How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

Summary

The School of Greatness: Episode Summary Title: How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind
Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Hozier
Release Date: December 6, 2024

In this transformative episode of The School of Greatness, Lewis Howes engages in a deep and introspective conversation with the acclaimed musician and poet, Hozier. Together, they explore the intricacies of unlocking creativity, overcoming personal barriers, and harnessing the visionary mind to create impactful art. This summary delves into the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn from their dialogue.

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1. Overcoming Creative Blocks and Fear of Judgment

Understanding the Root of Inhibition
Hozier opens the conversation by addressing what he perceives as the primary barriers to creativity: fear of judgment and the misconception that only special individuals can create great art.

Hozier [01:41]: "Everyone has the capability to make great things and none of us are special."

Lewis Howes [02:01] elaborates on how societal focus on others' opinions can trap individuals in creative ruts. He shares anecdotes about aspiring writers who hesitate to pursue their dreams due to fear of criticism.

Strategies to Break Free
Hozier emphasizes the importance of taking action without waiting for permission or the perfect resources. Drawing from his punk rock background, he highlights the "do it yourself" mentality as a catalyst for creativity.

Hozier [02:40]: "There's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else."

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2. The Intersection of Confidence and Vulnerability in Art

Balancing Confidence with Emotional Exposure
The conversation shifts to the role of confidence in artistic endeavors. Hozier discusses the delicate balance between being confident and remaining vulnerable, suggesting that true creativity stems from emotional honesty rather than sheer self-assurance.

Hozier [13:11]: "It's a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through."

Lewis Howes [12:35] mirrors this sentiment by recounting experiences with artists who possess immense talent but lack the confidence to perform under pressure.

The Power of Vulnerability
Hozier shares an inspiring story about Johnny Cash, illustrating how authentic and honest artistic expression can lead to profound success.

Hozier [10:04]: "We went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound like the Living Room recordings. But there was some intimate honesty...that led to the first album."

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3. Meditation, Manifestation, and the Visionary Mind

Hozier's Meditation Practices
Hozier reveals his long-standing relationship with meditation, beginning at age 14. He describes how different forms of meditation like Transcendental Meditation (TM) and Tai Chi have helped him maintain mental clarity and creative flow.

Hozier [15:42]: "I learned when I was 14 and it's been a big part of my life the whole time."

Belief in Manifestation
The discussion delves into Hozier's belief in manifestation, emphasizing pure intention and dedication over focusing solely on outcomes.

Hozier [20:00]: "I believe it's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out."

Lewis Howes [26:07] poses questions about the nature of manifestation, leading Hozier to elaborate on situational awareness and recognizing when the universe is guiding one's creative journey.

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4. The Healing Journey: Mental Health and Self-Discovery

Personal Struggles and Growth
Hozier opens up about his battle with self-doubt and a combative relationship with himself, which significantly impacted his creative process during the pandemic.

Hozier [46:48]: "I was taking my own medicine... I had a very largely a combative relationship with myself."

Lewis Howes [51:50] and Hozier discuss the importance of cultivating a healthy relationship with oneself, emphasizing ongoing therapy and self-reflection as vital components of personal healing.

Integration of Pain into Identity
Hozier articulates how embracing past pains has become integral to his identity and creative expression.

Hozier [70:37]: "Every single thing that has ever happened to me... has become a part of the quilt of who I am."

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5. The Spiritual Aspect of Performance and Creativity

Flow State and Presence on Stage
Hozier describes the spiritual experiences he encounters during performances, relating them to a flow state that enhances his connection with the audience.

Hozier [60:24]: "When I'm on stage, there's a kind of a flow state... it's about remaining grounded and present."

Navigating Distractions
He shares challenges with staying present, such as being preoccupied with daily tasks even while performing, and how mindfulness practices aid in overcoming these distractions.

Hozier [62:13]: "I couldn't hold with one thought at the same time. It was challenging."

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6. The Role of Poetry in Healing and Self-Expression

Creating Authentic Art
Hozier discusses his poetry as a means of healing, emphasizing authenticity over perfection. He explains his process of letting the muse guide him without over-strategizing.

Hozier [83:56]: "I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into."

Sharing Personal Stories Through Poetry
He shares a poignant example of a poem about love, illustrating how personal experiences and emotional honesty contribute to powerful artistic expression.

Hozier [78:10]: “The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy... Love is not a guarantee... But love is worth the pain we feel...” [84:56]

Balancing Personal Healing with Public Sharing
Hozier reflects on the vulnerability involved in sharing deeply personal work and the fear of rejection versus the necessity of authentic expression.

Hozier [74:08]: "Because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing who they are."

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7. Lessons in Self-Love and Artistic Integrity

Embracing Self-Love in Creativity
Hozier emphasizes the importance of self-love as foundational to creating meaningful art. He encourages artists to prioritize authenticity over external validation.

Hozier [82:54]: "Don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great."

Navigating External Pressures
The conversation explores how artists can remain true to themselves amidst external pressures to conform or achieve certain metrics of success.

Hozier [74:42]: "I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you."

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Conclusion: The Essence of Greatness through Authentic Creativity

In closing, Hozier and Lewis Howes underscore that true greatness in art emanates from a place of authenticity, vulnerability, and self-love. By embracing one's true self and overcoming internal and external barriers, artists can unlock their full creative potential and leave a lasting impact on the world.

Final Thoughts from Hozier [24:27]:

"Greatness is a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God."

Lewis Howes wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to embark on their own journeys of self-discovery and creative expression, reinforcing the idea that greatness lies within unlocking one's authentic self.

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Notable Quotes:

• Hozier [01:41]: "Everyone has the capability to make great things and none of us are special."
• Hozier [02:40]: "There's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else."
• Hozier [13:11]: "It's a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through."
• Hozier [24:27]: "Greatness is a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God."
• Hozier [82:54]: "Don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great."

This episode serves as a profound exploration of the creative process, mental health, and the spiritual dimensions of artistic expression, offering invaluable insights for anyone seeking to unlock their inner greatness.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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[Hozier]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Unknown Artist]

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[Hozier]

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[Unknown Artist]

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[Unknown Artist]

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[Hozier]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Unknown Artist]

I think it's being concerned what other people think and a feeling of the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true. We're all everyone has the capability to make great things and none of us are special.

[Lewis Howes]

It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said, and it almost it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me say I want to write a book and I ask them how long have you been had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing? And some people will say 5, 7, 10, years. But they've been worried about what people think or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

[Unknown Artist]

I think taking action is a really great thing. And not setting up barriers of entry. Like, I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background, so in punk rock, it was a do it yourself mentality. And, you know, I started my first record company not knowing. Not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a 7 inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else. I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission to actually make their art. To make their art, someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book. If you write a book or set the stage to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

[Lewis Howes]

When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm gonna, how do I sell these? How am I gonna give them away for free?

[Unknown Artist]

What was the process for you, combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one? That was always any of the things I've made. It's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

[Lewis Howes]

But at this point, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

[Unknown Artist]

I still think in those terms, though. I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on, not because of an endowment.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's interesting. I know you're.

[Unknown Artist]

I don't know why, I don't know why, really? But that's just my. And maybe it's just the way I was brought up may just be, what.

[Lewis Howes]

Does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

[Unknown Artist]

I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and.

[Lewis Howes]

Being.

[Unknown Artist]

True to themselves, whatever that is. Feeling, Feeling their truth.

[Lewis Howes]

And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

[Unknown Artist]

It's just a feeling. I feel it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. I think something that you said was, I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me.

[Unknown Artist]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying something doesn't feel right.

[Unknown Artist]

It starts with a feeling. Always it starts with the feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling if there's a reason, like if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, this. Feels like this. Is there a way to figure out why? Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this or this? Let's try those things, see what happens.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist, after you've been introduced and you say, okay, let's do this. We're gonna work together? Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

[Unknown Artist]

I'll say, when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety, really is always. Because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in, start. And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have. I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's going to go. And it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an. You know, some artists have an expectation that I'm going to do something. I can't do anything, you know, Right. It's like it's either going to happen or it's not going to happen. So. But then usually within. Sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what Was that. How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is. This is what it wants to be. And that may change also. It may. That may be the first inclination. It could start that way. And then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The. The work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have. The reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it.

[Lewis Howes]

That's what there's no control.

[Unknown Artist]

Not.

[Lewis Howes]

And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's going to do well, I need to make money, I need to make the label happy, whatever it is, my fans need to love this, then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you?

[Unknown Artist]

No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page, even the people we're ignoring, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this. I need this. Now, ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State warriors, who told me, there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Unknown Artist]

And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? It's like, if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game, from the.

[Lewis Howes]

Flow, from the practice, putting in the reps. Yeah, showing up.

[Unknown Artist]

And then I say, well, if. Then it's up to you what's more important, to please them or to win?

[Lewis Howes]

Man, this is fascinating. Was there, was there? What was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced, where just like, everything was lining up. Authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every, every day. And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest. But it also landed commercially and took off.

[Unknown Artist]

The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash, because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success, and he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't. He didn't even know why I was interested. That really was a conversation. It's like, what do you think? Why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else? Like, he had given up. And for him to get into it. We recorded in my living room, and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time. We were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs. It was almost like a way for us to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing or a song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs. We went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound. It didn't have what the Living Room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty. And we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as, that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s. So that was a. And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together. And he had confidence based on the experience of the first one, which he'd expected nobody to care about, really took hold with people. And then on. I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song. And that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Artist]

And that was a real revelation.

[Lewis Howes]

How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice, but then they lacked the confidence in the game, and they looked like an average player.

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Does that. Is that the same thing with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians where they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, they don't have the confidence. Does that hold People back. Have you seen that?

[Unknown Artist]

I'll say it's not as simple as that because there's a. There's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through that combination, which is a difficult combination.

[Lewis Howes]

It's almost like what I'm hearing you say. This is really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like, you just gotta. If you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.

[Unknown Artist]

That's true. There's. I'll say, though, to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Unknown Artist]

It's just part of the. It's a hard thing to do. I couldn't imagine doing it.

[Lewis Howes]

That's true. A friend of mine, just, Rachel Platten, she just. She wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had, you know, she started a family over the last five years, so she's got two young kids. And I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out and she's like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a band with these new songs in a while, and I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful.

[Unknown Artist]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

It was like, we're rooting for her. You know, she. She messed up a few times, but she kept going. And she was like, hey, I'm going to restart this, and thank you, guys. You know, but it was like, wow. It made moments of, like, awe and magic happen.

[Unknown Artist]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

It was so cool.

[Unknown Artist]

Yes. And it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the. It's what. It's what's not ordinary. If it was. If it was machine, like, perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter, right? It's all the same. So it's the. It's the edges. It's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

[Lewis Howes]

Talk about transcendence. You talk about manifestation and the universe. I know you're a big meditator how long have you been meditating for?

[Unknown Artist]

I learned when I was 14 and it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually, but I go through phases of five years on, two years off, or something might replace it. That's another kind of a meditation. Like I may go from TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi, and Tai Chi will fill the slot of my TM time.

[Lewis Howes]

Transcendental meditation. Yeah. If you could go back to your 40 year old self, what would the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the products you were working on, the people in your life. Knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then?

[Unknown Artist]

I would always say just have as much fun as possible because we. I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things, and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And I'm hard on myself in that way, in that I have high expectations and I think we can have fun too.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. What brings you the most joy?

[Unknown Artist]

I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach, laughing together, reading together, watching movies together, you know, watching wrestling. I like pro wrestling.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, of course.

[Unknown Artist]

Pro wrestling with my son's fun.

[Lewis Howes]

That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or UFC now?

[Unknown Artist]

Always been pro wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

[Lewis Howes]

They do hurt each other.

[Unknown Artist]

That's why I like wrestling. It's like, it's more. Everybody's on the same side, right? For it to be the best show.

[Lewis Howes]

They want it to be a win win.

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah, it's a win win.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, you talked about that and you know, this documentary series about, you know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the BC boys in a commercial. Like just being this hype man promoter. Like, you know, how much has, I guess pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

[Unknown Artist]

A lot. A lot. Because it's. It's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery and great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story, and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends, you know, it's like, we don't know but sometimes they really do hate each other. And then the matches are different when they really hate each other. But you never know when it is. So there's a sense of. And I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny. I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling because it's the most like the world.

[Lewis Howes]

Huh?

[Unknown Artist]

In the world. We don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on a, you know, airs.

[Lewis Howes]

Or a performance, a mask.

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah. Or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. So there's this, like, performative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that the, you know, wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real.

[Hozier]

That's what it is.

[Lewis Howes]

I want to go back into what you talked about with, you know, you mentioned transcendence, and I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer with this, you know, particular song. With System of Down. What's your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in a, you know, artists should be thinking in that way, or what's your thoughts on it?

[Unknown Artist]

I believe in it a million percent. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So when I say it's like, I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out, and that ends up being a manifestation mindset. But it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it. I want to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that you can manifest things. It happens. It's it. But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome.

[Lewis Howes]

Ooh, what do you mean?

[Unknown Artist]

I'm never asking for a result.

[Lewis Howes]

What are you asking for?

[Unknown Artist]

I'm asking for to. To rise to the occasion, to make the best thing that I can for the thing that I make to be great.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Unknown Artist]

Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know. Most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means it's a devotional. It's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Artist]

If you're making a gift to God, there's no greater. You can't put more into it than that. You know, you can't. What about the single? What about. What about what someone's going to say who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God? That there's. You're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Artist]

That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness. Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for. But I've come to realize what it is.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. You have a whole kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which I loved your explanation in there, that is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is a pure gift of yours to God.

[Unknown Artist]

Yes. And it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do. This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.

[Lewis Howes]

If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be?

[Unknown Artist]

I don't think there's a formula.

[Lewis Howes]

Is there an art to manifesting?

[Unknown Artist]

I don't know. I don't. I think it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do and then really dedicating yourself.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing, because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing. Maybe it's the right time now. Maybe it's five, 10 years away from now. How do we really tap into that knowing?

[Unknown Artist]

I think it's situational. And I think, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you, it directs you. An example. I may have three different ideas that I'm excited about, and I kind of get them all going, and then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators. Impossible. Some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying, now is not the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting, because, you know, I. I love this. And I also hear the other side of the. I guess the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know, Ryan Holiday.

[Unknown Artist]

I did.

[Lewis Howes]

The Obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of, like, when the obstacle is there and presents itself. And you also feel like this is something you want to do. Like, you've got to kind of go through that pain and, you know, overcome it.

[Unknown Artist]

That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle, but I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently, and there's another path, right, that's going smoothly, and you feel the same about both of them, you know, over the effortless way.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Artist]

Well, pay attention. See, when. When is the universe giving you a push? When is that? When is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I'm. I would never suggest not fighting through the work. It's. It's. It's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now's not the time. It's like all. Everything you throw at it gets deflected. Right?

[Lewis Howes]

But this other thing is guiding you, taking its own.

[Unknown Artist]

Taking on its own life. Earlier, you asked about what I perceived to be a shortcut. And a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing. And I think that the real question is, how much more can I give to the thing I'm making? What else can I give to it? And thinking in terms of how much more can we do, not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts, it's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four hour work week. I loved it, you know I loved it, but that stopped. It's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be. Commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. And so do you. So you think that as artists we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

[Unknown Artist]

Doing anything that's within our power. If it doesn't have to make sense, nothing has to make sense. You know, it could be when I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter. Don't question it, just do whatever works, do it.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative feedback versus people are going to like it or hate it or whatever, they're going to respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it, no matter what happens to it in the world?

[Hozier]

I will say before releasing it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of. There's this. Maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible unease. And I think usually before releasing an album there's this awful purge of like cortisol that happens. And like, you know, I've talked to a lot of artists about this where like you're in tears before the. Before it happens and you're exhausted and the catharsis that you'd hoped you would get from it never arrives, you know, and so there is that. I think there has to be. Maybe there's just. There is some resource that you pull from that brings you to a place where you are in absolute commitment to the fact that the work needs to exist, that it doesn't matter what anybody has to say. The song wants to be written. The song has in some ways. And I sometimes think of it like this. When an idea comes through, the song is asking to be written. It feels ready to be worked on. And to deny it, that is kind of going against your nature, which, you know, you kind of have to do what you have decided you're here to do so. There's something that is willing to be made. It's willing itself to be made through you. And it's like you either do it or don't, but don't. Sorry, excuse me. Don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea because a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well too.

[Lewis Howes]

And someone else is going to put something similar out.

[Hozier]

Exactly. Yeah. That actually happened. I mean, artists talk about this. I've certainly experienced it. You have an idea for a song and six months later you hear it on the radio and somebody else. Somebody else's has played with the themes that you were thinking of. And it's. We're all living in the same similar societies or, you know, so it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we're all very similar stimuluses, whatever it is. But you have to. There has to. I don't know, there is a. There's a resource that you pull from that that is just, you know, this needs to be made. And like, what was it like, you.

[Lewis Howes]

Know, when you came out with your first song that was a mega hit? What was the feeling before that launched versus, you know, the most recent Unreal on Earth? You know, is the feeling still the same, you know, 12 years later? Is there a different feeling at this season of Life as an artist, you know, before you launched the recent album.

[Hozier]

And defeating it on the first song, I was so, like, I was such an unknown and that I just was watching it's. Its uptake. Slowly but surely. There was these moments where, okay, it was reaching another audience. I was like, oh, my God. It's like that the video has been seen by 10,000 people. Oh, my God. That was a huge deal for me at the time. I think it was like, it was like on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know, huge. It was huge. You know, and then it was. Then it was starting to be played. I think some of the earliest. I think the first one of the first radio stations I played it in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio. And like it was being Shazammed. And we were watching like somebody was telling me, oh, yeah, it's just been Shazammed in like parts of the world, parts of the states that I, I'd never been to the States. I never thought that it would. I would be where the music would be heard. This, at this, at this point, people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist, you know. Really? Yeah. Honestly, they. They I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they. They assumed that I was like an American import, you know, that I wasn't. They didn't know that I was from Ireland because I. I hadn't been releasing music all that long. And then there was this kind of. This kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, in that song. This kind of swampy sort of vibe and. Yeah, so. So it's different. You know, I think that you. There's. There's. Sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit. You know, there's some. There's a lot to be said for.

[Lewis Howes]

Having to that feeling. Right?

[Hozier]

Yeah. Having nothing to lose.

[Lewis Howes]

The naive, like, oh, this is really exciting. It just.

[Hozier]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And feeling like every. Every inch you gain is a. Is a. Is a huge deal and is a big win and you've nothing to lose. And you. You have. You can prove everything, but also if nothing happens, it's like, it's okay, you know, go away. Come back when you're. When you're ready. You know what I mean? But it's so. It's trying to maintain that maybe there's. There's something to be. You can still maintain that sort of mindset, a little bit of like. Of. I think when you. And this is also maybe something that you can. It's good to. To. To practice or to. To. To investigate or think about is when the stakes seem higher or you've, like, on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you, that it's somehow, you know, it could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's. But we had you create this idea of like, I don't know, you just. You want more from it or you, you know, so that's.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you navigate that? Like when you launch, you know, an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind, you're like, well, I hope it does this many downloads or streams in the first month or year.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

If it doesn't do that or if it does do that, how do you navigate that expectation?

[Hozier]

I think it's always just about. I try to just bring myself right back to. Because you do. And you look, you work with. You partner up with business like labels and stuff like that, and they wanted to win, you know. Yeah. And they're competitive by nature. And it's great that you have a team that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to a large audience and There's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this. Independent artists, maybe, you know. And what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I want to give it every chance that it can. It can reach as many years as possible and let those ears decide. And I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it? If I believe in it, and I love it enough that I feel it's. It's worth releasing, it's worth being out in the world, I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or it doesn't. I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it. There's some songs I'm quite proud of such that if they were. If they weren't heard by a hundred people, I. I would say that song is still of the quality and that I wanted it to be. The quality of the work doesn't change. Whether it's listened to. Listened by a million people or a billion, billion times, or it's listened by a thousand thousand people or 100 people or 10 people, the quality of the work doesn't change. So I just try to bring it down to, am I happy with the. With its quality?

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful. I think that's a good lesson for any artist.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes. If you have a career or business around it, sure, you want to figure out a way to make money and survive, but I think you have to be proud of the quality of work. No matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy.

[Hozier]

Totally, totally. Does it represent you?

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Manager, there's a lot I would love to talk more about with you. We'll have to have you back on another time, but I want people to check out your new album, Unreal on Earth. I want them to come to watch you live on tour, man. Which I'm going to do one of these days.

[Hozier]

Please do.

[Lewis Howes]

They can. They can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that is right?

[Hozier]

Yes. Yeah. Tour dates. Unfortunately, not many shows left.

[Lewis Howes]

Then you get notified when you do do more.

[Hozier]

Exactly, exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm curious. In the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success and experience and making all this art? And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today?

[Hozier]

Stuff I've learned about myself is. I mean, I've done a lot of personal. Personal work. I used to think that realizing that creating maybe this is one thing I can offer that being creative and creating and my relationship with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself, you know.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you mean by that?

[Hozier]

That it's a thing. It's like whether it's self doubt or it's self criticism, an internal monologue that is, that is largely negative and something I took for granted my whole life. It didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I, When I realized I. I honestly felt I was never going to write another song.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah.

[Hozier]

Sometimes during the pandemic and I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore and I felt I'd written my very last song and, And I had to come round to. Okay, no, this is, this is, this is just. It's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me, you know. So I think that was, you know, in the pandemic that was part.

[Lewis Howes]

Weren't able to tour, you weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that towards a distraction, but you weren't able to. You had to sit still now.

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And hear everything coming in.

[Hozier]

Yeah. And in some ways tour is a magnificent distraction and it's a job in which you're constantly putting head fires, you know, Every day is another little crisis, you know. And you know, I still get. I won't say, would you call it stage fright, but like I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terrible. You know what I mean? Every day is like, really? Oh, yeah. Ten minutes. Yeah, my. I can't do this. Yeah, come on. Yeah. Yeah. There's an element of like nerves and like I'm not able, I, you know, I'm not able to do this. It's so funny. I was joking with some of the band and this is maybe a musician thing where two weeks, we had a few weeks break. I was a month into a couple of weeks after break and I was, I was trying to think. Now this is maybe because a lot of playing is muscle memory. You don't think about when it's automatic, you know. But I was, I was trying to think to myself, like, how do I play that song on guitar? I could not visualize or I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement. So. But yeah, no, there is, there's, there is, there is always this creeping voice that's, you know, and it's. Look, it's immaterial. You. You. You find your way around it. You find your way. You step over it, you know, and you. And you ground yourself and stuff. But. Yeah, but in so. But creatively, I think when you are exactly as you describe, there was no distractions like in. During the pandemic, so. But tour is. There's plenty. There's always something to do, whether it's press promo, you know, meetings. I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time. So that's looking at artwork, video edits, mix is mastering. And I'm constantly, I'll be honest, like, constantly. A little bit overwhelmed. Like just a little bit under overwhelmed, you know, and like, just the nose is like, you know, you're on the.

[Lewis Howes]

Line, you know, can barely breathe.

[Hozier]

But yeah, yeah. And part of me, you know, it's also realizing, okay, is this. Is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here?

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Hozier]

And because.

[Lewis Howes]

Because you didn't want to face yourself, maybe.

[Hozier]

Yeah, you just. Yeah, you operate. Operate well in that space, or you. At least you function in that way. But.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, maybe it's not well, but you're like. You're operating.

[Hozier]

Yeah, you're operating, or you're. You're. Yeah, you're operating. You're getting everything that needs to be done, done.

[Lewis Howes]

And so pandemic hits and that all stops and you have to face yourself.

[Hozier]

I guess so, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour? You weren't seeing people and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet.

[Hozier]

I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of. It's just a lowness, you know what I mean? Just a sort of a very. Like a. You know. And I think. I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is, you know, will be familiar with it, but it's this kind of. I just slowed down in all. In all. In all forms. And I just felt no rouge. I saw no ability to. To write, nor it was. And any. Any attempt to make it was seemed impossible. I also fully believed. And this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not. I did not know how to write a song, despite all evidence against it. I was like, oh, no, I actually don't know how to do this.

[Lewis Howes]

So how many songs had you written at this Point.

[Hozier]

Oh, like, you know, probably, you know, over 100 or you know, obviously ones that don't get released.

[Lewis Howes]

Right?

[Hozier]

Like, yeah, but like, like there's something I do do all the time, but there's something enters into the mind and I realize it's like, oh, no, this has nothing to do with this. This is something else. So again, it's about relationship itself, you know, and so that was something I learned.

[Lewis Howes]

What was your relationship with yourself like?

[Hozier]

I think I didn't have much of one, you know, so. And it was more just realizing, okay, I'm gonna have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know, and actually kind of put, you know, begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself. And actually, so that was the beginning of one of the more significant changes in my life, I would say, is tending to actually, you know, by the time I was 30, actually like, like tending to, let's say, mental health and a relationship with self and which I had, I had just avoided doing, you know, because I, I could sort of. I felt like maybe I could work my way around it or I could, I could, you know, but once you can't run anymore, you know, it's. I'd sometimes describe it as the hamster wheel had to stop spinning, you know what I mean? And so you. Then you're forced to sit in your little cage, you know what I mean? So, and wow, kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, made something not right about this.

[Lewis Howes]

What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing. When you get a new car or a new home, your first reaction might be to say things like oh yeah, or I can't believe it or booyah. But what you really want to say is the one thing that can get you the help you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm is there. With the COVID coverage you need for your car, your home, and Even boats, motorcycles, RVs and other things that matter to you. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help you choose the coverage you need. So many coverage options, it feels good knowing you can find what fits for you. And when you need ways to get help, State Farm gives you options there too. In person or on the phone with your local agent, or on state farm.com where their award winning app, State Farm lets you do things your way. So when you need help protecting the things that matter most, remember to say like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Some people think self care is indulgent. You know, firsthand, that's a myth. And you know what else is a myth? That Discover isn't widely accepted. The truth is Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard that right, 99%. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. It pays to Discover. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discovery.com credit card yourself.

[Hozier]

I think it was. I'd say, you could say it was defined by. I had a very largely a combative relationship with myself. So I was absolutely at war with myself constantly. Constantly? Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that be?

[Hozier]

It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought, you know, so it's like my brain was kind of split in two that it. I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that.

[Lewis Howes]

So like, no, that's not real. That's not true. This is the truth. This is real.

[Hozier]

And yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Going back and forth.

[Hozier]

Yeah. Or it's. And. But when in. At times. And like, I guess like your state, you know, you're not always. Sometimes you're a seven. Some days are three, some days are nine. Some days are. You know, creatively, it's like that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful. No, it's not. You know, so you. I couldn't hold. I couldn't hold with one thought at the same time oftentimes. So it was, it was challenging. I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of, of like my whole experience, but that's probably for another, you know, but, but no, it definitely put roadblocks up, you know, and so that was a big change when I started to address that.

[Lewis Howes]

How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't. I mean, I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland growing up, there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity and, you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life?

[Hozier]

There wasn't. There wasn't really, you know, and, and especially. It's not something even, I mean, More so my parents generation would have had any sort of. Not. Not really, you know, not in a kind of a. This is something we can talk about. It's a day to day thing, you know, can I suck it up and.

[Lewis Howes]

Let'S not talk about it and keep moving forward and just everything's good.

[Hozier]

Very 1970s, you know. But I'm very grateful to sort of to. To. To have access to. To more. To be more present in. In the day to day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just. Yeah. Just having this kind of.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow, man.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So you're allowed. I mean, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I wrote a whole. I wrote a whole book called the Mask of Masculinity. Okay. Seven years ago now. Yeah. Where. Because growing up, I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man. I could never cry. I can never show my emotions in school, sports. And it tormented me inside, you know, it tormented me emotionally, feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong. But it wasn't my truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate therapy myself and reflect and heal. And it was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks and open myself up to myself, turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them and start to heal the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of and started to integrate my current self with my younger self and mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the nervous system.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

To create alignment.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

With the present and the now. And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free. And as I'm sure you're. You're in right now, healing is a journey. And I'm 10 years deep in the healing work and I've never felt more free. Also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work.

[Hozier]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Like I still go to therapy every month. I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way. And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art. And I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering. It seems like, rather than peace and joy. But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself. And it's just a. Probably a messy process.

[Hozier]

Yeah. The whole sharing from or writing from also, let me just. I just want to address. It's like, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And it's beautiful. It's also, it's. It's very similar to what you, what you describe. And I think I was 30 also. It took me 30 years of living in a way where. Where I realized I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore. And I've waited too long to feel like I. I can. I can cope. You know what I mean? And it isn't interesting that no amount.

[Lewis Howes]

Of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for.

[Hozier]

Yeah. 100% isn't that interesting. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But I think a lot of people. I don't think that's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that. You were being an artist and it took off.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But I think a lot of people in society, in the world are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have, you know, flashier things or success, to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And the more I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point.

[Hozier]

Totally. And I think it's largely unconscious and this driving. You know what I mean? But that sort of thing of dry. And I do think about this a lot. Whether would I be driven to be. You know, because surely the work. It's his question. Surely the work is enough. Like, if I just. If I just loved songs and I just wanted to write them, do I need everybody to hear them? You know, what's, what's, what's the point One tour.

[Lewis Howes]

Why do this? Why did. Yeah, yeah.

[Hozier]

You know, why did I. Why did I need it? So there is. I sometimes wonder, you know, what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what. You know, And I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view, and I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally there's. I think you. You might be Correct. In that there. Where there is a there, all of us are driven in some way from maybe some, some unobserved place that, that in some way that all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved. All my, you know, we all imagine this picture in our, in our heads, you know, of that arrival point that just never comes or you get there, you'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind and then you. And. But the feeling is not there.

[Lewis Howes]

It's still not enough.

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You still want more.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing? Oh, they're getting this opportunity, right?

[Hozier]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's something you shared about, you know, that thing, it's kind of that self parenting thing of like gaining relationship with yourself as a child. A friend of mine once described, described it quite, quite beautifully, I have to say, of like getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding. Pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them and to stand in space, whether through the window of their home or at some event that they were at and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there and to say, hey, look, you know, look where we are. You did this. You know, and I'm quite moved by that. Just to, just to bring your child into that and go like. Because there's some, there's some. Sometimes there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, no, I took myself away from these circumstances and I did all of this on my own. But to turn around to your kid and say, hey, you know, I want you to see this.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Hozier]

And how, how great you did, you know, and how you, you did this. You know, we did this together. Isn't this cool? And just to, to let your kid sort of smile at that.

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful.

[Hozier]

And him. Yeah. And I think it's that one. I think that's a, that is a life changing relationship thing. You know, I think with yourself, if you can do that. But again, yeah, I, I mean I, I had no language for this until I was After a few years ago. Yeah. Till a couple of years ago. So I'm still. Why my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow, man, this is beautiful. I'm so happy you're talking about this though. And don't feel, and you know, don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough. And you may never need to do that publicly either. It's just.

[Hozier]

I appreciate it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. It's not a. There's not a pressure here for that in any way, but it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. That's what I'm hearing you say.

[Hozier]

Yeah, I think. I think so. I think so. I'm also. I'm realizing that it's. It's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also. It's like. It's a. It's like to not do it. I think when you start on. On that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself, you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option, you know, or not, you know, or it's an option, but you've done that. You know what I mean? Or. For what's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life and you feel the experience of living that you would like to get to. It's like you realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you think, Andrew, is available for you emotionally, internally, and externally in the world? As you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself? What do you feel like is available for you or your mission?

[Hozier]

I think it's. This is maybe not just necessary for the. For the work as well, too, for being creative. I just want to walk in step with myself and in a way that. That feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work and to, I guess, to feel at peace in. In whatever the work is that needs to be made.

[Lewis Howes]

Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to, where you felt afterwards. That's not really what I wanted to do or. But I did it for ego or because whatever reason it happens.

[Hozier]

I won't give examples. It happens. Or you catch yourself. You catch yourself in a thought of like, yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone to turn. You know, it's like I always approached things with, like, leave no stone unturned. It's like, you know, just do everything. Yeah. And every opportunity. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Or that can be draining and exhausting.

[Hozier]

Can be draining.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Hozier]

And learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Hozier]

Or a habit of, I think. Yeah. Or I'M I'm. I'm a real. And I think this is an. I'm proud of this trade in myself. But that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour, I can, I can focus, hyper focus on something in that, in those last few, you know, but, but what happens is sometimes I'll agree to, to do something and I'll be fully in my mind of like, I do want to do this. It's like, will you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break? Will I use this time to work? And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. And then in afterwards, I realize, okay, why am I, why am I feeling exhausted when I burn down? And now I can't function, you know, I can't work as I want to work, you know, So I do want to, I do want to address, you know, hopefully get that.

[Lewis Howes]

This has been a powerful section, so I'm way forward talking about this. But I have a question about.

[Unknown Artist]

A.

[Lewis Howes]

Couple of other things around your performance experience. I feel like I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. I'm curious for you, what has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different?

[Hozier]

Here?

[Lewis Howes]

I'm feeling something different. There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to. Or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the word. Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe inspiring while performing?

[Hozier]

There's definitely moving, moving experiences. I was going to joke that I think the spiritual experiences for. To be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've. And I've. I've been in such elation. I've been like so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy and all enjoying the same thing. And maybe I was going to make a joke. It's like, it's a. The preacher is the least spiritual of all people. You know, person at the person at the top. It's. Everyone else is engaging in the spiritual experiences. Preachers. I'm just kidding. But. But I think when I'm on stage, there's a kind of a flow state, you know, that you hope to come into. And that's another thing where it's like calming My mind. And this is all connected. It's all connected with mental health. It's all connected with, like, wellness, but then also like mindfulness as well too. And mindfulness was a big change for me. It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was. You know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just. Yeah, it can happen. It can happen. And realizing I, you know, remaining grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not so meditating before shows, I find really, really helpful.

[Lewis Howes]

How would you get distracted on stage.

[Hozier]

Before it can happen where again, if I'm releasing music, there's a lot of emails that I haven't unanswered. I swear to God before.

[Lewis Howes]

You're like, oh, thinking about it.

[Hozier]

Yeah. But you could be on stage in the middle of a song, playing a chord and singing lyrics and in your mind. I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back.

[Lewis Howes]

Come on.

[Hozier]

Really?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Holy cow.

[Hozier]

Yeah. Oh, no. You're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing. And how's that even possible?

[Lewis Howes]

How do you stay. I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you gotta send to Larry.

[Hozier]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And management or something.

[Hozier]

It's. It's not great. It's like. And I don't. I think that. I think the show, potentially my worry is that the show, I think because it's muscle memory that you just can do it, but it's, it's. It doesn't. You don't feel great about the, about the show, you know, because you weren't present. You know, so it's been a while now since I would. There's also. That's kind of before, that's when my mind was totally just like haywire. And so mindfulness, you know, meditation and stuff and super helpful.

[Lewis Howes]

That helps you keep. Keep it present now on stage.

[Hozier]

On stage. Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

I think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity, more peace, more presence, more compassion, more self awareness. And it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

I would say emotion is energy in motion. So it has to move. And if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us and it can become disease, you know, disease. Or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Unknown Poet]

So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories. That are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body. And there's many modalities to do that. You do breath work. You can, you know, do yoga. You can go to boxing even, and have an intention behind your practice. You can, I don't know, meditate, go to therapy. There's plenty of avenues, but one that is underused is creativity. You can create and move the energy, and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else. And you can feel energetically lighter and more free.

[Lewis Howes]

What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process, that is giving you the most healing personally, like when you wrote it, you felt you were healing. Every time you read it or perform it, you feel like you're healing. What is that poem?

[Unknown Poet]

Well, I have two immediate answers that come to mind. The first one is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Unknown Poet]

And the real answer is going to sound cliche, but it's everyone. And then the next one, the one that hasn't been written because it's the most current and in real time to my life, and whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express. It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience, so I'm not thinking, what do other people want to hear? I'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off and I pluck it out of reality and I put it down on paper. And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Unknown Poet]

So every single one is a healing process. And it's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing. Because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, how do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them. If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So, so how then do we get down to the source of them? So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from.

[Unknown Poet]

That is a great FedEx doesn't know.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Unknown Poet]

You have to do is you have to hold two truths in the same space at the same time.

[Lewis Howes]

Give me an example.

[Unknown Poet]

Personally holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness and gratitude. But I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the peace. So the peace was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Poet]

Simultaneously. And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen to really like, see and be seen to be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength. It's scary as and it is always worth it.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. So when did you write this poem about your dad?

[Unknown Poet]

I was in my mid-20s.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So like 20 years ago?

[Unknown Poet]

Something like that?

[Lewis Howes]

Something like that.

[Unknown Poet]

45.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So when you wrote It. How long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How. How long did it take you to be like, I'm at piece of this. I forgive. I'm at peace?

[Unknown Poet]

Well, I think people think that peace is a destination or like a product. Peace is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself. So right now I can say I am as fully at peace as I have ever been. I can't say that I am fully at peace. But one thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not, in real time or in retrospect, has become a part of the quilt of who I am. I don't like to compare circumstances. I don't like to compare pain. But I've had a lot of pain in my life, and everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now. So if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

And so you have to accept it in order to integrate it, in order to alchemize it, in order to move on with it.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe it took you a long time to overcome, or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome and you really wish didn't happen in the moment, and maybe you still don't wish, but, you know, you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain.

[Unknown Poet]

I think there's a lot of them that come to mind. I'm not going to share some of them because I'm not ready to put them on display, but I go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal. You know, when I created the Neverending now album, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it.

[Lewis Howes]

I know. Remember?

[Unknown Poet]

You know, I was there because you were one of the few people that I sent it to.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

And was willing to trust because of your integrity, because of our friendship, and because I love you.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

And I know you've been through real things.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

And so I was like, okay.

[Lewis Howes]

But it's scary putting it out there 100%. Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

I'm taking my own medicine. You know? So I was like, all right, let me. I finished this thing, this work of art that was like a reflection of my path to self, love and love with a Partner through poetry. And this conversation that was very intimate that I had with my wife.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

And then I was like, I don't know that I want to show this to people. Or even weirder, monetize this thing and leave it open for people to criticize it, to judge it, to validate it, to compliment it. It didn't really matter what their response was. I didn't want to externalize my self worth that way because it was so close to my heart. And then I was like, all right, I'm going to send it to, like, five people. And I sent it to five people, including you and Mike Posner, who's a great friend. And Mike was the first person that got back to me. And my criteria for sending it out was, okay, if one person hears the album and hits me back and says, hey, this was moving and meaningful to me, like, this landed, then I would put it out. But if everybody was like, yeah, this is good. I really like it. I think you should, then I wasn't gonna do it. And so Mike hit me back right away, and he was like, literally, he goes, if you don't put this album out, he said, I'll pry it out of your cold, dead hands. And then I sent it to you guys, and you listened to it and had, you know, a similar but different response.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

Then I was like, all right, let me. Let me lead by example. Even though it's hard and scary, why.

[Lewis Howes]

Is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment tied to it in some way? Why is that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists?

[Unknown Poet]

Because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are. But the thing is, like, if I get rejected, if I put this project out and people don't respond to it, or worse, they really don't like it, then at least I know they don't like something that's really me. I mean, I know that the art is separate from me. It's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Unknown Poet]

And so I'm like, all right, if they don't like it, at least I know I showed up. Rather than making something that's perfect that everybody's gonna love. And then they say, wow, I love this thing and I love you, but I don't even feel it because I was never there.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, it wasn't fully authentic. It wasn't fully you.

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Unknown Poet]

How do you do that? Like, for example, I Was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years, driving over here and the courage that it took to do that. Well, what was and is your process?

[Lewis Howes]

I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, through family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was so depressed. You know, this. This line from, like, Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like, depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing. Something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like you've been wearing some mask. You've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you.

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid. If you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me. And then I would be alone, and then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life. It's kind of the fear that I had. And so I think I just felt like I'd rather be alone and no one like me than everyone know, you know, just parts of me and not all of me. And I think it got to that point when I hit 30, that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of, and I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people. And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore. Now it's scary on the other end because I didn't want to live alone. And I don't want to have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there, that you may not be liked or understood or loved. You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear. But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me.

[Unknown Poet]

I very much relate to that. I have a line that says you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like that disguise thing that you're talking about that character that you're playing. And you're doing it for good reasons. Survival, you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from.

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly.

[Unknown Poet]

But the thing is, it's exhausting to.

[Lewis Howes]

Walk around with all that armor draining. What was that. What's that poem called that you were just.

[Unknown Poet]

I think it's called Birdsong. You know, I never really like name my pieces until I actually put them out.

[Lewis Howes]

Can you share that one? Can you perform that one? Do you have that one?

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah, I actually do. The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming. I listen without even understanding. The truth, without agenda is authentically astounding. It makes me think of cheetahs. They don't run for our approval. They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal. It makes me think of wolves. They don't howl for validation. They don't have to get the perfect pick to post on their vacation. It makes me think of eagles. They're not soaring to impress me. Although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet Ski. My point is, neither one of them would sell me on Etsy. And I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy. Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Poet]

Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut, chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut? And for what? It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up. In this moment, I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough. I'm dismantling my image. We are perfect in our flaws. Birds don't care whether we listen. They don't wait for our applause. I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the wall. So if love is my religion and I'll escape when freedom calls. You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise it's your representative they're thinking of. But to truly be yourself you have to let go of what was. The past is like a prison. It's an echo repeating Just because we are many people in our lives. So I'm not one to judge. But if they love one part of you, it's limited to what that does. I want your whole soul. I have no goal. Show Me, the unseen stuff. Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect. Makes me want to kick my feet up. No one's living in a catalog IKEA dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase a hundred zebras? Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell? A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly. So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell?

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Wow. When did you write that one?

[Unknown Poet]

I don't remember.

[Lewis Howes]

Is it like a few years ago? Or is this like a decade ago? I mean.

[Unknown Poet]

No, it's like a few years ago.

[Lewis Howes]

It's more recent. Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

I was on the phone with a friend of mine and the birds were just, like, really loud. And during the conversation, I said something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Poet]

And then I thought, you know what? I like that.

[Lewis Howes]

That's a good. That's a good line.

[Unknown Poet]

Pause the conversation. I wrote it down and then started to build on it later.

[Lewis Howes]

Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love?

[Unknown Poet]

I think all of them in some form or fashion, but I think some of them are self love, Some of them are romantic love. Some of them are love of God, Some of them are love of humanity, nature, all of it.

[Lewis Howes]

What would you say? How long have you been doing poetry? Would you say, like, officially, you know, as part of your thing? Not just like, I did it when I was like, seven, a little bit here and there, but, like, what was the year where you're like, oh, I'm doing this consistently. Do you remember?

[Unknown Poet]

I mean, I think I'm past 30 years.

[Lewis Howes]

30 years.

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah. It's like one of the longest, at least internal relationships of my life. You know, my. My relationship with rhythm and rhyme.

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn?

[Unknown Poet]

Well, it's something that I try to teach other people, like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person, and why we created this journal in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there. I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying, don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great. And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn over and over and over again, because if I sit down and I say I'm going to make something great, I'm just getting in my own way, I'm turning my back on the muse. I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me are poems where I'm surprised at where they go.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Unknown Artist]

Yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

Because I don't, like, get overly strategic before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into.

[Lewis Howes]

So it might be okay. I heard the birds sing. And you thought of this idea. Maybe you're on the phone with a music person. You're like, oh, they're not singing. Win a Grammy. And you're like, okay, where could I take this? In other areas of life, Is that kind of how it starts, or.

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah, okay.

[Lewis Howes]

The birds are this. The wolves this. The bears the this. You know, it's like, let's keep the analogies going.

[Unknown Poet]

And then, yeah, it's like, basically, you're. You're building railroad tracks, and you're the railroad tracks, and you're the train, and you are the conductor, and you're the beginning, middle, and end.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Unknown Poet]

Destination wherever you wind up. And you're also none of those things because you're the. The observer.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Poet]

So it's a spiritual practice. Creativity.

[Lewis Howes]

You have this other. Do you call them poems? When you put something online, like an Instagram post, is that, like a short poem, or is that, like, a phrase within a poem, usually?

[Unknown Poet]

Well, yes, it's a. Usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is, to be quite honest, very annoying to me. You know, I want. Of course. Please follow me on Instagram. But it's like, I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is. And that's why I'm excited to put out actual, like, finished pieces that people can experience on their own time. So it's a great window into my work. But. But I'm not sure.

[Lewis Howes]

Snippets. It's not the full thing. You have this, you know, poem within a poem, I guess you call it, about love that you shared recently. That said, love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on your belief so it will bring you to your knees. Love is weak. Love is lost. Love is grief. Love is loss. Love is risk. Love is real. But love is worth the pain we feel. Where did that come from?

[Unknown Poet]

Let me say the next line.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Unknown Poet]

And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my gosh. Can you share that whole poem?

[Unknown Poet]

Yeah, yeah. Let me actually give you the. Behind the context.

[Lewis Howes]

Give me the context.

[Unknown Poet]

So I was doing this collaboration piece, and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project. I don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Poet]

But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written, and it ends, save the day with love. So we're on this, like, planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing, and one of the guys goes, hey, is there any way we can change the final word? Because he goes, love is a bit soft. And he goes, I want to end on something that has more, like strength and pizzazz. And I was like, no, because it's not your poem. First of all, yeah, no, respectfully. Second of all, I don't look at love as soft. I said, I look at love as hard. And he goes, okay. And then the conversation ended and I hung up and I wrote this piece. Love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is not smooth Love is scarred Love is not perfect, Love is flawed Love is not quiet, Love is loud Love is not pride, Love is proud but love is not certain. Love is doubt and love is not leaving. Love's turning around. Love's learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle, Love is rough Love is not fragile, Love is tough Love is not thinking that love is enough so I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up. Love is a revolutionary act. Love is an attack. Love is not abstract, Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no. Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low. Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy, Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong. Love is context. Love is not black or white. Love is progress. Because love is not a product, Love is a process. Yes. So in the simple moments when the chaos fades away in the silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way and how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive. That's why I have to say Love is not a guarantee it will come and it will leave. It relies on my belief so it will bring me to my knees. Love is weak, Love is lost. Love is grief Love is lost, Love is risk. Love is real. But love is worth the pain I feel and I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Unknown Poet]

I'm gonna love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you I'm gonna love you harder More than ever before I'm at peace with knowing love is war. That's what we're fighting for. So love harder. First yourself, then your family, your friends, your coworkers, your neighbors in your community. Then try to love a stranger. Try to tap into your empathy. Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy. Now try to love the people that you don't love at all. Even people you don't like. They probably need it most of all. And if you can't love them big, see if you can love them small. See if you can hold compassion for the souls that they are.

[Hozier]

And they are.

[Unknown Poet]

But love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is scarred. Love is flawed, Love is loud, Love is proud, Love is doubt. And since love is most important when we do not know how, I will choose to love you harder in the Never ending now wow.

[Lewis Howes]

Holy cow. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now time to go out there and do something great. Cut the commute and up the convenience.

[Hozier]

For your next dermatologist. Visit Non segmental vitiligo patients 12 and older can virtually discuss repigmentation with Opzelura Ruxolitinib cream as soon as today. Get started on your pursuit for repigmentation with topical Opzelura.

[Lewis Howes]

Visit Visit opzelura.com to connect with a derm to see if Opzelura is right for you.

[Hozier]

Provider availability may vary. For patients taking therapeutic biologics, other JAK inhibitors, or strong immunosuppressants such as cyclosporine, Opzelura is not recommended. Opzelura can lower your ability to fight infections.

[Unknown Artist]

Tell your doctor if you have or.

[Lewis Howes]

Had an infection, tb, hepatitis B or C blood clots in your legs or.

[Hozier]

Lungs, heart attack, stroke, cancer, high cholesterol.

[Lewis Howes]

Are a smoker or pregnant Opzelura may.

[Hozier]

Cause serious lung infections, certain cancers, immune.

[Lewis Howes]

System problem, blood clots and low blood cell counts.

[Unknown Artist]

Major cardiovascular events or death occurred in.

[Hozier]

Those 50 plus taking oral jak inhibitors. The most common side effects were acne.

[Unknown Artist]

And itching where applied.

[Hozier]

Call 866-564-8484 to learn more about prescription Opzelura for non segmental vitiligo at Capella University.

[Lewis Howes]

Learning the right skills could make a difference. That's why our business programs teach you.

[Hozier]

Relevant skills you can take from the course room to the workplace. A different future is closer than you.

[Lewis Howes]

Think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].