Why You're Afraid to Share (And What It's Costing You) | Leslie John

Summary

Podcast Summary: The School of Greatness

Episode: Why You're Afraid to Share (And What It's Costing You) with Leslie John
Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Leslie John, Harvard Business School Professor and Author
Date: February 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the fundamental role of sharing—especially emotional sharing—in relationships of all kinds. Lewis Howes interviews Leslie John, author and Harvard Business School professor, about the risks and costs of "undersharing," and why many people are afraid to reveal their authentic feelings. Drawing from her research, personal experiences, and expertise in communication, Leslie argues that most people worry excessively about oversharing (TMI), when in fact, sharing too little is a more pervasive problem. Together, they examine how vulnerability can enrich relationships, how to break out of the habit of emotional suppression, and offer actionable advice for healthier, more connected lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Danger of Mind Reading Expectations

• Main Point: Relationships suffer not from dramatic breaches, but from a gradual drifting apart—which is often due to partners making inaccurate assumptions about each other's thoughts and feelings.
• Notable Study: Couples married an average of 12 years were brought into a lab; when asked to predict their spouse’s emotions, they were wrong 80% of the time. ([02:16], [06:24])
• Mind Reading Expectations: Many believe their partners should "just know" what they’re feeling, leading to disappointment and resentment when those needs go unspoken and unmet. ([02:48], [06:56])
• Personal Accountability: Self-awareness is the key to overcoming mind reading expectations. Once you realize you possess them and assess yourself, active communication becomes much easier. ([07:00])

Quote:
"What I learned about in relationships...it's not usually some dramatic affair...they more often break down because of a slow distancing...because if you think you know your partner better than you actually do, then you assume you know, you stop asking, you assume they know you, you stop sharing. And that's of course where the problem begins."
— Leslie John [04:00]

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Undersharing vs. Oversharing: Why TMI Is Overrated

• Main Point: People worry too much about sharing Too Much Information (TMI), when "Too Little Information" (TLI) is the root of most relational disconnects. ([04:00])
• Emotional Illiteracy: Many people lack vocabulary and awareness around their emotions, stemming from childhood norms of minimizing or ignoring feelings. This impedes effective communication and connection. ([09:36])
• EQ Over IQ: Leslie and Lewis both highlight emotional intelligence (EQ) as more critical than cognitive intelligence (IQ) for relationship success, a conclusion reached through research and personal experience. ([11:16], [18:22], [19:28])

Quote:
"EQ is where it's at. IQ is great, but if I could choose one or the other, hands down, I would choose EQ. And I wouldn’t have said that 10 years ago."
— Leslie John [11:17]

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The Impact of Not Sharing Your Truth

• Self-Respect and Wellbeing: Consistently holding back emotions corrodes self-esteem and perpetuates disconnection—not just in romantic relationships, but with family and friends as well. ([46:04])
• Personal Example: Leslie recounts the story of not confronting her mother for over a decade about omitted truths, only to eventually have a cathartic conversation that deepened their bond. ([41:09]-[45:46])

Quote:
"The stuffing of the emotion, it doesn't honor yourself. It’s in disservice to yourself...But on the other end, like I had that...most awkward conversation with my mom, and we are closer than ever."
— Leslie John [46:15]

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Reciprocity and Liking: How Sharing Builds Trust

• The Dance of Sharing: Healthy relationships evolve through reciprocal disclosure—one person shares, the other responds in kind, fostering trust and intimacy. ([14:54], [83:41])
• Notable Insight: Disclosing hopes, dreams, and preferences activates pleasure centers in the brain, making sharing itself enjoyable and relationship-building. ([14:54])

Quote:
"When you ask people questions, they get to disclose to you...revealing your hopes and dreams, your preferences, it actually activates the pleasure centers of the brain."
— Leslie John [14:54]

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Setting Boundaries and Agreements

• Learning to Say No: Lewis discusses how he evolved from being a people-pleaser and over-giver to creating healthy boundaries for himself. ([14:35])
• Relationship Agreements: Lewis shares the unique agreement he made with his now-wife to foster appreciation and minimize resentment: any grievance must be preceded by an expression of appreciation. ([53:40])

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The Jar Exercise: The Invisible Weight of "Unsaid" Things

• Demonstration: Leslie walks through a typical day, physically separating "said" versus "unsaid" thoughts and feelings, illustrating how much more we leave unspoken. Most of these unshared thoughts are emotional in nature. ([59:21]-[65:38])

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The Risks of Oversharing

• Context Matters: While under sharing is common, context is crucial—oversharing at the wrong time (e.g., with a boss before a big presentation) or in the wrong dynamic can backfire or undermine trust. ([67:11]-[68:19])
• Disclosure Flexibility: The healthiest communicators are able to flex between openness and guardedness, depending on the situation. ([68:19])

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Gender, Socialization, and Emotional Masking

• Boys and Emotional Expression: By second grade, boys have already learned to suppress emotional expression, associated with stoicism and masculinity—an observation backed by research. ([71:49])
• Breaking the Cycle: Lewis shares his journey of unlearning emotional suppression and the transformative power of vulnerability—especially for men. ([73:12])

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The Power of Revealing—and the Price of Regret

• Regret Studies: Most life regrets center on things left unsaid or undone; sharing feelings is high among them. ([79:18])
• Lead by Example: To encourage a reserved partner to open up, lead by proactively sharing your feelings—a powerful invitation for reciprocal vulnerability. ([83:41])

Quote:
"76% of regrets on average are things you didn't do...Number three: I wish I had shared my feelings more."
— Leslie John [79:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Marriage, Self-Knowledge, and Emotional Growth

• "I did not have the emotional understanding of myself that I do now...I'm a recovering emotional illiterate." — Leslie John [09:36]
• "I learned something that really, really helped me...If I believe what I'm writing, I gotta do this." — Leslie John, recounting her decision to confront her mother [43:05]

On Feedback and Workplace Communication

• "Is it important to give difficult feedback to people in your life? Yes, 100%. It's a gift." — Leslie John [48:08]
• "The sandwich [feedback method] works...it's starting with the positive." — Leslie John [49:54]

Actionable Tips

• Don’t assume your partner (or boss, or friend) knows what you’re feeling—name it.
• Practice the "dance of reciprocity" in sharing, especially with more reserved people.
• Treat silence as a choice; recognize each moment you stay silent, you’re actively shaping your relationships.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Mind Reading in Relationships: [02:16], [06:24], [27:34]
• EQ vs. IQ: [11:16], [18:22], [19:28], [27:46]
• Leslie's Divorce & Emotional Evolution: [09:16], [33:20], [34:24]
• Setting Boundaries/Relationship Agreements: [14:35], [53:40]
• Unsaid vs. Said Exercise: [59:21]-[65:38]
• Oversharing, Context & Flexibility: [65:38]-[68:19]
• Regret & Sharing Feelings: [79:18]

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Three Truths (Lightning Round) ([84:45])

1. Fear of TMI is Overblown: The bigger problem is actually TLI—Too Little Information.
2. Silence Is a Choice: Recognizing that not sharing is an active decision empowers us.
3. Skill of Revealing: Revealing wisely is a practice; stretch yourself to grow this skill and forgive mistakes along the way.
   (Paraphrased; see [85:23])

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Definition of Greatness ([87:53])

"Feeling so comfortable in your own skin and knowing yourself so much that you can get the things in life that you care about and that your loved ones care about." — Leslie John

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Final Takeaways

• Undersharing is a silent epidemic: Most relational pain comes from what’s left unsaid, not from saying too much.
• Communicate your needs—don’t expect mind-reading: Even in long-term relationships, people are remarkably bad at guessing what their partners feel.
• Vulnerability is reciprocal and rewarding: Leading with openness fosters trust, connection, and even pleasure in relationships.
• Context is king: Wise revealing requires reading the room, assessing timing, and aiming for reciprocal exchanges.

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For more, check out Leslie John's book, "Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing," or visit ProfLeslieJohn.com.

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This summary captures the critical themes, actionable wisdom, and memorable stories of the episode—designed for listeners (and potential readers) who want practical, research-backed guidance on authentic connection.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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[Leslie John]

In long term relationships, why do they fall apart? Well, there was a study that looked at people who have loved each other for years and years and years. They brought the couples into the lab and they got each person to try to guess what their spouse was thinking and feeling. And they were wrong 80% of the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Really. She's a Harvard Business School professor, award winning researcher and author who has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Economist where she teaches the art and science of communication. Leslie, thank you so much for Being here.

[Leslie John]

Another thing that really compounds the issue here is a concept called mind reading expectations. It's really insidious because those of us who have mind reading expectations, we implicit, implicitly believe that our partners should just know how we feel. They should just know that we had a bad day and that we're upset just by like the way we look or something. When they don't respond, then we get upset when if we had just said something, I had a shitty day, I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right.

[Lewis Howes]

What happens to a person inside of them when they decide not to share what's really going on when those things start to pile up?

[Leslie John]

Well, okay, so the first foreign.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm excited because you've been studying the art of undersharing and oversharing and the power of why we should be more vulnerable in our sharing and share more versus being silent. And when we are silent in relationships, in relationships with people in our lives, it actually can hurt us. And I'm curious, why does it hurt us being silent in relationships under sharing or not being vulnerable versus oversharing in relationships.

[Leslie John]

Right, right, right. So there is such a thing as oversharing. Like TMI is alive and well. But again and again I found that the greater issue is under sharing, we worry way too much about TMI and we don't worry enough about tli. Too little information. And where this so relationships is, it plays out in all domains of life. But in relationships, one of the things we see, it's really sneaky because when you say like share more, open up. We're like, yeah, yeah, share, open up. It sounds great, right? But as I wrote the book, the writing the book itself for me was amazing therapy. I love my therapist, but like it was it, it changed me. And one of the ways it really changed me was what I learned about in relationships. So in long term relationships, why do they fall apart? Well, they, it's not usually some dramatic affair. I mean that can happen and it's horrible. But they more often they break down because of a slow distancing. It's kind of like you start off, you know the old analogy, you've got your two boats and you're like a degree off. And so at the beginning and then, and then if you never course correct, you just end up, you do nothing.

[Lewis Howes]

Is this in friendships, co worker relationships or intimate relationships?

[Leslie John]

It is, I mean all relationships. But I would say particularly romantic relationships. And here's the reason. So what happens is when we are in a long term romantic relationship, we do know the Person better with time, right? The longer you've been with someone, the more you know their values, their traits. The problem though is that our confidence that we know them outmatches, outpaces our actual knowledge. And that's where the problem begins, right? Because if you think you know your partner better than you actually do, then you assume you know, you stop asking, you do the same, you assume they know you, you stop sharing. And that's of course where the problem begins. Because if you stop sharing, you just stop learning about each other and then, then you get all these kind of little, little spats that emerge.

[Lewis Howes]

And so you need to keep oversharing. The longer you're in a relationship, you

[Leslie John]

need to keep asking, keep answering. And here, to make it more concrete, when there was a study that looked at people who have been loved each other for years and years and years. So like the average age, the average length of marriage was like 12 years. And what they did was they brought the couples into the lab and they got to try to guess what the other person was, what their spouse was thinking and feeling. And they were wrong 80% of the time.

[Lewis Howes]

Really.

[Leslie John]

These are people who have loved each other for 12 years. Like neither of, neither of my marriages has last, has been that long yet, you know, and like, and, and they just, and, but they, they thought they knew, right? And so another thing that really compounds the issue here is a concept called mind reading expectations, which is as it sounds, I mean it sounds crazy. It's like, of course you can't read my mind when you say it out loud like that. However, it's really insidious because those of us who have mind reading expectations, we implicitly believe that our partners should just know how we feel. They should just know that we had a bad day and that we're upset just by like the way we look or something. And so then what? Because our partner can't read our mind when they don't respond, then we get upset and then, then we do the stonewalling, right? So then it's just this compounding of errors when if we had just said something, I had a shitty day, I'm exhausted, can I have a hug? Right. We express our needs. And so the people, that the people have a high mind reading expectations, it's actually a trait. Interestingly, it's pretty stable. Some are high, some are low, I'm high. So the, the, the people who have the, they, it's associated with lower relationship quality, lower length of relationships. But there's hope because self awareness, right? There's Actually, a scale. I have one on my website that you can assess yourself. I am very high on it. But once I learned that, and there are questions like, my partner should just know what I'm thinking. My partner should respond without me having to say anything. And once those items were presented to me so starkly and I filled it out, it said, you have very high mind reading expectations. I changed a lot. I realized I need to say what feels like over communicating is just communicating.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Leslie John]

And, and, and my marriage is like, it was already good. Second marriage. I had to start a marriage. So the second one is like not making the same mistakes. And, and it's just gotten so much richer.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Okay. So you've been married twice. Yep. You're still married.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But how long were you married for the first marriage?

[Leslie John]

Five years.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay. And how old were you when you got married?

[Leslie John]

28.

[Lewis Howes]

28, five years. So divorced around 33, I guess, right?

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Why did that marriage end? Based on the research you've done in your book?

[Leslie John]

Y.

[Lewis Howes]

Now that you have wisdom, I'm sure it's a collection of things. This isn't a therapy session. But why do you feel like, based on this conversation and this research.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What would you have done differently? Even if it was still the wrong match or there wasn't the right fit or whatever. I mean, maybe some other stuff happened. But what would you have done differently before getting married to see if it was the right thing?

[Leslie John]

Definitely. I mean, looking back. Well, number one is I was too young, 28. I did not have the emotional understanding of myself that I do now. A lot of people do when they're that age, but I did not. Emotions. I love my family. And you're like, you're starting a sentence to buff them up. I did have a happy childhood, but we did not talk about feelings or emotions, really. So I, I, I never. I remember when I was going through a divorce, the divorce in my 30s. And my therapist said, how do you feel? And I started listing cognitions, like thoughts. And he's like, those aren't feelings. And I'm like, well, okay, I'm sad. He's like, can you be more specific? Finally, he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which helps you. It's in my book. It helps you realize the multiplicity of emotions, and it helps you understand yourself better. So, so, so that's kind of where, like, why I say I was, I was too young emotionally.

[Lewis Howes]

So you didn't feel emotions or you blocked the emotions?

[Leslie John]

I thought that was a joke. Sorry. I did Feel emotions. Everybody has emotions.

[Lewis Howes]

You couldn't. You couldn't communicate.

[Leslie John]

I couldn't communicate. I didn't understand my emotions. I didn't honor my emotions. I didn't validate them. If I was feeling something uncomfortable, I'd be like, I just dismiss and not even engage with them. I didn't have an emotional vocabulary. I didn't know the differences between, like, disappointment, frustration, anger, sadness. Like, it was all, like, bad, good. Right. Like, I'm a recovering emotional illiterate. And so that. That didn't help matters. I mean, so I guess the main reason is me in that, like, these. I would never. He's a wonderful person, but I never. I never should have married him.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Leslie John]

And I think that part of this emotional understanding of oneself, like, I'm a huge eq, is, like, where it's at. IQ is great. But says Harvard professor, truly, like, EQ is if I could choose one or the other, hands down, I would choose EQ. And I wouldn't have said that 10 years ago.

[Lewis Howes]

Really. It's so interesting because most of my childhood, I probably had the lowest IQ

[Leslie John]

of everyone, but the highest eq.

[Lewis Howes]

Well, I learned through suffering and feeling like I was so stupid. When I was in the bottom of my class, all through, like, elementary school, high school, college, I was in the bottom because they would great. They would rank us.

[Leslie John]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lewis Howes]

So I would always see myself in the bottom four. So it just reconfirmed. Oh, I'm stupid, right? I don't. You know, I can't figure this out. No matter how hard I tried, it was like, I'm not gonna be smart. But then what I would do is I would just observe people all day long and study people's behaviors and watch. Why are they reacting that way? And I would just sit there and people watch. All day in school, all day out of school, I would just sit there and, you know, not like a creeper, but I would just be, like, observing people all day long. And I was constantly reflecting on why did they respond this way?

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And when I asked this question, why did they do this with their face? Why did they lean in? Why do they. And so I became a really good observer and a really good listener. And so it's interesting because it's talking about the power of oversharing and revealing yourself. But I became a really good listener and just kept following up with, tell me more, tell me more. Why this, why that. And by doing that, I was able to build great relationships with people and understand where people were coming from and I think when you understand more where people are coming from, they feel connected. And when you feel connected, you feel safe. You like people more, you want to hang out with them more, and you create opportunities with each other, whether it be in friendship or, or whatever it might be. And so it's probably why I got into this show, because I'm asking questions.

[Leslie John]

So let me ask you this. Do you ever find, did you find. Do you find this pattern of be honest, people liking seeming to like you more than you like them? Like people wanting to hang out with you more than.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes, this season of life, for sure. I mean, for many years, when I didn't have friends and when I didn't have, you know, a business, when I was kind of getting into the, the working force or the business world. In order to create opportunities for yourself, you need to know lots of people. You know, if you're starting a business, you need to get customers and clients. You need to put yourself out there and meet everyone essentially that you can and offer services and help and, you know, free things to people to get in the door. Then once you get clients or you have a business or whatever it might be, I realized I was giving too much to too many people and I had no energy for me. And I didn't feel like I was receiving in return from enough people. So I became an over giver, over sharer, over people pleaser because I wanted everyone to like me and I wanted to feel safe emotionally. And then it took the last like seven years, like a swing of me learning how to create better boundaries, learning how to heal deeper, to not feel like I need everyone to like me or constantly give to everyone.

[Leslie John]

That's so important realization.

[Lewis Howes]

And by doing that, by creating these boundaries, it kind of, you know, as I've reclaimed that energy and I've put it into the people that I care about the most. And it doesn't mean I don't speak to people if they reach out or whatever, but it's like I've learned to say no a lot more than when I was, you know, my 20s and early 30s.

[Leslie John]

Because one of the ways that I think of that saying no is what are you saying yes to? Like, when I say no to meeting with a new doctoral student at first five o' clock at night, I'm saying yes to playing with my kids at 500%, right? And so once I thought about, it's like so empowering thinking of that. The reason I asked that question about the potential asymmetry of liking or connectedness is that you Naturally, I mean, you do this now for your job, but from a young age, it sounds like you were really curious and you were asking questions. And when you ask people questions, they get to disclose to you. And when people reveal to you, people love revealing. Like, it turns out I know some people might be like, what? I don't like revealing. You do like revealing in certain contexts. I will tell you data, but you're expressing interest in them and you're giving them attention and they get to share. And revealing. I'm not talking about tricky conversation stuff, but revealing your hopes and dreams, your preferences, it actually activates the pleasure centers of the brain. So it literally is enjoyable. And that fosters trust. And so I was thinking of a. A funny situation where one of the ways things that this can kind of go wrong, where we see asymmetries of sharing. So a very healthy sharing to build relationships, friendships, colleagueships, romantic relationships, is the dance of reciprocity. I reveal something, you reciprocate, maybe raise the ante a bit. And it's this beautiful unfolding, gradual escalation together. Sometimes it goes awry for various reasons. One of the funny ways it can go awry. Well, funny, because I'm going to tell a story at my expense. You're welcome. Is when you. So if someone reveals a lot to you and you don't reveal to them, you. Sometimes one can feel like they. Let me say it differently. Parasocial relationships. These are so brutal for this. So Jerry Seinfeld. I love Jerry Seinfeld. I've watched every episode of Seinfeld. I feel like he knows me because we mistake the. The fact that I know a lot about him from, well, his. His professional perspective. And he doesn't. But he doesn't know anything about me. But I feel like we're friends. And so one time when I was at a theater with my husband, I. At the intermission, I saw Jerry first names and his wife. And I just impulsively walked up to him. I'm like, hey, Jerry, we're old friends.

[Lewis Howes]

You had no clue who you are.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. He's like. And he obviously I was like, oh, my God. I immediately regret this decision because then I suddenly took his perspective that, oh, wow, like, this is some crazy stranger lady. It must happen to him all the time. And so he has a thing. What he does is he says, good to see you. Good to see you. And he just keeps walking, like as fast as you could walk without it calling it running. And so there's kind of some wonky things that can Happen sometimes. But what I wanted to the when we were talking about you had started with the like getting married. What happened? And I think it speaks to this important point about emotional intelligence and how like you growing up, you really understood people because you observed and you're curious and you got better communication skills.

[Lewis Howes]

I think I understood people because I felt very deeply and I didn't have any friends and I felt very incapable of being smart based on my results in school.

[Leslie John]

Right, right.

[Lewis Howes]

So since I felt deeply and I allowed myself to be in a suffering state internally, constantly.

[Leslie John]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, what's wrong with me? Why am I here? What's the point of this life? Kind of like this ruminating thought and feeling of like, I suck, I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'll never be as good as anyone in my class, let alone in the world. What's the point of being alive? This type of rumination. And I think because of that, I eventually got the courage to say, okay, let me reflect on why am I feeling this? And let me try to learn. If I can't learn in school, let me find ways to learn outside of school. And that's human dynamics, human behavior. And why do people think and feel and act and speak and walk and talk the way they do? Let me just watch them in a reserve and try to learn from human dynamics and behavior. And so as a, I guess as a Harvard Business professor, what I'm hearing you say is that you think EQ is way more valuable than IQ completely. But most people in the world are trying to become smarter at something and accomplish more degrees and more credibility when that's not the answer.

[Leslie John]

I know I'm not doing much for our sales of our degrees. I know. But we have like increasingly courses that are like the courses that are really popular for the executives are Leadership Communication. But it's so frustrating because the MBAs, like the, the lowest ranked course is often the leadership course. And then they come as alumni and they're like, I wish I paid attention. Because everything is psychology, everything is communication.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Leslie John]

Oh, I love that question. Love, love.

[Lewis Howes]

If you're really smart, intelligent, you have a high iq, if you have a low eq, should you get married?

[Leslie John]

This is tricky because I do think you need to understand yourself to get married. You need to understand what you want and that is eqe, right? But I also think that so I

[Lewis Howes]

because you essentially said that you had high IQ below eq.

[Leslie John]

Right, Right. And I should not have gotten married before you should not have gotten married.

[Lewis Howes]

You didn't know yourself emotion.

[Leslie John]

Correct, Correct.

[Lewis Howes]

But you probably knew on paper or analytically what you wanted. I want to be married. I want to have safety. I want a home. I want a guy who's got this job or looks a certain way. So analytically and on paper you knew what you wanted.

[Leslie John]

Yes, yes. But I think even that's still, that's analytical, but it's also superficial. And I think that asking yourself like, what are my goals? Do I want children? What are like where would I like to live? What do I want my days to look like? Those are things that really matter in a relationship that aren't like super deep, touchy feely emotions, understanding yourself in that way. But, but they're still understand, they're still really important things to understand about yourself and your partner. And I think people, I know that people differ a lot in relative strengths and relative dominance of IQ and eq. You know, I, in academia, I can say this as an academic, like IQ reigns supreme, too supreme in my view and really to at the expense of EQ in many cases and tons of my academic friends, they're wonderful people, they're happily married, you know, and so I think it's like you gotta find your match. Right. And for me, I am a very cuddly, touchy feely person. And so that was a really important part of me that I hadn't honored and understood.

[Lewis Howes]

Wait, so okay, I'm confused now because you had a high iq, low EQ before getting married.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You were more in your head, but now I'm hearing you say you're a touchy feely, emotional, feeling person.

[Leslie John]

I am a feeling person for sure.

[Lewis Howes]

But you weren't back then is what

[Leslie John]

I'm here to say. No, I, so what I was back then is I was, I wasn't in touch with myself. Right. I would dismiss my feelings, I would dismiss my needs. I would say like the things that I wanted in a guy, like I wanted. Now I can say it because I'm aware of it. I wanted the like swoon worthy, like just that exciting, the romance. Like I wanted that, but I dismissed it. I like I shut it down. Why? Well, lots of things about my upbringing and you know, I don't want to drag things in but, but so that's what I mean. Does that help make sense?

[Lewis Howes]

Of course, yeah. Yeah.

[Leslie John]

But I also think it's really interesting we were talking Initially, a little bit about being parents. Oh my gosh. I, I just wouldn't change that for the world. It's so grounding and so amazing. And I, so I think about this a lot. I'm like, my parents did a great job in so many ways. Like, look at, look at where I am. And you feel like. My theory is, parents, you can't be perfect. You do your best. Every parent screws their kid up in some way. My goal is to not screw my kids up in the same way that my parents screwed me up. And so with my kid. But now I might be overcorrecting, but it is informed on data. So with my children, my boys, I'm very like, how are you feeling? Like I'm trying to get them. And they can now they can articulate their emotions. It's insane. They're like, I'm feeling disappointed, feeling frustrated. I'm feeling like more sophisticated than just the basic ones. And I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. And so I'm really trying to nurture that. So much so that it's interesting because when my mother, my mother is incredibly bright and she, back in the day, you know, she was born in 1949, and back in the day, IQ reigned even more supremely and she skipped at least two grades and she always did amazing in school. She's a pharmacist, super successful in everything. But she struggled in other ways, more subtle ways, which I learned recently, like in the past few years as I've deepened my relationship with my mother. And I think my theory on that is because imagine this, you're two or three years younger and you're a girl. Like, teenage girls are just so harsh. Like, that would have been so hard for her when you don't have the emotional maturity. And so my son, he's just turned five and we've done the opposite. We've held him back a year. And be. And my mom's like, why do you do that? She respects it. But she's like, he's really smart. He doesn't. And I'm like, yeah, he's super smart. But the emotional maturity, I want him to be able to deal with difficult feelings, process them. Like, so anyways, I digress.

[Lewis Howes]

There's something about this you said earlier about the mind reading expectations, you know, in male, female intimate relationships, who has higher mind reading expectations of the other?

[Leslie John]

Ooh. So I would guess that, I would guess that women have higher mind reading expectations.

[Lewis Howes]

And when someone has a high mind

[Leslie John]

reading, but not by much.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, well, when someone has a high mind reading expectation of their intimate partner.

[Leslie John]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

Expecting them to know what they think and feel at all times or when they're feeling some emotions they don't like.

[Leslie John]

Yep.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that do for the relationship when someone has high mind reading expectations of their partner?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, exactly. So it's brutal. Speaking from experience. So it, it, what it means is that you have unreasonable expectations. Right. And then it sets you up for disappointment if you implicitly. And that's the thing, it's all implicit. Like you don't even recognize that you're making these assumptions which makes them even more insidious. So if you're feeling crappy one day and like you want, you want, you just want your partner to come and give you a cuddly hug, but you don't say that, there's no apparent outside show of it. Then if your partner doesn't do that, you're like, he doesn't love me. He's a callous, he's a callous jerk. Like what is. And you come up with all. And you're in your head. Right. And so what these high mind reading expectations has taught me is to notice this and to be like, colin, I'm feeling really crappy, I need a hug.

[Lewis Howes]

And not, not saying it in a way like, gosh, why don't you just hug me already?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

Like I didn't know. Right.

[Leslie John]

And then, and then we talk about it and then I'm like, so for me, if in doubt, cuddles in love, like I don't need like problem solving. I just very tactile. And, and it's interesting because that then opened a conversation with us about how he said, because I had always thought a little bit like he's kind of aloof. I know he loves me, but he's a little, he's not goo goo like cuddly wuddly, like I am. And he said, you know, the reason why I have, I have a thing, a bit of a complex because like you, he's a really tall guy and he also was a professional, professional soccer player and he, so he was very sensitive about being overbearing to people and with personal space and he'd never want it because he's so classy and so like, you know, never wants women especially to feel uncomfortable. So sometimes it can come even with his own wife as like standoffish. And so that was so interesting. I never, like, if I hadn't asked him, I never, never would have guessed that because I'm not like that. So it's really, really important because also when you share, when you say how you feel, like it is a conversation too. And then you become more intimate because you know each other so well. And study after study has shown that feeling known for who you really are, like warts and all, is such a strong predictor of strong relationships.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, in fact. So suppose, okay, so suppose I have low self esteem. And on the one hand, in one situation, my husband would, if he says, oh, you know, you're such a badass goddess. You, like, you're so together and confident and you're really great at what you do. Another version is, I know you struggle sometimes with self esteem and, and not even saying it's okay or anything, but just saying what I am. Like, that is so much more strongly predictive of a strong relationship than when someone idealizes you because you want to be known. Like, isn't that so much more meaningful that even though if I had low self esteem, he still loves me, he's like, he knows me. It's not like some fake. I'm not an imposter in this relationship.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting. I mean, do you feel like you were vulnerable in previous relationships?

[Leslie John]

No, that's. The other thing is I, I was not really, I was not.

[Lewis Howes]

So you just kind of held your emotions to the chest. You weren't sharing what was on your heart or mind and like, yep. What sad things you were going through.

[Leslie John]

And I think it was for me. So I think when people under share, there's often two things. One, the bigger issue, which is what I had, is lack of emotional awareness of oneself. Like, I did not know what I was feeling, I didn't understand myself. Which sounds crazy because it's like even the thought of needing to understand myself, like, I am me, I'm the cells in my body. Like, why don't we come with the built in understanding? But we don't. So the core, that's the core issue is not understanding yourself. And then the second is people who really do understand them. This is like my husband, he really understands himself, but he's very reserved. But when someone just doesn't share, you don't know which is which.

[Lewis Howes]

So in my case, until you share, you know more.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So when did you start to have a, I guess an emotional breakthrough where you were like, okay, I'm realizing that this is who I am. I'm being more aware that I have had this upbringing which is maybe we don't say we love you enough or ever or we don't talk about our feelings or it's just toughen up or don't cry. And you're just like stiff upper lip. Yeah. Get through it. Like, ah, just rub some dirt on it.

[Leslie John]

You got this. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Keep going or do better. I can relate to that in some ways. But it's like, when did you have an emotional breakthrough where you said oh again? It doesn't mean my childhood or my parents were bad or wrong. They just didn't have the tools to teach me these things. I need to learn how to emotionally evolve so that I can have better intimacy relationships with my partner, with my children, with friends.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was a series of things. Divorce was amazing.

[Lewis Howes]

That'll break you open.

[Leslie John]

I mean I don't think enough people get divorced.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't think people should get divorced. I think you should go through a process of onboarding your relationship so you're in alignment. 100 with the right values.

[Leslie John]

That's the best.

[Lewis Howes]

And it doesn't mean it's always gonna work out.

[Leslie John]

That's the best.

[Lewis Howes]

But doing that before saying, let's just

[Leslie John]

get married 100% the state of the world. Unfortunately, we are not psychologically enlightened enough, myself included, to be making. So in that I, I just think that people are in marriages that they should be in. But obviously I'm biased. So like I'm at the point now where I'm super grateful to my ex husband because I never would have met Colin. I know. But yeah, I mean one of the. Divorce is a big thing which prompted a lot of self reflection. I had a great therapist who was really helpful, but it made me start to, you know, unpack why, what it was, why I married this person, what went wrong.

[Lewis Howes]

But then also do academics go through therapy secretly. But if you're so smart, you have

[Leslie John]

such iq, we're the ones that need it, right?

[Lewis Howes]

I'm not. You said it, not me.

[Leslie John]

We are the one. Like, oh my God, therapy is the greatest thing ever. That and exercise, like for well being, I think. But, but you have to get the right therapist, right? Like, yeah, but then there was, I think like there was like I had some really close friends who helped me in, in processing what I wanted. And, and then I also the huge thing, I mean this is all just all developing. It's all an emotional, it's all a journey. But I learned something that really, really helped me. Really just occurred as I was writing the book because I, I cut me off if I'm rambling. Go ahead. Okay. So before I got married to my first husband the month before. I had second thoughts. And I had second thoughts because I, I was like attracted to other men. Like super attracted to other men. And I thought, I mean, I know like, yeah. That people are attracted to people, but like it was like I wanted to act on it. And I'm like, this is not, this doesn't feel right. And so I called my mom and I, I said, I expressed the concern

[Lewis Howes]

and that was courageous and over sharing that.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, it was. But that's how lost I was. I'm like, I don't know what to do that I, that I actually said this to my mom. We're, we're pretty close, but this was a big deal.

[Lewis Howes]

So I tell her that I want to act on, you know, being with other men before your marriage.

[Leslie John]

I told her that. Yeah. Right. Which is kind of a big deal to say to your mom. So she said, huh. You know, it's interesting because before I married your father, I had second thoughts too.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Leslie John]

And

[Lewis Howes]

in your mind, are you thinking your parents should have stayed married?

[Leslie John]

Well, so. No. So then I'm like, whoa. And then she said, but you know, she said the reason I had a second like you, I really enjoyed my flirtation. This is how she totally how she'd say it. I really enjoyed my flirtations with other men. But I'm so glad I married your father because look at how happy we are. Look at the lives we've built. And I really do believe they're truly happy. I wouldn't be happy in that marriage, but they are very happy. And she said, you know, the like physical stuff that the like really, I can only think of it in my words. So that's why I'm like, you wouldn't say the way I would say like on a rip. You're fan. The physical stuff, it wanes what you, what you have. What we have is like the mature, long lasting love. And so then I was like, oh yeah, I have the mature love. And so I went ahead with it and I got married. And then, yeah, I spare you the details, but it was not a good marriage. We got divorced. And then once I.

[Lewis Howes]

When did you know we weren't meant to be together in the marriage? Like right after you got married?

[Leslie John]

No, I was, it was a joyous day. And like the first year. But then after the first year I, it was like, this is like life settled in.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Leslie John]

But it would go in waves, right? Because it's hard. It's a hard thing. Divorce is the kind of thing that's crazy painful in the moment. Like, even if it's totally the right call, it's so hard to do because it's so painful even when it's right.

[Lewis Howes]

You guys have kids?

[Leslie John]

Do you perpetually know? But that was also a thing where like I never. That was revealing to me.

[Lewis Howes]

That you don't want to.

[Leslie John]

Right, Right. Okay. So then I. Okay, so then I'm divorced. And then I get this email. Few years after I'm divorced, my brother adds me to an email chain, and he says, last check. Check out what's at the bottom. And so it was between my parents, because my brother does their finances, but at the very bottom. So they had added my brother on, and they'd forgotten that at the very bottom of the email, it's a convo between my mom and my dad about my mom going to her lover's house. I know. And I'm like, whoa. I'm, like, filled with rage.

[Lewis Howes]

Because they lied to you about it.

[Leslie John]

Exactly. Because I immediately went back to that conversation. I'm like, you under shared. If you. It would have been better for you to have said nothing than for you to have told me half the story. Like, how dare. Like, I would never have married that man if you had. If you had told me that. The way you compensate is buy this, which works for you. And, like, I'm not mad. Like, I'm hap. Like, it's. It's. It's consent. It's all fine. Like, whatever. Lots of different relationship. But I know for me, that is not. I. I crave, like, monogamy. And. And so I just felt so misled. I was so angry about it, but I never said it to her. I just kind of lived in, like,

[Lewis Howes]

have you told her now?

[Leslie John]

Well, so then I'm writing the. Literally writing the book, and I'm like,

[Lewis Howes]

that's a big betrayal in a sense, I think.

[Leslie John]

Exactly. And I always felt, you know, and over the years, like. So I held on to this for, like, 10 years. And so over the years, you never

[Lewis Howes]

spoke to her for 10 years about it. You saw and you did in the dressing, right? I know.

[Leslie John]

See, like, avoidant. But then, like, I was the.

[Lewis Howes]

The.

[Leslie John]

The rage kind of went away. And then I got remarried.

[Lewis Howes]

And you still had, like, this resentment problem, and I.

[Leslie John]

But I kind of like.

[Lewis Howes]

And so you're good at stuffing your emotions.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, yeah. Too good. Working on it. And so then I'm literally writing the book. And the book I wanted from chapter three, a story of someone who, like, there was under sharing and they didn't realize at the moment, and then if they'd only known. And, like, it's the kind of story that's hard to find. Right?

[Lewis Howes]

You're like this.

[Leslie John]

Then, like, I. Deep in my middle of the night,

[Lewis Howes]

that I've stuffed down something there.

[Leslie John]

It's always in the middle of the night, I woke up and I'm like, oh, my God, I have stuffed this down. I've never talked to my mother about this. She doesn't know that I know this and that I feel this way and that I felt such. I didn't feel. Feel such intense rage anymore. But I'm like, how can I write this book? Like, I don't know if I'm putting the story in the book. That was a whole other series of conversations.

[Lewis Howes]

But I need to address this myself.

[Leslie John]

But I need to address this myself. Like, this book is completely hypocrite. If I believe what I'm writing, I gotta do this.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Leslie John]

So I did it. I had the convo with her and I saw her.

[Lewis Howes]

Or face to face.

[Leslie John]

Face to face.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Leslie John]

Big glass of scotch. I know you're in extreme situations. Like, I am human.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Yeah, of course.

[Leslie John]

And so still we're really.

[Lewis Howes]

To really face it.

[Leslie John]

You can cut that out. Took some creatine. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, good.

[Leslie John]

And. And I said, sat down, Facebook.

[Lewis Howes]

Did you say, hey, I have something I want to tell you. Let's meet. Did you just meet and say, okay, now?

[Leslie John]

Well, I think it was like, no, I was not. I don't think I gave her a warning.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, so you just met up.

[Leslie John]

How do you. And then she'll ruminate. So I just was like, let's just. Just do it.

[Lewis Howes]

She met up and how did.

[Leslie John]

We were relaxed, the kids were in bed.

[Lewis Howes]

I said, hey, listen, 10 years ago I saw.

[Leslie John]

How dare. You know, I said to her, I did think about how I was going to open it. And I said, what. Do you remember that phone call before I married my first marriage? And she said, yes. And she like this, this knowing. But it wasn't. It wasn't defensive. It was like a knowing, warm. She's like, yes. And I've always wondered whether I said the right thing.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my God.

[Leslie John]

And I'm like, oh, my God.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Leslie John]

And. And then she, you know, I told her how I felt and then she's like, wow. And she said, you know, I can have. Totally appreciate that. But at the time, I actually did not think I was omitting anything. And this is part.

[Lewis Howes]

She didn't think she was.

[Leslie John]

She did not. And this is part of the point. So often the thought of sharing something doesn't even occur to us. She didn't even think of it was relevant. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, had she known that, like, oh, yeah, you can get married and have a lover later.

[Leslie John]

We are giving her a lot of benefit of the doubt. But, but I, I, it was just like so like curative to, to talk to her about it and to tell her how I felt. And then I realized like, you know, but like mom, what were you supposed to do? It's the month before your, my wedding. Like you were in a tricky situation too. And like so, and then I realized it's as much my own, like, well, I'm the one that didn't honor what I really want in a mate. Like, you know, so I can't.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. It's not all her fault. One thing that she could have said would have changed everything. Yeah. But then like it's not on her to make the decision.

[Leslie John]

Right. It's.

[Lewis Howes]

You gotta make the decision. You're 28. Also. It's not like you're 17.

[Leslie John]

Exactly. I'm a grown ass woman.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So you can't put it on her.

[Leslie John]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

Even if she said, you know, we have a great relationship and we have some fun on the side, you probably still would have gotten married.

[Leslie John]

I know I say I wouldn't have, but I probably would have convinced myself because it's like the, it's so hard to call it off then. Right. So. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So I'm curious then, what happens to your self respect or anyone's self respect when we don't express our truth to someone else? When we don't.

[Leslie John]

Oh, I love that.

[Lewis Howes]

Because you didn't share for a decade.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

How you felt.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. I love that.

[Lewis Howes]

What happened to your self respect.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

In that ten year season.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Of stuffing the emotion.

[Leslie John]

Right. I mean I think that the stuffing of the emotion. Right. It doesn't, it's not honoring yourself. It's in disservice to yourself of it's this theme of like not like it's like avoiding yourself and not coming to terms with tricky things. And it's hard coming to terms with tricky things. But on the other end, like I had that like Guinness Book of World Records most awkward conversation with my mom and like we are closer than ever. Like we had this amazing convo after that made like during this whole thing. It was like two hour conversation. We and, and things that I had felt alone in, I suddenly didn't feel alone in. For example, we, we talked about love and what she thinks love is and what I like. It was fascinating. And I said, you know, mom, when I had Oliver, our firstborn, when they put him on my chest, I didn't feel like goo goo gaga love towards him. I felt duty and responsibility and I felt curiosity. Like this Is an alien human. That just came out like it was very cognitive. But I've always felt, I had always felt a little ashamed of that because I'm like so many moms are like a different way. They're like, oh my God, I need to nurture it. Which is great. But I didn't feel that way. And she said I felt the same way. I didn't, you know, it came after once I now I'm like super Goo Goo Gaga mama. I kiss their feet, I kiss their bums. I'm obsessed. But it came after for me. And so it was just a wonderful conversation of. And that's what happens when you open up. You're less alone. But on the self respect issue, I also think that when you say hard things to other people. So for example, a great case here would be giving difficult feedback to someone, right?

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Leslie John]

As an entrepreneur as like you often have to give difficult feedback to people, I would imagine.

[Lewis Howes]

Is it important to give difficult feedback to people in your life?

[Leslie John]

Yes, 100%. It's a gift.

[Lewis Howes]

It's a gift because what if people can't receive feedback?

[Leslie John]

Well, that's where being a good feedback giver, even if you give it and

[Lewis Howes]

you're like walking your tippy toes and you're like, you know, and you say five compliments first but just one thing and they're just like heartbroken. Like you could still try to give it the best way, calmest way, empowering them, lifting them up, sandwich one little note of like what they need and then add something else and still people may not be able to receive it.

[Leslie John]

True. I guess I'm a big believer in the skill of delivering feedback. Sure there are people that are so defensive and so insecure and so in a hard place in life that they just can't take it. But that's also part of the feedback giver's role is like, is this the right time for this person? And you have to be patient.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. And if you wait and never it's too late.

[Leslie John]

No, no, I know, it's great.

[Lewis Howes]

It could be a month later, like, oh, let's wait till a better time. There might not be a better time. People share for sure. And get them to share.

[Leslie John]

Right. And I think that so some of the ways what you said about respect I think is really wonderful because I think that's a great way to frame difficult feedback. I know we've heard of this feedback sandwich. You said it. I've actually done research on the feedback sandwich because I viewed it with contempt because I'm like, this is bs like the sandwich. Just because by the time you get to the middle, if you put compliments everywhere, people are going to forget. So I actually, with my bestie, Allison Brooks, and a colleague, we did studies on this where we are. We are varying the order of feedback to see if the sandwich. Because we were. It was like, I viewed it with contempt. We're like, screw this.

[Lewis Howes]

So what. So what is the best way to give feedback based on your research?

[Leslie John]

The sandwich works.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Leslie John]

We were like, tail between our legs. The most important thing, it's the end. Doesn't matter. The end. Actually, positive at the end isn't so important. It's starting with the positive. And. But that can mean a lot of things. I love the respect because you can say, look, I respect you. I owe it to you. You deserve my. The honest truth here. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, I've given you feedback because I respect you.

[Leslie John]

Exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't give you continual feedback, then I don't care.

[Leslie John]

I'm not being kind. Kindness is.

[Lewis Howes]

Is wanting to see you grow, wanting

[Leslie John]

to see you 100%. And I. So I'm the official bad guy at HBS because I know I don't look like a bad guy. I don't think so. But. But. So I am the chair of the Academic Performance committee. So whenever MBAs get enough bad grades, for whatever reason, they come before my committee and they have to kind of make an appeal to.

[Lewis Howes]

Been in your office constantly. Well, first off, I would have never even gotten into Harvard, but I would have been in there. I would have been in your office constantly.

[Leslie John]

And so I have evolved in the way I handle these meetings because so the people, they're upset. They're like, why did I. Why am I having to leave? Or why am I having to take xrs or whatever. And my initial approach in these meetings, they ask a question and I answer it. And I'm like, here's why. But that's such a terrible. Like, it puts it on a. Like, defend. And here's why you. And now. And it never went over well. And now what I do is the first 20 minutes of the meeting, I don't say anything. I let them talk. And if they try to ask me why, I just. Just ask them back. Like, they need to talk. They need to tell me how they feel. They don't know they need to do this, but they need to be heard. So I hear them. And then after I've heard them, I also learn more about them. And I learn more about how I may actually be able to Help them. And then it's super constructive because we get into, like, what we can actually do. And so I think that sometimes when we give difficult feedback, we think we need to be more active, but, like, just. Just listening. There's so much value in people. Just they need to. They need to get it out to you. Even if you already know what they're going to say, the action of them telling you is incredibly important.

[Lewis Howes]

So interesting because I essentially have one. I don't know if it's rule, but before me and my wife got in a committed relationship as we're dating. Not. Not marriage, but yeah, when we're kind of dating, I said, listen, I'm willing to, you know, I'm willing to commit and go all in. It was like a big decision to, like, get in another relationship. After I'd had many relationships that were challenging. I'd done a lot of healing work, and I was like, listen, I'm willing to commit and go all in. With the intention of getting married in the future, with the intention of having kids in the future, creating a family. Not just day to date.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But I was like, okay, we're starting to learn each other's values. I'm understanding your values. These are my values. This is what I want for my future. So it's with that context in mind. Okay, let's do this. Knowing that that is our intention. Not just we like each other, let's date to date.

[Leslie John]

Right?

[Lewis Howes]

I said, I have one condition. Only one. I said, I will never get mad at you for anything. Never get mad at you. If you do. If you do whatever you're going to do, you act who you are. I feel like I know you enough now with the time that we've been dating for a while ago. I won't get mad. I might get frustrated or like. Like annoyed. But I'm not going to get mad at you. I'm not going to yell at you. I'm never going to raise my voice because I'm going to choose to accept you for who you are. I may not like things you do, but I'm going to choose to accept you and create agreements around these things. And I only have one condition. The condition is you cannot get mad at me. If you're upset with me about something, you have to bring me first. Come to me and talk about at least one thing you appreciate about me first. Then we can talk all day long about something that's bothering you.

[Leslie John]

Disarming, isn't it?

[Lewis Howes]

If something is upsetting you or bothering you that you Want to talk about? I will listen to you for hours.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I will speak to you and disarm it.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But you just have to. Because my whole life is going to be committed to finding ways to improve your life. And if you come to me by one thing that you're upset about and you don't just acknowledge at least the good I've been doing for the last three months of how I continue to add value and how I show up and how I'm doing present, how I listen and how I take us out and do experiences and provide and protect. If you just come to me with the one thing that's bothering you and you don't acknowledge at least one good thing.

[Leslie John]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm gonna be up, then I'm gonna be upset. That's the only time I'll be angry.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I said, can we agree on this?

[Leslie John]

What did she say?

[Lewis Howes]

She said, yeah. She didn't understand it at first because what if I just am upset about something? I go, that doesn't work for me. And if that's the case, then I'm not the right guy for you. If all you have to do is. Is just say, I really appreciate this and there's something that's been on my heart that I want to talk about.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I said, maybe I'm messed up because I'm having that request, but it's going to make me a better human. It's going to make me a better partner. Because you have to understand, in my mind, all day I'm thinking about how to make your life better. And I'm acting in accordance and I'm committing my life to you. I'm eliminating every other option in the world to focus on you and to create a life that we envision together. And all I ask in return is you don't get angry, upset, or raise your voice at me. Just talk to me. You can be upset, but just tell me one thing you appreciate first so that I feel seen for the constant effort that I'm putting in versus just. I don't like you did this. I don't like you did this. Why'd you do this? No, that doesn't work for me. If you need to do that, find another guy.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And all the best.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. I'll be single. And that's okay.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It just was my request.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Leslie John]

Underappreciated.

[Lewis Howes]

Underappreciated. But it's more like just under attack, you know, it's like, why are you doing this? Or why is that? Or why is this? I didn't feel understood. And then therefore there was a frustration. Maybe it was a mind reading expectation or whatever it is, or they wanted me to be a different person. They expected me once we were together. Now I'm going to be a different person as opposed to this is who I am, except me, warts and all. Or don't be with me and that's okay. And I lack the courage to get out of those relationships.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, that's hard.

[Lewis Howes]

I change to make them happy.

[Leslie John]

You weren't you then.

[Lewis Howes]

I wasn't happy. And they still weren't happy. So no matter how much I changed, they still weren't happy. So I was like, I'm never gonna change for you.

[Leslie John]

Right?

[Lewis Howes]

Never.

[Leslie John]

It sounds harsh. Sounds harsh, but it's real.

[Lewis Howes]

But I'm gonna improve. I'm grow. I'm gonna be constantly evolving. I'm gonna constantly healing.

[Leslie John]

You will change because we all change.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Leslie John]

But I'm not gonna change to your specifications. Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So accept me. I will fully accept you.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

If something bothers me, I'll just talk to you about it.

[Leslie John]

So I'm curious Did your wife have any conditions?

[Lewis Howes]

No. I mean, besides, like, if we're going to be exclusively dating, the intention is we're going to be getting married.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And we're. We're getting kids. We're older.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

She was like, I can't waste my time being in a relationship.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And so it wasn't more of, like, conditions, was more like agreements.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I think I was so clear. We also started the relationship in therapy. I said, I'm not getting a committed relationship unless we start in therapy.

[Leslie John]

Love it.

[Lewis Howes]

She was like, I'm in.

[Leslie John]

Amazing.

[Lewis Howes]

So for me, I was like, I don't want to go two years. And then it's just like we're exhausted or it doesn't work out or the first year is good.

[Leslie John]

And then I'm a huge fan of, like, proactive therapy. Everybody can use therapy. Once you're having problems, it's like, too late.

[Lewis Howes]

No, start with get. Not get all the problems out of the way, but, like, start with healing individually and creating agreements together to create less issues in the future. It doesn't mean we don't have things we need to overcome together.

[Leslie John]

Right, Right.

[Lewis Howes]

But I feel like we have this ability to communicate based on our values and our vision and our lifestyle and understanding each other. So, anyways, I got off here, but beautiful. I'm curious when a person. What happens to a person inside of them when they decide not to share what's really going on? They. They hide back their feelings. Like you held back your feelings for 10 years to your mom.

[Leslie John]

I know.

[Lewis Howes]

If you. You don't really say how you feel to your partner, what is happening inside of them when those things start to pile up. And I know you have, like, this demonstration. Maybe you can.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, sure. Well, okay. So the first. I think if we were to unpack this, the big picture plight of the book is I would like to make visible something that is usually invisible to us, and that's the dozens, hundreds, thousands of disclosure decisions we make every single day.

[Lewis Howes]

What's a disclosure decision? What does that mean?

[Leslie John]

Right. So I'm going to walk you through day in the life of disclosure decision making. Okay. And sometimes we decide to reveal the thing to say the thing, but oftentimes we don't. So let's. My point, though, that we'll get to spoiler alert is that even not saying, even the things we don't say are still a choice. Okay. So what we're going to do is we're going to go day in the life. Let me get my Sharpie. Like a Sharpie. Sharpie. Sound like a Canadian. Okay. And want to hold that?

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. Okay.

[Leslie John]

So, okay, here's a day in the life. You wake up in the morning and alarm goes on. You roll over to your spouse. You say, we'll start off cuddly and nice. I love you, dear. So you say that. Put that in that one.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Leslie John]

And then. And then you're like, oh, I feel like I slept so badly. You just think it.

[Lewis Howes]

You don't say it.

[Leslie John]

You don't say it.

[Lewis Howes]

It goes in the unsaid jar, right?

[Leslie John]

How many times have you. Like, you don't want to be whiny. You want to be a buzzkill, right? From day one. Okay. Oh, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Hold them both.

[Leslie John]

Okay, perfect. All right. So then you go to the. You, you get. You both get up with your spouse. You're in the bathroom, you look at yourself in the mirror, and you say. You kind of feel a little disappointed because you think I look.

[Lewis Howes]

Look.

[Leslie John]

Okay, that's unsaid.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Leslie John]

And then you say, you think to yourself, I really. I feel older than I thought I would at this age.

[Lewis Howes]

You think it.

[Leslie John]

You think it. Okay, Brushing your teeth. You go down. Go down to the kitchen. Kids are mulling about, hubby's making lunch for the kids. Hubby says, what should I give the kids for snack? And you say, just. Just pick something. Just pick something. Not another decision for mama.

[Lewis Howes]

Sure, sure.

[Leslie John]

Then you. You know, he's like, what? I'm just trying to make lunch. What are you talking about? What you didn't say is, I am on edge today because I haven't slept. I'm really nervous about my work today. I may be.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay. It's a lot of thoughts on set.

[Leslie John]

Unsaid. I may be. Because of this. I may be a little snappy. It's not you.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Leslie John]

That's why I'm snapping. It's not really about the snap.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Leslie John]

And I could use a hug.

[Lewis Howes]

Right?

[Leslie John]

So you don't say any of that. You just.

[Lewis Howes]

You're just expecting them to understand you.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. And now he's. Now he's pissed because he's like, look at this. She's so what? Such a great shithead. Like, I'm doing this. She could just answer a question. And it's never about that. The. The. The. The stupid snack. Right. It's these things. Okay, so then I'm digressing. Okay, so then you. You get in the car, you drive your kids. You get in the car to drive your kids to school. Your dad calls. He says, oh, I'm driving him on the way to the doctor's office. And what you think is, whoa, 70 year old dad driving, has some dementia issues, possibly shouldn't be driving. I'm worried about him behind the camera. What you say is, hey, let's talk later. When, when you're on the car, dad.

[Lewis Howes]

So you said that.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, yeah, so you said that. So then you, you get to work, your assistant says, hey, how you doing? You say, great. What you don't say is, I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed. I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed. So on and on and on the day goes, right. We're mounting up and, and so you can see that I could go on and on. I won't. But, like, we don't need statistics to know that there was a heck of a lot more going into the unsaid.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Leslie John]

Than into the said. And we could even, like, be huge nerds. And look at what these are. And a lot of them are feelings. Right? A lot of the things that we don't share are our feelings. And the thing is, like, this day, this is a pretty banal day. It's not an unusual day. And yet there's so many more things that go unsaid that could be said. I'm not saying that all of these should go in there. Not by any means. There's good reasons why we don't share. We are busy, we're being polite. We may be being strategic. There's lots of good reasons to not share. But the problem is when we go through life, we default to. We don't even think about sharing. Right. Those. I feel old. Like, you don't think of sharing that to your spouse and imagine if you did. They may say, I do too, but, you know, but our children, like, look at our children. Part of being old is enjoying our children. And, you know, you could, you can talk to. Then you can. You feel less alone. If you tell your boss that after your boss compliments you after a big, a big presentation that you were anxious about, you say, great, thanks for the compliment. What you don't say is, you know, I was actually feeling pretty anxious before, and I'm really proud of how I did that. And that was so enjoyable. I'd love more opportunities. And then they understand, then it's like career success, right? Like, you can see how exuberant I am about this concept. Like, of course there are times, like the assistant, you're not going to dump to your assistant that you're overwhelmed. You don't know what to Prioritize. Of course not. But it's a real problem. I think, that we don't even consider the possibility of sharing more.

[Lewis Howes]

But isn't there a flip side to this where people have tried to overshare and maybe it hurt them by they. They really were vulnerable? I know. As a man growing, I remember one time in a relationship, I. I shared how I was feeling, and my girlfriend said, you look weak to me. And she said, I know, I know.

[Leslie John]

I'm not her problem.

[Lewis Howes]

She's like, I know I'm not supposed to think this.

[Leslie John]

Oh, good for her. Well, it's great she shared that. Then I take it back, the cattiness.

[Lewis Howes]

But it's like. But she was like, she couldn't receive the emotions that I had. It's not like I was, like, wallowing on the ground emotional, but I was, like, being emotional. I was having a moment.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I was showing some emotion. And she's just like, I know I'm supposed to.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, be okay with this, but I'm not.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I think a lot of men have experienced that where they have tried to be vulnerable. They've tried to. Maybe they even cried in front of their girlfriend at one point. Whatever reason, they felt a little shift. They felt a change. They felt an energetic, a communicational change where it was like, huh, Do I really feel safe around this person? This man, if he's weak, even if it's just for a moment, can I trust him? So when is oversharing actually hurt you? When does it hurt you with your boss, where you just say, this is actually how I'm feeling. I'm really insecure and scared and nervous. And then he's like, well, can I trust you?

[Leslie John]

Right. For sure. Do I respect you in that example? There's a key distinction. The example I was giving was after the talk. Right. You do not want to say this to your boss, someone who has higher status than you. Before the talk, you do not want

[Lewis Howes]

to say, like, all right, you're not giving the talk.

[Leslie John]

You're not going to say, I got

[Lewis Howes]

to go do this.

[Leslie John]

Right. And in fact, sometimes if the boss came in before the talk was like, how you feeling? You'd say, like, great. I'm pumped. I'm excited.

[Lewis Howes]

Sometimes it's almost like you're lying.

[Leslie John]

Well, so it's what you choose to share, because anxiety and excitement are together. It's selective. Right. And we're allowed to be selective. We should be selective. We're not. We shouldn't say everything on our mind. And in fact, if you say you're anxious, then you can it can cause you to be more anxious. Right? Like saying is believing in right. So.

[Lewis Howes]

So what I'm hearing you say then revealing and the underrated power of oversharing is all based on context.

[Leslie John]

Oh, contact is so important. Yeah. And in fact, the people that I think are the best at doing this, at knowing the line between TMI and tli, which is constantly moving, are people who have what I call a lot of disclosure flexibility. Those are the people who go way open, super vulnerable, and vacillate between that and complete guardedness. Because different situations call for entirely different things.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Leslie John]

I would also say in your example, I mean there was so many thought bubbles as you were talking about that it was a really rich one. But sometimes the answer to over sharing or feeling like you overshared is actually to ask questions and share more. Right? To say, oh, that makes me feel really hurt that you've reacted that way. Because to me masculinity is being confident with all of the emotions. I will always protect you. Right. Like, or saying like, tell me more, what is your. What makes you feel insecure? Like, right. So it. It pro should prompt more understanding and maybe the answers won't be good. Maybe you. And then that's informative too because you've learned that you're not on the same page and this person is different.

[Lewis Howes]

But it was, it was just like I know a lot of men. I wrote a book about, you know, called the Mask of Masculinity. Eight years ago, I guess it was now. And it was about unpacking my own kind of amazing inability to be vulnerable because I felt like I had to fit in in society around men, friend group with men, around intimacy and relationships with women, around how I was supposed to, to be as the youngest son, whatever it might be. So it was like the mask that I wore to protect myself emotionally and psychologically in the world and the mask that men have worn to try to fit in and belong. Now women have had to wear masks

[Leslie John]

as well, different, of a different nature. And one of the studies that really struck me as I was writing the book as a boy mom is a study where with preschoolers they measured their galvanic skin response. So that's how sweaty your palms are, which is a measure of how anxious you feel. And they also videotaped their faces, how much they expressed how much they revealed about what they were feeling as the children were watching like scary movies. And what they found was that the people who, the children who expressed more were physiologically calmer. So their palms weren't as sweaty. So expression literally was calming for them. Bottling up on the other side, which you had touched on earlier. It's extremely bad for our well being in many different ways. It's really stressful. And then the kicker for me was that by the age of second grade, the boys had became less expressive over time because they learned that keeping it in, being stoic, that's, that's the masculine. Right? It's, it's. So I'm curious what for you, this mask that you felt you had, did you have certain turning point points of like, that really, really were step functions in the mask going away and taking them off.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, right around, right around 13 years ago, 29 to 30 years old, I, I had accomplished what I thought I was supposed to accomplish in my 20s by building a business and making millions of dollars and having attractive girlfriends and having status and having followers and all these things. But I felt more empty, more alone, more unsure and insecure of myself. But others thought I was figuring it out.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I had these kind of like three different breakdowns in relationships that, you know, a business partnership, a girlfriend that was kind of like off and on and emotional and break up and get back together, and then a friendship that was like all happening with the same season, like few months, like all these relationships were broke, breaking down. And I was originally like, what is wrong with each one of these people? But I was the common denominator. So I had a moment to reflect and I was just like, like, oh man, there's something wrong with me because I'm at the root. I'm the common denominator of all these broken relationships. I can't point the finger at everyone. Something is happening where I don't have the emotional skills or I don't have the tools, I'm not creating boundaries or I'm out of alignment with something. And that became a journey of going through as much emotional intelligence training workshops, therapies, coaching for the last 13 years as possible. And that's when I launched the show. Yeah, I launched the show 13 years ago because I was like, okay, I've accomplished success, but I don't have greatness in my life. Like, I've accomplished things, but I don't feel great, I don't feel good. So what's wrong with me? Yeah, let me go ask the experts. Let me humble myself and stop being a cocky twenty something year old thinking I've got to figure it out and let me humble myself and bring in the truth, true leaders of the world, people with wisdom, experience, research, like yourself, and say, teach me. And through learning, let me share with others and try to help others who are going through a simpler struggle around personal challenges, finance, health, relationships, whatever it might be. So the last 13 years has been a dynamic of me being the guinea pig of struggle and saying, all right, I'm going to try to be the best version of myself that I can be. I'm going to try to draw my wisest version of my future self to

[Leslie John]

me now and being like a lifelong learner I think is a really healthy mindset. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Constantly. And even at 40, I'll be 43 in a couple months. And even though I feel like, man, I have a ton of wisdom from the last 13 years or my whole life so far, but it's like, man, I have so much more. The deeper that I can go to where I can impact people in a greater capacity, individually group settings, mass audience settings. There's so much more that I can uncover within myself, and yet I can keep it extremely simple at the same time, I don't have to, like, keep going deeper and deeper always. It's like I can integrate the wisdom and then just impact and serve. Serve my dreams and my highest calling and serve the people around me to the best of my ability. And it doesn't mean I'm always gonna be perfect and I'll fall from grace and I'll fall back into old childhood patterns at times.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, but you'll recognize noticing it, catching

[Lewis Howes]

it, and replacing it with a wiser version of myself. And I think that's what doing this show and reading books and doing interviews continually reminds me of the things I already know. Usually I don't learn all these new things that I've never heard of. It's more like. Like, oh, this research is backing what I know. So let me go farther into this, you know. So, yeah, that's a lot of what it is. But I think the idea of there's a couple things that I'm hearing from you so far that could benefit people. One, if you're expecting someone to know what you're thinking or feeling just because you're feeling it, you're going to have a bad or challenging relationship and you're going to be frustrated in that relationship. If you're expecting someone to read your mind, even if you show them a little of, like, disgust in your. The moment of like, I've got some frustration in my life, they should just know. That is like. And one of the things that my wife Martha has done really well, she knows that I can't be a mind reader. And I'm like, if something is all going on, tell me. Yeah, right away. Don't wait till later in the day. Don't wait till midnight when we're in the middle of the bed about to sleep, like, tell me earlier.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, being a good elicitor is important too.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, let me serve you better.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You know what I mean? Just communicate a little bit and I can serve you higher. But if we're waiting till 1am to, like, let some Dump something on me.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

When I am not have the brain function. It's going to be exhausting for both of us. So trying to be a mind reader is an impossible job. So communicate more, even just communicate a little bit will go a long way. And this power of over sharing with context.

[Leslie John]

Yes. Knowing context is huge.

[Lewis Howes]

Who you're speaking to, when the timing is right is what I'm hearing is also important.

[Leslie John]

And I think there's also things that we tend to under share. And I would say the number one thing we tend to under share our feelings. And for lots of reasons. But if I to try to like people who are skeptical. The feelings, feelings and feelings. Like I'm a skeptic. I was born skeptical. So there's been studies that have looked at what people regret in life. And one of the studies was led by a colleague of mine at Cornell, Tom Gilovich, who's as brilliant as he is warm. And he discovered, he looked at what are the things that people regret in life? Do they regret the things they do or do they regret the things they did not do? And it turns out that it's something like 76% of regrets on average are things you didn't do.

[Lewis Howes]

Really.

[Leslie John]

And so unsaid, undersharing things you didn't do. And then. Okay, so clincher on top of that, then there's. I encountered this, a book by a palliative care nurse by the name of Bronnie Ware. She wrote a book.

[Lewis Howes]

I've had her on the show.

[Leslie John]

Oh my gosh. Amazing.

[Lewis Howes]

Five regrets.

[Leslie John]

Yes. Okay, so four out of five of them are things you didn't do. Number three, I wish I had shared my feelings more. Right. Like if that doesn't convince you and you can think about it like. So I was just talking to my dear hairstylist and she. We were talking about this. She said, you know, we had a PTA meeting, which is like good, pretty functional. And I decided because I'd read your book, I decided I was going to share. It wasn't going very well, this meeting. And so I decided to share my feelings. I decided to say I feel frustrated. And she said it was a complete game changer. And one of the re. And suddenly people were like, I feel frustrated too. And how do we. So they. They. It was relatable. Everyone was feeling the same thing or in variants of it. So it. It makes it so much more compelling. Then another example, which I didn't do this strategically, but showing feelings is so much more compelling. You become more persuasive when you do something with feeling when you show the feeling. And one example, this was fairly early on when I was dating my husband, my second, my now husband. And we were at this beautiful resort in the Caribbean and there was. I'm a terrible sleeper. I hate that. But I'm just a really, really bad sleeper. And it was, you know, the first night in paradise and it was like I didn't sleep at all. There was like a party above us. It was hell. Well, poor didn't both eggs. It was not good. And. And so then the next morning. So he's a little non confrontational. I'm. I can be confrontational when I care a lot. And so I'm like, this is, this is not right. The money we paid. So I go to the front desk and I start saying. And then I couldn't contain my feelings. So they were like, no, no, nothing we can do. And then I started crying. Not strategically, because I really, like, I was trying to not cry, but then that they shifted entirely and they put us in the most beautiful ocean, like on the water. Ocean Cottage. Like, I know it feels like I wasn't trying to be manipulative, but the lesson to me was like, I don't need to be so ashamed of crying. Like crying in the right time and place, it can be a high risk maneuver. But it also is really compelling information

[Lewis Howes]

because you really care.

[Leslie John]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

It's not just you're like frustrated and upset.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

It's like you really were sad.

[Leslie John]

It's a true signal. Right. It's easy to just complain, but this is a costly signal.

[Lewis Howes]

So you hear people complain all the time probably, right? Yeah.

[Leslie John]

Right. And they're like, oh, no, no, she really means it. So. But yeah. So sharing your feelings is something that we chronically under share. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. And there's a price to not sharing your true feelings.

[Leslie John]

Exactly. There are missed opportunities. There's friendships that never blossom. There's romances that never spark. There's colleagues that never quite trust you.

[Lewis Howes]

What's one question you could ask your intimate partner that would get them to share what they truly feel if they've been blocking or hiding those emotions for a long time?

[Leslie John]

That's a great question. I think what I would do, I mean, there's lots of things one could do, but there is a very powerful human tendency. I might even say instinct. I don't use that term lightly, but you can actually very make a very quite compelling evolutionary case to this. There's an instinct to reciprocate. And so if you, if your partner is more reserved. Like my husband, he's a recovering undershare, but I'm an oversharer. I've had my moments of like, so we balance each other out, but reciprocity. So if you, if you really. Instead of, like, trying to get the right question, if you share something proactively, you say, I feel, you know, the day we got married, I felt so happy. But I also felt, you know, uncertainty about the future and what our family life and where we'd live. Like, if you share something vulnerable, then that's so natural, especially when you're in a loving relationship. Reciprocation is like an. It feels weird not to do it. And so that's, that's. Instead of trying to get the perfect question, that's something I might try.

[Lewis Howes]

Lead with vulnerability, lead with sharing, lead with something that's powerful.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Well, I want people to check out your book. It's called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. And again, I just really believe, like, the relationships is the key to having a happy life. Powerful relationships come from the ability to communicate how you feel, obviously in the right context. And it doesn't mean you cry all day long if you're sad. But it's like learning how to communicate and connecting and learning how to receive. Someone's oversharing is what where the fruit of life is, because it's all about relationships. And if you struggle in relationships, you're going to struggle in your life life. And this is going to allow you to create more tools to having a powerful relationship. So the book's called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. And people can check your website out proflesleyjohn.com or the same on Instagram and LinkedIn and social media. Prof. Leslie John over there as well, I've got a couple final questions for you.

[Leslie John]

Lightning round.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, exactly. This is called the Three Truths. So a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want, and you get to do all the work that you love and all the research you love, and you get to have the experiences you imagine with your. Your family and your kids and all these different things, but for whatever reason, on your last day, you have to take all of your work with you, and we don't have access to your books, your interviews, your content anymore, but you get to leave behind one final message, and I call it the Three Truths. What would be those three things? Those three messages, Three truths you would leave behind from all the work and the research and the life lessons that you have.

[Leslie John]

Okay, I would say one is that we live in fear of tmi, which we should not because the bigger problem is TLI too little information. The second is that silence is a choice. And once you start thinking about silence as a choice, it will really open up your space because you will realize how much you can share because you'll realize how much you leave unsaid. And third, I would say revealing wisely is a skill and it's a skill that we can all get better at. And like any skill, it requires practice and iteration. So I would encourage people to try to stretch themselves a little bit more. And, and, and that's also on a meta level, what I've. What I'm doing in the book. Right. Like how can you write a book about revealing and not reveal?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Leslie John]

So, you know, hopefully I got it mostly right. But it's a, it's a. But you have to forgive yourself if you. That's part of learning and experimentation.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. It's an ongoing dance.

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

That's cool. Well, Leslie, I appreciate an acknowledge for one revealing during this because I think academics can sometimes hold back and we

[Leslie John]

get gnarled in the science.

[Lewis Howes]

It's all research and science and it's not going into our own personal life as well. So I'll really nod you for kind of revealing that about your mom and kind of having this like underlying resentment for a decade plus. But then this work making you face it and it's created a stronger relationship with your mom it sounds like for sure. And so I acknowledge you for doing the healing work for yourself while you're trying to create research and academic and

[Leslie John]

raise two crazy boys.

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly. But it's hard to do if you're a recovering non sharer.

[Leslie John]

Yeah. I also realized as I was writing it that I call myself an oversharer. But then I thought but it's more performative over sharing. Like I like telling self deprecating funny stories about myself. But when it really comes to sharing deep feelings.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you? Do I?

[Leslie John]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Well, we keep working on it. This is the starting point.

[Leslie John]

I'm a lifelong education case.

[Lewis Howes]

Final question, Leslie, what's your definition of greatness?

[Leslie John]

It's feeling so comfortable in your own skin and knowing yourself so much that you can get the things in life that you care about and that your. Your loved ones care about.

[Lewis Howes]

There you go. Leslie, thanks for being here. Appreciate you.

[Leslie John]

Thank you so much.

[Lewis Howes]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are love loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. With Venmo Stash A tag on one hand and ordering a ride in the

[Leslie John]

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[Lewis Howes]

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[Leslie John]

Match $100 cash back per month. See terms of moterms.

[Lewis Howes]

Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman, where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the Smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.