The Power of Choice: Moving from Victim to Empowered Chooser with Jamie George

Summary

The Science of Success

Episode Title: The Power of Choice: Moving from Victim to Empowered Chooser with Jamie George
Host: Matt Bodnar
Guest: Jamie George
Date: May 3, 2024

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and deeply practical episode, Matt Bodnar is joined by coach and thought leader Jamie George for a conversation that dives into the power of personal agency, how to move from a victim mindset to the stance of empowered chooser, and actionable frameworks for improving our relationships—both at work and in our personal lives. Jamie breaks down transformative psychological models, including the vital shift from living with expectations to creating agreements, and introduces the “drama triangle” versus the “green triangle” models for healthier human dynamics. The discussion covers techniques for building emotional ownership, setting boundaries, diffusing drama and resentment, and working with shame and fear.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Choice and Emotional Ownership

[02:40] – [10:53]

• Jamie highlights the difference between living with “expectations” (one-sided, often leading to resentment) and forming “agreements” (two-sided, collaborative).

• Replacing expectations with agreements leads to buy-in, emotional ownership, and better outcomes in both work and personal relationships.

• Notable Quote:
  “All expectations are premeditated resentments.” — Jamie George [03:48]

• Agreements require more up-front work but pay dividends in collaboration, creativity, and mutual accountability.

• When agreements are broken, the conversation shifts from blame to repair and renegotiation instead of shame or fear.

• Key terms:

  • Emotional Ownership: “There’s immediate emotional ownership simply by asking.” — Jamie George [06:34]

2. From Drama Triangle to Empowered Chooser

[12:09] – [20:57]

• Jamie introduces the "drama triangle" (by Stephen Karpman) as a model of negative psychological dynamics, with three roles:
  • Victim: “Hell is where you live as a victim.”
  • Rescuer
  • Perpetrator
• These roles entrench suffering and lead to false intimacy and ongoing conflict.
• Jamie contrasts this with the “green triangle,” a positive framework:
  • Ownership (Empowered Chooser)
  • Boundaries
  • Negotiation
• Stepping into ownership means embracing agency no matter how hard the choices presented are. The green triangle empowers individuals to retain autonomy and create healthy agreements.
• Notable Quote:
  “The moment something happens to you that violates your agency, you’re abused…the next moment you’re not. Otherwise you’re going to stay down there.” — Jamie George [15:51]

3. Boundaries, Preferences, and Difficult Relationships

[20:57] – [27:34]

• Discussion on managing boundaries with people who habitually violate them.

• Jamie clarifies that nobody “knocks you down” into the drama triangle—you always have agency in how you respond.

• The difference between a preference (negotiable) and a boundary (non-negotiable and actionable).

• Actionable boundary example:
  “If you continue speaking to me in that way, I’m going to remove myself from the conversation.” — Jamie George [25:15]

• Even in extreme cases (e.g., abusive relationships), an individual retains power of choice, however difficult.

• Notable Quote:
  “The alternative is I’m just the endless victim of your abuse, hoping someday you might change.” — Jamie George [27:34]

4. The Power of Agency versus Hopelessness

[28:28] – [32:49]

• Exploring why agency, however challenging, is preferable to perpetual victimhood and its accompanying suffering.
• Instead of being stuck in “should” (which is always another’s voice), focus on what actually is.
• Confronting reality, uncomfortable though it may be, is the path to growth and healing.
• Notable Quote:
  “Should is always someone else’s voice… it interferes with your intuition.” — Jamie George [33:24]

5. Fear, Shame, and Why We Don’t Own Reality

[33:45] – [39:22]

• The two dominant energies that keep people stuck: fear (comfort zone, avoidance of uncertainty) and shame (sense of being “bad” or worthless).
• Jamie notes that the ego seeks comfort, control, and approval, often keeping us trapped even when the “door is open.”
• The difference between guilt (behavior-focused, actionable) and shame (identity-focused, debilitating).
• Notable Quote:
  “Shame goes after identity… Guilt says, ‘Ooh, I don’t like that behavior.’ Shame says, ‘You’re a loser, you’re an idiot, you’re no good.’” — Jamie George [38:11]

6. The Invitation versus Telling People How to Live

[39:22] – [41:27]

• Jamie details the importance of inviting change rather than imposing it, respecting individual agency and difference in frameworks/life experience.
• “Maybe stop telling people how to live and invite them into opportunity.” — Jamie George [41:32]

7. Shame, Value, and Returning to Core Identity

[41:48] – [48:17]

• Contrary to some religious paradigms (“original sin”), Jamie advocates for recognizing “original affection”—our intrinsic worth and goodness.

• Shame erodes our sense of value and identity; overcoming it unlocks agency and purpose.

• Referencing “The War of Art” (Steven Pressfield)—that resistance is out to “crush your soul.”

• Notable Quote:
  “You were good before you were bad.” — Jamie George, quoting from a St. Francis film [44:12]

• The work of healing is to acknowledge inherent worth and step into action, however uncertain, as an act of faith and self-compassion.

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Action Steps & Exercises

1. Resentment Release Exercise

[48:38] – [51:36]

• Jamie’s recommended exercise for all listeners:
  • List all your resentments (toward anyone—big or small).
  • For each, say aloud: “So-and-so, I forgive you, I release you, and I release me. My hope is that you will live into the light of who you are and I send you light and love.”
  • Repeat as needed until the emotional intensity is gone.
  • Journaling is key. “85% of the problem is solved the moment you write it down.” — Jamie George [49:51]

2. Replace Expectations with Agreements

• In any important relationship, swap out “expectations” for explicit “agreements.”
• Collaborate on defining mutual agreements, create buy-in, and review/renew them as needed.

3. Explore Your Drama Triangle Roles

• Reflect on rescuer, perpetrator, and victim roles—notice recurring patterns and move consciously into ownership, setting boundaries, and negotiating from a position of agency.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All expectations are premeditated resentments.” — Jamie George [03:48]
• “There’s immediate emotional ownership simply by asking.” — Jamie George [06:34]
• “You can shift an entire culture in a company by just removing expectations and replacing them with agreements.” — Jamie George [10:13]
• “If I tell you… I’m probably just a rescuer. You’re suffering. I don’t like that you’re suffering. I want you to stop suffering.” — Jamie George [40:04]
• “You were good before you were bad.” — Jamie George [44:12]
• “Shame goes after identity. Guilt says, ‘I don’t like that behavior.’ Shame says, ‘You’re a loser.’” — Jamie George [38:11]
• “The alternative is I’m just the endless victim of your abuse, hoping someday you might change.” — Jamie George [27:34]
• “Should is always someone else’s voice…” — Jamie George [33:24]
• “Act in faith. Take a step, and you will discover who you are as you go.” — Jamie George [47:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:40] Expectations v. Agreements
• [12:09] The Drama Triangle & Agency
• [20:57] Setting Boundaries, Preferences v. Boundaries
• [28:28] Choosing Agency in Difficult Situations
• [33:45] Why We Don’t Own Reality: Fear & Shame
• [38:11] The Role of Shame v. Guilt
• [41:48] Recognizing Core Value & Overcoming Shame
• [48:38] Practical Exercise: Releasing Resentments

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Where to Find Jamie George

• https://jamiegeorge.com
• Social: @JamieGeorgeCoach (TikTok for live coaching and content)

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This episode is a rich exploration of agency, boundaries, healthier dynamics, and self-healing. Whether you’re a leader, striving for better personal relationships, or seeking tools for personal growth, Jamie’s practical frameworks and exercises offer meaningful ways to move from suffering toward empowered, engaged living.

Transcript

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[Jamie George]

Welcome to the Science of Success. Introducing your host, Matt Bodnar.

[Matt Bodnar]

Jamie, welcome to the Science of Success.

[Jamie George]

Thank you, Matt. Great to be with you, brother.

[Matt Bodnar]

Well, I'm excited to have you on the show in this special edition that we're doing. I've done a few live interviews in the course of the history of the show, but this is it's been a while since I've done in person live show for the Science of Success. So it's really good to have you here.

[Jamie George]

Thank you. It's fun. I like being, you know, there's a different energy when you're in person, right?

[Matt Bodnar]

Absolutely. At some point, I want to download from you this whole setup and like how you the the logistics of getting it put together because I really like the studio and the vibe and a

[Jamie George]

lot of people smarter than me.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's always a good strategy. So, Jamie, you and I have a bunch of connectivity, but we met each other literally sitting next to each other at a dinner.

[Jamie George]

I know. How crazy was that?

[Matt Bodnar]

And the funny thing is we sat next to each other this dinner the entire night. And I mean, we kind of exchanged pleasantries, but we didn't really speak that much. And then, you know, as we were finishing dessert, basically, we realized we had a mutual acquaintance that we knew really well. And then we started talking about psychology.

[Jamie George]

Right.

[Matt Bodnar]

And I had no idea that really what you had done in that world. And you know, I'm an amateur kind of dabbling in the space, but I find the topics to Be super interesting. So, you know, you started talking about a couple things, and I was like, yo, this guy's really smart. And I wanted to kind of dig into it. So the first thing you mentioned to me at dinner the other night was this concept that I hadn't heard of before that I thought was really cool, which was the distinction between agreements and expectations. So I'd love to hear your perspective on what is that and why is it important?

[Jamie George]

Expectations are what we believe about how other people will behave. And it's interesting because it's part of our vernacular, right? We. Well, you know, I've got these expectations, or in the business world, I'll often hear, hey, be really clear about your expectations. And it sounds lovely. Like, oh, that's good. If I was clear on my expectations, then that other person will really know how to do the right thing, which will essentially please me. Now, if you notice that for just a second, you realize pretty quickly this whole thing about expectations is one directional. Like, even if I'm clear about my expectations, what I think is clear suddenly turns out at some point along the way, not clear.

[Matt Bodnar]

I've had that experience many, many times.

[Jamie George]

Right? And so fundamentally, I just started going, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with living in expectations. There has to be another way of being. And so what I stumbled across was there is. I read a line by a Franciscan priest that captured it for me. He said, all expectations are premeditated resentments.

[Matt Bodnar]

I really like that.

[Jamie George]

Isn't that a great line?

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

And every time I say it, you got to pause for a second, like, whoa, whoa, hold on. Wait, wait. What. And what it means is I'm already setting myself up to be resentful of the other person, because no one will do it exactly the way I have it in my mind. So it doesn't serve them and it doesn't serve me. And eventually, I'm just setting myself up to do work around. I will eventually have to do work around forgiveness because I'm going to be frustrated that they didn't do it the way I wanted them to.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's my experience a lot of time already.

[Jamie George]

And then in the workplace, you think about the person on the other end, you know? And I work with a lot of people in C suites, you know, a lot of CEOs and so forth. And when I start with them, they usually come from this paradigm, and they're usually frustrated about something. I mean, I was clear on my expectations. I'm like, were you clear? And the motive then on whoever that other person is to get the project done or fulfill the expectation. Expectations is usually driven by fear. Two energies. Fear. I'm afraid I'm not going to do it the way that guy wanted me to or that lady wanted me to get it done or that board or whatever. Fear. I'm driven by fear. Or I'm driven just by pleasing. I hope I please you. I hope I please you. I hope. Well, neither of these are great energies for a long term relationship, professionally or personally. And so how do we. If we remove expectations, which as soon as I sit with a client, this is the first session. This is what I'm inviting them to do. Hey, I want to invite you to remove all expectations from your life.

[Matt Bodnar]

It's a tall order.

[Jamie George]

That seems daunting.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

And what we know is, and you know this because I've loved our conversations, nothing exists in a vacuum, so you have to replace it with something. So my invitation is, hey, could you replace all expectations with agreements? And here's how this works. Instead of me, let's take. We'll use a business thing for a second. So, hey, we're working on this project. These are the 10 things I think need to be done in the project. Old paradigm. Do these 10 things make sure they're done. I need them Friday by noon. These are my expectations. Am I clear? Yeah. And of course, rarely are they done exactly the same that way. Right. Agreement's a little different. Takes a little bit more work on the front end. But my argument, especially for all my people who are always thinking through ROI and efficiency, is it's going to serve you way more on the back end. So I take them through. So you're going to sit with someone that you're going to work on a project. Hey, I'm thinking about this project. Are these 10 items I really feel like need to be done to make this project successful. What do you think? Now I've immediately changed the dynamic because I've invited the other person into participating with me, which means I've raised up. They kind of feel like in that moment, like, well, geez, I kind of feel like the equal. I'm. Wait, you're looking for my feedback.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yeah, you're creating buy in.

[Jamie George]

There it is. There's immediate emotional ownership simply by asking. And one of the biggest problems I deal with this, almost every CEO will tell me, geez, I'm just having trouble. My guys aren't collaborating and I'm like, well, tell me about how well you're collaborating. Right. Because if they're not, it's probably not being modeled. So now suddenly we have an opportunity for collaboration and you invite people to participate. To your point exactly. Now you have emotional ownership.

[Matt Bodnar]

I love that term, by the way.

[Jamie George]

Do you like that phrase? And then not only have emotional ownership, but you're also now getting creative input instead of it being one sided, your idea about how the project should run. And so they go, yeah, hey, number one's good, number three's good. Number four, hey, number five, I'm not sure I can do it. And then you go, well, tell you what, if I could resource you, do you think you could get that done? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. Okay, let's go back. Oh, six is good. Seven, I think we need an add an eight, nine and ten. Oh, really? Why? Well, because I'm thinking about this. Great point. Thank you. I wouldn't have thought of that. Beautiful. Okay, so would you say back to me what you heard us talk about now. I call that mirroring. So this is. I add this in and you could do this in your relationship with your spouse, with your kid, with your friend, any but your business partner. Hey, would you say that back to me? Okay, so what I understand is the project's gonna be. That was close. What I really meant on number nine was this. Oh, okay. Yeah, so say that back. Okay. Okay, good. So do we have an agreement? Yeah, sounds great. Totally different than these were my 10 expectations. The energy is around the whole thing. And by the way, now I know I don't have to manage you. All I have to do is manage the agreement.

[Matt Bodnar]

Tell me about that.

[Jamie George]

Well, now it's not personal. You didn't. I can't. You're what? An idiot. I can't. Or when I'm talking to like the COO and like, are you kidding me? You know, or she didn't and he didn't. And by the way, the other way. Because how many times does somebody go home and you roll over to your wife and like, oh my gosh, the CEO, now he wants me to do this. And this is. His expectations are ridiculous. And I can't work this many hours right now. It's all an agreement. So the two of you are just managing the agreement. So let's just say the person who's involved in the project goes home and says, oh, honey, I'm, you know, I got to work through Saturday, whatever. Well, why do you have to work through Saturday? Well, we talked about this project and you know, I agreed to. Well, now the other person, not the villain anymore, she's like, well, you agree to it? Well, yeah. I mean, I agree to it.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

Okay.

[Matt Bodnar]

It's not getting forced on you.

[Jamie George]

Right.

[Matt Bodnar]

You're collaborating and sort of buying into. I love.

[Jamie George]

Yeah.

[Matt Bodnar]

You're taking emotional ownership of it.

[Jamie George]

There it is.

[Matt Bodnar]

Which is a great term.

[Jamie George]

And most of us. Funny thing about humans, most of us just don't like being told what to.

[Matt Bodnar]

Very true.

[Jamie George]

So when you invite me into being autonomous and notice it's an invitation, even though, quote, I'm your boss, even though I'm your director port. But when I invite you, it has a different energy than telling you you have the all. It's just a totally different energetic experience. And again. And I think it's more efficient on the back end now because I'm just managing our agreement. Hey. Hey. It's Friday. It's 12 o'. Clock. We in agreement that you were going to do xyz? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have that ready. Okay, so we have a broken agreement. Yeah. Okay, so what are we going to do to repair that? Because we got a broken agreement. We have a broken trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My bad. You know, I didn't. I wasn't expecting this and that and. Okay, so let's make a new agreement around that. And you think. But now the energy is not I just want to please you or I'm afraid of you. And this is really big. This is really big. The energy is now I want to be a person of integrity.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's a really. Yeah, I love that shift.

[Jamie George]

I want to feel integrated integrity.

[Matt Bodnar]

To me, it's almost like shame.

[Jamie George]

Right. And I don't want you to feel shame. I do want you to feel the responsibility that comes with being a person of your word and to feel integrated. I have this internal pressure to follow through. And now the pressure is not I've got to please you or I'm afraid of you. It's I want to be integrated and be a person of my word. And the whole dynamic of everything dramatically changes. You can shift an entire culture in a company by just removing expectations and replacing them with agreements.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's so fascinating. So a number of questions about that, but how do you think about. As somebody who manages a decent amount of people, one of the things that comes to me is like, okay, if I have somebody who keeps breaking my agreement with them, how would you think about handling that?

[Jamie George]

So this would take us into our triangles and I have to give you a little model for that. But I'll give you a quick answer and then we can go.

[Matt Bodnar]

And then we'll go. Triangles.

[Jamie George]

Yeah, because it flows right into that. But the quick answer would be remembering that you're the empowered chooser. So if you have someone who continues to break agreements, you get to ask yourself, do I want to continue to be in relationship with someone I can't trust or would I like to move on from this relationship?

[Matt Bodnar]

So it gives you more clarity around underperforming or sort of, I don't know what the right term would be. Negative relationships, challenging relationships.

[Jamie George]

You can even kind of take it away from that and just go, someone who currently, for whatever reason, busy life, trauma, their own triggers, lack of discipline, whatever the characteristic is that's presenting or deep issue in the employee. The bottom line is they're not being a person of integrity by keeping their agreements. So there's two options. That person's going to have to do some work to keep their agreements or it's just time for them to move on.

[Matt Bodnar]

That makes sense. So in the pre show you mentioned these infamous triangles. Tell me about triangles. And how do they factor into both agreements and expectations and also human performance as a whole or psychological well being?

[Jamie George]

Yeah, it is one of the best behavioral models I've come across. You and I talked about this before. There's so many great models out there, but I love this model. And the reason I love it's kind of the law of threes. I love it because there's simplicity and it's easy to remember. I first stumbled across this in my own therapeutic work in 2016. I had, I never dealt with anxiety before. I never had a panic attack in my whole life. And I had this breakdown of these, this confluence of not feeling integrated in my job at the time, feeling like I was being pulled two different ways. In one way felt really wrong. But I felt like I didn't have a choice. And I was just, I went. It was like a five day therapeutic retreat where they go into your story and you find out, hey, where are you stuck? And all that. It was the first place I experienced. This model developed by Stephen carbon in the 1960s comes out of transactional analysis. It's called the drama triangle. And that few people have done like TED talks on it and stuff. What's interesting to me though is this talks about the negative ways of relating, but very few people have a positive version of it. So I'm going to give you both. Okay, so the drama triangle is all drama all the time. It's where the ego lives. There's three dominant characteristics. One, so picture a triangle upside down at the very bottom. Hell is where you live as a victim.

[Matt Bodnar]

Okay.

[Jamie George]

If you slide up the triangle along the right side of the triangle, you have the word perpetrator. And if you slide up the left side of the triangle, you have the word rescuer. So let's say just a word about the ego. So the ego is that primal part of us fight, flight, or freeze. The ego walks around on the planet trying not to die. So thank you, ego. You're keeping me alive. And really. Right. There's no shame like, thank you for keeping me alive. But the ego is all survival, which means if I stay in it, it's just an ongoing sense of suffering. And when I'm stuck in this loop with relationships, it's false intimacy. It's intense. You have intensity, but you don't have intimacy. And you can watch people live and die here. They just bounce from corner to corner of these triangles. A lot of people even get married. One is the rescuer and one is the victim. So for instance, one person might have an energy that goes, I'm really having trouble. You know, these bad things have happened to me, and I. And I just can't. You wouldn't believe this, that my dad and this. What happened, my coach and my team and my. In my college did this.

[Matt Bodnar]

It's giving me anxiety, just like, hearing that.

[Jamie George]

And the other person has a need to be needed, so they go, oh, I can help you. Oh, I got you. I got you. I'll take care of you and I'll rescue you. Letting off. Let's. Hey, honey, come on. Like, I'm going to lead the way. I'll be like, right? And so it's funny how often relationships form in that. And it works for a little while until it doesn't. In the place it typically starts not working is when the victim's like, oh, my gosh, stop trying to control everything about my life. And they slide up to the perpetrator. And when you're in the perpetrating corner, you're basically going, I'm going to hurt you before you hurt me. I feel vulnerable and I feel exposed. I don't know what to do with it. So I might be sarcastic. I might use silence, withdraw. I might get loud and big and aggressive. But right now, something in my world feels exposed. Remember, it's my ego. Oh, my gosh, I'm threatened. My threat feels. Analysis is up, and I'm gonna hurt you before you hurt me. And you'll see the people who, especially big aggressive personalities, they'll hurt you or hurt you, and then they'll Feel really bad about it afterwards and like, come back around like, you know, I'm sorry. Those people who kind of have that loop of, they'll hurt you, then they'll apologize, hurt you. Then again, there's compassion here. There's no judgment. It's just the ego trying to keep itself alive. And it's a strategy the ego employs. The rescuer victim dances. So let's say the victim goes, stop controlling me. The rescuer starts getting fed up and go, oh my gosh, dear God. At some point you're going to have to take responsibility for your life, right? And here comes the argument. And then he might. Now he's the perpetrator, she's the perpetrator. And no one is ever in the same corner. You're always pushing people around, which is a pretty good picture of it. You're literally pushing people around, right? So it's just suffering, and you can live that way. And suffering is its own teacher. So again, there's no. When I sit with a client, like, you can live this way. I'm not forcing you to make any decisions you don't want to make. Right? You could this, it works. It's just you suffer a lot. If you like to not suffer, there's another way to live. And so we have what we call. So we usually call that drama triangle, the red triangle, because it's kind of red flushed face of intensity. We call the green triangle. And so if you put on top of it, almost like in the shape of a diamond, put stick that green triangle right side up above the red triangle, the very top heaven would be ownership. And if you slide down the left side, you go to boundaries. And if you slide down the right side, you get to negotiation. Start with boundaries. Boundaries are where I go, hey, that doesn't work for me. Let's say you're on the job and you go, I'm not going to lie about that. You know, whatever the thing is, I'm not going to lie. And let's say your direct report's like, well, you're going to have to lie on that. And now you could go, oh my gosh, let's say you're a victim. You leave. Well, you started right there, nice and green, right? Now I'm not going to do that. And then you go home and you go, oh my gosh, honey. My director points. I got to lie in this thing and I can't be such a jerk. And he's forced me to do this. Now I got to go do something. I don't want to do. And I, you're a victim. And therapists say this, it's a great line. They say the moment something happens to you that violates your agency, you're abused, you know, or betrayed. The moment you're a victim, it matters. You're a victim. But the next moment you're not. Otherwise you're going to stay down there, your identity is going to be as a victim. So what I say to that person who's like, I can't believe you still are an empowered chooser. So they'll say back to me, well, what am I going to quit?

[Matt Bodnar]

It's a choice.

[Jamie George]

That's an option. So you get to choose. I will forego this, what was previously a boundary and do this thing. My direct reports asking me, you can do that, but you're not a victim anymore. You're choosing. Or you can go to a, you can go to a senior manager. But there's a world of possibilities perhaps you haven't explored. But let's just remember you're the chooser. So you're not making the choice as a victim anymore. Own your own decision.

[Matt Bodnar]

I like that.

[Jamie George]

Get clear on your boundaries, that you know, this is kind of my non negotiable. I slide over there, I own what I want. Ownership is heaven to me. Where I own what I want, I own it. And one of the first exercises I do with clients is I ask them what they want. And you'll be surprised how difficult this can be.

[Matt Bodnar]

I know when you asked me what I wanted, it was certainly an interesting conversation.

[Jamie George]

We've talked about this, right? Because it's actually vulnerable to own what I want. And sometimes we don't really know what we want. Takes a little work. That's why to me it's the most powerful position. Because when I actually own it, I stop giving my power to other people. It's very empowering to own my own want. Now other humans have their own wants too, right? So we all have preferences. So I slide over to negotiation and now I hey, here's what I want. What do you want? Let's negotiate that. I got some boundaries, by the way. This is kind of a non negotiable for me. But these are my preferences, you know, and what are yours? And let's go. We do this in a marriage, we do this. I think we even do this for their kids. Even though we're quote the authority choice theory, which I know one of your guests, Bernie Brown talks, has talked about before, allows I'm presenting my children even with choices. I'M helping them learn how to negotiate their little world. Right.

[Matt Bodnar]

They negotiate with me quite a bit.

[Jamie George]

And the way your mind is, like, you're probably good at it, right?

[Matt Bodnar]

Yeah.

[Jamie George]

But you're training, like, negotiating. And I had one of my kids especially, was really good at it, too. I'm like, you know, I got to tell you, I really honor the fact that you're really good at this. Like, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking about changing my position. Like, yes, you can have ice cream, because you've lobbied really well. Right. But this is now the healthy way of relating. And up here in the green, everybody retains their autonomy. Everyone has the ability to choose. I honor your choice, you honor mine. We show up with one another and we create agreements.

[Matt Bodnar]

I want to dig into a piece of that, especially kind of the boundary element. How do you think about. Let's say you view yourself as an empowered chooser. You've set some boundaries, but you have somebody in your life who has, whether it's an authority figure or a parent or a boss or something that equivalent that either doesn't honor your boundaries or is just very constantly seems to be knocking you back down into the red triangle or victimhood, lack of agency, etc. How do you think about navigating that or dealing with that?

[Jamie George]

It's a great question.

[Matt Bodnar]

And they don't want to do the work.

[Jamie George]

Yeah, that's good. It's a great question. Everybody runs into it, so it's really good. First of all, nobody knocks you down into the red triangle.

[Matt Bodnar]

Ooh, okay. Knock yourself down.

[Jamie George]

There you go. Because if you did, then now you have no power. Right. I would be the victim. They knocked me into the red triangle. Nope. I chose to be a victim. Right. I chose. Now, again, outside of somebody violates you or whatever, you could argue that's the only moment that somebody, kind of somebody. Somebody did a thing to you, and you identify in that brief moment as the victim. But most of the time, it's, I'm choosing to go down, I'm sliding down there. I feel threatened, and I'm perpetrating. Or I want to stay in this victim place because it soothes me when we stay in the victim energy, it's really just a way of soothing. I want to blame someone else so

[Matt Bodnar]

I don't have to take ownership.

[Jamie George]

I don't want to take ownership. It's my way of avoiding taking responsibility and the rescuing when I'm down in the rescuer. It's really my codependency definition of codependency is if you're not okay. I'm not okay. So most rescuers are really uncomfortable with tension. It's like, oh, I got to fix this, so I'll fix you. And they're really good enablers. What's the difference? Isn't it good to serve people? Yep. Serve them, but don't be their savior. Care for them, but don't be the Messiah. Right. It's when we shift into the energy of. I'm now the rescuer. I'm the savior. I'm the one who's fixing it. Let me tell you, if you want to be the king, that's cool, but it's only a matter of time before you get crucified.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's a good way to put it. I like that.

[Jamie George]

Right. I mean, it's just how it works. So you understand. So serve them, but don't enable them. And that's a fine line. Sometimes the behavior is the exact same behavior, and the difference is the energy in which I'm showing up, the intention. Yep. And that's where I get to take ownership. What's my intention here right now? And I've lived a lot of life in the rescue room. Spent a lot of time there. I can. If we were interesting.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's a space that I'm, like, not. I'm much more of a perpetrator.

[Jamie George]

Ah, us. Good. So you're aware, like, I'm gonna hurt you before you hurt me, which is your ego defense mechanism. My ego defense mechanism for years was, I hope you'll like me, so I'll just come in and fix this. I'll rescue it. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was probably. Probably my fault. Sorry. And I thought I was, quote, taking responsibility, But a lot of times I didn't even believe I was wrong. But I was saying I'm sorry because I just wanted. I want peace. Right. And so I deviated from your question. But just a little more flavor in how we show up in that behavioral dynamic. If you have somebody who go, you. You can just. They're not interested in living in the green. Right. And they just keep crossing your boundary. Or they just keep coming with that drama energy. You keep evaluating what is the boundary? Right. So if it gets crossed, I have to go. Well, something then about that boundary was ineffective. So the extreme versions of this are. Well, I'll give you a less extreme version first. Here's an example of two people are in a. Let's take a husband and wife, and one person's a little more calm, and the Other person can be more aggressive. Let's say they go to perpetrator really fast and the person starts screaming, yelling. And you're like, well, one of my boundaries is it's not okay to scream and yell. Right. So let's say you say that, hey, this is not okay for you to scream and yell at me. Right. And so what we might try to do is go, stop yelling, stop screaming. It's never effective, though. Right. Because I've now climbed onto their side of the street and I'm attempting to manage their behavior, which I'm. I can't because I can connect. I can't control the other human.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

So instead of saying, stop yelling, stop screaming, stop talking to me like that. Because it doesn't work. You know, maybe. But most of the time when we're a limbic, it takes about 20 minutes for us to get back online. We're in that, like, primal, like, because, again, remember, the person's in fight, flight, or freeze. The boundary would be, hey, if you continue speaking to me in that way, I'm going to remove myself from the conversation. We can talk about this again in the morning over breakfast, or we can come back 20 minutes from now. But this doesn't work for me because I now can remove myself. That's an actual boundary. Now, if you run that all the way to the nth degree, it's the same thing in relationships. Someone says, well, I don't want to get divorced, but I'm experiencing abuse. And I'd go, I get that. So you have to keep asking yourself, let's say this person is violating this boundary for you. Is it a boundary for you or is it a preference?

[Matt Bodnar]

Would you say the difference between a boundary and a preference is whether you're willing to, I guess, walk away or draw a bright line over it?

[Jamie George]

Yes. Yeah. If it's a preference, I move to negotiation, and that person might just be a better negotiator. And so I never go to the restaurants I want to go to. Right. But I'm not going to. But it's not a boundary. I'm not leaving the marriage for it. They are super opinionated, and they rarely come my way, and I wish they would, but I'm just. I'm not able to negotiate on my behalf. But, you know, a boundary might be like, it's not okay to hit me, and you keep hitting me, and I'm still the empowered choose. Now, I could say, I'm going to stay in this relationship and let you hit me because I want my kids to Have a home where mom and dad are living in the same home. So that's your choice. Or you could say, hey, I'm leaving, or I'm getting a separation, or we're getting a therapist or, you know, or I'm calling a certain, you know, I'm calling a helpline. I'm looking for other possibilities that go, it's not okay to hit me. We're going to invite a third party and we're going to talk to your brother. It's your boundary. You are still the empowered chooser. You get to choose whether or not. And then you have extreme situations where someone goes, yeah, but what if I leave and they're violent and they come after me and I go, absolutely. So you get to make the choice. You're running a risk reward here. You can stay there or you could get help.

[Matt Bodnar]

It's a tough choice, isn't it?

[Jamie George]

But when you get to these extreme situations to remember I'm still the chooser though, because if I'm not, by the way, think about the alternative.

[Matt Bodnar]

The alternative is worse.

[Jamie George]

The alternative is I'm just the endless victim of your abuse, hoping someday that you might change.

[Matt Bodnar]

One of my favorite quotes is, hope is not a strategy.

[Jamie George]

That's so good. Gosh, so good. And that's kind of in the red triangle. That's as a victim especially. It's the only thing you got.

[Matt Bodnar]

I think that's a really, really important distinction, which is like, we're talking about some pretty heavy stuff here, right? I mean, being trapped in an abusive marriage and thinking about navigating some of these triangles or psychology dynamics that play into this. But you highlighted something that's really critical to understand, which is the distinction that making that choice between staying with a spouse who's abusing you and leaving and upturning your entire life and casting it all aside and creating a bunch of pain and headaches and whatever else is a very challenging choice. But it's still being able to make that decision is still better than being a victim.

[Jamie George]

That's it.

[Matt Bodnar]

And that's a really, really important thing to understand.

[Jamie George]

That's it. And if I stay in the green, I also get to ask myself some other questions. Okay, let's say I have someone who they go to perpetrator quickly. And by the way, let's start with some compassion. Hey, that human being who's abusive is abusive for a reason. They were abused. They have undealt with trauma, right? Like there's something going hurting people. Hurt people. Yeah, hurting people, hurt people. That's Right. Something's going on in them. So in ownership, I might ask myself, hey, what are the triggers that I hit? Hey, when I cut him off or cut her off and walk away and create an abandonment feeling, am I actually hitting a trigger? And that's actually not kind. So mine might not be physically abusive, but my just cutting that person off is another form quote of abuse in that. Or you could at least say, if you don't put it in the abuse category, it's really unkind and it's hurtful and it's not helpful. And it's actually adding fuel to the fire of their undealt with trauma unhealed. Right. So I can also take some ownership and go, hey, if I've got a person who is really hurting and their trigger is so fast, what are some things I might be able to do to participate in their healing? So I get part of ownership, just creates other possibilities. So I get to ask myself, when you're the victim, you only see through one lens, that the economy, the president, the husband, the boss, they're doing a thing to me. That's it. When I go up into the green, I create a world of possibilities as an empowered chooser that goes, this person has this proclivity. What am I going to do while I'm engaged?

[Matt Bodnar]

I really like that. Yeah. And I think again, it bears underscoring, like, just because the choices might be extremely challenging or difficult to navigate or very tough, painful choices to make, it's still better to operate from a place of agency than it is to operate from a place of hopelessness or victimhood where nothing will change and you'll continue to suffer or deal with this.

[Jamie George]

You are at the power of the other person. So the green is an invitation. Take your power back. And you're the one of the people who's talked to me about, hey, discomfort is actually one of the fundamental aspects that causes us to grow as a human being.

[Matt Bodnar]

I believe that.

[Jamie George]

Right. And I agree with you. I totally agree with you. So the thing that's most uncomfortable for me right now might be my greatest teacher. And so I need a pattern disrupt. When I'm with people in these scenarios, a lot of times I'll just go, here's a starting place, let's just look for a pattern disrupt. And I had a person say to me one time, hey, what if before that person gets amped, it's your mom, it's a spouse, it's whatever. But you can see something's coming in them, something is unsoothed. They're not regulated. Walk right up to them and give them a hug.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's crazy.

[Jamie George]

And before they hit that spot.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yeah.

[Jamie George]

And it's crazy how often, like, if everything de escalates and you just go, hey, I can just tell something. That's really. I can tell something's really messing with you. I can. It sounds like you're hurting. You give them a hug and bam. And it never went there. Because they need. You're participating in their healing in that moment. Right. That's really hard to do sometimes when you. Especially if there's a better pattern or whatever else. But that's just a picture of grace. You know, my red triangle way of being would be like, well, you don't deserve this because I know what you've done in the past. Or you. Or I can tell you really angry right now. And. And it's undeserved. And the green triangle is like, deserved, undeserved, fair. Those are not. I'm not working from that mentality.

[Matt Bodnar]

Doesn't matter.

[Jamie George]

I'm an empowered. Choose what do I want to do right now? And perhaps me just walking up and loving you might diffuse the situation.

[Matt Bodnar]

I really like that. The framework that whether something is justified or deserved or not is irrelevant if you're trying to solve it. In a lot of cases, that's it. And I see people so frequently get caught up in that. It's like, hey, well, it shouldn't be that way. Okay. Doesn't matter. We still need to solve it. And figuring out why it should or shouldn't be that way doesn't solve it.

[Jamie George]

That's it. That's it. It's really well said, Matt. And shouldn't misses the most important aspect of whatever the problem is. And that's that whether it should be or shouldn't be. To your point. It is.

[Matt Bodnar]

Exactly.

[Jamie George]

So you're shifting the focus from your current experience with reality.

[Matt Bodnar]

We talked in the pre show or in our other conversation around. Josh Waitzkin has this concept and art of learning where he talks about being frozen in what was. And he tells a story about this lady crossing the street getting hit by a bus because she was not paying attention. She was frozen in something else that was happening. And if we get frozen in the past, we can't engage with what's actually happening right now.

[Jamie George]

That's it.

[Matt Bodnar]

And should can easily trap you there in that place.

[Jamie George]

Yep. Because we talked about this. Should is always someone else's voice.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

And should is interfering with your intuition. This is what is. And so get honest with what is right here, right now, and be attentive to it.

[Matt Bodnar]

What do you think stops people from getting honest with what is happening right now?

[Jamie George]

The two dominant energies are fear and shame. Fear is. I don't like this, but I'm comfortable with it, and I don't want to do what's uncomfortable. It's kind of the quintessential. I'm in a cage and the door's unlocked, but I'm staying in the cage because at least I'm comfortable.

[Matt Bodnar]

I know. Yeah, I know. The cage.

[Jamie George]

Yeah. Okay. And there's an old experiment there where they put a lion or a cheetah.

[Matt Bodnar]

An elephant. Staking the elephant.

[Jamie George]

Yeah, Staking the elephant. Same thing, right?

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

And you just get conditioned to say, I don't like this, but it's so much of my normal. I'm just going to stay here. And by the way, I would say to someone if they're like, well, I know that's kind of me. There's no shame. Your ego is looking for comfort, control, and approval. That's where the ego lives. Those are three dominant energies of the ego. Comfort, control, which is perceived because I'm never in control, of course. Right. But I think I'm. I think I'm in control and then approval, and I'm exporting my authority.

[Matt Bodnar]

What do you mean by that?

[Jamie George]

Well, I'm not in the green. I'm down in the red, hoping someone out there will say, I'm okay.

[Matt Bodnar]

Okay.

[Jamie George]

I heard two podcasts recently, and Russell Brand and John Mayer, and they were on different podcasts. It was just randomly, the same week I was listening, and they were asked a very similar question. What would you go back and tell your younger self? And they both responded with a similar answer. I was like, oh, this is wild. And the answer was something like, I'd go back and tell my younger self, hey, you're okay. Because when we're young, we're so looking for some outside validation. You know, when you're a teenager, you want to connect with a tribe. You're looking for something, you know, dance or football or theater, debate. Right. I'm in a tribe. Right. So, Elise. Okay. And it's natural. It's part of your developmental way of growing up, but becoming an adult. David Rico. And if you've read any of his stuff, he's awesome. I haven't how to be an adult. But becoming an adult is then going, I don't need exterior validation anymore. I am okay. It's that quintessential I am statement. No, I am Just, I am. I'm present. I am an aspect of the divine. I'm here, and I'm good. Just right here. This is me. And I don't have to have some exterior authority figure, religious system, family system or whatever tell me I'm okay. And so. But that's a lot of our quest. The ego is just looking for someone else to say you're okay. And a lot of us are making decisions, thinking about sometimes not even a real person. It's a straw man that we have in our head of what? Yeah, but if I do that, if I go online and if I do a social media thing, what will they think of me? Right. Right. And one of my clients is in American Idol right now, and she's in the thick of it, and we did a coaching call, and it's like, all the stuff is up. And, you know, like, do I even stay with this? Do I quit? I mean, this is right at the point where America votes you in or out, and it's all the approval stuff. And she's awesome, and she' super coachable. She's sweetheart. And. And I. I said, look, you're struggling with approval, and you signed up for American Idol. I mean, like. I mean, like, we. And I'm. And I'm saying, like, this is beautiful. Something, some subconscious thing in you was like, well, what would be, like, the hardest thing to. Let's have all of the world. True.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie George]

Proof of me or not. Totally.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yeah.

[Jamie George]

I said, right. So I'm like, this. This is beautiful. You want to talk about exposure therapy? You have thrown yourself in. So we did a little thing on do you want to be an adult or do you want to be a kid? And so I just said, how about this? So her little hook was put away. Childish things. She has to swallow. I use this with my clients. A lot of swallow is a good pattern. Disrupt swallow. And right before you take the stage, you go, I'm an adult. I'm an empowered adult, and I'm not a child. And so take that swallow, remember who you are, and step up and grip it and rip it. Like, I mean, just step into that with that confidence, being an adult, and go up to that mic and just sing, and we'll see how it goes. But, I mean, that's all of us. And that was the thing I reminded her of. Like, everybody else on that stage is dealing with the same insecurities 100%. Right. It's all of us. That's our ego just trying to stay alive. So I'm reminding My clients all the time, if anybody's listening to this and they go, oh, gosh, I'm stuck, or I know I've been a victim, or I know I've been a perpetrator, I just want to remind them there's no shame. So Brene Brown, she does this better than anybody, right?

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

Shame goes after identity. It says, you're a loser, you're an idiot, you're no good. Guilt. We'll take guilt. We don't mind guilt. Guilt says, ooh, yuck. I don't like that behavior. That's not really reflective of who I am. I want to change it. It's kind of like a top level energy guilt. Like, oh, yeah. So I shift to take a new action, and I can kind of let go of guilt. Right? Confession leads to salv, right? I let go of it. Shame buries us. I mean, it rubs our noses in it. It's drowning, right? Because it's saying, you're a bad person, you're not worth anything. Usually hooks us to some lie that we took, some wound in our childhood, some lie that got wedged in. It's usually hooked there. I do a process with my clients using kind of a modified genogram where we go back into their story and you can find usually somewhere a lie got caught. And shame comes up and it tells you, I'm not good enough. I'm not perfect, I'm not worth it, I'm not performing the way I should, whatever the things. And so I'm just reminding him all the time, no, no, no, no. Shame. Do you have an ego? Just honor your ego. It's keeping you alive. If you'd like to not suffer, well, let's go live in the green.

[Matt Bodnar]

I want to unpack shame because I think it's a fascinating topic. But before we do, you hit on this concept earlier too. This idea of like. Like, I'm not gonna. I'll paraphrase how you said it, but you basically said, I'm not gonna tell you that you should do this, but if you wanna reduce your suffering, here's how. And I just really like that framing of, like, it's more of an invitation or an option versus, hey, you need to do these five things if you wanna reduce, you know, reduce your suffering. It's like, hey, you can keep doing that thing.

[Jamie George]

Yes.

[Matt Bodnar]

And maybe that's your journey.

[Jamie George]

Right?

[Matt Bodnar]

Like, maybe that's hearkening back to Alan Watts we were talking about before. Like, maybe that's the trip that you're on is like just massive Suffering. Right. And. But it's. If you don't want to experience that, like there are modalities and things you can do that are different than that.

[Jamie George]

That's it. Right. And the reason is. Let's go back to the triangles because I believe you're an empowered chooser. If I tell you I. Let's say. And this would be tempting as a coach sometimes. Oh, my gosh, Dear God. We talked about this three times, right? And I get a little intense, like, oh, my gosh, are you freaking kidding me? Stop doing the thing right now. By the way. I might employ that every now and then as kind of a pattern disrupt to jolt them out of an ego place where they're stuck. But generally speaking, what I'm doing is. I have to check if I'm doing that. It is absolutely just a mechanism for me as a tool right there in the moment, what I have to check in with. Because if I have a pattern of doing it, I'm probably just a rescuer. You're suffering. I don't like that you're suffering. I want you to stop suffering. So I'm going to keep telling you to change. And by the way, a lot of times I'm telling you to change because I'm telling you I've stopped inviting you. I'm telling you, and I'm usually telling you to change based on how I think you should be. Now, that's my enneagram type. That's my Myers Briggs type. I grew up in the north or the South. I'm in my. It's my cultural bias. It's whether I lived in the west or the East. It could be a religious bias. Think about the moment I stop inviting and I move to telling. I stuck you in my paradigm for living of which no one fits exactly someone else's paradigm for living.

[Matt Bodnar]

Very true.

[Jamie George]

So maybe stop telling people how to live and invite them into opportunity.

[Matt Bodnar]

I love that frame. All right. I want to come back to shame for a minute. So tell me more about how people interact with shame. And if shame is kind of a dominant force that drives you, how do you think about opportunities to interact with it in a more healthy way?

[Jamie George]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Helpful and healthy. I think that shame and fear, and I suppose probably when they're knotted together, that it might be the darkest energy that's on the planet. It is. When you are in shame, you've completely forgotten who you are. And for me, who you are is you're an aspect of the divine. So you are a child of God. There's this old 70s. I mean, I don't know if it's like, 1970. There's old, old movie called. I don't even remember the name of it, Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Something like this. Okay? It's the story of Francis of Assisi. It looks like an independent film made in 1970. That's the vibe, okay? So it's just. So. It's a little cheesy, you know, but somebody I had mold two or three people told me to watch it. I'm like, okay, interesting. So. So I'm watching it, and it's a little cheesy. I'm like, okay. Story of St. Francis. Well, lo and behold, right toward the end of the film, Francis is a young man who grows up with all this wealth, and eventually it messes with him. So eventually, he sheds all his wealth and he's a vow of poverty, and he's going to live with the poor and the lepers and the whole thing. He has a little church, but then religious people burn his little church down. And he has this incredible, beautiful naivete. St. Francis is known for communicating with the animals and the birds. There's just this sweetness about who he is, right? And so in the story, he says he's gonna go to Rome to talk to the Pope because he just doesn't understand why certain things are the way they are. And everybody's like, you think you're gonna get an audience with the Pope? So, sure enough, he goes to Rome, and this is apparently a true story because this is kind of the story of St. Francis. So he goes to the Pope. I can't remember the Pope's name right now, but he goes to Pope. Well, lo and behold, I'm watching this movie, and the Pope is Alec Guinness. So this cheesy little film. And here comes Obi Wan Kenobi.

[Matt Bodnar]

That's amazing.

[Jamie George]

Yes. I'm like, oh, suddenly the film got better immediately. So there's interaction in everybody in Rome. I don't know if it's St. Paul's or St. Peter's Cathedral, I don't know. But he's going to see the Pope, and everybody is like, what are you doing here? There's all this massive judgment, and nobody thinks he's going to get. But somehow the Pope takes an audience with him, and he has this interaction with the Pope, and he's like, what is the deal with all this wealth and all this stuff? And what do you. God said there's birds of the air, don't have a place for their head. Why don't we just live in simplicity. He's asking these difficulties, difficult questions.

[Matt Bodnar]

Yep.

[Jamie George]

And I think everybody's expecting the Pope to throw him out. And the Pope gets up off the throne or seat, whatever, his big chariot, and he comes down the stairs, St. Francis level, and then he either kisses his hand or his feet, and, like, everybody's in shock. And I'm telling you this long story for a reason, because this quote is worth it. He looks at him and he says, you know, we have spent so much time talking about original sin that we forgot about original affection. We forgot about original blessing that you were good before you were bad. And it's like this moment of. Because there are some cultures that want to start with, you're a sinner, you're bad, you're wrong. You know, your humanity is bad unto itself, your flesh is bad. And if you start with a frame that's you're bad, then you're always living in this place of, well, I guess I'm not worthy enough. And there was this lovely moment, I think, to just go, wait, wait, wait, hold on a second. If you're an aspect of the divine, you're this light, you know, this energetic thing on the planet, then there's something beautiful about who you are. So how about start with the good? And I don't. Again, my frame is, there's no judgment whatsoever. And it's funny, even Jesus teachings, there is no condemnation. Jesus repeatedly trying to remind people this, by the way, there is no condemnation anymore. Love actually rules the day. So if you can start with, I'm good now. I have an ego that's going to cause me to act out. And I could kill someone. There could be an act of violence. There are consequences that come with acting out. In my ego, I could lose a relationship that matters to me. It's not because I'm a bad person, is because my ego is trying to stay alive. And that ego is acting out. And I'm taking the journey of learning how to reign that ego in and live into my higher self, live into that divine in me, align with that higher part of me. So that's the work I do with people. And shame just wants to tell you, you're bad, you're worthless, you're whatever. And I think it's why it's the darkest energy. I had asked you between these three things. I asked you this when you were a guest on my podcast. Who am I, Why am I here, and what do I want? I asked of those three what seemed most fundamental to you, and you said, to me, I think probably identity, I don't know who I am. Right. You said, I think the other flows from that. And it would be the same. If my identity is shameful and bad, I'm going to have trouble with a sense of purpose, and I'm going to have trouble with getting clear about what I want because I'm a horrible person. Shame wants to bury you, crush you. Steven Pressfield, in his book the War of Art, says, resistance is not out to maim you or wound you. You, resistance is out to crush your soul. And every time you want to bring a creative act into being, that resistance is coming your way. And it usually is in the form of fear or shame. Perfect love casts out fear. If you can step into the fact that, hey, you are loved. Let's just start with, for some reason, you exist. Maybe just start with if you're a philosophical type, just start with, for some reason you're on the planet, just start there. Which tells me you have some kind of value. You're here, Work from there. You have great value. You're not just lovable, but you're likable. And now go take an action. Go take a step, even if you're not sure what it is. You and I have talked about this. Even if you're not sure what it is, act in faith. Take a step, and you will discover who you are as you go. There's another thing you said to me. I'm referencing a bunch from when we were together, but you said, I don't know. Will I ever really know who I totally am? Will I ever really know what my purpose is? Maybe that's a lifetime of discovery. I'm kind of winnowing it down, and I love that. So there's no shame. Take that step into the darkness that you don't know what it is, and you'll discover who you are as you go. That's called faith. It's the courage in the midst of fear. And remember that while you have this struggle, remember there's a goodness in you that's really powerful.

[Matt Bodnar]

And I feel like we could talk for hours and hours about this stuff, but we're running out of time, sadly. So for somebody who wants to take some of the themes and ideas, could be anything we talked about today and put that into practice in some form or fashion in their life. What would be an action step or a piece of homework you would give them to implement something we've talked about?

[Jamie George]

Yeah. I've never said this on a podcast before, but maybe it's on my mic, because I just did it with a client recently. All of humanity, like, all of our problems, boil down to one thing. Every single problem you have with any relationship with anybody on the planet comes down to one thing. Resentment. Somebody did not live up to your expectations or they broke agreements. So how do I release? If I'm an empowered chooser, I don't actually have to hold on to that energy. So I just recently. A couple different clients. But this is a great exercise. Sit down and list your resentments, every single. And remember, it's just energy, right? Picture it like strands of energy. I have this trapped energy in me. Write down every resentment you can think of.

[Matt Bodnar]

I think I'm gonna have a long list.

[Jamie George]

And by the way, keep in mind, it's not doing anything to the other person, right? Like, they're probably sleeping fine at night. They might not even remember the thing. Didn't even know it impacted you that way. Like, you have no right because you can't control the other human being. Right? But I can control me. And resentment's a dark energy that gets stuck in me. So let's release that energy by listing them off. So Kinlan's law. 85% of the problem solved the moment you write it down.

[Matt Bodnar]

Oh, I love that. I've never heard it, but that's awesome.

[Jamie George]

Yeah.

[Matt Bodnar]

Big fan of journaling.

[Jamie George]

Okay. So the moment you write it down, you're already going to find an energetic shift just because you wrote it down.

[Matt Bodnar]

I love that.

[Jamie George]

Write it down. And notice if the moment you wrote it down, it actually didn't leave you. So when you write it down, you might be like, oh, yeah, I don't want to hold on to that. I'm good. And it might just like, kind of like wind blowing a sheet of paper. Like, it might be like a wisp. Like, oh, okay, that's gone. Now, other ones, you might be like, no, no, no, that's definitely right there. And I got to do some work. What's my work? So here's your work out loud. Now, we're doing some neural. Neural pathway here. We're going to use my speech, and I'm using my auditory. And I'm also engaging my writing. So I'm going to accelerate my shifting and changing out loud. I'm going to say to whatever that person is, the president, my father, my coach, my teacher, the schoolmate, whatever person I have resentment with, so. And so I forgive you, I release you, and I release me.

[Matt Bodnar]

Ooh, I like that last part.

[Jamie George]

And my hope is that you will live into the light of who you are and I send you light and love. And then I repeat it and I say it again and I say it again and I say it again and I say it again until that resentment is gone. I've had clients who are like I did. It took me a day. I've had clients, hey, it took me a week, like. And you just every morning you get up and keep in mind, I'm letting this go from me. This is just stuck energy. And when you get through that list and there are no more resentments now the next day happens and you might, but you start to clear that out, you will feel like you can fly. It's wild.

[Matt Bodnar]

I love it. That's going on my to do list for sure. I got to listen back to the recording and get the phrasing of that, but I love it. Well, Jamie, this has been an incredible conversation for folks who want to find you and your work online. What's the best place for them to do that?

[Jamie George]

Probably the easiest, just our website, jamiegeorge.com or social media. It's JamieGeorgeCoach. TikTok's the place. I do a lot of actual coaching on there.

[Matt Bodnar]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Jamie George]

We do TikTok lives and that sort of thing. So yeah, that'd be a great place to come hang out with us.

[Matt Bodnar]

Well, Jamie, thank you so much for coming on the show for this fascinating conversation and we may have to do it again. We got so much stuff to cover. We just scraped the very beginning of the surface.

[Jamie George]

Well, thank you, Matt. It's been a pleasure.

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