B (5:20)

Yeah, it was exactly. I finished radiation last February.

A (5:25)

What was that like for you?

B (5:26)

The whole experience, it was like one nightmare after another. Oh, it's so hard. I was also. I continued to see. So here's the thing is that I figured out, you know, even though I kind of went into this field to like figure out how to treat myself, it very much became a survival mechanism for me, like relieving suffering in others. It's just my. That just sings to me. That felt like purpose. It is my purpose. And so I remember being with the. In the doctor's office and she says, like, well, you won't be able. You need to take off at least four months for chemo. And the thought that I had was like, I think that I'm afraid that will kill me. Like, really? Yeah. I was afraid I would get depressed again.

A (6:12)

You mean not you not being in service at that time, Just being in chemo and just sitting in my bed, like, waiting for this to be over was not going to bring you enough joy or purpose.

B (6:22)

Meaning? Yeah, meaning this is the only way I know how to deal with suffering is to use it.

A (6:28)

Yes.

B (6:29)

And I really, you know, I believe, and most people do, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. And that energy that comes from suffering, it will either eat you up or you use it as fuel to move you towards your values or improve the world in some way.

A (6:50)

And if we are living in suffering, sadness or depression and we do not move into action and use it, what will happen to us?

B (7:00)

You will just suffer exponentially more. It's such a clear one to one in my head and not just through my personal experience, but with folks I've worked with. Like, as soon as you start finding a way to pay that forward, it just transforms the experience. I mean, what I went through was dark. And I can sit here today and say that I am glad I went through it. And I knew.

A (7:28)

Really?

B (7:28)

Oh, yeah. Oh my God.

A (7:30)

Why you glad you went through breast cancer?

B (7:34)

I'm close. I'm not there yet with the breast.

A (7:36)

Cancer, the depression for sure, the 10 years of depression.

B (7:38)

Yeah.

A (7:39)

Why are you glad you went through it?

B (7:40)

I genuinely believed it saved at least one life. That those moments when I do share with folks, and I do because I work with folks who are often very suicidal, it is often the turning point in therapy And I don't open with that. I mean, to be fair, like, it's something I keep kind of close to the chest. But if and when it's called for and I go there, it tends to be the turning point. And I can, like in the Rolodex of my mind, I can see, like, people, their faces, who. I really wonder what would have happened if I hadn't taken that leap and.

A (8:18)

Shared it with them.

B (8:19)

And shared it with them and then. And pulled on it again and again.

A (8:23)

You know, because you, I'm assuming you have a. A patient coming to your office who is intense depression, suicidal thoughts, and that's why they're in your office.

B (8:34)

Right.

A (8:35)

And they feel like no one understands them.

B (8:38)

That's right.

A (8:38)

No one can understand the pain and sadness that they're feeling, that their mind is racing constantly, that they're unlovable, that everything is against them. They have the worst luck every day. Everyone's out to get them. No one believes in them. And they feel like, what's the point of my life? Why should I even be here? And I want to hurt myself. And I feel like that's the only way to create relief. It's either numbing alcohol addiction, that's the only way to manage the pain and the sadness.

B (9:07)

That's right.

A (9:07)

Or that's not even doing it. So I might as well. Why am I even here?

B (9:12)

Yeah. And that is the point when a lot of people come to me and I have to become. We need to have a strong enough alliance that at least for a little bit, I'm a reason not to. Okay. And so that needs to be a very real connection between equals. And I'm not making a codependent or a dependent relationship here. That is a short lived thing. But I need to keep them alive so that we can do the skills training and, you know, help them build a life worth living. All right.

A (9:40)

And if they don't feel validated by you, you might be able to try to validate them in every other way, but it might be that your life experience of 10 years of feeling something similar.

B (9:52)

Yeah.

A (9:52)

Is the only thing that could validate them.

B (9:55)

Yeah. And. And I don't want this to sound like, I don't know, not egotistical, but like, look at me. But there's something to be said for the fact that, like, I am, you know, sitting in the chair that I'm in and I've written a book and I've had success. There's something really quite powerful to that to be like, no, I was in this situation. And I know there's. I believe there's another way and you're.

A (10:18)

Living a better life than then.

B (10:19)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, this is all on the table for you.

A (10:23)

Yeah. And 10 years. I didn't think it was a better way for me.

B (10:25)

Exactly, exactly. There. There's something true. There's just something there that I would be, you know, beyond the validation, I.

A (10:33)

Think there's that you mentioned that if someone is suffering, the best way to get out of it is to be in service of someone else. Right. And if we are in suffering, I mean, when you. When you were going through chemotherapy with breast cancer, you said you couldn't just sit around for four months during chemo. You had to somehow use some energy to be active and serve others. So how did you apply that strategy during one of the scariest moments of your life?

B (11:06)

Fortunately, I had trained a lot of my clients and I refer to my patients as clients just because, you know, equality. Like, I'm not up here, they're down here, just invalidation. And I have never experienced, honestly, such profound validation as I did from my clients who are not supposed to take care of me. There's no expectation there. But there was this, like, I got you and, man, you're showing up for me in all this.

A (11:37)

Wow.

B (11:38)

Like hell. Yeah.

A (11:40)

And you, like, lost your hair. Everything.

B (11:41)

Lost everything. I remember I was in the hospital. I was at. Towards the end of the chemotherapy. I'd had this really bad infection from a bad needle and it had gone. It was going towards these expanders that I had after the mastectomy. And the doctor says, this infection is not clearing up. They've got me on 24 hour antibiotics. And he says, if this goes to the expanders, it'll kill you.

A (12:10)

Oh, my gosh.

B (12:11)

If I do surgery with your white blood cell count this low, it could kill you. But I can't go. We can only give this a couple more days and then I've got to go in because it's going to get to the in. It'll reach the expanders. I remember I made some joke, like, wow, break it to me easy or something. And he was, this is not a laughing matter. I'm like, hey. But that same day. So the first thing was, like, I was supposed to see clients on Monday.

A (12:42)

Oh, my God.

B (12:42)

Right? So this is. This was a Tuesday. And I have CL clients scheduled.

A (12:45)

You gotta relax a little bit.

B (12:46)

I know, right? Right. And so I reach out to my assistant. I said, we gotta cancel everything. And one of the clients that Was canceled. Reached out and said, hey, it's not like you to cancel appointments. I just wanna make sure you're okay. I have a weird. Are you in the hospital? Like, I just have a weird feeling. And I was like, yeah, you know, actually it's interesting that you mentioned that. Yeah, some things have come up. I'll be in touch. And they said, you know, I'm real close by, if you want to just go for a walk at all, you know, you can wheel your sad little IV bag behind you, but just let me know, we don't have to talk about anything. And it was just like such this human moment, you know, And I felt like, I felt so seen. And I don't mean to suggest that like patients should be taking care of their doctor, anything like that. It was just that cancer brought down so many of the walls that I'd been keeping up about, like, I'm here, you're there. And just. I really did feel carried in some ways by the people I had served. And I don't think that only benefited me. I think that was a powerful experience in both directions.

A (14:03)

Wow.

B (14:03)

And that's what this does, right? That's what that is. How you make meaning out of suffering, I think is if, if you use it to connect with other people.

A (14:13)

If someone watching or listening right now has someone in their life that is truly suffering, like they just seem to be in a mental health funk or they just are showing behaviors that are just not. Well, yeah, sure, you know, I don't know how you want to diagnose it, but they're just experiencing sadness, depressive thoughts. They're just down on themselves, self sabotage, all these feelings. If someone watching or listening right now knows someone in their life going through that, how can they be a support for them without trying to rescue and save?

B (14:42)

That's such a good question. Because often what I see in that situation, unfortunately is people doing more harm than good, right? They end up reinforcing self harming behavior or substance abusing behavior, you know, providing resources that actually prevent the person from getting up off their. On their feet.

A (15:03)

Really?

B (15:03)

Oh, yeah, yeah. What I mean, in the case of like drug abuse, right? It can be money, resources, homes, even situations. If I've had clients with extreme OCD who can't leave the house, well, guess what? If you don't leave the house, OCD is going to get a lot worse. Okay? That thing's just going to kind of fester and you're spending 12 hours a day, you know, just cleaning the bathtub and your parents should probably stop supporting that. You need. We need to get you out. Okay? So if. If that's your experience, you've got someone that's suffering. It is critical to be validating, to be kind. This sucks. You're trying so hard. This hurts so much. And I need. I. What can we do to get you help? That is what I can help you do.

A (15:51)

What if someone doesn't want the help? You know that they need help. You know that they're doing things, thinking things, behaving in ways that are harming them. They're staying up all night, they're doing whatever it is, they're eating excessively and they're just not taking care of themselves. And it's been a pattern for months or years. And they don't want help from you or they don't want help from anyone. How do you support them? And like, snapping out of it, jumping back, starting to transform or heal, and just doing something better for themselves.

B (16:22)

One, you're not God. So unfortunately, you cannot take on that like it's on me.

A (16:28)

Right?

B (16:29)

Okay. That's one of the most liberating things I learned as a therapist who treats suicidality is that you're not God.

A (16:35)

What someone you truly care about, A family member, a friend that is in your life. And what if they do harm themselves? What if they can't come back from the harm they create? And you could have done something maybe.

B (16:48)

Ah, coulda, shoulda, woulda. Who knows if what you were gonna do would have helped. Like I just said, a lot of people think they're helping and they're actually feeding the problem. Okay. Someone who doesn't want to get help often doesn't want to get help because they don't think it will work. They don't think they're capable of change or they don't trust that anybody could understand. So those are the three things that I often need to troubleshoot or problem solve around. I need to address. I need to figure out which of those is at play, and then I need to figure out how I'm going to help kind of disprove their hypothesis. So you don't think anyone could understand? Okay, great. Let's look though. Let's see if there's support groups and we can even say it's for me. Can you just come with me and I'll go? But you've got to be careful with the pushing. Again, it's a lot of validation up front.

A (17:38)

They might resist even more. The more you try to push to try to support, they might just say I just want to be alone in my room.

B (17:44)

Yeah. So again, I'm heavy, heavy on the validation up front. But then I'm also crystal clear on the limits. Like, I can't take calls after 11. Dude, I'm sorry. Like, and. And something might happen to you. You might do something. I. I can't function as a therapist. And I'm not doing you any favors by pretending I can.

A (18:06)

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B (22:05)

I don't think so.

A (22:06)

I mean it's just a matter of time. Like you just have to go through your journey and just suffer until you decide and get self motivated or self, I mean empowered that I don't want to live this way anymore.

B (22:18)

Like for me though, you know, it was. I had tried all the things and what worked actually, and I hate to say this as a therapist, it wasn't therapy. It wasn't meds. It was electric shock therapy. It was ect. Okay, that is some wild stuff. It's like they hook you up and like your brain like crazy.

A (22:37)

What is it like in your brain? Like.

B (22:38)

Oh yeah, it's like. It's like One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. Yeah. Literally.

A (22:41)

They hook up your.

B (22:42)

Yeah, they.

A (22:44)

What do they do? They like this.

B (22:45)

It's wild. You go in, they put you under anesthesia and then they really. Yeah, they put stuff into your brain and then it creates a seizure.

A (22:53)

What, in your brain, induced seizure?

B (22:55)

Yeah. Holy cow.

A (22:56)

How long. How many times did you do this?

B (22:58)

I had bilateral. The main side effect is memory loss. So, like, I can't remember. It's like, to complete blank. Gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have some really funny stories. One more time.

A (23:09)

Did it, like, reset your brain?

B (23:11)

Yeah. Did it help? It did. I had tried everything.

A (23:17)

And that helped you. You tried medication, you tried therapy, you tried working out, you tried eating. Perfect.

B (23:24)

I mean, I was literally teaching yoga classes while I was going through ect, which was hilarious, because I would, like, forget what the flow was and just kind of. It was a disaster. Yeah.

A (23:37)

And that helped you. Wow.

B (23:40)

And so for me, it really was like a switch. Now ECT does. It's.

A (23:45)

Do you think there was any placebo to that?

B (23:47)

I don't. Because if there would have been, I would have felt it so much earlier with all the other things I had tried. And I did not think this was gonna work. This was like. I mean, ECT is highly effective. It's been really portrayed horribly in the movies and stuff. So it's not. But for treatment resistant depression, I think it works something like 80% of the time.

A (24:10)

Wow.

B (24:11)

It is an incredibly effective treatment for depression. There's something we don't talk about here. I am talking about.

A (24:18)

That is interesting.

B (24:19)

Yeah. So for me, it was that, but that does not prevent you from relapse. Okay. And so I was very susceptible. I could see my mind starting to go in that direction.

A (24:31)

So it wasn't like the fix automatically. You still had to.

B (24:34)

It was a fix, but then it was really easy to get pulled.

A (24:37)

So you needed protocols, you needed habits.

B (24:39)

I needed meditation. I needed. I mean, meditation was. It was that combination. For me, it was the ect, and then. And then getting into meditation.

A (24:48)

How much of suffering stems or depression stems from the way we think and how our mind works?

B (24:58)

Folks would argue most of it. Right. It's a. It's a. It's a loop of. Kind of stemming from these core beliefs of just like, I'm worthless, I'm unlovable.

A (25:07)

So is it a belief or an identity that we've shaped around our beliefs?

B (25:12)

That's a good question. I think it's really. I mean, in my experience, it was like a tape playing in my head. But also it was very physiological, of course. Like, it would feel just like there's somebody lying on top of me. And that's what shifted after that treatment was Just like, that's off my way. I still have the thoughts some, but they were quieter. But, like, when stress would occur or something would happen, they would come on like a storm.

A (25:40)

So how do we rewire our brain to create a loop of thinking that is empowering versus disempowering?

B (25:47)

So the first thing you need is. Is self awareness. And for me, that was facilitated through meditation. So when I was deeply depressed, it was really painful to meditate. That was very hard.

A (25:59)

Almost impossible.

B (26:00)

Yeah, yeah, it's almost. It can be contraindicated because you're like.

A (26:03)

This is not working out, like.

B (26:05)

And, like, what's in your head is not stuff you should be, like, spending quiet time with, you know? But afterwards, there was a separation between me and my thoughts. It wasn't like this glue. I could challenge them a little bit. I could get distance. And so it was.

A (26:21)

That's the key, right? That was the key is seeing your thoughts at the side of you versus being you.

B (26:27)

That's right. And that's kind of that identity thing you mentioned. Right. And I think there's this, like, fusion with these thoughts that are, you know, biologically, you know, genetically, whatever. You have a predisposition for it, but it's being able to decouple. And for me, like, when that gap would start to kind of, like, close in like this because of stress, that's where I would, like, I can meditate and start to widen it back out.

A (26:52)

Yes.

B (26:52)

And that's been the case since then.

A (26:54)

And the more we can create that separation through self awareness and meditation.

B (26:59)

Yeah.

A (27:00)

Or other techniques.

B (27:01)

Or other techniques. Yeah, sure.

A (27:04)

And we can not disassociate, but disconnect from the thought being us and more saying, this is something I'm thinking, but it's not something I am or something I'm experiencing rather than this makes me. This is me. The more we can do that on a daily basis, then we don't have to believe those thoughts.

B (27:25)

That's right. And especially when you couple it with care for others, with.

A (27:30)

What do you mean?

B (27:31)

Paying that suffering forward, using it as fuel to help other people in some way. Like when I was first. My poor husband, when we didn't think I was going to need chemotherapy. Then they do the mastectomy and stuff, and they're like, oh, actually, it's in the lymph nodes. We got to do chemo.

A (27:44)

Oh, man.

B (27:45)

And, like, my reaction was, we gotta go find some kittens to foster.

A (27:49)

Really?

B (27:50)

Literally. This was like, what we had to do. Matt's like, again. And so we Went to a kill shelter. We got two kittens. One of them died very sadly from just being kind of too sick and really poorly cared for at the shelter. My daughter's like, you're not allowed to touch or do anything. You are just like bad mojo. The other one lived. We then fostered another and then of course we adopted them. But like those cats would not be alive today had I not been diagnosed with cancer.

A (28:25)

Interesting.

B (28:25)

It's just a fact, right? And I see them every day and.

A (28:28)

They bring you joy and love and play and energy around the house or whatever.

B (28:32)

Yeah, that's right.

A (28:33)

And it's, it's you being in service even to a small creature, anything.

B (28:39)

Yes.

A (28:40)

It could be a plant, it could be like how can I, you know, take care of something other than me?

B (28:45)

That's it. That's it.

A (28:46)

Even when I'm suffering, even when I'm feel depressed, even when I feel like.

B (28:49)

I have no energy because I'm suffering because I have no energy. You have to like. And this like you can tell I feel it almost viscerally like it's like, no, you have to. Okay? Because otherwise that energy is not created or destroyed. If you don't funnel it, channel it, it's gonna take you down. It will, it will take more of you down. And so like you, you have to, you have to. Especially with mental illness. I hate to admit it, but it's very self focused.

A (29:20)

Do you think there's any link between mental illness and mental dis ease with single people over people with kids?

B (29:31)

Oh wow, that's fascinating.

A (29:32)

Because the single life and because the self focused life, at least in America, in our society these days, with independence and social media and getting married later and having kids later is more self focused and therefore more suffering focused.

B (29:48)

It's a really great question. Gosh dang it. Now I need to do a meta analysis and see what the data says.

A (29:52)

Now I'm not saying that parents don't also have a lot on their plates, right? A lot of like joy. But also some of them are facing a lot of emotional stress because they're not sleeping, because they don't have extra support, because they're trying to self regulate and work a full time job to provide and have kids around and just be like no time for themselves. I'm not saying that also doesn't cause, yeah for sure, mental challenges and stress and overwhelm for sure. But is there more depression and suffering with single people with no kids versus people with kids?

B (30:23)

Here's what I know worked with a lot of folks, once you have kids, that becomes a huge. I guess I can't kill myself for a lot of people. Right. Like there is a less likely and more of. Like there is more of. I think there can be more of a seriousness around being able to take care of this kid and I've got to be. I've got to take care of myself to do that. Right.

A (30:49)

Or some people say I'm going to give all myself to the kid and put myself last.

B (30:54)

And then, yeah, things get worse and.

A (30:56)

They, they suffer, but at least they're not killing themselves, I guess. But maybe slowly.

B (31:00)

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (31:02)

I don't know. Okay. Just curious. Yeah. I don't know if you had an answer there for. Because it does seem like a lot of people without kids tend to go down the rabbit hole of depression and self sabotage and like suffering, you know, cycles.

B (31:17)

Well, I mean, yeah, even just that case I was talking about with like the ocd, like if you've got a kid that you have to pick up at 3 o' clock and drive to whatever, like you can't be cleaning your bathtub.

A (31:25)

You don't have the time all day.

B (31:26)

Right.

A (31:26)

You're like, you have to put your energy and put the energy into something else.

B (31:29)

Right. And again, it is that like caring for someone thing. And that can be very helpful. As you've described.

A (31:39)

Yeah. What would you say then is the biggest universal pain in the world?

B (31:45)

What do you mean?

A (31:45)

Like, what is the, what is the thing that causes the most pain for most human beings?

B (31:52)

I'm going to come back to validate. I think it's invalidation.

A (31:55)

Invalidation. Is it more them invalidating themselves or others invalidating them, Others invalidating them? Really?

B (32:02)

I think being made to feel like you are crazy, like you are alone. Nobody else feels this, Nobody else has gone through this. What's wrong with you? I think that is the genesis of so much suffering, of anger, of war, of. I mean, just on a large scale, I think we react violently, be it to ourselves or others, when we don't feel accepted. I do, I do believe that in part because I've seen how transformative validation can be for someone who was raised or is coming out of an environment that was defined by the absence of it.

A (32:50)

Yeah. From a narcissistic relationship or abusive parents or bipolar parents or whatever it might be.

B (32:57)

Right, right. Whatever the situation was. Like if you were or even, you know, I see a lot of folks on the LGBTQ/ spectrum there and just these, good God. If you look at the suicide rates and the self harm rates in, in that population, significantly higher. Right. Anytime a group is. Is marginalized and made to feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with them, they're not accepted. It just does not play out well for the individual or for society.

A (33:27)

Yeah. What about someone that you don't agree with?

B (33:30)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (33:31)

But you can still. How do you validate someone even if you don't agree with their behaviors or the relationship they're in or the, the life path or the career path, whatever it is?

B (33:41)

Yeah.

A (33:42)

How can we do that even if we're like, oh, I just don't like that what you're doing? Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me. That's not my value system. That's not the career choice I would make. That partner is kind of weird. You sure you want to do that? Like, how do we disagree but also validate?

B (33:56)

Yeah. So again, you don't. Such an important point. You do not have to agree with someone to see the validity in their perspective, in their reaction. And if you don't see it, then it's on you to figure it out. Because every single effect has a cause. Okay. And so just to sit here and say, I don't like reality.

A (34:17)

Right.

B (34:21)

It's what we're doing in those moments. I don't like reality.

A (34:23)

Yeah.

B (34:25)

And you got to differentiate the person from their behavior as well. I think that's where things get really messy. You had a guest on recently that was talking about this as well. I can't. I told you, I'm horrible with names. I can't remember who it was. But you know, I don't have to agree with what someone does or even their thought process. But that doesn't mean that I think they are a fundamentally bad person. Like, don't confine people to the crappy things they've said or done.

A (34:51)

Right, Right. See it as part of them, but not all of them.

B (34:55)

Right, Right.

A (34:55)

Okay. You just, you don't have to agree with that thing. But you don't mean, mean to make their. They are horrible.

B (35:02)

Yeah. And you know, I think I'm able to say this from like, I have a little bit of a different perspective, which is again, that I've worked with folks with some pretty egregious kind of obnoxious behavioral and cognitive problems and I've seen them change.

A (35:17)

Wow.

B (35:18)

And so I think from that vantage point, a lot of these quirks and other people, they feel a lot less threatening to me. I guess I see them, I can see them as more transient and less. Like, this is their character, you know, like, it's like, oh, they're experimenting with that. Even if it's been 20 years, I still have a perspective that they can. That they can change.

A (35:39)

Yeah.

B (35:40)

Which helps.

A (35:41)

So during, you know, how long was this process for you going through cancer and chemotherapy? How long was the whole journey from getting the news to being on the other side of it?

B (35:53)

Well, I just. Honestly, I just had a hysterectomy in December.

A (35:57)

Wow.

B (35:58)

So almost two years. Yeah, well, about a year and a half. It's a long run.

A (36:05)

Have you been able to find kind of peace or, like, calm through the two plus years of.

B (36:12)

Well, as if that wasn't bad enough, I also already had multiple sclerosis.

A (36:16)

Oh, my gosh.

B (36:17)

So the combo and then the chemo did quite a number on my system, so I. I ended up with, like, a bit of arthritis afterwards and just pain, just more pain. And I've had a lot of, you know, to the contrary, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've had a lot of, like, these why me? Type of moments.

A (36:39)

Right, You've had that?

B (36:40)

I have. Oh, yeah, of course, Ms. Depression, cancer, like, give me a break.

A (36:49)

How do you find meaning through the suffering or the pain or the sad things that are happening?

B (36:55)

Yeah. It's back to one. I can't hate myself for thinking, why me? All right? There's validity to feeling exhausted and destroyed by so much of this. There are so many things in my life that I have missed out on that I cannot do, that I probably will never be able to do.

A (37:15)

Oh, man.

B (37:16)

That's just reality, and that sucks. Okay? And I'm not living in Gaza, okay? There's. Both of. These things can be true. It can be true that I'm suffering and my life has been compromised in some ways. It's also true that it's not the greatest hardship ever experienced. More importantly, I am in a position or it's on me to find a way to use this suffering, whatever it is, as a gift. And that is my responsibility. Nobody else can do that for me.

A (37:49)

Because if you don't see the suffering as a gift, then what happens?

B (37:53)

Then it's an. Then it's just an anchor. It's just a. It's a dead weight. Like, you know, I picture, like, the old prisons, right? These people carrying around this ball like that is. That is what it. That's what it is.

A (38:07)

At 42 years old, I'm pursuing my dream of returning to the USA National Handball Team to compete in the 2028 Olympics. I'm putting in hours of practice every week, so I've been extra intentional about how I'm taking care of my body on and off the court to support my energy and my recovery levels. And one thing I've been adding into my routine lately and loving is iM8's daily ultimate essentials. IM8 is a daily, all in one wellness drink that gives your body the support it needs without juggling a bunch of different supplements. They use effective ingredients backed by real research. And it's not just hype. Clinical trials showed 95% of participants felt more energetic and 85% said their digestion improved with less bloating. Feel your best self every day with im8. Go to im8health.com greatness and use code greatness for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. That's I am number 8 h e a l t h.com greatness code greatness for a free welcome kit Five free travel sachets plus ten percent off your order. Im8health.com greatness code greatness these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent disease.

B (39:27)

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A (39:56)

So what I'm hearing you say not only as a clinical psychologist but also as a human being that the only way to get out of suffering is. Is to find a way to serve something else greater than you and find meaning in the gift of your suffering.

B (40:17)

Yes. Yes. Use it to validate others. It is gold in that sense. Like that experience that you described of being able to just be like, come here. I get it. Hugging somebody who has just barely found the strength to kind of whisper, hint at this thing. Like, there's only one reason why you can provide that.

A (40:43)

Yeah.

B (40:44)

All right.

A (40:44)

Because I've been through an experience. Yeah. Because I can validate it in a.

B (40:48)

Way that nobody else can.

A (40:50)

Yeah.

B (40:51)

And that is an extreme superpower. So it's not. It's not your shame. It's not, you know, dark place. It is your superpower.

A (41:00)

Gosh, that's so interesting that I never really thought about it that way. That you can really turn your shame and your biggest insecurity into your greatest superpower. I never really thought about it that way. I mean, I've been using it in service, but it's not. I didn't think of it as, like, it could be one day. Maybe not in the middle of the suffering right now, but one day. And it's so hard to think that way when you're going through it.

B (41:24)

I know. So the thing you have to think about is, like, it's not going to remove yourself, give up on the idea that this is going to make you feel better. Put that aside.

A (41:32)

Yeah.

B (41:33)

You have to do it with the sole intent of helping somebody remove, reducing stuff. These cats have no idea that I have cancer. They have no idea. They don't. Right. But. And maybe I'll feel better, maybe I won't. I don't know what chemo's going to do to me. It could be horrible, but this will have done some good in the world. That's why you have to do it just for the sake of improving something, removing something, suffering. And if you have suffered yourself, you are in a unique position to do that because again, I said, I think validation invalidation is at the core of so much of our pain and struggling. And so if you've got insight and you can communicate that in a way that speaks to another person, that helps them feel seen when they have felt lost for so long, that is your superpower. Right. Like, I don't know. Yeah, cheesy. And I'm not saying suffer is great.

A (42:29)

But, yeah, it's not great.

B (42:32)

No, it's not.

A (42:33)

But you say on page 65 of your book, your suffering is a gift. Don't squander it. But I think it's really hard when we're in the middle of it. That's what, you know, what I'm. What I've experienced. I mean, for most of my life, I suffered internally. Externally, I looked like things were fine, but internally I suffered. Right. And it was a number of different instances. Sexual trauma and abuse when I was five by a man that I didn't know, that I've talked about openly often on the show, but just a lot of different scenarios in childhood that caused me to feel like, what's the point? You know? But in the outside, I was a good athlete and this and that. It was like, okay, it didn't look like that, but Inside, I was suffering.

B (43:12)

Oh, yeah.

A (43:13)

And, you know, without those experiences, I would not care about. I would not be doing what I'm doing, trying to serve people. I would not be creating the show. I would not be curious about understanding people. I would not be trying to make a difference or an impact in the way that I'm doing it. And looking back, I can appreciate those moments. Even though it felt like there's no way out, it feels like, when is this gonna leave, this pain?

B (43:41)

It can't. And you just, like, it goes on for so long, you don't think it can.

A (43:45)

And it's. Yeah, it feels like I'll never. You can't think in a day that'll ever leave you.

B (43:49)

Right, right.

A (43:51)

You're like, it's. I felt this my whole life. How am I going to start to feel some type of relief? It seems, like, daunting.

B (43:57)

Yeah. And incomprehensible and all of it unattainable. Like, all of it. All of it.

A (44:03)

And, you know, I don't remember no one. No one opened up. I never saw anyone that opened up about sexual abuse.

B (44:11)

Oh, yeah.

A (44:12)

As a boy.

B (44:12)

Yes.

A (44:13)

I never saw another, like, athlete open up on tv. Like, oh, this happened to me.

B (44:17)

Right.

A (44:17)

So I felt I was the only one.

B (44:19)

Yeah.

A (44:19)

And I never. I never saw Validation.

B (44:22)

No, you didn't. In fact, sexual trauma is the epitome of invalidation.

A (44:27)

Oh, yeah, you're worthless.

B (44:28)

You're worthless. I don't care what you feel. No, you deserve this. You want this. You're causing this. And we know that sexual trauma as a form of invalidation correlates highly with some of the most devastating mental health problems, including borderline personality disorder, self harm, suicidality, ptsd, narcissism, depression, you name it.

A (44:51)

Yeah.

B (44:51)

Right. Because in those situations, you cannot. You don't learn to trust your emotions or your read of the situation because you're being told that it's wrong.

A (45:03)

Yeah.

B (45:03)

Right. You're getting competing messages of like, you're good here. No. Now you're bad. Right, right. And it's like, wait, which, what. What's okay? And so you defer to the environment to try and figure that out.

A (45:14)

Yeah.

B (45:15)

But the sense of self worth can be really deeply fractured.

A (45:19)

Oh, man. Mine was broken my whole life.

B (45:22)

So how, if you don't mind me asking, like, what turned for you 12.

A (45:27)

Years ago, right before. Well, right after I launched this show, I went to. My life was kind of falling apart. I hit 30, and on the outside things looked good. Like, I had a successful business and I You know, I was in a relationship and I, you know, I was like, I was physically fit. I was attracted. What. All these things looked okay, but all my relationships were falling apart, and I just had a lot of anger inside of me that was starting to come out, and I was reacting in situations and just like, very easily triggered and.

B (46:05)

And that was a change. Like that start. Like, did that build over time?

A (46:08)

I think it just amplified.

B (46:10)

Okay.

A (46:10)

It amplified. And I thought that making it would. Would solve some problems or something, you know, without having money or like, whatever. Having, like an audience or something would start to. I'd start to feel more validated.

B (46:24)

Sure.

A (46:24)

I don't know. I guess.

B (46:25)

Yeah.

A (46:26)

But it didn't. I just felt more angry. It was still inside of me. It was never released. You know, I would release it, you know, not in helpful ways. You know, it would just, like, come out, but it was still inside of me. I never transformed it and healed it. I would just react. And my. My best friend Matt, who you met when you coming in here, he was like, I got in a fight on a basketball court. Not with him, but he was there. And he was just like, man, I don't want to be around you anymore if you keep acting this way. It was a big wake up call for me.

B (47:00)

And you heard it, though, because that's like.

A (47:02)

It was like, not in the moment. It was like the next couple days. He was like, you know, you're not fun to be around when you're getting into fights like this and good friend. Yeah, he's a great friend. And it was just. It was a big moment. I mean, this was a big moment for me because, yeah, I just. I think I could have done some really bad things, you know?

B (47:20)

Oh, my God.

A (47:21)

Yeah, I could have done some bad. Like, I got in a fight and I realized, like, I really hurt this guy.

B (47:25)

Oh, my God.

A (47:26)

I mean, listen, the guy was bigger than me and he hit me first, but so I'm not, like, defending myself. He was fine.

B (47:33)

Yeah, but you saw the thing.

A (47:34)

But, like, seeing what I could do. Like, he was fine afterwards. Like, he wasn't, but he was. But seeing what I could do in just a moment, it was just like, oh, man, there's a freaking tiger inside of me.

B (47:45)

Did you feel out of control?

A (47:46)

No, I felt extremely powerful. Like, I felt empowered.

B (47:51)

Oh, wow.

A (47:52)

Because I was, like, taking back control because it felt like someone was attacking me and abusing me.

B (48:00)

Yes.

A (48:00)

It felt like there was a.

B (48:02)

It was a.

A (48:02)

It was like it was another form of abuse. It was on a Basketball court.

B (48:06)

Yeah.

A (48:07)

So it was a guy cheap shotting me. It was a guy saying nasty things. It was like. Like he was crossing a boundary. He wasn't playing within the game.

B (48:13)

Right. He was breaking the rules. Yep.

A (48:15)

And he was. And it felt personal.

B (48:17)

Yeah.

A (48:17)

And he headbutted me at one point, and so I just kind of, like, reacted, and it was just like, exploded. Right. And so it was like. It was a crossing of a boundary that he did, and then I responded from that. But then it was like they had to, like, rip me off of him. It was like. It was a moment where I was like, I feel no pain. I can destroy anything.

B (48:37)

So you were like your own protector in that situation.

A (48:39)

Yeah. And it felt very empowering because I was like, I'm not gonna let anyone.

B (48:43)

Hurt me, and I'm strong enough to prevent that.

A (48:46)

But then when I saw the aftermath, I was, like, shaking. I was like. I went back to my apartment, I looked myself in the mirror. I had, like, you know, bloody knuckles, and I was just shaking, trembling, looking in the mirror. And I was just like. I didn't recognize myself. And I was just like, who are you? I was just looking at myself. I was like, what are you doing? He said this the next couple of days, and that was like a wake up call. It was like, okay, like, I need to reflect. I get to do some. Get some coaching, get some therapy, go to some workshops. And it was a process of all these things that really supported me. Over the next 12 months, I finally opened up about the sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years.

B (49:28)

How did that feel?

A (49:30)

Terrifying, originally.

B (49:32)

Yeah.

A (49:32)

Then freeing.

B (49:33)

Yeah. Right?

A (49:34)

Terrifying. Like, my world was gonna. I was like, I was gonna die. That's how it felt. And I was like, no one is ever gonna talk to me.

B (49:42)

That was the fear. Like, you would just be rejected, ostracized.

A (49:45)

Yeah. I was like. Because at this point, this was 12 years ago, I had never seen a man talk about sexual abuse. Like, being sexual. I'd never seen someone that looked like me. Sports background, business guy.

B (49:56)

Sure.

A (49:56)

I never seen it. It wasn't something that people talked about on TV or social media.

B (50:00)

And if you didn't see it, that means it doesn't exist. Like, those two things cannot happen.

A (50:03)

The only one, like, I didn't have heard another person say that they were sexually abused. Except for women.

B (50:10)

Yeah.

A (50:11)

Like, I heard that, but I never heard men. So I was like, I'm even that much more lovable because I'm the only man. Right. And it was just. I Never saw it, sure. So it was just terrifying to talk about. And now I can be grateful for that suffering, even though it was not enjoyable in the moment, 25 years of it. But I can be grateful now because I truly believe I can empathize and understand what someone has experienced emotionally and psychologically who's gone through some type of similar experience.

B (50:46)

You can validate in a way that I can't.

A (50:48)

I can validate the one in six women in a certain way.

B (50:52)

Yes.

A (50:53)

And the one, excuse me, one in four women and one in six men who've had some type of sexual misconduct, sexual abuse or sexual trauma. I can feel it without them even saying it. People come up on me all the time and they say, I appreciate your story. I really appreciate. I listen to the podcast, I read the books, and, you know, I, I can just, I, I have a similar backstory. That's all they have to say. And I know what they're saying. Like, it's not all the other, like feeling dumb in school and dealing with all this other stuff. It's like, I know it's like a shift in their body when they say it that I'm like, just give me a hug. And they start trembling. It's like a tremble. Because they haven't spoken it. I know they haven't spoken it. And they're probably just barely saying it to me momentarily.

B (51:44)

It's like this little whisper, little, like putting that in the universe.

A (51:46)

I'm letting you know that, hey, I have a similar backstory and I can just feel it. And I'm like, you're going to be okay. Allow yourself to heal. Right? And just the hug, it's just giving me a hug, I think is kick starting the process for them to start that healing journey. I never got that. I never got that. And it was terrifying. And I thought, no one's going to, like, accept me or love me or care, you know, I was like, I'm done. Like, my life is over. But that's when life began because I started to heal. And in chapter four, page 55, you write about finding meaning and suffering. But I guess the challenge is when, when I'm trying to reflect back when I was in it.

B (52:27)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (52:28)

It doesn't even seem feasible because it doesn't for me. It didn't feel like anyone could understand me. Like, when I was in school, the teachers didn't get me, the principals didn't get me, the coach, like, parents weren't understanding me. They were going through their stuff. It was like peers didn't understand me. So if no one's gonna understand me, no one's able to validate me.

B (52:47)

Yeah, screw you. It's not about you getting your validation, it's about you paying it forward.

A (52:51)

Ah. So get out of needing someone else to validate me and just add value. Find a cat, find a plant. Like whatever you are in your season of life, give to where you can give.

B (53:01)

Yes, yes. The more desperate you are in kind of trying to get what you need. Validate others. Yeah, right. You're. It's, it's a, it's a fool's quest. You're not gonna get there.

A (53:13)

Suffering.

B (53:14)

Yeah, that is it. So like in that moment, that's what I'm saying. Like if you're hearing this and you're suffering, like, don't do this just to feel better. Cause you're not gonna feel better right away. You may not even feel better. Like you might ten years from now be like, well, that was crap. Yeah, I saved a couple cats, but totally not worth it. Fine. Like you might not feel better, but at the world will be better in some way, shape or form because you suffered. If you make that the case, then that's full stop. That's all that needs to happen.

A (53:45)

And I guess if you look, if you ask yourself at the end of my life, was it worth carrying the weight of sadness and suffering and depression and never feeling good, but no one validated me and I died a suffering, sad person. Or if you can look forward to your future self and say, I don't know if anyone's going to ever validate me. I don't know if I'm ever going to get out of this suffering or if I'm ever going to do anything good in life, but I'm going to do my best to make a difference with cat, a dog, a plant, a friend, and give and contribute in some way. And I'd rather suffer my whole life and be someone that contributes than suffer and just be sad.

B (54:24)

Absolutely.

A (54:24)

It's like if you're going to choose one or the other, it's like at least be a contribution.

B (54:29)

And then side note, I'm pretty sure that that service stuff that you do is going to make you feel better, but don't count on it.

A (54:34)

Yeah, but you're right, it pretty much will. Yeah, it was very wonderful.

B (54:37)

Not like Loki. No, but that's true. I mean, at the end of the day, are you going to live a life that was, that leaned into your values or are you going to have tantrumed for 80 years about the fact.

A (54:52)

That people didn't validate and played victim your whole life. It's like, that's not an empowering place to live from.

B (54:58)

No, that's letting. It's just re traumatizing. Re traumatizing. Re traumatizing. The new Huggies Snug N Dry are luxuriously soft and ultra dry. How soft are we talking? Unbelievably soft? Irresistibly soft? Doesn't your baby deserve a diaper that's oh, so gentle on their tushy? Huggy Snug N Dry helps keep them comfy, cozy, and protected. Experience the unexpected softness and up to 100% leak protection. More parents choose the new Huggies Snug n Dry softness versus the leading premium diaper Huggies. We got you, baby.

A (55:34)

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B (55:56)

On your next campaign.

A (55:57)

Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. When you're doing clinical psychology work and you're working with either elite executives or clients who are dealing with extreme suicidal thoughts, what is typically the turning point for each one of them to start getting out of suffering? Once you validate them, once they feel seen and acknowledged, like you understand the pain that they're going through and you can sit with them and they feel heard, when do you see people starting to shift to taking action, to creating new thinking, new behaviors, new routines, and therefore, a better life?

B (56:42)

It's interesting. We were talking about this a little bit earlier. I see a real difference between the folks that I'm coaching as an executive coach, right? Folks in corporate or startups or whatever, and my mental health patients. Now, in part, it's because the suffering over here is so, so heavy. There's also this belief that becomes a truth, which is that I can't get better. I can't do better. And there can be a real sensitivity around me suggesting that they do different things. Because then it's like, well, then are you saying that I'm bringing this on myself, that I'm bad, that I'm whatever. My executive coaching clients, they're like, all right, we've got 50 minutes. I have a notepad and can I record this? Right? Like they are. They're so much more receptive and open. And that, in my experience, is the best predictor of who will succeed in either situation.

A (57:37)

So you need a willingness or receptiveness to try something new.

B (57:41)

Yes. I'll often say, please, you don't think this will work? Please prove me wrong. Please collect some data and prove me wrong. All right. And plenty of people have come back and said, it didn't work. Here's why. And I said, oh, yeah, because you did this thing. Yeah, try it again. But like that willingness, that is the predictor of who succeeds and who doesn't in either scenario.

A (58:01)

Yes. But how do you get someone who is suffering and doesn't believe they can change to be willing to try something new?

B (58:09)

Well, one, I help them validate, make sure they know that I understand where they are at. Because if I don't understand that, then why the hell should they trust me when I say, go this way? It's like, you don't even know where I'm at. Right. Once they do, then I need to project a level of we're in this together. Because that feeling of I'm alone with this, that is a cancer.

A (58:32)

That's scary.

B (58:33)

So I need to target that and say, like, all right, we're going to do this together. Text me when you use this skill. Let me know how it goes. You know, text me a picture of when you're outside just to show me the beautiful day. Like, let's do this together. Yeah, that's pretty critical.

A (58:49)

Yeah. Okay. So having some accountability, having them check in, trying stuff. Got it.

B (58:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (58:55)

I've got a couple of final questions for you. We're talking about your book validation, Dr. Caroline Flack. Make sure you guys pick up a copy. And if you're looking to improve the quality of your life, a lot of beautiful skills, science in here, research that show you how to connect in an influential, empowering way with anyone in your life to validate them and to show them you understand them. Because that is the key to unlocking more vulnerability, more connection, more openness, more love. And you said earlier that love is not enough in a relationship. We also need validation to feel a deeper connection, to feel a real connection. A real connection. So would you say love is kind of like a surface level emotion and validation is like a.

B (59:39)

No. I would say that love is contingent upon validation. And so, I mean, you can love a facade, but, like, in order for one to experience love, they need to have first felt, seen and accepted?

A (59:55)

Yeah.

B (59:55)

Because otherwise, like, what does the other person love? You? Some version of you that you like, you know, manufactured, that doesn't feel like connection? I think that's why so many of us feel lonely in our relationships is because, like, we are. We are not seen for. For our weaknesses or our strengths in the way that we. We want to be or we need to be. When we come to our partner with a problem, they try and solve it. They try and resolve it. They don't say, like, oh, my God, that makes total sense that you. Whatever.

A (60:26)

How do you know when to validate versus solve? When a partner comes to you with stress, overwhelm, or a problem.

B (60:34)

So one of the single greatest pieces of advice I got when I was in graduate school was when someone comes to you with an issue, you've got to decide, do I respond with problem solving or validation? Ask yourself that every single time. Because in any given moment, you can only do one or the other. Now, if I open with problem solving and that doesn't work, I can go back to validation. If I validate and that works well, I can switch to problem solving. But at any given moment, ask yourself, like, how should I respond here? Because nine times out of 10, we respond. With problem solving, we fix. Nine times out of 10, people are seeking validation.

A (61:15)

Oh, man.

B (61:16)

And so doing this.

A (61:18)

So even if you validate for a few moments, a few minutes, start there, and then you can.

B (61:24)

Yeah, I mean, so there's some caveats to that, actually. So, like, my executive coaching folks, like, they come in, they're ready to go, and if I'm like, oh, it makes no sense that you were, like, frustrated at that meeting because so and so is. And they're like, yeah, I don't care. Great, let's go.

A (61:36)

Tell me what to do.

B (61:36)

Yeah, right. And so there is that.

A (61:38)

Know when to go into action. Solving. Problem solving versus validation.

B (61:43)

Yeah. And so I screw that up all the time, and then I just switch to the other. But I'm clear in my head, there's, like, intention behind what I'm doing. I'm not just, like, shooting from the.

A (61:51)

Hip, like, sure, sure, sure.

B (61:52)

Letting my emotion dictate how I respond.

A (61:55)

And would you even say we should ask our partner, are you looking for validation right now, or are you looking for a solution?

B (62:02)

Yes. I asked my daughter this. She didn't get the teacher she wanted a couple, you know, a couple years ago now. And my response is, do you want validation or problem solving? Problem solving would be me calling the school or us trying to figure, like, set up some play dates with new kids because none of your friends are in the class. Validation would be. And she said validation. All right, that sucks. There is nothing worse Than looking at the year ahead of you and seeing, you know, just this hellscape of no friends, bad teacher.

A (62:34)

Yeah. Uncertainty. The daunting uncertainty of middle school. Yeah.

B (62:38)

So this should be language we use. You can't expect people to, like, know what you need in any given moment.

A (62:44)

You don't know.

B (62:44)

Right. And so you should also be able to say, like, I'm just. I got a lot going on. Could you just validate me right now? Like, Matt, my husband, and I have these conversations all the time, and we're constantly reorganating, reorienting each other. And it's not like a contentious, like, why aren't you validating me? Type of feeling. It's more just like, oh, no, you're in the wrong lane. Like, this is what I. Yeah.

A (63:07)

Yeah. Or even if you don't want to use the word validate, maybe just say. Can you just listen to me?

B (63:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (63:11)

You just hear me for a moment.

B (63:12)

Yeah. I just need to feel heard.

A (63:13)

Yeah. Not respond. Yeah. With the solution. But this is powerful. Caroline, a couple final questions. This question is called the three truths. So imagine hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want to live in this life, and you get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish or experience everything you want to experience. But it gets to the last day in your life, many years away. And for whatever reason, on this last day, you have to take all of your work with you. This book, we don't get to have content. This interview, it's gone hypothetical. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons with the world. Three things you have experienced to be true in your life, that you would leave behind three messages. What would be those three truths for you?

B (64:02)

Don't squander your suffering. Validation is the path to love. You are enough as you are. Those probably the three.

A (64:13)

That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Caroline, for the journey you've been on.

B (64:18)

Oh, thank you.

A (64:19)

It's been a. It's been a wild one. But I want to acknowledge you for taking the journey when you're, you know, in your teens and in college to say, how can I find a solution for me yourself, to get out of this pain and suffering, to create more sense of peace and order inside of me so I can help others around me. And for the last 15 plus years, you've been in service, researching and helping others find validation and peace within them. So I want to acknowledge you for the journey you've been on, for helping so many people, for saving lives, literally for creating this book so that others can have the skills and the tools to validate themselves and others and create that sense of peace in a world that might be suffering for them. So I acknowledge you for this journey. Yeah, of course. My final question Caroline, what's your definition of greatness?

B (65:10)

Greatness, in my opinion is always striving for greatness. I think in a non judgmental way. Just always striving to do better the next day for the world and for yourself. Like if that is your North Star, if that's the God you worship, I think you'll be great.

A (65:36)

There you go Carolyn. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

B (65:38)

Thank you so much.

A (65:38)

Appreciate it. Amazing. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy and if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life. But you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to make moneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment. Moving forward, I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for any a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Here you are.

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U t e n.