Narcissism Experts Reveal How To SPOT, Handle & Heal From Trauma | Lewis Howes

Summary

The School of Greatness Podcast

Episode Title: Narcissism Experts Reveal How To SPOT, Handle & Heal From Trauma

Host: Lewis Howes
Date: February 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This "masterclass" episode brings together top experts—Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Vanessa Van Edwards, Esther Perel, Jerry Wise, Annie Sarnblad, and Dr. John DeLoney—to explore narcissistic dynamics: how to spot narcissists, manage relationships with them, recover from the trauma they cause, and break cycles for healthier, more fulfilling connections. Drawing from clinical psychology, relational therapy, behavioral science, and body language analysis, the conversation delves deep into the types of narcissism, behavioral red flags, childhood roots of trauma, and the journey toward self-trust and boundaries.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Understanding Narcissism: The Six Types

[03:11–10:56] — Guest: Dr. Ramani Durvasula

• Grandiose Narcissist:
  Charismatic, charming, pretentious, arrogant—often high-achievers.

• Vulnerable Narcissist:
  Sullen, petulant, passive-aggressive, feels like a victim, failure to launch, blames others for lack of progress.

  • “These are people who live in fantasies of the great things they're going to do, but they never do them.” — Dr. Ramani [03:26]

• Malignant Narcissist:
  Most severe form; merges narcissism with psychopathy, Machiavellianism, sadism, paranoia; coercive/menacing.

• Communal Narcissist:
  Gains validation as a ‘rescuer’ or ‘do-gooder’—publicly benevolent but abusive/neglectful privately.

  • Example: “Some communal narcissist could be a mother who does all the activities…the PTA, helps Little League…and goes home and screams at her kids.” — Dr. Ramani [04:56]

• Self-Righteous Narcissist:
  Judgmental, rigid, moralistic, miserly; successes attributed only to self, denies luck or context.

  • "[T]he reason I'm in shape and I'm going to live to be 179 years old is because I do all this and you don't. You, you lazy, awful person." — Dr. Ramani [08:24]

• Neglectful Narcissist:
  Views others as objects; cold, un-attuned, absent unless in need; partners feel invisible.

  • “It's as though I didn't exist, but then when I had the piece of information or something they needed, I existed.” — Dr. Ramani [10:32]

Notable Moment:
Lewis asks, “Is it possible to be self righteous and not be a narcissist?” Dr. Ramani: "I don't think you can ever be self righteous and healthy…” [08:02]

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2. Spotting Danger: Narcissism & Body Language

[11:08–30:00] — Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards

• Charisma vs. Narcissism:
  Charisma can be authentic or manipulative (“my biggest fear with this book is people using it for manipulation” — Vanessa [11:32])

• Danger Zone Cues:
  Certain body language reveals hidden intentions or lies and is hard to fake long term.

  • Lip Pursing:
    A universal “withholding gesture” seen when lying or uncomfortable [13:41, 15:03].
  • Distancing Behavior:
    Leaning away when fibbing or hiding discomfort [16:20].
  • Blink Rate:
    Liars/nervous people blink more; trying to “block out” the uncomfortable situation [16:56–17:42].
  • Voice Tone:
    Artificial deepening (ex: Elizabeth Holmes); harder to sustain over time and leaks when relaxed (“when she was drunk, her voice went back to normal”—Vanessa [19:47])

• Integrity Leaks:
  Trying to show warmth to toxic people is felt as inauthenticity and drains self-integrity.

  • Vanessa advocates setting boundaries over fake niceness.
  • "The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people." — Vanessa [21:37]

Memorable Exchange:
Lewis: “Is it better to be inauthentic and lie…or just be honest?”
Vanessa: “I don't believe in fake it till you make it…C option here is to not fake warmth, but to double down on competence.” [23:48]

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3. Narcissism in Relationships: Overt & Covert Patterns

[31:42–43:39] — Guest: Esther Perel

• Cultural Narcissism:
  Explains narcissism as both clinical diagnosis and social phenomenon (the “selfie culture”).
• Overt vs. Covert Narcissism:
  • Overt: classic manipulator, charming/seductive then discards.
  • Covert: controls via victimhood, guilt-tripping, passive aggression.
    • “You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath.” — Esther [34:39]
• Personal Loss & Grieving:
  Lewis shares his “ambiguous loss” with his father; Esther describes how unresolved grief is a kind of “blockage” (and the inability to cry/release is a sign of emotional suppression).

Notable Quote:
Esther: “I do not want to talk about complex topics in a short amount of time because it doesn't do them justice. And I don't like to reinforce notions that have not been examined.” [36:11]

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4. Parental Narcissism & Intergenerational Trauma

[45:37–55:33] — Guest: Jerry Wise

• How Narcissism Shows up in Parenting:
  Narcissistic parents rarely apologize (“They want to apologize. Why would they apologize? You made them do it.” [46:24])

• Core Harm:
  The real dysfunction is when parents unconsciously continue their own inherited patterns (the “trance” of family trauma), impacting children’s self-worth, boundaries, and emotional regulation.

• Adult Children of Narcissists:
  Frequently internalize the parent’s judgment—high self-criticism, guilt, shame:

  • “They just take the voice from here [parent] and just live it inside themselves.” — Jerry [50:21]

• Breaking the Cycle:
  Healing requires self-differentiation—not necessarily cutting ties, but maturing emotionally so parental programming is no longer an internalized voice.

  • “It’s not you doing it to you. It’s your family still doing it to you through you. There’s a difference and that’s a huge difference.” — Jerry [53:03]

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5. Microexpressions: Reading the Narcissist’s Face

[56:53–64:39] — Guest: Annie Sarnblad

• Lack of Kindness & Empathy:
  “They don’t show any kindness…they don’t care when I get hurt, or when anyone else gets hurt.” — Annie [57:00]
• Manipulative Eye Contact:
  Narcissists often hold prolonged, intent gazes to captivate and control [57:33].
• Mimicking Phrases/Behaviors:
  Narcissists learn “puzzle piece” responses that impress others but are empty, artificial [58:53].
• Crazy Eyes (“Upper Eyelid Retraction”):
  Unnaturally wide eyes outside appropriate context signal instability—common in psychopaths, abusers, or those under severe stress [61:42–63:02].
• Facial Mismatch:
  Joy mixed with fear/horror is a red flag (“That’s the Joker’s face from Batman. The arousal in the horror, the joy in the horror. That’s terrible.” — Annie [63:33])

Important Note:
Context matters. Seeing a facial expression doesn’t automatically mean someone is dangerous, but patterns + lack of empathy is the warning sign.

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6. Healing and Avoiding Your Own Narcissistic Patterns

[64:41–71:48] — Guest: Dr. John DeLoney

• Self-Absorption & the Collapse of External Anchors:
  Loss of collective stories, clear community values, and external sources of meaning leads to self-centeredness:

  • “If there’s nothing to be in service of other than the self, then you are the supreme ruler of your world.” — Dr. DeLoney [65:15]

• Breaking Out of Shame & Selfishness:
  Lewis shares his own journey from ego-driven competition to fulfillment through service and collaboration.

  • “It's gotta be collaboration over competition…serve better.” — Lewis [68:43]

• Biggest Relationship Pain: “Me over us”
  When individuals prioritize their own feelings over the relationship/team.

  • John shares Esther Perel’s 9/11 analogy about rebuilding a relationship after trauma—you can’t rebuild using the “old materials.”
    • “My wife and I right now…we have a new marriage. And if you keep saying, I just want to get back to the way I was…you end up dragging each other back.” [70:32]

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SELECTED MEMORABLE QUOTES

• Dr. Ramani [07:58]: "I don't think you can ever be self righteous and healthy because I think if you're self righteous you're like, I'm better than you, right?"
• Vanessa Van Edwards [21:37]: "The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people."
• Esther Perel [34:43]: "You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath."
• Jerry Wise [53:03]: "It’s not you doing it to you. It’s your family still doing it to you through you."
• Annie Sarnblad [63:33]: "That’s the Joker’s face from Batman... the joy in the horror. That’s terrible."
• Dr. John DeLoney [65:15]: "If there's nothing to be in service of other than the self, then you are the supreme ruler of your world."
• Lewis Howes [68:43]: "It's gotta be collaboration over competition…serve better."

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KEY TIMESTAMPS

• [03:11] — Dr. Ramani: Six Narcissist Types
• [11:08] — Vanessa Van Edwards: Danger Zone Body Language
• [21:37] — How faking warmth hurts integrity
• [31:42] — Esther Perel: Cultural and relational patterns
• [45:37] — Jerry Wise: Parental narcissism & breaking family cycles
• [56:53] — Annie Sarnblad: Microexpressions & psychological danger
• [64:41] — Dr. John DeLoney: Self-narcissism & the importance of "us"

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ACTIONABLE INSIGHTS

• Spot inconsistent public vs. private behavior (communal narcissists).
• Watch for body-language “leaks”: lip pursing, blinking, unnatural distancing.
• Notice if your relationships force you to perform “fake warmth.”
• Question internal self-criticism—whose voice is it really?
• Differentiate between authentic competence and manipulative charisma.
• Set (and keep) boundaries with toxic people—prioritize well-being over politeness.
• Healing comes from breaking inherited patterns and focusing on safe, reciprocal connections.

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SUMMARY

This episode is a deep dive into narcissistic patterns: how to recognize them, the subtle red flags, healing childhood wounds, maintaining your own integrity, and reframing relationships for deeper connection and growth. Experts agree: true fulfillment is found through honest self-awareness, boundaries, and compassionate relationships, not through ego, people-pleasing, or self-sacrifice.

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What boundary will you set today?
Share your reflections in the comments, and remember—you are worthy of safe, respectful, loving relationships.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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Find a better way to [e-mail] the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Northwestern Mutual Wealth Management Company. If you keep finding yourself drained, confused or questioning your worth after certain relationships, then this episode is for you. Now, have you ever wondered, why do I always attract this type of person? Or why do I feel so small after loving them? Well, I hate to break it to you. You may have been dealing with a narcissist and you didn't even realize it. And the truth is, narcissistic dynamics don't always look like what we expect. They don't always look like a loud ego. Sometimes they look like care. Sometimes they look like protection. And it can be confusing. So how do you spot it and how do you protect yourself? And most importantly, how do you heal from it when you've dealt with it without carrying that damage into future relationships? Well, today I've put together a powerful masterclass where we're bringing in the world's leading experts and we're going to be helping you identify the signs, break patterns and rebuild your self trust and learn how to create healthy, safe and Secure relationships moving forward. In this first section, we have narcissism expert Dr. Ramani Durasala. She is the gold standard on this topic, and she's going to break down the six different types of narcissists that you need to look out for. So let's check this out.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Grandiose, which is a traditional, arrogant, pretentious, charming, charismatic, you know, kind of shiny narcissist. That's your kind of prototype of the narcissist. There's the vulnerable narcissist. This is probably, to me, the most compelling form of narcissism because this is where you see the sullenness, the petulance, the passive aggression, the chronic victimhood, the social anxiety, the failure to launch the. These are people who live in fantasies of the great things they're going to do, but they never do them.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Wow.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

The grandiose people actually often do get them done. They will talk the big game and they'll kind of do the big game.

[Lewis Howes]

So the vulnerable doesn't mean they're actually intimate and vulnerable with you?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

No, no, no.

[Lewis Howes]

It means that they. They themselves are vulnerable, but they don't actually take action.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Correct.

[Lewis Howes]

And they keep telling everyone, I'm going to do this project or this thing.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

And you know why I couldn't do it? Because that guy didn't give me the money and that guy was scammed me and that, you know, everyone takes advantage of me and that person stole my idea. That's. That's that.

[Lewis Howes]

The vulnerable.

[Jerry Wise]

Okay, the vulnerable.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Okay, then there's the malignant. Now to me, the malignant narcissist is the most severe form of narcissism. And that's when we talk about stuff like the dark tetrad. And the dark tetrad is composed of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, the willingness to take advantage of other people, and sadism. And I also believe paranoia sits in there too. Right. So in malignant narcissism, we're talking about people who are more coercive, who are more menacing, who are more isolating. This feels a little bit more like psychopathy, but it's still narcissism that's much more severe. Okay, then we have the communal narcissists.

[Lewis Howes]

Communal, Communal.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

And these are the folks who get. So all narcissistic folks need validation. The communal narcissistic folks are interesting because they get their validation by being perceived as saviors, rescuers, and do gooders like

[Lewis Howes]

cult leaders or more.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

That's a severe. So. So a cult leader would Be a communal, malignant narcissist. That would be. So these are like cocktails, right? These are like, you move every. You put it all together. So at the extreme, a communal malignant narcissist cult leader. But some communal narcissist could be a mother who does all the activities and the pta, helps the little league and raises the money and goes to the galas and goes home and screams at her kids and is horrible and abuses her. Her partner.

[Lewis Howes]

But on the surface, it looks like she's.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

They think she's an. A saint amongst us. It's the person who walks around and everyone thinks they're a humanitarian. And people are like, no, no, no. I worked for their nonprofit and like they. It was constantly a hellscape, right? Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

When you look behind the curtain, you see bingo.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

So it's. That's the communal narcissist. So they're. They get validation by being. By the sense of, look what a good person they are. They're rescuing puppies and they're. They're doing this thing and they're raising all this money and they're so good.

[Lewis Howes]

But behind the scenes they're not.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Not.

[Esther Perel]

So it's not.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Not saying that people do nice things are communal narcissists. It's that. That they continue to have the lack of empathy, entitlement, all that other stuff.

[Lewis Howes]

So it's like, you can, you know. Cause I'm like, okay, well, you know, I want to, I want to build a community and serve people. So how do you build a community? You've got a big audience. Like, how do we build communities without that becoming a thing? Is it just because if you're not consistent with service all around you and your relationships, then you're more.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

So I mean, are you being mean to other people? So, like, if I was public facing,

[Lewis Howes]

you look like the best thing ever, but behind the scenes.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Exactly, Exactly. So you're mean to your partner, you're mean to your family, you're mean to your people who work.

[Lewis Howes]

You're inconsistent.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

You're. Well, you're consistent. You're consistently mean to the people who are behind the curtain. You're consistently sort of putting on a show in front of the curtain.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, but you're not consistent on both ways.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

No, no, no.

[Lewis Howes]

And that's like service mindset. Okay.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

No communal. And then there's the self righteous narcissist. And the self righteous narcissist is judgmental, moralistic, rigid. They're often funky with money. They will. Like, they will. This would be A kind of person who has so much money and someone in their family has a hardship, they, they had a job loss and then their kid needs, you know, needs medical care. And they'll say, well, I didn't create this situation so I guess you'll have to figure it out.

[Lewis Howes]

They have no heart.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Like this is, it feels like no heart. But there's also this really rigid, judgmental. And they judge people from the sense of, well, look at all I built. I guess I must have worked hard. They'll never account for their luck, right? Or sometimes their absence of bad luck, that kind of thing. They will say. If they say dinner's at 6 and you show up at 6:30 because your kid got sick, they'll say, I'm sorry, we already ate. So it's very, it feels very rigid, cold, moralistic, miserly, obsessive. These are people who are often workaholics and, and with little care for how it would affect anyone. Like there's workaholics out there who check in on other people. Like, I'm going to make time for you, sure. Or once. And we're going to do, we're taking a vacation when this is done, whatever. And they're communicating and people are aware, okay, they're doing this so we could buy the house or whatever.

[Lewis Howes]

So is it possible to be self righteous and not be a narcissist?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

I don't think you can ever be self righteous and healthy because I think if you're self righteous you're like, I'm

[Lewis Howes]

better than you, right?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

So you'll even see self righteous narcissism in some of these kinds of exercise zealots who are like, I wake up at 4am and then I milk my goat and I make a smoothie and then I do crunches and run 10 million miles and then I work and then I journal and then I this and I sleep at 8 o' clock and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, is there no other human being in your life? Like, how do you deal with a crying sister? I tell her go to hell and I drink more goat milk. You know, I mean it's that, that can be some like. And the reason I'm in shape and I'm going to live to be 179 years old is because I do all this and you don't. You, you lazy, awful person. That's self righteous.

[Lewis Howes]

Lacking compassion, lacking understanding.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

It's a lack of awareness of others. So that self righteousness is sort of where the lack of empathy sits. Right. So I don't think you can be self. I don't think there's good self righteousness. I don't think all self righteous people are narcissistic. But many people said to me that self righteous narcissism is really what happened in their family of origin. It was apparent. So there would almost be this unrealistic expectation that, that the child would adhere to rigid obsessive rules like don't touch this, don't do this, don't sit there, eat like this. And so the kid never got to be a kid.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, Number six.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

And number six would be more of a neglectful narcissist. So these are the people who, they will not. They view everyone as object. So coffee cup, whatever. And they, and they just neglect them until they need them.

[Lewis Howes]

They just discard them or they just don't give them attention or energy or

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

they don't attune, they don't have to give them attention. They don't attune to them. They don't. They, when a person around them is struggling, they won't care.

[Lewis Howes]

It's, it's, it's a lack of empathy.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

It's a lack of empathy, but it's a lack of like, for example, a malignant or a grandiose narcissist might actually get mad at someone like, like, oh my gosh, like why do you keep talking to me? And people in relationships and neglectful narcissists will say, I'll take it because at least that person was listening. But people in these relationships will literally feel like they're losing their minds because the person with them is literally not noticing unless they need something from wow.

[Lewis Howes]

So they're giving the cold shoulder. They don't speak to them for days.

Whatever.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah, whatever. They just don't notice. They don't care. They won't know. Like you might say, like, I have the biggest presentation of the year next week. They won't even ask.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. It's all about them.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

It's all about them, but in this weird way. But. And they don't even take notice of other people. So it is a people I've known clients in this experience. And they'll say it's as though I didn't exist, but then when I had the piece of information or something they needed, I existed. So you feel like a really neglected personal assistant.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh my gosh.

In this next section, we are speaking with behavior expert Vanessa Van Edwards. She's going to show the physical signs, the body language that tells you exactly

who you're dealing with. Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism? And how can you spot when someone is actually warm and caring and charismatic versus someone who uses the skills or the tools of charisma in their narcissistic approach towards manipulating, controlling, and getting what they want in life?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So this is my biggest fear with this book. This is my single biggest fear, and it was an issue for me when I first started writing. It is. I'll be honest. You can use this book for manipulation.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, of course.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that scares me.

[Lewis Howes]

And when a smart person who's narcissistic is going to study everything and then

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

start using it, it scares me.

[Lewis Howes]

So how can you tell the difference? The subtle cues. These are very subtle now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Very subtle.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So we're talking about big to subtle, right? There's like a range of them. So first is, it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions. And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing, is you can if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control. And if you have bad intentions, they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues. So in the book I talk about, there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, non verbal, verbal, and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, high likeable. There's highly competent cues, verbal, nonverbal, and vocal. And then there's charismatic, the ones that are just knock it out of the park, like, they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use. They're the way that we leak guilt and shame. Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt that you've done something wrong. So in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues. So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, what are those cues?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so there's a bunch, and let's talk about as many as we can.

[Lewis Howes]

So this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot, potentially someone that seems very credible. Someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Extremely successful. They could be successful. They could seem credible, trustworthy, but might be super narcissistic underneath.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So there's a couple danger Zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit. Right? So, for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert. Lance Armstrong was doping. So if you haven't, someone was like, there was spoilers in the book. And I was like, you haven't heard

[Lewis Howes]

of that news yet.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, I also talk about Britney Spears in the book because there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She shows a lot of danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong, in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping, and he does what's called a lip purse. So lip purse is okay when we push our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture. So when we're literally trying to hold something in or hold something back or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go. And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie a lot of the time. So we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book. It's called Lie to me. So I have you lie to me, play this lie to me game. To diagnose your own tells, it's very important to know your own tells, because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. And one of the. You should know those. It's good to know those in the

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

back of your pocket.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Do that with your partner, right? You want them to know what those are too. So one thing that we noticed is on lies, that was one of the biggest indicators. So in lie to me game, we ask you to do two things. We ask you to tell us an embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story. And we want to see if we can tell the difference.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

If we.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake one?

[Lewis Howes]

Man, that'd be interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again. Right before someone's about to lie and tell their fake embarrassing story, they go, okay. And they lip purse right before they're gonna do it. And that's because we don't like lying. Our body knows it's gonna get us into trouble. So we're like, stop it, stop it, stop it. And we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman, how much do you weigh? And she'll go, mm. Like literally close those lips. Cause no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So it's a withholding gesture. And so that's the first thing is you wanna look for some of the bigger cues. Withholding gestures. Lip purse is one. A sudden distancing behavior. So we also notice that liars in our lab, they wanted to like, get away from the lie. Like as if it's smelling melt. So like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be like leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it's so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing stories are negative.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like. And they do a shame touch. The universal shame touch is when people touch their fingers to the side of their forehead.

[Lewis Howes]

This happened in a mouth.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, gosh, I'm so embarrassed.

[Lewis Howes]

So they're usually telling the truth and they do like this.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Because they're actually embarrassed. Right. So these are all good, like congruent.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative number and people shaking their head. I can't believe that happened.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like they. Oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes, we're seeing fear, we're seeing sadness. Congruent.

[Jerry Wise]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories we often see, people will lip purse and they try to get away from it. So they'll say a statement and then, you know, and then. And they're literally like as far away. I hope I'm not messing up my audio there. As far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back. They'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair. And that's because physically we want to distance ourselves from things we don't like. So we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing. And there's a lot of cues that we can't control. Right. So blink rate is another one. Eye blocking behavior is. Liars have higher blink rates.

[Lewis Howes]

They're blink more.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Actually in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I actually break this down on my YouTube channel. So you don't even have to read the book if you want to see it. Where I break the cues in this early interview, this is right before the conservatorship started. So very, very full of cues. Because it's right before it happened. And she gets asked very difficult question and she. All of a sudden, her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate, so she starts to really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening so we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, oh, I know a very narcissistic, manipulative person who has a very high blink rate.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Because they're literally, like, trying to block out the lie or the manipulation. And so they'll sound really good, but they're, like, really, like, processing a lot. And you. And you're like, why are they blinking so much? And it's because they're trying to process.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my goodness.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own, but it's just. It's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot. And I do think. I really think manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. It's hard to keep that.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them, but for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at, you know, Theranos, right? So Elizabeth Holmes. So spoiler alert. They're notes to not go. Well, I always have to say that. So one of her interesting cues is. I don't know if you've ever seen her talk. She has a really. She uses a really deep voice, like, fakely deep, like, down here. And people used to say, like, is that real? It's because she read in some cue book. It wasn't mine because my book wasn't out then, thank goodness. She read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice, and it serves you really well. When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register when I'm talking to my toddler.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Right, Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm

[Annie Sarnblad]

much more up here, you know, hey,

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

baby, how are you? But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy, right?

[Lewis Howes]

You wouldn't feel competent?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No. And it wouldn't people would go, I can't. I'm not taking her seriously. So she read that study, obviously, there you go. And went an octave lower. So it wasn't her natural voice tone. It was like one step lower than her voice tone. She was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this and you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your spidey sense would be like, why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural. And it came out that when she was drunk, her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Wow.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So there are cues that they will

[Lewis Howes]

eventually be, don't drink alcohol.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol or you're gonna get caught. So, like, you can't keep it up for that long. It is that she was faking that cue, we think.

[Lewis Howes]

I think you're also just. Your body is out of integrity. Like, the more you're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I mean, I felt this from the past because I've been out of integrity in my life at different times, from different stages of childhood to adulthood. Right. For little white lies to bigger stuff, hiding from my parents or whatever it is.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They feel bad.

[Lewis Howes]

So you're like. Like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you gotta like, keep the lie up and you're like, eventually you're gon explode. Are you going to have a heart attack or something?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, it's going to leak.

[Jerry Wise]

It's going to leak.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like cues. You leak those cues and like, those are the cues that we're looking for. Like, I want you to be on the lookout for them. Because when something feels bad, like even. Like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone changed.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Just then. Because when you think about. Oh, I'm like, think about seeing a toxic person. And I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives. And this is why toxic people are so challenging. Because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it now we can do it.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you mean?

We gotta be nice to them or something.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So, like, if you have a toxic person, and this is the thorn, and I think our work is, I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest, most competent self. But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic people. You have a colleague or co worker or family member that you don't like. Right. And you have to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, hi, how are you? Right. And so what do we do? We fake smile.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So, oh, it's so good to see

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

you

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

look like it.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Or we say, oh, yeah, somehow. Oh, that sounds good. Congratulations.

[Lewis Howes]

Right now your LA roots are coming back to you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And. Right. That's why toxic people challenge us, is because they come into our lives, we know we're supposed to be warm, and so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced, and then it makes us feel bad, and then we're trying to overcompensate for it. And so you know what? The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like the side effect of the book is like, don't keep them around. Don't keep those people around, because it will leak. And so set boundaries.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you mean it will leak? Like your integrity will leak because you're constantly trying to be nice, but that you're actually out of integrity because you don't want to be.

[Jerry Wise]

Right. Is that right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right? That's exactly right.

[Lewis Howes]

So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me because I feel like I have to with this person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's right.

[Lewis Howes]

And the more frequently you do that, you feel, I have integrity with yourself.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yep, exactly. So with yourself. With yourself. With yourself. That was a question you were asked.

[Lewis Howes]

That was a question.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, it was. Yes. Yes. That was perfect. Because you were asking a question I knew. Yes. Is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries, we have to have some of those people we deal with. But if you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness, and that feels really bad.

[Lewis Howes]

What happens if. Let's just say there's a person you don't like. Maybe they're not toxic. There's someone you don't like and you don't like being nice to because you feel like, why am I spending.

I just don't.

Nothing wrong with them. They're just not my person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, totally.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's say they're in a work environment.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And you're at a company, got 50, 100 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm here.

[Jerry Wise]

Here.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person. Friendly, fake. How are you interested? Even though you've, like, been around them for six months or a year and you realize you really don't like them? Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months, say, you know what? I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you because I feel like I've been fake, that I don't connect with you, I don't like you. I think you're out of integrity. I think you're inauthentic, and maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd rather be honest with you and fake nice to you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C?

[Lewis Howes]

Sure.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I don't believe in fake it till you make it. So I, I, I try not to give, like, fake it. I don't, I don't roll that way. Like, I just think it's exhausting. I think it's gonna leak. The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them. Right? You have to master your tasks. You have to be on it. You have to be responsive to emails. So that is something that you can be authentic about. Because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting. So I would skip all the fake warmth stuff.

[Lewis Howes]

Don't go right into competence.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, right. Like, stick with where you're authentic, which is like, I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. I don't need to fake sitting with you for coffee. But you know what? We can get stuff done. You know what?

[Lewis Howes]

We align on goals, boundaries around the. Hey, let's go have coffee.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm so busy. I'm so busy today. But you know what? Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick off.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So get back to, like, the mission, the task on hand, the competence, and maybe you've just got to be like, okay, this is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a day. I've got to be around someone that's trying to be fake lady daddy with everyone, and I'll just wait.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm going to get stuff done, and

[Lewis Howes]

then I'll move on to the next.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. Exactly. Because at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic. And also, that's. Even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be. Listen, like, you know, I'm. I'm not really into, like, you know, connecting at work. I'm more about getting it done. I want to get home to my kids and my family. I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us, like, you know, work it out and be really efficient. I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me get home with my kids faster. Right. Like, that's authentic. So what can you appreciate about them that's competent?

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What can you highlight about them that's competent? That's.

[Lewis Howes]

What if you don't feel like they're warm or competent? You're like, this person on a team is just that they can't get anything done. They're not smart, and they have fake attitude around me all day.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I mean, this depends on how you feel. But I would say deal with it. Like, you got like, go to your boss, right?

[Lewis Howes]

And say, hey, I just looked at a different team.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You say, like, I don't know how I can work with this person. I don't want to be unauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done and they are causing issues on the team. Like, I don't like to ignore that stuff. Like, you can hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent and doesn't treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, set a boundary, or get help, Give them money. Don't live with it.

[Lewis Howes]

Or something.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, yeah, don't live with it. Life is too short to feel fakely competent or fake warmth.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. What's been the. I think I asked you this last time, what's been the charisma? Strategy.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You want to call it strategy?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You weren't sure about that. You weren't sure.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't know what the word is.

Right.

But what is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last six months that has brought some new attention to your life where you said, ah, I wasn't aware of that fully, but now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves this.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

There's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft because I just learned it. And this is Actually brought to me by one of my male readers. And I'm so curious. Okay, do you agree with this, Lewis? Okay, here's what they said. So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding. So nodding affirmative. Nods upside down.

[Lewis Howes]

Right? I nod.

[Jerry Wise]

All done.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, you're a nodder. It's really high.

[Lewis Howes]

Warmth.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We love it, we love it.

[Lewis Howes]

It was good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Nodding is great because vertical nods. And by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they'll nod, they nod sideways, side to sideways. That's different. Okay, so just vertical nodding in western cultures is agreement. It's yes. In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer.

[Lewis Howes]

That's cool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's why you're a good interviewer is because you'll not be like, keep going, keep going, keep going.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm just like a bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, yeah, very slow. I'll pause and be like, okay, cool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. Well, actually, you're right. Slow nodding is. Tell me more. Fast nodding is. Finish up.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, okay, okay, okay.

[Jerry Wise]

Got it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I got it.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Right, right, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a 1, 2, 3, triple nod. Like, I got it. If you want them to keep going. An introvert. Uh huh.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Uh huh.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so that's the difference. That's number one. So I shared about this, I taught it, and then a couple of my male readers said to me, you know, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret non verbal cue between guys. Now, I don't know what this cue is. Here's what they said. If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him guy to guy, you're not up. Good to see you. It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know a guy, but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, you. Hey, good to see you.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, wow, that's so true.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Is it true?

[Lewis Howes]

That's so true. Yeah, exactly. Oh, good to see you.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Acknowledged.

[Lewis Howes]

Good to see you. Hey, what's up, buddy?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. It's so true.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so this is. So I snuck it into the book last minute.

[Lewis Howes]

Fascinating. I wonder, is that like biology? Is that.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Here's what I think.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like. And I started looking, I started watching men. I asked my husband, I asked my guy friends. And this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So this is a very vulnerable part of our body and we're saying, I know you, I trust you. Look, I'm opening, I'm acknowledging you, and I feel trustworthy. When you don't know someone but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular. I don't know you, but I see you. I got you.

[Jerry Wise]

I got you.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm here for you. Kind of, yeah, but I can't see my jugular.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But I'm here for you. I'm going to protect myself, but I see you.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm here for you, bro.

[Annie Sarnblad]

What's up?

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly. I think that that's where it comes from is it's like a do I know you or do I not know you? So in that sense, this is a high warmth cue. Hey buddy, what's up?

[Jerry Wise]

Right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's high warmth. You're showing your jugular. This is a high confidence cue. Hello. Good to see you. I look ridiculous.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

I don't do that.

[Lewis Howes]

Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. If you're running a business, you know how quickly things can get complicated when you're managing payments, staff, inventory and online orders. Square brings everything together in one place, including payments, point of sale, inventory, staffing, and online sales so business owners don't have to juggle multiple systems. Whether you're just getting started or growing from one location to many, Square is built to grow with you. Their tools are designed to be easy to use and their AI powered features help automate routine tasks, giving you more time to focus on customers and decisions. Square helps you run your business more smoothly, bringing payments, operations and insights together in one place so you're ready for whatever's next. Right now, listeners can get up to $200 off square hardware when you sign up at square.com go greatness that's sq u a r e.com/go/greatness. Get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do. Turn your tax refund into more funds with savings options from U.S. bank. Get competitive rates, access to your cash and tools that help you set with a savings account. Lock in a great rate with a CD to give your money a boost. See [e-mail] Savings Savings rates vary based on the presence of an additional eligible product and combined qualifying balances. CD rates vary by term and location. Member FDIC the best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. That's why LinkedIn has the highest B2B ROAs of all online ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com Lewis that's LinkedIn.com L E W I S Terms and conditions apply. In this third section, we have the legendary psychotherapist Esther Perel, who is going to share patterns that prove your partner might be a narcissist.

What's your thoughts on narcissism in general and can people change or evolve out of it?

[Esther Perel]

I can answer it clinically and culturally. I mean, maybe we should start by talking about the. Like Christopher Lasch talked about it, we do live in a narcissistic culture, selfie culture, the likes. In a culture of narcissism, once you are continuously evaluating yourself, proving yourself, performing, demonstrating yourself, you know, posting about yourself, engaging in fake news about yourself, you are in a narcissistic culture that, you know, criteria diagnosis accompany the culture of the day. In the 19th century, we talked about hysteria. We do not talk much about hysteria today because we realized that the majority of these hysteric women, supposedly hysteric women, were actually women who had experienced sexual abuse. They were not hysterical, they were traumatized. Yes, narcissism is the word that we come back with on the 21st century. Stress and anxiety and depression was the 20th century. So every century and every culture has its expressions through mental illness or mental manifestations. Okay? Eating disorders exist in some cultures and not in others. A diagnosis, a personality disorder, doesn't just exist like that without a background. So that means that it's easy to make these issues very personal, but they are also societal. That said, I have sat with people who have a whole range of narcissistic tendencies to get to saying somebody is a narcissist, somebody is depressed, somebody's. You know, I think that there are. There's more to us than just that, right? But you see a lot of people with narcissistic tendencies, and you see a lot of people who are not just exhibiting it with manifest narcissism, but there's a whole other form of narcissism that is called covert narcissism, which we talk about much less because we don't name it in those ways.

[Lewis Howes]

What is the difference?

[Esther Perel]

That is a long conversation.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

That is really a long conversation in the short form.

[Esther Perel]

What Is the, you know, power can come from above and power can come from underneath. You can have power through victimization. You can make people feel guilty all the time. You can be passive aggressive. You can make people continuously feel that they are responsible for your life. That if they don't do what you want that you may kill yourself. There's loads of ways to make other people submit themselves to you.

[Lewis Howes]

And that would be considered, that is,

[Esther Perel]

those are expressions of more covert.

[Lewis Howes]

Covert.

It's not like this domineering.

[Esther Perel]

You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You know, I think that there is a certain profile at this point of when we say narcissist, everybody has five or six associations that are quite similar. And this is really a whole other conversation. But what I will say is that, yes, I have sat with people who have very little regard. People who bring everything onto themselves. People who see everything as a reflection of themselves. People who are charming. Charming when they need to seduce you. And then once they think they have you, they turn and they go into the next people who they need to charm. But those that they have already recruited are disregarded and discarded.

[Lewis Howes]

So those got the most out of them already. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, people who can lie pathologically to you. People who have very little empathy for what is happening. So there is a cluster of things. But I think for me, I tend to look at behaviors and I tend to look at interactions because I'm a relational therapist and I'm a systems oriented therapist and so I less spend my time labeling a personality. I think it's useful on occasion, but it is not my primary vocabulary. But she's very, very eloquent about it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

Yes. We'll have to have you back on to do a whole two hour conversation on that another time. It's a lot to that.

[Esther Perel]

It's really. I do not want to talk about complex topics in a short amount of time because it doesn't do them justice. And I don't like to reinforce notions that have not been examined.

[Lewis Howes]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

But that are easy to grab on.

[Lewis Howes]

We'll have you back on for that. I'll do one final card and then I think I've got to make sure I'm respecting him.

[Esther Perel]

The time that you're going to touch on me. Yep.

[Annie Sarnblad]

What is that?

[Lewis Howes]

Okay. I'm my own worst enemy when it's interesting. I, you know what? Want to give me a different one?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

I want to give you this.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Because. Because of what happened just a few

[Lewis Howes]

minutes before last time. I cried, was. I mean, yesterday, you know, in terms of my father just died two months ago. And so I've been crying a lot. You know, every couple of days I hear a song that really connects me to a memory, to him and to the whole. It was a sad experience because he got into a car accident 17 years ago, had a severe brain trauma, was in a coma for three months, then he woke up. He went in a different country in New Zealand. At the time I was in college. Then he came back and it was like my dad was physically here, but emotionally, mentally and spiritually not.

[Esther Perel]

Ambiguous loss. Yes, this is it.

[Lewis Howes]

I never was able to fully grieve.

[Esther Perel]

That's ambiguous loss.

[Lewis Howes]

My father, he was physically here, but

[Esther Perel]

the other, the same person.

[Lewis Howes]

And every interaction I had with him was reminding me of the loss was, I'm grateful he's here and it's great to experience some time with him. But every time I go and say hello, he says, louis, right? Didn't you, didn't you used to play? What sport did you play growing up? Where did you go to school again? So he could have a conversation with you and speak conversationally. But it was the same story over and over again. I'm needing to remind my father for 17 years, for 17 years of the memory loss that he had. Show him photos of him with me, taking photos of me playing sports. The second half of my life with him was beautiful. He showed up, he transformed. He overcame a lot of the anger and resentment he had. And I had two different lives with him when I was 13, before, I had some love, some scary with him. Then after 13, it was like this incredible friendship. So it's like I lost my dad, but he was physically here. And every year there was some type of health scare. He had a couple strokes, a heart attack. He had multiple surgeries from the accident, just the complications from the accident. And so every year I didn't know if he was going to survive or not. And it was always, is it going to happen this year? Okay, he's in the hospital now. Is he going to make it? Do I need to be there? In this 17 year cycle of learning to accept something and doing my best to be okay with it and accepting and loving where it's at, you know. So for me it was 17 years of, I wouldn't say numbing, but it was acceptance and just like managing it the best I could. And then when he passed in February a couple months ago, it was, man, just full circle. Kind of like going back 17 years ago and reliving that and then reliving my whole childhood and allowing myself to be. To have a full range of emotions. And I think it's beautiful because.

[Esther Perel]

Do you feel like this time actually you can fully grieve?

[Lewis Howes]

I feel like I can because it's.

[Esther Perel]

This is ambiguous loss, what you just described. Can't grieve, can't mourn. Because he's there, but he's not there.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And this one gives it. Now you can experience the full range.

[Lewis Howes]

Absolutely. I didn't feel like I could. And I feel like I have a more spiritual connection to him now than in the last 17 years. You know, every night I'm connecting with him in my own way in my little meditation room. And, you know, throughout the days, there are things that come up where I feel the spiritual presence. And it's a beautiful, sad. It's beautiful, it's emotional. It's a wide range of emotions. You know, there's a lot of sadness I have because I wish it wasn't that way, but I also. I have some relief. And I'm also doing. Doing my best to create meaning from the whole thing so that it's not just this thing I'm frustrated with constantly. But like, you know what? I probably wouldn't be doing this without that pain and sadness and loss. I want to be a curious, hungry. I wouldn't have been as resourceful if I had him there.

[Jerry Wise]

So.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, I mean, I've been crying a lot. I've been crying a lot. And it's been beautiful to have a safe environment in my relationship with someone who allows that, because I think that's hard for some people to allow that, especially for men to be able to express their full range of emotions and for that, their partner, to feel safe with that too. So I feel very grateful.

[Esther Perel]

But it's absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

It's not.

[Jerry Wise]

It's not.

[Lewis Howes]

Hasn't been fun, but it's also been allowing me to have, like, peace.

[Esther Perel]

Amazing thing that if you ask people, when's the last time you laughed? Nobody has to justify laughing but crying. But crying people have to justify it. They have to.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting you asked that.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, it is the absolute natural emotion to feel in sadness, in grief, in loss, man, woman, they, them, whoever.

[Lewis Howes]

I had a woman on 2 days ago who hasn't cried in years, and I had a man on yesterday who hasn't cried in, I think, 10 or 12 years. And it's interesting. It's like there's something there, I think, to be able to have the full range. Not saying you need to cry all day long or something, but allowing ourselves to feel. But that's probably for a whole other conversation.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, I would say that it's hard for people to really fully say yes if you can't fully say no. And it is hard for people to fully laugh if you can't also cry. If something is funny, you automatically do this. If something is sad, the fact that you stay like that, or that you repress it, or that you hold it in, or that you don't even notice it, or that the thing is coming down your face and you don't even realize. I've had people tear in my office while they say I never cry.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that mean when someone isn't able to fully laugh or fully cry?

[Esther Perel]

What would it be like if a person comes into this world and doesn't scream? I mean, if a baby doesn't scream when they come out, you think they're dead at birth. What is it like when people make love and make no noise when it's impossible? I mean, you're a sports person. You know that if you lift something,

[Lewis Howes]

you make noise, you grunt.

[Esther Perel]

Here, you know, the voice is. It's just, what does it mean when this whole thing is closed off?

[Lewis Howes]

There's something inside that's missing or dead

[Esther Perel]

or trapped or trapped or was shoved down or can't come out. But for sure it is a blockage.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Jerry Wise]

People will always ask me, am I a narcissist? And I'll go, do you ever feel guilty? Oh, yeah, all the time. Then you're not.

[Lewis Howes]

You're just dysfunctional.

[Jerry Wise]

You're just dysfunctional. No. Right. A narcissist is not going to feel that guilt. They don't feel, what have they done wrong? They're always right. So that, why would I feel guilt about anything or shame? So if you felt that, you're probably less likely to be a narcissist. But a parent can be a narcissistic parent and they don't. They can abuse you, they can criticize you, but they'll never go, oh, that my bad.

[Lewis Howes]

They want to apologize.

[Jerry Wise]

Why would they apologize? You made them do it. You made them do it. Or they did it for your good. So why would I ever need to say I'm sorry? There's no need to say I'm sorry.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the worst thing a parent could do then to their kids over and over again that will almost surely make them dysfunctional as an adult? Is it never apologizing to them when you know they.

[Jerry Wise]

That that's too symptomatic, that's too superficial. The thing that's going to make them more dysfunctional as an adult is to not break their own cycle from their own past, bringing that cycle to their current nuclear family and not knowing it.

[Lewis Howes]

So bringing the generational trauma onward and

[Jerry Wise]

the generational programming and the generational emotional wi fi that's been going on and they just bring that right into here. That's going to mess them up more than ever now. Does abuse and narcissistic meanness, do all those things affect the kid? Of course it does.

[Lewis Howes]

Screaming and all this stuff.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah, exactly. Of course it's going to. But it's not the screaming that's the underlying problem.

[Lewis Howes]

That's a symptom of something.

[Jerry Wise]

That's a symptom of how the family has been dysfunctional and toxic. And it can come out in different ways. Narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, workaholism, sex addiction. It can come out in gambling and all kinds of symptomatic ways. But underneath all of that is an enmeshment to a family whose trance has never been broken.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. The origin family.

[Jerry Wise]

The origin family. It's never been broken and now you're just living it out. Only John's living it out that way, Mary's living it out that way. But that's the underlying important dynamic.

[Lewis Howes]

And if we don't break the trance of the family, the origin family of ours, if we don't break that trance, the then we're just going to relive that pattern in our adult relationships as

[Jerry Wise]

well in some way. And it may not even look like the way mom and dad did it, but the pattern's still there. So people will go, well, I'm not like my parents. Oh, well, hold on just a second, let me ask you. But what you're doing is the same theme and it has origins in your family of origin. You may have chosen the opposite, but up 180 degrees from unhealthy is unhealthy. So people will go, oh, well I'm all the way over here. Oh, now you're just a class B unhealthy rather than a class A unhealthy person. And you feel superior over them because you're over here, right? You haven't broken the cycle. You're living the pendulum life.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, I'm not screaming at my partner,

[Jerry Wise]

I'm not screaming at my partner like they did. But I'm controlling, but I'm being controlling and I still may be self absorbed or judgmental or any number of other kinds of things.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting. Here's the real question then. If we start to think about, oh, maybe my parents had some narcissistic tendencies and I'm starting to think about it and I'm starting to evaluate my childhood and realize, oh, I thought this was just normal because this is the only thing I knew.

[Jerry Wise]

How many families did we grow up in. Yeah, right.

[Lewis Howes]

And it wasn't as bad as that family. So I got to be grateful for this.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah, and we should.

[Lewis Howes]

And my parents were loving at times and they gave us. And they were doing the best they could so that I can't think of them as narcissistic. But we start to internalize that.

What are the warning signs then that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

[Jerry Wise]

Let's then take a look at that. Mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, hypercritical and judgmental. Now, I then grow up and say, I'm not going to be like that. But what am I to myself? Hypercritical and judgmental. So an adult child of a narcissistic family often will have unbounded guilt, shame, criticalness, hyper criticalness, very hard on themselves. So they just take the voice from here and just live it inside themselves.

[Lewis Howes]

Really.

[Jerry Wise]

Everything is that way. People go, oh, well, they. They screamed all the time. So many times I've said, so how many times have you internally screamed at yourself? I don't scream at other people. I didn't say other people. I said you. Oh, well, yeah, I can be pretty nasty to me, you know, you stupid. And I said, you're just reliving this only in a different way. And so it's all embryonic in the family. So everything that's happening out here, the problem. And that's what I think. That's why I use the term the problem is the solution is not near the problem. Also, the problem may not be near the symptom. Here I am criticizing myself and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And narcissists, adult children, narcissists, can definitely hate themselves because they've been judged and criticized and, you know, emotionally hurt so many different ways, shamed. And so this is what they're doing out here, and they're now doing this as adults to themselves internally and going, well, what's the solution? And many will go, don't look at any of that. Let's just try to be nicer to yourself. Which is not bad advice, but it's superficial advice and it may not hold. And then you'll try it and then give it up, and you'll try it and give it up versus, wait a minute, let's get mom and dad out of you. Wow, that's what we want to do. And do you recognize that's not you when you are criticizing yourself that way? You're going to be under the hypnosis and the trance that this is me doing it to me. And I go, let me give you some good news. It's not you doing it to you. It's your family still doing it to you through you. There's a difference and that's a huge difference.

[Lewis Howes]

And so as adult children,

what should

we be thinking about if we felt like we had a dysfunctional childhood? So we'd be thinking about how do I get my myself to be self differentiated from my parents and my family?

How do I block my family completely?

How do I heal the past? Like, what should we be thinking about as we come into awareness as adult children of dysfunctional childhoods or narcissistic parents?

[Jerry Wise]

And I think it's a great question, but your question also has within it a certain paradigm, as all questions do. Every question has the answer in it. Every question that someone asks, the answer is in their question. And so you were asking about, so do I separate myself from my family? Do I, you know, and, and certainly if someone, if families are abusive and toxic and have no interest in changing. No. Well, then we have to look at some no contact or, you know, we may need to go that far. But self differentiation, what I tend to think when someone has a family that's narcissistic, does the person that I'm working with or talking to or the adult child of the narcissist need greater self differentiation, which is an emotional state and a maturity state, or do they need to physically separate?

[Lewis Howes]

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How can you know if someone has narcissistic tendencies if you're going on a date or if you've been in a relationship with them for a long time?

[Annie Sarnblad]

Because they don't show me any kindness.

[Lewis Howes]

They don't show kindness.

[Annie Sarnblad]

They don't care when I get hurt, regardless of how I get hurt or regardless of how somebody else gets hurt. They don't show that really. They don't know.

[Lewis Howes]

They care more about themselves or they just. They just don't.

[Annie Sarnblad]

But I know narcissists that will describe something that they've been through that's painful and their chin will be working overtime.

[Lewis Howes]

But for, for someone else, they probably won't have that.

[Annie Sarnblad]

No, because they don't care.

[Lewis Howes]

But how are they so good, I guess, at captivating you to love them?

[Annie Sarnblad]

One, they, they tend to over the well, the narcissists in my life tend to overdo the eye contact.

[Lewis Howes]

So they're very present and connected.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Yes, the gaze is long. And then the other thing is that they've learned almost mathematically which phrases, which behaviors work. So I had somebody in my life. I won't mention who it is, but it's a family member of mine that I just lost it on him. We were living in Hong Kong and he was yelling at a taxi driver and we got out of the car and the taxi driver had made a wrong turn, even though the person that I was with had said turn to the right, the up and said you made a mistake. And he just lost it on this taxi driver. And I was really angry afterwards. I said do you understand that? This is somebody who's trying to support his family, working really long hours. This is a decent human making an honorable living, working hard, and probably has a lot of people depending on them. And you don't get to yell at somebody for making a mistake. We all make mistakes. Next night we were out and this person was trying to pick up girls, poked out his chest and said, I'm the kind of guy who's nice to taxi drivers.

[Lewis Howes]

No. I was like, wow. The next day, jeez.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I was like, this is the weirdest, surreal experience.

[Annie Sarnblad]

But it was. It really clicked for me, this narcissistic behavior. And I knew that this was a narcissist. This idea of, oh, there's a puzzle piece and a tool that I can use to impress other people. And it was just so artificial and strange. But people find a way to get their needs met. We humans tend to be really good at that. And if something works for us, well, we repeat that. We do more of that.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, we kind of store that in our brain. This worked before. So let me keep doing this thing,

[Annie Sarnblad]

that whole love bombing and the whole, like, I will tell you. And the narcissists that have ever tried to date me, I call them parrots. They try to figure out what is your thing. So I had a guy not that long ago, I've actually written about that, that was telling me, you know, I've been obsessed with micro expressions for years, because if you can't really connect with people, I mean, he'd seen me speak a couple of times and he was just pulling all this stuff. And I was lonely and newly divorced and I almost fell for it, you know, even with my stuff. Because he was so good at the

[Lewis Howes]

speaking to your heart into, like, your things.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Well, and he wasn't doing it face to face. He was doing it via text. And I kept saying, well, let's just jump on a phone call. No, no, no. Didn't want to even jump on the phone call because he knows that I

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

can do voices stuff.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

No.

FaceTime. Yeah, FaceTime.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Didn't want to do the FaceTime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So it. Can you personally tell the difference between someone who is maybe a psychopath, a narcissist and a genius? Can you tell the difference based on and. And other tendencies of all three?

[Annie Sarnblad]

I guess that's a really good question. You can be a genius and also be kind, right? That doesn't necessarily. You can be a narcissist and a genius for sure, but the genius isn't necessarily Overlapping the other ones, there are a couple pieces that I look for. I look for what my kids call crazy eyes. So. Remember I talked about we pull our upper eyelids way back? You know, we do this, right? So that's a piece of fear. So if you. If I walk into a room and I see somebody, you know, maybe standing with a gun behind you or like, pulling out a. In my upper eyelids are gonna. Gonna pull way back. That fits, right? If I'm in a scary situation, something scares me, or somebody jumps out, or there's a loud noise, I'm gonna pull my upper eyelids back and. And that.

[Lewis Howes]

Like crazy.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Yeah. Okay. But that matches. But we don't ever in fear. The only time we will pull up our eyelids back and hold them. Roller coaster, haunted house. You know, a terror.

[Lewis Howes]

Loud noise, right?

[Annie Sarnblad]

Yeah. We never hold our upper eyelids pulled way back. Except when we're nuts.

[Lewis Howes]

When you're a social psychopath, you just

like, all the time Hitler. Really?

[Annie Sarnblad]

I'm gonna get in so much trouble for this. Elizabeth Holmes.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, wow.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah.

[Annie Sarnblad]

See, your face immediately goes like. There's a lot of people in the public eye, the school shooters, if you. If you look at the pictures of

[Lewis Howes]

them, they have their eyes like that a lot.

[Annie Sarnblad]

They always, like, pull. They're showing their sclera. And there's something about mental instability and volatility, and I'm not safe that. And I don't know what it is. And I've done a lot of research, just my own private research on that, but. But I almost always find that somebody who's committed a heinous crime and a really violent crime, they're all almost always like, I don't know, 20, 30% of their pictures that you can find up on the blind where they're. Where they're holding.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Okay, so watch the facial expression of fear. The full facial expression of fear. And it, like, makes me shiver. Right. Watch when I take the bottom half of my face and turn it into joy or arousal or cheerfulness.

[Lewis Howes]

That is weird.

[Annie Sarnblad]

It's super creepy. And it, like, sends all these itchy signals to my brain, but it's out of context. It doesn't match. And your whole body, your whole nervous system knows that when you see it. When I give you the vocabulary to pull this and dissect it, you're going, oh, my God, I just talked about this thing. And that person showed crazy eyes. Like, almost like they were. There's horror and arousal at the same. There should not. That's the joker's face from Batman. The arousal in the horror, the joy in the horror. That's terrible.

[Lewis Howes]

The joy in the horror.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

That's something to watch out for.

[Annie Sarnblad]

That is something to watch out for.

[Lewis Howes]

Now, are people, you know, I guess, are psychopaths. Are they more like that all the time or is that only sometimes?

[Annie Sarnblad]

They seem to show it a lot.

[Lewis Howes]

Right, right.

[Annie Sarnblad]

And I don't really. It's almost like I'm not all the way to the finish line with that research.

[Lewis Howes]

I just know something seems inauthentic, though.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Something's inauthentic. And you can have somebody who is not a bad person, but who is going through a period of severe trauma and mental instability, also have that sort of constant deer in the headlight looks. So you have to be careful. All of these facial expressions, you have to put them in context.

[Lewis Howes]

You need context.

[Annie Sarnblad]

And it's not like you see this in somebody. They're automatically a bad or a dangerous person, but they are more likely, in my experience, to be violent against others or themselves. You sometimes see that facial expression before somebody takes their own. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Wow.

[Annie Sarnblad]

So there's something. There's some, you know, serious emotional health

[Lewis Howes]

issue with a psychopath, essentially.

Yeah.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Yeah. And.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And finally, my friend, Dr. John DeLoney, this is a big one. He's going to help you look in the mirror. He'll show you how to make sure you don't fall into your own narcissistic tendencies that all of us might have

from time to time. There seems to be a trend of narcissism, self interest. And my feelings and my beliefs are the things that matter most. So you need to change this system. Need to change. Everything needs to change to fit my feelings and protect my feelings. Why do you think that is happening? More so we don't have.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We've clipped the strings. Esther talks eloquently about this. We've clipped all of the strings, the common strings that bind us together with a common story for just for however long you think the Earl. How however long you think the earth has been around. Our relationship to our gods told us what we're going to wear, what your role is, what whose job is what job, what, what our values are, what you do and don't do. There's been tons of oppression. I'm not saying it's all great. I'm just saying that's the way it worked. And then we cut all the strings. None of that's real, guys. If it can't be randomized, control, double blind, studied, it's not real. It doesn't exist. And so as beings created to worship, whether you're an atheist or not, as beings created to be in service of something, if there's nothing to be in service of other than the self, then you are the supreme ruler of your world.

[Lewis Howes]

You're in the universe.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're a pharaoh. You will bow before me. And we have a whole generation of people saying, no, you bow before me. No, no, no, you bow before me. Then you get chaos, which is what we have. Instead of saying, what if we all just went to the moon? Can we figure that out? Let's do that. Let's go to the moon. And what if we said, how can I love you today? Instead of, this is just how I'm wired. I give answers. One of those ways you're going to end up sleeping outside by yourself. One of those ways creates warmth in your home. Right. And so what do you want? Like, what do you want this thing to feel like? What are you doing?

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I often ask this question, does that feel good? Like. Like great quippy response. Like, great grenade sarcasm, you know, cynicism. Good job. That feel good? Yeah. Did it? Is that what you're going for today? Do you feel powerful for a minute? Like, what. What are you. What are we doing? Or do you want to be connected and you want to be whole?

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You get to pick.

[Lewis Howes]

Man, connection, wholeness, peace, I believe comes from service. And I believe first comes from service to self in creating wholeness, not neglecting self and being empty all the time and just only serving others and deflecting all of your needs to feeling peaceful and whole and healthy. But then in that journey, giving to others, helping others, being of service, contributing to something greater than self. A mission, a vision, a family, a community, a goal.

You know, going to the moon, whatever

it is, believing in something and others and giving to them. Yeah. And it's something for me that is really flipped in the last 10 years. Ten years ago, prior to 10 years ago, I was more about, how do I look good, how do I win, how do I succeed, how do I,

you know, be right?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

As much as possible. And it was very unconscious. It wasn't like I was conscious of it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It was just your body playing defense.

[Lewis Howes]

And it was survival.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right.

[Lewis Howes]

Mechanism.

[Jerry Wise]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

It was like, I need to win.

I need to be right.

I need to make more.

I need to look good.

I need to have this image and ego, you know, shape the way I want it. And I just realized that wasn't a happy life for me. Maybe, maybe some Moments that seemed happy, but it wasn't really fulfilling until I said, it's got to be collaboration over competition. You know, I can still compete in certain ways, but it can't be for someone to be less than.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

It needs to be for me to compete.

To get better.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And serve better.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But collaboration over competition, service over self,

that is what's brought me a lot more fulfillment. It doesn't mean it's always easy. There's challenges. But it's brought me much more meaning and fulfillment. What do you think is the biggest cause of pain in relationships today?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Me over us. Really? Yeah. Me over us. How I feel right now or how you made me feel? Not my body responded when you did this. I need to deal with that or I've got some hard choices to make. You did it. You did it. It's me over us, I think. And this would go back to the question you asked earlier. It was a watershed moment. When I heard Esther Perel talk about the 911 towers analogy. She was talking to a couple who had experienced infidelity, and she said one of the greatest challenges couples experience is they want to. I just want to get back to the way things were. And she likened it to, you couldn't go on September 12th and sweep up all that dust and glass and steel and rebuild those towers with that stuff. They fell.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You have two choices. You can walk away and let nature take it back over and it will. Or you can hire some experts. You can excavate that. You can design, build, grieve, come together and build something beautiful. A nod to the past, but something going this way that's hopefully stronger. Right. Those are your two choices, but what you had is over. And so I've taken that into my own home. My wife and I right now, we've never been parents of an eighth grader and a second grader. This is a new marriage, and so we're gonna build something new. It'll have a lot of the features of the old one, but this is new because eighth graders stay out later than second graders. We're used to going to bed at 9 o'.

[Lewis Howes]

Clock.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I ain't doing that anymore because I got to pick him up.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So we have a new marriage. And if you keep saying, I just want to get back to the way I was, I just want to get back, you end up dragging each other back. And so if we put. We said I do, then us becomes number one.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's a. That's not a popular thing, but I know I got to exercise, I got to eat right. I got to get some sleep so that I can show up for us.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it sounds self serving, but it's not. I got to do these things. I can be whole so I could show up for what we're building new

[Lewis Howes]

on your, on your show, the Dr. John DeLoney Show. You have a lot of call in

aspects as well where people are calling

you, you're coaching, they're telling you their challenges. You've been doing this for the last few years now. What is the, the big reasons for struggle in relationships or causes of divorce that you're seeing lately? I know kind of historically what that is. Is it more financial burden? Is it more? Is there infidelity or people wanting more to like sneak around? Is it a lack of intimacy? Is it family dynamics of the other families? What is the main cause of friction in relationships or marriages today?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I think if I'm looking at symptoms, it's going to be money and infidelity.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Some scale of infidelity? Yeah. Some version of.

[Lewis Howes]

And people are calling in and telling you about this?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

They're telling wild stuff.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Underneath it I think it's a broader picture. Terry Real talks about this beautifully. The world changed and men just want things to go back to the way they were and women want men to do new things without a new set of tools.

[Lewis Howes]

I hope this masterclass didn't just give you information. I hope it gave you a sense of clarity and a sense of peace. Because understanding these narcissistic patterns is a huge first step. But the real goal, it's not just about identifying the toxic people. It's about reclaiming your own power, your own self trust, your own worth. Healing from the past is the only way to rebuild a great future. Because you can't run a world class race if you're still carrying the weight of someone else's expectations. You can't experience true intimacy if you're still living in a state of hyper vigilance. And you deserve a life where you feel safe and in your own skin, in your own heart and body. You deserve the relationships that fuel you, not drain you. Your healing is the greatest gift that you can give yourself and to the world. Your past only has as much power as you give it. So today we are here to take that power back. Today you choose a higher standard for your life. And if this was something that supported you today. Please comment below what your biggest moment was from all of these great experts. Share it in the comment below and let me know. Go ahead and like this video share with a friend and I'd love to know what is the one boundary that you're going to set starting right now in your life to ensure this doesn't happen in the future. I read a lot of these comments and they inspire me. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for constantly choosing your own personal growth. And as always I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out

there and do something great.

[Annie Sarnblad]

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm Gabe Wiedman.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's called I need you guys.

[Lewis Howes]

Should I give my baby fresh vegetables?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Can I drink the water at the hospital? My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop. You should make sure that you subscribe

[Annie Sarnblad]

so that you never miss an episode.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I need to go.

[Annie Sarnblad]

A cancer diagnosis changes everything. If you or a loved one drank alcohol and was later diagnosed with cancer, you may be eligible for compensation. Go to cancerclaim again, that's cancerclaims.info attorney advertising.