really thought about that answer because there's a lot left to do.

[A]

There's a lot.

[B]

There's a lot left to do. I hope this story is not even at halftime yet. And the other thing is, man, people ask Charlie that question, and he answered it so well that you're like, how do you match what Charlie Kirk says? I want to be remembered for my faith. What I will say about is I just want to be real. That's it. You. I respect you so much professionally and personally, and the kindness and the compliments that you've given me, not just in this sitting, has meant a lot to me. And I hope that in the end, what you think is I'm real, that you know me, that I'm not hiding a ball. I'm not trying to be somebody different. That'll be me sharing my opinions to some extent. That'll be me sharing my faith, which is not a lot of. I haven't done that a lot like other people, but I definitely want to have that reality apparent to people because it is important to me, and I want to be real with every person I interact with. So, yeah, I don't know.

[A]

In other words, continue exactly as you are because you're already, like, if you weren't doing it that way, I'd be like, oh, he changed. Because that's how you've always done it. That's how I've known you from day one. I hope that you. Yeah. That it is not even halftime. We're gonna be stuck with you for a long time, and I hope that you do like you. You're a machine and you're going. And you're doing two shows now. It's Will Kane country podcast as well. Right.

[B]

Y.

[A]

But look at this. Not many people have this. It's yours.

[B]

Where do you go from here?

[A]

The governor's mansion in Austin, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I don't know. But, like, no one gave you this, and that's the key. They don't do these kind of favors in our sick little industry, you know, you earned it, and well done.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Sage thank you for giving up your night to talk about all this and for putting fuzzy sauce.

[B]

I don't even know how long we've been here, but I appreciate it, every minute of it. Thank you.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you. Thank.