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- [00:01]
A
What's up the science Fleeting family? I am back with an incredible podcast. I make the argument that sales is senior to marketing. Most people think marketing is senior to sales because if you don't have leads, you can't sell them. But if you're a terrible salesperson, you have no process. Who gives a how many leads you have? So my guest today, Ben Mott Locker, is a self proclaimed nerd who's done thousands of transactions because he has a sales process like none other. What's up bro?
- [00:24]
B
What's up man? I love the introduction. If you're ever feeling down, jump on a podcast or somewhere where people introduce you and you're like, all right, cool. That's it. I'm that guy. That's it.
- [00:32]
A
Are that guy. And I'm happy to have you. So let's get into some of this. First of all, your background in real estate, you've done thousands and thousands of deals. You're a self proclaimed nerd, but you have a process that has been able to deliver all those deals because of the process.
- [00:47]
B
Yeah, I think I was blessed to come into a good size organization and then our commitment to grow and to build that bigger. I hate the word scale by the way. Avoid it mostly.
- [00:58]
A
Yeah.
- [00:59]
B
Most that's scaling chaos. But to build that bigger, we needed to create a system.
- [01:03]
A
Yep.
- [01:03]
B
And we're a sales organization. So we went from a little bit of that rogue really good sales guy here and there, high turnover, high profit, high chaos to how do we do more of this that's consistent, predictable and repeatable. And it was like, let's take everything that we love and we know about when a sale goes well and let's create a process, let's nerdify and build this said thing that we do on repeat and then we add people to it and it's copy and paste and then whatever more is for you, you can go and do that.
- [01:35]
A
Yeah, I've always made the argument, as I said at the beginning of this podcast, like I think sales is senior to marketing because if you're going to go out there and spend a whole bunch of money marketing, bringing a bunch of leads, but you don't have anyone who can execute on them, then you're literally torching money. So to me, focusing on processes of salesmanship, not just scripting, and I bet you agree on this, I don't believe it's just about the script. The script gives you a guideline of what to say, how to say it, some ideation of like the path you should take. I Believe more in the process of like sequentially taking the conversation down a path to get to the right destination. But focusing on sales can create a large organization or a small tight one. And what you deliver in our space of real estate really focuses on the sales process.
- [02:18]
B
Yeah, 100% agree. I made a Facebook post today that said the people ask all the time. Right. I'm sure they ask you, what's the first thing I should do? I want to get into investing. And the first thing you should do is get good at sales.
- [02:29]
A
Yeah, right.
- [02:29]
B
Like inherently someone is going to have a property or contact you about selling if you don't know how to sell them something to buy their house, to fill out your documentation and get that tangible piece of paper that says I have X, Y, Z. I see so many people and coming from me, I'm very objective and. Right. I'm a data guy, marketing guy, where it's like we'll do all of these little things over here that have nothing in correlation to what happens when we actually have to interact with somebody.
- [02:55]
A
What is the give me, you know, the process as you see right now and specifically to real estate. But I would argue based around your experience and your skill set, you can put the same five step process to any industry, any vertical, anywhere, as long as it's a process. Correct?
- [03:08]
B
Yeah, for sure. And it's. And it's an emotional based journey. If you can do it in housing, you can do it anywhere.
- [03:14]
A
Yeah.
- [03:15]
B
Because you take what is the most.
- [03:17]
A
Important, biggest decision of their life usually ever. Because historically speaking, there's not that many people that sell and buy homes. Historically. My father and his father. You buy a home, you essentially have it forever. Like my grandfather's been in this home for 60 years, maybe two.
- [03:32]
B
Starter home to the. The white picket fence. Ideal family home is your scale. That's right. Yep. So yeah, if you can crack that code of communicating with people and navigating that sale, man, you tone that down to selling widgets that are controllable and like not as emotional. I mean that's. You're off to the races.
- [03:50]
A
Walk me through your process.
- [03:51]
B
Yeah, so our process is really simple. We start with really building trust with someone. And you mentioned the word script. Again, one of the words, like I cringe at scale script. The S words are bad for me. You know, a framework, a talk track I think is a great place for people to learn and get experience. However, I believe the more you get stuck in the path of following something to guide your conversation, the less fluid it becomes. Like if you had a clipboard over there checking the boxes. We may miss some of the important details. To me, and it's not a one size fits all. So we always focus on, on building trust. And I'm not talking like, hey, man, your hat says dad gang. I like dad gang. Oh, cool. You got a coffee? I've had coffee before. That's awesome, right? Would you like to sell me your house?
- [04:37]
A
That's what people think is these days. They're like, oh, I'm building rapport. Oh, you have hair. I have hair, yeah. By the way, I don't have hair. Yeah, but you know what I mean? It's like that's what they think rapport is. That's not rapport. Commonality is not rapport.
- [04:48]
B
Yeah, but that's so surface level.
- [04:50]
A
Right?
- [04:50]
B
And it's like if you really want to build a connection with someone, I always say we start with the beginning. You have to build trust. And we start with the end, which is close for next steps. And typically we want to close for a contract. That's the next step we want to take. So if your conversation is about black coffee up front, and then I'm going to ask to buy your house at a discount so that I can do what I have to do with it at the right price, like, there is no linear connection and investors generally get emotional and we're a little bit reckless of entrepreneurs and we pick the pieces we like. We go to build a bear with emotions and we're like, oh, I like contracts, I like revenue. And then it's like we skip all of the things and you can't. Like, the math says it starts here and ends here and we have to do everything in between. So with that in mind, we, we build trust. We qualify and disqualify a lead pretty extensively so that you know, when you're spending your money, you're either a heck yes, we're in or a heck no, we're out. And I'm okay with the fact that to spend 500 bucks to have that conversation.
- [05:47]
A
So you're going tip to tail one call. Do you ever do a two part close?
- [05:51]
B
So we are, you know, we're boots on the ground. So, right. We have inside sales or set or closer model, inside sales and acquisitions. But we run the same sales process in both. And interestingly enough, it's the same process both times. And like that person is going to call in and learn about our services. Our close for next steps, there is an appointment to send out a home buying specialist. If you're Virtual the close there might be. Hey, you can. My acquisition agent will call you back. Or if it's a one call close, somewhere in that call there still needs to be that qualifying phase. And then you say okay, when this happens, now we're into like the right. The offer making.
- [06:30]
A
I like the two part close because I actually agree with it. The set of closing model. Even when I coach my students and I'm not a sales coach like you, when I just coach them on the real estate transaction, it's always a hey, let me get my senior underwriter. Let me give my senior acquisition specialist on the phone with you because I run everything virtual. So I don't have an in house boots on the ground. But that I believe is the best model and shockingly probably the biggest salesy type industry car sales runs the same model. And for some reason people want to be like, I'm going to take it from tip to tail one call. Like even if you just say excuse me while I go get my boss. Yep. You're essentially creating a two part close, just like the car industry.
- [07:12]
B
Yeah. It could be one one setting, one. It could be one call. But create that space.
- [07:16]
A
That's right.
- [07:17]
B
And, and there's a lot of reasons to do that. Right. One is create the space for where somebody says maybes. Imagine every time you said I need to think about it at the end and then you left. What if you would have created the space for them to think about it? So sometimes we need to do those things. Like why do you think a car manager goes and eats a donut in the back and gets his boss? Right. It's creating that space for you to emotionally get excited, work through the seller's remorse or the buyer's remorse at that point in time.
- [07:41]
A
And so let's speak, let's speak to two different people. One you're going to, we're going to talk to the person who's an in person business. They go belly to belly. Then let's talk about how you can do this over the phone virtually.
- [07:51]
B
Yeah.
- [07:52]
A
How do you create space belly to belly? I think the answer is shorter and easier.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah. We physically leave the house.
- [07:57]
A
Okay.
- [07:57]
B
Like it is, it is inherent part of our process to create space always. So our agent is in the house going through the things and they say, hey, whatever. The pattern interrupt looks like there to slow things down, to regain control. Justin, I almost feel like I'm moving too quick. Why don't we take a minute. Let me go out and call my manager to make sure I'm not missing anything. Why don't you take a second and talk to your significant other here and work through it. Or it shows up at the offer. Oh, that price. And we're stuck on price, man. Let me just check and see. Maybe my team can see something that I don't. I don't want to leave here today without doing everything I can. Let me run out to my car and.
- [08:32]
A
Right.
- [08:32]
B
Like, let me check back with the office and just check. Why don't you wave me back in when you're ready then so I don't even bug you. And then it's like, that's an amazing spot for somebody to be digressing with their. Their other party, their spouse. And then, yeah, man, come. Come on back in. Like, yeah, a very welcoming greeting to come back. So that pattern interrupt and creating that space is pretty easy in person.
- [08:51]
A
You already have a step before this and creating space from the setter to the actual acquisition man in the house. Right. I mean, that creates more space to say, hey, next step will be is we book an appointment that gives them husband, wife or husband or wife or whoever. Hey, let's talk about it before so and so shows up tomorrow. They're already creating space and already have thought process of where they need to be. Right. So you're doing it functionally in two different spaces. Correct. Now let's talk about the virtual business. Right. I coach mostly for the virtual business. Yeah. I do believe for most operations, if you're going to stay small, I would do it in your own backyard. However, you don't need to. Covid gave us all the blessings. You don't have to do anything in your own backyard anymore. Um, so I speak a lot more to this space. How do you create it virtually on the phone? What are some things that you can do to create the space for the seller?
- [09:36]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's almost similar. And I wouldn't be afraid, you know, whether it's you. You throw them on. Hold on mute, you know, you, you schedule a quick callback in two to three minutes, depending upon the. The strength of that relationship is the same where you're going to say, hey, I. I've, you know, I. I just want to make sure again, I'm not missing anything. Know. Let me go grab my colleague. He's sitting next to me. Do you mind if I just throw you on hold for 90 seconds and. Right. Just getting out of that flow while staying in an emotional state. Right. Like this is a very emotional psychological sale.
- [10:07]
A
Yeah.
- [10:08]
B
So we don't want to drift into tactics. And if you find yourself doing that at any point in time, I think probably one of the biggest objections we run into is price. When a, when a conversation starts going against like a battle of price, the best thing to do is to, to break that down and interject emotion into that and saying, oh my gosh, I, I feel like we're, we're stuck on the wrong thing. Why don't you give me just a second, let me go get, you know, some, a second set of eyes on this thing and then come back and start back off with more of an emotional conversation. We never want to be in a price battle. We, we lose those often as investors. When I say a number and seller says they want something else.
- [10:43]
A
That's right.
- [10:44]
B
It becomes an auction at that point in time.
- [10:45]
A
How do you pull in the emotion in these conversations? Right. If you, if, for example, you know, because the way I work REI live, which is my community, and we do calls every day. And so when I'm working with sellers, a seller might just say, hey, I'm not totally in need of selling. I own it free and clear. I have no loan. Right. Where you start to eliminate some of the pain financially. But I'm interested in potentially selling if I can get the right price. Something like that can be said 9 times out of 10 by sellers. How do you bring in the emotional factor on a conversation like that?
- [11:16]
B
Ask a lot more questions.
- [11:17]
A
Okay.
- [11:18]
B
I mean, just going down the path, we, we use the six connecting questions. Who, what, when, where, why, how go toddler mode. I've got two of them. Two and four right now. They ask a lot of the connecting questions.
- [11:29]
A
I'm in it.
- [11:30]
B
And then we say, you know, go three deep in each one of those. So when, when you tell me, and we just talked about building trust, that takes a little bit of time. Like when we're on the phone for four minutes, I can't say that we have a super deep level of trust on the call, but asking appropriate questions will tell you not many people are going to disclose the transparent, truthful and depth of information when you ask a surface level question. Yeah, we call those high impact questions with a low impact relationship. And regardless of if you're on the phone for four to 10 minutes, I would say that most of that is BS, you know, at best, until you really start getting through that. Like how many times does somebody say, hey man, I actually caught a felony, I'm in sheriff sale, give me 60 cents on the dollar and come out and bring me a check today.
- [12:14]
A
Right.
- [12:15]
B
Those don't happen. We find out that that kind of stuff happens. But like it's not going to happen on the beginning of the call. The best way to really find out true motivation is ask better questions. So if you're thinking about selling, you know, why are you thinking about selling? Okay, well, you know, I was just considering it. Well, what would that do if you did sell? What would happen if you didn't sell and then you know the price?
- [12:36]
A
So now you just went three into one. So why, so your, your point was who, what, when, why, how, where, where?
- [12:43]
B
Yeah.
- [12:43]
A
And then you go three layers in, three questions in on each of those.
- [12:46]
B
Yeah.
- [12:47]
A
And you'll get deep enough to have the emotional trigger somewhere along that path.
- [12:51]
B
Yeah. Cuz you're just, you're getting surface level answers. It's like price people, Consumers know two prices at best. Five minutes ago we said people sell one to two houses in their lifetime at best. We ask, what do you want for the house? Like what two numbers do you think people commonly know about their house? If you guessed what they bought it.
- [13:07]
A
For and what they want to sell it for?
- [13:09]
B
Maybe like, and that's zestimate at best. Maybe a mortgage, maybe a mortgage payoff.
- [13:14]
A
They look at what their mortgage is. Yeah.
- [13:16]
B
So when you ask that question, they're not going to sell it to you for what they bought it for. Likely they're probably not going to sell it to you for their mortgage payoff. So they're going to inherently go with the only other number they might know a little bit about, which is what zestimate told them it was. And then it's like we qualify all of our future opportunity at revenue based upon that question and take it at face value where it's like, okay, cool. Like we'd be the world's worst poker players if we treated lead management like we do that aspect of things.
- [13:45]
A
Yeah.
- [13:45]
B
And then it's like, well, even if they give you that answer, well, why do you want the 450 for it? Well, I got to, you know, pay off some debt. Okay, cool. Like, you know, what would that do for you? And how much do you need to pay off the debt? You can ask those questions like if you're going to go on this journey with somebody, we have to understand what we're solving.
- [14:01]
A
There's two questions I've always found in any. So I did door to door sales when I came out of college. Right. And that led into real estate brokerage back in 2007. We all know what happened 2008. I fell along with the real estate market. So I lost it all, but went directly into real estate investing rebuilt, you know, myself and my money and my bank account and my empire and whatnot. But I say this to say, I've always been in sales. I've never not been in sales. Door to door to real estate is all sales. There's two questions I have always found you've said it repeatedly. What would that do for you? Yeah. Right. What would that do for you? Any, any vertical. I don't care if you're selling credit card processing. You talk to a business owner of, hey, reducing your fees. What would that do for you?
- [14:44]
B
Yeah.
- [14:44]
A
Oh God. I would be able to save this. And then if I could save this. Right. What would that do for you? And the other thing is, what's the most important part to you about X meaning in our world is selling your home? Don't give me the price. But what is the most important part about selling your home, excluding the price?
- [15:01]
B
Yep.
- [15:01]
A
Then they think and they say, well, I could be next to my grandchildren or I could be whatever it brings in the emotional component for you to lean into for the emotional sale.
- [15:10]
B
And then you can push on that.
- [15:11]
A
Right.
- [15:11]
B
Like you'll start to be able to isolate. We talk about conditions and objections. An objection is a belief. A condition is something you can't move. So don't fight conditions. Right. Like if you owe 160 and you're. It is what it is. Like you're not changing that. If your objection is I want to net 20 grand at the end of it, we can work on that.
- [15:31]
A
Yeah.
- [15:31]
B
Because you owe 160 and we can't change that. And if it isn't worth 180, you're not making 20 grand at the end of it.
- [15:36]
A
Yeah.
- [15:36]
B
So like let's talk about it. And then like why, what is important about the, the 20,000 that you would get and what do you need that for? Oh, it turns out they actually needed three grand to relocate quick and they.
- [15:46]
A
Wanted some extra money to.
- [15:48]
B
Sure.
- [15:48]
A
I can want a lot of things.
- [15:50]
B
Me too. I got a long one list.
- [15:52]
A
That's right.
- [15:52]
B
My birthday's this week. I want a bunch of stuff.
- [15:54]
A
So. So let's go through, you know, what are the, the steps of your sequence to create this process for, for anyone really. But just because we're talking to investors, let's talk to them.
- [16:04]
B
Yeah. So the, the best thing to do is to start by setting clear expectations. That's like one for us. Which is when you call, if you're not willing to go through my process, your process, whoever's. And you need to have that defined. Then we have a misalignment. There's that. We either need to fix it and get aligned or we're out. Okay. So that's like, hey, for us to be able to give you that offer for your house, we're in person. What would happen today is we're going to talk for 10 to 15 minutes, I'm going to learn a little bit about you, I'm going to tell you about us. And if we're a good fit, what I would like to do is send out one of our home buying specialists. They'll spend 60 minutes with you, and at the end of that engagement, they will give you the best offer possible. If someone isn't willing to go through that journey with us, they're not a good fit for us. And we're okay with that. Like, we need to set boundaries respectively, like on both sides.
- [16:49]
A
Right.
- [16:50]
B
And that is for virtual. Whether that is or isn't, whatever it looks like. Right. If somebody says, I'm not talking to you until you say a price, like we can't get there. I don't know enough about it.
- [16:57]
A
Yeah.
- [16:58]
B
And if that's just the match we're going to get into, it's not for me.
- [17:02]
A
Right. In the reality is, by the way, what you're doing. So I say there's four pivotal pillars of salesmanship. Right. And you're doing it. Whether you think or you're cognizant of my four pillars will be indifference, which is what you're already doing.
- [17:17]
B
Yep.
- [17:17]
A
Hey, if we can't get there, we just. Not a good fit. Totally. Okay. That is complete indifference. I believe that is the best sales tactic there is in the planet. And so then you have fear, loss. Right. You have sense of urgency and then you have Jones effect. Jones effect. Is your neighbor sold for this? You want this, Right. So now other people are doing it. So you should do it. Fear of loss is pretty simple, but confused with sense of urgency. Sense of urgency is time. I only have so much time to complete this. Fear of losses. I literally only have so much money. Right. It is gone. When it is gone, fear of loss, it runs out. Right. Qvc. If you remember qvc, you and I, I think are old enough too.
- [17:56]
B
Yep.
- [17:56]
A
My mom was fully addicted. That was Amazon pre ecom. Yeah. So like every day we would get new. My stepfather was. Anyways, they did this brilliantly. Right. So if you remember QVC enough, they always had a time.
- [18:09]
B
Time And a quantity man.
- [18:10]
A
Time and quantity. Fear, loss and sense urgency. They always had it. Fear of loss. There's only two left. Time's running out. Right. So they did this. They were like the. Right. Then they have Jones effect. How did they use Jones effect? Oh, Susie, who just bought this same purse? Susie over here, you know, tell me all about the purse you just bought. How do you love it? How many. Oh, my God. I get all the compliments. Jones effect. Right. And then you have indifference. Hey, guys, if you can't get the last two in the last 36 seconds, no big deal. The next thing we have is the cup of coffee. This is the best cup of coffee in the world. So if you can't grab this, don't worry about a cup of coffee's coming next. Now I'm indifferent. Like, QVC knocked it out of the park.
- [18:49]
B
Yep.
- [18:50]
A
And I think regardless of all the sales gurus, and you yourself are one, and you're brilliant at it, these are the four that we all have to lean on. And you lean. An expert like yourself leans on all four of them without even knowing you're doing it more often than not. Because a lot of time people don't say it audibly the way I'm saying it. But you're leaning on all of those throughout the entire process.
- [19:12]
B
Yep. And it creates an experience.
- [19:14]
A
Right.
- [19:14]
B
And sales is about the experience. So. Right. Like, that is. That is exciting for people to be a part of. Right. All of those things. They're all emotional triggers that you discussed.
- [19:22]
A
Yeah.
- [19:23]
B
So if you're stuck on calculating Mao and a spreadsheet and pre underwriting a deal and not on the person, think Disney. Like it is the place where you know you're going to pay the most.
- [19:35]
A
Yeah.
- [19:35]
B
Like you cringe booking it. Trust me, the only way that you go back is because they provide such a good experience.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah.
- [19:42]
B
So what is the opposite? Like, in our world, right, Disney, we don't pay the most, we pay the least. So it's like the inverse. So how do you pay the least as you create the best experience? So if you're not as a investor creating a phenomenal sales experience that truly is unique, not a script running down the lines like, oh, why are you selling? Well, my husband died. Oh, sorry to hear. How old are the windows? And it's like, like, right, that's not a Disney experience. So you have to create that in exchange for then being able to ask for either a high price or a low acceptable price in this case. And that is all done by pushing Those emotional triggers that you're talking about.
- [20:16]
A
So we got to number one so far, I think you have like five or six.
- [20:19]
B
Well, we covered a couple. So we. We. We build trust. We qualify and disqualify.
- [20:24]
A
Okay.
- [20:24]
B
We touched on briefly. Right. So then it's like, cool if you're in now. Let's see if you're a good fit or if we're a good fit for you. And let me learn about your situation. Let me tell you about what we've got going on. So. Right. It's just a continued evolution of that. You're focusing on services and people here, but not so much the product. We haven't spoken about the house yet at this point in time.
- [20:44]
A
Yeah.
- [20:45]
B
You know, and then we start to dig into exploring what it looks like to do business together.
- [20:49]
A
Okay.
- [20:50]
B
And then. Right. Once we quantify that, now that it's like, okay, cool, you do own a house. It is standing. It didn't fall over. Now we are going to close for that next step at the end, which is what we talked about in the beginning was setting their expectations of, hey, we are now going to come out there. Everything sounds like we're a good fit for each other today. What time is best for. For us to meet tomorrow or Wednesday?
- [21:10]
A
So you said something. I think a lot of people in the sales space. I've studied sales my whole life, and I'm sure you have too. That's why you're so brilliant at it. There's a minor close and a senior close. That's how I name it. Right. The minor close is the first one you just did. Okay, cool. It sounds like we're a good fit. I want to schedule a time to come out. That's a minor close. Them saying yes. You're closing them on the concept to taking the next step. Right. The senior closing our spaces. Here's a contract. Here's the number. Let's do a deal. Right.
- [21:34]
B
And we start at the beginning of the call with that. Hey, if this goes well today at the end of the call, are you okay with us scheduling that? So, like, we even. It's kind of like as part of our.
- [21:42]
A
You're like, do a pre close to the minor close.
- [21:44]
B
Yeah. So all it is really is we're. It's very soft for us because that's the. It's the most enjoyable style sale that isn't forceful. Like, we're not selling with. With fear tactics. Right. Like, we're not going in Miami now, like, shout out our boy Wes Watson. But, like, we're not selling with like, hey, I'll right beat you up if you don't sell your house. That doesn't work right. So like we have to stay emotional. Your brain is logic or emotion. There's no split. So it's one or the other. So either we are going to choose to go math and underwriting today at the beginning of this call and I'll save all my time with the fluffy stuff or at all cost. I have to avoid having objective number based conversations and I need to learn about Justin. I need to learn about this property. I need to learn why your grandkids are important to you to get to them. And then I need to craft a unique Disney style experience to get you there. That leaves me a five star review and I just happen to make some money along the way doing it.
- [22:32]
A
Do you bring up the words Disney in your script, in your framework, in your talk track? We don't.
- [22:37]
B
But internally in training, all of our agents need to be able to provide their own unique version of what Disney looks like.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah.
- [22:47]
B
And that's like, right. Whether that's storytelling, their relatable family experiences, what's important to them, the little things that they do. Like is it a. I bring you coffee. I got you a gift card and thank you for your time today. Wrote you a handwritten note. One guy, you know, leaves a little, says a prayer and leaves a little charm at the end of him. He's faith leaning.
- [23:04]
A
The only reason I'm asking is this is because. And you can take it or leave it. Right. I'd actually encourage my team to use, hey, we're like the Disney of this industry. This industry is chock full of people who want to talk numbers, want to talk about your house, want to talk dollars and cents. I understand at some point there's an actual transaction that has to happen. However, we want to be more like Disney. We want to make sure that you are treated with care. This is an enjoyable experience and we are separating ourselves from the experience we give you, Mr. Home Seller. So that's going to be the focus of our conversation. Initially, of course, we still have to get to the home. But I want you to walk away from this initial call whether we move forward or not. Indifference that you felt great about that call and these guys are different than everyone else out there 100%. I would throw it in there. Like it? And again, you have your framework and talk track. I would tell you, use it. Yeah, why not use it, Put it into the talk track. Hey, we want to be like Disney. We want that experience of like, this is why you come back, this is why you work with us, this is why you do these things. We may not give you the highest number, but you felt so good about our conversation and our transaction that you.
- [24:05]
B
Went with us 100%. And we see that every day in life. And then we get in to real estate and we want to change all of the belief systems and we like get, we get clammed up and we say like, hey, somebody send me your script or your deal. And it's like, man, a hot dog can be bought for a dollar or seven bucks. The only difference is one somebody's throwing a baseball in front of you or the other is that you're at the checkout line at Costco.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah.
- [24:26]
B
And it's like just the perception of the experience and the value that's provided. If you provide a great experience that is good for somebody, like you are rewarded for that. And that's value. Right. Like price and value both have a dollar sign. One is the experience and the emotional support of it. The other being price is like Walmart, man. Like, yeah, all we're gonna do is advertise price and we hope you come here because it's the cheapest. Yeah. So you're either going to, you got to kind of pick and we lean very heavily. You know, we're 4,000 transactions deep. And 19 years of doing this that has some street cred and over 400 people in our community that have shifted to this emotional based sales process that supports a better culture, a more enjoyable sales experience, higher conversions, more profitability and ultimately it's better for the seller.
- [25:12]
A
There's no transaction I've ever been a part of, whether I was you doing door to door sales or on the phone with a homeowner. There's no transaction that was so numbers driven transactionally. Like I've done them because someone said I'm about to lose it before the month is over. Take it for 60 grand or not. Like, yes, that is like the extreme outlier. Correct. But anything worth its weight or anything that I felt good of. Every transaction was an emotional based experience. Every single one. I don't care if it's buying the new shoes to your car, to your house, to selling something. If people are treating it transactionally, they're going to get that type of result. Meaning they could probably do okay, they could probably make some money, they could probably get some transactions. But are they actually being efficient and having efficiencies to do big deals, do more deals? You don't like the Word scale. But grow your company, grow in deal flow. Right? And so I'd tell you now, I'm already going to promote Benmont right now. If you aren't following them, follow him. But this guy's a master what he's doing, right? There's also a web. Where, where would you point them? A website.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah, our best website is. Is ramp rei.com okay.
- [26:16]
A
Ramp r I.com r a m p r I.com Ben Mont also. We're not done, everybody. I'm just. I want him, I want you guys to realize this guy's obviously studied sales. Done sales whole life. What I love about you is you're a self proclaimed geek. I don't think you're a geek. I think you're a cool dude. But I think some people need to get out of their own way. I think some people think I can't because they're a geek. Right. Whatever has happened in their child, whatever father and mother and friends and groups and shame that has happened in life, they feel like they can't. And I want to speak to that because I know one thing about me and I would assume it's the same thing about you. We did it in spite of all the things of why we couldn't. Right. Whether it was the, the messed up childhood. My parents were all alcoholics. I had a mom, a dad, a stepdad, all alcoholics. I, you know, would have to walk myself home. All the things woe is me. Whoa. It's not about that. Is I was able to create something in spite of all the reasons that I could have used as excuses for why I couldn't create it. I know that to be true. I know that anyone who's creating greatness is doing it in spite of something. Yeah, right. Whether it's self shame, not enough confidence. Their, their family didn't give them the confidence. Right. They weren't there for them, their friends, make fun of them, whatever it may be. Talk to us a little bit about the power of like you can be a self proclaimed proclaimed geek, but brother, you're a stud and you know what you're doing. So how do you get someone who may be mentally in that like self shame or I can't mode of being a victim into a killer.
- [27:43]
B
That's a really good question, man. I think like the, the belief system is, is the whole empowerment thing, right. As you mentioned, just some people do it out of spite and it's like, right, I'll prove to the world.
- [27:55]
A
Sure.
- [27:56]
B
And other people, the inverse of that is where they get stuck. And I think, you know, with, without over complicating it. Like having a belief system in like a sales process, whether you are nerdy, objective, right, Very outgoing, it kind of guides you. So the best thing to do, it's like your mentor almost. So if you're stuck, right, like lean on, you're not going to. If you haven't taken the jump on your own yet, that's okay, right? There are personality styles and some people can't push through those barriers themselves. But like where we find that introverts and objective people can thrive in sales is they will follow rules, right? And then the rules say do this. And you take someone who naturally doesn't have those just like street style sales abilities and you teach them it and they learn it, then they can effectively compete probably and outpace somebody who just naturally leans on intuition and seat of the pants meter. So treat a sales process in this instance like, or whatever you want to go do, like find the empowerment and the mentor. Whether it's a process, a document, a person to help you overcome those beliefs. I was that way for a long time. Like it took me a while to sift through and a while. I'm talking probably 18 months of like analyzing data on 5, 600 transactions before I confidently understood enough about what has to happen in here and all of these variable pieces for my personality type to be like, oh, okay, cool, like I will start to lean into this. And then two, three years later spun off a whole new wholesaling company and went from 0 to 100 deals in a year. And then a year after that we were like, okay, cool, like let's get into the education space. We literally just proof of concept. This thing to eight figures, this one to seven figures. Let's go share some of this with the world. And now I sell for that company. And like if you would have asked me that 10, five years ago, I would have been like, oh man. Oh I don't know man.
- [29:51]
A
I like. So you rely on data and then you relied on a system and the combination of the two gave you the confidence to go do it. What I see all the time is someone I've been coaching for over a decade, right? I've been in business for 20 years flipping homes. What I see all the time is people have uncertainty and they lack the confidence. Well, there's a phase of where you need to go. You got to start with a certainty that you can do it. I know, I believe this is the unseen untangible. You can't feel it you can't see. You believe you can do it because you've seen, simply you've seen others do it. So you need to believe that first the confidence grows by the act of doing and realizing, holy shit, I can do the thing. Now I go from certainty to confidence. So some people like yourself create the certainty by relying on data in a process. The act of doing, transacting and doing a hundred deals, saying, I just stood this up out of nowhere. Now you have confidence. You're like, let's pour gas on this dam. Exactly right? So for those out there, they need to start somewhere and you brought it up. You need to find a mentor, a coach, a community to lean on to create your certainty. Right? There is affordability out there. You have a coaching program, in my opinion, very affordable. I have one. I focus on the larger investing. You focus on sales. Like lean into someone or a group or community that is affordable. That's not $20,000. That's affordable. To build certainty, then you want to gain confidence because you see the master, the guy Benmont, crushing sales. You're watching it happen. You're like, I know I can do this, right? I'm watching him do it. He's nothing special. Then you can gain the confidence by going out and doing. But people have to get out there and go do. And those that are stuck about the certainty are always going to be stuck, in my opinion, until they rely on the person that has done it before, has what they want, has the lifestyle, has the deal flow, has the resume. Lean into that person, ask for help.
- [31:44]
B
People will troll a free Facebook group and nothing wrong with it. That's like day one of I want to learn a little bit about it. But if you're seeking input and insights from somebody that truly you don't align with where they are going, like, what the heck are you doing? Meaning, like, if you're asking for input from somebody who has no credibility, who, right, maybe has never done a deal, but is giving you the direction of your life, like, you should want to emulate everything in the foreseeable future on that. Like, this place is awesome. Like, I want a studio like you, right? Like, I want to have the 20 years experience like you, right? We were talking about watches in the beginning. Like, that's somebody that I want to follow in their footsteps. A, you've done it. B, you can share your experiences with it. You can make money and do a lot of things, but like seek direction and influence and mentorship from somebody. And if there's a price associated with doing that, like, then by all means there's got calculated return on investment. But like, free advice may not come with a good return and then you're just wasting time.
- [32:42]
A
More often. You get what you pay for. Yeah, Right.
- [32:44]
B
And then if that's a bad experience, what do you think happens now? You're like, oh, I can't do it. Right. You wasted six months and you're burnout and everything was bad about it. So now investing equals bad, and that's not the case at all. So, you know, I would say one of the most important things is to lean into the community. A something somewhere that has what you want and that has to align, like with your vision and where you want to take your life.
- [33:06]
A
And for those out there watching this that have been trying and they're struggling, like, don't let your past dictate your future, ever. Because. And I'll just bring it to the dating world, Right? Like, if you get your heart broken when you're young and you're 16 years old and you're high school sweetheart and you get your heart broken, what are you going to never date again? Never get married? You can't allow that to happen in business either. You can't allow that in the adult world of how you're going to go create and provide and go after what you want.
- [33:28]
B
Yeah.
- [33:28]
A
So if you're out there struggling, you can't allow your past issues follow into your today's world. Because there are people like Ben Monthere, are people like me that you can actually start to lean on to say, hey, I needed to do something different. I tried it on my own, I got nowhere, I failed, I lost money, whatever. Never worked. Well, then don't try it on your own. Go lean on Benmont. Go lean on Justin. Go lean on the people that have it.
- [33:52]
B
Yeah.
- [33:52]
A
And if you have to cut a check, then pony it up. It is an investment. If you think it's anything other than investment, then never be an entrepreneur ever, ever, ever. And I'm talking to you. If you're here, if that triggers you. Sorry, sorry. Stop listening to me. Because the reality is I pay a lot of money every year for coaches and masterminds. They're not always in the real estate section. They're not always in sales. It is business. Growth is marketing, is operations. Sometimes I fucking cut a check just to be around the people I want to be around for, period, End of story. Because I know by being around them, they're further than I am. And I'm going to get something.
- [34:26]
B
Proximity, accountability, like you, you have FOMO at that point, come all the way back to the sales process again, you're putting yourself emotionally in a situation that wants demands better and different.
- [34:35]
A
Yeah.
- [34:36]
B
And there's only so many ways to get there, so no 100% resonate, you know, with that. And if you, if you play small, you can't expect a big return either. So I'm not telling you, like you said, you don't have to go spend 20 grand. But, like, the $3 PDF is probably, let's say, had a 10x return, you're going to make 30 bucks. Yeah, but like, what if you invested a thousand bucks, two thousand bucks, and you had a five to ten return? Like, now we're talking. All right, now I got 10 grand.
- [35:00]
A
How quick can I spend another thousand dollars?
- [35:03]
B
100%.
- [35:03]
A
Right.
- [35:04]
B
So treat that all the same when you're. Whether you're investing in your business, yourself, your life, whatever that is. Yeah. You got to really just find the investments into yourself and then the belief system that you can go execute on that thing.
- [35:17]
A
Now, the other thing is, I think, to talk to the people that do and then don't do. Because it's one thing for someone to come into Benmont's world and make the investment, and you're very affordable. In my opinion. You should charge a whole lot more. And my coach tells me the same thing.
- [35:28]
B
Price is going up. Hurry up. Get it, get it now. Price is going up.
- [35:31]
A
That's right. And so. But then you sit there and you give them the gold, the real shit like this. If you do this exact way of the framework to talk, like, you will crush. And they don't. Yeah. And they won't do it. And that is the most challenging part that I find as an educator, is to say, I'm literally giving you gold. Like, it will make you more money than you've ever made in your life if you just execute. I always find it is difficult for us to give them the thing they need versus the thing they want. They want to make money, but what they need is to get the out of their own way. Because if you can't go do it, then you won't get anything from it. Right. Talk to us about how you can not force someone but to, like, get someone to start actually doing the thing that would create them to do it. Like, there's a saying something about, it's going to be hard either way. Choose your hard. Yeah, right. I say that a lot. There's a different way of, like, you know, like, your day is hard. Go do something harder so your day's not as.
- [36:36]
B
Say that all the time, man.
- [36:37]
A
Right.
- [36:38]
B
My day sucks. Go for a run outside in the heat. I hate running. I come back, man, whatever task I was working on is way better than that. 20 minutes had sucked.
- [36:45]
A
Yeah, I think that. Talk to us about that philosophy because I think what we do is, is after 20 years of doing this and, and as long as you have with this amount of deals, it can be like, oh yeah, Justin, but you've done it for 20 years. People will create the excuse of why they can't.
- [36:59]
B
Yeah.
- [36:59]
A
Even though I'm giving them the same thing I still do to this day, 20 days in, I'm giving them the same thing. But they think it's hard. They think they can't. They think. So let's talk about like the hard is hard. Either way you cut it, life is going to be hard. You have to choose your hard. I made a post recently like being a parent. You. You and I both have young kids. I have a four year old. I have a four 15 month old. You have a four year old and two month old or two year old.
- [37:21]
B
Yep. Close to you.
- [37:22]
A
Right. Being a parent is really difficult. Here's what I find to be the most difficult part of parenting. I want to provide, I want to protect. That's all I really want to do. But I want to be the most present in the moment father while with them and loving them and encouraging them and supporting them and being that father that I didn't necessarily have. But to provide and protect means there's a lot of times that I have to go out and hunt. And while I'm hunting, I'm not in moment, in present moment with my children. That is the hardest part. But I have to choose my hard. I don't get both. I can't create an amazing life that they deserve while sitting on the floor playing with their toys. Yeah, right. So talk to us about the there's always hard choose your hard. When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof like aloe or skins. Sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for shoppers buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify. With shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50% meaning way less carts are going abandoned and way more sales happening. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell whatever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, Upgrade your business and get the same checkout skins uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com westwood1 all lowercase go to shopify.com westwood1 to upgrade your selling today shopify.com westwood1 these days, clients want it all.
- [39:07]
B
A slick looking site that can run their business and scale with their success.
- [39:12]
A
The good news?
- [39:13]
B
That's exactly what WIX Studio is built for. Plan out your client's whole site in.
- [39:17]
A
Seconds with AI powered site mapping and wireframing. Then when everyone's on the same page, jump into the creative starting off in Figma and exporting it in a click.
- [39:27]
B
Or in the WIX Studio editor with precise layouting tools like Grid Stack and Flexbox. Go above and beyond the brief with no code, animations, custom CSS and built.
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A
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B
And there's zero need to break a.
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A
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- [39:47]
B
And reusable assets lets you turn one page into hundreds, design smoother and deliver Sooner. Go to wixstudio.com businesses that are selling through the roof like Untuck it make selling and for shoppers buying simple. With Shopify home of the number one checkout on the planet and with shop pay you can boost conversions up to 50%. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Untuck it uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com podcast free. All lowercase go to shopify.com podcast free to upgrade your selling today. Yeah, I love that too because it's like it's hard to be broke and it's hard to work hard to make enough money that you're not broke.
- [40:31]
A
That's right.
- [40:31]
B
And then you just you choose. So you know that sparked I thought in my brain of like this is why we built our community at Ramp was because we went through every training possible and every newest next best thing and what we found was what you touched on a lot of of inspiration and it didn't come with any accountability or consistency beyond that. And I am not a motivational rah rah guy because math doesn't say that like one plus one is two like somebody's crying. I don't get it. Right. It doesn't math that. But when we built our community it had to be different because we saw the challenges for our team, I mean, we've got 48 employees, and we saw them struggling and us spending a bunch of money and them not getting better and us just going through the motions. So we said, what is different look like? And we kind of leaned into what you talked about, where it was like, we do need to inspire people and we need to teach them information so that they have the baseline, they're further ahead than where they were. But you can't quit at that. Like, I'll see goggins on YouTube and I've yet to go run with a weighted vest on in the rain, in the dark, yelling. So, like, it inspires me. Like, I literally, like, will give me chills, right? His voice and stuff sometimes. And it's like, man, that guy's badass. But I'm not doing it. But, like, I'm inspired to want to be better, to go to the gym. Cool. Like, that's inspiration. But then, like, how do you keep going? Is we've implemented then coaching inside of there, where it's like, okay, cool, now you take this information, go try it, then tell me where you're stuck. I'm not going to tell you something new. I'm going to help you enrich and overcome that hurdle that you're stuck at now. And then with that, repetitions and practice comes into play. So we built in practice into that. You think a sports team, right? Aside from baseball, the lunatics play every day like everybody else trains and practices a ton for the game. So inside of our community, we have segmented calls that have a different purpose of those kind of things, because all three of those create the continuity that. Okay, cool, let's get excited about it. Let's do it and see where we got hung up. And then let me hold you accountable to continuing to do it and to revise what you're doing so that we get to that end result. I can't be there every day with you, but providing those couple hours a week where three days a week, we're in contact, where we're doing those different activities, keep inspiring you because you need that North Star and that belief system. You need to keep compounding knowledge. You need to keep getting coached. If the coach walked off the field, like the team doesn't know what to do, and then we need to keep practicing independently from that or with our peers and with other people. Treat this thing like, if you want big results, you gotta invest in yourself big to do it. So those are the three pieces we found of teaching, coaching and practicing that have overcome Every inspirational style, sales, training, or any other program that there would be.
- [43:22]
A
Yeah. Just like you said, there's an emotion component to all this. You gotta like what I try to do. And I'm no Tony Robbins, but you do the same thing. I'm sure you try to figure out what community member, what, what the real challenge is. Say, okay, what are the decisions? Right. Like, what's more important, the thing that you are creating an issue about or creating an awesome life. Right. And so you try to find a way to like, say, hey, if you do these things, if you practice, you do it consistently, you stay a part of the community, then you're actually going to win.
- [43:49]
B
Yeah.
- [43:50]
A
I mean, understanding that is the basics of. I think if I had to say, that's like the basics of success in.
- [43:56]
B
General, no matter what you do.
- [43:57]
A
Right.
- [43:58]
B
And that feels good. Like when you do that, when you like get those things and you're learning, right. You're like, you're compounding like dopamine hits of like, oh, cool, I learned more information. Oh, I did. And it kind of worked. Like that feels good. Like, right? There's a fire smoldering in there. And then it's like, all right, let me go revise this and hit a couple foul shots at home or in a role play and then you feel even better about and then you go back out. That's what culture looks like, Right. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, once they get outside of solopreneur ing, they want culture. Like, that's not pizza parties and retreats. Like, you can't buy your way to winning. Like, you want to see your team thrive, whether it's one or 25 people. Like, show them what success looks like and let everybody be a part of hitting goals and accomplishing milestones. Like, that's what feels awesome.
- [44:40]
A
Did. You're a stud, everybody. Benmont Locker. If you're interested in sales of any level and understanding a true process, you guys have it locked, right? You have this process down. You've done thousands and thousands of deals. Make sure you follow him. Make sure you go to ramp rei.com Yep. Right. Understand what this process is. If you're serious about being real estate investing. Ben Mott and I agree. Senior is sales, junior is marketing. If you can't sell anything, then who cares about the leads that you're bringing in?
- [45:07]
B
Wasting money to fill up your inbox with a bunch of notifications. So, yeah, and anybody that's interested, like you said, ramp rei.com we'll throw on a free seven day trial you can spend like three hours of live training and full access to everything we do in the community for a week. You don't like it, click, cancel and bounce. But I think there's a lot of good information in there for anybody, no matter what level investor you are. I mean, if it's day one and you want to be inspired, there's a great free resource for you. If you've got a team of people and you lack being that sales manager, that accountability partner, if you're not investing five hours a week into your team, let somebody do it. Who? That's all that they do. And we love it.
- [45:45]
A
So awesome, guys. Check them out if this was helpful. If you learned a little bit about sales, then make sure you share. Make sure you share this with at least two of your friends. Make sure you follow Ben, make sure you go to amp ramprei.com and we'll see you on the next episode. Thanks, man. Hey, I'm going to redo that end. I'm going to redo that end. I don't know why I like stuttered over that. Hey, if this was interesting and if you feel like you've learned a couple things about sales and actually getting out of your own way and succeeding at the business, then make sure you're following Benmont and make sure you go and share this at least two of your friends so you can execute proficiently. I'll see you guys on the next episode. No offense, but your brain is a.
- [46:25]
B
Terrible place to keep your big idea.
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A
It belongs in the world. But you know that already.
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B
You have a calling, a voice that says this is what I'm meant to do. Create the website your big idea deserves with wix. Make it your own with top to.
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Ready Go to wix.
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A
Com.