The Real Reason You Can't Stop Your Addiction | Dr. Gabor Maté

Summary

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The Real Reason You Can't Stop Your Addiction | Dr. Gabor Maté

Podcast: The School of Greatness
Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Dr. Gabor Maté
Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This profound episode of The School of Greatness delves into the roots of addiction, trauma, and healing, featuring renowned physician and author Dr. Gabor Maté. Together with Lewis Howes, Dr. Maté challenges mainstream views on addiction, reframes it as a coping strategy rooted in childhood trauma, and offers a compassionate path toward healing. The conversation traverses Dr. Maté's personal experiences, scientific research, cultural critique, and practical guidance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Challenging the Concept of "Healthy Addiction”

• Dr. Maté firmly states there is no such thing as a healthy addiction. He defines addiction as:

  “Any behavior in which a person finds temporary pleasure or relief and therefore craves, but then suffers negative consequences and cannot give it up.”
  (03:05)

• If it’s healthy, it’s a passion or habit, not an addiction. The term “addiction” traces back to “slavery”—addicts are not free.

  “If it’s healthy, it’s not an addiction. If it’s an addiction, it’s not healthy.” (03:02)
  “A slave has no choice.” (04:37)

2. Addiction as a Response to Trauma, Not a Personal Failing

• Addiction isn’t a disease, nor a matter of personal choice or genetics, but an “attempt to solve a deep life problem that was imposed on a person by trauma.”

  “Addiction is never a choice, and it’s not some kind of genetic disease…What it actually is is an attempt to solve a problem in your life.” (09:18)

• Both Dr. Maté and Howes share personal stories of feeling “trapped,” using addiction as an escape from pain, shame, or insecurity:

  “More and more is the essence of addiction. It’s always more and more.” (05:14) “You get escape. You’re not thinking about the pain or the shame or the insecurity.” (08:49)

3. Trauma, Culture, and the Myth of "Normal"

• Dr. Maté emphasizes that what is “normal” in our culture is not always healthy; trauma and societal dysfunction fuel mass suffering:

  “The things we consider normal in society are not at all normal from the point of view of human life and human needs. It’s not healthy, it’s totally unhealthy.” (13:04)

• He argues that many addictions and mental illnesses are normal responses to abnormal situations—especially a toxic, disconnected culture.

4. Mind-Body Unity and Chronic Illness

• Dr. Maté critiques Western medicine’s separation of mind and body, advocating for a scientific and holistic approach to health:

  “Tens of thousands of studies show that you can’t separate the mind from the body…emotions significantly influence the onset of illness.” (19:23)

• Personal and community relationships, not just physical factors, affect well-being and chronic disease.

• Notable examples include connections between stress, trauma, and conditions like asthma, arthritis, and even multiple sclerosis.

5. Emotional Suppression and its Impact

• Emotional repression—particularly common in certain family and cultural environments—is a core factor in illness and addictive patterns:

  “What we suppress usually comes to the surface in some way.” (34:21) “Depression comes from having had to push down your emotions…to stay connected to your parents.” (38:13)

• The cost of demanding children or adults suppress their emotions is generational trauma and widespread social harm.

6. Childhood, Parenting, and Generational Patterns

• Emotional needs, especially the need to be “seen” and accepted, is foundational in childhood development:

  “Not being seen is a major source of trauma. Just not being seen for who you are, not being accepted.” (71:06)

• The survival strategy of suppressing emotions starts young, often as a trade for parental attachment.

• These coping mechanisms can become entrenched identities, making healing challenging but necessary.

7. Bringing Trauma Into the Light

• Healing begins with awareness and compassionate self-examination:

  “What you bring out of yourself will save you, and what you don’t will doom you.” (66:30)

• Addressing shame is crucial, as trauma often causes sufferers to believe they are inherently defective:

  “What you’re ashamed about is actually the brilliance of your nervous system that protected you.” (64:00)

• Support, community, and self-compassion are vital—don’t try to do the hardest healing alone.

8. Breaking the Cycle & Finding Greatness

• Dr. Maté advises that healing familial and generational trauma is possible, but requires honesty, advocacy, and supportive environments.
• Even in adverse or oppressive environments, the human spirit’s resilience can shine through:

  “The strength, the capacity to heal...is inherent in all of us.” (74:04)

• Definition of Greatness:

  “A willingness to find your best qualities and to express them in the world. That’s what I see as greatness.” (74:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On addiction and identity:

  "Addiction is never a choice...It’s an attempt to solve a problem in your life." — Dr. Gabor Maté (09:18)

• On trauma and coping:

  "Depression comes from having had to push down your emotions… to stay connected to your parents." — Dr. Gabor Maté (38:13)

• On the mind-body connection:

  "Tens of thousands of studies show you can’t separate the mind from the body." — Dr. Gabor Maté (19:23)

• On breaking generational cycles:

  "Not being seen is a major source of trauma." — Dr. Gabor Maté (71:06)

• On community healing:

  "In [Lakota] tradition, when somebody gets sick, the whole community gathers and thanks the person...Your healing is our healing." — Dr. Gabor Maté (16:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Definition of Addiction & Healthy Habits – 03:04
• Root of Addiction / Slave to Craving – 04:10–04:43
• Personal Story: Dr. Maté’s Workaholism & Shopping – 05:14–06:14
• What Keeps People Addicted – 07:17
• The Role of Trauma in Addiction – 08:49–09:51
• Addiction as a Coping Mechanism (vs. Disease/Choice) – 09:52
• Healing: Alone or with Support? – 10:14–10:57
• Cultural Roots & The Myth of 'Normal' – 13:04
• Athlete Vulnerability & Societal Shifts – 14:28–14:38
• Mind-Body Disconnection in Western Medicine – 17:28–19:23
• Case Examples (Asthma, Arthritis) – 24:29–25:34
• Lewis's Personal Healing Experience – 25:34–26:53
• Repression, Illness, and Process vs. Diagnosis – 34:21–30:57
• Spontaneous Healing & Relationship to Self – 31:38–33:11
• Parenting and Emotional Expression – 35:03–36:38
• The Power of Self-Compassion – 68:17
• Intergenerational Trauma & Breaking the Cycle – 70:58–71:25
• Inner Resilience in Oppressive Conditions – 73:22–74:04
• The Definition of Greatness – 74:09

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Conclusion

In this enlightening conversation, Lewis Howes and Dr. Gabor Maté dismantle mainstream myths about addiction and healing. Instead, they illuminate how trauma, emotional repression, and cultural toxicity give rise to suffering—and how awareness, compassion, and support can point the way to lasting freedom. The episode is an invitation to recognize addiction not as a flaw, but as a meaningful signal deserving understanding and, ultimately, healing.

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For those seeking deeper insight:

• Dr. Gabor Maté’s latest book: The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture
• Further resources available in the episode’s show notes.

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Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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[Dr. Gabor Maté]

The things that are considered normal in society are not at all normal from the point of view of human life and human needs. But the addictions that people develop are actually normal responses to an abnormal situation. Dr. Mate is a world renowned physician.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Best selling author whose work dives deep.

[Lewis Howes]

Into childhood development and the impact of trauma.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Dr. Gabor Mate, you are the average neurologist with symptoms of Ms. Nobody's going to ask you about your trauma. There's a huge gap between the scientific evidence and how we practice medicine.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Why do you think in our modern society with all the medical and scientific advances that there's so much suffering when we have more information, knowledge and tools than ever before?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

When I read about your stuff, what I see about your content is a lot of people are lost based on trauma and past traumas cause certain addictions or certain behaviors and routines that maybe are some healthy addictions or unhealthy addictions, but it seems to be like a Lot of unhealthy addictions.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Can I interrupt right there?

[Lewis Howes]

Yes, please.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

No such thing as a healthy addiction.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

No such thing.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

If it's healthy, it's not an addiction. If it's an addiction, it's not healthy. There are passions, there are habits that are healthy, but they're not addictions.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Like working out.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. Well, that can be an addiction or it can be healthy. Like eating can be healthy, or it could be an addiction. I define addiction as any behavior in which person finds temporary pleasure or relief and therefore craves, but then suffers negative consequences and cannot give it up. So if you're suffering negative consequences, so it's craving relief, pleasure in the short term, harm in the long term, inability to give it up. That's what an addiction is. Now, if you have a behavior that's ongoing, but it has no negative consequences, it's not an addiction. It's a passion, it's a pleasure, it's.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

A habit, it's a healthy habit.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

It's a healthy habit. So for me, it's not an addiction. And also a healthy habit. A person, if it no longer works for them, they can give it up. So for me, there's no healthy addiction.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

There's no healthy addiction.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

In fact, the word addiction comes from a word for slavery. So there's no healthy slavery.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Interesting. So addiction, what is the root of addiction?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

The word.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So in Roman times, an addictus was somebody who's assigned to another person to serve them because they owed them money and they couldn't pay it back.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

An addictus?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, addictus was like an indentured slave who had to work off the debt. So that's where the word actually comes from, is a form of slavery.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So if you're addicted to something, you are a slave to that craving.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Absolutely. Absolutely. You have no choice. A slave has no choice. Wow.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They have no free will, essentially.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. And I've had my own addictive behaviors and nothing like the patients that I worked with. But insofar as I had them, literally, even though I was a well paid, middle class, successful doctor, I was not exercising any free choice, really, over my behaviors. No.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

When did you. What was the main addiction that you were, you know, tied to? And when did you learn how to break free of that?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, so in my life, the main addictions have been to work, to work, work hard, achieve more and more, patience, more and more success, more and more. More and more is the essence of addiction. It's always more and more. And there's a reason why I developed that addiction and that Was the hardest. That's the hardest one to give up. Then I was addicted for a long time to shopping for classical compact discs. And when I say addicted, I mean I would spend thousands of dollars a day on CDs. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, really. And I would lie to my wife about it, and I would neglect my patience. And as soon as I left the store, thinking, now I'm complete, My collection is full. Half an hour later, I had to run back. And as I described in my book, an addiction and the realm of hunger goes. I once left a woman in labor in hospital to go get a symphony. So that's an addiction.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like that. Now, the interesting thing about addiction is that I wasn't using substances.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You weren't smoking or drinking or things.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Like drugs, But I was looking for a chemical hit.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Dopamine.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Dopamine? Yeah. So I was on a dopamine fiend, you might say. And I get it through those particular behaviors. And so that's what my addiction was. How did I give it up? Well, it took a long time.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Really?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. A lot of struggle, a lot of, you know. And finally I just realized that the cost was greater than the. In fact, you know, in fact, if I started listening now to all the CDs that I have at home and did nothing but listen for the rest of my life.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You wouldn't finish.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I probably wouldn't finish. Wow.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So. So how long would you say, when did you realize, okay, this is an addiction, this is an unhealthy.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I realized it long before I gave it up.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Like years? 10 years? Decades?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Years. Years, yeah. Yes.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

How long does it normally take for someone when they realize this is unhealthy, this thing I'm doing, this addiction is not good for me until they actually give it up? Is there any data on that?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I couldn't answer that one. I think it's a highly variable and individual issue. It has to do with what resources they have to heal. It has to do with what support they have. It has to do with what cost this habit is exacting on their lives. It has to do also with some belief that there's a part of us that's actually healthy and we can get in touch with it. There has to be a co. Combination of factors, and it's very individual. It also depends, of course, the degree of trauma a person suffered. And addictions are always about, like, you've heard my definition of addiction. And I'm sure if I asked you, like, if I asked for talking to a thousand People, put your hands up. If, according to my definition, you've had an addiction, virtually everybody in the room will put their hands up. Maybe there'll be two liars who. Right, right. But 998. And then I asked them not what was wrong with the addiction, but what was right about it. What did you get from it? So if I asked you that. So you've had your behaviors. If I asked you. I don't care whether it was two, but if I asked you, what did you from it?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You get some type of relief, you get some type of pleasure, you get some type of. Specifically, what do you get from it?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

What do you get from it? What did they give you? Temporarily. Whatever it was. I don't even care what it was.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You know, you get escape.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Okay, Escape. Right. Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You're not thinking about the pain or the shame or the insecurity.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So who needs to escape? Me. No, but I mean, what kind of person needs to escape?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh, a scared person.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Scared person. Somebody who's imprisoned, Isn't it somebody who's not free.

[Lewis Howes]

Trapped.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, somebody's trapped. Exactly. And I know in your book on toxic masculinity, you talk about being trapped. Trapped is the very word you use.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yes, and I felt trapped most of my childhood.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

That's the whole point. So what I'm saying is that addiction is never a choice, and it's not some kind of genetic disease, which that is total nonsense. What it actually is is an attempt to solve a problem in your life. In your case, you were trying to solve the problem of being trapped, which is based on your childhood trauma, which you publicly talk about. In my case, the workaholism was about trying to prove to myself that I had the right to exist.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

That it was important that you're worthy of love.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

That I was worthy of love. Exactly. Acceptance and all that. Now, that also came from my childhood experience. So addiction is never like either a disease as such. It can behave like a disease, but it isn't a disease as such. It's also not a choice anybody makes. It's actually an attempt to solve a deep life problem that was imposed on a person by trauma in every case. Wow.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Is it possible for someone to heal a deep wound on their own? A trauma from decades past they've had an addiction to trying to escape from. Is it possible to do it on your own, or does it really take support? Someone. Someone's a team. What's your thoughts on that?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, I think very rarely it is possible for an individual. Maybe they have some deep spiritual Experience. Maybe they're out there in nature and all of a sudden they're at one with the universe.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They feel presence, they feel connected. Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So that can happen. It does happen to some people.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And they just to choose, I'm going to decide not to do this anymore.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They realize they don't need to because they're free.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They fell free.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Interesting. Yeah. Very rare for most of us people, beings that walk this earth. It takes a lot of self awareness. It takes a lot of support, connection, guidance. So I'd say if you're listening and you've got one of these issues where you're addicted to something in the way that Luis and I are just talking about, don't wait for that miraculous moment, get the help, because you have a much better chance that way.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah. So what would you say is the root cause of all addiction then? Is it feeling a wound? Is it feeling trapped by something that's happened in the past?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

The being trapped itself is a sign of a wound. So in fact, the word trauma means wound. The Greek origin of the word trauma is a wound. So children who are hurt, but they're not supported, seen, accepted and helped, they get trapped in a wound. And being trapped in the wound and being trapped in the behaviors to escape from the wound, that's how the trauma shows up in our lives.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Interesting. And in our culture and our society. You know, I talk about this in my book as well, about how as a young boy growing up in the Midwest, in Ohio, I didn't see examples of older men or athletes that I aspired to be, like talking about their emotions or talking about healing or talking about, you know, I had a trauma. Talking about how to, you know, navigate the full range of emotions. It was more, you just get made fun of. If you cried, you get picked on and called, you know, things you don't want to be called. You're, you're kicked out of the tribe, you're not accepted in the tribe and you're, you know, boys group growing up.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And so I feel like culturally there's a lot of pain with men and women, obviously, but that it seems to be, is causing a lot of the stress in the world right now. It's just this cultural pain.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, if I may be self serving, my new book is called the Myth of Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture. So just as you say, the trauma that people are experiencing massively isn't just personal to them, it's also a sign of a culture that's completely out of whack and When I say out of whack, the things we consider the reason I call the book the Myth of Normal is what I'm saying is that the things that are considered normal in society are not at all normal from the point of view of human life and human needs. It's not healthy, it's totally unhealthy. So that the addictions and the diseases and the mental illnesses that people develop are actually normal responses to an abnormal situation. So that whatever addiction you had, or even this mask of rigid masculinity that you tried to adopt for a while until it cracked for you, right?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Needing to win, needing to be the.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Best, but that was a normal response.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

To survive.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

To survive, exactly. So that the abnormality wasn't in you, it was in the situation that you're in. That's what I mean by a toxic culture. Yeah. And I know again, in your book, you, you talk about these public figures that all of a sudden you realize we're talking about their emotions. Yeah, but that's fairly new. Very.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

In the last like five, 10 years.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So these days athletes will talk about their sexual abuse.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

This didn't happen until 10 years ago.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And really more three to five years ago, right?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And so now there's why, why do you feel like people are now starting to open up who are more public figures? Why do you think that's happening?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, I think what's happened that the, the toxicity of the culture. One of my subtitles is toxic culture. And it's got so bad. There's a Greek playwright that I quote in my book, he's Aeschylus and he, one of his plays, he said that the way that God's created us human beings, that we have to suffer, suffer into truth. And I think that the degree of suffering. Now, most people I know who engage in a path of self exploration and truth, they didn't do it because all of a sudden they just made a decision, they just suffered so much. So the suffering can actually wake you up. And I think, to answer your question, this society has got to the point where the suffering is so intense and so widespread that something had to crack open. Right. So I think that's why, you know, it's got so bad that it couldn't be hidden anymore.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Why do you think in, you know, in our modern society with all the medical and scientific advances and all the knowledge out there, that there's so much chronic pain, though, so much suffering, when we have more information and knowledge and tools than ever before, actually, if we.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Don'T we have less. What we have is a lot more physiological, physical science, which is great. You know, I mean, if I needed a heart transplant, I'd be very grateful for modern medicine or, you know, a broken bone or anything. But we've forgotten something that human beings have always known. And, for example, I write about this friend of mine. His name is Louis Mel Madrona, and he's an American physician. He's Lakota background.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And he told me that in this. And he's a. And he's just like me. He's full of respect for Western medicine. I was trained in it. He was trained in it. We also see what's missing. And he said that in his tradition, when somebody gets sick, the whole community gathers and thanks the person and says, you're carrying some dysfunction in our whole culture. So your healing is our healing.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So they get that the individual represents the culture and the environment and the family and the community. Now, Western medicine totally forgets that we separate the mind from the body. So we often, when I speak to groups, I ask people if in the last five years, you've been to a neurologist or an oncologist or a cardiologist or gastroenterologist or a rheumatologist, any kind of an ologist. Put your hand up. So people put their hands up. So keep your hands up. If they ask you about stress in your life, trauma in your childhood.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Relationships.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Relationships. Exactly. How you feel about your work, how do you feel about yourself as a human being? Very few hands stay up. And those questions which have to do with, number one, the unity of mind and body, which is only scientific fact, and the inseparableness of one human being from another, Western medicine completely ignores, which is contrary to science. It's not only contrary to ancient wisdom, it's also contrary to modern science because we have tens of thousands of studies to show that you can't separate the mind from the body. Tens of thousands of studies showing how emotions significantly influence the onset of illness. How relationships. Do you know? There's a wonderful psychiatrist here in la. You may know of him or him. Daniel Siegel. And Dan Siegel talks about what he calls interpersonal neurobiology, which means that our brains are not separate. Something in you will sense the tension in me and will pick up on that. And that'll affect you.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

The intuition.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. That'll change your brain. And I take it a step further. I talk about interpersonal biology so that what happens to people physiologically is very affected. I'll give you two examples. Affected by their culture. And their family. So we've known for decades that children whose parents are stressed are much more likely to have asthma. The parents stresses affect the physiology of the child. The breathing, the breathing, they narrow the air tooth, they cause inflammation. By the way, how do we treat asthma? With stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol. We know American black women. The more experiences of racism then you have to endure, the greater the risk for asthma. Really. We know that men who were sexually abused in childhood, the risk of heart disease triples. I could go on. Women who suffer symptoms of PTSD severely, the risk of ovarian cancer doubles. Why? Because you can't separate the emotions from the body. It's one unit, scientifically speaking. Not just from the point of view of indigenous wisdom, but on modern science. So when I talk, when you say despite all this knowledge, I'm saying what's missing from the knowledge is wisdom is the wisdom. And not just the wisdom, even the science. That's what's so ironic. So I'm a physician and as doctors, we always talk about evidence based practice. And I say, my God, I only wish we had evidence based practice. Let's look at the evidence.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Right?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

You know, what's the evidence for separating the mind from the body? But multiple sclerosis, this mysterious illness. The guy who first described multiple sclerosis was a French neurologist called Jean Martin charcot in the 19th century. He said that it was a disease caused by grief and long term worry. Since then, there's been multiple studies showing the relationship of stress, trauma and multiple sclerosis. You go to the average neurologist with symptoms of ms, nobody's going to ask you about your trauma, nobody's going to ask you about your stress. And why is that significant? Because if you deal with the trauma and the stress, your multiple sclerosis can actually improve significantly. Wow. So there's a huge gap between the scientific evidence and how we practice medicine. And what we call scientific evidence based practice is miraculous. It's amazing, but it's way too narrow.

[Lewis Howes]

The school of greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. Fall always feels like the perfect time to travel. A chance to explore, reset, and spend time with family before the year wraps up. And Martha and I both travel often, especially with her family in Mexico and line spread across the US So we're always on the go a lot. And some of the best parts of traveling come from discovering new places, trying local foods and experiencing different cultures. But when people are away, their homes often just sit empty. Hosting on Airbnb can be a practical way to make use of that space and share what makes your community special with travelers passing through. From our experience, hosting has always been easy and straightforward, and whether you're on the road often or only once in a while, it can be a simple way to to earn a little extra while you're away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host life is unpredictable and sometimes we're hit with an unexpected purchase after another. And I've been there before. One day the AC in your car decides to stop working in the middle of the summer and the next day your cat got into something that they shouldn't have. So now, the same week you're stuck with a large bill from the car mechanic and another large bill from the vet, neither of which you accounted for in in this month's expenses. This is not a fun position to be in, but the US bank split World MasterCard can help make it a little easier in the moment. The Split Card is a new type of card that lets you pay later on every purchase. All purchases are automatically divided into three payments and placed into a payment plan.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

To be paid back over three months.

[Lewis Howes]

So if you're looking for additional flexibility, you can extend your plan to six or 12 months with equal monthly payments for a low monthly fee. So whether whether it's an unexpected vet bill or something more enjoyable like a last minute concert ticket, you can pay later on every purchase with the U.S. bank Split Card. Learn [e-mail] SplitCard the creditor and issuer.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And how great would it be if.

[Lewis Howes]

Just once something actually just went down in price? Well at Metro that's exactly what's happening. They've lowered their prices and are giving you a five year price guarantee on talk, text and data. One line now 20% lower. Family plans also lowered. Oh and you also get a free 5G phone, all with no ID required and no activation fees. Stop by your neighborhood Metro store, visit Metro Metro by t-mobile.com or call to find out about their amazing offers. Bring your number not available if currently at T Mobile or with Metro in.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

The past 180 days.

[Lewis Howes]

Guarantee covers monthly price of on network, Talk, text and 5G data for customers activating on an eligible plan. Exclusions apply [e-mail] what about something like arthritis?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

What would you say that's connected to?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Okay, that's been studied as well. So there was a great Canadian physician who actually was one of the founding physicians at Johns Hopkins Medical School. His name is William Osler. He said in 1880 that rheumatoid arthritis is caused by long term worry and stress.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Long term worry and stress?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. Now since then, in 1890. 1880 or 90. Wow. Yeah. He said this then, since then, multiple dozens of studies showing a relationship between trauma, stress and rheumatoid arthritis. Do you think the average rheumatologist knows anything about that? So that people go to. I know people. In my book the Mython Normal, I talk about people with Ms. Or arthritis who once they start recognizing that the flare ups of the disease actually manifest stresses in their lives, if they learn how to deal with those stresses. One woman told me that I have beautiful conversations with my rheumatoid arthritis. She says it was my best teacher because when every time it shows up, I know that I'm out of alignment with myself.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yes, you're out of somewhere. You need to have a conversation with yourself or get back in alignment. It's interesting, I was telling you this before off camera, that in a previous relationship that I was in, I was feeling a lot of chest pain and kind of tightness in my throat. And at one point, like I was starting to get like this. I don't know if it was a rash or some type of flare up, like below my belly button.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And I was like, what is. Like I've never had some type of like eczema or skin condition or something. It was like this kind of bright red flare up. And I was like, do I have a disease? Like, what is this? You know, and it's fascinating because I was telling you like the moment after many, many months of therapy and starting to integrate the lessons of healing and really feel it internally, I started to feel this sense of peace inside of me for the first time. I didn't feel trapped for the first time in myself, in my heart and in my body. And almost overnight this flare up was there for months. And I was like, oh, maybe I'm having, I had allergy tests and I was like, maybe it's peanuts, I don't know, all these different like foods that I'm eating. And I was like eliminating the foods and it's still there. It was almost overnight when I felt the peace inside of me. The flare ups went away and they haven't come back. And I was like, so if you.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Had come to me at that, Raj.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I would have asked you not, what are you eating?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

No, I wouldn't. Well, I might have. Those are good questions. But I also would have asked you, what is your body saying no to? It's rejecting that you're not saying no to.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

You know, now a flare up. If you take that word flare up, which is what you used.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, it's inflammation. Right. Something's inflamed.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Okay, right. But where else do you use what else flares up? You know what flares up is rage, anger. But you had anger that you weren't expressing.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Right.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Hence your body flares up. Yes, we know that suppressed emotions cause inflammation. So had you come to me, not had you come to me when I was out of medical school, because I wouldn't know anything about this. Nobody teaches you this stuff. But if you had come to me more recently, I would have asked you, well, Louis, what is your body saying no to that you're not saying no to? And that happens in two major areas, relationships and work, you know?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Interesting.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And so the body sends the signals. We can learn from it. And now the problem is that you go to the average physician, they're not.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Going to ask those things.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They're just going to try and collude with you to try and get rid of the symptom, not find the root, which is. That's okay. I mean, you don't want to sit there with a rash. It's fine. But also, let's look at the source of it.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And the source is always assumed to be something physical. Maybe they'll think of food, maybe they'll think of some toxin. They will not think of your emotions. Even though the mind and body are.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Inseparable, how much stronger do you think the emotional weight or trauma is than physical toxins in terms of affecting the body?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I can't make that assessment because I don't know what study would even compare the truth. I don't. I don't want to speak right off the cuff, but what I can tell you is that the emotions are really primary in most chronic conditions. And if you deal with them now in this society where there's all these toxins in the environment and junk in the food and all, who knows?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, everything.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

But. But what I know is that the emotions play a huge role and that that can have an impact on their illness. And the other thing I've. I don't know about you, when you Write books, but I write books as much for myself as for anybody else.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

100%, this show is for me.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, exactly. So I get to learn a lot when I'm writing. So one of the things I learned when I was writing A Myth of Normal was even how we think about disease. Like, people say I have eczema, or I have depression, or I have rheumatoid arthritis, or I have add. Now, there's an assumption there, isn't there? The assumption is, first of all, is that there's this thing called add, there's this thing called eczema, there's this thing called rheumatoid arthritis, or there's this thing called depression. Then there's an eye. And the I has that thing, but that thing has got its own separate, independent nature. But to say that I have this disease makes the assumption that disease got a separate life and nature of its own. It doesn't. What if we saw disease of all kinds, mental or physical or addiction, not as the things in themselves that have their own nature, but as processes that manifest our lives. And if I live my life differently, then I can have an impact on that process. So that process will change. That's exactly actually how it is. So for shorthand language, I understand it's helpful to say I have depression.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

How important is the words we choose?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

But if we buy into that language, we're actually missing the point because you don't have it. There's no it that's separate from you. And that means that if you change yourself. In fact, there's a friend of mine now, a recent friend, Dr. Jeff Rediger, who's a psychiatrist at Harvard, and last year he wrote a book called Cured the Science of Spontaneous Healing. That was the subtitle. No. He studied people who were terminally ill, documentedly. So they had no prognosis whatsoever. And then they get better.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So they were terminally ill. They were not supposed to survive.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They're not supposed to survive.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Supposed to die in a few years.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Or something, months or a week. I've talked to such people myself, and.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They'Ve cured their disease.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

There's a woman called, a psychologist called Kelly Turner, who studied the same thing. She wrote a book called Radical Remission. So all three of us have looked at these people. They did it in a research kind of way. I just did it impressionistically, you know. But I do check out the histories with people's doctors. We all know people who are supposed to have two months to live or six months to live. Either medical treatment has Failed or they refuse medical treatment. Then all of a sudden, the disease goes away. I think all three of us have found that what makes the biggest difference is, is that the person changes their relationship to themselves. Wow. And there's always trauma in the background. Now, Jeff and Kelly have documented people. They go on diets, they take supplements, they start meditating, they go into nature. They go into nature, the whole thing.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

All those things are great.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. And I think the. But I think Jeff and I agree, and I think Kelly would probably agree as well, that the biggest shift is in one's relationship with oneself. In other words, the life changes, the process changes. Now, I'm not promising everybody who's listening, you can cure yourself. I mean, you know, it's. No, this is not snake oil. I'm just talking about the importance of recognizing the impact of emotions and one's relationship to oneself on one's physiology. That's what I'm talking about.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

There's an external environment and then there's an internal environment. You know, our emotional environment.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

That is connected to our. I'm assuming our nervous system, our heart, our brain, the whole body and everything. And if our emotional environment is sick, then we're probably going to be physically sick as well.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, that's what you're. That's. That's what your story actually illustrates, isn't it? As soon as you create an internal environment, your physical issues abate. You know, by the way, speaking of, I just noticed I'm getting too excited here. This is. This is my passion. I mean, I. I just could go on about this forever, but I'm also noticing probably I'm getting a bit too heated here. And you're getting warm. I don't physically so much. I just notice I need to calm down a bit. I don't want to talk too fast.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

No, I like it. This is exciting for me. Well, I just feel like this is the. What you were just saying. Emotional repression is a major cause of physical illness. It may not be the only cause. There's other factors. But what we suppress usually comes to the surface in some way. Is that correct?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

That's the whole point.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And most of us. I'll speak for myself, I wasn't taught, and I think most of us are not taught on how to express the emotional traumas, the emotional pains, fears, insecurities, shames, guilt, where we're not taught the skills. It's one of the reasons why I started the school of greatness, because I was like, I wish I would have learned these skills in school.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You know, most of most people's parents are messed up in some way or have some issues and they aren't taught this. And so we're, you know, I grew up in a household that was very stressful and chaotic and there wasn't stability.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So did my kids, by the way.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Right, and you're like the guy.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Right, but I wasn't the guy then.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You weren't the guy.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So your kids had to, had some traumas that they had to face because of you and their parents.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

It's not even a matter of skills learning, it's deeper than that because you don't have to teach any one day old baby how to express their emotions, do you?

[Lewis Howes]

No.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

If they're sad, lonely, do you hear about it? If they're hungry or uncomfortable, do you hear about it? Of course you do. There's nothing to teach. You have to allow it and you have to give space for it and you have to hear it and respond to it. The problem with most parents is not that they don't teach their kids these skills, is that how they really live their lives? Because of their own traumas and because of the stresses in this society, they actually discourage kids.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Don't cry.

[Lewis Howes]

Stop crying.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, from what's natural?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Suck it up. Well, look, don't do this, don't do that.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Right. Well, you know, there's a very famous Canadian psychologist, I don't know if he's been on your program, but he says that an angry child should be made to sit by themselves until they come back to normal.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Interesting.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

In other words, anger in a two year old is not normal and we have to socialize it out of them. Now there's nothing more natural than an angry 2 year old.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

There's nothing more natural than an angry.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They get frustrated. You know, they want a cookie, they.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Get a cookie before they don't get what they want.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They want a cookie. You know, they want a cookie before dinner. And if you're a good parent, you're not going to give them a cookie before dinner. Right.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

When does you teach or when does someone learn how to not express anger? Every 10 minutes though.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, here's the point. If that 2 year old then starts screaming or throwing a tantrum, getting angry. If you say time out and you're not going to be with them now, you're presenting the child with a tragic dilemma. I can have my authentic emotion or I can have my relationship with my parent on whom my life depends. So I can be authentic or I can be attached in relationship, but I can't have both.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Interesting. Because if I'm not authentic or if I'm authentic, then I'm going to be alone, I'm going to be on timeout or whatever.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And to the child, the timeout is.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Life threatening because you might be alone forever, right?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. The child doesn't know that, you see? Yeah. So basically you're threatening the child with depriving them of the greatest need, which is the connection with you.

[Lewis Howes]

Love.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, the love. Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

But isn't there a point though if you're a 21 year old man now and you're, you know, screaming every 10 minutes because you don't get the cookie.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

But that's not the answer. Right. The answer is answer is when they're screaming to pick them up, you're angry at daddy, aren't you? You really wish you had that cookie.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Oh, I get it. You know, and then the child relaxes and the anger moves through them. You know what they learn? That anger is just something that moves through you. You can let go of it. If you don't see the child, don't accept the child's emotion, they're gonna have to repress it.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You have to stuff it.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

What's another word for stuffing? It's pushing down.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Trap it.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, well, pushing down. What's another word for pushing down? Depressing. Where does depression come from? It's not this disease. Depression comes from having had to push down your emotions. Literally you had to push down your emotions. In other words, why did you have to push down your emotions to stay connected to your parents? In other words, it was a coping mechanism. And what I'm saying is that a lot of illness, whether of the mind or the body or both, comes from coping mechanisms. There are normal coping mechanisms in response to an abnormal situation. It's not normal for a child to be banished from the peasants of the parent. If you look at indigenous people, they carry their kids everywhere. The kids are always with the parents. And the pilgrims, when they arrived in North America, they were very upset with how the natives reared their children. You know why? Because the indigenous people did not hit their kids.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They didn't hit their kids.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They didn't hit their kids. And the Christians couldn't understand this, why.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They didn't, you know, create obedience with them. Right?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So what do they do?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

They nourish them. And when you nourish a child, see, nature has got a natural agenda is that you should grow up to be a self regulated adult in connection with yourself and with other people. That's nature's agenda. It's like nature has an agenda for an acorn to become an oak tree. But an acorn doesn't spontaneously become an oak tree. It has to have the right conditions. So it's not a question of teaching the oak tree, the acorn to be an oak tree. Just give it the nourishment and the sunlight and the earth and irrigation that it needs its nature to become an oak tree. The nature of human beings is to become self regulated, socially responsible creatures. That's how we evolved. Given the right conditions, that will happen. So it's not a question of teaching all these things. Yeah, this is some teaching involved. Mostly it's the question of meeting children's needs, giving them the right conditions and then they will develop self regulation. They learn it because you're self regarded so they're watching you.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You're not reactive and explosive screaming, you.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Know, you realize, oh, I'm angry. Okay, I'm angry. But you're not screaming at the kid, you know. So in the right environment, these traits spontaneously evolve or develop in a human being. So our society is always about how do we teach these skills and no skills. Well, teaching is important, but more important is the child's spontaneous growth given the right environment. And what I'm saying about this toxic culture, we don't give our kids the right environment.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

The number, the statistic that 50% of marriages turn into divorce these days. And also probably I think when I had Esther Perel on, I was like, how many of the 50% that are married are actually happy? It's a very small percentage too.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, and so, so I've had a marriage that we've had a lot of unhappiness. Are we married to 53 years now?

[Lewis Howes]

53.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. We're very happy together now.

[Lewis Howes]

You are.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

But we took, took us a lot of work, a lot of commitment. But here's what I want to say. There's two ways you can tell if a marriage is unhappy. One is you can ask the parents. The other is you can measure the cortisol level of the children.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh wow.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Because the parents stresses affect the physiology of the child.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh man, my cortisol must have been off the charts. But I was.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, all of us children. Yeah, it would have been. And so in this society, and this is not the fault of individual parents, like it begins in the uterus actually already stresses on the pregnant woman will affect the physiology of the child. Really? Yeah, yeah. No, in this society, so many pregnant women are so stressed. In the States particularly, you're talking about.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

More emotional stress because there's physical stress of like the body's expanding and growing and aches and pains. But the emotional stress, I mean the.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Emotional stress of having to the nervous system perform on the job or being in a difficult relationship. In one of the chapters in the book I talk about, it begins with the diary of my wife who was writing it when she was pregnant with one of our children, about how unhappy she was. And she's talking to the infant saying, please don't take this stress personally. She wrote that and I quoted it in the Myth of Normal. And she knew what I didn't know. And she was unhappy because of our relationship.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

She was unhappy because of the relationship.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

She was unhappy because of what was going on in her relationship with me.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Being a workaholic doctor not being there, not being available emotionally.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly. And even blaming her for how I was feeling. So she's talking to this infant inside her. And that's how I opened one of the chapters. So already in the uterus, these stresses start happening. A lot of evidence for that scientifically. Brain scans, blood work, all kinds of stuff. Then there is labor, which in our society is very often mechanical and emotionally very difficult. And in the United States, 25% of women have to go back to work within two weeks of giving birth. Now, that infant is meant to be with the mother for at least nine months. I would say years, but at least nine months. That infant is abandoned at two weeks. That's how they experience it.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh, man.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Even if they're looked after by someone, someone else, but the mother, the infant needs the mother's body.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, that was. My mom was working pretty, probably pretty fast after each one of us were born. You know, had to go back to work and.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not blaming the women. Right. They have no choice. Yes, I'm saying, but this society puts stresses on women. It then doesn't support them through the pregnancy. Then it puts a lot, and only that. We didn't grow up in individual, isolated nuclear families, did we? We evolved in small band hunter gatherer groups where people supported each other, where children were with adults all day, were adults collaborated. They had to, otherwise they wouldn't have survived. So that's where our nature actually evolved. So when you get to society, which tells you that people are by nature selfish and aggressive and competitive, which isolates some others in separate homes where the community is more and more. You know, there's lots of, lots of work done by sociologists and others in the states about how communities are breaking down. There was that book Bowling Alone some years ago, 20 years ago now, about the breakdown of community so that people are not getting support and that means.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

They'Re stressed and the mothers are doing it all on their own.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly right.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

But they're also expecting the husband to work and also be at home as opposed to reaching out to peers or family or friends.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly. So it's a very unnatural culture. And no wonder so many kids are getting diagnosed and with ADHD or oppositional defiant disorder or depression. You know, there's an article in the New Yorker a few weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago, also in the New York Times, I think, about the rising rate of childhood and adolescent suicides in the U.S. it's mysterious. It's not mysterious. These kids are no longer having their developmental needs met. They feel alone and desperate and scared.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And the drug, drug use is on the rise and addiction and that's right.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

There's nothing mysterious about it. If you look at the cultural setting. It's only mysterious if we think we're dealing with isolated mental health issues or isolated physiological issues. But when you see the connections, nothing mysterious.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So what are the main, I guess mental health? Are they diseases or they're not considered a disease like depression, add, adhd, what are the main mental health symptoms out in the world right now?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Could you say? Yeah, so depression and anxiety are fast growing and they're major challenges. More and more kids are being diagnosed with adhd. More and more kids are being diagnosed with something called oppositional defiant disorder, which, what is that? Opposition? That's when a kid is defiant and oppositional and goes against adult values and adult expectations. But we think there's something wrong with the kid. Instead of looking at the context of what makes the kids die.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

The environment?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

No. Are these diseases? Well, you can talk about the missed diseases to some degree and certainly, you know, I've had depression and I've taken medication for it in my 40s and it really made a difference for me. You might call it a disease, but actually that's a shallow way of looking at it because actually what does it go back to? It goes back to being a one year old infant or being a three month old infant. In the book the Myth of Normal, the first chapter has a painting in it. The painting is by my wife, based on a photograph of me and my mother. This is Budapest, Hungary, 1944, and I'm three months of age and my mother in a photograph is wearing a yellow star that Jews had to wear. My father was away in forced labor and within two months her parents would be killed in Auschwitz. That was my first year of life.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh my gosh.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And the look on my face is full of terror. I was absorbing my mother's fear and.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

My mother's anxiety because she had terror in her face. And you're mimicking and she had it in her body. Body. You're connected to her eating ten times a day.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And you're feeling the stress.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

There's probably now no calm in her.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

There's no calm there. But she's already so stressed and she's just trying to make sure that we survive. She's not there to really receive my feelings. And then when I'm a year old or 11 months old, she hands me to a complete stranger in the street to save my life because she didn't think where we're staying I would survive for a Day and probably I wouldn't have.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Wow.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So I didn't see her for six weeks. Five or six weeks.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And you're one?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I was one then, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh my gosh.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And now what could I do as a one year old? I could do two things as an infant going through all that. First of all, how do I deal with all that stress? I tune out. I tune out. I become absent minded as an adaptive.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Mechanism, a coping mechanism.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly 55 years later, I'm diagnosed with ADHD, which is characterized by tuning out. Is it a disease? The heck it's a disease. It started as a coping mechanism. I'm also diagnosed with depression. Why? Because in an environment, I had to push my feelings down in order to not to burden my mother, who was already burdened enough.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Create more peace and warm.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So I took that on. So I pushed on my feelings. I depressed my feelings. Then I have this depression. So are they diseases? Well, you can talk about them that way. But I say they began as coping mechanisms. And I'll tell you another story. I'm 78 now, so six, seven years ago, I'm in San Francisco with a therapist and I've taken mushrooms. She works with mushrooms. And I worked with psychedelics and it's one of the things I write about. But this time I'm the patient, I'm the client. And I'm lying there on the mat under the influence of the psilocybin. And I know exactly who I am. I'm 71 years old. I'm a medical doctor, I'm a writer, I'm a speaker. I'm married to such, you know, my wife. Ray. This is a therapist. So I'm not like hallucinating. I know exactly where I am, but at the same time I'm experiencing myself as a one year old infant.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh my goodness.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And this therapist is my mom. Is my mom. And I start crying and I say, I'm so sorry I've made your life so difficult. Wow, that's my one year old self all of a sudden under the influence speaking up. I took it on that early that I'm responsible now. You talked about. Oh my gosh in our conversation before, you told me about how you were in this relationship and you couldn't leave it even long after you realized it wasn't right for you because you took on the responsibility of how the other person would feel if you let them down. I'm telling you that's your one year old speaking. That you took responsibility for the suffering of your parents and how you Mustn't let anybody down because it's your responsibility. We take this stuff on so early, without words, actually. They just become ingrained. And then we, then we live our lives out of it until something happens. As you did for you.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Your body rebelled, you have a breakdown or something happens, right? And you're like, you either keep breaking down or you. Wakes you up and say, okay, why is this happening? What is. What is off? What is out of alignment? What is, you know, where am I out of integrity, whatever it might be.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And I feel the challenge is I was like, I want to end this suffering. You know, I've repeated this pattern many times. I'm sick and tired of the suffering. I'll do whatever. You know, I think when you, for me, I was like, I've felt enough of this. I don't want it anymore. But it took so much courage to face these things for me. And I know other people have deeper traumas or different traumas, and it just seems so challenging.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I wouldn't go there. I would not compare your trauma to anybody else.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Well, we all have our unique traumas, right? Different experiences that we face. Why is it so challenging for people to face it and start addressing it? I was telling you, you know, I've been doing pretty intensive therapy for about a year and a half now, every two weeks.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Not because I feel like something's wrong with me anymore. I'm stressed more because I want to maintain a level of peace and I want to continue to maintain peace.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Good for you.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So once I realized and started healing, I didn't say I'm good.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I was like, I want to go to the next level of peace, love, you know, an environment of beauty inside of my emotions. But why is it so hard for so many people to face it and actually speak the shame, guilt, insecurity, you know, imperfection about them.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, I think in your own work you've touched upon very accurately on why it's so difficult. For one thing, if you just, just the words that you just use, peace and love and connection. If you had played that to your 20 year old self, how would he have responded?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

He'd been like, suck it up. Or he'd been like, what are you talking about? You're fine. Like, yeah, don't be a little wuss. Or, you know, just work harder, you know.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, but where would that have come from?

[Lewis Howes]

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[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Just my entire conditioning growing up from sports and yeah, you know, okay, so.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

That, so does that. So that's one of the factors is the conditioning in this culture. Okay. I, I also say it would have come from intense fear. Oh. Because if you'd actually, it's very fearful to look at all that pain inside oneself.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's terrifying.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, it's terrifying. So there's intense fear. So there's the conditioning, as you say. Then there's the, the fear. It really is fear. Painful, you know. You know, nobody wants to have pain, you know, but that's called growing pains. And the third factor is we all develop this personality now, the personality, we think that's us, but it's not us. Right. The personality is the traits that we took on to survive our childhoods along with some genuine traits. So the personality is kind of an amalgam of childhood coping mechanisms and Genuine qualities.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, some good stuff, but that's also coping. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I used to be like, I was a fun loving guy. I was like a kind, generous. But then when there was a trigger, like I was angry and, you know.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Defensive and guarded and things like that.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Or you talk about the various masks, the sexual mask, or the. Or the material mask, the aggressive mask. You know, when I started reading your chapter on the sexual mask, you wrote about some guy whose name I forget, but who's sort of the champion picking up women. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes for one split second. But what's that? It's having to prove to himself that he's lovable. Where does that come from? But we identify with it. So we think we're the personality. I'm this sexually attractive guy, or I'm this aggressive guy. I'm this material guy who's going to make it in the world, you know, and so we think that we are a personality. So it comes from, I say, three sources. One is the conditioning, the other is the fear for the pain. And thirdly, the identification with the personality. We think that's who we are and we don't know who would be without it. All of which is all based on trauma.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, it's the identity, you know, building this identity that you know. And I talk about how the identity supported you to accomplishing certain things or protecting you from certain things by having this identity. But it's also not serving us to hold on to that identity if we want the next level of peace and freedom.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So it's. But it's so hard to kill an identity. It's like you've had this thing for decades maybe, and you've got to let go of this thing.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I wouldn't even talk about killing. I mean, in my healing chapters of this book, I talk about, let's make friends with it. Like, for example, I have to, by the way, I have to be honest. I said that I wouldn't be in this guy's shoes for a minute. That's not true. Part of me was envying him. Right. You know, Even here I'm 78 and married 53 years. But I read about this guy who slept with all these women. Why couldn't I be that guy? You know, I don't want to go there, and I wouldn't. I've long ago chosen not to. But. But there's still something that. Who doesn't want to be wanted that much?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You know, something with the ego or the desire. Yeah.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, so, but if we didn't kill those parts but made friends with them, if somebody came to me with that kind of pattern of I'm that sexual guy, but they don't want to, but they realize that it's not. They might feel high for a moment, like an idiot. Will.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's not fulfilling.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

It's not fulfilling. I wouldn't say kill that part of you. I'd say, let's make friends with it. Let's find out what it's really trying to do for you. What it's trying to do for you is trying to make you feel wanted, making you feel valuable, making you feel desirable, making you feel loved, temporarily making you feel powerful, what happened to you that you don't feel lovable, that you don't feel desirable, that you don't feel powerful. You know, in other words, it's not a matter of getting rid of these parts or these aspects of ourselves. It's a question of actually getting to know them. And they all began as coping mechanisms. That man that you describe in your book, I guarantee, is a highly traumatized human being.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So when we start to ask ourselves, this question that you're asking is what happened to you? Or when, you know, when did you feel not powerful or not lovable or not wanted? Yeah, and let's say we're able to. Someone watching or listening is able to assess themselves and actually be present, really reflect on the painful moments of the past, which a lot of people aren't even willing to talk about it to themselves. Right?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

That's right.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

For 25 years, I had a memory of being sexually abused and thought about it almost every day, like for. For a moment, you know, it come, you know, at least weekly, maybe not every day. But it was like a memory. Yeah, that's there, you know, But I never told anyone for 25 years because it was so shameful and I didn't want to be, you know, made fun of or all these things. And so someone's able to self assess and say, okay, I had this pain, this trauma I felt not powerful or whatever it might be. What's the next step for them once they start to journal about it and be aware of it and they're like, I really want to heal, you know, what would be that next step in the process?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, I mean, it's not that I can prescribe, but sure, but it should be for everybody. And there's many different ways of working. But one of the things I would address, first of all, is the shame. Like one of the impacts of Trauma is shame because children are narcissists by nature. When I say narcissist, I don't mean in a pathological, negative sense. I mean they think it's all about them.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

The world just revolves around me.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly. So if bad things are happening to me, it must be. It must be a bad person. You know, number one. Number two, I didn't fight back.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I couldn't defend myself.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And so that makes me weak. And, you know, and so I'm ashamed of that now. Actually, when you look at it, the not fighting back is nature's coping mechanism. Part of your nervous system just freezes. Because if you fought back, what would happen?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Just depends what age you are.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

No, but as a young child, if.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You fight back, on.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Against the sexual abuser.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Oh, right.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

What would happen to you?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Who knows? I mean, it could have been even worse.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And were you in a position to run? No. No. So the part of your nervous system that would have you fight or run away gets inactivated.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's protecting yourself.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

You're protecting yourself. And the part of the nervous system that freezes, you just be still. You get through this.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Wait till it passes.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. That takes over. So it's actually what you're ashamed about is actually the brilliance of your nervous system that protected you, but you're beating.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yourself up in retrospect, saying, I, I should have ran, I should have fought back, I should have done this.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

That's the first point, man. The second point is, if I can ask you, how old were you when this happened to you, and how long did it go on for?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's probably 10, 15 minutes.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah. No, but it was only one time.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

One time.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Okay. Who did you speak to about it?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

No one.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Okay. No, you don't have kids yet. No. But if you did have a child 5 years old, and this happened to, who would you want them to speak to? Me. Yeah. Now, if you found out that this happened to your child and your child never told you, how would you explain that?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

How would I explain it to.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

How would you explain to yourself why my child is not talking to me about this terrible thing that happened?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I would explain it by saying, it's something I'm not doing. I'm not creating a safe environment to allow this child to speak up.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And that was your primary trauma. Yeah. So the sexual abuse is the secondary trauma. As a matter of fact, the abuser. Like, you were bullied in school, you said, and the bullies can always sense the vulnerability.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

The bullies have, like, a weakness in you. They have a laser, like there's an insecure, weak person.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Which by the way, is speaks to their own trauma. But they have laser like the physicians who abuse their patients, the spiritual leaders who do that to their followers. They see a weakness, they laser like they sense it and that's who they pick on. And the bullies do the same thing. Now that weakness, as we call it, comes from not having the solid support and protection and confidence and security in your family of origin. So that's the primary trauma. That's the first thing that happened.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, I mean, that's the case for sure.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So to answer your question then, if somebody comes to me with those issues. Well, first of all, if somebody realizes those things, I'd say don't try and do this on your own.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's so hard.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Talk to somebody.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's so hard.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, well, look, people with addictions, at least they have the 12 step groups where they can actually talk about it. And people ideally will not judge them.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It's a safe space to.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Or you might have friends, or you might reach out to a professional, or you might have an intimate partner. That relationship is close enough where you can actually share this, but you have to bring it out of you. By the way, this just reminds me, this is one of the ancient gospels written around the same time as the other gospels in the Gospel of Thomas, in which Jesus says that what you shall bring out of you will save you, and what you don't bring out of yourself will doom you. He says something like that.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Right, right.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

He was a supreme psychologist.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Wow.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

And so you got to bring it up. Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

What you suppress becomes more depressed. Right. It's like.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's got to start with that somewhere.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You've got to bring it out. If and if someone has a. What if they say, well, it wasn't that big of a deal. This thing that happened back in the day. I was a kid and it only happened a few times. Whether it's sexual abuse or okay, someone's screaming at you, or you were neglected or put in the corner, you know.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I hear that all the time.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

It wasn't that big of a deal.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I hear all the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I shouldn't be that concerned about it. It was five, who cares? You know, it was like, what do we eat?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Okay, then that's a very simple way to answer that.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Then why are we so messed up right now?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

No, no, no, no, no, not at all. If a 5 year old kid came to you and you were the uncle, Uncle Lewis, this guy did such and Such to me, and I'm really scared and hurt. Would you say to them, oh, no big deal, no. Think of all the other kids that worse things have happened to. Would you say that? Why wouldn't you say that?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Because I'd want to be there for my nephew and make sure he felt supported and seen him love and a.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Little bit of the impact if, if you did say that.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I feel like it'd probably affect him for a long time if that was a pattern of. Yeah, that was the response that he got.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

But you see, that's what you're saying to yourself when you say that it's no big deal. You're saying to the five year old that was hurt, it doesn't matter. In other words, there's no self compassion there.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Right.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

What you would never say to anybody else, you're saying to yourself. And one of the impacts of trauma is lack of self compassion. And again, if I may mention my book, the Myth of Normal, I talk about that, about how this idea of self compassion and I see it all the time. And so when somebody says to me, no big deal, you know, I say, okay, take any other child in your position, plug them into that situation and tell them it's no big deal. And of course I wouldn't, but people.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Do, they do say these things to their kids or to their, right, their nephews or nieces. They're saying like, ah, you'll be all right. You know, and I think it's because they don't have the emotional courage to, to handle the, the wide range of emotions because they probably suppress the emotions.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I mean that's the whole point.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Right.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Is that they're, they're not, they're not comfortable with the child's pain.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Because I'm crying, they're like, I can't handle it.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Right. They can't handle it. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You know, my dad used to be like, stop crying. You know, just.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, stop.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

You know, there was no like hugging and like he had a lot of love and affection in other ways, but he couldn't handle the crying and the, the emotions.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, the emotion.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, one of the, in the book I talk about the essential needs of children and one of them is that they're given the freedom to feel all their emotions, particularly sadness and grief and pain, also joy and everything else. But I don't know if you're comfortable talking about this, but what do you know about your dad's childhood?

[Lewis Howes]

Oh man.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, it was messed up too.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So this goes on from Generations.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah. And I feel Like, a lot of people listening or watching this can relate and say, you know, I don't think anyone's like, I had the perfect parents. Right. There's some that maybe said, man, I had a great childhood and my parents did amazing. But I would say probably a majority of people had something where they didn't feel emotionally seen or accepted by their parents or some type of challenge. And they probably would all say, well, yeah, their parents, you know, had struggle from the war, from this or from the Depression, and. And their parents suffered. And it was all about survival. It wasn't about thriving.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

So how do we break, I guess, the generational trauma.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And not let it pass down to our children.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

So not being seen is a major source of trauma.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Just not being seen in general.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Just not being seen for who you.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Are, not being accepted for your abuses.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Expect it to be different than who you actually are. You know, it's a major trauma for people in society and it's very common.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

And how does someone who maybe is living in a stressed environment, whether it be their home or their city or their culture, political, you know, whatever it might be, they are more suppressed than others. How can they support themselves to getting out of a stressed environment so that they can be more of a baseline to have the ability to thrive and flourish emotionally?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

You know, something as a privileged Caucasian identified male with economic freedom. And I'm not in a position to say to somebody, these are larger political questions, these people. Society has to change and people have to work to change society. It's a question of. At some point, it becomes a question of advocacy and activism and joining with others. I don't want to preach to somebody else above that. My job is, to what extent is to support and help, but not to provide some kind of.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

But if society, let's say society, won't change for a period of time for these individuals, for certain individuals who are feeling overstressed, what can they do as an individual? Whether they get support externally or not? What could they start to do? Anything else besides, I mean, we've covered a lot that they can start to do and they get your. They can get your book, that's for sure.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Well, again, you know, I'm not sure I can fully answer that, but I can. I can give examples. So the New Yorker a couple years ago, within the last two or three years, had an article about an American black man who was jailed for decades and kept in solitary confinement for decades.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Was it Shaka Senghor?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

I don't remember the name it could be.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

I interviewed this guy who was in solitary confinement for decades, but yeah, well.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Maybe the same man.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Wrote a best selling book and was on Oprah and it might have been the same guy, but good.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

All right, well my point is that fair enough. My point is that he wasn't destroyed by it, right?

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

He started to heal in the prison.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

He found the inner strength somehow so that it's not for me to tell. I don't know if I could stand it for one day, nevermind for four decades or three decades. I know that's crazy, but that just shows you that the strength, the capacity to heal and to hold on to oneself and to find oneself is actually inherent in all of us.

[Guest/Interviewer (possibly Lewis Howes or a co-host)]

Final question for you. What's your definition of greatness?

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

You don't make it easy a guy, do you? I gotta challenge you. It's a willingness to find your best qualities and to express them in the world. That's what I see as greatness.

[Lewis Howes]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the Description Description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening. Then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera.

[Lewis Howes]

They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Dr. Gabor Maté]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts at Capella University.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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