Rick Rubin: The Spiritual Secret to Limitless Creativity

Summary

Podcast Summary: The School of Greatness

Episode: Rick Rubin — The Spiritual Secret to Limitless Creativity

Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Rick Rubin
Date: November 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful conversation, nine-time Grammy-winning producer and creativity sage Rick Rubin joins Lewis Howes to explore the spiritual and practical underpinnings of true artistic greatness. Rubin, known for his transformative impact on artists from Johnny Cash to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, discusses how creativity is a devotional act, why the opinions of others must not influence artistic expression, the difference between art and commerce, and how continued self-discovery and feeling—not thinking—fuels his process. Through vulnerable stories and practical wisdom, this episode examines creativity as an act of service, healing, and fearless self-truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Artistic Confidence and Audience

• Rick Rubin is confident in his art because he only tries to make something he personally likes, removing the pressure to please others.
  • “I’m confident with artistic expression because my only goal is to make something that I like... I can keep working on it until I like it.” (03:34, Rick Rubin)
• Rubin explicitly distances himself from external validation:
  • “The audience comes last... When you make something truly for yourself, you’re doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience.” (04:05, Rick Rubin)
• Art, to Rubin, is like a diary: you cannot be concerned with how your diary is received by others (04:59, Rick Rubin).

2. Courage, Vulnerability, and the Role of the Critic

• Sharing authentic art requires courage:
  • “As soon as I decide to share it, in my mind, it’s success because I care about it enough... If other people like it or not, that’s up to them.” (05:51, Rick Rubin)
• Most people are blocked by the opinions of others; Rubin emphasizes turning this off is critical for true artistry (06:54, Rick Rubin).

3. Diminishing Self-Doubt and Conditioning

• Rubin relates taste in art to taste in food—what you like is undeniable:
  • “No one could convince you that the thing that tastes bad to you tastes good to you.” (08:14, Rick Rubin)

4. Commerce vs. Art

• Rubin advises artists to separate financial needs from creative pursuits:
  • “Dividing them is a really healthy idea. Having a job that supports you so you can be free in your art is ultimately what’s best for the art.” (09:37, Rick Rubin)
• Cites personal and family examples to stress the importance of pursuing what feels right over what is expected (10:00, Rick Rubin).

5. The Experience of Creative Magic

• Even after 40 years, Rubin still feels the "magic" of creativity:
  • “It’s always magic. Always exciting... glimpses of wonder... very addictive.” (11:19, Rick Rubin)
• Creative breakthroughs cannot be predicted; sometimes things that should not work create remarkable results when tried (13:03–14:16, Rick Rubin).

6. On Coaching Artists and Truthfulness

• Rubin’s process with artists is based on intuition and feeling, not formula:
  • “It’s just a feeling. I have no skill set. It’s all intuitive. It’s not what’s in my head. It comes through me.” (23:01–23:13, Rick Rubin)
• He experiences anxiety when starting new projects because he values the uncertainty:
  • “I’m not interested in having a playbook in advance... it’s scary because we have so little control over it.” (24:12–25:25, Rick Rubin)

7. Perfection, Vulnerability, and Humanity

• Perfection is not the goal—humanity exists in the rough edges:
  • “Humanity breathes in the mistakes... it’s what’s not ordinary.” (32:44, Rick Rubin)
• Confidence must blend with vulnerability; too much hides truth (30:43, Rick Rubin).

8. Meditation, Cleansing the Mind, and Sobriety

• Rubin shares he’s never been drunk or high, correlating this clear-mindedness to his creative longevity and spiritual clarity (33:58–37:01, Rick Rubin).
• He views meditation as crucial in keeping his mind open, quiet, and receptive (66:59–69:29, Rick Rubin).

9. Art as a Spiritual Devotion and Manifestation

• Rubin reveals that greatness is “a devotional act for a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.” (85:32, Rick Rubin)
• He believes in manifestation but only as an act of pure intention, not focused on outcomes (52:27–54:47, Rick Rubin):
  • “If you’re making a gift for God, you’re putting all your purest intention into this thing for the universe.”

10. On Overcoming Obstacles and Knowing When to Let Go

• Rubin differentiates between overcoming obstacles as vital and recognizing when the universe signals it's not the right time (57:12–58:03, Rick Rubin).

11. Success, Fame, and Internal Fulfillment

• Success rarely “fills the hole” inside; fulfillment is internal, not external (61:36–62:43, Rick Rubin).
• On wanting fame: “Consider therapy.” (63:45, Rick Rubin)
• Therapy and meditation have taught Rubin to express his feelings and be present (64:01–66:59, Rick Rubin).

12. Advice for Artists and Creative Habits

• Play is essential, as is hard work:
  • “Dedication to the craft... and being free to play in it.” (75:44, Rick Rubin)
• The first version often holds magic; sometimes, the initial creative spark is strongest, and you must be open to retaining that (77:04–77:58, Rick Rubin).

13. Essence of Greatness and Three Truths

• Rubin’s ultimate advice (83:50):
  • “Be true to yourself. Know yourself as best as you can. Allow that person to evolve and change as conditions change.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authenticity:
  “The audience comes last... When you make something truly for yourself, you’re doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience.” — Rick Rubin (04:05)

• On Art vs. Commerce:
  “Art doesn’t... That’s something else. It’s not art, that’s commerce.” — Rick Rubin (04:59)

• On Vulnerability:
  “There’s a vulnerability required for the artist... It’s a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through.” — Rick Rubin (30:43)

• On Creative Process:
  “You don’t have to wait for permission from someone else... that’s a big part.” — Rick Rubin (17:48)

• On Manifestation and Devotional Work:
  “Greatness is what you make in a devotional act for a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.” — Rick Rubin (85:32)

• On Internal Fulfillment:
  “You may think the success is going to fill some hole... and the hole’s the same. It creates hopelessness.” — Rick Rubin (61:36)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:34 | Being confident in artistic intentions | | 04:05 | “The audience comes last” — making art for oneself | | 09:37 | Separating art and commerce; maintaining creative freedom | | 11:19 | The experience of creative magic and “glimpses of wonder” | | 23:01 | Intuition and feeling over technical analysis in the creative process | | 30:43 | The interplay of confidence and vulnerability | | 33:58 | Rick’s experience with sobriety and how it’s influenced his life | | 52:27 | Manifestation rooted in pure intention, not outcome | | 61:36 | The emptiness of external success without internal fulfillment | | 75:44 | The habits of dedication and play in artistic practice | | 83:50 | Rick’s “Three Truths” and core life advice | | 85:32 | The revised definition of greatness as a devotional act |

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Rick Rubin’s Closing Advice & Life Lessons

• Be True to Yourself: Develop deep, ongoing self-awareness and let your art come from that evolving self.
• Separate Art from Commerce: Seek freedom by meeting your material needs separately, so commerce doesn’t taint your creative core.
• Value Feeling Over Thinking: Creativity is a somatic, intuitive process—analysis comes only after the feeling.
• Embrace Play, Then Commit: The most profound work comes from play; grueling effort polishes it for the world.
• Devote Your Work: Treat creativity as a spiritual offering—“a gift to God”—regardless of output or recognition.

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Further Listening and Action

• Recommended: Rick Rubin’s book The Creative Act: A Way of Being for artists and anyone looking to unlock creative expression.
• Docu-series: Shangri La explores Rick Rubin’s unique creative environment and philosophy.
• Final Thought: “Greatness is what you make in a devotional act for a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.” (85:32, Rick Rubin)

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This summary captures the heart of Rick Rubin’s creative philosophy, distilled through Lewis Howes’ probing and empathetic questions. For those seeking authentic greatness, Rubin’s blend of humility, discipline, and mystical devotion offers a modern blueprint.

Transcript

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[Lewis Howes]

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Rick Rubin in the house. Good to see you sir and thank you for being here. You have an incredible journey, incredible story and you've done some amazing things. You're a nine time Grammy winning producer, named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world. You've got a number one Yorktown bestselling book which has just taken over the world in a powerful way. And I've got so many questions I want to ask you about this, but you've also worked with some of the most influential artists of our generation, which is really cool just to sit and be with you to talk about some of this. Some of the people like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Johnny Cash, Jay Z, Tom Petty, Ana Del Rey, so many Adele, the Chicks, Kanye West, Lady Gaga. So many incredible influential artists of our time. I watched part of your documentary series and I just am fascinated by the way you think and by the way you move throughout space and time. I love that you're an avid meditator and that you walk around barefoot pretty much every single day. I think you had to wear shoes here today just to enter the building, but otherwise 99% of your life is barefoot. And something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with is tapping into their creativity. And I think a lot of people are born with an artistic expression inside of them, but then it gets diminished over time. A lot of people, not everyone. And I'm curious, do you feel like. Have you. When have you felt like you've been most insecure in your creative endeavors because you seem so confident? You have hit after hit. Everything you touch turns into gold, seemingly. But I'm also assuming that not everything works out the way you envision. Do you ever feel insecure with your artistic expression, or are you always confident?

[Rick Rubin]

I'm confident with artistic expression because my only goal is to make something that I like. And I know that I can keep working on it until I like it. So in some ways, there's no pressure because the goal is to make the thing that I like. I know what I like. If I don't like it, I keep working. And eventually we get to a place where we like it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Do you ever face the inner critic of, well, what if other people don't like this?

[Rick Rubin]

No, I don't consider them at all. Really? Yeah. Something I say in the book is that the audience comes last, and I believe that I'm not making it for them, I'm making it for me. And it turns out that when you make something truly for yourself, you're doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience. So much of. Why, if you go to the movies, so many big movies just not good, it's because they're. They're not being made by a person who cares about it. They're being made by people who are trying to make something that they think someone else is going to like. And that's not how art works. Art doesn't. That's something else. It's not art that's commerce. So if we're making art, we're making.

[Lewis Howes]

It's.

[Rick Rubin]

It's almost like. It's almost like a diary entry. So it can some. Could I be concerned that someone else might not like my diary entry? Doesn't make sense. You know, it has nothing to do with them. My. My diary entry has nothing to do with anyone else. So everything we make as artists are essentially diary entries.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting. And it's also. Most people never want the world to see their diary. Right. It's like you kind of keep it closed off. You keep it to yourself. You almost feel embarrassed if someone found your diary. If it's really personal, intimate, you know, fears or Concerns or hopes and dreams. So how does someone write or create something for themselves in their own personal diary, but also want to share it with the world and not allow the criticisms to affect them?

[Rick Rubin]

That's where the. The courage of the artist comes in, which is, this is who I am. And in my case, I'm less concerned with the result. So I think that's a lot of it. It's like I'm not making it for someone else to get their reaction. I'm making it to have my experience. And as soon as I decide to share it in my mind, it's success because I care about it enough. I like it enough for other people to see it. If other people, they can like it or not, that's up to them. And that's. That's their thing, you know, that's about them. That's not about me.

[Lewis Howes]

Why do you think so many people struggle with the opinions of others when they're sharing their art to the world?

[Rick Rubin]

I think it's a natural human thought. I don't know if it was always.

[Lewis Howes]

The case because you don't have that at all. It sounds.

[Rick Rubin]

I don't have that at all. I don't have that at all.

[Lewis Howes]

But it seems like 99% of people have that. It seems like it. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. I think the best artists tend not to have that or find a way to turn it off, really. And a big part of my job with artists is helping them turn it off. It's like we're not thinking about singles. We're not thinking about chart position. We're not thinking about anything but making the most beautiful, honest, true thing we can. And when I say honest and true, it could be fiction. Do you know what I'm saying? It's the thing that touches us and excites us and surprises us, which is also interesting. The fact that we can make something that surprises us happens every day.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You talk about magic a lot. You know, I've seen that in your book, but also in the documentary series about, you know, the work you've done. And how does someone tap into their own magic when they have such a critical mind? Self criticism, but also family, critics, managers, all that other stuff, criticizing what's good and what's not good. How do you coach someone to actually eliminate or diminish decades of conditioning within a week or two to make their art?

[Rick Rubin]

I would say the.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

It.

[Rick Rubin]

It comes down to, like, a personal reaction to something. If I. If I gave you two different foods and I asked you to taste Them you wouldn't have a hard time telling me which one you liked if you really liked one and didn't like the other. So if you had people around you saying, no, but this other one that you don't like, that's the good one. That no one could convince you that the thing that tastes bad to you tastes good to you. So it's a very simple. It's such a simple idea. Getting to what do I actually like? No second guessing. No. It doesn't go past and it doesn't have to stand for anything. It doesn't have to represent you. It's just, this is the thing that tastes good to me. What do you think? That's, that's our whole job is this tastes good to me.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you think when an artist is. You mentioned commerce and you mentioned art. When an artist is struggling financially and they're like, I want to make things that I enjoy that taste really good for me, but I've been doing that for five, seven, ten years and it doesn't taste good for anyone else. How can I make a living around my art? Or should I not think about my art as making a living, but I should be thinking about commerce separate from the art?

[Rick Rubin]

I think dividing them is a really healthy idea. And just having a job that supports you so that you can be free in your art is ultimately what's best for the art.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. Now you can get a job related, you know, you can get a job in the industry you're interested in. You can get a job if you're a painter, you can get a job in a gallery, you can be around it. And then also when you do something like that, if you were to work in a recording studio, you may decide, this is not for me. You know, we don't really know. We have ideas of what we want to try. But then when you try them, sometimes, yes, that works. Sometimes you don't. So many people get on a track when they're young. I have a cousin who went to school to become a dentist and he was a dentist for years. And after 15 or 20 years, just like, I can't do this. This isn't. I don't want to do this. It was a wrong choice. So many people live an unhappy life sticking to a program from when they were younger. And we have to find, like you, you are speaking to people now versus playing sports. It's a big change. Yeah, but it seems like a really positive change for you. But it wasn't what you set out to do originally, right?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You've been doing this for how long now? Producing music for 40 years.

[Rick Rubin]

40 years?

[Lewis Howes]

Roughly 40 years.

[Rick Rubin]

Close to 40 years.

[Lewis Howes]

Have there ever been a time where you felt like it was stagnant for you, or you weren't creatively inspired, or you felt like it was dull? It wasn't this awe or magic that you were wanting.

[Rick Rubin]

It was. It's always magic. It's always exciting. I can't say that every moment of every project has been that, but there are always these glimpses of wonder that come through the. Through the creative process that are staggering and they're very addictive. You know, being in a room where something's not happening and all of a sudden it's happening and you don't know why and you don't know what changed. It's a very exciting feeling.

[Lewis Howes]

How often do you experience that feeling?

[Rick Rubin]

All the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

All the time. Now, when I say all the time, we may start a project and maybe it doesn't happen for a few days, but then it starts happening.

[Lewis Howes]

What is that moment and what is the feeling that you have? And what is it that you notice, either in your mind or in the environment that is shifting for that feeling to occur?

[Rick Rubin]

It's an inner excitement. It's like a leaning forward. It's a curiosity of like, can we hear that again? What was that? What was that? I've not heard that before. That's interesting to me.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

So after four decades of doing this, you still get surprised by hearing new things?

[Rick Rubin]

All the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

All the time. Why does this work? With this? Who knows? And if I were to tell you the idea, or if someone were to tell me the idea, I would listen to their words and think, that's terrible idea. And then we try it and it's remarkable.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Can you give me an example of something that stands out for you from maybe a well known artist that people know about, or maybe someone completely unknown?

[Rick Rubin]

I can say something happened the other day where we recorded a song in a particular way with a particular instrument and it sounded really beautiful. And then the artist said, well, let's try it, I'm imagining it. And they described something so different and in the description it sounded terrible.

[Lewis Howes]

The way they explained it, the way.

[Rick Rubin]

They explained it, or the references they gave me references of, well, if we do it like this band with this kind of a beat and the. And I tried to imagine the same song that we just recorded, this different way, that way. And in my imagination it did not sound good. And then I said, let's Try it. And then they played it. And at first it didn't sound good, but very quickly it got great. And there's no way to know. There's no way to know. You can't. That's. That's a big part of it is I see artists who get into arguments. Like a band who gets into an argument. Let's do it this way. No, let's do it this way. And I'll always say, well, let's just play it both ways and listen. See, let's see. Let's see what actually happens.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. And that might spark something completely new.

[Rick Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

They both might suck.

[Rick Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's try another one.

[Rick Rubin]

Or they both might be great. And sometimes when they're both great, it's like, oh, maybe this is better for the chorus. Then this other thing actually can work as a bridge. We weren't even looking for a bridge.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. That's fascinating. In this documentary series about you and your facility and kind of your life.

[Rick Rubin]

The Shangri La.

[Lewis Howes]

Shangri La, Yeah. Powerful. I'm not all the way through it. I've done the first episode and a half. Someone in the first episode says, rick helps people be the best version of you. And I'm curious, who helps you become the best version of yourself?

[Rick Rubin]

Probably, I would say now my family having a family, but also I have some. Some really hard driving friends, like, you know, you met Laird Hamilton. Someone like. If you have someone like Laird in your. Your life, being around people like him make you better at being a human being.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the biggest thing you struggle with today?

[Rick Rubin]

I think that there are a lot of fun things to try and finding time to do all of the things possible, the exciting things that I want to try.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. Because how do you pick and choose the projects you work on and the artists you work with? Is it a. Is it a feeling? Is it relationships you have with their managers? Is it, yeah, I want to try this new thing and let's bring them in. Is it.

[Rick Rubin]

It usually starts with meeting the artist and just if there's a connection with the. The human. And that's usually how it starts.

[Lewis Howes]

How often does that happen then? Because I'm assuming a lot of people want to work with you. So is it, you know, every Monday people will, you know, managers will send their artists to you and they'll have an interview process with you for an hour or two and then you'll get a vibe and see if you want to work with them. Is there a waiting list? How does that work?

[Rick Rubin]

It honestly doesn't happen. That often because I'm always in different parts of the world and I'm not really part of the system. So if you were to go to. If you got signed to a record company and they showed you a list of all the producers to work with. I'm not on anybody's list.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Rick Rubin]

So someone would have to seek me out outside of the normal system to find me. And then it either would or wouldn't happen.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting. What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self?

[Rick Rubin]

I think it's being concerned what other people think and a feeling of that the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true. We're all. Everyone has the capability to make great things and none of us are special.

[Lewis Howes]

It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said, and in almost it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with. With me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me say I want to write a book. And I ask them, how long have you been. Had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing? And some people will say five, seven, 10 years. But they've been worried about what people think or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

[Rick Rubin]

I think taking action is a really great thing. And not. Not setting up barriers of entry. Like I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background, so in punk rock it was a do it yourself mentality. And you know, I started my first record company not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records and you know, print up 500 copies of a 7 inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from Someone else. I think that's a big part.

[Lewis Howes]

People are waiting for permission to actually make their art.

[Rick Rubin]

To make their art, someone has to say, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book. If you write a book or set the stage to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

[Lewis Howes]

When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm gonna, How.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Do I sell these?

[Lewis Howes]

How am I gonna give them away for free?

[Rick Rubin]

What was the process for you, combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one? That was always any of the things I've made. It's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

[Lewis Howes]

But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

[Rick Rubin]

It's still. I still think in those terms, so I want. I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on, not because of an endowment.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's interesting. I know you're.

[Rick Rubin]

I don't know why. I don't know why, really. But that's just my. And maybe it's just the way I was brought up may just be.

[Lewis Howes]

What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

[Rick Rubin]

I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and being true to themselves. Whatever that is. Feeling. Feeling their truth.

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[Lewis Howes]

And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

[Rick Rubin]

It's a fee. It's just a feeling.

[Lewis Howes]

I feel like feel it. Yeah, I think something that you said was I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me.

[Rick Rubin]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, huh, Something doesn't feel right.

[Rick Rubin]

It starts with a feeling. Always it starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling if there's a reason, like if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling. Then it's like, okay, this feels like this. Can. Can I. Is there a way to figure out why? Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this or this? Let's try those things, see what happens.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced, and you say, okay, let's do this. We're going to work together? Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

[Rick Rubin]

I'll say, when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

Always. Always. Because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in, start. And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have. I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's going to go. And it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an. You know, some artists have an expectation that I'm going to do something. I can't do anything, you know, Right. It's like it's either going to happen or it's not going to happen. So. But then usually within. Sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. That may be the first inclination. It could start that way. And then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it. That's what scary.

[Lewis Howes]

There's no control.

[Rick Rubin]

None.

[Lewis Howes]

And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's gonna do well. I need to make money, I need to make the label happy. Whatever it is, my fans need to love this. Then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you?

[Rick Rubin]

No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page, even the people we're ignoring, the record companies, the manager the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this. I need this. Now, ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State warriors, who told me, there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our plane.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Rick Rubin]

And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game, from the.

[Lewis Howes]

Flow, from the practice, putting in the reps. Yeah, showing.

[Rick Rubin]

And then I say, well, if. Then it's up to you. What's more important, to please them or to win.

[Lewis Howes]

Man, this is fascinating. Was there, was there? What was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced, where just like, everything was lining up. Authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every, every day. And it was also. It was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest. But it also landed commercially and took off.

[Rick Rubin]

The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash, because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success and he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't. He didn't even know why I was interested. That really was the conversation. It's like, what do you think? Why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else? Like, he had given up and to. For him to get into it, we recorded in my living room and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time. We were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs. It was almost like a way for us to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing or song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs. We went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound. It didn't have what the Living Room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as. That's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s. So that was a. And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together. And he had confidence based on the experience of the first one, which he expected nobody to care about, really took hold with people. And then on. I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song. And that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rick Rubin]

And. And that was a real revelation.

[Lewis Howes]

How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've. I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice, but then they lacked the confidence in the game, and they looked like an average player.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Does that. Is that the same thing with. With artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians, where they're. They could be so gifted. But if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, then on the confidence, does that hold people back? Have you seen that?

[Rick Rubin]

I'll say it's. It's not as simple as that, because there's a. There's a vulnerability required for the artist that. If you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through that combination, which is a difficult combination.

[Lewis Howes]

It's almost like what I'm hearing you say. This is really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like you just gotta. If you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.

[Rick Rubin]

That's true. I'll say, though to get up in front of people and single takes a certain amount of confidence.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Rick Rubin]

It's just part of the. It's a hard thing to do. I couldn't imagine Doing it.

[Lewis Howes]

That's true. A friend of mine, just, Rachel Platten, she just. She wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had, you know, she started a family over the last five years, so she's got two. Two young kids. And she just played at the. The Troubadour a couple nights ago. And I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out and she's like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man with these new songs in a while, and I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful.

[Rick Rubin]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

It was like, we're rooting for her. You know, she. She messed up a few times, but she kept going. And she's like, hey, I'm going to restart this and thank you, guys. You know, but it was like, wow. It made moments of, like, awe and magic happen.

[Rick Rubin]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

It was so cool.

[Rick Rubin]

Yes. And it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the. It's what. It's what's not ordinary. If it was. If it was machine, like, perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Rick Rubin]

It's all the same. So it's the. It's the edges. It's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

[Lewis Howes]

Talk about transcendence. You talk about manifestation in the universe. I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for?

[Rick Rubin]

I learned when I was 14, and it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually, but I go through phases of five years on, two years off, or something might replace it. That's another kind of a meditation. Like, I may go from TM sitting meditation to learning Tai chi, and Tai chi will fill the slot of my TM time.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. Transcendental meditation. Yeah. And I also read that you really have never been into drugs or alcohol. Is that correct? I've never been drunk or high in my life.

[Rick Rubin]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

And, you know, as an athlete playing football, college football and professional football, it was kind of shocking when people would hear that from me because the stereotype is, you know, the dumb jock that just drinks and does keg stands. But I learned early on, I was telling you before, that my brother Went to prison when I was 8. And when you go to a prison visiting room every single weekend and you realize quickly you don't want to go there. And a lot of. A lot of guys were in there for drugs or, you know, doing bad things. And for me, I was just like, oh, I. I don't even want to try some of this stuff because I don't know where this might lead. So let me just eliminate this from my life now. I've had sips here and there, but I've never been drunk. How has cleansing your mind of drugs and alcohol, of not really diving into it, supported you as an artist? And do you think drugs and alcohol can make artists be great?

[Rick Rubin]

I can tell you that when I was going to high school, most of the kids that I knew would come home from school and get high. And the main reason was out of boredom and just trying to fill time. And I never. I always feel like there's not enough time. Like, there's so much I want to learn, there's so much I want to read, there's so much I want to try that I'm not trying to turn off time. I'm interested in something different now. The idea of a hallucinatory experience sounds interesting to me, but I've not done it.

[Lewis Howes]

You've never done psychedelics or anything? I've never done that either. I've always been, you know, I have a lot of friends that do it. I'm sure you do as well. And I don't know, for whatever reason, it's never excited me to try. Yeah, maybe in the future.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, same. I feel like someday I. I will probably do it.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. See? Have you been drunk or high?

[Rick Rubin]

I got drunk one time as part of a school assignment.

[Lewis Howes]

School assignment. Well, what school is this?

[Rick Rubin]

I went to Harvard for somewhere between my junior and senior year of high school to start getting college credits. And I took a logic class and a design class, and they had a Harvard bartending class. And I thought, that's really funny. Even as someone who doesn't drink, the idea of, like, having a degree in bartending from Harvard was funny. So I did it, and I thought of it like chemistry. The idea of mixing things is interesting.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting. It's only one time.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, we. The final exam was you to mix, like, 30 different drinks and then taste them to know what they taste like. And I got really drunk, and it was terrible experience.

[Lewis Howes]

So you've never been drunk since then?

[Rick Rubin]

No.

[Lewis Howes]

You've been high or.

[Rick Rubin]

No. I went on my 40th birthday in Kauai. I prayed all day and I did a ceremony where I smoked some marijuana the only time in my life. And I would say it had almost no effect.

[Lewis Howes]

No effect?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, almost, no.

[Lewis Howes]

So you might have felt a little buzz or something, but nothing.

[Rick Rubin]

I didn't feel a buzz. I would say that when I looked out into the landscape, there was more clarity between the foreground and background. That was one. And I remember we drove to dinner and I drove and driving felt more fun than usual. Like playing a video game.

[Lewis Howes]

Sure, sure, sure. But you weren't really high or whatever. That's fascinating. So never really drunk or high except for a social experiment or, you know, a one time trial thing. I don't think I've met many people who've never been drunk or high like me. So that's pretty interesting. Maybe that's the Pisces in us, you know, maybe.

[Rick Rubin]

And you know, Pisces have a tendency to go the other way of everything. We are addictive people.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes, historically, yes. That's why one of the things is I don't think if I would have gotten into alcohol or, or some type of drug, I think I would have become addict. I would have been extreme with it.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So I've tried to be extreme in more healthier ways, I think for myself. Now the stereotype is, or the generalization is that a lot of artists smoke weed or do drugs or experiment with alcohol or do these different things and they talk, you know, maybe this is my own perception of it. They talk about it in their creative process. Right. I was high when I did this and it gave me all these creative ideas. How do you view that of when artists are working with you, are they smoking, are they drinking, you know, when they're with you, or do you try to help them eliminate that to clear their mind?

[Rick Rubin]

I want people to do what they want to do. I have no. If I see someone doing something that's interfering with their work, I'll talk about it. But if it's not interfering with their work, that's their business.

[Lewis Howes]

Have you ever seen an artist that you knew had a history of alcohol or smoking marijuana or some type of drug that when they worked with you, they weren't. They were clear of all drugs and substances and they were actually able to create something beautiful and magical?

[Rick Rubin]

Well, I saw the Chili Peppers go from a band that were very dysfunctional on a lot of drugs, which I didn't really know. I just knew that when I met them. The feeling in the room was one I didn't want to be around. And then I met them years later and they had gotten clean and I felt like it was a different group of people. And then we ended up making Blood Sugar, Sex Magic which ended up being a very successful album for them. And then I produced most of their.

[Lewis Howes]

Albums since when they were clean. And you know, that's interesting. Do you think that people overall make better work as artists when they are clear minded without substances?

[Rick Rubin]

I think over the long term that's probably the case. But there are many great artists who use something like marijuana as a. Some people have told me that they can hear music in a different way. Again, I haven't experienced it, so I can't say. But some people have told me that they hear music in a different way when they smoke and they can access their creativity. So I think you have to do your own testing.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you think it's better to make. I don't know about better is the right word, but do you think it's more impactful to make your art from a place of pain, anger or sadness or from a place of love, peace and harmony?

[Rick Rubin]

I don't think it matters. I think it's true to your experience. So if you're feeling anger and sadness, a sad, angry song would probably be good. And if you're feeling love and peace, then you're in the right frequency to create that kind of song. You can also sometimes if you're in a real pain, you can write a yearning song for love that can have be very deep. One of the things about when you're in pain, you tap into. You tap into things to you're looking for. You're not satisfied in your condition. So you're yearning for change. And sometimes the energy of yearning for change can lead to really beautiful music.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Is there someone that you're able to talk about or share that spoke and created from a place of yearning when they worked with you that later said it was an extremely healing process for them, working with you for a few weeks on an album and expressing their diary in that way and allowed them to heal and have lightness on the other side.

[Rick Rubin]

The most recent one was I made an album, the last album of Ke$, and her. She had gone through a very difficult experience.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Rick Rubin]

And she told me that it was a very healing experience working on the album and different than any experience she'd had previously where it was much more about commerce before.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the most painful thing you've been through that you've had to heal and overcome?

[Rick Rubin]

Probably the biggest one was you know, I was overweight most of my life and it was just, it was. I was not comfortable in my body and I always felt like an outsider and felt like it limited what I could do.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. So I think probably weight was my biggest issue.

[Lewis Howes]

What was the root behind that, you think?

[Rick Rubin]

I think it was mostly bad information. Although my mom was obese, so I thought it's just genetic. And I tried everything, I tried every type of diet, nothing worked. And then eventually I found the correct balance and I was a vegan for 23 years and I weighed 318 pounds as a vegan.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Yeah. You can be a sick vegan or you can be.

[Rick Rubin]

I was very sick as a vegan and I wasn't getting what I needed.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Rick Rubin]

And it's a carb. It's basically a carbohydrate diet.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. And you can have all the sugar you want being a vegan, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for you as well. So it's like.

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Lewis Howes]

You know, it sounded like you tried a lot of different things for 20 years, but it didn't work. But you found the right combination. But was there something you needed to mend or heal emotionally that allowed you to shift internally?

[Rick Rubin]

It was just information. I was always willing to do it. I would say probably the biggest Maybe there is an aspect which is I thought I knew what was best. So there was a sense of turning over control to someone else. That was a surrender.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rick Rubin]

I saw a doctor at UCLA who a friend of mine recommended I go to. I knew it wasn't going to work because I had done everything and nothing worked. And he put me on a particular diet. And I remember thinking, it sounds terrible, but I. And it's not going to work, but I'll, you know, I'll do what you say that. No belief and. But I put my faith in him or I. I gave up fate. I gave up. But listened and.

[Lewis Howes]

And committed to the process.

[Rick Rubin]

And committed to the process. And the weight fell off.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

How long did it take? Was it like a six month year process?

[Rick Rubin]

14 months. And I lost one 35 pounds.

[Lewis Howes]

Man, that's awesome. Congrats on that.

[Rick Rubin]

Thank you very much.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. And when was this?

[Rick Rubin]

12 years ago, something like that.

[Lewis Howes]

12 years ago. You look really healthy right now. That suntan, you know, wherever you're at.

[Rick Rubin]

I spend a lot of time in the sun. I'm sun worshiper.

[Lewis Howes]

Now. Do you feel like when you were able to, I guess, get that support, see the changes physically to something transform inside of you spiritually to be a better artist once that transformation started to happen, or did you think you were still making great art, you know, when you were 100 pounds overweight?

[Rick Rubin]

I think we were making great art the whole time. The differences between losing weight and then meeting Laird and starting to train and get into my body, because I was sedentary my whole life and just sitting all day, Sitting all day or laying down all day? I liked laying down more than sitting. This is the longest I've been in a chair that I. Since I've been on an airplane with Laird. When I showed up to Laird's the first time, I couldn't do one push up.

[Lewis Howes]

Come on.

[Rick Rubin]

Swear to you could not do one push up. And with his support, I worked up to being able to do 100 consecutive push ups, which was mind blowing. So what changed between the weight loss and meeting Laird was I now see anything is possible and that you could train for anything. There's nothing you can't do. You can't be the best in the world at something, but you can be a lot better than you are at anything. You want to put the time into learning whatever it is. You could do anything. And that's a great, inspiring feeling. And I feel like I bring that into the art where I already had great confidence. But even more So I now know anything is possible at any time.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rick Rubin]

Just if you have to do the work.

[Lewis Howes]

So this was 12 years ago when this started to happen. Right. And so if I got my wrath right, are you 60 right now?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, I just turned 60.

[Lewis Howes]

Just turned 60 in March. I just turned 40. If you could go back to your 40 year old self, what would the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then?

[Rick Rubin]

I would always say just have as much fun as possible because I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And I'm hard on myself in that way, in that I have high expectations and I think we can have fun too.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. What brings you the most joy?

[Rick Rubin]

I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach, laughing together, reading together, watching movies together. You know, watching wrestling. You know, I like pro wrestling, of course, pro wrestling with my son. It's fun.

[Lewis Howes]

That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or UFC now?

[Rick Rubin]

Always been pro wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

[Lewis Howes]

They do hurt each other.

[Rick Rubin]

That's why I like wrestling. It's like it's more. Everybody's on the same side, right? For it to be the best show.

[Lewis Howes]

They want it to be a win win.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, it's a win win.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, you talked about that. And you know, this documentary series about, you know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the BC boys and a commercial, like just being this hype man promoter. Like, you know, how much has, I guess pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

[Rick Rubin]

A lot. A lot. Because it's. It's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery and great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story, and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends, you know, it's like, we don't know, but sometimes they really do hate each other. And then the matches are different when they really hate each other, but you never know when it is. So there's this, there's a sense of. And I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny. I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling because it's the most like the world in the world. We don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on, you know, airs or.

[Lewis Howes]

A performance, a mask.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. Or the politician talks, and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. So there's this, like, performative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that the, you know, wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real. That's what it is.

[Lewis Howes]

I wanted to go back into what you talked about with, you know, you mentioned transcendence, and I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer with this, you know, particular song with System of Down. What's your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in a, you know, artist should be thinking in that way? And what's your thoughts on it?

[Rick Rubin]

I believe in it a million percent. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So. So when I say, it's like, I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out, and that ends up being a manifestation mindset. But it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about. I want to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that you can manifest things.

[Lewis Howes]

It happens.

[Rick Rubin]

But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome. Ooh.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you mean?

[Rick Rubin]

I'm never asking for a result.

[Lewis Howes]

What are you asking for?

[Rick Rubin]

I'm asking for to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know. Most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to Realize that great means it's a devotional. It's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rick Rubin]

If you're making. If you're making a gift to God, there's no greater. You can't put more into it than that. You know, you can't. What about the single. What about. What about what someone's going to say who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God, that there's. You're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe. Wow. That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness. Greatness, that was the word of what I was shooting for. But I've come to realize what it is. Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

You have a whole kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which. I loved your explanation there. That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is a. Is a pure gift of yours to God.

[Rick Rubin]

Yes. And it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do. This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.

[Lewis Howes]

If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be?

[Rick Rubin]

I don't think there's a formula.

[Lewis Howes]

Is there an art to manifesting?

[Rick Rubin]

I don't know. I think it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do and then really dedicating yourself.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing. Because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing. Maybe it's the right time now. Maybe it's five, 10 years away from now.

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[Lewis Howes]

How do we really tap into that knowing?

[Rick Rubin]

I think it's. It's. It's situational. And I think the. Again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you, directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm. I'm excited about, and I kind of get them all going, and then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on, never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators. Impossible. Some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying, now's not the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting, because, you know, I, I love this. And I also hear the other side of the, I guess the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know, Ryan Holiday.

[Rick Rubin]

I did.

[Lewis Howes]

The Obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of, like, when the obstacle is there and presents itself, and you also feel like this is something you want to do. Like you've got to kind of go through that pain and, you know, overcome it.

[Rick Rubin]

That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle, but I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently, and there's another path.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Rick Rubin]

That's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them, you know.

[Lewis Howes]

Go for the effortless way. Yeah.

[Rick Rubin]

Well, pay attention. See, when, when is the universe giving you a push? When is that? When is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I'm, I'm, I would never suggest not fighting through the work. It's, it's, it's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now's not the time. It's like all, everything you throw at it gets deflected.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. But this other thing is guiding you.

[Rick Rubin]

Taking its own, taking on its own life. Earlier, you, you asked about what I perceive to be a shortcut. And a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing? And I think that the real question is, how much more can I give to the thing I'm making? What else can I give to it? And, and thinking in terms of how much more can we do, not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts. It's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four hour work week. I love to, you know, I love to, but that's not. It's like whatever it takes for it to be all. It could be commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. That's beautiful, man. And so do you. So you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

[Rick Rubin]

Doing anything that's within our power. If it doesn't have to make sense, nothing has to make sense. You know, could be when I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter. Don't question it. Just do whatever Works do it.

[Lewis Howes]

Is it really art if you're making money off of it?

[Rick Rubin]

Absolutely does. It doesn't matter. It's not about the outcome. That's what I'm saying. Like you. If you don't make money or if you do make money, that has nothing to do with the art. Art is the art. And then whatever happens after happens after. If you make something that you love, I know if I make something I love, if more people like it, that's only a good thing. Now, I wouldn't change a word of it for someone else to like it. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like I make the thing I love and then present it to the world. And then if the world likes it, great. And if more people like it than less, better, why not? We're sharing something we love, something we think is beautiful. So the more people who embrace it. But again, I would never change it for anyone else because that's not what it's about. It's not about that.

[Lewis Howes]

With the artists you've worked with that you knew before they were global successes or their art, their music, or, you know, was known by many.

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[Lewis Howes]

You see became their biggest challenge once they became extremely successful? Because a lot of artists, I would think, want their art to be liked and listened to by people. They want to make a living and more people like it. Typically, that's a good thing. Typically. But sometimes we see artists who have this incredible rise of success and then seem to struggle with whether, whatever, depression, anxiety, maybe the pressure, can I do this again? Will I be able to have these many hits again? What is the biggest challenge you see with artists becoming successful?

[Rick Rubin]

Probably the biggest one is nobody prepares you for success. And you may have a dream of what it's like, and you may think the success is gonna fill some hole you have in your soul. And then the success and you work your whole life for this success that's gonna fill the hole and finally you get the success and the whole's the same and it's. It creates hopelessness.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rick Rubin]

Because you always. You're working towards this goal that's going to fix the problem, but it's. The goal doesn't fix the problem. It. I would say I can't. I can't. I can't say never, but I would say always. Almost never. Fixes the problem.

[Lewis Howes]

What fixes the problem for people?

[Rick Rubin]

It's something else. It's. It's something inside themselves. It's something inside themselves.

[Lewis Howes]

So do you think success can almost hurt someone more Than before they have it, after they have just.

[Rick Rubin]

It depends on the person's temperament. You know, for some people, being famous is the greatest thing, is all they ever wanted. And for some people, they become famous and it's the worst nightmare. That's not what they wanted. They miss their privacy, they miss their anonymity. They miss being able to go and do whatever they want and not be singled out or pointed to or talked to or even if people are nice. Like it's a different, it's different and no one teaches you how to do that or you want to go do something with your family. And then there are photographers there and it's very awkward.

[Lewis Howes]

What advice do you have for people that want to be famous? Success is one thing, but fame is another thing and they don't always happen together. For someone that wants to be famous, what advice would you have for them?

[Rick Rubin]

I don't know. I would say, I would look at why that is. I would maybe see, you know, consider therapy.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. Have you ever done therapy yourself?

[Rick Rubin]

I've done, yeah, I've done all kinds of therapy.

[Lewis Howes]

What has been the biggest lesson you learned through therapy for you?

[Rick Rubin]

I learned how to express my feelings clearly. Like when I, the first time I went to therapy, I didn't even know how to talk. I didn't know how I felt about anything.

[Lewis Howes]

How old were you then?

[Rick Rubin]

Maybe 26.

[Lewis Howes]

So you learned how to express your feelings then?

[Rick Rubin]

Yes. And to not only, yes, express them, but also to actually, you know, feel them in myself to understand, not just feel like blocked off or frustrated or like what's beneath it, what's actually going on.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Lewis Howes]

L and what is the biggest lessons that meditation or meditation practices has provided for you?

[Rick Rubin]

It provides a quiet space where the chatter you realize that your. Your thoughts are not you. And that left to your own devices, there'll be a lot of voices in your head just going all the time. And they're not you and they don't mean anything and they're really repetitious. They're not working in your best interest.

[Lewis Howes]

So if your thoughts aren't you, then what are you?

[Rick Rubin]

I suppose you are the unchanging part of yourself that's always there from probably from the time you're born till the time you die and maybe before and after. It's the. It's what's really inside. It's not. It's not changeable. It's what you came with.

[Lewis Howes]

It's not the. The thinking mind. It's almost being the observer of the.

[Rick Rubin]

Thoughts, the one who sees the thoughts. That sounds right. Yeah. Observing good thoughts. Thank you.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's What I was hearing you say, when do you feel the most loved, Rick?

[Rick Rubin]

I would say in general I feel loved. It's an. It's a good feeling. Like I feel, I feel spiritually connected and that's a. That gives me a great feeling of peace.

[Lewis Howes]

Where do you think you'd be in your life if you weren't a meditator? And where do you think you'd be if you allowed yourself to play with drugs and alcohol?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, I can't. I can't really predict. I would say meditation. Without meditation, I don't know who I would be. It's such a big part of who I am informed. So many everything. My understanding of the world is based on learning to meditate when I was young. So I don't know who I would be without that.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you think you would have as much internal harmony and peace and external success without meditation?

[Rick Rubin]

No, certainly not internal peace. I don't know about success.

[Lewis Howes]

I wanted to ask you a question about comparison. You know you mentioned the. The NBA basketball player needing to post more on social media based on what their, their team or the coaches or maybe not the coaches, but maybe the general managers wanted them to do with, with artists. I see a lot of people competing and comparison being in comparison versus just sharing their truths in an authentic way. And sometimes on social media people are vulnerable because it gets attention and then they're over vulnerable and then that becomes a game in itself. But in a world where everything is over saturated seeming and there is a lot of competition for attention, how can an artist stay true to their inner voice and not be in comparison but be willing to collaborate and also see success in others and be okay with it?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah, I think staying out of it, you know, like not participating in that game, that's it's someone else's game. That's someone else's game. I would suggest play your own game. I can remember having a conversation with one of the biggest artists in the world who described an album that they were going to make. And I had just seen them play in a stadium full of people screaming and crying and it was not Paul McCartney. And the album that they were describing was one that none of those 70,000 people screaming and crying wanted to hear. It was clear, it was clear to me. And, and I remember saying that's not your hand like you play when you're playing poker. It's not. You can't just play any cards. You play your hand based on the cards you've been dealt. So depending on the artist, you are like It'd be like. There was a time, I think, when Metallica felt like, we don't really want to be a heavy metal band. We want to be a pop band because pop bands were what's popular, and we have reached a ceiling. Being a heavy metal band, that did not go well. That was a bad idea. They weren't playing their hand. They weren't embracing Metallica. And I think if you embrace your part, it's your best chance being true to yourself, not saying, oh, well, those people over there are getting popular doing this other thing. I don't really like it, but it's really working for them. Maybe I could try that. Recipe for disaster.

[Lewis Howes]

So don't chase something that's not your hand.

[Rick Rubin]

No. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But it sounds like. Correct me if I'm wrong, you know, the. The example I'm thinking of is, like, Lady Gaga came onto the scene doing, I guess, pop music and became very popular, but then said, hey, I want to do this more kind of jazzy, bluesy, like, Tony Bennett thing.

[Rick Rubin]

She was being true to herself, and.

[Lewis Howes]

That'S what I want to do. And I don't care if anyone likes it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Lewis Howes]

But it's what I want to do at this season of my life. True to herself and it may lose.

[Rick Rubin]

Money, but she was not doing it, because I think people like this, right. This is working over here, so I'm gonna try to catch their heat. She was not doing that.

[Lewis Howes]

She probably knew people wouldn't like it. Only a small.

[Rick Rubin]

She didn't care.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, she didn't care. That was true to herself.

[Rick Rubin]

This is what she wanted to do, and she did it.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Were you in touch with her at all during that season or.

[Rick Rubin]

I can't remember if we talked in that time.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm curious, but I'm curious if she's just said, hey, I'm gonna do this, and this is my thing, for sure. That's pretty cool.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. No, I love it when an artist does something unexpected, whether it works or not. You know, it's like it's. They're being true to themselves. They get to be a better artist doing that.

[Lewis Howes]

Whereas the other example is someone, you know, whether it's Metallica or whoever, is, like, chasing a bigger audience or something. Now, if that's true to them, that music, cool, there's an audience there. Go for it.

[Rick Rubin]

Absolutely. Yeah. But it's also something about staying true to yourself in terms of if you come up making a certain kind of music and you get popular making that music, a feeling of, well, this is all Anybody wants from me. So even though I don't care about it anymore, I have to keep doing it. That's a disaster as well.

[Lewis Howes]

Right?

[Rick Rubin]

That doesn't work.

[Lewis Howes]

Who has been the most musically gifted artist that you've been able to work with? Or maybe a few people that you're just like. They were so musically, like, talented and gifted. It was just.

[Rick Rubin]

There've been a lot, you know, There have been a lot I can say. The first time I was in the studio with Carlos Santana and he started playing guitar, it felt like this is coming from another planet. Or John Fruscianti when he plays. From the guitarist and the Red Hot Chili Peppers when he plays guitar. It's a transcendent experience.

[Lewis Howes]

Spiritual.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. And there's a drummer named Chris Dave, who's best drummer I've ever heard. And no matter what he plays, anything he plays is the greatest thing you've ever heard. The simplest thing. He can make anything interesting. Just the way he plays it, not the parts. Doesn't have to be complicated. Doesn't have to be. Look at me. Just the touch, the feel, the tone is miraculous.

[Lewis Howes]

Something you said before is the only goal is to be the best version of ourselves. Is there anything blocking you from becoming the best version of yourself moving forward?

[Rick Rubin]

I don't think so. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm there, but I'm always striving. Always. Anything I can do to get closer, I'll do.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You're. You're willing to learn something new. You're willing to try something on or change anything.

[Rick Rubin]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you think is the. The best habits that an artist can have that maybe you have individually, but also that you see in other artists?

[Rick Rubin]

I would say dedication to the craft, whatever. Whatever their craft is, Dedicating themselves to it, taking it very seriously, and being free to play in it. You know, like taking it seriously at the time when it warrants being taken seriously and having fun and being free in a play way to allow the thing that's worthy of being taken seriously to appear.

[Lewis Howes]

Right, right. Taking it seriously and also allowing yourself to play in it as well.

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. The play always is where it starts. It starts in this playful way where nothing is serious and there are no stakes. And then through that something appears. And then in order to get that into condition to share, there's a grueling effort.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Take that seriously.

[Rick Rubin]

And sometimes it's. Sometimes you do a grueling effort and then you realize, oh, that thing that happened the first day, that's the best version of It. But you don't know that until you've maybe banged your head against the wall for six months working on it. And then you realize, you know what? That first five minutes was the best.

[Lewis Howes]

That was it.

[Rick Rubin]

You can't know that until you go past, you know, you have to work past it to see this was the one.

[Lewis Howes]

This is the best version. How often is it? The first version is usually the best for you.

[Rick Rubin]

I'll say the first version is often. If it's not the best, it's very instructive and holds a magic in it that is to be retained. No matter what else changes, you know, a big part of it is just not screwing up what's good.

[Lewis Howes]

Not messing it up.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

No.

[Rick Rubin]

There are all these stories of, you know, the demos being better than the album. It's easy to not know why something is good. You know, you make a demo and you think, okay, now when I get the professional musicians to play it, it's going to be great. It's going to be that much better. Maybe yes, maybe no. We don't know. We never know. We never know what's going to happen when we do anything.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Rick Rubin]

So to stay neutral and to keep every iteration along the way and be willing to look back after you just spent months refining something to then say, you know what? It was better three months ago. Throw that all away.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. The Creative Act, A Way of being. This is a powerful book. I think it's been on the New York Times bestseller list for 42 plus weeks in a row. I believe right now this has been a game changer for so many different creatives, artists, and also people that don't think they're artists who have been buying this and tapping into their creativity, allowing them themselves to express themselves more fully, more openly, more freely, more honestly and vulnerably. And I want to, I want to recommend this to anyone watching or listening to get a copy or two and give one to a friend. Really think about who in your life do you know has great talent, great artistry or untapped talent that they should be expressing that more and giving that gift to God and to the universe. As you say so so beautifully. Again, think about who in your life needs this book. There's so many great. The thing I love about it is it's, you know, it's a bigger book, but every chapter is short, you know, and for me, I like short bits of wisdom that I can just open up at any time and read a few paragraphs and I've got something.

[Rick Rubin]

Open it randomly and read something. I see what comes up.

[Lewis Howes]

This was the. This is the first thing here. I don't even have this earmarked, but I've got a lot of it earmarked. This says, in the end, the sum total of. Of the essence of our individual works may serve as a reflection. The closer we get to the true essence of each work, the sooner they will somehow, at some point in time, provide clues as to our own. That was the first thing that opened up for me.

[Rick Rubin]

That's cool.

[Lewis Howes]

Page 240. 245. So make sure you guys check that out. But there's. I love the whole section on. You've got sections on greatness. You got a success. You got about listening, you know, inspiration. You talk about inspiration, it appears in a moment. And what. What defines inspiration is the quality and quantity of the download at a speed so instantaneous it seems impossible to process.

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[Lewis Howes]

It is a universal conversation we yearn to be a part of. And I think that's really cool because so many of us are chasing inspiration, but a lot of times it comes to us, right?

[Rick Rubin]

It comes and it.

[Lewis Howes]

And it's almost like getting out of the way and allowing for it to come in. That's why I love, in the docu series that you're a part of Shangri La. It's like you. You have an intentional energy of your environment. You create a space for it to come, and I think that's really cool. And a lot of people aren't, I think, thinking about their environment of spatial surroundings, their environment of people surroundings, their environment of what they consume of music or visual content or what they're reading. They're not intentional with it as much as I think they could be, which you're extremely intentional to allow for inspiration to come. Isn't that right?

[Rick Rubin]

Yeah. We're all. All we are is made up of everything we take in. So the places we're in, the people we're around, the media we consume, that's all we are. So really curate what comes in for your highest good.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. In the Shangri La, the. The docu series, you know, in your recording studio and in your facility, it's all white, you know, there's no TVs, there's no clocks, the floor is white, the walls are white. You have this space that is kind of like this void, you know, When I think of meditation, I really try to think about being no one, no thing, nowhere, no time, so that inspiration can come to me as opposed to having the noise constantly distracting me or influencing me to think something. And so you create a white blank canvas for people to express and develop their art. And I think it's really beautiful. I mean, you guys paint the floors, like after someone comes in, does their work, you repaint the floor so that it's not dirty from the last artists of the past. You create a blank canvas every time an artist comes in, which is just so cool to think about. And I love the intentionality behind how you allow for space to be evolved, for people to draw inspiration. It's really, really cool. I want people to watch that docu series called the Shangri La. But also, again, get a copy of this book. The Creative Act, A Way of being. I've got three final questions for you, Rick. And again, I'm so grateful for your time here and for showing up and just being an inspiration to so many people. And specifically in this interview right now, this is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations. It's called the Three Truths. So it's a hypothetical question and scenario. Imagine you get to, you know, Laird and Gabby continue to keep you fit and healthy, and you get to extend your life as long as you want to be. But eventually it's the last day. You can live as long as you want, but it's the last day for you in the future. And you get to create and learn and experience all the things you want to experience from now at 60 to till that moment. But for whatever reason, it's your last day and you have to take everything with you. Everything you've created, everything you've worked on, everything you've written, everything you've spoken. We don't have access to it in this world anymore. Hypothetical scenario. But you get to leave behind three lessons. And this is all we would have to remember your information by. And I call it the three Truths. What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind?

[Rick Rubin]

I think it might just be one. It might just be. Be true to yourself. Know yourself as best as you can to be true to who you are and allow that person to evolve and change as the conditions change and to not be inflexible.

[Lewis Howes]

I love that I want to acknowledge you, Rick, for, I mean, putting this out there. I heard you talk about being kind of like a grueling process and some challenges here and there, some friction, some obstacles to get it out. It wasn't like this effortless thing.

[Rick Rubin]

And.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm assuming it might have been harder than an album putting an album out there. I want to acknowledge you for sharing your gift with the universe and with all of us, sharing your greatness with so many people because you have, you know, a lifetime of wisdom and information and lessons and to put it together in this way so that we can understand it is really powerful. So I acknowledge you for creating this work of art, for coming on the show and talking so openly and honestly the way you have been and I've seen you on a lot of my friends shows as well, and for being an inspiration to so many people. People value you, they appreciate you, they respect you, and I hope you feel the love from so many people and I just wanted to acknowledge you personally for that. This question, you kind of answered it already, but I'm going to ask you again and see what comes up for you. What is your definition of greatness?

[Rick Rubin]

Greatness is what you make in a devotional act for a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience. Make sure to subscribe to our Greatness plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you.

[Lewis Howes]

Learned over on our social media channels at Lewishouse.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I really love hearing the feedback from you and and it helps us continue.

[Lewis Howes]

To make the show better.

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And if you want more inspiration from our world class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox [e-mail] newsletter and if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

[Lewis Howes]

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