Clear and Reload: The West Point Mindset Behind 300 Real Estate Deals a Year | Bobby Kough

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Science of Flipping

Episode: Clear and Reload: The West Point Mindset Behind 300 Real Estate Deals a Year | Bobby Kough
Host: Justin Colby
Guest: Bobby Kough
Date: March 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Justin Colby sits down with Bobby Kough—West Point graduate, Army officer, football player, and powerhouse real estate investor—to discuss the mindset and systems behind building a real estate business capable of closing 300 deals a year. The conversation dives deep into the psychology of resilience, scaling from your first flip to building a seven-figure business, delegation, team building, and tactical marketing approaches. The central theme revolves around Bobby's "clear and reload" mindset—a practice rooted in his athletic and military training that translates into entrepreneurial tenacity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Authenticity in Entrepreneurship

• Both Justin and Bobby champion authenticity and "showing up as you are", referencing business icons like Gary Vaynerchuk. Today’s entrepreneurial space values transparency over appearance.
  Quote:
  "The cool thing about us as entrepreneurs ... it's become so acceptable to just be us. To be ... I think Gary V kind of made this a point. Like, be who you are. Be transparent. Be authentic." – Justin Colby (02:00)

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2. The "Clear and Reload" Mindset (03:29–07:17)

• Drawing from West Point football and work with sports psychologists, Bobby details his strategy for mentally resetting after setbacks—a process he calls 'clear and reload'.
• This involves a tangible physical cue (e.g., re-Velcroing gloves) to break from the past and focus on the next play or task.
• In real estate, Bobby and his team now use sensory cues (scent, music, physical touch) as mental resets after rejection or setbacks.
  Quotes:
  • "One of the biggest things that I learned is exactly what you're hitting on... that clear and reload. That was... the concept." – Bobby Kough (03:29)
  • "My clearing mechanism was like the Velcro on my gloves." – Bobby Kough (03:59)
  • "Clear and reload. Like, reset yourself." – Justin Colby (06:30)

Practical Application:

• Applies beyond sports—vital for entrepreneurs, real estate investors, and parents to stay present and effective after setbacks.

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3. Bobby’s Journey: From West Point to Real Estate (07:17–11:47)

• Bobby's military background shaped his focus on planning and resilience.
• COVID-19 acted as an unexpected catalyst for his real estate career: sent home from military instruction, he used his downtime to reassess, first turning to hobbies (chicken coops), then seeking true wealth-building vehicles.
• Books like Rich Dad, Poor Dad and resources like BiggerPockets inspired his leap.
• Bobby emphasizes his comfort zone is the "0 to 1" phase—starting new things over optimizing existing ones.
  Quote:
  "What I've recognized is 0 to 1 is kind of like where I like to live. In terms of like implementation. That's my sweet spot." – Bobby Kough (10:59)

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4. Discovering Strengths & Delegation (11:47–14:26)

• Emotional intelligence: Bobby discusses realizing his strengths lay in launching ventures, not operations.
• He learned to delegate, discovering fulfillment and greater success through partnering and passing off roles misaligned with his skills.
  Quote:
  "The first part is being aware of... being able to look in the mirror and say, look, I'm not Superman. I suck at... pushing things into the goal line... I need to get somebody else that could do that." – Bobby Kough (13:51)

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5. First Real Estate Deals: Humble Beginnings & Early Lessons (14:44–18:08)

• Bobby’s first flip was a success, netting ~$25k and fueling overconfidence.
• The next deal—a dilapidated "dumpster fire"—humbled him, stressing the importance of due diligence and sticking to personal buy-box criteria.
• Key mistake: playing contractor himself and ignoring property age and condition.
  Quote:
  "That false confidence led to immediate mistakes. Right after... I buy this house that was built in like the early 1900s. And it... looks like a house that you would see on a scary movie." – Bobby Kough (16:12)

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6. Persistence Through Setbacks: Mental Game of Investing (20:09–22:48)

• Bobby credits his "clear and reload" mindset and stubbornness for pushing through tough deals rather than quitting.
• Reflects on learning to pay professionals ("I am not a contractor") and setting clear investment guidelines.

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7. Early Lead Generation: The Power of MLS & Agent Relationships (22:54–24:58)

• Bobby’s initial deals came from the traditional MLS, underscoring its persistent, underestimated value.
• Success is tied more to agent relationships and negotiation than to the listings themselves.
  Quotes:
  • "There are still good deals that pop on the MLS." – Bobby Kough (23:15)
  • "People do deals, meaning the agent is the relationship. ...They will bring things to market or give you insight on deals that are coming to market." – Justin Colby (24:13)

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8. Transition to Scaling: From Solo Flipper to 300-Deals-a-Year (26:31–32:16)

• Bobby’s inflection point: opting to work for an established investor (now partner, Jimmy Vreeland), accelerating his learning and ultimately enabling him to scale.
• Advocates for the “fast pass” approach—getting paid to learn from a pro instead of going it alone or just buying coaching.
  Quotes:
  • "It truly is a fast pass... This helped my trajectory by at least five years..." – Bobby Kough (30:30)
  • "There is another door... go and find Bobby and work for Bobby right now." – Justin Colby (29:10)

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9. The Realities of Entrepreneurship: Ego, Delegation & Team Building (32:16–35:13)

• Major challenge: Setting aside ego to work under or with others.
• The myth of the “four-hour workweek”: scaling a big business requires major work ethic, leadership, and team focus.
• Lifestyle business vs. scaling—align expectations accordingly.
  Quotes:
  • "When you are growing a business and scaling... there is no such thing [as a four-hour workweek]." – Justin Colby (33:49)
  • "I've seen a lot of people chase the lifestyle businesses and... it doesn't work out." – Bobby Kough (34:23)

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10. Marketing & Operations at Scale (35:22–40:50)

• Markets: St. Louis, Little Rock, Wichita—each providing chunk volume, similar asset profiles.
• Channels: Six-figure marketing spend each month, mix of TV, direct mail, radio, branding (billboards, wrapped cars).
• Direct Mail: Rely heavily on REI PrintMail. Systematic testing, buy-box tuning, leveraging vendor expertise.
• Team: Run a 20-person org, focusing on developing high-performers, but cautions about turning top salespeople into managers (it can harm both revenue and morale).
  Quotes:
  • "When I was saying earlier like the hardest part of this... it's people." – Bobby Kough (39:37)
  • "We took our, our top performers... turning them into managers... [then] revenue dropped... everybody was unhappy." – Bobby Kough (40:13)

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11. 2026 Outlook & Leadership Philosophy (41:08–42:58)

• Execution focus: Bobby aims to ramp up what's already working—double down on their sales and marketing machine, but lead people better.
• Model mix: Wholesale is always priority, but flips, wholetails, and buy-and-hold continue where they make sense.
• Driving differentiation through seller-first approach and making people central to business strategy.

Quote:
"Do we truly live by this idea that we're putting sellers first? ...It goes back to people. It’s leading people well. That’s kind of the 2026 focus." – Bobby Kough (42:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Clear and reload" as an actionable mental reset for entrepreneurs (03:29–07:17).
• On humility & learning:
  “I could have just tried to go by myself. I actually made the decision to go and work for somebody that had a hundred plus houses already. So he's my now partner.” – Bobby Kough (26:31)
• On the four-hour workweek myth:
  “What a fucking crock of shit, by the way. When you are growing a business... there is no such thing.” – Justin Colby (33:49)
• On scaling and mentorship:
  “This helped my trajectory by at least five years, at least...” – Bobby Kough (30:30)
• On turning top performers into managers (and why you shouldn’t):
  “We made the, the age old mistake of taking your top performers and turning them into managers... revenue dropped, everybody was unhappy.” – Bobby Kough (40:13)

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Segment Timestamps

• [01:24] – Intro/background
• [02:52–07:17] – The “clear and reload” mindset: sports psychology to entrepreneurship
• [07:46–10:41] – Transition out of the military; COVID as a catalyst
• [14:58–22:48] – First deals: wins, mistakes, and learning criteria
• [22:54–26:31] – Finding deals on MLS & relationships with agents
• [26:31–32:16] – Working for a mentor, scaling rapidly, advice on paid learning
• [32:16–35:13] – Business realities, ego, and lifestyle vs. scale
• [35:22–40:50] – Marketing at scale, operations, team structure, management pitfalls
• [41:08–42:58] – 2026 vision: doubling down, team culture, seller-first mentality
• [43:38–44:28] – Where to find Bobby (Instagram: @BobbyKough; The Knock Podcast)

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Connect with the Guest

• Instagram: @BobbyKough
• Podcast: The Knock Podcast (faith-based discussions and guest testimonies)

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Final Takeaways

• Success in real estate comes as much from resilience, self-awareness, and willingness to learn—as from tactics and strategy.
• "Clear and reload" is a simple but powerful practice for bouncing back from setbacks or rejection in any business.
• Building a large business requires letting go of ego, focusing on people and systems, and understanding the difference between leadership and management.
• If you want to scale, consider learning by working for or with the best, not just going it alone.
• Marketing fundamentals remain key, but innovations in team structure and culture are the levers for breakthrough growth.

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For aspiring real estate entrepreneurs and seasoned operators alike, this episode delivers a blueprint—both psychological and practical—for scaling your investment business with grit, humility, and clarity.

Transcript

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[Justin Colby]

What is up the science of flipping family. My guest today is phenomenal. Not only did he graduate from army, not only did he play football at West Point, he's done well over a thousand deals in his entrepreneur journey as a real estate investor. Bobby Koh is here. What's up, dude, man?

[Bobby Koh]

Thanks for having me on.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, no, I love that you're already representing. Football season just passed. It was big for me. I'm sure it was big for you, but I love that you're already representing.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is. This is pretty much majority.

[Justin Colby]

That's your uniform.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, exactly.

[Justin Colby]

I love that. The cool thing about us as entrepreneurs and what we do, like, even when we're on Zoom these days, it's become so acceptable to just be us. To be. You know, I think Gary V kind of made this a point. Like, be who you are. Be transparent. Be authentic. Like Bobby and Justin don't wear suits, everybody. We just don't do it.

[Bobby Koh]

No, no. I would prefer not to.

[Justin Colby]

By the way, just as a side note, did army do very well this year? I don't know. I'm genuine.

[Bobby Koh]

No, no, this. This season was a little bit of a rebuild. It wasn't the season we had last year. Last year. Last year was phenomenal.

[Justin Colby]

And then he. I actually thought I was like, dude, I think you guys crushed it. But that was last year, not this year.

[Bobby Koh]

Yep. Last year only loss was to. In season loss was to Notre Dame. Then, of course, we lost to Navy, which was an upset. This year was about a.500 team. We. We did make a bowl game, so a little better than.500, but looking forward to next year. There you go.

[Justin Colby]

That's right. Next year is about to happen. So there's that. You know what? Let's talk about that real quick, because I think everyone has to have a short memory in the entrepreneur space. I talk a lot about entrepreneur beyond just real estate and coming from going to army, coming from playing football at West Point. Talk to us a little bit about your mindset as an entrepreneur, because I believe just like a great quarterback, just like the Tom Brady, you throw an interception, that is over in 10 seconds, you're onto the next offensive series. Right? Talk to us. The mindset of an entrepreneur and even more so of a real estate investor. It's not always. It's not always puppy dogs and rainbows out here.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, absolutely, man. It was really, really cool. I. I had the. The benefit of, you know, going to West Point, playing football. We had sports psychologists that we would work with. And one of the biggest things that I learned is exactly what you're hitting on is kind of that clear and reload. Like, that was. That was kind of the concept. I even got it down to a point when I was playing where my clearing mechanism was like the Velcro on my gloves.

[Justin Colby]

Right.

[Bobby Koh]

So.

[Justin Colby]

So you would actually have a physical. I don't know what it would be.

[Bobby Koh]

Act.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. That would clear the game. You'd Velcro all your gloves, like, rip on, rip off, rip on, rip put like that was your way to reset.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah, that. That was like my mental cue, if you will. Yeah. I, you know, had my Lyman gloves on, and if I had a bad play or, Or I just needed to just kind of reset, I had that clearing mechanism, you know, un. Unlatching them, tighten them back up. So you had that physical sensation as that reminder, like, game on, baby. Yeah, dude. I, I actually in. In. And. And it. You're right, correlates and connects to the entrepreneur space. So. Well.

[Justin Colby]

Right.

[Bobby Koh]

Like, there's, there's times, especially in real estate, so what I Do is. Is direct to seller home purchases. So, man, the amount of times that I get rejected, it's, you know, it's pretty frequent. So I have to have those kind of reset and reload cues in my mind now. They're much different. I'm not walking around wearing football gloves. That would be kind of weird.

[Justin Colby]

I mean, maybe you should. I mean, they can't see you. Those homeowners aren't seeing you.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah, maybe, But. But we've gotten to the point where I've. I've talked to my guys who are. Who are on the acquisition side that are running and gunning, you know, buying houses. They either have a song, a scent, some. Something along those lines. That. That is kind of like their. Their clear mechanism. And we want it. We want it to be tied to the five senses. I know this is a little weird, kind of nerdy, you know, psychology stuff, but tying it to the five senses allows them to like, oh, okay, hey, I got. I gotta decompress. I gotta let whatever just happened go on to the next one.

[Justin Colby]

So you had a team psycholog. Was it a sports psychologist? Team psych. Well, I mean, by definition, what were they?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah, I would say just sports psychologists.

[Justin Colby]

They were teaching you guys as athletes, y. The way to reset your mind, reset your frame. Reset is connect something, some level of activity. Could be a scent, could be your gloves. I can't imagine much visual, but, like, something could be something you touch, you know, slap your helmet, whatever that creates your reminder to reset. Next play is the next play. Forget about the past. Yeah, essentially, I'm boiling it down. I'm sure there's plenty more, but.

[Bobby Koh]

Well, no, I mean, dude, that's. That's. That's in a nutshell. That's what it is.

[Justin Colby]

I love that. And. And what do they call that?

[Bobby Koh]

I mean, we. We just called it clear. Clear and reload.

[Justin Colby]

Clear. Yeah, that's great. I think, by the way, anyone listening right now? Take that. Like, I don't care if you're in real estate or not. Like, do that. I think that that pertains a lot in. Even in life, right? Frustrating moments, hectic moment. Like, clear and reload. Like, reset yourself. So, dude, that's massively valuable. I'm. I'm even going to take that as something to, you know, as a father of two and running multiple businesses and a husband and like, fur, you know, it's like, all right, clear and reload. I love that, dude. See this. This is why I have this podcast. Good stuff like this already comes out awesome. Yeah. Well, talk to me, go ahead.

[Bobby Koh]

No, I was going to say as a father, I mean that's, that's a huge application point. You know, being a father, the chaos of, of kids and.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, clear and reload.

[Bobby Koh]

Be present. Clear and reload.

[Justin Colby]

Oh, 100, 100. Especially because my five year old daughter is just, we're in it. She, she just wants all the things, wants all the attentions. I have a two year old son like hey wait, look at me. Right? So it's just like, all right, be present. Listen, let's talk about the journey. You know, you graduate army, you have a great football, West Point, all this kind of stuff. Let's jump into the real estate space. What got you into real estate versus probably having a, a plethora of opportunities or options.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah. So you know, did the typical, hey, you graduated West Point, you commissioned as an officer. I was very much like, I was trying to plan my future while I was at West Point. So I intentionally branched engineers. So my whole thought process was hey, I'm going to pick something that is going to set me up for a good job once I get out of the military. I had, I had no intentions on being a career guy, a journeyman if you will. I wanted to do my five, six years, get out. So engineering. I saw the path, I was like, hey, I mean I can get a plethora of good high paying jobs. That was kind of my focus. Covid hits. And I was stationed at Fort Leonardwood in Missouri. That's just where engineer, if you're an engineer, you're going to find yourself at Fort Leonard Wood. And they came up with a really interesting rule that anybody that had a kid that was one year or younger sent home, didn't matter what you were doing, didn't matter how essential you were to whatever was going on on post, they sent you home because at that time they just, yeah, they didn't know how the, the virus could affect children. So I was an instructor at the time. I was teaching new lieutenants coming in. I was a captain and I spent about a year just doing absolutely nothing. I started building chicken coops, gardens. Like I was like, man, I gotta fill my time, right? Drinking and doing stuff like that started to become very unproductive very quickly.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, I, but by the way, I don't, I mean not that you're self judging, I, I would say 99% of society was that like maybe that's extreme. Like 90 plus percent of society was like, I don't know, the world's in it like everything just became like, I don't really know. So like again, drinking more often than you normally would or, or building chicken. I love that. Building chicken coops. Right. Where it's like, yeah, at that moment, if, if everyone is listening and went through co as an entrepreneur or whatever the case, like, everything was an unknown. So it's kind of like, I don't know, I'm gonna do this today or I'll do this today or I'm gonna, you know, who cares if I have a cocktail at 2pm on a Wednesday? Because really, I don't even know what the hell. Like the world could end tomorrow. So whatever. Who cares? No, that's, that's normal.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was the mindset, you know? And I tried to justify it as, as like, hey, what is going to make things sustainable if the world doesn't?

[Justin Colby]

Sure.

[Bobby Koh]

Hey, build a really big chicken coop with a lot of chickens. Hey, I got something I could trade with.

[Justin Colby]

That's right.

[Bobby Koh]

So I started doing that and then I realized, okay, man, I'm sitting here with my family. I gotta, I got a newborn son. I need to start focusing on things that are going to set my, my family up for success long term. I, I started diving into bigger pockets.

[Justin Colby]

Sure.

[Bobby Koh]

No, you know, bigger pockets and rich dad, poor dad. That combination has got a lot of real estate folks.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Bobby Koh]

Go on. So started doing that and then, and then I, I just took a leap pretty quick. What, what I've, what I've recognized is 0 to 1 is, is kind of like where I, I like to live.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Bobby Koh]

In terms of like implementation. I'm, I'm. That's, that's my sweet spot. Just anything after that, I'll, I'll pass the ball to somebody else.

[Justin Colby]

And now how did you learn that? Because I think there's a lot of visionaries. Right. So we would consider you a high D, high starter, high visionary. Like whatever metric you're rating this by. Right. There's. But how did you have to end up learning that? Because that usually takes a, A long time for someone to realize like their strength and then their weakness and then give the, the give away the control. Like, yes, it's my weakness, but I'm going to keep it on because it's my business and, and no one loves it more. And I love it. And it's my. But dude, the maturity level, the, the emotional eq. Right. To be able to say I suck at the operational. I would rather give up money. Pay someone to do this.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah.

[Justin Colby]

Because they'll do it better than me. Where that. Where do you learn that? Was that from college? Was it from the military? Was it just like you literally have that good of an emotional intelligence?

[Bobby Koh]

No, no, I would definitely say it's not that. No, I. I think so. I didn't really learn it in the military. I didn't really learn it in college because you had to be detail oriented in the army, you had no option.

[Justin Colby]

Right.

[Bobby Koh]

Like, you had to totally. You had to rough through it, especially as an officer, you know, planning missions, all that stuff. Really, it was with some just awareness of some of the things that you talked about, some of those tests. And I think it was also just, hey, what. What got me fired up.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Bobby Koh]

And. And what crushed me from. From just a. Morale and not to focus too much on. On emotions because emotions could, you know, they're. They're indicators. Right. Like, you don't live and die by your emotions. But for me, if I were to go back to my. To younger Bobby and say, hey, this is the way to figure this out, I'd say, hey, it's like, what do you get fired up by? And what is. What is absolutely draining to you?

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. Yeah. So did a coach give you that or mastermind like that come from somewhere? Because there's just so many, especially in our real estate space, so many people keep all the responsibility and they're burnt out, they're frustrated. They really suck at one component of it. It could be even be sales. Right now, the challenge is we'll get here about what your business looks like. But the challenge is, I would urge most people to stay in the sales role longer than they want. A lot of people aren't good salesmen. A lot of people don't like it. They feel like it's awkward and weird and uncomfortable. I get all that. But the challenge is that's where you actually make your money. Yeah. And when you start to outsource that before you're really ready, then the business really kind of has some sort of glass ceiling because you didn't conquer that one thing. But anyways, I say that to say, like, did a coach give you this is it. Are you part of any masterminds?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah. Yeah. So. So we're part of a. The collective genius man. One of the things that we. That we really enjoy to do, myself and my partners, we like to reinvest in education.

[Justin Colby]

Yep.

[Bobby Koh]

So I, I can't attribute to a. To one specific coach, but we've heard that over time, you know exactly what you're talking about. Finding that sweet Spot of when to delegate, like, when to start, you know, building the organization. I think everybody experiences challenges there. And the first part is being aware of, hey, being vulnerable and being able to look in the mirror and say, look, I'm not Superman. I suck at the, you know, pushing things into the, the goal line or, or, you know, to the finish line, whatever it is. And I need to get somebody else that could do that.

[Justin Colby]

So talk to us about your starting in real estate, and then I want us to compare it to where you are today. Right. So I want to take everyone listening right now on this journey. Bobby is done, right? Yeah. So Covid happens, you jump into real estate. I think that's kind of where we ended. Like, all right, I'm going to do this thing.

[Bobby Koh]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

How did you start? What were you doing? How are you finding leads? Who was a part of your team, if anybody were you wholesaling, fix and flip? Like, give us the rundown there. And then I want to bridge the gap of, like, dude, you did 300 deals last year, brother. Like, you are a stud. Right? Officially. So let's go from there.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah. So, so start off with the. With the intent to flip. I was just like, hey, you know, race capital. I didn't. I was an army. Army officer. You know, you can look up online what an army officer in. In 2018 was making. It was. It was good enough to sustain, but I, I. I had a higher, bigger ambition, so build capital was kind of my focus. I really was just linked up with the realtor, Kind of went like the very traditional route. And I saw a house that was foreclosure on auction, and it hadn't sold yet. I think it went through auction, didn't get what it needed, and it was just sitting there as a listing. And I offered, I think, 20 or 30,000 under the Ask price. The agent comes back, and he's like, dude, they never, ever accept. These two hours later, hey, guess what? They accepted it. So I was like, cool. I have my first house now. I was partnered with just a friend. She's still a friend of this day, but, yeah, I just, I was in a course. So I was around a lot of different captains, and I found one girl. I was like, hey, do you want to do real estate? She was like, yeah. I was like, all right, let's do real estate. And then a week later, she's like, hey, I didn't know we were doing real estate that quickly. So we partner on it, and then. And then we start working on it. Pretty standard flip three bed, one bath. Get into it, make about 20, 25 grand. And. And it's like, wow. Okay, number one, it wasn't that hard. Like, this is. This is the ego talking, right? First, first deal, success, ego. It wasn't that hard, man. If I do this 10 times a year, like, I'm starting to count the money. I'm like, okay, going from my army salary to this or supplementing it, it's like, this is starting to look pretty good. That. That false confidence led to immediate mistakes. Right. Right after. So we close on that house, we get that one. So it's like, okay, now, now this, this my buddy Jen, she's like, all right, let's go. Like, let's rock and roll. And I proceed to go by a absolute dumpster fire of a house thinking that I was like Chip and Joanna Gaines. I could fix anything. I was doing probably about 50% of the work myself at this time. And I buy this house that was built in like the early 1900s. And it. It looks like a house that you would see on a scary movie. And I decided to buy it. I still own it to this day. Over time, real estate, that's the best part.

[Justin Colby]

The best part is I got this one. I'm going to end up holding this one. I. Listen, all of us have that story, so please don't feel bad. I bought a home at auction that literally when you walk to the home, it was a 2,300 square foot home, you could push the whole home and it would start to wobble because it basically was like four, four by fours holding up Sheetrock.

[Bobby Koh]

So. Yep. Yeah, a lot of foundation work on that one. So, yeah, took some lumps. But again, you know, that's the beauty of real estate, man. It's like you can make a mistake and then if you hold onto it for long enough, just mitigate some risk, it's going to pay off.

[Justin Colby]

There's no doubt. And I want to talk about the taking lumps, like, first of all, to go do your first deal, make 25 grand. What I tell people, that creates two things. So I've been coaching for 13 years. What I try to help people do is create certainty and confidence. And there's a difference. Certainty is you are now very clear that you can do this. Yeah. Confidence is now what propels you to do more of it. Right. And so you gain certainty and probably overconfidence. Right. Because it was easy and you profited so fast and it wasn't this crazy hurdle and then you bit off more than you can too. Right. And so just like anyone, you know, in my seat after 20 years and the scars that I get to wear to help someone like a bobby or any of you, don't go. Don't go too fast. Right. Like, the lessons I've had to learn in the last even handful of years is I had a really large goal that I knew I was capable of, so I was running as fast as I possibly could. But by moving fast with speed, for no real apparent reason but my own ego, it harmed me. Right. I. I had financial losses, and it wasn't because I couldn't or whatever the case was. It was because when you're moving that fast, you're not really paying attention to the nitty gritty and the things that you need to. And you start to force square pegs and round holes and, you know, take flyers on deals. Oh, that's easy. I know that area. That'll be. But all of a sudden you have a 15,000, $18,000 foundation issue, which totally blows the deal apart, et cetera. So speed isn't always your best friend. In a lot of cases, I believe in speed, that you should be do that. And obviously you got well around this, you're crushing it. And, you know, but a lot of people, they. They over adjust for confidence, like, oh, I could do this at a big level. And, and just like you said, you know, they miss some things. Yeah, but you're right, you know, so what was the mindset that, you know, you take the lumps, like, how do you get through that? How do you get through the mindset of taking a lump and keep going? There's so many people out there that quit. So many, I can't tell you. Like their second, their third deal, they lose money and they're like, dude, I'm. I don't know if I can do this.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's good. Even. Even reflecting on that now, sitting here talking to you. Yeah, it would have been really easy to quit. You know, I. I just, Just had my son, and I'm spending almost every waking hour at this house trying to be a contractor. So I got my wife complaining, you know, the, the finances are financials on the deal or falling apart. I think, I think, you know, for me, it was. It was a little bit of, Of. Of stubbornness. And, and honestly, I think it's pulling back from a lot of that just training. I think it became part of who I am to clear and reload. And I was like, okay, well, hey, you know, the first one Just because this one's bad doesn't negate what happened the first time. Right. So, so how can I be more diligent and focus on making sure that that first one is repeatable? Right. And, and, and it was, it was. Honestly, it was pretty easy to solve. It's like, hey, let's maybe not buy a house that was built in the early 1900s. First. First off, right?

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, that's, that's a big one for all of you out there. Probably stay away. Unless they are literally your sweet spot. You're in them. Like, there are people that do very well at that. So I don't want to be so black and white. I get it. You're in New York, you're in Jersey, you're in Philly. And these older, Ohio. Right. Like, everything's built in 1910, 1920, 1930. But barring that, I would tell you, if you're any middle America, east coast, west coast, stick to the 50s, 60s, 70s, or higher. Like, you just are gonna, you're. There's still gonna be problems, but you'll find less of them.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah. For, for sure. And to say all that, like, it was a, A, a change in, in my process, right? It was like, okay, hey, I gotta create a little bit of a criteria. I gotta give myself left and right limits so I don't go off the rails and buy a bunch of. One of my partners calls. He calls them Boo Radley houses. Right? So. So I don't buy a whole, whole bunch of those. So. Yeah, man, I think it was.

[Justin Colby]

That's a great book reference, by the way.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, that's all him. That's all Jimmy Vreeland. I, I, that was. None of that was me. But yeah, no, I, I think, I think just, you know, taking it, because looking back on it, it's like, man, I'm so glad I took those lumps. I, I also realized I'm not a contractor. I don't want to be a contractor.

[Justin Colby]

Right.

[Bobby Koh]

So, So I started being okay with paying contractors to do the job because, you know, that that was my initial, you know, barrier and, and why I wanted to do the work. I would get a bid and I'd be like, are you kidding me? Like, this person's gonna, you know, they're gonna charge me 30 grand at the time.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Bobby Koh]

I'm like, oh, I can do it in for 15.

[Justin Colby]

Where. Where were you finding these deals? Like your first 10 deals?

[Bobby Koh]

How did you find them in 2018, 2019? I was finding them on just MLS. Yeah, just MLS. I mean, even now, there are still, now our business models completely change. We'll get into that. But even now there, there are still good deals that, that pop on the mls.

[Justin Colby]

There are great deals. It is underestimated, undervalued, and it is shocking to me because if you just know how to work with realtors and what you're looking for, what I would always impress upon people is it's not the listing itself that you're going to really have a big care for. Yeah, you make your offer. What you really want to do is people do deals, meaning the agent is the relationship. You need to be able to work because they will bring things to market or give you insight on deals that are coming to market that you'll get first shot on in, in the blue moon. You'll be able to make an offer, a low offer on a listing and it will work. You'll probably do a handful a year, every year. But if you're ever going to get to a level of scale and you want to do, you know, one or two every single month from the mls, that's very viable. But it comes from the people, the agent in yourself, building the relationship and network. But man, the MLS always has deals. You got to find them, you got to be a good negotiator and you got to show why your number's where it's at.

[Bobby Koh]

Well, dude, I, I can give you a little bit of, of, of a behind the curtain. Just, just real quick. I mean, so we're, we're direct to seller. So we spend, you know, well into the six figures per month on marketing.

[Justin Colby]

Right.

[Bobby Koh]

The amount of people that I talk to that maybe were we are 5 to 10k off. And, and my, my numbers are, I gotta pay. I got a team of 20. Like we, we gotta pay a lot of people, right? So, so I'm buying houses generally speaking, like deeper than what Bobby, who was kind of solopreneur flipping would need to buy a house at the amount of people that I can't come to an agreement on because of a 5, 10, 15k difference that go and list their house for just that little bit of an incremental change in price. It's, I would say it's at least 25%.

[Justin Colby]

100. Yes. I don't even want to say 100%. Yeah. There is this weird layer of like, man, five to five to ten grand makes or break a deal. But I will tell you, staying firm on your number is going to save you more money, more heartache, right? It is those five or ten grand that you realize at the end of the deal you would have needed because seller concessions or, or something or you know, the appraisal comes in short that five or ten grand. I can't tell you how often that would have been everything to the deal being profitable or not profitable. Right. And so stay making that hard line. I know a lot of you guys and me, we want the deal. We're deal junk it like oh my God, five grand. Who cares? I'm just, let's go. Yeah. And then the appraisal comes in five grand short. And I'm like, oh my God. Right. That is definitely the deal breaker. Now let's fast forward a little bit. Right? MLS got you the first 10 deals, maybe more. But let's just say the first 10. I, I echo that. I think anyone kind of starting out, I think there's deals all over the MLS that you just got to be patient and you got to be have fortitude and you gotta. You know. I started on the MLS too. I was calling agents, 100 agents a day, every single day. I was living on a couch. I was broke, busting, disgusted. I just would do it six days a week and everyone else would do a five. So I had one full day a week that I would do more than everyone else, which got me our deals. Right. And so I'm firmly believe if you're starting, the MLS is a great place. Now let's fast forward. Bobby Koh. 300 deals a year. Well over a thousand deals in the career. What does that business model look like?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, well, so, so I want to touch on something that I think is. It's just an important part of the story. I did that, I did my initial several deals and they were all good deals. Like, like with the exception of the old house, they were all pretty solid deals. Then I, I made the decision. So I was at this pivotal point where I could have just tried to go by myself. I actually made the decision to go and work for somebody that had a hundred plus houses already. So he's, he's my now partner. But I, I decided to stay in the, the Missouri area. I had a job recruiter hit me up and he's like, hey man, Jimmy Breland's out here in St. Louis, which is about two hours away. And he, he's doing real estate. He has a property management company. He's buying up a bunch of rentals. Do you want to have a conversation? Sat down, had a conversation with him. I was like, yeah, like I'll definitely come work for you now. My wife wasn't too happy because she wanted to go to Arizona. That was kind of like the plan, which on a weekend like this weekend, it would have been nice to be in Arizona.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, I bet.

[Bobby Koh]

But, yeah, so it was, it was a, it was an easy sell to my wife because I was like, hey, look like I've already had some decent success in real estate. If I spend two years learning from a guy that's doing hundreds of deals already, I'm going to be able to take this. And the sky's the limit, right? So fast forward. I'm, I'm, I'm working for Jimmy. I'm an acquisition rep, so I'm solely focused on the sell side at the time. And, and we're, we're getting after it. We're. We're starting to grow. Several years down the road, we, we end up partnering and really start building out this direct to seller model. And, and, and really, a lot of the, A lot of the shift in focus. I know your question was, you know, hey, going from the, the beginning, several deals to, to now, like, what's changed? It's really been kind of the model and, and turning what was kind of a hustle, I think, for both of us at different times in our lives into a business. Right? So, so direct to seller is kind of our bread and butter. We go out. Jimmy has a construction company and a property.

[Justin Colby]

Well, I want to, I want to pause. Like, everyone hear what Bobby just said. There's a lot of people out there, like, I need to learn, and most of them paid for coaching, and I love that. And I'm a coach, and I know you guys have your thing, like, yeah, fine. But, man, like, there's. There is another door, right? Like, everyone goes through the front door, right? Us coaches, we're great at marketing. We're everywhere. Hey, come, blah, blah, blah. But you decided, hey, why don't I actually genuinely learn and get paid to learn? Yeah. Like, how brilliant is that? Everybody? Like, he didn't say, let me go cut Justin Colby a $25,000 check for coaching. He said, actually, I can go get paid to learn how Justin Colby does his actual business because I can go work for him and get paid by doing deals. Yeah, guys, think about that. Guys and girls, like, I'm all about coaching. I, I invest hundreds of thousands every single year, just like you do, Bobby, and masterminds and coach. I do that because I always want to get to the next level, and I'm unemployable. But, you know, for those of you that like maybe coaching isn't reasonable for you. Like, go and find Bobby and work for Bobby right now. Go work for me. Go work for so many other people and learn the business by doing the business under their protection, under their advisement, under their coaching, under their. And then you get paid for it. Yeah. So I didn't want to just skip over that. Like, that is just not enough people even think that way. So that's awesome.

[Bobby Koh]

It's a fast pass. It truly is. And you know, I get it, man. Especially in our culture today, everybody wants to be the entrepreneur. Everybody wants to be the guy or the gal.

[Justin Colby]

Right.

[Bobby Koh]

I don't want to work for anybody else. Like, I want to be the one to do it. And, and absolutely, like, I like, like most, most of my friends, that's, that's what they ended up doing. But I could tell you, you know, you hear it from Hormozi, like he, he'll, he'll mimic the same exact thing. He'll echo the same thing. Go find somebody that knows what they're doing, Go work for them, learn for them, get paid, all that stuff. I, I think if I were looking at things and of course this is a little bit of a crystal ball guess, but I would say that this helped my trajectory by at least five years, at least in, in terms of, of the amount of deals that we're doing, what I'm bringing home to my family, I, I think it was a five year. I, I shaved off.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. And that should be right. And, and I love that because most people again, just try to say they can do it themselves. And the reality is we all know life gets in the way. And even if they have the best intentions, what's the age old saying of the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Like they might have intentions, but until you actually meet rubber meets the road, get on the field, do the thing. In my opinion, doing it under someone's umbrella to be able to learn that way, to speed this whole thing up. The reason why you buy coaching or invest in coaching, I should say, and the reason why you'd go work for a high driven, high volume company, same concept, speed up your learning curve so you don't have to hit the speed bumps that you normally would doing yourself.

[Bobby Koh]

Absolutely.

[Justin Colby]

I've done this for almost 20 years. I have all the scars. You guys don't have to wear the scars. Right? Like there's no reason to. I can just teach you or Bobby can just work with you. Like, there's no reason for people to be doing this alone without having someone holding their hand.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, it, what you said there is. I think it's the most rewarding. It's also the most challenging thing to do. And, and I think the reason why it's the most challenging is man, like ego. Ego has to go away.

[Justin Colby]

Right? No doubt.

[Bobby Koh]

Working, working with other people. I, I think that's why there is, there's so many people that want to be solopreneurs is, is because it's. I don't want anybody else telling me how to do this. I don't want to, you know, be accountable to anybody else. And dude, admittedly it is the hardest part about this, this journey.

[Justin Colby]

There's no doubt. But, but at the end of the day, listen, I find it to be crazy that someone's willing, they sign up for a job that says on, on the job ad 40 hours a week, 150 grand a year, but they themselves know they're working 60, sometimes 80 hours a week killing themselves. They're still making 150 grand a year. Meanwhile, they can take on their own journey, put it on their own shoulders and work 80 hours a year and make a million dollars a year or 80 hours a month or a week and make a million dollars a year for sure. Because their own and they can execute and they have the work ethic but instead they get in the entrepreneur space and they see all the bullshit on social media. They go, oh, I want to build my life where I'm on the beach. I want to work 20 hours a week, 30 hours a week. I want a four hour workweek. Remember that book?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah.

[Justin Colby]

What a fucking crock of shit, by the way.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah.

[Justin Colby]

When you are growing a business and scaling a bit, there is no such thing. Not if you're going for something big. If you're okay making 200 grand a year. Is there a world online probably where you could work four hours a week? Probably be some Internet marketer or you know, trade crypto or date. Fine. But I just want everyone to realize like don't shortchange yourself because of your ego. And you want to have this picture perfect vacation, backpack lifestyle.

[Bobby Koh]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

Then you're going to limit how much money you can make.

[Bobby Koh]

Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, I mean I, I've seen a lot of people chase the lifestyle businesses and, and it, it doesn't work out. Um, no. I have some buddies that exactly what you said. Yeah. Like hey, you can do two, three, four deals and if you're, if you're, you know, funding a, a staff of one and a ba and that's what you want to do, you know, to each.

[Justin Colby]

Thank God. Good for you. I love it. If I could empower. Bobby can empower more of you to do one or two deals a month and have an executive assistant or a va and you. And you're working eight hours a week and you do one or two deals. Yes. That is awesome. But then don't complain or bitch about not making a million dollars here. That's all I would ask. Like.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah.

[Justin Colby]

Then live that life. You're crushing it. That is the life you are trying to build by design. Just don't complain about wanting more. Right, Right. So.

[Bobby Koh]

Absolutely.

[Justin Colby]

What? So give me your business model. Sorry, we got off on this tangent about, like, learning from you, but give me your business model. Now you're spending six figures a month. What kind of marketing are you doing?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, so we are. So. So we're in three markets. We're in St. Louis, Little Rock and Witchita.

[Justin Colby]

Little Rock, I heard, is awesome.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Justin Colby]

I mean, a market to be investing in wholesaling, fix and flipping and rentals.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah. Sorry, say that again.

[Justin Colby]

Just as Little Rock being awesome as a market to be buying rentals, fix and flipping and wholesaling.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah. Really? Really. All. All three of those markets are very similar. The only difference is msa, like, the sides of the. The, you know, areas. So. So, yeah, we're operating in those three markets. We're spending a good bit of money on. On tv, direct mail, radio. This year we're really starting to kind of up our branding. So we're doing, you know, billboards. I have a. I have a wrapped car sitting in my driveway. Just some of those things. Just to kind of get our name out there.

[Justin Colby]

Because we see more. Yeah, yeah. Like, have you seen Mark Spain's billboards everywhere?

[Bobby Koh]

I have not.

[Justin Colby]

So he's like a huge buy anyways. So I say that just for branding sake, having all that stuff works. I love direct. What are you guys doing with direct mail? I absolutely love REI print mail. I believe you guys are using REI print mail. You can find them anywhere. REI print mail. It'll also be in the below. Because I just. I'm a huge advocate of direct mail. It would just works all the time. Talk to me about your strategy with direct mail.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, I mean, our strategy is honestly, lean heavily on REI print mail.

[Justin Colby]

Good strategy. I like it.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, it's a great roi, man. It's been. What's cool about direct mail is I think it's. Especially if you're trying to do five, ten deals. A month. Like you're kind of in that, hey, I'm going to get going. Phase 100 deal. Mark. Direct mail is a requirement and it's, it's scalable. So you can, you can start off with it and then you can, you can scale it to where, hey, we're doing 300, we're chasing 500 this year and direct mail is going to be a huge attributor to, to that volume. But no, we're constantly adjusting buy box. You know data. Data is, is huge, especially across three different markets. Hey, what, what are the guys and gals seeing on the ground on the phone? We're adjusting our buy box with REI Printmo meeting with them very regularly and yeah man, just putting out pieces that you know we have a little test budget with them. Kind of let them play around with pieces and yeah, we just let the data tell us what works and keep doing more of it.

[Justin Colby]

The thing I love about Aria Premill for, for you guys probably I'm assuming you use their whole complete thing. But for me the complete thing is a game changer.

[Bobby Koh]

Right.

[Justin Colby]

So not only do they pull the data, show me the right data to send, but then they also have the answering service and the reason why for me at least and I would assume maybe for you guys, maybe not. But like I don't want the biggest operation with personnel. I've done that. I've had 28 people in my office. I've been there, I've done that. Yeah, I would encourage most people not to do that at all or anywhere close. I think most million to multimillion dollar companies can run off four people for. Right. And then the, the founder or two founders. Right. So whatever that looks like. But you shouldn't in my opinion have some robust crazy amount of people because you have places like REI PrintMail that have a call answering service attached to their service that is really affordable, really affordable. And they will give you actual leads right. Where your team isn't have to figure out is this person actually a lead or are they just more curious about what potentially the value of their home is? Right. Yeah, absolutely. I just love that service because it allows me to remove essentially two people that a lot like lead. I call them like lead managers. They're managing the leads. Right. That I remove them because this entire system of REI complete. Do you guys use it?

[Bobby Koh]

No. So, so we do not. Um, but, but man, I, I agree wholeheartedly with, with your advice right there. When I was saying earlier like the hardest part of this entire game, like it's people.

[Justin Colby]

That's an Indian business, by the way. It is not just real estate. It's. Being a manager and a leader at the same time is really hard.

[Bobby Koh]

It is.

[Justin Colby]

And so if you are a leader, I would, I, I just. Based on our conversation now, I think you're more of a leader than a manager.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah.

[Justin Colby]

And don't try to trick yourself into managing when you're not. I've made that mistake. Yeah. I was gonna manage and I just sucked at it because I'm more of the leader. I go show you how to do it. I'll be the first running down the mountain like Marcus Aurelius. Right. I will lead the troops, bro. If you need me to show you how to swing the damn sword, I'm out.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, dude, same. We've just, we just got off that very fun lesson. Trained. Re. Really recently we took, we took our, our top performers. We made the, the age old mistake of taking your top performers and putting them. Turning them into managers.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Bobby Koh]

And what happened as a result? Revenue dropped. Everybody was unhappy. We realized, oh, wow. Just because you're a top performer doesn't mean you're a very good manager.

[Justin Colby]

That's right.

[Bobby Koh]

So, dude, we. Yeah, last year, I would say beginning of last year. So about a year ago, uh, this time we, we were, we were kind of recovering from those bruises.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah. And, and that's. You know, you guys are a very impressive business. I think people are the hardest part of our business. And then if you can lean into smaller, a lot of times better because it's more profitable. Bigger is not always better because this ego driven.

[Bobby Koh]

Yep.

[Justin Colby]

There would be my 2 cents but. And you didn't ask for it. So it was unsolicited. Uh, talk to us about what you're doing today and then how you see this 20, 26 year going. Right. Are you making pivots? Are you adjusting? We just talked about leadership management. Are you spending more? Are you spending less? Are you focusing more on wholesale than fix and flip? Are you. What, what does that all look like for you right now?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, I mean, when I can wholesale, I'm going to wholesale. Like, I think that's, that's like, that's

[Justin Colby]

option number one every time, hands down.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, we, we will flip. We'll do wholetails, like light flips.

[Justin Colby]

We'll.

[Bobby Koh]

We'll do some buy and holds for sure. But what we're really trying to develop is just a sales and marketing. Just machine just. We're building our. One of the cool things that one of Our partners had Jimmy, he has a education platform that allows people to kind of buy into like this one stop shop. So construction, property management. You're a high net worth W2 employee, you come, hey, I need some tax, you know, write offs, buy some real estate. We try to handle that. Obviously we're continuing to build our local buying list. So. So that's, that's kind of where, where we'd like to go. Yeah, it's been the majority of our business so far. But 2026, man, it's. It's execution.

[Justin Colby]

Okay. More of the same executed a higher level.

[Bobby Koh]

I don't, I don't think there's a whole lot of external things to be concerned about right now. You know, I think, I think 25 and 26 are going to be very similar years.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah.

[Bobby Koh]

So for us, man, it's, it's. Hey, what are the things that help us stand out? Do we truly live by this idea that we're putting sellers first?

[Justin Colby]

Yep.

[Bobby Koh]

So then it goes back to people. It's leading people. Well that's kind of the 2026 focus, man.

[Justin Colby]

If you guys dial that in, I mean it's a, it's just a game changer. Right? The. The last thing. Unsolicited advice but like time to the, to the bigger picture. If you buy. If they're bought into the very bigger picture versus just a paycheck. Leading people makes it so much easier. Like overall revenue bonuses based around growth, equity. Maybe you start getting equity if you're a killer. X, Y and Z. Like tying people to your vision. They get bought in because now it's our vision and our vision is much more empowering for those individuals. And so 100 Bobby, this has been great. Everyone make sure you. First of all, where should everyone go Find Bobby.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, for. For kind of like the real estate stuff just at Bobby Co Instagram, I'm probably the most active.

[Justin Colby]

It is not co. It is K O u G H K O u g H And then Bobby, I know you also have a podcast, don't you?

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So I actually have a, a faith based podcast.

[Justin Colby]

Love it.

[Bobby Koh]

Where you know, we get, we get people on and they talk about testimony and. Yeah, that's called the Knock Podcast. If anybody. If that. If that's your cup of tea. It's ran by who's all.

[Justin Colby]

Yeah, the Knock KN O C K. Yep, the Knock Podcast. Bobby Ko is the host. So check that out as well. On, on all the platforms I'm sure brother. Keep doing your thing, man. Keep running fast. Focus on execution and happy to see you are just absolutely crushing it.

[Bobby Koh]

Yeah, thanks man. I appreciate you having me on. It was. It was fun.

[Justin Colby]

Hell yeah. That is Bobby Koh. I am Justin Colby. This is the science of Flipping. If this was helpful, share this with two of your friends. I'd appreciate it. See you on the next episode.

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[Bobby Koh]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe.

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[Bobby Koh]

Thank you for listening.