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1 in 5 of Your Friends Are Narcissists | Dr. Ramani Durvasula
01:57:47
This conversation with Dr. Ramani Durvasula will change how you see your relationships. You'll discover the hidden patterns keeping you trapped in cycles of confusion, self-doubt, and walking on eggshells with the people closest to you.
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Host - Promotional Announcer
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Lewis Howes
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
If you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. This is a disorder of self loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves but then they put.
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Lewis Howes
It on other people.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But I project it onto other people.
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Lewis Howes
See, narcissists are miserable.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They're miserable. Miserable.
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Lewis Howes
Today I am joined by one of.
- [02:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The world's leading experts on narcissism and narcissistic abuse. She hosts the award winning podcast Navigating Narcissism.
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Lewis Howes
Dr. Ramani Darvasala so how do you create boundaries with a narcissist?
- [02:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's not easy. The key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early. If you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like get away from them. This is dangerous.
- [02:24]
Lewis Howes
But are there some people that are charming, charismatic who aren't narcissistic?
- [02:27]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, but I'm like I'm all about Throwing the baby out with the bathroom. It's unfortunately a one in five. You date five people. What are the odds?
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Lewis Howes
Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible?
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love?
- [02:41]
Lewis Howes
Is that possible?
- [02:42]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So the.
- [02:46]
Lewis Howes
Welcome back, everyone, to the school of greatness. We have Dr. Ramany in the house. Very excited. Thank you for being here.
- [02:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Thank you.
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Lewis Howes
You have been doing intensive work on psychology and specifically about narcissism more recently. And really your. Your content has been blowing up online.
- [03:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Thanks.
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Lewis Howes
You've got an amazing book out called don't know who I am.
- [03:07]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Don't you know who I am?
- [03:08]
Lewis Howes
Don't you know who I am? How to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement and incivility.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
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Lewis Howes
And why is narcissism such a. A big topic, especially right now in our society?
- [03:24]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's interesting. It wasn't for a very long time. I mean, this is. It's fascinating to have been studying something when nobody cared about it. Like, I was like, you weren't a nerd when I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about. And everyone drives, literally back room of a lab, and everyone forgot about me. I was content because I'm a nerd. I've geeked out. I was like, this is fascinating. And then a lot of things happened. You know, if anyone ever asked me, this is my theory on it is. I think it's interesting. There's a book from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lasch called the Culture of Narcissism. And in that book he really gets. And this is the 70s, okay. And he really gets into issues like materialism and also the falling apart of American community structures and family structures. And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures. But I think that misses something. Then it was kind of quiet. Like, this has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in mental health. And then reality TV happened. Social media happened.
- [04:29]
Lewis Howes
You had to witness it all.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, and we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now.
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Lewis Howes
Political dramas and fights and lots of.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And materialism was on the rise. So when we look at materialism, social media and reality tv, that kind of triple threat where everything was about shameless self promotion, everything was about validation seeking. Look at me. No, look at me. No, look at me. My life's better than yours. And it was that. I'll never forget the day actually I was when someone told me about social media, it was in that space between MySpace and Facebook.
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Lewis Howes
Yeah.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And I had small, small children at the time. And I think I was up late and somebody said, you gotta look at this thing called Facebook. Right. And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And so at the time I was even married. So I've really no social life. And I look at it and I'm. And it's that moment, that penny drop moment where I could feel that dread in my stomach as though like a ghost appeared in the door. And I thought to myself, oh my God, this narcissism thing is about to blow up. Because before that, think about it, if you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house, right? Like no one was going to. You had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work, especially men in that era. And then other people like, would get it by like going to social events, going to parties, maybe succeeding at something, but it was a different game.
- [05:58]
Lewis Howes
Going to the gym, maybe you're maybe.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Going to the gym. But now all of it excelling at something visible like sports or performing or like singing or something like that. But then I was like, oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are going to be able to get validation just sitting at home. And I thought, this narcissism thing's going to blow up. That was 2008. When I had that revelation, I started telling people, you know, people said like, oh honey, you're just, you're running off in your head, get some sleep, like you're acting crazy. And I said, no, no, no, this is gonna blow up. And then it blew up. And at around that time, we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows like Survivor and things like that. I'm like, this is interesting. And then we'd start seeing more and more and more of the attention seeking, reality TV housewife type shows and Bachelor. A Bachelor. And I thought, oh no, no, no. And then the political winds changed and the into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you studied, very few, nobody cared about it.
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Lewis Howes
And then all of a sudden it's mainstream.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It changed and it became mainstream. Exactly. But another thing that was happening too is this. I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at personality issues because I was working with folks who were working in community clinics. And they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say. And they would look frazzled. And I say, hey, what's. And they'll say, some of these patients, they're so terrible and they're ruining everyone's lives. And what we came to find out was that there were some patients who come in entitled and grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, that's interesting. These people are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good healthcare to other people. They themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them, so they're not getting good healthcare. And then a few years later, I was noticing a pattern in my patients over and over again. It's like they were all talking about the same relationship. And I thought, this is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism because this is clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you, once they got educated on these patterns, they were making changes like this. Some were getting divorced, some were splitting up, Some were saying, I'm gonna set boundaries. Wow. I mean, it was insta change. And they said, we were in couples therapy for five years, and always about marriage is hard. You gotta communicate. Like communicating with the narcissist is. I don't know, it's like it's impossible. Screaming into an abyss like, there's no point.
- [08:20]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Wow.
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Lewis Howes
So is there hope for people in marriages if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, to actually heal the relationship and improve it, or is it just going to be hard the rest of your life?
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Going on a probability basis, the answer is no. I think it's going to be hard always. Are there unicorns out there?
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Lewis Howes
Sure.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic, I mean, we're talking about daily.
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Lewis Howes
Commitment on the person who is a narcissist.
- [08:47]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Then the person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever's on their mind. It's fascinating because I have worked with, I'd say 25% of the clients I've worked with in my clinical practice for a long time now have been narcissistic.
- [09:11]
Lewis Howes
Why would they even come to work with you if they're narcissistic?
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Because something's going wrong in their lives. Their marriage is blowing up. They're having some sort of public shame. Their career isn't going well.
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Lewis Howes
They have to.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They feel the world is against them. And in this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy in somebody's wanting to complain. Right. Every so often, they're given an ultimatum, maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone. Maybe they get caught in an affair. And then they're told that wife or husband or partner or spouse will say, we're not staying together unless you get therapy, which is a fool's errand. Because if they're. If someone else is telling them to do it, even if someone. Even if they do it on their. There usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change.
- [09:56]
Lewis Howes
Personality doesn't change. Unless you're, like, doing therapy every week and holding yourself accountable on even that.
- [10:01]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Listen, I'm. Listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed. I'm a little bit more. I'm a little bit more confident now. That's not my personality. That's just time served.
- [10:14]
Lewis Howes
Right. You know, it's like, I put in more reps.
- [10:16]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes. Yeah, I put in more reps. So I'm like, now I know I can do this thing right? But it's not that I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I was an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person. That's just who I am.
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Lewis Howes
When is our personality shaped?
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, there's two pieces of personality. We're born. The genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament.
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Lewis Howes
Our temperament.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Temperament.
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Lewis Howes
You're born and you're either a crier or not a crier, or you're.
- [10:42]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I can make it ultra simple. Like, you know, there's some kids out there who have really difficult temperaments. They're born into the world difficult. Talk to a parent. They're kids who are difficult to soothe, to make them stop crying, to help them sleep as time goes on. They're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy, fighty. They get to school, they can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble, and none of the adults like them. So these kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, sit down, stop that. Don't do that. And there's even this vibe these kids get, like, nobody really wants to spend time with them because they're real handful.
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Lewis Howes
Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really change that when you're five.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No, you can't. But the difficult temperament's a risk factor for the adult narcissistic personality. Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk. But it's definitely. When we tell that story backwards. Every narcissistic client I've ever worked with, without exception, had a difficult temperament as a child. So that either they. Every so often I'd get lucky. They. We'd phone the parent during therapy and say, can we talk about this? Sometimes they ask the parent, and the parent would come clean on that and say, yeah, you were a real. Because you had siblings. Right. So they'd compare them to siblings. Some siblings have this great, easy temperament. It's not quite so temperament is that biological part of our personality. It's how you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle. You'll say, wow, I have such a similar personality to them. That's. That's the genetic. All the rest of it is shaped.
- [12:18]
Lewis Howes
By the world environment, parents, society, how you were treated and what you're exposed to.
- [12:23]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Exactly.
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Lewis Howes
So if you had a, let's say, a challenging temperament growing up, is there hope for you to, I guess, shift your personality into a different style with environment?
- [12:36]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I think so. I think so. I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met where they're at. So let's say you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy, and you get them intact athletics, or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that, and you really are with them instead of saying, you're being so bad, you're so difficult, like, whoa, look at that rocket you built. Or like, oh, my Gosh, you ran 10 miles today, or you threw the ball. Or like, this is great, let's do it together. And they have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. I've heard of some. This is where it's interesting. I hear a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climb mountains, that kind of thing. And sometimes the parents got them into these things because the kid was just a bolus. Of energy. And then they would. And then the parents would really encourage them, might even go with them, like, with them or whatever. So I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, they feel like they have a safe base to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver. They can relax and they have success experiences. Right. So maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they're really, like, they feel loved no matter what. Whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not, they're loved. And that they have these other outlets and that the school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know who have that things line up like that? I can count on one hand the number of kids I know who got that lineup.
- [14:00]
Lewis Howes
You mean who had, like, all the support.
- [14:02]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Love, we love you no matter what.
- [14:03]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. It's very challenging. It's interesting because I interviewed Kobe Bryant before he passed, obviously. And he said his father, one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13, he said he didn't score one point the whole summer in this summer competition league. And he said, my father told me, no matter what, I'm gonna love you. Whether you score zero points or you're the highest scorer. I'm gonna love you no matter what you do, no matter how good or how bad you are. I love you no matter what. And he said that that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, I'm gonna go out and go for it no matter what happens. I'm loved is the way he explained it. And I thought that was interesting. But not a lot of people have had the school support and parent support and sleeping support and the encouragement. But it sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth.
- [15:02]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Is that right? So every human being has the same sort of essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting again. A safe base, a safe place of attachment, a sense of being loved no matter what. Yeah. Their behavior could be called out, like, no, you cannot tear up the living room. That behavior is not okay. I love you. I love you. Whether you get the 13 points or the no points, just like, you're still.
- [15:25]
Lewis Howes
Grounded, but I love you, you're still grounded.
- [15:27]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You know, I love you. You know? And so that sort of consistency and safety. But it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014, and in this paper, they were talking about, how do you basically, how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid one Thing we're seeing a little bit right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing. Celebrated for just being just celebrated for like you're just so great. And it's, you're saying, well, what should we tell kids if they're not great? Well, great means something, right? Great is excelling. So you love a child, you cultivate their strengths. But the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be. They're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over and you're all that, you're all that, you shouldn't, you're special. You shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world. Well, then they get to adulthood and, and the slings and arrows happen and they are not having it. And that's where you see that on top of everything else can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child. Just overindulge. And what happens is they're overindulged for their outsides and you're so special. But their emotional world isn't nourished. So nobody is sitting with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, come on, let's all be happy. You know, it's a lot of that. And that's a dangerous game to play with.
- [16:55]
Lewis Howes
Would you say with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy family, let's say it's they got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them, you know, discipline but love and all these things in the way that the best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated? Or how does it actually happen?
- [17:30]
Host - Promotional Announcer
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- [20:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So the problem, if you. If someone had all the fundamentals. Yes, Right. The safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma, Great values. The great values, all of those things. Supportive, educational environment, all of that. You still will have a handful, but you will have dropped a probability from here down to here. Right. It's a chorus race. Right. You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Narcissism is creating. Adult narcissism is a complex inter blend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood narcissism. At the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, you know, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse, because that results in inconsistent caregivers. Right. And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adulthood narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic. You see, the majority of people, we're talking about risk factors. You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over like, you're so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing. That's another model towards traumatic. I'm sorry, that's another model towards narcissistic personality development. Conditional love. Kobe Bryant's father. I'm only gonna love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up. Now imagine that happening a thousand times, ten thousand times. I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you. Whatever. The child learns that all love is conditional, which is really. That's transactional. Basically, all narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment. And attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life. It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One singular. You need that. That person who is there who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it. You need that safe. It's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment, that as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism.
- [23:05]
Lewis Howes
So if you have a severe classification.
- [23:07]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You'Re less likely if you don't have an anxious attachment. And an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy drops them off and they lose it, then person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again, almost like, how could you leave me?
- [23:29]
Lewis Howes
Abandoned me for five hours?
- [23:31]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with the narcissistic style in adulthood. Yeah.
- [23:39]
Lewis Howes
Can you break down the differences between narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and then also how you spot them?
- [23:49]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So there's a big difference. If I was at a chalkboard here, I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles. Okay? Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy. Lots. Okay. The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles, the exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement. Absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then, what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure, and they are very insecure. Very insecure. And lots of feelings of inadequacy. Okay? So. But that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomachache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like. They're. They. There's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that. The top's gonna get blown off and we're gonna be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism. Oh, my God. Like, if I were. Hey. Like. Yeah, it's interesting. You got some dust on your shirt, and you're like. Like, oh, really? And you start coming at me.
- [24:56]
Lewis Howes
I know you've got this on your. What are you talking about me criticizing you?
- [25:01]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against a shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure.
- [25:10]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Calm.
- [25:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system. And it. It's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know as fight or flight or freeze. And that. Fight, flight, freeze. And there's even a fourth part to it called Fawn, which we could talk about. But that, that autonomic reaction that like, boom. Adrenaline got, you know, eyes wide open kind of reaction, that's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I, I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone had a hundred dollar bill hanging out their wallet. Never could I ever, like, I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like, no. You know, because I have a very probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate wouldn't.
- [25:59]
Lewis Howes
They would not think. They're just nothing. Take it, steal it.
- [26:02]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And so they have no anxiety, no excitement around it. No excitement, no anxiety. And they're very stress resistant. And that way. That's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're going to be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say, cut those hundred thousand jobs and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell is breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is. But there is a coldness and a callousness.
- [26:30]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
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Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy.
- [26:36]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [26:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure and profit, and mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopaths.
- [26:51]
Lewis Howes
Really.
- [26:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy the psychopaths don't.
- [27:13]
Lewis Howes
They're not insecure.
- [27:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They're not insecure. No. I mean, if you see a psychopath get mad, it's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get done. You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you.
- [27:26]
Lewis Howes
Get rid of it.
- [27:27]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Exactly. Or they'll calmly have someone say, like, I'll literally look at you. If I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like. And I'd be calm and I'd go. And then I don't know whether that means you'd kill them, fire them or whatever, but no problem with that. And very.
- [27:42]
Lewis Howes
They don't have the emotion. They don't have empathy.
- [27:44]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No empathy.
- [27:45]
Lewis Howes
Does narcissists have empathy?
- [27:47]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Narcissists have. We tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call. I like to call it instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is.
- [27:58]
Lewis Howes
They know they use it against you.
- [28:01]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily use it against you, but, like, if they want to get you to do something. Oh, man. I heard your mom's sick.
- [28:10]
Lewis Howes
Oh, man.
- [28:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, my gosh. How's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like, it's rough, you know, my mom was sick. She. She was really sick for a while, too. I get all that. And then, you know, it's a rapport. And then they're getting something from you, right? So it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them. That's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic. They know what the fear. They know what's right, or I should say, they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it, but they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. I need something from him. Somebody said his mom's sick. So let me. Let me work the mom angle here, because that's going to help him feel better. What they don't have is any regard for. So they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you, and someone's. The next week when they're fully done with you and say, hey, his mom got sicker, and be like, yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? So it's very cold when they're done. And that's why people say, well, don't tell me they don't have empathy. Because it seemed like they cried at that movie or they were really understanding my feelings. Odds are they needed something at that point.
- [29:21]
Lewis Howes
So what was the most. The scariest narcissist. What was it called? Or the most dangerous, malignant narcissist? Okay, so can you explain again what that. What that is?
- [29:33]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So let's talk about. Let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay? And the inner core of narcissism is this variable, empathy. Usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they, they come at them blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what, you know, what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self serving, insecure, deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it. It's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy. So nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that well, then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? But it is actually fascinating to watch that moment. If you could put it in slow mo. When the shame gets activated. I don't know, they don't get the girl or they don't get the guy or they don't get the job. And the rage, it just, it pops out like that. Oh man, he's an idiot.
- [31:08]
Lewis Howes
I feel like, I feel like. I'm sorry I'm so reactive to this. Not in a negative way, but I feel I'm remembering many things in my life in many relationships. I have always wanted to do therapy with people. And in multiple relationships they were resistant, they never wanted to do it. They said, no, I'll never do therapy. So resistant, eventually getting into therapy. So it's so funny you're saying this because I feel like, I don't know, just having these flashbacks here, but. And everything you're saying here just seems like crazy to me. So I feel like maybe I might have been with some narcissist, maybe I haven't with everyone, but I'm wondering what attracted me to maybe some people that had this when originally I didn't know they had this. It didn't seem like they had these things. It seemed like, you know, they were loving and supportive and kind and generous. But the more you say these things, I'm just Like, okay, that's interesting. Just noticing.
- [32:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So with a narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are our presentations. Charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also.
- [32:28]
Lewis Howes
Can you have those things and not be narcissists?
- [32:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You can.
- [32:31]
Lewis Howes
Because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know?
- [32:34]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. And when you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being.
- [32:45]
Lewis Howes
Like, you know, someone who is confident and kind.
- [32:48]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I literally, I'm like, all right, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look goo goo eyes. Cause I'm thinking. And then of course, I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm gonna find what's with it. Every so often I find it and I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity. There's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers and I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous up front. You know, all. It's all a front game. Right. So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense. Sense, and you miss Amazing. Yeah. And people. And if you either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it.
- [33:45]
Lewis Howes
You just.
- [33:46]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, yeah, you know, he's got a big job, or she's really stressed, or she doesn't mean that, or that's just their culture.
- [33:53]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. You just said that. Someone I was with was like, well, this is my culture.
- [33:57]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No, no. Unless your.
- [33:59]
Lewis Howes
This is my culture.
- [34:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No. And I probably no empathy.
- [34:02]
Lewis Howes
Like, it makes no sense to me.
- [34:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Like, I've heard that excuse. And I get to say this because I'm from a very different culture. And I'll say, oh, no, I do not know. A culture where meanness is permitted. And to say to that person, if that's your culture, then go with God.
- [34:17]
Lewis Howes
Exactly. Because working at someone and being angry and not regulating your emotions is not a culture.
- [34:22]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's not a culture. And. But yet. But yet. I'm amazed at how often I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain Cultures. Right. And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only. It's contemptuous interrupting.
- [34:48]
Lewis Howes
What's that mean?
- [34:49]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Like dismissive interrupting. Dismissive. Like. Okay, all right. You know, you're talking, and then I Not only cut in, but it's basically.
- [34:56]
Lewis Howes
Like your point of view doesn't matter, or. Yeah, you're. You're an idiot. I know what's. Really. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Okay, so you. You share some of these signs of malignant narcissism.
- [35:09]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No, that's. Okay, so let's go back to the core. We got the core of lack of empathy. All that stuff I talked about.
- [35:13]
Lewis Howes
Entitlement. Yes, yes.
- [35:15]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Now, the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.
- [35:18]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh.
- [35:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard, Neil. Like, I'd be writing notes up there. Because what we have then is the classical narcissist. The sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big, charming, confident, I'm the one. I'm the best. No insight, very little empathy kind of, but very, like, big salespersony. That's the grandiose narcissist.
- [35:49]
Lewis Howes
Grandiose. Someone who says when you meet them on the first day, I love you.
- [35:54]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [35:54]
Lewis Howes
They're often like, we're gonna be together forever.
- [35:56]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Once in a lifetime love story. This is magical, right? Is that.
- [36:02]
Lewis Howes
Oh, man, flashbacks for me.
- [36:04]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Grandiose. Okay, but then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff. Lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.
- [36:23]
Lewis Howes
What if they have both of those things?
- [36:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Usually they can. They can. And what would. That's a horrific combination, because then that person's real charming on the front end. And then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary, controlling. And when we see. Controlling. When we see manipulative narcissism. Manipulative. I'm sorry, Malignant narcissism. We're seeing people who are often. They're more. They're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories. A lot. Especially a lot in the MeToo era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists.
- [37:08]
Lewis Howes
Right. So how do you and Tyler. If we have a whiteboard in there, can you bring in one with a Sharpie or with a erase. Dry erase marker? I think we have a small whiteboard if you find one or see if Matt has one. So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your boss. Didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things, but the first six months seemed great, or it seemed like it was amazing. But now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them is not going to happen.
- [38:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's a fool therapy.
- [38:06]
Lewis Howes
So doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band aid and get out or how does it work?
- [38:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That simple. Right? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring out this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin and they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling? People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off for my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you said, rip off the band aid. So if you're. And neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse. And they found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them, completely blocking, cutting off. Because it's almost like a tie toxin. Right. If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate.
- [39:22]
Host - Promotional Announcer
If you have a little bit.
- [39:22]
Lewis Howes
You're just gonna be feeling a little bit of pain consistently, it's gonna be holding onto it.
- [39:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest. If you're gonna have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never gonna change.
- [39:36]
Lewis Howes
This is who they are.
- [39:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
This is who they are. This is it. So. And I. Then I tell people I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of. It's like you're in a deposition. Yes. No. Okay, Sounds good. Sure. Now, man, narcissists don't like that because.
- [40:16]
Lewis Howes
They love coming and digging and digging.
- [40:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They're going to bait you. They're going to bait you. And they. When I tell you when they bait you, they. They don't play.
- [40:23]
Lewis Howes
They go for every. Everything that's going to make something.
- [40:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Making stuff up. Kids, they start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it, threatening.
- [40:31]
Lewis Howes
To shame you publicly, whatever it is. Right.
- [40:33]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And so then at some people, people take that bait and then the narcissist, like, game on. On, you know, and there are. I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio Boy. And phenomenal study that came out this year. And over, over. Over 450 studies, they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very. It's. This is not. There's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter.
- [41:07]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh.
- [41:07]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And they want the fight. So they bait you. You gotta be made of steel. Don't defend, don't engage. Don't play crazy to not get into the fight.
- [41:15]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, I won't speak names here, but in a previous relationship I remember I learned to let go of jealousy. In my 20s, when I was in my teens and 20s, I was jealous. And, you know, if my girlfriend or the person I was dating was with other guys, I was just didn't know how to handle it right. I was afraid. I was like, oh, what's happening? It was just like, jealous. Then I remember a friend of mine was like, you've got to kill the jealousy monster inside of you. This is not serving you and your relationships. If someone cheats, you're going to find out about it, and then you move on or whatever. But being jealous about something that's not happening is just making you anxious and worried, and it's hurting you and it's hurting the relationship. So it took me a while, but I Learned in my 30s and in a specific relationship was with someone who got a lot of male attention, let's say a lot, always. And I was never. I never was insecure or jealous about it. I think I was just so confident. I was like, you know, whatever. I mean, this person was getting a lot of attention in public and in line or whatever they did, and I was just like, okay. Like, it never bothered me. And I don't know why. I think maybe just because I'm older and I'm in maturity, and I was just. I feel. I felt so confident. I was like, okay, if they want to go with someone else, go be with them. If I'm not the right fit for you, why would I be jealous and insecure? But they. It's almost like they always wanted me to react to something. And I was like, okay, if you want to be with them, go be with them.
- [42:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
All right.
- [42:44]
Lewis Howes
So, you know, and I never reacted. And they are always trying to be like, oh, this person took my number today. And this person. I was like, okay, well, what do you want?
- [42:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
There's a name for that. And that thing you're talking about is called triangulation.
- [42:56]
Lewis Howes
Triangulation.
- [42:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship. Whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me.
- [43:10]
Lewis Howes
This person DM me or this person is hitting on me.
- [43:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They're always trying to. And they're always trying to create that sense of. Of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're. Or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. So jealousy is Normal. We are a, actually, we're a pair bonded species. We human beings, we pretty much are about to generally normatively have sex with one person. People like, no, that person cheated on me. Said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous with one part of that. They weren't banging you, they were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You came, you went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay, but we tend to be pair bonded. We tend to be monogamous. All right, so jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person. If somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring. Right? That's all the Darwinian, Darwinian stuff.
- [44:31]
Lewis Howes
Reproduction, pathological jealousy.
- [44:33]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Pathological jealousy, though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and oh my gosh, and negative mood states and all that. Like, jealousy doesn't feel good. But I always, when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got skin in the game. Like, because when people I've been with, people worked with couples and, or worked with individuals, and they'll say, I'm not even jealous. When people notice my husband, I kind of feel sad because I'm, I'm like, yeah, this thing, this thing's kind of, kind of done.
- [45:00]
Lewis Howes
I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.
- [45:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's. Yeah, but that, that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically, on our, on my drive to. He was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were going to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the driver, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. And I'm like, huh, he doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling. I still got a dog in the fight.
- [45:33]
Lewis Howes
But it doesn't mean you're like for days letting it stress you out. And like, only we're talking about here, of course. Yeah. And so the paranoid jealousy is some.
- [45:44]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I mean, that's a narcissist thing.
- [45:45]
Lewis Howes
This is paranoid. Yeah. Okay. So I remember in this specific relationship, it was like she would make things up. She'd be like, oh, this person is hitting on you. And I was like, no, I don't even know this person is. And then would just be like, used against. And then was like, well, I'm not speaking to you for a couple days because I.
- [46:04]
Host - Promotional Announcer
You're.
- [46:04]
Lewis Howes
You're lying. You must be lying to. To me. You must not be telling me the truth. I'm like, what? It's just like. It kept going on and on. So, yeah, if you want to use this, if you have any examples next time.
- [46:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We have been. Yeah. For everyone.
- [46:13]
Lewis Howes
I think this will be. This would be cool to show on YouTube.
- [46:16]
Host - Promotional Announcer
People love this.
- [46:16]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [46:18]
Lewis Howes
Okay, so there's a little bit of jealousy is normal. It means you care. But the.
- [46:24]
Host - Promotional Announcer
What did you say?
- [46:24]
Lewis Howes
What's the paran.
- [46:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Paranoia. The pathological jealousy.
- [46:27]
Lewis Howes
Pathological jealousy?
- [46:28]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [46:29]
Lewis Howes
That's a narcissistic.
- [46:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's more of an. It's more paranoid. It's more antagonistic. It's more about. You must be doing something. You're doing something accusatory. It's almost delusional.
- [46:38]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. Okay. Just so much is coming up for me. And what would you say, again, are the main causes. What are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based?
- [46:56]
Host - Promotional Announcer
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- [49:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Quince.com Lewis no, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment, it's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong. And they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's gonna go down. We're about to see cause what Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world. Every moment being documented and shared. And since they were born, since they were born, this is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were. Because I had kids way before this so I did not. The only people saw their pictures were people actually friends and family. Put them in an envelope, mailed a picture kind of thing.
- [50:05]
Lewis Howes
I came over to the house, came.
- [50:06]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
To the house and looked the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents lives. Like look at my child this. Look at my child this. Look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.
- [50:19]
Host - Promotional Announcer
So Is it.
- [50:19]
Lewis Howes
Do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's, you know, special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever, 10?
- [50:33]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos, and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as, oh, no, it's so cute. Is it still. They didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So there's some. I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool. I'm not agreeing.
- [51:04]
Lewis Howes
What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me.
- [51:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But it goes beyond that, because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it.
- [51:21]
Lewis Howes
Posing and put these clothes on and.
- [51:22]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Do this, and let's post you in a public way.
- [51:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And then the child also gets this sense of their utility. Their importance to their parents is their social media Persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for.
- [51:40]
Lewis Howes
Them or for the validation?
- [51:42]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Is that for the validation for the likes of engagement? Yes, exactly.
- [51:46]
Lewis Howes
Man, that's tough because I have. I have friends who never show their kids stuff, and then I have friends who do show their kids. And, man, it's just like, yeah, how do we. How do we navigate that conversation?
- [52:01]
Host - Promotional Announcer
And how do we.
- [52:02]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We're building this airplane in the sky.
- [52:04]
Lewis Howes
Oh, man.
- [52:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other. Both parents. But also, I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media. Right. Cause what does every child want? They want their parents.
- [52:27]
Lewis Howes
Love, Attention. Love and attention.
- [52:28]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
All they want is their parents love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated. Then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interests, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful. And it doesn't all have to be documented. I've been with a psychologist. I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to what?
- [53:03]
Lewis Howes
Let's say there are parents that are posting about their kids online. You know, maybe they have a small following. Maybe it's to a private group of their friends and family.
- [53:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's kind of a different game.
- [53:15]
Lewis Howes
Or it's the ones that have a bigger following. If they were gonna be posting and they have a bigger following, let's say, not to their friends and family.
- [53:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Family.
- [53:23]
Lewis Howes
What would be appropriate that you think psychologically in a healthy manner, to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know, I think, not mess them up or, you know, being.
- [53:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Present with your children emotionally being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're gonna take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress. Someone is this. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finely laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of I am only about this person's finely laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not. It's how quickly we catch ourselves. That's not what they want. This is not. This is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the park. They want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like, I've been on vacation and I've watched families like practically, I mean, literally screaming, we need this life. Our grass mask car.
- [54:37]
Lewis Howes
And I'm like, oh, my God, pay attention. Look here.
- [54:39]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Look at them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal. Because all of that social comparison of people Wanting to put out the false self. And what is narcissism?
- [54:53]
Lewis Howes
False self Narcissism is the false self. It's a mask.
- [54:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's always a mask. Because it's the mask of what they think the world wants, how the world wants them to look. Which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures, they have the same bodies, they're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game. Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity.
- [55:19]
Lewis Howes
It's so interesting because four years ago I wrote a book called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about. And I interviewed a lot of psychologists and experts on these kind of personality traits and these masks that men wear. And I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks for many different years of my life, life, to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. One of them being like the, the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one. And if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs, I was like training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry, I would be like moody. I would be like frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better. Until I could make sure that, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong. But it's, it's not the authentic self.
- [56:34]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. And that, I mean that's. Maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self. Because it's such a big conversation when we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right, the humanistic psychologist and even other humanists like Abraham Maslow. So these were the big players in that humanistic universe, this idea of authenticity and self actualization. So if you were to view human growth as a mountain, self actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime, I've met five self actualized people and it was unforgettable and they Were always old. And I think it's hard to self actualize when you're younger. And they were deeply authentic. I mean, like you did feel like you were in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. Like one was a man who was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now.
- [57:23]
Lewis Howes
What did that feel like?
- [57:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Absolute serenity. I felt it. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep listening to him. This was a man with almost no education who again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg. And actually in a pretty, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was Joy, like he was just human joy. And it's not cause he was laughing, but he was so proud of what. And anyone looking at it would be like, there's not a lot happening here. But it was this genuine, authentic, like, please come into my. Look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was same thing, Joy. And that man, that Johannesburg man, I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him. We were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer. And it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day. And it was hot and there were flies. It was uncomfortable and he was magnificent. And it wasn't just the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right?
- [58:48]
Host - Promotional Announcer
In service.
- [58:49]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But he was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more, I want what they have, someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg. This other man I'm still in touch with. And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves, fully opposite. What a life. Like what a gorgeous Life.
- [59:30]
Lewis Howes
You mentioned the deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get your point across? If you need to get it across, you don't.
- [59:49]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You don't, you can't. So sometimes I tell people, okay, but do we.
- [59:55]
Lewis Howes
Life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way, not with them. So that we should just rip the bandage. You know what I mean?
- [60:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Not necessarily. We can't. Right. So like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting of the narcissist, we're gonna give the other parent fault to custody. Not happening. State of California. 50 50. All right. Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50% of the time, and I don't want them with that influence 50% of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I don't know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till the end of the day and then at 18, those kids are free agents. So there's no. No one can say you have to be here, you have to stay here, you have to celebrate this holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots.
- [60:56]
Lewis Howes
So how do you. So you just have to have extreme patience.
- [61:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I feel like it's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance.
- [61:06]
Lewis Howes
This thing sounds exhausting.
- [61:08]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Is getting it. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. Change. You ever spend time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago.
- [61:18]
Lewis Howes
Oh, it's miserable.
- [61:19]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You running? Are you going to go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt?
- [61:22]
Lewis Howes
No. Unless you're crazy.
- [61:23]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Yeah.
- [61:23]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay.
- [61:24]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [61:24]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Why? Because in February in Chicago, it's cold. Radical acceptance.
- [61:28]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. So you just accept it, right?
- [61:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to an artage. So I tell people. There's another concept I use is something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument True north are those things that you're gonna fight for because they're so. They're important to your core values, so who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to, I don't know, prejudicial language. True north gets activated, and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves. They pull out the earrings. They pull out the earrings and then they're in. They're just. They'll go at it. It is exhausting.
- [62:11]
Lewis Howes
Nothing good happens, though.
- [62:11]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Ramani, so I could live with myself to know that I fought for myself, I stood up. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or, why were you late to the party? Or, why were you rude to my sister? Or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, it's. You know what happens, though, is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's no there. There's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, huh?
- [62:56]
Lewis Howes
But that's. I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?
- [63:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests.
- [63:02]
Lewis Howes
Can you actually. Can you love a narcissist, or is it impossible to love?
- [63:05]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Narcissist?
- [63:06]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me. It means different things to the people out in the street. So the. And that's the bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love?
- [63:19]
Lewis Howes
Is that possible?
- [63:20]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It depends.
- [63:21]
Lewis Howes
Besides loving themselves, what is cold to you, right?
- [63:24]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You're in short sleeves. I'm in a sweater. You know, so it's a subjective word. So can it. Lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, I love this person. They represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it is very representational. We love what they stand for, we love what we believe they are. But we don't know. Maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So, you know, Again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, I do. They'll. Parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. Like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them. Sure, but love is much more metaphysical.
- [64:10]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, of course.
- [64:11]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right.
- [64:11]
Lewis Howes
So what's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist, then?
- [64:15]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That they love themselves?
- [64:17]
Lewis Howes
They don't love themselves.
- [64:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, hell no. It's self loathing. This is a disorder of self loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity they hate, but then they put it on other people, projected onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. They're talking about themselves.
- [64:38]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh.
- [64:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sometimes you just want to give them a hug.
- [64:40]
Lewis Howes
See, narcissists are miserable.
- [64:41]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They're miserable, miserable, miserable. It's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them.
- [64:54]
Lewis Howes
They have to live with it.
- [64:54]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The universe wins on that one. Like, they have to keep being them. It is a imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this? And how come this? And they're constantly anxious, they're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out together. That's a very difficult way to live.
- [65:15]
Lewis Howes
Their nervous system must be always heightened, too.
- [65:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Kind of. Kind of, yeah. Different than their psychopathic cousins there, who doesn't feel it.
- [65:21]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [65:22]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. But narcissists, really, really. It's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like. They always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.
- [65:32]
Lewis Howes
And so what are the signs then? If you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see, like, oh, maybe they might have one parent who's narcissistic.
- [65:41]
Host - Promotional Announcer
What would you be.
- [65:42]
Lewis Howes
What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic?
- [65:47]
Host - Promotional Announcer
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- [66:29]
Lewis Howes
We've run out so quickly.
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- [67:20]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I don't think when let's say a child is anyone under 13, I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're in around middle school or high school. Selfishness. Inattentive. Real inattentiveness.
- [67:34]
Lewis Howes
Dismissiveness.
- [67:35]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Dismissiveness. Devaluation of their emotions. Shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them. Devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college. Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior.
- [67:57]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [67:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Rage. Rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought. Anger. Anger. But rage like that walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent, probably dealing with an antagonistic account. A narcissistic parent.
- [68:12]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked in eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different Relationships where I felt that way, which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet, or I hadn't learned to.
- [68:36]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But you didn't jump into a relationship.
- [68:37]
Lewis Howes
I didn't feel that at the beginning.
- [68:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You didn't feel it at the beginning.
- [68:39]
Lewis Howes
But it was not like six to 12 months later. When I was younger, then I justified. Oh, let's just get back to where it was.
- [68:45]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships. Give it to me. Is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists. Why is that? And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps.
- [69:11]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [69:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna. You're gonna do the Sunday workout. You're gonna go to the gym at 4 in the morning. That's it. Right? And so the more in. You had this belief you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk. Talk to them harder. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be more clear.
- [69:29]
Lewis Howes
I'm gonna More giving.
- [69:32]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Everything becomes a workout.
- [69:34]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. This is what I did in the last 10 years, in every relationship last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it never felt enough. And it was always draining. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize. But I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my. Like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve. Because I'm an athlete, right? I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted you. I was just like, I think women would kill for this. You know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them, not a narcissistic woman. Oh, my gosh.
- [70:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become. Right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away.
- [70:29]
Lewis Howes
No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here, I'll support, I'll do this. And then it just. It drains your energy.
- [70:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Athletes, entrepreneurs, or anyone who's a doer. And it's worked for them. They're screwed.
- [70:44]
Lewis Howes
It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist talks about. It's like I started to really realize, like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this one of your recent videos. Like, the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative. And when I realized, like, it shouldn't feel like. It should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work.
- [71:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No.
- [71:10]
Lewis Howes
Otherwise I'd rather be single, if that's the way it is.
- [71:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Exactly. And I think that that. And I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy, where therapists say to them, it's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no, it's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know that that's hard work. Because they sat and watched your French film with you.
- [71:31]
Lewis Howes
It's just an uncomfortable moment.
- [71:32]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I'm just gonna read my book while you watch your football game. I guess we're good.
- [71:36]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, it's fine. I can show up for a few hours.
- [71:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's not hard work. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind. Right again. Every healthy relationship. Every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regardless, reciprocity, respect, Every, Every, every single one. And as long as you got that flexibility. Flexibility. No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So, yeah, they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to make a bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar. Good luck with that.
- [72:18]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. It's just bringing me back to so much, so many realizations. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship if the person is not a narcissist? Like, maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was, or whatever it is, and you have some pts from those experiences. And you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Like, is the shoe gonna drop when you know the person isn't a narcissist? How long does that take to find out?
- [72:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are, in the sense that the difference is narcissists. Actually, there's red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person. Watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great. Because that's a great example of a stress. Right. How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work. And listen, what's the worst is gonna happen? We'll get rebooked. And they're calm and like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out.
- [73:26]
Lewis Howes
To make the most of them.
- [73:28]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Yeah.
- [73:28]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We'll go to an airport hotel if you have to find. Well, we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport. Oh, oh, no, no, no, no. What happened? And it just. It's just. I'm not gonna curse, but it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Like that. That's the narcissist, right? Whereas with the. With somebody, you watch them. And that doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing, it's the presence, it's the mindfulness, it's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed to meet you halfway, to listen to you and more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you. So not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go up to this person and you're like, hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? You whereas everybody else, and not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean More time away, and you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road. And you're like, oh, my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams.
- [74:49]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. Bringing back so many memories to me.
- [74:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's the key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something. And I'm going a little off topic, but you're off topic, guy. You can handle it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon, and it's a big relationship theory.
- [75:04]
Lewis Howes
Is there a graph for this? I was gonna say I want to use the chart.
- [75:07]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I'm trying the sustained chart.
- [75:08]
Lewis Howes
At some point, I want to use this.
- [75:11]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So the Michelangelo phenomenon is this idea that the one person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Do we need to. To. Should we, like, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? You know, do. Should we move closer in, like, because I see. Or. Or, you know, it can be simple. As simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast. It's like, it's seeing that something bigger.
- [75:53]
Lewis Howes
In the person that's a good thing.
- [75:55]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.
- [75:57]
Lewis Howes
That's a good thing.
- [75:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that. Because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, go be your best you is secure enough to say, I'm not going to lose you. I see all the good in you.
- [76:12]
Lewis Howes
And I want the best for you.
- [76:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And I want the best for you, and I believe in you, and I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make. Make sacrifice things like, I know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months, and I may not see you, and that's okay, because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. Never.
- [76:32]
Lewis Howes
What's the opposite of that narcissistic relationship? Because I. Man, I think I've. I'm just having so many realizations here. But I. In the previous, I would say, 10 years of my relationship, I think I was just really good at choosing specific people because I was always, like. I always saw the masterpiece. I said, You're a masterpiece. And I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts. But there was, like, some insecurities with some of them, not all of them. And they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all them. It was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking, what they don't have, and wanting to put their intention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year I was training to become. To make the USA national team was a dream of mine. To go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball, which is a big sport in Europe, not that big in usa. I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple years of a journey. This was 10 years ago. And I remember I showed her, my girlfriend at the time. I go, I just got called up on the national Team. And I'm like, getting kind of emotional, just chills now, back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me. She just kind of went back into God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do, and I wish I was this. And I was just like, bingo, right there. Just, okay, well, yeah, let me come back and help you. I kind of put my attention back on, like, you know, you're going to get these things going, and, you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing. I had this happen at one of my big events one time. I host this annual event called the Summit of Greatness. And a relationship at a time made it all about them at the event, that I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what? Let me pause on my event for two hours to give the attention to this person. And I was always trying to see the masterpiece, but it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me.
- [78:48]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right? Yeah. I mean, but that's the idea that that ego. And it's interesting, not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch. They may just have more of the low grade insecurity that so many people are playing plagued by. Right. Insecurity doesn't mean narcissism. Right. Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there. Then again, it was talking about self actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you.
- [79:27]
Host - Promotional Announcer
What?
- [79:27]
Lewis Howes
Because it's just draining.
- [79:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [79:29]
Lewis Howes
If it's just one person. Right.
- [79:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you.
- [79:33]
Lewis Howes
Oh, yeah, man. This is crazy. So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and are supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you.
- [80:02]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And she's happy for you.
- [80:03]
Lewis Howes
She's happy for me.
- [80:04]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It has to be a two way street.
- [80:06]
Lewis Howes
She's like, you're crazy. You know, she admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful.
- [80:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key though, because that ability to sort of co. Like again, to have that co Located growth, that Michelangelo, if you will. In essence, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day. And you're both sculpting that for the other.
- [80:35]
Lewis Howes
Oh my gosh, it's beautiful.
- [80:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You know, but that's again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the theme show. Like, everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. They can. So they can be the only great one in a relationship.
- [80:52]
Lewis Howes
Really? Yeah. So is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?
- [81:01]
Host - Promotional Announcer
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- [83:16]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Happens because it kind of gets water supply for everybody else. They're like, here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing like this kind of they're all about the they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy. But in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship very one partner very wealthy, very powerful, very successful, the other one very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this One looks good with them. It all looks good together.
- [83:57]
Lewis Howes
Compliment each other.
- [83:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Ish. Compliment's a strong word the first time. This one, though, might look someplace else because this one's a narcissist person. This person, the powerful one, it's narcissistic. May notice someone else. This person's gonna blow up because they're doing their beautiful thing full time, and they're like, how can someone be more.
- [84:14]
Lewis Howes
Beautiful if you're not looking at me? Obsessed with then. And that gives me all the attention.
- [84:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Lots of jealousy, lots of volatility. Lots of, me, me, me. Lots of egocentricity. Lots of. On social media, it's like, I'm so blessed. Hashtag love my person. Hashtag best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that. Cause I'm like, ooh, yeah, there we go. You know, Another narcissist, super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship, but it's very superficial, very volatile. No empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional. That. That's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's are, as long as none of them have kids. Because that's a real buffer on the kids.
- [84:58]
Lewis Howes
You're a messed.
- [84:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [84:59]
Lewis Howes
You're traumatized.
- [85:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up, either they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good. It's not a good luck.
- [85:12]
Lewis Howes
I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed.
- [85:15]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [85:16]
Host - Promotional Announcer
How many.
- [85:16]
Lewis Howes
What's the percentage. How many. What's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even.
- [85:24]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay, so here's. Here's where it gets interesting. So let's. Let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the word narcissistic. The term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it, but because it's a mistake to use that languaging. And I'll tell you why. Narcissistic personality disorder, okay? Npd. So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship, or I've got this boss, and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down, sister. Okay? Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me. I'll be honest with you, if I have a client in my office, usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with, a disorder.
- [86:08]
Lewis Howes
Because you could have narcissistic personality traits.
- [86:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct.
- [86:11]
Lewis Howes
Different than.
- [86:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff. You don't want to.
- [86:15]
Lewis Howes
It could be like. More like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits. As opposed to.
- [86:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's more complex than that because it's. That in order to give someone a diagnosis and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DNA. In order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves. Like, we call it subjective distress. Like, depressed people are like. They're like, I'm miserable. I can't. I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed. That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of. Right. It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around with it. I'm the one, I'm the guy. I'm the one. I'm the best. Look how great I am.
- [87:13]
Lewis Howes
Money, I've got success. I've got the girl. Whatever it is, it's working for them.
- [87:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So everything's working for them. So that's both objective decisions.
- [87:20]
Host - Promotional Announcer
No.
- [87:20]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [87:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases, they may be having trouble at work, and then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making bank at work, they got a partner and a side piece, like, everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives.
- [87:43]
Lewis Howes
Oh, yeah.
- [87:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social. We can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Make sense?
- [87:53]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [87:53]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It has to be in the. It has to be that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time, or, I got a dui. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment. Or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's. Okay, so now let's go to the numbers. Cause the epidemiological studies are studies that tell. Tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder. Gotcha. So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6%.
- [88:36]
Lewis Howes
Okay, that's people who are diagnosed with this.
- [88:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Diagnosed with this. Okay, so they've gone into research, study.
- [88:40]
Lewis Howes
Most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions. And so what do you.
- [88:47]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The million dollar question.
- [88:48]
Lewis Howes
How many do you think?
- [88:49]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
This is my number. This is the Dr. Romany number. Okay, I'm going with 20 to 25%.
- [88:57]
Lewis Howes
Oh, of the world or of the world?
- [89:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The world. One in five to one in four.
- [89:02]
Lewis Howes
You think it's nuts?
- [89:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
One in five is probably, and I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids. Okay, so 18 and above, 20%, that would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25%. I think that just the pressures of New York, especially New York, la, la, being an entertainment city, the nature that sort of the. It's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25% here. So that's one in five. So buddy, if you know five people, one of them's narcissistic.
- [89:37]
Lewis Howes
When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the qualities that they possess? The real qualities?
- [89:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's empathy, empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people. Emotional regulation. Managing this is more of the emotional regulation like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, genuine curiosity about others. Setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. Having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are, having a solid sense of values, conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic.
- [90:33]
Lewis Howes
It's nice to be around those two people.
- [90:35]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life, but I'm very careful. Like I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like I don't. And I've made them. As recently as this year, I've let more than a few in. So it happens.
- [90:49]
Lewis Howes
You let narcissistic frenzy in.
- [90:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. I'm getting. You know. And I gotta tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like, it's unfortunately a one in five. What are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people, one of them, and depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three.
- [91:21]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. So many memories. Yeah. This is for a whole other conversation off camera, why I think I attracted some of these things. This is fascinating. So even you, you attracted people in your life?
- [91:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
100%. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm.
- [91:42]
Lewis Howes
Where's the one?
- [91:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
My personal vulnerabilities are things like a. I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough, really. I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say, maybe I should try. Try harder. So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. Like, I don't. I. I've been through too much too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boiled it down to one simple thing, is that I feel like I'm not good at enough. Because I feel like I'm not good enough. I let those kinds of people in. So what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates and not let anyone in. Unfortunately. Yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect.
- [92:40]
Lewis Howes
Or. I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself?
- [92:47]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic. Authentic. Ish. Authentic adjacent. But I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm. I'm not enough, kind of.
- [92:59]
Lewis Howes
Really?
- [92:59]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work on my. In my Own therapy on that consistently and. But it's a. I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's. It's great. It's interesting. I've got. My staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. So that's what's so remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs. That's great. They're like, we feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. Like, good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're. They're. I mean, they're. These two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women. Yeah.
- [93:35]
Lewis Howes
So what's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't. So that when we see someone coming in, we just say, nah, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life.
- [93:48]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, if we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy. Who judges energy? Right. Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life. You know, we're. And that makes. Makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's.
- [94:11]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Who said this?
- [94:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Ramany says, and many others, I do believe, say we're energy. Like, who judges energy? It's like judging the sun, I guess. We do like, we wear sunscreen.
- [94:23]
Lewis Howes
You're right, right, right.
- [94:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But you know what I mean, like, it's a. These conditions of worth. Like, whatever people say to themselves, I'm not attractive enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm rich enough. I'm not accomplished enough enough. I'm not this enough. I'm not that enough that those conditions of worth. If I'm. I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed.
- [94:46]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [94:47]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable. All of us. Not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive. It's not. Or. Or rich or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's a lot to break out of. And so I think that. And those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like, as a kid, many kids, they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of, well, I'm not. They're not paying attention because I'm not interesting. I'm not enough.
- [95:32]
Lewis Howes
And I get attention when I excel in something that they like. And so let me do more of that to get more attention.
- [95:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Exactly.
- [95:38]
Lewis Howes
And if I lose at that, then they're not gonna love me.
- [95:41]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's exactly right. So it all becomes like, people think, like, if I do these things, then I can be loved, rather than, you're just lovable. And so that's where most people lose the plot. And I think the other piece, those people don't understand. Don't. Narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change. Or some just, they, I, I just got to get to know them better. Or they don't really mean that. We enable it, we justify it. But if people really got to learn, like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw. Not okay. That, that, that entitled behavior. Not okay. I, and honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like, like this. They're behaving like this.
- [96:23]
Lewis Howes
So how do you create boundaries with the narcissist?
- [96:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people. The key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get interest disinterested, and they walk away. Right. You're not an easy mark anymore. Right. So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like, get away from, from them. This is dangerous.
- [96:48]
Lewis Howes
But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?
- [96:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, but I, I, I'm like, I'm, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the back all out. So it's a. Because charming, charismatic people, I would say then always make sure they have humility.
- [97:06]
Lewis Howes
There you go.
- [97:06]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
If they have the humility back, that's the unicorn.
- [97:09]
Lewis Howes
That, that's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're.
- [97:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And they're Humble. Humble. And, and they are all. They're all that. They're incredible. And they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit? Talk a little bit about you. There's a whole keeper in your life. Yeah. That's a keeper. Or they, you can see how they're talking to other people, their interest in other people. They're not talking down to people maybe because let's say they're in a service position. They care that evening. Right. That they're not. And not in a smarmy. Like the servers might. Best friend. But like they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. They're just really. They're present in a situation. They're not elitist, they're not status conscious. That kind of humility, you know that they don't brag, you know that they're all that. And they're not going on about how all that. That they are.
- [98:03]
Lewis Howes
That's cool.
- [98:04]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They're not talking about, oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my. No, they're just, they're actually able to be with you. Be present with you. It's rare because again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self actualized to not. To not drink the Kool Aid.
- [98:22]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us?
- [98:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I think that one in five of.
- [98:32]
Lewis Howes
Your friends is a narcissist.
- [98:33]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So I mean again, if we're using this number of 20%. Okay. Which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just inter. I mean it's, it's a spitball number and it's just sort of boiled. Boiled up in this world. And it may be a fervent myth. I don't know. It's hard to get good data on this. Right. You know, it's, it's. The assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology. Because who's going to be honest about it? Right. There's all these backdoors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things. Let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist.
- [99:10]
Lewis Howes
Tell me.
- [99:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Because I think that we've been talking, we've been so much focus on the narcissist. The question is, what if I've just been through this, Is there a sense.
- [99:18]
Lewis Howes
Of pts that you're going to face?
- [99:20]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
A lot of pts. You'll see it's a. There's confusion, self doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore. A sort of sense of like, I can't be bothered with life. Rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, well, no, because that part.
- [99:46]
Lewis Howes
Wasn'T really, it wasn't real. It was like this explosive.
- [99:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's when people have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They, they might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved. Like self care behaviors, we call them. Like things like working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships because.
- [100:18]
Lewis Howes
Then they'll start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this? What was I thinking?
- [100:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
An idiot. You know, worst part, it's the self blame and the self shame. Because the self blame is, this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known. And then I'm a fool. And then a lot of people go back, right? So here. Why? Because they think, let's talk a little bit. I want my whiteboard. Yes, I gotta use.
- [100:42]
Lewis Howes
We get to use the whiteboard.
- [100:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So here we go. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle. Okay, Step one is something called I'll write it down, I'll lift it up. Love bombing.
- [100:55]
Lewis Howes
Okay, okay.
- [100:56]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Saying, let's take a vacation. For our third date, I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month. My lease is up. Love bombing. It's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's seductive. And what it does, it's a narcissist ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flies. Cause you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep that you're not getting, or the unreal sex you're having. Or. Or these amazing, like, constantly being these text messages or going to San Francisco on your fourth date and you're thinking, like, okay, what red flags I'm having.
- [101:51]
Lewis Howes
This is incredible. Yeah.
- [101:53]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The minute the narcissist knows they've got you, when you kind of let down your guard. Cause some people are like, this seems too good to be true. And then they're like, okay, I love you too. Boom. That's the day. So pity call devaluing starts. Okay? Now, devaluing is characterized by invalidation. Little digs like, oh, gosh, you know, my ex girlfriend could cook. Or, you know, it's like, the digs. It's little. It's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like, where's this? Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here? Now they start blaming themselves because it was this. Now it's this. It must be me.
- [102:45]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh. Now then, I just feel like you're going through my life right now.
- [102:49]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay, we go to something called the discard. Now, the discard is not always a breakup.
- [102:59]
Lewis Howes
Is this where, like, they won't speak to you for two weeks?
- [103:01]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's the silent treatment. It's the. It's the deeper level. Manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be even. Sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point. Like, the not narcissistic person leaves. Like, I'm out. I'm out. I can't do this. And then comes a phase.
- [103:21]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh.
- [103:22]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Called I'm gonna write it and then unveil it to you.
- [103:27]
Lewis Howes
Yes, yes.
- [103:27]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Very love bombing of me Hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard try to woo you back. Love bombing part two. Now, love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, say that seductive.
- [103:52]
Lewis Howes
It's a baby.
- [103:53]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
What was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to you. And this could be because they cheated on you, right? And they say things like, you're so much better. And you know what? People Fall for that, because that's that triangulation dynamic. That idea very Oedipal, that you're the favored child, that you're the favored one and the hoovering is choosing you. Then in the part of the hoovering is a dynamic called. You're going to love this one, is my guess, after the way you've been putting future fish. Faking. Future faking is no. As soon as this deadline is done, we're going to. Or I'm going to get therapy. Or. I know. Let's just put it off for another six months. For sure. I'm going to do it. Then they keep moving the goalposts. And future faking is what keeps people in the game because they're like, they're promising, you want six months? We're going to have kids. We're going to have kids. Yeah, for sure. You know, like, I just need to get my career established. And now you're 50 and you don't have kids. Or we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there, and I know you said there's some better opportunities for you. You're waiting. Or I'm gonna get into therapy. I'm gonna work on these anger issues. And then if you push it. God, you know what? You're really impatient. You are not a nice person.
- [105:09]
Lewis Howes
And just see what I'm going through in my life, and I need time. Yeah.
- [105:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else, and then they're done. So people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen. And consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered. Because then it goes back to the cycle, goes again and again and again.
- [105:34]
Lewis Howes
So what is hoovering again?
- [105:35]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in.
- [105:36]
Lewis Howes
Suddenly they bring you back in.
- [105:39]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And they'll do that if, let's say, they're the one who left. Left you. Okay. And you finally start getting your life in order, and maybe you're dating someone else and they find that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up or you're in a good place, they don't want you happy. They don't like losing, and they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination.
- [106:00]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh.
- [106:04]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Okay.
- [106:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So I tell people, like, maybe you could get A good, A good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out.
- [106:12]
Lewis Howes
And then get out like before you.
- [106:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Get in too deep.
- [106:14]
Lewis Howes
But if that happens, where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you and then you're like, you know what?
- [106:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They get mad.
- [106:22]
Lewis Howes
I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me. Like, it's not you, it's me. I'm not ready. They're gonna get mad.
- [106:27]
Host - Promotional Announcer
They're gonna get mad.
- [106:27]
Lewis Howes
So either way, once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're.
- [106:32]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You're kind of sunk. Yeah. Cause and they actually, you need to get out then. Yeah, they wanna get out.
- [106:36]
Lewis Howes
You gotta get out the first weekend.
- [106:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You wanna get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people, and it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They drive really badly, they drive dangerously, they cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off on the freeway. And that's actually been documented in research.
- [106:56]
Lewis Howes
So a narcissist is a bad driver.
- [106:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Bad driver, dangerous driver. Not bad. Not like dumb driver. Fast cut people off. Hong Kong road gauge. You drive? Yeah.
- [107:05]
Lewis Howes
Oh my God.
- [107:06]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Got to use the whiteboard.
- [107:07]
Host - Promotional Announcer
I like it.
- [107:07]
Lewis Howes
Anything else we should use on there? You got another graph or a diagram?
- [107:11]
Host - Promotional Announcer
I love this stuff.
- [107:12]
Lewis Howes
I love this. This is fascinating. Anything else we should talk about?
- [107:19]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Last thing.
- [107:19]
Lewis Howes
Yes, give it to me.
- [107:20]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Gaslighting.
- [107:21]
Lewis Howes
Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a.
- [107:22]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay, so gaslighting's the word of our time. And if nothing else, I want. Your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people get things right here.
- [107:29]
Lewis Howes
So what is gaslighting?
- [107:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking apart of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process. It's not a one off. Right. So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything. And I would say, and we had our time, we were going to meet the date. And I said, you never said we're meeting on that day. And you'd be like, what? And then you go back to your email and say, no, it's right there. Right. But for a minute you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight. You. Because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute. Say, die. Did I not send that email Right? And you, you catch yourself. Okay. The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship. And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted? Initially, they defend themselves. No, no, no, you did. You really did. Like, you said that.
- [108:50]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Or.
- [108:50]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Or I'm not being too sensitive. Like, and now you're getting more and.
- [108:55]
Lewis Howes
More worked up, right? Yeah.
- [108:57]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And then, you know, they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes, somebody is a little bit crazy. Like, have you seen a therapist? So now what are they doing? Not only have they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then, boom. They close it by saying, there's something wrong with you.
- [109:12]
Lewis Howes
Oh, man.
- [109:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And you start believing it.
- [109:13]
Lewis Howes
Oh, wow.
- [109:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Many people are gaslighted will start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness. Maybe I need to get help. There's something wrong with me. And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person.
- [109:27]
Lewis Howes
Oh, my gosh.
- [109:28]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's the process. And so. But initially, the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together. Maybe this is a family member. Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You gotta have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said, we're meeting and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target.
- [109:59]
Lewis Howes
Oh, they'll stop with you.
- [110:01]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. Because. Yeah. So they'll say, like, this is not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one. Right. But so early on, when a person or a person says, you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm gonna stick with that.
- [110:18]
Lewis Howes
That's what I'm talking about. That's a good one.
- [110:20]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right? So. And then the gaslighter will probably lose interest, but they'll always get their last digging. They'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, all right, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But you. But just look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslighting. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday. Saturday, Literally three hours. All Gaslighting. Because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work. It happens in families. It happens in intimate relationships. It happens from the world at large. Like, no. Every. Everyone can. Every. The playing field's equal. And then the people are like, it can't be equal because I can't catch up.
- [111:01]
Lewis Howes
So the first. The first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say without them saying, Because I feel like this happened to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like, they bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, you. This, this, this, this. And I'll be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about. And so I have to go to, you know, go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about in the first place.
- [111:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's gaslighting. That. All that deflection. It's very exhausting.
- [111:29]
Lewis Howes
It's like, let's just focus on this thing.
- [111:31]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So a great example, a gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like, in a relationship. And, you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person. And there's been a lot of communication between the two of you. Like, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good to me. This feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like, this isn't. Okay. They'll hit back with. Let's go back to when you were in college, and you. And you're like, wait a minute. And then you know what I tell people? People have a whiteboard, say, okay, I'm going to table that. Let's. We'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it, but let's go back to the original issue.
- [112:13]
Lewis Howes
So keep going back to the original.
- [112:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Go back to the original issue until.
- [112:15]
Lewis Howes
They have a discussion. Resolve.
- [112:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They'll get Mad.
- [112:18]
Lewis Howes
And they won't discuss.
- [112:19]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They won't discuss.
- [112:20]
Lewis Howes
So how do you find resolve? You don't find result and use relationships.
- [112:24]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
There's no resolve, there is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance.
- [112:28]
Lewis Howes
Oh my gosh. So you just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's going to be their way or the highway and they won't be flexible. And you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time or you can choose to move on. But being in an argument is only going to make your life good.
- [112:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. And you might say, like, that seems lonely. Yeah. And so I have worked with people who have stayed in long term narcissistic relationships who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships.
- [113:10]
Lewis Howes
Unless the narcissist tries to control them, hanging out with their kids.
- [113:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissist, it won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working church community. Some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way, develop hobbies they care deeply about, a garden, building something, whatever their groove is, music, something like that. I've known people that have lovers, you know, to say like, I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years. And so they'll do that and they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people. I haven't been touched. And they're like, you know, I know I'm not. And they said, like, I know I'm not very attractive, but they found everyone's got someone. Everyone finds someone and they find there's someone. And so I've heard it all. I've heard people do all kinds of things, finding their way, finding their way to get that support on the. When they're not being. When, when they have to stay. Because that's where you get ungaslighted. Right? Person saying, oh, that's not, that's not okay. Or this person's conduct isn't okay. But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, I can fit fixism. And I'm telling you here you can't.
- [114:22]
Lewis Howes
Stop trying to fix it, Stop trying to fix it.
- [114:23]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's just not going to work.
- [114:25]
Lewis Howes
That was probably my challenge is I wanted to fix.
- [114:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Which again, your athletic background, it makes sense. I mean, the people who have had a track record of being able to get things done, they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long.
- [114:40]
Lewis Howes
I think I was. I think I was attracted to it and then wanted to stay in it. And then I was just like. It just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else, opposed to a combination of, let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life. Not all the energy in one place.
- [115:00]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct, correct. And it is very draining. And I think a lot of people do feel like a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No relationship. Yeah. Being unselfish, all. No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work? And you're like, of course I'll go to that dinner for work. Because you care about them. And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it, is that you understand that there's a give and take. And you give graciously and the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about, you know, grinding your teeth and, you know, being irritated. You have to go. But really that giving with grace. But I'll be frank with you, it really comes down, though, to finding somebody who has a good personality. That it's not, and I keep using this word, agreeableness. Right.
- [115:53]
Lewis Howes
Being agreeable.
- [115:54]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Being agreeable. And that's actually a personality style.
- [115:56]
Lewis Howes
How do you know when someone's agreeable?
- [115:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
All those things I talked about, flexibility and warmth and kindness.
- [116:01]
Host - Promotional Announcer
Just the time.
- [116:01]
Lewis Howes
It's just seeing it over time, seeing their words, interactions.
- [116:04]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Agreeable men make less money.
- [116:06]
Lewis Howes
Agreeable men make less money.
- [116:09]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
The research has shown that pretty clearly, bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's going to be agreeable is a lot lower.
- [116:19]
Lewis Howes
So you just need to find a unicorn, someone who's agreeable and who has money.
- [116:23]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I have not.
- [116:24]
Lewis Howes
You've never seen that.
- [116:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Very rare. I know. Yes, I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head, billionaire, most agreeable man in the World sweet sweetie and hungry narcissist. He's a darling.
- [116:43]
Lewis Howes
Oh, man. But just gets walked all over in his relationship.
- [116:45]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, my God. Beyond walked all over.
- [116:47]
Lewis Howes
But in his business, he can go and have killed it. He can be assertive and. Yeah, I've met.
- [116:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I've met a few agreeable rich folks. I. I mean, really. Not just rich, like, really good at what they do. They. Unicorns. Like, they. They definitely. But what was interesting, you know, with some of the. A couple of these folks, the agreeable, very wealthy, at the end of their career, they got taken down. They got, like, people in the company. They. They were a soft target.
- [117:15]
Lewis Howes
They were the vulnerable targets. They built the company, and they're gonna. We're gonna take the equity from them or they're gonna be the one to blame.
- [117:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Or they got a group of people.
- [117:23]
Lewis Howes
Because they weren't willing to fight for what they.
- [117:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, they. No, they weren't willing to be disagreeable.
- [117:28]
Lewis Howes
They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs.
- [117:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation.
- [117:35]
Lewis Howes
It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I've talked about this many times on my show that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that process and really go through a healing journey of the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough or not feeling lovable, all these different things. And to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative, and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in and it's channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book the Masculine. Masculine. Yeah. One in six men have been sexually abused. One in four women, obviously. And what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in, and then they be. Become angry or reactive or rageful or, you know, dismissive or whatever it is. They have put a mask on. And, you know, that shame causes that mask. At least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So I can't remember where I was going with this. But for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind and heal that process. And it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can. Because I used to be very competitive. It was like I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. You know, it got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled. And I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. Then I started transitioning, and when I hit 30, to, I just want to collaborate and I just want to support others and work together, and it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling.
- [119:36]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
What do you think the function was of trying to win?
- [119:38]
Lewis Howes
Oh, to get love. Be accepted. To get love and be accepted.
- [119:42]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I was going to say maybe to be safe, too. Yeah.
- [119:43]
Lewis Howes
To get love to be accepted. To feel like. Like I was. Yeah. To fit in, you know, Because I didn't feel I had any friends growing up. So it was like, well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me.
- [119:54]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right, Right.
- [119:54]
Lewis Howes
And I'm desirable.
- [119:56]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right.
- [119:56]
Lewis Howes
If I lose and who wants to be, you know, around me?
- [119:59]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. And then the shame gets activated. But it's also safety. I mean, that's why that idea. If I win, I'm safe.
- [120:04]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [120:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's the ultimate get for any human. I'm not alone to be safe. I'm not alone. If I. If I'm accepted, I'm safe. If I'm love, loved, I'm safe.
- [120:12]
Lewis Howes
And it's funny, when I moved into. And Jay Shetty talks about this a lot. When I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know. That's what I feel like for the last eight years. Because you're safe when you're still collaborating. You're still with people. You're helping each other accelerate together.
- [120:28]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right. But there's a fear. And I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer. Right. So I think that's often a blockade. And then I'm at the top of.
- [120:42]
Lewis Howes
The mountain, everyone else is down.
- [120:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes. If they leave you, it's not even the. It's not the collaboration that's the issue. It's the potential for abandonment.
- [120:49]
Lewis Howes
Interesting. Like, if I'm. If I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top, but then I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind.
- [120:58]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, they took it all away. I mean, this was somebody. And that man, the agreeable billionaire there was collaborative from the day one of his career.
- [121:06]
Lewis Howes
So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not get taken advantage of?
- [121:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's not easy. With the 1 in 5 number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is. You know what is the best offense is a good defense. You better have a good defense.
- [121:24]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. Get your contracts in order. Get everything.
- [121:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Get your contracts in order. Document. Don't put your head in the sand. I mean, the reason narcissism has proliferated the way it has is. Is enabling people. Keep giving it a free pass. Oh, come on now. You know, don't. What is it? Don't. Don't hate the. Don't hate the player. Hate the game. Isn't that how that works? Right? It's a player, and. Yeah, so it's. It's a player. Yeah. Yeah. No, so, like, it's. It's a. We have all this kind of culture around, and in some ways, people, like, want to see. They. They. The. The best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic.
- [122:11]
Lewis Howes
Want to believe they're.
- [122:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We want to believe that they're going to be. We want to believe that this charismatic person doesn't really. Is real, that they're. That someone this larger than life is larger than life, rather than an ordinary person who just has ordinary things and could fall and, you know, and we want superheroes. We want. That's why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle.
- [122:39]
Lewis Howes
I'm reading that you've got some great books.
- [122:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Thank you.
- [122:44]
Lewis Howes
Don't you know who I am? How to stay sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and incivility. And you've also got another book called should I stay or should I go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I stay or should I go? Surviving a relationship with a narcissist. Narcissist. It just feels like the best way to, you know, set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a Relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow. Learn the person. Learn. As long as you can spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing. I was watching some of the videos. Very inspiring. So if you want to make sure you. You learn this, I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with.
- [123:33]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Learn the person. Take it slow. And don't justify bad behavior. When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. You know, scorpions sting. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got. It's going to sting you. So walk the other way. And once it stings you once, don't pick it up again.
- [123:57]
Lewis Howes
I even dated a couple Scorpios. Yeah. Not that all scorpios are d this, but yes. It's funny. How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books. You do workshops now?
- [124:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram. We often put, you know, we put the. Let people know what's coming up. Then we're going to have a healing program and recovery program for people who have been through narcissistic relationships. That's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements there. Every day we have a new video coming out. So you will be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching.
- [124:36]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere, right?
- [124:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere. Everywhere.
- [124:40]
Lewis Howes
There we go. Okay, cool. Couple final questions. This one is called the Three Truths. That's what I ask everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth. Many years of away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else. But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. Books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths?
- [125:16]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault, okay? You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable. And Trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you.
- [125:38]
Lewis Howes
Those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Ramany, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, have gone through a lot of this who've always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships. And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in the university in an academic level, and now you know to the masses with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you went through and your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life.
- [126:36]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, I appreciate that Pain is a hell of a mental mentor.
- [126:39]
Lewis Howes
Absolutely it is. And it's going to keep coming until we learn the lesson, it's going to keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?
- [126:55]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
My definition of greatness is humility, self awareness, compassion and empathy.
- [127:09]
Lewis Howes
There you go. Dr. Ramani, thank you. Appreciate it.
- [127:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Thank you.
- [127:13]
Lewis Howes
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Host - Promotional Announcer
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Lewis Howes
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- [127:45]
Host - Promotional Announcer
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if want you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved. You are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
- [128:41]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
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Lewis Howes
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Host - Promotional Announcer
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