The School of Greatness Podcast

Episode Title: Narcissism Experts Reveal How To SPOT, Handle & Heal From Trauma

Host: Lewis Howes
Date: February 25, 2026

Episode Overview

This "masterclass" episode brings together top experts—Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Vanessa Van Edwards, Esther Perel, Jerry Wise, Annie Sarnblad, and Dr. John DeLoney—to explore narcissistic dynamics: how to spot narcissists, manage relationships with them, recover from the trauma they cause, and break cycles for healthier, more fulfilling connections. Drawing from clinical psychology, relational therapy, behavioral science, and body language analysis, the conversation delves deep into the types of narcissism, behavioral red flags, childhood roots of trauma, and the journey toward self-trust and boundaries.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Understanding Narcissism: The Six Types

[03:11–10:56] — Guest: Dr. Ramani Durvasula

• Grandiose Narcissist:
  Charismatic, charming, pretentious, arrogant—often high-achievers.

• Vulnerable Narcissist:
  Sullen, petulant, passive-aggressive, feels like a victim, failure to launch, blames others for lack of progress.

  • “These are people who live in fantasies of the great things they're going to do, but they never do them.” — Dr. Ramani [03:26]

• Malignant Narcissist:
  Most severe form; merges narcissism with psychopathy, Machiavellianism, sadism, paranoia; coercive/menacing.

• Communal Narcissist:
  Gains validation as a ‘rescuer’ or ‘do-gooder’—publicly benevolent but abusive/neglectful privately.

  • Example: “Some communal narcissist could be a mother who does all the activities…the PTA, helps Little League…and goes home and screams at her kids.” — Dr. Ramani [04:56]

• Self-Righteous Narcissist:
  Judgmental, rigid, moralistic, miserly; successes attributed only to self, denies luck or context.

  • "[T]he reason I'm in shape and I'm going to live to be 179 years old is because I do all this and you don't. You, you lazy, awful person." — Dr. Ramani [08:24]

• Neglectful Narcissist:
  Views others as objects; cold, un-attuned, absent unless in need; partners feel invisible.

  • “It's as though I didn't exist, but then when I had the piece of information or something they needed, I existed.” — Dr. Ramani [10:32]

Notable Moment:
Lewis asks, “Is it possible to be self righteous and not be a narcissist?” Dr. Ramani: "I don't think you can ever be self righteous and healthy…” [08:02]

2. Spotting Danger: Narcissism & Body Language

[11:08–30:00] — Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards

• Charisma vs. Narcissism:
  Charisma can be authentic or manipulative (“my biggest fear with this book is people using it for manipulation” — Vanessa [11:32])

• Danger Zone Cues:
  Certain body language reveals hidden intentions or lies and is hard to fake long term.

  • Lip Pursing:
    A universal “withholding gesture” seen when lying or uncomfortable [13:41, 15:03].
  • Distancing Behavior:
    Leaning away when fibbing or hiding discomfort [16:20].
  • Blink Rate:
    Liars/nervous people blink more; trying to “block out” the uncomfortable situation [16:56–17:42].
  • Voice Tone:
    Artificial deepening (ex: Elizabeth Holmes); harder to sustain over time and leaks when relaxed (“when she was drunk, her voice went back to normal”—Vanessa [19:47])

• Integrity Leaks:
  Trying to show warmth to toxic people is felt as inauthenticity and drains self-integrity.

  • Vanessa advocates setting boundaries over fake niceness.
  • "The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people." — Vanessa [21:37]

Memorable Exchange:
Lewis: “Is it better to be inauthentic and lie…or just be honest?”
Vanessa: “I don't believe in fake it till you make it…C option here is to not fake warmth, but to double down on competence.” [23:48]

3. Narcissism in Relationships: Overt & Covert Patterns

[31:42–43:39] — Guest: Esther Perel

• Cultural Narcissism:
  Explains narcissism as both clinical diagnosis and social phenomenon (the “selfie culture”).
• Overt vs. Covert Narcissism:
  • Overt: classic manipulator, charming/seductive then discards.
  • Covert: controls via victimhood, guilt-tripping, passive aggression.
    • “You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath.” — Esther [34:39]
• Personal Loss & Grieving:
  Lewis shares his “ambiguous loss” with his father; Esther describes how unresolved grief is a kind of “blockage” (and the inability to cry/release is a sign of emotional suppression).

Notable Quote:
Esther: “I do not want to talk about complex topics in a short amount of time because it doesn't do them justice. And I don't like to reinforce notions that have not been examined.” [36:11]

4. Parental Narcissism & Intergenerational Trauma

[45:37–55:33] — Guest: Jerry Wise

• How Narcissism Shows up in Parenting:
  Narcissistic parents rarely apologize (“They want to apologize. Why would they apologize? You made them do it.” [46:24])

• Core Harm:
  The real dysfunction is when parents unconsciously continue their own inherited patterns (the “trance” of family trauma), impacting children’s self-worth, boundaries, and emotional regulation.

• Adult Children of Narcissists:
  Frequently internalize the parent’s judgment—high self-criticism, guilt, shame:

  • “They just take the voice from here [parent] and just live it inside themselves.” — Jerry [50:21]

• Breaking the Cycle:
  Healing requires self-differentiation—not necessarily cutting ties, but maturing emotionally so parental programming is no longer an internalized voice.

  • “It’s not you doing it to you. It’s your family still doing it to you through you. There’s a difference and that’s a huge difference.” — Jerry [53:03]

5. Microexpressions: Reading the Narcissist’s Face

[56:53–64:39] — Guest: Annie Sarnblad

• Lack of Kindness & Empathy:
  “They don’t show any kindness…they don’t care when I get hurt, or when anyone else gets hurt.” — Annie [57:00]
• Manipulative Eye Contact:
  Narcissists often hold prolonged, intent gazes to captivate and control [57:33].
• Mimicking Phrases/Behaviors:
  Narcissists learn “puzzle piece” responses that impress others but are empty, artificial [58:53].
• Crazy Eyes (“Upper Eyelid Retraction”):
  Unnaturally wide eyes outside appropriate context signal instability—common in psychopaths, abusers, or those under severe stress [61:42–63:02].
• Facial Mismatch:
  Joy mixed with fear/horror is a red flag (“That’s the Joker’s face from Batman. The arousal in the horror, the joy in the horror. That’s terrible.” — Annie [63:33])

Important Note:
Context matters. Seeing a facial expression doesn’t automatically mean someone is dangerous, but patterns + lack of empathy is the warning sign.

6. Healing and Avoiding Your Own Narcissistic Patterns

[64:41–71:48] — Guest: Dr. John DeLoney

• Self-Absorption & the Collapse of External Anchors:
  Loss of collective stories, clear community values, and external sources of meaning leads to self-centeredness:

  • “If there’s nothing to be in service of other than the self, then you are the supreme ruler of your world.” — Dr. DeLoney [65:15]

• Breaking Out of Shame & Selfishness:
  Lewis shares his own journey from ego-driven competition to fulfillment through service and collaboration.

  • “It's gotta be collaboration over competition…serve better.” — Lewis [68:43]

• Biggest Relationship Pain: “Me over us”
  When individuals prioritize their own feelings over the relationship/team.

  • John shares Esther Perel’s 9/11 analogy about rebuilding a relationship after trauma—you can’t rebuild using the “old materials.”
    • “My wife and I right now…we have a new marriage. And if you keep saying, I just want to get back to the way I was…you end up dragging each other back.” [70:32]

SELECTED MEMORABLE QUOTES

• Dr. Ramani [07:58]: "I don't think you can ever be self righteous and healthy because I think if you're self righteous you're like, I'm better than you, right?"
• Vanessa Van Edwards [21:37]: "The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people."
• Esther Perel [34:43]: "You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath."
• Jerry Wise [53:03]: "It’s not you doing it to you. It’s your family still doing it to you through you."
• Annie Sarnblad [63:33]: "That’s the Joker’s face from Batman... the joy in the horror. That’s terrible."
• Dr. John DeLoney [65:15]: "If there's nothing to be in service of other than the self, then you are the supreme ruler of your world."
• Lewis Howes [68:43]: "It's gotta be collaboration over competition…serve better."

KEY TIMESTAMPS

• [03:11] — Dr. Ramani: Six Narcissist Types
• [11:08] — Vanessa Van Edwards: Danger Zone Body Language
• [21:37] — How faking warmth hurts integrity
• [31:42] — Esther Perel: Cultural and relational patterns
• [45:37] — Jerry Wise: Parental narcissism & breaking family cycles
• [56:53] — Annie Sarnblad: Microexpressions & psychological danger
• [64:41] — Dr. John DeLoney: Self-narcissism & the importance of "us"

ACTIONABLE INSIGHTS

• Spot inconsistent public vs. private behavior (communal narcissists).
• Watch for body-language “leaks”: lip pursing, blinking, unnatural distancing.
• Notice if your relationships force you to perform “fake warmth.”
• Question internal self-criticism—whose voice is it really?
• Differentiate between authentic competence and manipulative charisma.
• Set (and keep) boundaries with toxic people—prioritize well-being over politeness.
• Healing comes from breaking inherited patterns and focusing on safe, reciprocal connections.

SUMMARY

This episode is a deep dive into narcissistic patterns: how to recognize them, the subtle red flags, healing childhood wounds, maintaining your own integrity, and reframing relationships for deeper connection and growth. Experts agree: true fulfillment is found through honest self-awareness, boundaries, and compassionate relationships, not through ego, people-pleasing, or self-sacrifice.

What boundary will you set today?
Share your reflections in the comments, and remember—you are worthy of safe, respectful, loving relationships.